If you are Atheist, in court do you still have to swear a Oath Under god

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ash007
Ok there is an on going case in America which i wont comment on but you can read about it
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/24/scotus.pledge.ap/index.html


Ok in the countries i know which is the UK and the US when you go to court you have to swear a oath under god.

So what if that person is a Atheist does he still have to take the same oath even if he does not believe in god?


I mean this is a amazing case which i have never stopped to think about because the Oath is where you swear to tell the truth under gods name which means people of all religious backgrounds can take it because they all believe in god. But what if you are a Atheist.

Linkalicious
you can lie your a$$ silly in order to get off scott free?

Kes
~I remember seeing a movie (or tv show)where the person didnt believe in God so he (?) didnt want to swear by the bible, but he swore to tell the truth. I guess it works the same way, just take the bible away. I mean no matter what you believe it aint God that is going to stop you from lying.

Dexx
ofcourse an oath on god wouldn't ahve a value for an atheist.
But even religious people lie when under ANY oath (sometimes)...
So i guess they'll just have to make them swera on their.....mother's grave? smile..just for the rules' sake

Kes
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you mom?
laughing

Fitch
I guess you have to take it....but it doesn't meen anything...so you can lie evil face...ofc afer that if they proove that you lied,they will put you in jail...but nevermind that big grin

The Force
personally i think they should keep it, it doesn't hurt anything, on the other and if they did take it out, you'd hear alot of noise from the Christians, unwanted noise.

Meant2be
It's forbidden by law to lie in court anyway, right?

The One Part 2
America was founded by religious men. Why shouldn't God be present in the symbols of the country? I really don't see what the big deal is. Nobody says the pledge with any meaning anyway. What the difference does a couple of extra words mean?

BackFire
I dunno, religious or not someone will lie to save their own ass most likely.

Oswald Kenobi
The oath in court is more symbolic than anything. It is against the law to lie while on the stand no matter whether you are an atheist or not. Perjury can carry a pretty heavy penalty here in the States.

The Omega
The Force> So are you telling me the oath should stay - or else the Christians will make "Unwanted noice"? Is that a threat? How about you get to the EVolution thread soon, and make some noice? Specifically the proof of creation you've promised me for weeks and weeks and weeks....

All> Here in DK, which is a secular state, God has nothing to do with lawmaking and the courts. You're under oath when giving testimony, and lying is an offence.

yerssot
the honorsystem wink

The Force
Omega I was stating that, that would be the thing that would happened, therefore i was just predicting. I'll post in it, but i 'll need to know if i can do something first...

finti
In Norway you swear on the Laws Of Norway

Gregory
America was founded by slave-holders. While we're at it, let's add shackles and chains to the symbols of the country.

finti
good call, by the way not all Americans are christians. Dont see why they should be forced to swear on the bible.

Baylin
Going on the principle that people swear on something they hold sacred would druids have to place their hand on a tree and swear to tell the truth... confused

Fire
well in belgium you can choose wether or not you want to use the bible it aint ordered, I actualy think they abolished the oath thingy, if they haven't they should.

I can understand that atheists find it offensive and maybe unconstitutional but I dont know enough about that, still the pledge is a few hundred years old I wouldn't change it now

Gregory
But "under God" wasn't part of the pledge of allegiance, originally. It was added durring the Cold War, when we were fighting "Godless Communism."

Fire
aah didn't know, then it can be removed

Oswald Kenobi
Let's not even go there. Many other countries had slaves also. And nobody brings up how many of the slaves were sold in slavery by their own people. If you want to make statements like that, research world history.

America was founded by people that were persecuted for their beliefs. Then the English came and brought slavery.



Yes that is true; not all Americans are Christians, but the country was founded by Christians. And you're right, people shouldn't be forced to swear on the bible. It's an outdated symbol, and some courts have moved away from it. What I want to know is why two words have to get everybody in such a huff. If the majority doesn't want them in, take them out. If the majority wants them in, they stay in. Isn't that how democracy works?

Gregory
I know that African tribes sometimes sold their own in to slavery. I didn't bring it up because it wasn't relevant to my point, which was that the Founding Fathers doing something does not make that something goodl.



Deists. At least, Jefferson was a Deist.

And no, Democracy does not mean that the majority get to trample on the rights of the minority. At least, it shouldn't mean that.

Lord Soth
Being an athiest myself, I just take stuff like that in stride. If I was ever in court, I would refuse to swear on the bible, but the Pledge of Alliegiance is irrelevant to me. Little kids are forced to say that over and over again in a monotonous tone every day until the words hold no meaning for them anymore. They've certainly lost their meaning for me.

Gregory
Hush up, Lord Soth. How am I supposed to argue that atheists are being oppressed if people like you come waltzing in announcing that they really don't care?

Some people are so inconsiderate...

Lord Soth
ummmmm.......ooops? stick out tongue

Oswald Kenobi
How is the majority rule trampling on the rights of the minority? The only thing I would like to see changed is the amount of majority.
The founding fathers incorporated their religious beliefs into the foundation of this country. Whether it's good or bad doesn't really matter now. I think it's worse to pick and choose what we want to honor about them. You have to take the whole or nothing at all.

The only practical argument for removing "under God" from the pledge is that was not originally there. That's a pretty powerful argument. The Supreme Court should send it back down to the appellate court without a ruling. That way it's removed, but there is no word of law that is should or shouldn't be there. Unless you put it to the American people to vote on, this is the only way to be fair to both groups.

Gregory
Forcing atheists to acknowledge the existance of God violates their rights. Not all of them mind saying the "under God" part--Lord Soth doesn't, and I don't--but many do. The whole point of the Constitution is to keep things like that from happening. A majority of Americans might want to force their religious beliefs on others, but the Constitution says that they don't get to do that. It might be undemocratic, but if I believed in God, I'd thank him for it. In his absence, I'll thank Jefferson and his lot.



The only mention of religion in the Constitution, which is what our country is founded on, is in the First Ammendmant, so I think you're wrong about this.

Joffy
I don't believe in god, but it wouldn't offend me if I had to swear on the bible. Would be nice to have the option though.

MCElite
You don't have to swear on the bible you can swear on the religious book of you choosing like the qu'arn or the tanahk i guess with atheist you just leave out the so help you god bit....

Julie
it should be an honest promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth...but today, more often it's just mere words people utter just because.....feeling nothing....really I believe people who claim to be atheists and don't want to swear on a Bible just like to argue....there are plenty of people who like to argue. sad but true

WaDe_N_sPaRrOw
if they stop swearing on the Bible and saying "so help you God" they will have to change alot of things in America... like on the coins IN GOD WE TRUST.... lines in the constitution have something reffeing to God in it (according to my Global teacher)... the pledge... i dont know why it is a big deal.... nd about the majority trampling on the minority thing... most americans are monotheistic... so ur saying that the minority should over rule the majority...?????no... 3/4 americans believe in A God.... so no offence but move to a diffrent country if you dont like it...

Julie
ha.....yes, God is a part of our heritage...one many desperately try to forget....but there are many Christians here...God is the ultimate in freedom...the catch all phrase people think of ( besides money and a whole slew of political negatives)...when referring to America

Oswald Kenobi
Not allowing believers in God to use words is violating THEIR rights. It's a catch-22 any way you look at it.





Check the Declaration of Independence, Gettysburg Address, and other speeches. There are references to God in them. Even the money has "In God We Trust" on it.

big gay kirk
Speaking as a man with O-Level Law... In the UK, if a person is giving evidence under oath in a court of Law, he or she will be sworn in with his or her right hand upon the Bible, unless it is shown that to do so is meaningless or abbhorrent to the person so swearing, when an alternative form of the oath may then be given... for example, a Muslim would be allowed to swear on the Koran, promising in the name of Allah... a Hindu will pledge by his or her Dharma... As a Pagan, I am allowed to swear on a ring, hammer or sword... unless the court decides that any such religious oath would be innapropriate or ill advised, in which case the person so swearing will be asked to "Affirm that the evidence you shall give is the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth," upon which the person so swearing shall say "I affirm." This affirmation is held then to be legally binding, and if it is found that the person affirmed has lied, or failed to tell the whole truth (Lie by Omission) he or she will be held to be in contempt, and will be guilty of perjury... Atheists therefore Affirm, and have done in this country for, oh, fifty years or more...

Lord Soth
There's something to be said for equality. It's only the idealism that was the basis of the ENTIRE country due to oppression from the King of England. But what you're saying is that we shouldn't all be equal: If we were truly equal, there would be no religious phrases on money. roll eyes (sarcastic)

realworlddreams
i have another question:
on my cell phone warranty page of the manual, the warranty doesnt cover damage to the phone by "ACT OF GOD"
if my phone breaks n they wont fix it because its an "act of god" can i swear im an athiest, sue them, and get a new phone?
(id sue based on religious persecution, seems fair to me, jus wonderin...)

oh, n since we're discussin legal matters:
will a 7-11 sell a minor O'Douls (non-alcoholic beer)?

Gregory
Rot. Maybe we should establish Christianity as a the official state religion? I mean, there are a lot of people who want that, aren't there? And we wouldn't want to "violate their rights," would we?



What about them? They're both speaches--one delivered by writing, one spoken--and have no legal value. They did not "found this country." And if I had my way, the money would not have that written on it.

WaDe_N_sPaRrOw
this is not just a christian issue... jews and muslins believe in one God... nd Jews Christians and Muslims make up 3/4 of this country!! so they shuld not change it..... i mean why change it for 1/4 of the country... its not rite... the majority rules... plain nd simple!!

Gregory
Yeh, and White people make up a majority of the country, too. So why should we have endeed segregation? Why bother fighting descrimination? The majority rules and to hell with everyone else!

Oswald Kenobi
So, we should agree with you and to hell with everybody else. So, Christians, Jews and Muslims shouldn't have the same rights as you? You're just being contrary. There is no substance behind your argument.





Excuse me, but the Delclaration of Independence DID "found" this country.


So we should cater to the minority and to hell with the majority. That's what you're saying, right?

Gregory
I don't mean to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? What "right" are we denying Christians, Muslims, and Jews? The right to force others to swear by their God? They never had that right.



No, it damn well didn't. We gained independance with the Treaty of Paris. But this country didn't really come into existance until the Constitution was ratified; the entity that was governed under the Articles of Confederation has since ceased to exist.



When the will of the majority violates people's civil rights, yes. Not only am I saying it, I'm proud of saying it. Look, I'll do it again: The majority does not have the right to oppress the minority.

Fire
that last part is certainly true gregory (hey we agree on somerhing)

the independence and the founding of a country can be heavily debated most countries proclaim themself a country before most of the world accepts it

Oswald Kenobi
Tell me, where do you live that it is a crime to NOT swear by someone else's God?




I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The Declaration of Independence created the soveriegn state. The Treaty of Paris only put in writing that Britain recognized America's right to exist. We were a functioning sovernty during the Revolutionary War.






How are yor civil rights being violated by the words "under God" in the PLedge of Allegiance? You are not required to say them.

Gregory
Well, the original issue was whether atheists had (or should have) to swear upon the Bible.



No, because we had no authority to declaire ourselves a soverign state. It would be like me telling the United States that my home is now a seperate country; saying it doesn't make it so.



I do unless I want the world to know that I'm an atheist. I don't care, but in certain very religious parts of the country, the social consequences of this could be extreme. For example, I could get beaten up.

Gregory
And wasn't it President Bush who said that atheists shouldn't be treated as citizens because "this is one nation under God"? Don't you think that not being able to pledge allegience to America in the same way as everyone else might give atheists the impression that they are unwelcome?

Oswald Kenobi
And in most courts, an atheist is not required to swear on a Bible. The person is informed by the court that they are considered under oath by the laws of the court. In fact, the last court I was in Again, where are rights being violated?





Yes, the Declaration of Independence was our proclamation that we were breaking off from Britain to form our own sovereignty. You don't need anybody's permission to be a sovereignty. Most of the Middle Eastern countries do not recognize Israel's right to exist, but it is a sovereign nation. In theory, you could work out an agreement with the government to declare your area an independent nation. You would be subject to taxes and tariffs like a foreign country. You would lose all of the rights given to you under the Constitution.





Yes, and the US governement would classify that as a hate crime. The offenders could be prosecuted. That isn't being oppressed by the institution, is the work of a few individuals.

Gregory
They're not; this thread is about two distinct issues (the Pledge and swearing in court), and it confused me for a moment,



But I can't become my own country just by saying I am; I'd need the governent's permission. And the rebel's did not have their government's permission.



Whether the government condones it or not, they are creating an environment conducive to it. And no, school children will probably not be prosecuted for beating up other school children--maybe suspended or something.


And Bush uses that blasted Pledge to explain why we atheists shouldn't be treated as citizens; do you think that that sort of thinking is rare?

Oswald Kenobi
The problem is land and nothing else. You would more than likely have to purchase the land from the government. You do not need permission to function as a sovereignty.





If parents press charges and can prove in court that you were beaten up for being an atheist, the kids would be prosecuted. I don't agree that the government is creating any environment of the kind.




I don't think it has anything to do with the pledge, but I agree with you that Bush is ramming religion (more to the point, Christianity) down the throats of the "non-believers." I will also agree that religious groups get their way much more than non-religious groups in this country. That MUST stop. But I don't believe the institution of government creates an evironment of religious intolerance.

Gregory
So you do need permission, in the sense that the government can refuse to sell you the land.




I doubt we will ever agree on this, but I'll give it one more try before agreeing to disagree. The kids who are picked on the most are the ones who are different. Whether it's your hair, your clothes, your accent, or just about anything else, being different is a sure way to be picked on (at least it was in my school). If atheist children don't want to say the "under God" part of the pledge, they don't have to, but they will set themselves apart. So they either must set aside their religious beliefs or be conspiculously different from everyone else, and thus be picked on. By having "under God" in the Pledge, the government is creating this situation.



I agree with almost everything you say in this paragraph. But I look at it this way: many Christians I have run into think that it's okay to persecute non-Christians because "this is a Christian nation." I believe that having "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance fosters this belief, and it gives these Christians something to point to and say, "here is proof that this is a Christian nation; we invoke our God in the Pledge!"

Lord Soth
Wow, you two really go at it.........

Well here's my response to all your bickering stick out tongue

This counrty, regardless of what sort of men were part of it's founders, was built on the idealism of the separation of church and state. This means that in government issues, the church cannot have a say. This applies to same-sex marriage, oaths, pledges, and everything of the sort

And another thing: America was also built on equality. To oppress a minority is against the very foundation of our country.

big gay kirk
Wow!!! So you can come to an agreement with the US government, and gain independence, and be treated like a foreign country! Wait... didn't the Confederacy try that? They called it seccession... and the US came to an agreement with them... it agreed to invade and whoop their asses! Mind you, I suppose that IS how America treats foreign countries....

Fire
could be wrong here, need to check but didn't the confederacy start the war? with an attack on a union fortress?

finti
the fortress Fort Sumtner was situated outside Charleston South Carolina, a state that secceded the union thus making the Fort an enemy fort to the Confederation. Brigadier General Beauregard of the confederate forces demanded the fort to surrender to with the fort/garison commander Anderson refused.

Fire
thx finti

Oswald Kenobi
Or you could take it by force. If you successfully held off the US military, you could negotiate a treaty with the US to recognize your sovereignty.




I've said it before, the Pledge of Allegiance should be exactly as it was originally written. I don't believe it had the words "under God" in it.





I don't know where you live that you are seeing this, but these people are total assholes. The United States is NOT and never has been a "Christian nation." The United States is a place where peoples of all races, creeds, religions, etc. should be able to practice their beliefs without worry of prosecution or condemnation. This is what the Declaration of Independence is all about. If you are experiencing what you said above, it goes against everything that this country is supposed to stand for.

Gregory
You said that the words "under God" should stay in if the majority wants them in. If you believe they should be taken out, I'm not sure why we're arguing about it.

Oswald Kenobi
Because it's become such a national issue. I truly believe that those like yourself that don't want it in, combined with those that don't care either way far outnumber the people that do. Put it to a vote of the people and let's see. I think you'd be surprised by the results.

I don't agree with some of the things you're saying. You never asked if I thought it should be in or not. smile

I'll put it to you this way, I'm a Christian and I don't care either way. The country's not going to hell if it's removed and it's not getting better if it's kept.

jE¬KiLL¬HYDe
Wow... I hope you two (Gregory and Kenobi) never meet in RL, I think you'd strangle each other... O_o But, really, intelligent debates, with substance... I haven't seen that very often.

Anyway... on to the actual topic: I wasn't raised in a remotely Christian school, nor was I raised in a Christian household, so the pledge of allegiance didn't really hold more to me than the teacher made me look at a flag and talk. I didn't believe in God in kindergarten - all I knew was that God was... just God, I didn't know what he was, and therefore I couldn't believe in him (Forgive me Christians for not capitalizing the pronouns... I never understood that ^_^). It was never talked about. Anyway... I have no objections to the pledge-- it doesn't hold any meaning in the sense that you aren't swearing under it. But the oath in court... I believe there should be an option, if you are atheist, to affirm as opposed to swear, but that Christians or whoever else swears to God should be allowed to. I don't think that "under God" should be mandatory. And from what you're all saying, it seems like some courts are realizing that.

Lord Soth
I was raised in a Catholic household, and I actually believed until shortly before I was confirmed. As I got older, I realized how little sense all of it made. And then, as I looked into it more, I found out all of the things that the 'righteous' did in the name of these so-called 'deities.' Horrific things: mass murders, propoganda, destroying whole groups of people (much like the things the Nazis did, I thought to my own horror). And then I realized that they do things like that to protect themselves, from their own fear of people's loss of faith.

So, shortly after I was confirmed (a little late, I know, damn it), I became a closet athiest. My parents still don't know. My dad is a hyper-religious, close-minded, bigoted, control freak of a bastard, so he wouldn't take it well.

There's my story!

Oswald Kenobi
It's really tough. Nobody should be persecuted for their religious beliefs... or lack thereof. The number one thing Christianity teaches you is that you love your neighbor as yourself under every circumstance. I guess that's why I've pulled away for the church-goers. Too much hypocrisy.

yerssot
that's the biggest bull that is/was/will ever be said about christianity roll eyes (sarcastic)

Gregory
I think it probably is Jesus's most important teaching, but I also think that Christianity as a religion has failed to live up to it.

yerssot
if you said "The number one thing Christianity teaches you is that you love your CHRISTIAN neighbor as yourself under every circumstance."
I would have agreed

Fire
he has a point there

ash007
no religous fighting please

Fire
true ash, eventho it aint a fight yes, let's cut it and remain on topic (tho the topic is religious)

Oswald Kenobi
No offense taken. It's what is said, not what is practiced. Sad there is such hypocrisy among such "enlightened" people.

jE¬KiLL¬HYDe
I personally think that people made up religion to explain things that they didn't know, taught this to their children, and over the generations, forgot that they made the religion up in the first place.

To whoever's Dad is closed-minded (forgot your name lol): my parents are highly religious, too... I think they'd freak out and disown me or sell me to the church if they knew I thought Jesus was a crock.

Most of the Christians I've met are, (not?) surprisingly, hypocrites. This is an example:

X: God damn it!
Y: Hey-- don't say that! That's un-Christian of you!
Y: *gets punched by X*
Y: JESUS F***ING CHRIST!!! *punches back*

What happened to "don't say the Lord's name in vain," eh? *sigh* You'll rarely see an Atheist getting into a fight over religion.

Okay... this post had very little substance... so Hyde's going to shut up now... ^_^

forumcrew
it doesnt mean anything anyway, they can still convict you of purgery if you lie

Hypernova
The main idea is to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth". I am not sure about this, but I think the court system have a few "religious texts" (ie the Bible, the Koran etc) to which people swear an oath to.

M®$ L¿ÑK
I'm an Atheist, but I never thought of that. Good point.

Although, I'm not planning on being dragged up in court for a felony any time soon, so I'm not particularly fussed stick out tongue

finti
could always be used as a witness though

Lord Soth
Being picky: it's perjury

The Force
it's true though... but it's pretty hard to do...

Ushgarak
Errr... the guy who said you can declare soveriegnty just by saying it... that is very significantly not so. The right to self-determination cannot be legally assumed by an individual.

In this age, the UN is the arbiter of self-determination rights. This only codifies what is generally true0 i.e. a country is a country when the world community recognioses it as such.

But when the right to US sovereignty was recognised, that meant it became valid from the point it was first declared, not from when the Treaty of Paris was signed!

Anyway, about this whole court swearing thing- does it not differ by State?

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