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maybe im so wrong and all i said is coz im so impressed by and i like the count dooku character very much. i just want him to be good

Dooku is in complete cahoots with Sidious. He IS working for him, not against him in Episode II. He definitely is making the the galaxy believe he is a good guy. He tries to BS Obi-Wan and Padme with it.

"Join me Obi-Wan and together we can destroy the Sith"

Great line already!

Unless there is a drastic change in Star Wars morality, Dooku will be 100% evil.

Agreed.

Evil is good!

*In Mr. Burns voice*

Excellent.

There are some rumors that Dooku is Qui-Gon's teacher. How can that be? Qui-Gon was in his 60's in TPM )and AOTC is ten years later). Dooku would have to be at least 20 years older than Qui-Gon to teach him. That would mean that Dooku is in his 90's and still fight extremely well with a lightsaber!? Yeah, right! Qui-Gon was trouble because he was old, which means that Dooku should've had even more trouble.

QGJ isn't 60 in TPM, I thought...

Regardless, there is no reason why an aged man cannot fight well; the idea that age makes you a bad swordfighter is a complete myth, as has already been well-discussed.

I know that. I study Budo Taijutsu and Kenjutsu. I'm saying that because in the novelization of TPM it stated that QGJ's age was hindering him against DM. When I saw the movie, it didn't look like QGJ was tiring . . . DM just got a lucky hit.

If QGJ wasn't in his 60's in TPM . . . than how old was he?

Moral of the story: Don't trust the novels!

How old is Qui-Gon Jinn in The Phantom Menace?

The screenplay does indeed list him as being in his sixties

Odd, I would think of him being 45 or somethin around there.

If he was around 60, he's the Force to keep his hair from greying.

I ment "he's used the Force to keep his hair from greying."

It wasn't a lucky strike from DM!!

QGJ made an error with a hard overhead blow, wich Maul blocked and with a fast movement he knocked QGJ off and hit him in the stomach

What Qui-Gon appeared to do to me was use the same move twice. Seems an odd mistake to make. We'd need to speak to Nick Gillard to get at the logic behind it.

Well DM got killed because he got stupid and he paid for his stupidity . . . with his life.

Yes, a typical moralistic end for a bad guy- he had all the skill he could ever need but his arrogance killed him.

well, QGJ was a tad slow for the defence, with Maul using speed

Obi-Wan was too slow also. Maul handled him rather easily.

QGJ's speed had absolutely nothing to do with it. He was not a fast fighter. It was bad positioning.

oh is that the reason why Maul was parted at the waist

Maul defeated himself. All he had to do was reach down and cut down Obi-Wan. Instead he had to be arrogant and taunt him, which cost him his life. If you think Obi-Wan would have beaten him, you are crazy. Maul was much more powerful than Obi-Wan.

He did beat him

He beat himself.

well he lost to Obi Wan what ever way he got beaten.

Nick Gillard clearly made Obi-Wan's fighting faulty in TPM; I expect him to be much improved in AOTC.

What are you talking about?

Other than repeating myself, what do you expect me to say? Obi-Wan's fighting style in TPM was full of errors, presumably to represent his inexperience.

Obi wan was not yet fully skilled Jedi at the time of the fight with Maul, which he beat by the way. This flick he has more experience as a Jedi Knight

What flaws did he have? He was made a Jedi knight because of those flaws.

Well, Obi-Wan's continual reliance on pointless (and dangerous) whirls and twists of his sabre were classic examples of displaced aggression, often an end to many a swordfighter.

I don't believe that is why they made him a Knight, though...

If you think twirls are flaws, then I guess every Jedi in AOTC are unskilled. You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

dont need fancy stuff to settle a fight, look at the duels between Luke and Vader not too much fancy stuff there

You are talking about a Jedi who is now basicly a battledroid with Force Powers and a poorly trained semi Jedi. Eventually you will come to realize what is actually going on.


Let me just tell you that Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan all twirl their sabers in AOTC.

oh pleas enlighten me

Helmet, I am willing to state that I know FAR more about swordfighting than you do. You clearly haven't got the FIRST clue about how any of these things work at all.

Nick Gillard, on the other hand, knows exactly what he is doing. Qui-Gon and Maul fight with a disciplined style all the way through that fight. But Obi-Wan fights, though with great speed and vigour, with a loose, undisciplined and completely wasteful style. This is deliberate.

The best example is the bit where they come through the foorweay after Maul uses the droid head to open it as he walks backwards. Maul is assailed by one side. He fends off Qui-Gon, to our right. Obi-Wan has a clear shot at Maul's side, but instead of a swipe he begins a TWIRL- a useless, pathetic twirl that leaves him with no guard at all. Maul contemptuously kicks him in the head.

Watch it frame by frame and watch Obi-Wan begin his twirl. That is the miatake of a novice.

Helmet, I didn't mean that anyone who ever twirls is a bad fighter. Twirling as a stylistic point is throughly acceptable and handy in some circumstances. But it is POINTLESS twirling- or more to the point, DANGEROUS twirling- that Obi-Wan displays; like I say, the dispalced agression of a novice.

a novice who beat Maul

You don't know more about it than Nick Gillard, and I will go on what he thinks is right. And in case you didn't know, this is a movie.

do you know it is a movie, Mr getting all the figures by Friday

No, I DON'T know more about it than Nick Gillard. Did I ever say I did? He KNOWS what he is doing. He puts Obi-Wan's novice moves in there on PURPOSE. It's clear to anyone who knows a thing about swordfighting.

And of course Obi-Wan beat Mual in the end- he was the hero! But he didn't beat him in a straight fight.

And so what if it is a movie? Nick Gillard is using real-world fighting techniques that can be subjected to real-world analysis.

So I guess Mace is a novice swordsman because he twirls his saber? I guess since Anakin twirls his saber, that must mean he really isn't the second best swordsman in the Jedi order. Hmmmmm, do you finally get it, that Jedi twirl their sabers? It doesn't mean they are novice. You really are clueless.

Helmet, if you continue to post without properly readoing what others have said then I will issue you with a formal warning. Please read my post a few before this one which explains that twirling issue.

they twirl cause it is fancy, it has no purpose in a fight. It is just when a boxer start showboating, it looks cool but it leads them vulnerable

Bottom line, Obi-Wan wasn't a novice. I don't care if you show me a Kendo book. This isn't the real world, that is why it is science fiction. The twirling is in there because it looks cool and that's it.

They SHOULD keep the twirling. What exactly is your problem here? My whole point is that Obi-Wan twirled TOO MUCH- and at a STUPID time. A mistake Darth Maul- who does a ton of stylish twirls- would NOT have made. His actual offensive blows are utterly efficient.

And again, it does not matter that this is sci-fi- the swordfighting is firmly grounded in reality. Nick Gillard will not have these people doing anything pointlessd unless he is trying to show they are indisciplined.

Him twirling had nothing to do with him falling into that pit.

Directly, no. But it is indicative of what was wrong with Obi-Wan in that fight. Plenty of skill and speed but no discipline. That's what got him in the pit.

I guess he and the rest of the Jedi are novices.


Because they all do it.

Gee, we are just going around in circles here...

NO THEY DO NOT! No-one other than Obi-Wan twirled his sabre at a stupid time, and I fully expect Windu et all to not make stupid mistakes like that either.

As Gillard explains, every move in his fight sequences has everyone involved at a 'check point'. If anyone twirls badly in a duel, there would not BE a check point because he would be beaten! If Maul wasn't still fighting Qui-Gon in TPM Obi-Wan would have been killed at that point.

Oh Please, give me a break.

Don't blame me just because you do not know what you are talking about.

You thinking Obi-Wan was a novice in TPM is quite laughable.

Oh really? Despite the fact that he WAS a novice? Despite the fact that his flawed fighting style was put there on purpose because he was a young and reckless apprentice? Oh yeah, REALLY laughable!

What would have been stupid would have been if Obi-Wan was already a master swordfighter despite not even being a Knight yet.

They usually don't make novices Jedi Knights the day after, and entrust them with the chosen one.

There is no denying that Obi-Wan is a remarkable man but the whole point is that he was too reckless in TPM (as part of continuity with ESB). His fighting style reflected that.

His style also had to contrast with Qui-Gon'sor the fight would have been less interesting.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?

Yes, I do. Again, do not blame me if you are too dense to understand.

All Jedi have different styles. It has nothing to do with what you said.

Put it this way, Qui-Gon was known as one of the best swordsman in the Order, afterall he was trained by Dooku.

Didn't Obi-Wan last longer? You're right he must be a novice.

Are you seriously suggesting that Obi-Wan was better than Qui-Gon? THAT is laughable.

The point is that Maul was better than both of them. One-on-one, he would kill either of them. His whole stategy was to seperate them and fight them one at a time. It just happen to be Qui-Gon he faced alone first.

He beat Obi-Wan one-on-one FAR quicker than he beat Qui-Gon.

As for your weird comment about styles... In a two-on-one fight, it will look extrmely dull unless the pair have a contrasting style, and the easiest contrast is furious versus careful. That was the REASONING behind the different styles.

The same applies to the AOTC fight.

Just because Obi-Wan lives longer doesn't make him any better than Qui-Gon. It just means that Qui-Gon let his defenses slip for a split second. Obi-Wan fought much better because of his master's death. You know he had a little of the dark-side in him at that point. The he calmed himself down and was able to focus more of the force on to the duel and he won.

the result is the same whoever was the better fighter, Obi wan beat Maul in the end.

Straight, informative, and to the point.

I like it finti.

I'm still bothered about that thing about QGJ, why an older man cannot be a good fighter. I agree with Ush that an older man can in fact be a good fighter. But my main problem is with Lucas' lines: he commented on the OT that all we saw of the Jedi were "old men and cripples" and an apprentice at work. According to calculation OB1 in ANH wasn't much older than QGJ in TPM. So does "lack of exercise" due to living in a desert explain this? There's nothing we know that OB1 did not keep in shape.

lack of exercise gets everybody rusty

Yes, but the question is: did he have a lack of excercise?

Obi-Wan's lesser abilities in ANH aren't caused by age, but by injuries. The same with Vader. By the way Qui-Gon was a great swordsman.

What injuries? I thought it was because he had neglected his skills.

He is a battered man by the time of ANH. If age was the reason, Dooku would be weak.

Do you really think he will come out of all this uninjured? In AOTC, he takes a saber directly though the thigh, which would go right through the Femur. And a shoulder injury. If you think he goes through the Clone Wars without a scar, you are crazy.


Neglected his skills? That's a good one.

Ah! It's really both that effect. The age and the injuries.

Dooku is much older than Obi-Wan in ANH, and that doesn't stop him from easily handling 2 of the Jedi's most highly skilled swordsman.

I don't buy the age factor. Not to mention Yoda is over 800 years old.

Well Yoda doesnt't have anything to do with this. But anyway Dooku is in a very good shape, if you consider he's about 80. Then maybe Obi-Wan isn't in that good shape. Ofcource age matters. So do the injuries.

So now it's that Obi-Wan wasn't in good shape. Anything else? Maybe he had skin cancer from the twin suns.

Direct quote from ANH

"Your powers are weak, old man... You should not have come back."

Obi-Wan HAD neglected his skills.

If Obi-Wan's leg injury in AOTC was really a long-term problem, he would already be impaired by the time of Episode III, which I very much doubt. We have no reason to think he is suffering from injury by ANH.

And GL would have SAID that was the reason, if it was.

Dooku basicly says that to him in AOTC also. If you think the AOTC injuries are all he gets you are dum$%^ than you sound.


Vader is just taunting Obi-Wan.

Why the hell does that make me a dumb anything? What you are saying is purely speculation with no basis whatsoever.

While Vader was indeed taunting Obi-Wan, that is not the point. You don't just put lines like that in the movie for no reason.

And as George Lucas has made clear that Obi-Wan was past his prime- making NO mention of injuries whatsoever- I am pretty confident saying that injury has nothing to do with it, while you have no such evidence at all.

Believe what you want, but you'll see in the end that his age and lack of practice aren't the reasons for his lack of mobility.

Despite Lucas suggesting that it was?

He never did suggest that. Tell me where I can find that non existent dribble.

Lucas said that in the OT we only saw an untrained boy, an old man and a half-man-half-cyborg cripple.

He was explaining how the sabre fighting in TPM would be like the REAL Jedi fighting style.

He's old? Really? Where does it say that it is the reason for his lack of mobility. Isn't it odd that we see an old man in AOTC, who obviously has no problem moving around?

That quote doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

Good try though.

We've already been through this. My interpretation is that Obi-Wan has not kept his powers and skills into his old age.

What GL certainly did not say was that Ob-Wan was less good because of earlier wounds.

Lucas hasn't said anything about it. But it's obvious that age doesn't matter since Ki-Adi Mundi, Dooku and many other old men have outstanding force powers. The don't just lose their powers.

Read the SW Insider article with the Silas Carson interview. In case you didn't know he is Ki-Adi. He said he looks old but when in battle he has just as much power and skill, if not more than the much younger Jedi. You will forget what you've said when you see many old men with exceptional skills.

By the way that is the SW Insider with Mace on the cover.

But all these people were still highly active Jedi. Obi-Wan had retired and done virtually nothing for two decades. Hence his powers being weak.

You just don't understand. You don't lose something, that isn't physical, by not working out. Do you think Yoda ran laps and hit the weight room every day. The guy needs a cane to walk, but when needed to is the quickest and most skilled swordsman in the galaxy.


If you just think and read instead of type, you would understand.

How do you know he was on Tatooine every day sitting in his hutt for the last 30 years of his life. Do you think he never hads contact with Yoda?

He is only 36 at the end of Episode III. You think he just sat there twiddling his thumbs for 30 years. I think he knows what he has to do to keep his skills sharp, unless of course injuries prevent him from doing so.

I think and read a hell of a lot more than you do, to judge by your moronic posts. Did I ever say he had to physically work out? His powers were weak because of his lack of mental practice.

Obi-Wan was a disilluioned, broken man. If he really WAS so powerful still, why does he say that he is getting too old for this sort of thing?

The fact remains, in any case, that he WAS impaired in ANH, and saying that this is because of injury is far more ridiculous than saying it was because he was out of practice.

And it is 20 years, not 30. Perhaps YOU should think a little more, unless you think Luke was a 30 year old.

Typo, ************.

Yeah he was mentally worn out. Great reason.



OFFICIAL WARNING: HELMET, MIND YOUR LANGUAGE!!! NO NEED TO BE OFFENSIVE LIKE THAT! - queeq

Well, you typoed it twice, so it looked like an error to me.

Being mentally worn out is a VERY good reason, especially for a broken, disillusioned man.

He's not the only one that's disillusioned

I'm sure.

You should.

Try acting civilised and mature, gentlemen. And that goes double for you, Helmet. Mind the language and attitude towards your fellow posters.

My prblem with the whole issue is basically OB1's age in ANH.... I think he was originally imagined to be a lot older than in his erly sixties. And obviously, he wasn't as weak as Vader imgained him to be because he couldn't beat him.

And really, did GL think Vader up in ANH as a cripple???? Or just as a very well designed bad guy?
For me, I think GL is trying to sweet talk things he later changed his mind about.

I'm pretty sure he was meant to be slow and crippled, yes. And I don't think Obi-Wan was meant to be much older than Guiness himself.

Hmmmm....

didn't OB1 said in a new hope that he WAS a jedi knight?

I think that it means something. Maybe the jedis can "quit" not just the order but the powers, or the practice. And THIS can make him a weak fighter, instead of his age or his injuries...
On second thought, the injuries really doesn't matter. We are speaking about a galaxy far away were the technologie do miracles...

I just think he uses the past tense thing to tell Luke about what he was during the clone wars

Obi-Wan is only ever a Jedi Knight. And he isn't a weak fighter because of it. You will be amazed how awesome he is in the arena.

Knight or otherwise, he was a legend, of course. I don't think anyone was meant to be in any doubt of Obi-Wan's immense skill and talent.

He would have become a Jedi Master. There is no doubt abou that. Obi-Wan is the only Jedi who fights every Sith Apprentice.

well he faught Maul, will be fighting Dooku and possible Anakin(maybe not a sith apprentice at that time) at least as Vader. So I think Helmet is pretty much right on this one

he is pretty much in the right track. never said he was not.

oh this is not a kind of denial

why is it not?

ever heard of irony?

irony? mm no.
only on my swiss swatch.

The only Apprentices in the saga are Maul, Dooku, and Anakin/Vader.

Has it been confirmed that Count Dooku is Darth Tyranus?

Yes:


http://www.figures.com/archives/images/62/40562.jpg

My theory is that Dooku actually IS trying to do what is best for the galaxy. His separatist movement is very real and he is convinced that the Republic is too corrupt to work ever again.

I think Dooku underestimates Palpatine, thinking that he can sort of be in league with him, but dispose of him when needed. Dooku is most certainly among the most powerful Jedi ever, and he thinks that with his powers (and swordsmanship), he can easily dispatch Palpatine when the time comes.

Unfortunately, I believe that he will find the Emperor too powerful, and he will be destroyed by the Emperor, with the help of Anakin, in Episode III.

The reason for this theory is that he tells Obi Wan the truth about a dark lord of the Sith running the republic. Dooku all but gives the name of Palpatine to Obi Wan, and of course he wants Obi Wan to help him destroy the Sith Lord.

Dooku's intentions were probably good at first, but as he used the dark side more and more he became dependent upon it, and thus even if he did destroy Palpatine, he would become a tyrant himself.

I cannot think of any other reason that Dooku would tell Obi Wan about Palpatine being a Sith Lord. It's unfortunate that he never actually gives Obi Wan a name, for then Yoda could probably focus his efforts at discerning Palpatine's true intentions. But in the end, Yoda will discover Palpatine's true identity too late, and will be powerless to stop him.

bantha fodder has explained in a better way my theory. im glad someone thinks like me or very close to what i believe.
i do believe in dooku thinking he can use palpatine.
and i find that theory of anakin destroying him quite interesting and very probable.

The same reason Vader told Luke they could rule the galaxy as father and son. Dooku knows he can't take out Sidious, he is completely his Apprentice, and not plotting against him in AOTC.

Yes, it's just typical bad guy politics. Obi-Wan would make a fine apprentice for Dooku; he's just playing on Obi-Wan's hatred for the Sith as his route to pull Obi-Wan onto his side.

I am still sure that Dooku is 100% bad.

all i'll say is that so far it looks like christopher lee is playing the same role twice, dooku and saruman. one of a group of powerful heroes who though he has good intentions falls prey to the lure of power and creates his own army and makes a bargain with the ultimate villain with the intent of ursuping his throne.

Well, agree with Bantha Fodder and Jedi Fernando. In the spoilers, he left the Order because he was disgusted with the way the Jedi willingly died for a dying Republic (and, maybe, that his apprentice, Qui-Gon, was doing just that when he died). Then he just traveled along, tampered a little with the Dark-side, met Palpy, and BAM! he's a Sith lord and he didn't want to be one in the first place. I believe he's mostly bad, like Ush says, but not all bad. Sorta 80% evil, 20% good.

I just read through this thread and I gotta say ... Emperor Helmet ... you got no case against Ush ... he's rebutted all your points. And about Obi Wan being rusty ... its not even an issue. Of course the reason for him being rusty is because of 20 years of inactivity on a desert planet in the middle of nowhere ... not injury ... and his advancing age didn't help him either. Giving examples of jedi like Qui Gon or Dooku who were great warriors even in their older age doesn;t hold water, cause they were never inactive or out of touch.

Also, a lot of the other points you discussed have already been discussed in depth a couple of months back. You're just flogging the same dead horse over again. Check out some of those old threads ... e.g. Top 5 greatest jedi, darth maul vs. darth vader, whose the greatest etc.etc.

Bantha Fodders theory intrigues me a lot ... in fact .. i'd made a similar speculation on the Countdown thread, a couple of months back, when I saw the latest Clone Wars trailer for the first time.
Mainly because of the line " Join me Obi Wan ... together we can destroy the sith ! "

Anyone have read or seen "the exorcist"?

A definition of the Devil, that we can use as "RULE of EVIL"

The Devil will use lies, and he will mix them with true, to get you confused..."

I think Dooku fits on that. He mixes true with lies to mess with Ob1 mind. (And with us, of course)

I'd go with some percentage, but there's def some evil in Dooku

But there's no evil in me Julie ! I'm an angel !

Palpy uses the same strategy though.

Qui-Gon Jinn's own master said that Qui-Gon was the best swordsman he had seen in the last 300 years of the Jedi order. Does this mean that Count Dooku is much older than he looks? Or is he lying when he tells Ben that Qui-Gon was his Padawan?

EU

Semi-cannon. I think it was from TPM novelization.

Semi-canon indeed; stands to be overrideen by AOTC, though.

Count Dooku's age may disprove his claim to being QGJ's teacher.

I don't think so. Besides, we can always shift the age of one character or another by a decade or so.

Maybe QGJ WAS better in his good days than Dooku, who knows. But this is where Ush' theory of devaluation of evil comes in.

Uh, not bloody likely.

Actually, it's devaluation of power rather than evil, once Yoda gets thrown in.

You know I've been thinking about Dooku .... somehow I don't think his character, is a case of complete evil .... it's not going to be a case of complete white or complete black with him. His is a case of a great and noble jedi, one of the best the order ever produced, who for reasons of frustration left the order late in his life, and began to study the ways of the dark side from an unknown and unseen sith lord. So I think his character in many ways is going to be a lot more complex than that of Darth Maul, for instance, who was an out and out bad guy villain, simple as that.
In the case of Count Dooku, its not going to be as simple as : Oh, here's the evil Darth Tyranus, formerly known as Count Dooku, and he's the bad guy ... obviously granting that he will be evil in many ways, having taken lessons from Darth Sidious for ten years, still .... still there will be many more complexities in his character ... it wont be like, well once he was white, now he's black ... it will be more like gray areas ..... and even as the separatist Count Dooku, secretly apprentice to Darth Sidious and known as Darth Tyrannus, it wont be totally black, but shades of gray ... sorry i know this sounds vague, but i wonder if you get what i mean. I mean, thats the way it is in real life .... often you get people like Hitler, which is a case of out and out evil ... he IS a black guy. But often, its not as simple as that, a lot of people cannot be judged in terms of black and white, because, from different points of view, of different people concerned, its a case of gray with them, evil AND good .... I mean you know that maybe so and so guy is upto no good ... but its not as simple as that ... because within his blackness lies white as well, and so you get different shades of gray.
And I think that's gonna be the case with the character of Count Dooku.

It would be nice if we see Dooku turn back a bit in EpIII. But then again, I think he SHOULD be all black and bad now, because if he would be able to turn back from the Dark Side, then Anakin's effort in ROTJ is not very impressive anymore... We can't have that.

shades of gray? are we talking a sith light here

harmax, i totally agree. i've had similar thoughts on dooku. i think GL is following a similar path as in the ot. in ANH vader was basicaly a badass on a leash as was maul in TPM and it appears that dooku will be more complex with more screen time and insight into his character, like vader in TESB. i also believe that dooku will be a gray area kinda villain. he will ultimately be doing evil and not following the jedi code, but he beleives that he is doing what's right.

queeq, i wouldn't be suprised to see dooku have a change of heart in epIII. GL seems to follow patterns and that is an important element of the finale to the ot. but i agree with you that it would lessen the impact of anakin's redemption.

To Finti : No ... I meant .... more complex than, this guy is good and that guy is bad ... as in ... a character who is essentially helping things for the dark side, but .... you can't simply regarded him as a dark villain as in the case of Darth Maul, because ... he is NOT a totally bad guy, he IS a former jedi, and in his darkness, is mixed light, so ... whereas Maul was a simple case of a black villain ... in the case of Dooku, its a gray area thing ... not simply black. And that is the way it is in real life ... most of the times, its never : Ok so and so is the bad guy and that fellow's the good guy ... things are usually never so clear cut in terms of black and white. I mean ... some guy may be regarded as a negative personality ... but ... his own reasons for his actions and for what he is, maybe right ... for him ... and maybe from the viewpoint of a certain section of people, he may be totally justified in their eyes for being what he is ... and it is difficult to exactly pin down whose right and whose wrong. Of course there are always exceptions, as in the case of Hitler or Bin Laden or Slobodan Milosevic ... thats darkness pure unalderated.

But in say some guy like Fidel Castro ... you can't pin him down in terms of White and Black or right and wrong ... its a gray area thing.
I don't blame you if you don't get it, because I'm not able to articulate as clearly as I would like, what I want to convey ....

Look, guys, SW is very simple. How on earth could Yoda say "Once you start down the dark path forvere will it dominate your destiny, consumen you it will", if Dooku were able to withstand it and turn back. That is just IMPOSSIBLE. Maybe, just maybe he might make some kind of attempt, but then I am sure he fails miserably or gets destroyed miserably. But he cannot turn back.

i totally get what you're saying, maybe. and i agree. i guess my response wasn't as clear on that. i think i threw it off with the little comparisons between the sith apprentices in the ot and pt in the middle. but as we find out more info on the villain we realize that he has more complicated motivations that are not purely evil or good. i think GL is following that pattern with the pt, just with 2 different people instead of adding more meat to vader.
as i previously said i think dooku will being doing things that the audience will percieve as evil (because it aids the sith) but he himself will think his is doing the right thing for the galaxy. so basically in doing what he believes is right, he is partly good and parlty evil. i think our thoughts mesh, some what.

i've already posted my thoughts on the "dominate your destiny" thing. i think it simply mean that once you turn the dark side and your decision to turn will always affect your future. meaning that you don't have to be completly evil but you can never go back to being totaly pure and good.

It's not about whether one can turn back successfully from the dark side and live, or not ... and by the way, while we are at it, I don't think that what Yoda about the dark side dominating destiny forever, means that you have no chance of redeeming yourself from the dark side, but that is another point of debate ... to get back to this point, all I meant to say was, that it will not be possible to categorize Count Dooku as a completely black evil sith lord, as we could do with Darth Maul ... it will be more complex than that ...gray is neither completely black nor completely white, its neither and its both ... and I feel that it is a strong possibility that that is the way it will be with the character of Count Dooku.l

o the wonders of my favorite color, gray. cool thoughts harmax, i see and i agree. but now i must sleep. later.

Later Sarlacc ! Welcome aboard by the way, and keep posting !

I'll repeat what I have said before.

Unless there is a serious shift in the way Star Wars worksd, ALL charatcers with the EXCEPTION of the Skywalkers are moral absolutes- black or white. This is NOT real life, guys.

Hence Dooku is fully evil.

how do you mean NOT real life???

Who was that guy looking like Luke, acting like Luke and speaking like Luke then?

Mark Hamil?

who's that dude?
must be a stupid actor trying to make his way through RL...

ush, then how do you explain han solo? he isn't exactly the model example of the white hero. he is a scoundrel/smuggler who becomes a hero although he tries to fight it. i think he falls a little into the gray. i think there is room in star wars for a little more complexity than everyone and everything being either pure good or pure evil. i think that blurring the lines is cool, but agree this a childrens movie at heart and will retain a more simplistic view. but one character with more complex motiviations wouldn't be a problem or unrealistic to expect.

GL has himself described how the whole Star Wars morality structure is based on the old westerns where you could tell whether a man is good or evil by the colour of the hat he wore- white or black.

Everyone is so divided in Star Wars. Han Solo may have seemed a little dodgy, but he wasn't REALLY, was he? He DID always do the right thing, he DID come back for Luke and in no time at all he had become a bone fide hero. GL even made him fire second in the Special Edition because he looked too grey beforehand.

This is how GL wants it, guys., No shades.