Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I actually don't know if Obi-Wan could beat Darth Sidious but he could of done because Obi-Wan kicked the shit out of Anakan, and I think Anakan is more powerful than Darth Sidious.

Yeah, but still, Obi-Wan would get the living shit beaten out of him by Superman

....and Dangermouse.... Hell, Penfold for that matter....
Oh. And Penfold's mum.

Originally posted by Obi-OneManShow
Yeah, but still, Obi-Wan would get the living shit beaten out of him by Superman

Maybe not, maybe Obi-Wan would of used the force on Superman and chopped him in half with his lightsaber.

wtf does this have to do with ANYTHING? Put this shit in EU.

And o, Palps would wipe the floor with OB1...he just got lucky against Anakin....he couldnt even beat Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
wtf does this have to do with ANYTHING? Put this shit in EU.

And o, Palps would wipe the floor with OB1...he just got lucky against Anakin....he couldnt even beat Dooku.

Actually, Obi-Wan didn't get lucky with Anakan, search your feelings, you know this to be true, Anakan maybe more powerful than Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan can control the force better, and that's why he could kick the shit out of Anakan.

Still, though the Sith are more powerful and thats why they win out and why even a crippled robotic Darth Vader in ANH was dominating Obi-wan.

He didnt kick the shit out of him....so far we've seen Anakin owning his gay little ass the entire fight...which leads us to beleive, that OB1 gets a lucky shot in there. In every thing we see, its Anakin stalking OB1, OB1 getting chocked, punched, kicked, thrown....OB1 is a brown-nosing lil ***** who gets lucky.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
He didnt kick the shit out of him....so far we've seen Anakin owning his gay little ass the entire fight...which leads us to beleive, that OB1 gets a lucky shot in there. In every thing we see, its Anakin stalking OB1, OB1 getting chocked, punched, kicked, thrown....OB1 is a brown-nosing lil ***** who gets lucky.

The reaosn why they show Anakan punching Obi-Wan and all that is that they don't want to show you when Obi-Wan has enough of Anakan pissing about with him and just chops Anakan up and throws him in the lava pit- that's the climax of the fight and the film really.

Anakan of pepsi please!

yeah, i think we're gonna see anakin get carved up pretty quickly at the end of that fight. gonna be ugly!

Who the **** is ANAKAN?????...Do your homework scout.....not you smoker

Originally posted by J.M FcThumbs-Up
Who the **** is ANAKAN?????...Do your homework scout.....not you smoker

Oh god, who gives a shit that he spelled it wrong?! You know exactly who he was talking about.

Sorry man, but tell me....spelling wrong isn't wrong at all, but spelling it wrong for more than 5 times is too much!
And I didn't mean to offend you......damn, just kiddin man.
Don't take it all too serious!

I'll have you know I take nothing seriously!! NOTHING!!!!

There's no way in hell Ob1 kicked the sh*t out of anakin. Ob1's experience and Patience is what prevailed over Anakin and some luck. GL says himself that in Ep. 3 Anakin is more powerful but Ob1 is more experience. Sidious would destroy Ob1 hands down no more discussion this thread should just be moved EU.

Why should this be moved EU?

Sidious would carve Obi-Wan into tiny bits and feed them to his pet Dooku.

And if we're going to gripe about 'Anakan,' might as well gripe about 'Obi1'. *feels evil*

I've always believed that if Yoda or Obi-Wan faught Sidious in the prequels, it would always be a draw. The Force has prophecized Anakin's destruction of Sidious, and therefore nobody can kill him besides Anakin. BUT Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan had the Force beside them until other options open up. So its always been my thoughts that if Anakin were ever to face Sidious, he would kill him, even if it was Episode II Anakin vs Episode III Sidious. Sidious could possibly kill Anakin, but he would not escape the duel alive. So as for Yoda or Obi-Wan vs Sidious, its a draw, Anakin vs Sidious has Anakin as the victor.

i think the only reason that Obi Wan didnt beat Dooku is because when he fought Anakin there was more passion involved he was trying harder then ever to turn Anakin back...and Dooku used some dirty force tricks every chance he got against Obi Wan (from what ive read so far) by throwing him across the room 2 times i believe.. i dont know how Sidious will fight so i couldnt tell you. I believe Obi-Wan to be the best jedi along side Yoda, Mace, and Qui Gon and not to start the topic of Mace vs Sidious but i think he could have beaten Palpatine if not for Anakin..but thats another thread...but as of now i dont think Obi Wan would beat Sidious..but then again i dont think Sidious would dominate the fight either...

Originally posted by Obi-OneManShow
Yeah, but still, Obi-Wan would get the living shit beaten out of him by Superman

haha Random laugh1

Fu** ya he could have beat him.....obi wan is only the strongest....smartest sexiest jedi ever!!!!!

Obi-Wan would put up the best fight of any character before him against Sidious. And if Sidious only used his lightsaber, Obi-wan could win. However, Sidious has so much training, skill and power that not even the best swordsman in the galaxy could win.

Mace is better at lightsaber dueling then obi-wan ... from the info ive recieved..so if sidious only used a lightsaber mace would have killed him...yoda highest in knowledge..mace highest in combat..and obi wan a combination of both but not AS powerful IMO

*sigh*

Sidious would have killed Mace had he not been luring Anakin into his 'I'm going to make you so damned evil that you kill everyone!' trap.

Mace is indeed better than Obi-Wan when it comes to a blade, but Sidious is better still. Better than Yoda, as well.

Originally posted by awain
I actually don't know if Obi-Wan could beat Darth Sidious but he could of done because Obi-Wan kicked the shit out of Anakan, and I think Anakan is more powerful than Darth Sidious.

No Chance in hell.

there is no evidence of this topic because we don't have any concrete evidence of the true fighting ability of darth sidious until ROTS comes out.

lets see, sidious kills off mace windu, kit fisto, agen kolar and saesse tinn. he also beats the living sh*t out of yoda. i think this qualifies as his ability to knock the socks off obi wan.

obi wan beat anakin in the duel, but if anakin was as evil as sidious, he would have won.

will have to see how the duel with yoda and mace go before we can actually discuss this topic..i agree with yo_yoda...we should repost this after the movie then from what is shown in the movie we can determine...for now were basing it on scripted stuff...

Darth Sidous would kick the shit out of obi-wan.

hmmmm......obiwan would win because he has those brown robes...jedi robes are what give a jed ihis power...no robes no win...palp has black which is not good

lol

this thread should be closed because obi vs. sid doesn't happen, and all other judgment are pesonal beliefs.

Mace is better at lightsaber dueling then obi-wan ... from the info ive recieved..so if sidious only used a lightsaber mace would have killed him...yoda highest in knowledge..mace highest in combat..and obi wan a combination of both but not AS powerful IMO

I have argued, and will continue to argue that because Obi-Wan defeats General Grievous, then the most powerful force user ever, in about, a weeks period, that he is better than Mace Windu or at least his equal.

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
Mace is better at lightsaber dueling then obi-wan ... from the info ive recieved..so if sidious only used a lightsaber mace would have killed him...yoda highest in knowledge..mace highest in combat..and obi wan a combination of both but not AS powerful IMO

I have argued, and will continue to argue that because Obi-Wan defeats General Grievous, then the most powerful force user ever, in about, a weeks period, that he is better than Mace Windu or at least his equal.

grievous doesnt count coz obiwan shoots him.

Originally posted by yo_yoda
this thread should be closed because obi vs. sid doesn't happen, and all other judgment are pesonal beliefs.

If you want to think that.

And the Grievous vs. Obi-Wan truly is a lucky win, from what we've seen on the Clone Wars thing and heard of the General.

Mist, you're right, Obi-Wan does shoot him, but Obi-Wan puts up a better fight than anyone before him, and he does come out on top.
I mean Obi-Wan technically defeated Maul, but I still argue Maul had him outclassed.

in the clone wars episodes i remember him dodging force attacks lol i duno how he did that

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
I mean Obi-Wan technically defeated Maul, but I still argue Maul had him outclassed.

damn that 2 on 1

Dodging Force attacks? What?

Maul did have Obi-Wan outclassed. Trained Sith vs. nigh-ready Padawan. Obi-Wan wasn't allowed to die though, or the continuity would break...

i meant Grevious...Ki Adi had did some kind of force blast ill try to find what episode but i remeber Gervoius moving outta the way lol

I was so pissed off when Grievous dodged a force push, that was ridiculous. I'll accept him being super fast, but good god man, that's just lame.

lol yea so u know what im talking about lol thats why i dont know why Grevious is such a threat to obi-wan if he can just like force the crap ouuta him lol

See, this is where I argue, you could use force lightning in defense. If Grievous was trying to kill Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan fried him with lightning, that would be defense.

lol yea exactly lol or like toss him off a cliff or something lol

Or ambush him with a sh*tload of clone troopers.

lol

Lightning can only be used through incredible hatred and all those lovely Dark-Side feelings. Obi-Wan could never handle that.

And Force pushes ain't that hard to dodge. The reason that Obi-Wan got hit hard was that he was just blindly pissed and unfocused.

how can u dodge something u cant see? ie force push

By sensing it...

lol grevious? force sensative lol a crazy twist im sensing lol

Obi would have beat Sidious out of sheer luck.... luck always plays in Obi's favour...... Siddy would trip over Obi-Wan's lightsaber hilt under his feet and fall backwards off the Senate Pod and lands face first into the ground.... dead. Stupid Yoda.... he doesnt have a clue

lol obi wan only actually has 1 battle...anakin... lol the other fights he has hes knocked out most of the time lol accept the maul and grevious lol but maul had already fended off qui gon and grevious well ive yet to see him

Originally posted by BAILY
Obi would have beat Sidious out of sheer luck.... luck always plays in Obi's favour...... Siddy would trip over Obi-Wan's lightsaber hilt under his feet and fall backwards off the Senate Pod and lands face first into the ground.... dead. Stupid Yoda.... he doesnt have a clue

Sidious would slip on a banana peel, then Obi-Wan blade.

Originally posted by Sith-Master 8k2
No Chance in hell.

Really, well maybe Anakan isn't as powerful as Darth Sidious in Episode III...but in Episode VI, Darth Vader simply picked up the Emperor and destroyed him easily so maybe Anakan really is more powerful.

Anakin in episode 3 is more powerful than EVERYONE
Sidious included.
but the fact is Obi-Wan could escape form Sidious, but never defeat him

Originally posted by awain
Really, well maybe Anakan isn't as powerful as Darth Sidious in Episode III...but in Episode VI, Darth Vader simply picked up the Emperor and destroyed him easily so maybe Anakan really is more powerful.

He just caught him by surprise and probably was temporarily able to withstand the force lightning because of his suit...(The respirator of which soon gave out anyway...) Anakin would've reacted to a good toasting by the Emporer the same way he did in Ep2 at the hands of Dooku without the suit unless he absorbed it with his 'sabre.....
And then since it has been stated that Palps could beat anyone, such are his powers in Ep3, Palps would then whup Anakin royally in a lightsaber fight...

He just caught him by surprise and probably was temporarily able to withstand the force lightning because of his suit

dude, the suit made the lightning more painful and devastating to withstand.

but you're right, if anakin would have never fallen into lava, he would eat sidious

anakin using the darkside in ep3 would stand a pretty good chance against sidious. inside vader suit, no chance watsoever.

Look, it's been said and proven that Anakin is the only one who can kill Sidious and bring the Force into balance. Thus, Obi-Wan may be able to survive against Sidious but he WOULD NOT be able to kill him. Anakin is the only one Sidious would fall against and (allow me to channel Ush for a moment) anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong.

Anakin picked up the Emperor and tossed him down a shaft, and you think that makes him powerful? How hard is it to pick someone up, carry them a few feet, and drop them? He had the physical strength to pick him up yes, and the willpower to withstand the Force lightning, but that is no measure of how strong someone is.

I agree that Obi-Wan beats Grievous with a blaster out of luck. No one should be able to defeat a character that is skilled with a lightsaber, Force-sensitive or no, with a blaster unless they are incredibly skilled ( Jango in Ep2) or the lightsaber wielder in question is against overwhelming odds (Geonosis arena).

BTW, Grievous, IMHO, is not Force-sensitive but he kicks ass with a lightsaber anyway.

Just figured I'd cover all the bases here, I had a lot to say.

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus

but you're right, if anakin would have never fallen into lava, he would eat sidious

Yup, Its funny how life can work....Isn't it....?
To be fair though.... It looked like as I said, the suit enabled Anakin to be able to take the lightning A LOT better than any other un-suited individual had throughout the entire saga..... The suit is just another element along with Luke and the rebel attack blindsiding Palps long enough for Anakin to blindside him and chuck him down the shaft...
Without any of these elements, I don't think Anakin'd be able to do it or have the motivation to forfill the prophecy in the sudden way that he did...

Why didn't he use his sabre to deflect/absorb the Emporer's lightning in Ep6...? Again he would have gotten his ass handed back to him by Palps lightsabre on lightsabre..... Palps rules all with the sabre....

Anakin wasn't meant to fall to the dark side of the Force at all, his destiny was to kill the Sith. How he got there could have happened in any number of ways. He could have stayed of the light path for all we know had the circumstances been different. Had he stayed on the light path and not been seduced by the dark side there would have been no suit and he would've been much stronger and he would have pwned Sidious.

AT ALL? He WAS meant to turn as he DID turn to the darkside, maybe it was not the Jedi's plan or expectation, but it certainly was the way of the force.
(To be light then dark then into balance.)
A large part of his redemption was Luke. Luke would never have been born without Padme. His relationship with/and not being able to keep Padme was in part what turned him to the darkside... His circumstance of his whole life pointed to him turning to the darkside....


And looking at the "If he had stayed on the lightside" argument even further, since the lightside (Even the most powerful of it's practitioners)
lacked the ability to get Sidious out of there, Anakin would have had to have the immediately more powerful Darkside anyway to stand a chance....

Remember, it was only in that flash of Darksideyness that Luke was able to beat Vader in combat finally...?
And if he wasn't so close to Sidious, and in that exact position in ROTJ, he may not have been able to kill the sith...Bringing balance.
One of the great points about the resolution of ROTJ was that even though Anakin had to go through what he went through, everything was ok in the end.....But had to go through it, he did.......

Anakin would have been able to kill the Sith because that was his destiny, light side or not. The Prophecy tells us this. This is fact.

How do you figure Anakin was meant to turn to the dark side? Everything was circumstancial.

-Had Qui-Gon not died Anakin would have had a better teacher than Obi-Wan.

-Had Shmi not died, Anakin wouldn't have slaughtered the Sand People in rage.

-Had Padme stayed on the ship like Qui-Gon told her to, Anakin wouldn't have met her and been tempted to break the Jedi Code.

Everything could have gone the other way around, it wasn't the will of the Force it was circumstance.

"There is no such thing as luck" - Obi-Wan Kenobi

He's right. Anakins turn to the darkside was circumstantial - but that means that it's mere chance. In the Star Wars Universe, nothing happens by chance. Anakin is a victim of circumstance, which it itself is due to the will of the force. I mean, it was a Jedi after all that used the force, saw potential in Anakin and trained him. Thats the will of the force, not some circumstance. Of course it's the will of the force that Anakin turns - how can it not be?

And to answer the question - Obi-Wan could probably fend off Sidious.

But without Obi-Wan, Luke would never leave Tatooine, and would therefore never face Vader to fulfil the prophecy - so, in other words, Obi-Wan was "protected" by the prophecy in a way. If he died, the prophecy would not come true. Obi-Wan vs Sidious would never happen even if Obi-Wan and Sidious tried.

In a no holds barred, typical fight to the death, Sidious would win. But like I said, it would never happen, so why even bother?

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
Anakin would have been able to kill the Sith because that was his destiny, light side or not. The Prophecy tells us this. This is fact.

How do you figure Anakin was meant to turn to the dark side? Everything was circumstancial.

-Had Qui-Gon not died Anakin would have had a better teacher than Obi-Wan.

-Had Shmi not died, Anakin wouldn't have slaughtered the Sand People in rage.

-Had Padme stayed on the ship like Qui-Gon told her to, Anakin wouldn't have met her and been tempted to break the Jedi Code.

Everything could have gone the other way around, it wasn't the will of the Force it was circumstance.

1) Show me a quote from the movies where it states about light OR dark....It merely prophecised the Chosen one bringing balance.
So to assert that the prophecy states that he could forfill it by going either way as fact is simply wrong.

2)Circumstances are the building blocks of life.
(Also see answer 6)

3)Better teacher or not, due to his slave childhood and lack of control/power back then, he'd STILL have grown ambitious and weaked by temptation of power would probably have given YODA a headache.

4)Shmi inevitably WOULD have died.... Anakin WOULD have to face this eventually and his frustration at his inability to hold on to things STILL would mess him up.... Even later on..... The slaughtering of the sandpeople was symptomatic of this inability of his....

5)True. But then Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born, Luke wouldn't have triggered Vader's defeat of the Emporer. (Or destroyed the first Death star either)

6) "The force controls our actions, but partially obeys our commands."
"The force will guide us."
"It is the will of the force"

Basically everything happened and was able to happen in accordance with the prophecy, BECAUSE it happened... No other way.
Prophecies never regard the might-have-beens. Only what WILL be.

Thats a good point Sakado

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) Show me a quote from the movies where it states about light OR dark....It merely prophecised the Chosen one bringing balance.
So to assert that the prophecy states that he could forfill it by going either way as fact is simply wrong.

2)Circumstances are the building blocks of life.
(Also see answer 6)

3)Better teacher or not, due to his slave childhood and lack of control/power back then, he'd STILL have grown ambitious and weaked by temptation of power would probably have given YODA a headache.

4)Shmi inevitably WOULD have died.... Anakin WOULD have to face this eventually and his frustration at his inability to hold on to things STILL would mess him up.... Even later on..... The slaughtering of the sandpeople was symptomatic of this inability of his....

5)True. But then Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born, Luke wouldn't have triggered Vader's defeat of the Emporer. (Or destroyed the first Death star either)

6) "The force controls our actions, but partially obeys our commands."
"The force will guide us."
"It is the will of the force"

Basically everything happened and was able to happen in accordance with the prophecy, BECAUSE it happened... No other way.
Prophecies never regard the might-have-beens. Only what WILL be.

1.) There is nothing that says Anakin must fall to the dark side, nor is there anything saying that he has to stay on the light path. He only has to fulfill the Prophecy. It doesn't matter how he does it, he just has to do it. I agree with you, but I don't see how I'm wrong.

2.) See 6.

3.) Of course the teacher matters. You can be taught control and I believe Qui-Gon would have done a better job at teaching Anakin merely because he did not stick to the rigidity that the Council demanded in its training methods. Obi-Wan represented this rigidity and it is a flaw which Qui-Gon could have corrected.

4.) Yes Shmi would have died, but had it been under different circumstances (i.e. a later time and not captured by Sand People) then Anakin would have learned more control by then and there would be nothing to slaughter in rage, plus he probably would have had his Master with him who could also help him cope and control his emotions.

5.) If he hadn't met Padme, then yes Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born but it wouldn't have mattered because if you combine everything I've been saying then Anakin doesn't turn to the dark side, he kills Sidious, and Vader never exists so Luke has no purpose anyway.

6.) "...Partially obeys our commands." Yes, the Force has a will of its own, but it also listens to those who command it. It will follow the will of the Force user if it is commanded to do so. We make the choices we make, the Force cannot force (haha) someone to make a choice, they ultimately make it themselves. The Force is a guide, not a dictator.

The Prophecy says the Chosen One will kill the Sith, it doesn't dictate what happens in between finding the Chosen One and the fulfillment of the Prophecy. The might-have-beens are important indeed because they pave that path of the One. The Prophecy doesn't say that things COULDN'T have happened another way.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
1.) There is nothing that says Anakin must fall to the dark side, nor is there anything saying that he has to stay on the light path. He only has to fulfill the Prophecy. It doesn't matter how he does it, he just has to do it. I agree with you, but I don't see how I'm wrong.

2.) See 6.

3.) Of course the teacher matters. You can be taught control and I believe Qui-Gon would have done a better job at teaching Anakin merely because he did not stick to the rigidity that the Council demanded in its training methods. Obi-Wan represented this rigidity and it is a flaw which Qui-Gon could have corrected.

4.) Yes Shmi would have died, but had it been under different circumstances (i.e. a later time and not captured by Sand People) then Anakin would have learned more control by then and there would be nothing to slaughter in rage, plus he probably would have had his Master with him who could also help him cope and control his emotions.

5.) If he hadn't met Padme, then yes Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born but it wouldn't have mattered because if you combine everything I've been saying then Anakin doesn't turn to the dark side, he kills Sidious, and Vader never exists so Luke has no purpose anyway.

6.) "...Partially obeys our commands." Yes, the Force has a will of its own, but it also listens to those who command it. It will follow the will of the Force user if it is commanded to do so. We make the choices we make, the Force cannot force (haha) someone to make a choice, they ultimately make it themselves. The Force is a guide, not a dictator.

The Prophecy says the Chosen One will kill the Sith, it doesn't dictate what happens in between finding the Chosen One and the fulfillment of the Prophecy. The might-have-beens are important indeed because they pave that path of the One. The Prophecy doesn't say that things COULDN'T have happened another way.

1) Wrong only by saying that he could have forfilled the prophecy staying on the lightside and that the prophecy stated this to be a possibilty, which you had presented wrongly as a fact.

2, 3 and 6) Qui-gonn was aware of the "Living force" concept I'm speaking of... The teacher matters only so far as the will of the student to follow the teachings.... And the last I looked at TPM, Qui-Gonn didn't look like he was shy in defying his OWN teachers..... This'd probably have rubbed off on Anakin or at least, Anakin'd follow by example.(If he followed at all....) Getting back to the Force issue though... The whole symbiotic relationship states that its a "Two to tango thing with the force"
So yes it DOES have an influence.

4) Again all ifs, buts and maybes anyway when the only thing which matters is how it happened, which is the ONLY way it could have happened...The prophecy HAD to happen the way it did. Other wise it wasn't a prophecy. Besides how DO we know that someone with the issues that Anakin had wouldn't have reacted badly even if she'd lived 'til 60.... Anyway. Someone else may have murdered her, or an accident may have occurred, which could seem similarly unjust to Anakin...Sparking rage.... Anyway "it was her destiny"

5) If he wasn't the one from the prophecy (Which he wouldn't be if he didn't have Luke and have Luke's torture trigger his attack on Palps,killing him and bringing balance)
then he couldn't have destroyed Palps and bought balance to the force anyway. Again. Circumstance was the thing that enabled the balance bringing. Without HIS circumstance bought about by all these actions in his life, he wouldn't be able to BE the 'chosen one'.

*grinds head through a wall*

Sadako is the right one, so far, for the most part.

My god.
Prophecy would have been fulfilled had Anakin not betrayed Mace.
Or in Return of the Jedi like it happens.
No need for ridiculously long posts here. (No offense, I've done it, but I didn't think it would take so much to say so little)

Oh yeah, I still think Obi-Wan couldn't kill him.
Just run to Tattoine.

I agree with you there...

In regards to the post length thing: Had to take the long way as the short way wasn't working. So no. No offence taken... Sorry 'bout that anyways...

It's all good. I was thinking about something though. Sidious is Dooku's master, therefore he must be superior. (Sith and all) And every time Dooku faces Obi-Wan, he manages to punk him. He's just mastered Obi-Wan's defenses to well.
So you could say, based on that, that Obi-Wan could not defeat Sidious.

They should make another star wars game. Have young vader, mech vader, sidious, maul, qui-gonn, dooku, yoda, etc. (You see where I'm going.) It would be a mix of a classic fighting game (like street fighter 2) and ninja gaiden for x-box. Then we could all prove who we think wins lol

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) Wrong only by saying that he could have forfilled the prophecy staying on the lightside and that the prophecy stated this to be a possibilty, which you had presented wrongly as a fact.

2, 3 and 6) Qui-gonn was aware of the "Living force" concept I'm speaking of... The teacher matters only so far as the will of the student to follow the teachings.... And the last I looked at TPM, Qui-Gonn didn't look like he was shy in defying his OWN teachers..... This'd probably have rubbed off on Anakin or at least, Anakin'd follow by example.(If he followed at all....) Getting back to the Force issue though... The whole symbiotic relationship states that its a "Two to tango thing with the force"
So yes it DOES have an influence.

4) Again all ifs, buts and maybes anyway when the only thing which matters is how it happened, which is the ONLY way it could have happened...The prophecy HAD to happen the way it did. Other wise it wasn't a prophecy. Besides how DO we know that someone with the issues that Anakin had wouldn't have reacted badly even if she'd lived 'til 60.... Anyway. Someone else may have murdered her, or an accident may have occurred, which could seem similarly unjust to Anakin...Sparking rage.... Anyway "it was her destiny"

5) If he wasn't the one from the prophecy (Which he wouldn't be if he didn't have Luke and have Luke's torture trigger his attack on Palps,killing him and bringing balance)
then he couldn't have destroyed Palps and bought balance to the force anyway. Again. Circumstance was the thing that enabled the balance bringing. Without HIS circumstance bought about by all these actions in his life, he wouldn't be able to BE the 'chosen one'.

1) Allow me to rephrase then, because I know what post you mean. I meant that the Prophecy tells use that Anakin will bring balance to the Force, not that it said the light side was a possibility. That was a miscommunication on my part.

2) The better the teacher the more will the student has to obey that teacher. Obviously Anakin saw that Obi-Wan had flaws and I think he would have responded more to Qui-Gon, liked him more as a teacher, and would have responded with less resistance than he does with Obi-Wan. He would have respected Qui-Gon more and therefore would have respected his decisions more than Obi-Wan's.

4) And I am still adamant in my position that id did not HAVE to happen that way, that the path could have been traveled any number of ways, and that Anakin could have stayed on the light path had he so chosen. The Prophecy only tells us the destination, that Anakin would defeat the Sith, not how he actually goes about doing it. And again, I stress the fact that Qui-Gon could have helped Anakin cope with his distress when his mother inevitably dies. Obi-Wan, whom Anakin respects and trusts, didn't know his mother had died and wasn't there to help him. Qui-Gon may have been there to help. Yes they are all ifs, maybes, and speculation but nothing here is certain so it calls for the ifs, maybes, and speculation.

5) What do the children have to do with the Prophecy exactly? it doesn't mention children, it mentions the Chosen One. It doesn't say that Anakin can't be the Chosen One if he doesn't have children, that's ridiculous. He could have destroyed Sidious without falling to the dark path. That being the case, the children may not have existed at all. They are not necessary to fulfill the Prophecy, only the Chosen One is. The only thing that makes Anakin the Chosen One is his ability to defeat Sidious, not the circumstances in his life.

Yes this is another long reply but like you said before, short replies apparently won't do here.

I just want to say a few things...

Qui-Gon would have been a better teacher. From when he was a boy, he had a better connection with him. Obi-Wan always kept it in his mind that he was forced to take Anakin as a Padawan, which blocked Anakin's learning, thus his control etc...You can see this in a deleted scene from ep I, where Anakin is fighting Greedo, Qui-Gon gives a little speech about anger and accepting other ones opinion. Anakin immediatly understands and accepts what Qui-Gon said. Again through their connection.

Shmi would die, no matter what path Anakin takes. The only mistake Anakin made was going after her. That is why you hear the duel of fates during the chase. It is Anakin's point of no return. At that moment Anakin's fate is sealed! Would he gone after her if he had Qui-Gon as a teacher? I don't think so. Qui-Gon was a hard teacher and Anakin wouldn't be so arrogant. You see you have the will of the Force...and you have choices. That is what the Jedi and the Sith do...you either follow the will of the Force or you don't. Anakin didn't, because of bad education, which Obi-Wan admits himself. "I thought I could instruct him aswell as Yoda, I was wrong!" I don't say Obi-Wan is a bad Jedi, not at all, but it was not Obi-Wan's choice (again...choices) to take him Anakin as a padawan which changed Anakin's character from a humble slave to an arrogant Jedi. Another example is that padawans who show respect to their masters built their lightsabers based on the ones of their masters. Anakin did not, again his choice cause his arrogance. All simple details. But it makes sense.

The prophecy...I didn't think it said Anakin should fall to the Dark Side. On the contrary. It probably also had something to do with the will of the Force, it is just the way you see what balance in the Force is...if it means that all the Sith are dead, yes Anakin did bring balance but through a longer path. The path would have been a lot shorter if he was trained different. Anakin wouldn't need his son to confront the Sith. He would have taken care of it immediatly!

To AK:

Apparently not. No....

1) Fair Enough then.

2) No matter how good the polisher is, you can't polish a turd.
Anakin may very well have listened to Qui-Gonn a little more, but
Anakin lead his own life like we all do. Im sure that he respected Obi-
wan too, but his own wishes/fears overode them....
Anyway, Qui-gonn died and that doesn't matter anyway.

4) Fair enough bout your adamance. I respect your right to your opinion.
But cause and effect still are a fundimental part of the SW universe,
and since the path of Anakins life lead him to the point where he
could forfill the prophecy, undoing that path, would alter the outcome
and the effects on the events that were in the prophecy.... Bringing
balance to the force.... Again. Prophecies are forfilled by what
happens, not what might.

5) The children allowed Anakin to be in the position he was in in Ep6 and
therefore aided killing the Emporer in the only way it occured, the
only way it could happen because by virtue of the fact that it did
happen.

Originally posted by awain
Could Obi-WAN of beaten Darth Sidous
No.... no he could not....

First of all, Cascador those are very good points and exactly what I was trying to say all along. Although "the balance of the Force" is known to be the eradication of the Sith.

Second of all...

2) True enough, he did live his life the way he wanted but with better guidance he could have lived a little differently.

4) Prophecies do indeed tell what happens, but still not necessarily HOW it happens. I am not denying what the Prophecy says, I am debating what it doesn't say.

5) I'm also not denying the children's importance, merely stating that if Anakin stayed on the light path then the children wouldn't have mattered.

Originally posted by Cascador
I just want to say a few things...

Qui-Gon would have been a better teacher. From when he was a boy, he had a better connection with him. Obi-Wan always kept it in his mind that he was forced to take Anakin as a Padawan, which blocked Anakin's learning, thus his control etc...You can see this in a deleted scene from ep I, where Anakin is fighting Greedo, Qui-Gon gives a little speech about anger and accepting other ones opinion. Anakin immediatly understands and accepts what Qui-Gon said. Again through their connection.

Shmi would die, no matter what path Anakin takes. The only mistake Anakin made was going after her. That is why you hear the duel of fates during the chase. It is Anakin's point of no return. At that moment Anakin's fate is sealed! Would he gone after her if he had Qui-Gon as a teacher? I don't think so. Qui-Gon was a hard teacher and Anakin wouldn't be so arrogant. You see you have the will of the Force...and you have choices. That is what the Jedi and the Sith do...you either follow the will of the Force or you don't. Anakin didn't, because of bad education, which Obi-Wan admits himself. "I thought I could instruct him aswell as Yoda, I was wrong!" I don't say Obi-Wan is a bad Jedi, not at all, but it was not Obi-Wan's choice (again...choices) to take him Anakin as a padawan which changed Anakin's character from a humble slave to an arrogant Jedi. Another example is that padawans who show respect to their masters built their lightsabers based on the ones of their masters. Anakin did not, again his choice cause his arrogance. All simple details. But it makes sense.

The prophecy...I didn't think it said Anakin should fall to the Dark Side. On the contrary. It probably also had something to do with the will of the Force, it is just the way you see what balance in the Force is...if it means that all the Sith are dead, yes Anakin did bring balance but through a longer path. The path would have been a lot shorter if he was trained different. Anakin wouldn't need his son to confront the Sith. He would have taken care of it immediatly!

But then he wouldn't match Palps for experience and would be whupped regardless. Besides, its not all about failures on the part of the Jedi...
Its equally about Palps homing in on Anakin's inherent sense of frustration at the lack of power afforded to you by the Jedi order...
Even if Qui-gonn had trained him, he STILL would've felt angry at not being able to hold on to the attachments/ relationships he had and would still most likely be bored. This was the kid who wanted to be first
to see all the stars, to free all the slaves and to hold on to his mother for all of his life...
Being in the Jedi order would've kept him from both dreams=resentment.

All this "What if stuff"... Man, one thing being overlooked in this is that as Yoda said, Anakin was TOO OLD to begin the training, which was why he found his attachment to his Mum too difficult to overcome.

I have to disagree. A LARGE portion of Anakin's frustration came from the way Obi-Wan trained him. Anakin already liked Qui-Gonn, because Qui-Gonn believed in him, while young Obi-Wan seemed not to trust him. Qui-Gonn's teachings were more like Anakin's way of doing things. He went with his instincts, allowing the force to guide him. I admit Qui-Gonn would have still had a rough time with Anakin's anger, but I am 100000% he would be better than Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan admits it himself that he thought he was as good of an instructor as Yoda, and wasn't.
Yoda was wise to be cautious, but in the end didn't Luke refrain form the darkside?
Anakin could have done the same thing, but he had the most powerful politcal figure/force user in the galaxy telling him how great he is, how he should have more; manipulating the boy.
But, there's always been the point of, why not Mace Windu or Yoda directly training Anakin?

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
First of all, Cascador those are very good points and exactly what I was trying to say all along. Although "the balance of the Force" is known to be the eradication of the Sith.

Second of all...

2) True enough, he did live his life the way he wanted but with better guidance he could have lived a little differently.

4) Prophecies do indeed tell what happens, but still not necessarily HOW it happens. I am not denying what the Prophecy says, I am debating what it doesn't say.

5) I'm also not denying the children's importance, merely stating that if Anakin stayed on the light path then the children wouldn't have mattered.

1) At the time that the prophecy was known first (At least when Mace
mentioned it with Qui-gonn, the Sith were thought to not exist.
The prophecy seems to be non-specific about the destruction of the
Sith being involved.

2) Well he did get it and was hindered by natural "Weaknesses" that
would mess his life up anyways, but at the same time, would put him
on the path to forfilling the prophecy.

4) Well it doesn't say anything about R2 either... But he played his part. If it wasn't for him, the Jedi would never had made it to Tatooine.

5) Well. He had them as a part on his way to the prophecy, the same path he was bound to when Qui-gonn wanted to train him.

IMO Mace was the most cautious of anakin's teachings...and i think teaching would be the same way as it would be at a school...meaning that children will learn better from a person they can interact with...your not going to listen or like a teacher thats an a$$ ur going to want to listen to the teacher that you can talk to about things other then school..and its the same deal with anakin he couldn't open up with obi-wan...obi-wan was too strict he was old school jedi master...whereas qui-gon didn't follow things by the code..he seemed like a more learn from experience type teacher and thats the kind of free spirit that Anakin was and Obi-wan never gave him a chance to do anything independently to grow as a jedi...he was always babbysat...so i believe if he had a different master he may have been molded differently at his young age...

I guess the bottom line is, negating all ifs, buts and maybes would be, that Anakin was too old to go through training and keep to the lightside.

he was too old indeed...he was able to understand the world around him...right and wrong...death and life...pain and suffering

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) At the time that the prophecy was known first (At least when Mace
mentioned it with Qui-gonn, the Sith were thought to not exist.
The prophecy seems to be non-specific about the destruction of the
Sith being involved.

2) Well he did get it and was hindered by natural "Weaknesses" that
would mess his life up anyways, but at the same time, would put him
on the path to forfilling the prophecy.

4) Well it doesn't say anything about R2 either... But he played his part. If it wasn't for him, the Jedi would never had made it to Tatooine.

5) Well. He had them as a part on his way to the prophecy, the same path he was bound to when Qui-gonn wanted to train him.

1) Oh yes, the Jedi had no idea what the Prophecy meant. But it has been confirmed that the Prophecy refers to destroying the Sith.

2) Exactly how did he get better guidance? I meant that he'd have gotten better guidance than Obi-Wan in the form of Qui-Gon. He could have helped Anakin improve on his weaknesses.

4+5) Exactly my point, it doesn't say that R2 or anyone else can't help. It doesn't say who can or cannot assist the Chosen One, only that he fulfill the Prophecy. Like I said, that path doesn't matter in this case, only the destination.

think of another small thing they say in spider-man...Anakin has a huge power...none other than any Jedi or Sith!
With great power comes great responsability!
Anakin couldn't carry that responsability and he didn't have Obi-Wan much to help him with that responsability.
Luke also has a large power like his father, but he had help from both Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
path doesn't matter in this case, only the destination.

yuppp...there was no guidline only a goal...they coulda destroyed the whole universe but as long as there was balance in the force the prophecy was accurate...and i think thats what the problem was..they didnt think of the bad consequences that could happen they only thought "Prophecy were saved" at least most did...

1) In ROTJ, but aside from then, by whom and when?

2) We don't know... Maybe maybe not. All that matters is what DID occur

4+5) My whole point I guess, is more that if you removed R2, the Kids, Sidious, hell, even Sebulba, the prophecy wouldn't have occured as the prophecy was about the outcome of ROTJ... Not the prophecy of an EU
fantasy of what might have been.

Let's just agree on one thing!
Obi-Wan wasn't the best choice to be a master for Anakin!

Cause and effect are the guideline.

there was no specific layout on how to become the prophecy there could have been multiple ways..good or bad...so thats y i said there was no guildline but yea cause and effect is def. in there

Another think of what Sadako said...if R2 didn't rescue the Jedi, they would be dead and Qui-Gon wouldn't have found Anakin....doesn't matter! There is no such thing as coinsidence! If the Jedi died the Force would guide the Jedi so he was found. That's maybe something that failed in the past. Maybe it was meant to be that he was found when he was younger. Something could have disturbed that!

Originally posted by Cascador
Let's just agree on one thing!
Obi-Wan wasn't the best choice to be a master for Anakin!


Yeah, but he was a neccesary link in the road that enabled Anakin to
do what he did...

How can you say Anakin was too old when Luke was like 15 years older when he started training?
Sidious' ability to trick Anakin and Anakin's dissapointment inObi-Wan/Obi-Wan thinking he's such a great teacher.

Originally posted by Cascador
Maybe it was meant to be that he was found when he was younger. Something could have disturbed that!

it was palpatine...he clouded..their...timing? lol

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
How can you say Anakin was too old when Luke was like 15 years older when he started training?
Sidious' ability to trick Anakin and Anakin's dissapointment inObi-Wan/Obi-Wan thinking he's such a great teacher.

but think of it im sure Luke wasnt 100% lightside..in my opinion he was barely lightside if not neutral you can tell by his thoughts and actions in ROTJ...believe me it was just a decision one way or the other and he did what his father didnt...it could have went either way...IMO

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
How can you say Anakin was too old when Luke was like 15 years older when he started training?
Sidious' ability to trick Anakin and Anakin's dissapointment inObi-Wan/Obi-Wan thinking he's such a great teacher.

Well they trained Luke because they didn't have much choices left...that is something that I don't understand why Yoda refused to train him in the beginning...who would safe their buts...Leia? she was as old as Luke!
And I heard that Yoda was already talking of educting the children in ROTS

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) In ROTJ, but aside from then, by whom and when?

2) We don't know... Maybe maybe not. All that matters is what DID occur

4+5) My whole point I guess, is more that if you removed R2, the Kids, Sidious, hell, even Sebulba, the prophecy wouldn't have occured as the prophecy was about the outcome of ROTJ... Not the prophecy of an EU
fantasy of what might have been.

1) Lucas confirmed it.

4+5) First of all, removing Sebulba makes winning the race easier for Anakin. Second of all, the Prophecy is, yes, about killing Sidious. I agree with you entirely. What I have been saying all along is that it does not matter how the Chosen One does it so long as he does it.

And whether or not you meant it that way, calling my side of the debate an "EU fantasy" sounds like an insult to me. I do hope you'll refrain from doing that in the future.

The whole lesson of it is, when the force brings you the chosen one, you go with it.
Why else does Qui-Gonn retain his lidentity? Because he finally understands the full power of the force.
Why else does Obi-Wan instruct Luke to use the force, trust his instincts, stretch out with feelings and all that.
In the end, it seems the force is like fate, inevitably, it's goals will be accomplished. After all the evil Darth Vader commits, Anakin still finds a way to kill Sidious.

Originally posted by Malic Clanorian
it was palpatine...he clouded..their...timing? lol

nice joke! But it didn't have anything to do with Palpatine, he was probably unaware of the Chosen One or at least who he was and he already had an apprentice. Who knows lol, palp had something to do with it, I'm just giving an example...doesn't matter what happened. If Qui-Gon didn't find him...someone else would!

Originally posted by Cascador
Another think of what AK said...if R2 didn't rescue the Jedi, they would be dead and Qui-Gon wouldn't have found Anakin....doesn't matter! There is no such thing as coinsidence! If the Jedi died the Force would guide the Jedi so he was found. That's maybe something that failed in the past. Maybe it was meant to be that he was found when he was younger. Something could have disturbed that!

Exactly... Which is why I think It was the force's will to have everything that transpired transpiring... The pieces of the board wouldn't have been in place in any other way..... If the Jedi in TPM were killed then, then you would have to consider their and everyone elses actions and their consequences and the effects that they might have on the prophecy...

Tell you what.. How about this.
How about we go to the Ep1-2 or EU forums, set up a thread about buts and maybes of the prophecy and their millions of permutations...
Seriously. I think it'd be a great thread, but this has gone way off topic here and I'd hate to see this closed.... You could start by telling how you think it could have worked with Anakin being able to work the prophecy
form the Lightside.... And we can watch the debate from there, and I'd be happy to drop in... What do you think....?

Qui-Gonn found him because he believed in the prophecy, and his philosphy is what led the light side to victory.

i think he just wanted to kill sidious so he could rule the galaxy but then all the electro shock theropy he got shocked his a$$ and killed him so he just had to go with the flow and pretend he was good lol
"Dad! I knew there was good in you!" ... Vader "OOh...yea...right! you konw me good ole lightside jedi master.. " lol

Originally posted by Cascador
nice joke! But it didn't have anything to do with Palpatine, he was probably unaware of the Chosen One or at least who he was and he already had an apprentice. Who knows lol, palp had something to do with it, I'm just giving an example...doesn't matter what happened. If Qui-Gon didn't find him...someone else would!

lol i didnt mean just clouded there vision to find anakin i meant clouded the jedi's vision as a whole lol

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Tell you what.. How about this.
How about we go to the Ep1-2 or EU forums, set up a thread about buts and maybes of the prophecy and their millions of permutations...
Seriously. I think it'd be a great thread, but this has gone way off topic here and I'd hate to see this closed.... You could start by telling how you think it could have worked with Anakin being able to work the prophecy
form the Lightside.... And we can watch the debate from there, and I'd be happy to drop in... What do you think....?

Fine by me...It could even get in the ep III threads

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Exactly... Which is why I think It was the force's will to have everything that transpired transpiring... The pieces of the board wouldn't have been in place in any other way..... If the Jedi in TPM were killed then, then you would have to consider their and everyone elses actions and their consequences and the effects that they might have on the prophecy...

Tell you what.. How about this.
How about we go to the Ep1-2 or EU forums, set up a thread about buts and maybes of the prophecy and their millions of permutations...
Seriously. I think it'd be a great thread, but this has gone way off topic here and I'd hate to see this closed.... You could start by telling how you think it could have worked with Anakin being able to work the prophecy
form the Lightside.... And we can watch the debate from there, and I'd be happy to drop in... What do you think....?

I say we forget the other thread, agree to disagree, and let this thread continue the way it was meant to. Deal?

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
1) Lucas confirmed it.

4+5) First of all, removing Sebulba makes winning the race easier for Anakin. Second of all, the Prophecy is, yes, about killing Sidious. I agree with you entirely. What I have been saying all along is that it does not matter how the Chosen One does it so long as he does it.

And whether or not you meant it that way, calling my side of the debate an "EU fantasy" sounds like an insult to me. I do hope you'll refrain from doing that in the future.

Of course I didn't mean it to be insulting.
Its a "not-bearing-on-yourself" descriptive of the conversation as it applys mainly to events that do not take place in the movie.
(Not just your side but including the hypotheticals I too have been offering, and IM not insulted by that am I? )

obi wan would have lost...or won...depends on the surrounding enviroment

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
I say we forget the other thread, agree to disagree, and let this thread continue the way it was meant to. Deal?

Deal....

Peace to all in this debate i found it very interesting and enjoyable anyways... See you guys around....

Ok, I had a feeling you didn't mean it as an insult anyway. I was just checking.

Now that that's settled, maybe it's best to get this back on track:

No I don't think Obi-Wan could beat Sidious. Discuss away!

Same here...

same here...

This has been one interesting thread...and no, I doubt Obi-Wan could have defeated Sidious, but Obi-Wan should be able to put up a fight with Sidious before going down, or he probably finds some way to escape from Sidious. He always finds some way to get out of stressful situations.

yeah like the Arena! If Anakin wasn't there, he would have fought alone with three monsters lol

Don't you think it woul have been awesome to see Sidious vs. Obi-Wan and Yoda vs. Vader?

bump

Originally posted by awain
I actually don't know if Obi-Wan could beat Darth Sidious but he could of done because Obi-Wan kicked the shit out of Anakan, and I think Anakan is more powerful than Darth Sidious.
Probably not. Yoda, Windu and other jedi-masters had their bottoms handed to them by the sith lord

Based on the people they fight and what they have to go through emotionally, I think Obi-Wan would have had the best chance against Sidious, but would have had to run and hide or get slice and diced.

Ohh common guys! this topic is ridiculous! Obi wan gets a lucky shot in the anakin duel. his lack of going crazy allows him to stay focused thru the whole fight, where as anakin's anger makes him lose concentration. he is not even close to being as powerful as anakin. second, is Obi more powerful then yoda? i think not, and yoda looses against Palpatine, so therefore Obi would get his A** handed to him by Palps. this is a stupid topic, Obi is not that powerful, in comparision hes an above average jedi, but not in the ranks of Windu, Yoda, or Anakin. and all of them are not strong enough to beat palpatine by themself, so in short, Obi wan would get destroyed by palpatine.