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I'm just asking why?

Maybe "worship" is too strong a word, yes?

Besides, she did give birth to the christian
God and savious, so that's good enough reason
to give her a higher place than any other mortal.

Also, christians also pay great homage to saints,
like St.Francis of Assisi for example, so such
"quasi-worship" is not restricted to Mary.

But maybe someone more familiar with Catholic
theolgy can explain this better, especially in light
of the fact that Eastern Orthodox, as well as
Protestant, christians don't do the same thing,
atleast not to the same degree as catholics.

I've learned that Catholics won't admit that they do worship their saints and the mother of Jesus (Mary)... they use the term VENERATION to Mary rather than WORSHIP her.

But I also learned that VENERATION is also a term for a lower level or degree of WORSHIP... but technically still WORSHIP.

so.........

...so they DO worship her.

Many Catholics I spoke to made it clear that they dont worship Mary, they honour her. Same goes for saints.

Yes. Maybe they won't admit, as I have said.

But a closer study reveals that the term VENERATION is a level of worship reserved for the angels, the Catholic saints and Mary... so they could distinguish the level of worship reserved for God alone, which is ADORATION.

But these two levels are still WORSHIP, am I right?

I have learned that according to the Catholic Catechism, WORSHIP has different levels:

1. Latria (Adoration) - worship reserved for God alone
2. Dulia (Veneration) - worship reserved for the angels and the Catholic saints
* Hyperdulia - a veneration (still worship) reserved for the Blessed Virgin alone

What do you think?

does it matter?

For me, I guess it does matter.

Catholic authorities have defined the term VENERATION as a level of WORSHIP... meaning VENERATION is still a form of worship.

But the Catholic followers do not admit such fact that they indeed worship Mary, the mother of Jesus.

So which is which... They worship her, or they do not?

The thread starter asked why... but Catholics may indeed answer they don't worship her... they VENERATE her like they do for angels and saints.

My question is this: Is VENERATION not WORSHIP with respect to the Catholic Definition?

and if it is you gonna start preaching about the first commandment?

finti, I know this doesn't matter to you. Why would you care?

Is it WRONG to care for a thread who ask questions like this?

Is it tolerable in this forum to answer a "Question" thread with stuff like "so what?"...

If this doesn't matter to you and doesn't care you at all... then don't answer. That's simple. And don't ask other posters who are just responding to the question at hand... when it doesn't mean for you.

so if they do worship Mary what does that do to you?

The Catholic Church worships Mother Mary for the same reasons they do everything! They make their own rules, and ignore The Bible, after all they have their own book! Yes Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but she is still totally human, she was a vessel by which our God could be born in the flesh! Mary still had to be in the upper room on the day of Pentecost in order to receive The Holy Ghost. The Bible clearly says the only one to worship, and the only one to be called Father is Jesus Christ!

so you say god and jesus are one

Nothing... if they admit that they 9catholics) really worship Mary.

But if they insist they don't. I'll show them that Catholic authorities doesn't say so. Catholic authorities admits they worship Mary -- the fact the followers don't admit.

The fact they worship Mary does nothing to me, that is their business, hopefulle eventually their eyes and heart will be opened to the truth.

truth being the way you see it?

I do not say it, but many scriptures inthe Bible say it, therefore I believe it! I go to a United Pentecostal Church, and believe me when I tell you the Lord God(JESUS) is present in our services! Father, Son, And Holy Ghost are Titles, Jesus is the NAME.The Bible says by no other name are we saved. John 10;30 Jesus says I and my Father are one. It also says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was made flesh and walked amongst us, but we knew him not. He is the great I Am, The First The Last, The Alpha and the Omega. When John had his vision of God onthe throne in the Book of Revelation,there was only ONE on the throne not 3. Also John 8;58 Jesus says Verily, Verily, I say unto you.Before Abraham was, I am>

well I dont believe in jesus as a deity so sorry I dont buy any of the jesus is present stuff at all

That is your right to believe what you want! I have to have things proven to me for me to beleive, and it has been proven to me! I pray in Jesus' Name that the truth will be revealed to you! Yoy have no idea how much the Love of Jesus Christ enhances Life! Take Care!

thats a bold statement since you know nothing of my past with christianity

I've also grew up in a Pentecostal church for most of my life. But I've also seen and heard of miracles in other denominations, catholics, shamans, Muslims, Hindus,and other faith healers.
I've also heard false words of God" . I've seen and heard of people speaking in tongues and most was gibberish, there are even classes that you can take to help you speak in tongues. Some believe that your not saved if you don't speak in tongues, which is not true, so I left that church.

No, I am nothing but a human being! Truth the way our Lord saw it All the instructions of how to live, how to worship, who to worship, even how to eat to remain healthy are written down in The Bible. He covered all bases! He has opened my eyes, and I pray everyones eyes will be opened to the joy of living righteously before our Lord. It is a wonderful alternative to living for worldly things! God Bless!]

Yes, the Bible does have a healthy diet in there and if you follow it, your body can heal it's self.

Originally posted by vicki horvath
That is your right to believe what you want! I have to have things proven to me for me to beleive, and it has been proven to me! I pray in Jesus' Name that the truth will be revealed to you! Yoy have no idea how much the Love of Jesus Christ enhances Life! Take Care!
Preach it! She is right.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, the Bible does have a healthy diet in there and if you follow it, your body can heal it's self.
Yes i agree.

Originally posted by finti
thats a bold statement since you know nothing of my past with christianity

Everyone passes through diffculties.Every difficulty is for God's glory. I dont know what you went throuh but i know my Jesus,my God lives.

so this god is the reason for my difficulties huh, guess some diety have their butt in debt for some asskicking then

I was having a discussion with a Catholic. He don't believe that Catholics worship Mary. They venerate her.

This veneration, however, is regarded as higher than the veneration they offer to their saints.

Catholic authorities distinguished these terms as:

Dulia and Hyperdulia.

These two are lower forms of WORSHIP.

Therefore, it shows that Catholics indeed worship Mary. I don't know why they do. Supplementary doctrines, maybe.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Catholics WORSHIP God by Latria.
Cathoics WORSHIP their saints by Dulia.
Catholics WORSHIP Mary by Hyperdulia.

Catholics do not worship Mary and their saints AS God.

But Catholics worship Mary as Queen of Heaven.
Catholic worship the Blessed Virgin by Hyperdulia.

Hyperdulia is a level or degree of WORSHIP reserved for the Blessed Virgin alone.

These facts, from the Catholic authorities themselves, prove that Catholics indeed worship Mary.

Isn't the Pope the King of the Mary Worshippers?

And also Infallible.

infallible how?

Catholic Church proclaims.. the Pope is infallible.

hmmmmmm well he cant speak Norwegian so................

Actually, Papacy... has erred a lot when we try to consult its roots and history... the condemnation of Galilee... the Inquisition.... Indulgencies... etc.

yeah and Pope Innocens III excommunicated the Norwegian King Sverre and decleard an interdict against the whole country in 1184 and it wasnt lifted until Pope Johannes Paul II visited Norway in 1989....it took them 804 years to lift the interdict no wonder we aint to found of catholicks up here

Originally posted by finti
yeah and Pope Innocens III excommunicated the Norwegian King Sverre and decleard an interdict against the whole country in 1184 and it wasnt lifted until Pope Johannes Paul II visited Norway in 1989....it took them 804 years to lift the interdict no wonder we aint to found of catholicks up here

Cool! Never knew that...

OH DAMN! 804 years of generation has gone to hell....

yeah me included, ..........yet the Norwegian were faithful devoted christians (catholics) until it was deceided that Norway should side with the protestants during the reformation........... Now though the church societies, any denominations , looses on all fronts. I saw we were at the bottom of the list of the European countries when it came to domestic percentage of religious people out of the total population.

I think England was excommunicatd few times too

Im so glad i grew up in a Catholic free society. No person has been burned to stake or killed in the name of Serbian Orthodox church.

In fact the only thing Serbain Orthodox has to do with Christianity is god and christ - all the rest is different, as our church permites, astrology, karma, ghosts, fortune telling, acknowledges reincarnaction, witchraft and random nature related rituals, which i found out, still stuck around from the anceints...

Originally posted by KurtW
I'm just asking why?

Because she is god's mother!jm

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I think England was excommunicatd few times too

Im so glad i grew up in a Catholic free society. No person has been burned to stake or killed in the name of Serbian Orthodox church.

In fact the only thing Serbain Orthodox has to do with Christianity is god and christ - all the rest is different, as our church permites, astrology, karma, ghosts, fortune telling, acknowledges reincarnaction, witchraft and random nature related rituals, which i found out, still stuck around from the anceints...

Your church acknowleges these things? Really?


Well here we were never excommunicated...We just burn witches.

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, she should never be worshiped, God the Father is the ONLY one that should be worshiped by anyone. worship of anyone else means u make Lucifer your master, Jesus was Gods only Son, nobody comes to The Father but through him and him alone. Jesus could have sinned anytime he wanted to but he knew in his heart that if he did so that would condemn everyone to hell, so he stayed the course and went through life like all of us but he never sinned giving everyone who comes to him eternal life. Mary must have not committed very much sin for God to chose her as the mother of his son. but still sin is sin and God can not stand sin.

if your god is so all powerfull and creator of it all, if he cant stand sin why did he create it then

Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
Because she is god's mother!jm
mary is god's mother?

jury why are you so hell bent on catholics?
If your really a believer of the scripture than you know that christ asks you to love those that you percieve to be lost and to pray for them and to talk to them in a loving manner about what you percieve to be wrong. You seem to me rather to be playing holier than thou kinda game. It doesn't represent christians properly and makes a further devision between two segments of faith that both believe in jesus christ. Christ didn't want devision, he wanted us to be as one, so if your so concerened about the catholics than maybe you should do some outreach for them and get a conversation going with them about what some possible mis interpratations thye may have from the bible.
I urge you, if thats whats important to you, to seek a loving heart and maybe play a active role in it.

Hi MovieJunkie23...long time no see...

sup debb

Actually, I have nothing against Catholics personally.

What comes strange to me is that if Catholics really believe in the scriptures - the Bible - then, why contradict most of its concepts?

Confusion raises questions.

That's why.

just like most christians do, so why should the catholics be any different. Jury dont act like your church society have monopoly on how to rightfully follow and interpreter the bible cause that aint so at all.

finti, the thing about god creating sin; it's another topic but, he didnt create sin.
He created humans with FREE WILL because he didnt want us to be worshipping robots. Thats what is so wonderful about humans- we can choose. So he gave adam the choice and he screwed up blah blah blah you know the rest.

if he created humans with free will this god of yours indirectly created sin.

bloddy hell double posting crap.

Well, this concerns most for Christians... not for the world's trashes.

so those who aint christians are worlds trashes?

Unless they turn to God.

now that was a very humane and christian way on looking on people of a different set of believe. The strange thing though is that I have a problem telling the difference between certain christians and the worlds trashes, to me they are very synonymous

I respect anybody's opinions, fins.

you respect them by calling others who aint of christian faith for worlds trashes, well its sure is a strange way of showing your respect

Very strange indeed.

at least you got that part tight

Well im not gonna call anyone world trashes...

Finti, so you actually think that free will is sin?

no, but with free will man was able to choose sin. Sin had to come from somewhere, and since the god you refer to is the creator of it all sin is a part of his creation too

Of course sin came from somwhere; originally the devil.

The sin resulted from what we did, not God... I just don't see how you can equate God sinning because he gave us free will.

It's like a parent watching their adult son or daughter leave the house and go off on their own. Do you think the parents should be responsible for everything bad their kids do when they are gone?

It basically is copping out from man's responsibilty that he sinned by saying God created it.

Now of course I'm speaking figuratively here because I don't know your exact beliefs on everything so what I may believe one way you may differ on.

god created everything, sin is a part of everything.

Like i said with the parental explination---

So the their son is an adult and he murdered 12 people. Since he is their "creation" would they be the ones to condemn?

What I am saying is this god who created everything included sin into his creation if not it wouldnt have been there for man to choose

It also has to do with the devil and his fall though; he was the first to succumb to sin and he isn't even a man. It didn't even start with Adam and Eve.

who created the devil?

why God of course, but it was the devil who challenged him-- now at that point it doesn't really say anything about free will, just that he was cast down from heaven because he thought that he was greater thant God and other angels joined him-- essentially a revolt.

man is the one who commit sin, yet it doesnt change the fact that it was from gods creation sin came about. If you buy the biblical stuff that is.........which I dont

Sin was invented by the Catholic Church! But you can buy your way out with the right amount of money...Indulgences.

Well then this is true if you want to look at it that way but another fact is that adam and eve and god are different and you can't blame someone else for the mistakes of another. Like I said, that's copping out for our mistake.

You didn't answer my question I had either. If the grown up son kills 12 people should we blame the parents?
I mean, the son came from the parents so why not blame them? The parents created the son and the murders came from their creation. This is why I don't agree with your opinion.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Sin was invented by the Catholic Church! But you can buy your way out with the right amount of money...Indulgences.

No, the parents shouldn't be blamed. We should all take responsibility for what we do, however, I think God is bigger then what the "Bible, or any other book teaches." BTW..I think we're off topic..lol

yeah we kinda are- so, um why do they worship mary?

My father is Catholic and he say that they don't...But I really do think that many catholics DO worship Mary...
MY father says that they petition her with their prayer..I guess they feel god is really busy and they don't want to bother him, so they go to other saints for petition.

no we shouldnt blame the parents, but it isnt the same scenario though cause the parents created their child that was there doing in this. While the god you believe in is the sole creator of everything including sin. It is mans choice to commit sin, it wasnt they who created sin though

Well really it is the devil who started it and he did "create" sin because his actions resulted in sin. But now you will say that it is God's fault because he created the devil.

I believe what I believe; you believe what you believe. I respect your opinion but I also see that this isn't going anywhere and Debbiejo is correct; we are off topic.

the devil oposed god for a reason, and the reason is that there was a path thad turned the devil away form god, the path had to come from somewhere. If you believe god created everything then this god is the reason for the different aspects of what everyhting are made up off if this aint to be so this god of yours aint all powerfull at all

There is a saying that Adam and Eve are an allegory..It goes like this:

Adam and Eve were part of the infinite being world with god, but they wanted to know what it would be like to experience the solid world..they eat the apple of knowledge of good and evil, and could no longer be as god was. As time went by they and their decedents forgot that they were more than their physical bodies and to this day people have forgotten what they had and why they are here. They don't even realize that they can use more of their brain then just the 5 percent.

Interesting huh??

Infact, this is more then a saying..A lot of people really believe this.

God wanted people to have a choice in what they are doing and not have things forced upon them- maybe an opportunity was created but the sin itself.

Guns offer an opportunity to break the law- its not the fault of those who created the gun or are selling it- its the fault of the person who uses the gun wrongfully.

Choice is the same thing- it is put in front of us and we have potential to do good or bad. It just so happens that WE screwed up-not God- and thats what I believe.

Eh, i dont know about that adam and eve thing- it is interesting but i think we can use more than five percent of our brains.

look, here's what i think and believe. God was and ever will be. Lucifer was once one of Gods' archangels and he decided to turn against god because he thought he should be greater than god. What he did was create sin by disobeying god and his rule. So since we are immortal and human, we sin every day and it is impossible to not sin. We worship Mary because she was a virgin all her life and lived without sin. She was the first (although mother of our savior) to be accepted into heaven as a human. She was not dead when god took her into heaven.

So you say it is impossible for us humans to live without sin and then you say mary lived her life without sin?

No actually the other man on the cross was the first to be accepted into heaven as a human because Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.

So you say it is impossible for us humans to live without sin and then you say mary lived her life without sin?

No actually the other man on the cross was the first to be accepted into heaven as a human because Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise.


ok, what i mean is that NOW we don't know the difference between sin and other things. Now i don't hink it matters to as many people. Mary and Jesus were both the only 2 people accepted.

so are you saying that we're screwed and can't get to heaven?

im confused

Originally posted by Echuu
Guns offer an opportunity to break the law- its not the fault of those who created the gun or are selling it- its the fault of the person who uses the gun wrongfully.

Choice is the same thing- it is put in front of us and we have potential to do good or bad. It just so happens that WE screwed up-not God- and thats what I believe.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Bullshit. If people did not have guns, they would not be able to kill one another with them now would they? The same goes for sin.

Furthermore, it was Eve that brought sin into the world, no Lucifer. You Christians certainly do not know The Bible very well.

If the story of Adam and Eve is to believed then they existed in a world with no knowledge of good and evil, and likewise, no knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. It is unfair for God to punish them for eating from the tree of knowledge because they did not know that disobeying God was wrong or even what wrong was. That is like leaving a three year old alone in a room with a knife and getting upset with him when he cuts himself.

Its not BS it is truth- guns are a weapon a person uses to kill another person.

Notice in headlines they will say so and so kills whoever, not gun kills man- and if there were no guns people will still be killing people--- think about it- we have only had guns for a few hundred years; plenty of people have fallen by the sword before that.

And about satan sinning--- Ezekial 28 verse 16 says otherwise- this is speaking about satan of course.....

Ezekial 28:16
"Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you SINNED. So I drove you out in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."
Now this didn't affect adam and eve right away obviously but he was the one who tempted them to disobey God, which was a sin also.


Wait a minute, i think i heard that thing about the 3 year posted before; well anyway, adam and eve were adults, not 3 year olds and God specifically told them NOT to eat from that tree.

who was responsible for puting that three there in the first place, and what purpose did the tree serve

So...nobody's believing that the story could be s an allegory??

that is a very good question- I myself am not 100% positive of the reason. But it was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so that must be what it was for.
There was a second tree also, the tree of life; God said you would surely die when you ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so maybe those two are just supposed to be exact oppisites--- the tree of life gives life(duh)and the second one gives death.

Like I said though, I'm not sure of it myself.

Originally posted by debbiejo
So...nobody's believing that the story could be s an allegory??

Not really though it is interesting as I said. I just don't really believe the brain part of it but it's thought provoking.

Because she had a kid while actually convincing people she was a virgin. If that's not spectacular I don't know what is.

Originally posted by Echuu
Its not BS it is truth- guns are a weapon a person uses to kill another person.

Notice in headlines they will say so and so kills whoever, not gun kills man- and if there were no guns people will still be killing people--- think about it- we have only had guns for a few hundred years; plenty of people have fallen by the sword before that.

I did not state that without guns, people would not kill one another. What I did state is that if there were no guns, people would not be able to kill one another with guns. Likewise, if God elimminated sin, people would not sin.



Originally posted by Echuu
And about satan sinning--- Ezekial 28 verse 16 says otherwise- this is speaking about satan of course.....

Ezekial 28:16
"Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you SINNED. So I drove you out in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."
Now this didn't affect adam and eve right away obviously but he was the one who tempted them to disobey God, which was a sin also.

Guess what? The story of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge and bringing sin into the world happens BEFORE Lucifer is cast from heaven. According to The Bible, Adam and Even brought sin into the world, not Lucifer. Hence, the concept of original sin stemming from the transgression of Adam and Even in the garden of Eden.



Originally posted by Echuu
Wait a minute, i think i heard that thing about the 3 year posted before; well anyway, adam and eve were adults, not 3 year olds and God specifically told them NOT to eat from that tree.

Adam and Eve were adults... with no knowledge of the difference between good and evil or right and wrong. Would you leave someone with no concept of right and wrong alone with a dangerous object and expect him to do the right thing eventhough he does not know what the right thing is?

A child should listen to his mother when she tells him not to play in the street; sometimes they are disobedient and get hurt; like adam and eve.

About satan; I know that the first sin for man and their fall resulted in them eating the fruit. I was saying that satan sinned when he tempted them; now of course satan is a spiritual being so his sin would be different compared to adam an eve since they are humans.

But the thing is that we are all off topic and should discuss the real issue which is about Mother Mary so I will refrain from posting anything else having to do with this subject.

Originally posted by Echuu
A child should listen to his mother when she tells him not to play in the street; sometimes they are disobedient and get hurt; like adam and eve.

The child who plays in the street and gets hurt does not get punished for disobeying his mother because he does not know any better. His mother is to blame because she should have not left him unattended.

Originally posted by 09rumss
We worship Mary because she was a virgin all her life and lived without sin. She was the first (although mother of our savior) to be accepted into heaven as a human. She was not dead when god took her into heaven.
Are you a Catholic too? I thought Catholics do not worship Mary?

Don't Catholics believe that Mary died?

Inconsistency in Catholic doctrines really confuses me. no2

hmm now the scripture clearly indicate that Jesus had siblings and the owrds of Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS the using of the word firstborn son indicates that other children(male children) were born by Mary, if not he should have used only born son.

So how could Mary been a virgin all her life?

I am sure there are classes that teach tongues, never heard of them. I was more than convinced about The HOLY GHOST and speaking in tongues as evidence when a 7 year old girl was baptized in Jesus' name and came up out of the baptismal water dancing and speaking in tongues tfor Jesus for at least 10 minutes, and you are right I do not know about your Christian background, if I insulted you I apologize!

I have known people that have attended churches that teach that unless you speak in tongues you don't have the Spirit..The sad thing is that these people really loved god, but could never speak in tongues..

How did Mary became a Co-Redemptrix as Christ being the Redeemer? Why is it that the consent of Mary is needed for Salvation? Catholics should explain this.

Not Catholic, but the Mary thing was taken from Paganism.

Uhuh...also the concept of Queen of Heaven is originally Pagan.

so is the virgin birth, the son of god sacrificed,resurrection of a deity

Originally posted by Jury
Uhuh...also the concept of Queen of Heaven is originally Pagan.


Yes it is...Study the roots back and you'll see it.

Yes.

And one thing. The Roman Church also claims that Mary owns the Church. Thus, calling the Church of Christ the "Church of the Mother of God".

Is it?

aint it?

Well, maybe the Roman Church indeed is the Church of the Mother of God... considering the position of Mary in the Church.

But, for me, it has nothing to do with the Church that Christ has built.

Originally posted by Jury
Yes. Maybe they won't admit, as I have said.

But a closer study reveals that the term VENERATION is a level of worship reserved for the angels, the Catholic saints and Mary... so they could distinguish the level of worship reserved for God alone, which is ADORATION.

But these two levels are still WORSHIP, am I right?

I have learned that according to the Catholic Catechism, WORSHIP has different levels:

1. Latria (Adoration) - worship reserved for God alone
2. Dulia (Veneration) - worship reserved for the angels and the Catholic saints
* Hyperdulia - a veneration (still worship) reserved for the Blessed Virgin alone

What do you think?


Nope, sorry, Catholic here. I dont worship Mary or the saints. I only worship God and Tom Welling.

So, let's just ignore the definition of Catholic Encyclopedia then?

Nope, if that's your belief it's all good with me. Im just telling you that as a Catholic, I MYSELF dont worship anyone but God. But then Im not your textbook Catholic either, there are quite a few things in the Catholic doctrine that I disagree with. Doesnt make me any less a person though. You have a tendency to talk down to people like you are "from the mountain on high" or something. Dail it back a notch and show some tolerance, unless of course you ARE the second comming. And if that's the case get off KMC and go fix the world.

That's the real Catholic.

Let me ask you ambrose... Do you know what does HYPERDULIA mean?

Catholics love Mary more, cause they have secret fantasies about her...That's why they worship her.....

well at least they worship a woman

Like all men.........

Originally posted by Jury
Well, maybe the Roman Church indeed is the Church of the Mother of God... considering the position of Mary in the Church.

But, for me, it has nothing to do with the Church that Christ has built. I am so glad that you distinguish between the Church that Christ build and the Catholic Church because there is a huge difference between the two. The church that Christ spoke of is the people who chose to follow Jesus as their Saviour while the other one is a building with men who run it that exalted themselves and twisted many scriptures to suit their bussiness called The Church.

Originally posted by sonnet
I am so glad that you distinguish between the Church that Christ build and the Catholic Church because there is a huge difference between the two. The church that Christ spoke of is the people who chose to follow Jesus as their Saviour while the other one is a building with men who run it that exalted themselves and twisted many scriptures to suit their bussiness called The Church.

The Predestines came from the Catholics. Before that time there was no other church. This idea that the Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus build is not supportable by history. The fact is that the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity at around 300 AD or so and there was no other church.

Catholics dont worship Mary, we honor her for who she is... she was pure and gave birth to Christ. She went through a lot knowing her son was going to die in the end. We dont worship her as such, but we do pray to her for intercession. The thought is that Jesus is as much Man as he is God, therefore he will listen to his Mother. Not necessarily do what she says because he is God, but he will listen to her.

you learned this by only reading the so called catholic encyclopedia

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The Predestines came from the Catholics. Before that time there was no other church. This idea that the Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus build is not supportable by history. The fact is that the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity at around 300 AD or so and there was no other church. Actually, the "church" remained a visible organization up to this date. And that's the Catholic Church. But the faith, doctrines and practices was changed when the Church Fathers took over the Church that Christ has built after the demise of the Apostles. The headship of Christ was changed by the Pope and the foundation of the Church who is supposed to be the Christ was changed into Peter whom they claimed to be the first Pope. It was prophesied that this Church will turn their back away from God... by embracing unscriptural doctrines including infant baptism, worshipping images and the relics of the saints, transubstantiation, Mass, rosary, Christmas, and even the divinity of Jesus. The apostles were right when they said that. The Church will go against the will of God in heaven...as the ancient Israel did - the Great Apostacy... the emerging of the "man of lawlessness - sitting on the throne of God - proclaiming himself as God".

The Church - the woman who is supposed to be adorned with glory as a bride - now committed adultery in the sight of God.

Originally posted by finti
you learned this by only reading the so called catholic encyclopedia Catholic Encyclopedia is a reliable source of Catholic doctrines and practices - according to Catholic authorities themselves. Hyperdulia is also a part of the Catholic Catechism and the accurate definition was rendered by the Catholic Encyclopedia.

just had to ask since since thats what you tend to ask those who see things differently than you, but I assume you once was a catholic since you have such and obvious grudge to their ways

I have Catholic friends. I used to ask them. I want to challenge their faith in return because they also used to ask about my own belief. I tend to answer them with the help of the Bible. Everytime I ask, all they can answer is "I don't know". So what they know about their faith? I'm asking the same here. If Catholic individual refused to claim they worship Mary but why their doctrines and authorities saying different? What have the priests done to them? "I don't know?"

ever dawned on you that even catholics can have individual thoughts about faith, and faith should be individual it should be personal.
Gatherings in big congregations to show faith and practice it is to me a gathering of people who question ones faith, they need recognition reassurance of others to be comforted of their own faith all until the next meeting.......so they who attend churches are , to me , weak in their faith

That's according to your opinion.

Worship services is God's commandment to His people.
Preserving the unity inside the Church. Unity in faith and works.
To us True Christians, it is an obligation.

guess thats why I put "is to me" in there

weak in faith

Not according to our True God - the Father. If you view it a "weak faith", it doesn't matter. But, again I respect your opinion.

then your god is not the biblical one

That's according to you.

The Catholics do NOT worship Mary....they use her as a telephone line...just as you use your pastor, Jury....It's a go between thing.

Satan has them deceived with apparitions of the sleeping dead, like mary and others who are awaiting the 2nd coming when the graves shall be opened.

Could be that they are drunk with the wine (false doctrine) of babylon.

ohh vampires...............originally and old egyptian legend

what if the gospels are the false doctrine

Good question for someone who just woke up.....And Babylon is the organized church.....

Could be...sure could.

Originally posted by finti
ohh vampires...............originally and old egyptian legend

what if the gospels are the false doctrine

They are...

And the mark of the beast is your credit card number, a number on the forehead and on the hand. The number on the forehead is you number in you mind and the one on the hand is the card in your hand.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The Predestines came from the Catholics. Before that time there was no other church. This idea that the Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus build is not supportable by history. The fact is that the emperor Constantine converted to Christianity at around 300 AD or so and there was no other church.
If you read the Bible you will see that there were already churches in the time of the apostles, eg. churches in Corinth, churches of Galatia, Ephesus, Phillippi, Colosse, chuch of the Thessalonians and in Rome. Constantine may have founded the Catholic Church if that it true, but not the early churches as they were established by the apostles.

Jesus who was called Christos, "Anointed, "took his title from Middle-Eastern saviors gods like Adonis and Tammus, forn of the Virgin Sea-goddess, Aphrodite-Maria, or Ishtar-Mari...Jesus was a composit of many gods...Middle Eastern traditions always had a long line of slain and cannibalized Saviors extending back to prehistory. At first kings, they became king-surrogates or sacred..

Constatine was to be on the side that group that "won" through of the groups offollowers of a man called jesus. The side that got to deciede on the how`s and what`s. And they swept all "competition" that had other views than the one they deceided on away

Yes, they tried to burn all other writings but the ones they considered for their own cause...then persecuted the people who still held on to those other beliefs. For instance there were writings that talked about Jesus not being the one that was crucified and laughing about that fact...The church took all who believed this and made them sign confessions that they no longer believed this and that the man laughing was a stranger and not Jesus...