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I have a rough Marvel Hierarchy that, I think, was originally posted by Beyonder. It's gone through a few revisions by other members, and I've made some changes of my own to my personal hierarchy, but I was curious as to where a few characters fit into it...

The characters in question are Tyrant, Xorn, Gravitron, and Mr. Majestic (?). I have a rough idea of their power, but no evidence (i.e. comics) to back it up (well, one with Xorn...but it barely counts)
so...
A. Is MM even Marvel?...He's not in the Marvel Directory, and I know very little about him except for the Scoobless vs. Khellendros tournament thread, which peaked my interest.
and 2. About where should they be?...my hierarchy (with a nod of thanks to Beyonder and anyone else who edited it or pointed out corrections) is below...


1. TOAA
2. HOTU
3. Living Tribunal
4. IG
5. Pheonix Force
6. Death
7. The Infinites
8. Eternity/Infinity/Galactus (full power)
9. Oblivion
10. The Celestials/Franklin Richards (full p.)
11. Master Order/Lord Chaos/Sentry
12. Chronos/X-Man (full p.)/Onslaught
13. Love/Hate
14. Eon/Epoch/Chton/Stranger/In-Betweener/Beyonder/Oshtur/Agamotto/Hoggoth/Galactus (normal power)
15. Ego the Living Planet
16. Dark Gods/Elder Gods
17. Eternals
18. Korvak
19. Shaper of Worlds
20. Hyperstorm
21. Dormammu/Shuma Goroth/Franklin Richards (normal power)/X-Man (normal power)
22. Demogorge the God Eater
23. Set/Cyttarok/Atum the God Eater/Demiurge/Gaea/Molecule Man
24. Odin/Zeus/Zuras/Asgardian Destroyer/Shaman
25. Pantheon of Gods/Kubik
26. Mephisto
27. King Thor/Thanos
28. Beta Ray Bill/Adam Warlock/Silver Surfer/Hulk (full power)
29. Thor/Drax/Morg/Gladiator/Terrax the Tamer/Dr. Strange
30. Captain Universe/Quasar/Gabriel the Airwalker
31. Genis-Vell/Blackheart/Loki
32. Super Skrull/Annahilus/Blaastar/Black Bolt/Firelord/Apocalypse
33. Atleza/Holocaust/Nova/Nimrod/Ultron/Mandarin/Cable (without virus)
34. Magneto (full p.)/Cable (with virus)
35. Vision (ful p.)/Professor X/Jean Grey/Abomination/Champion
36. Juggernaut/Hulk (normal power)
**37. Super Human Level 4: Thing/Colossus/Iron Man/Wonder Man/Namor (in water)/etc.
**38. Super Human Level 3: Spider-Man/Ghost Rider/Vision (normal power)/Rogue/Namor (out of water)/Venom/etc.
**39. Super Human Level 2: Captain America/Sabertooth/Wolverine/Daredevil/etc.
**40. Super Human Level 1: Jubilee/Toad/etc.

** denotes that there are many heroes/villians in these groups...the ones listed are only examples of rough power levels. Sub-groups could be formed from these groups but that would prove both exhausting and controversial at best.

...any others I might have left out would be greatly appreciated too.

-DM

man, that list has some serious flaws...... by the way, Martian Manhunter is DC.... big green guy....... cape...... Superskrull is too high, you have Beta Ray Bill above Thor when they have exactly the same power, i dont think Cyttarok should be above the sky fathers (Odin , Zues etc) full power magneto is about 2-3 places too low........ you have Vision above the Juggernaut...............


if i were you i wouldn't use that list as your main source of info

which is why I'm posting it here...it's the best I have to go off of at the moment...so revising it through inquiries like this one are my best option. And I also don't take the list as Gospel...it's more like a vague reference since remembering all these characters is a chore.

MM didn't stand for Manhunter. It stood for Mr. Majestic...sorry for the confusion.

-DM

ahhhh....... Mr Majestic is Wildstorm comics...... basically Superman but with a harsher attitude........ i think

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/m/majestic.htm

http://www.comicsvf.com/scans/vodc/mrmajestic/1.jpg

and when people say "MM" in these threads it almost always refers to Martian Manhunter....... unless another character is being discussed....... my mistake

No problem....but the question still stands everyone. Flawed hierarchy or not, about where do Tyrant, Xorn, and Gravitron belong...even if you can only provide a general area where they would be...because right now I know pitifully little about any of their levels.

-DM

P.S. but I'll be making some adjustments Scoob...that much closer to having a respectable, working hierarchy.

personally i would put Graviton just above regular Thor but below Odin possibly closer to Thanos than Odin...... it gets tricky doing this..... i think you may need to add more levels....i'd go Thor, then Graviton (but not by too much) then Thanos, then Odin

if anyone thinks i'm wrong correct me as i'm not 100% sure

Didn't mean for this thread to be a Digimark/Scoobless dialogue, but thanks for the input.

-DM

I think a lot of this is subject to opinion. People's opinions of characters vary wildly, as some people put a lot of emphasis on a character's low showings, and others put too much emphasis on a character's high showings. For example, X-Man is listed as being #12 - Nate Grey is one of the 12 most powerful beings in the Universe? Higher than Love/Hate (two abstract beings)???? Not to me, but other people might go by some obscure reference in X-men #xxx where someone said, "He's got the potential to be a peer of Eternity", perhaps completely talking out of their ass, but some people will take that and use it as evidence that Nate is indeed more powerful than Love and Hate.

I'd say this hierarchy either needs a LOT more categories, or A LOT fewer. I'm leaning towards fewer. Once you get to earthbound heroes and villains, like Apoc, Thor, Magneto, Graviton, BlackBolt, Hulk, etc., it's all basically the same. Some just have been shown in more favorable lights than others by certain writers.

Moving

I'd agree that fewer spaces are needed and that we are missing a few marvel powerhouses in our list. let's try on this one

1. He Who Stands Above All
2. The Living Tribunal
3. The Infinites/ True Beyonders
4. Eternity/Infinity/ Galactus (full potential)
5. Infinity/Oblivion
6. Exitar/Dreaming Celestial/Arishem
7. Master Order/Lord Chaos
8. Mistress Love/Master Hate
9. Eon/Epoch
10. He Who Summons/Kronos
11. Agamotto/Hoggoth/Oshtur
12. Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Kosmos
13. In-Betweener/Phoenix Entity
14. Tyrant/The Designate
15. Stranger/Uatu/Grandmaster
16. Demogorge/Desak
17. Chthon/Gaea/Set/Cyttorak
18. Odin/Zeus/Vishnu
19. Thanos/Mephisto/Dormammu
20. Gladiator/Beta Ray Bill/Silver Surfer/Thor (regular)
21. Magneto/Apocalypse/Xavier
22. Hulk/Juggernaut/Abomination
23. Colossus/Thing/Namor/Wonder Man
24. Rogue/Spider-Man/Vision
25. Captain America/Wolverine/Daredevil

From what I've read in the past I would think Demogorge, Thanos, Mephisto, Dormammu, Gaea, Set, Chthon, Tyrant and Cyttorak would outrank the Phoenix Entity. Also I don't think Epoch is as powerful as Eon. But other than that I think it's pretty accurate.

where is the Marvel Brother at??? i would put him at #4. also isn't Mephisto suppose to be the Devil in the Marvel Universe? so shouldnt he be listed higher then just ummm 19?????

I think one sollution that may help is to first do a list of the
Cosmic Beings only, excluding earthlings and Skyfathers.

Also excluding the IG and HOTU, as they are objects not
beings.

The magical/mystical beings, like Dormammu and Mephisto
are tougher to call. Maybe they should be put in brackets
since their magical powers are difficult to measure against
normal beings.

Then from there we can get to those below.

Just a suggestion.


Incidentally, I don't think the Cosmic Cubes should be put
higher than the Phoenix.

marvelwiseman, i'd put Dormammu above Thanos...... but that may just be me..... what does anyone else think?

although i'm not sure that he'd reach the Odin catagory.... hmmm...... it's awkward trying to pigeonhole everyone

Dormammu will slap Thanos in or out of his dimension. He's freaking crazy. He could very well defeat the likes of Odin and Zeus, Odin slapped Thanos around, and he took all of Thanos's hits like nothing.

i think we should all try very hard to point people towards a consented upon hierarchy. it could limit threads like wolverine v thanos...that said:

TOAA
Living Tribunal/True Beyonders
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Phoenix Force
Oblivion/High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
Galactus/Abraxas/Other Celestials
Master Order/Lord Chaos/Chronos
Stranger/Kosmos/Shaper of Worlds/Kubik
Korvac/Tyrant
The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Uatu
Atum the God-Eater (after absorbing)/Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath/Cyttorak
Zeus/Odin/Surtur
Thanos/Doctor Strange
Thor/Silver Surfer


i'm confused about where to put dormammu, hyperstorm, sentry, quasar, new magneto, new scarlet witch...any suggestions?

the first list started to make sense until about 6. the abstract entities like death, oblivion, chaos, order, love, hate all should be at the same # cuz thats what they are abstracts so they are the same power lvl. then directly below them you would start with the celestials/ infintes/ franklyn/ galactus and so forth. then the skyfathers and the high order cosmics below them eg. Ego, thanos, chronos(the eternal not zeus father) dakd gos elder gods. BTW superskrull is definaltey too high up i am at work now so i ownt have MY list until later

Just a quick look, gotta say Silver Surfer has beat Mephisto at least once in his own realm.

does anyone have any bones to pick with my list? i know it's incomprehensive, but i think it is a pretty good order.

except for strange's to high placement.

where would you put the Infinites?..... Eternity was completely helpless against them...... they may kick LT's a$$

i'm unfamiliar with the infinites, but if they kicked eternity's ass the only place to put them is on the true beyonder/LT level.

Holy crap...forgot this thread got moved here. That original list was obviously flawed. I've changed it a ton since then. Here's my newest one...

I left HOTU and IG but took out abstracts for right now...

1. HOTU
2. Living Tribunal
3. IG
4. Pheonix Force
5. Galactus (full power)
6. The Celestials/Franklin Richards (full p.)
7. Beyonder/Tyrant/Sentry/Galactus (normal power)
8. Chton/Onslaught/Shaper of Worlds/Kubik/Molecule Man
9. Ego the Living Planet
10. Dormammu/Franklin Richards (normal power)
11. Odin/Zeus/Zuras/Asgardian Destroyer/Cyttarok/King Thor
12. Thanos/Mephisto/Champion of the Universe
13. Adam Warlock/Silver Surfer/Genis-Vell/Loki
14. Thor/Drax (w/gem)/Gladiator/Dr. Strange/X-Man (Nate)/Quasar
15. Magneto (full p.)/Blackheart/Terrax/Gravitron
16. Annahilus/Blaastar/Cable (without virus)/Black Bolt/Firelord/Apocalypse/Nimrod
17. Holocaust/Ultron/Mandarin/Captain Universe
18. Jean Grey/Super Skrull/Cable (with virus)
19. Professor X/Vision/Juggernaut/Hulk (full power)
**20. Super Human Level 4: Thing/Abomination/Colossus/Iron Man/Wonder Man/Namor (in water)/etc.
**21. Super Human Level 3: Spider-Man/Ghost Rider/Rogue/Namor (out of water)/Venom/etc.
**22. Super Human Level 2: Captain America/Sabertooth/Wolverine/Daredevil/etc.
**23. Super Human Level 1: Jubilee/Toad/etc.


** = Many heroes/villians at these levels...too many to list. Those listed are only examples.

Also, I think that trying to make a definitive hierarchy would never work, but that discussion like this helps to bring us all to a collective argreement on general power levels.

If more people saw this thread, there wouldn't be as many Wolverine vs. Apocalypse or Rogue vs. Adam Warlock threads (never seen the Rogue/Warlock thread, but it's just an example).

-DM

haha! a theory has come up in the Dark Phoenix v Krona thread that the phoenix force (and by proxy white crown/dark phoenix) are THE top dogs in marvel. the thread logically supposes that the phoenix force is just another name for Creation, aka God/TOAA with that said...

TOAA
Phoenix Force/White and Dark Phoenix (with the full force power)
Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/The Infinites
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion
Galactus/Abraxis/High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant
Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds
The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Uatu
Stranger/Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
Zeus/Odin

that's my list all the way down to skyfather.

Well, hoorayforpeepee has a few different people than me (my list is somewhat incomplete) and in a slightly different order, but Skyfather is #11 for both of us...

I've noticed a (slight) trend like that in people's lists and opinions...somewhere around 10 (give or take a few) power levels above Skyfather within Marvel Universe.

I don't buy Pheonix Force being above LT. It's a theory, nothing more. Besides, I don't want to give any more ammunition for the Pheonix fanboys...

-DM

TOAA
TRUE BEYONDERS
THOTU
FULL POWER FRANKLIN RICHARDS
LIVING TRIBUNAL
INFINITY GAUNTLETT
ENTROPY, APIPHANY, ABRAXAS
THE INFINITES
ETERNITY, INFINTY, DEATH
PHEONIX FORCE
MASTER ORDER, LORD CHAOS
OBLIVION
LOVE, HATE
THE FALLEN ONE
MEPHISTO{IN HIS OWN REALM}
SENTRY
THE ULTIMATE NULLIFIER
FULL POWER GALACTUS
CELESTIALS
KOSMOS
NORMAL COSMIC CUBES
EGO THE LIVING PLANET
DORMAMMU
CAPTAIN UNIVERSE
FULL POWER NATE GREY
FULL POWER CABLE
THE WATCHERS
HYPERSTORM
THANOS
MEALSTORM
CAPTAIN MARVELL
SILVER SURFER
ADAM WARLOCK
QUASAR

your list is all out of whack...

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
your list is all out of whack...
i agree

y does every1 keep saying that

even there avaters were celestial classOriginally posted by Scoobless
where would you put the Infinites?..... Eternity was completely helpless against them...... they may kick LT's a$$

yea but in the end one of the infinites had to sacrifice themselves to restroe ONE PUNY GALAXY

youre putting franklin richards wayyy to high. we dont know what his full power version will be like. and right now he has no powers.

TOAA
INFINITE BEING
TRUE BEYONDERS
THOTU
LIVING TRIBUNAL
"CURRENT" FRANKLIN RICHARDS
INFINITE GAUNTLETT
THE INFINITES
ENTROPY, APIPHANY, ABRAXAS
ETERNITY, INFINITE DEATH
MASTER ORDER, LORD CHAOS
THE PHEONIX FORCE
LOVE, HATE
THE FALLEN ONE
SENTRY
THE ULTIMATE NULLFIER
ONSLAUGHT{as he died, not at full potential}
DORMAMMU{full power}
KOSMOS{cosmic cube}
THE INBETWEENER, FULL POWER CYTARROK
FULL POWER GALACTUS, MEPHISTO IN HIS OWN REALM
EGO, MAGUS
CELESTIALS
FULL POWER NATE GREY, FULL POWER DR STARNGE WITH PREP TIME
FULL POWER CABLE
ATUMN THE GOD EATER, HYPERSTORM
GAIA
ODIN, GRAND MASTER
THE FORGOTTEN ONE, THANOS, WATCHERS
{SURFER, THOR, MARVEL II, ADAM WARLOCK, BLACK BOLT, MEALSTORM, QUASAR}
FULL POWER GAMBIT, FULL POWER APOCALYPSE
LOWER LEVEL ELDERS, PROTEUS, ZEUS
FULL POWER MAGNETO, ASGARDIAN DESTROYER, HERCULES

cool ^

now i think thas a pretty good list from my point of view and it doesnt mention full power franklin richards or full power onslaught, because ur right fiery balrog, we dont know their full potential yet and cant be 100 percent sure of what they can do. but their previous power levels were just an intelligent guess, seeing as what franklin has already shown at even a fraction of his potential.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
now i think thas a pretty good list from my point of view and it doesnt mention full power franklin richards or full power onslaught, because ur right fiery balrog, we dont know their full potential yet and cant be 100 percent sure of what they can do. but their previous power levels were just an intelligent guess, seeing as what franklin has already shown at even a fraction of his potential.

1. If by full power gambit you mean New Sun you're making the same mistake many people make. He's not as powerful as you may think. it was the process that created him that destroyed his Universe.

2. Apocalypse two levels higher than Magneto

~wickerman~

no im not referring to the destruction of the universe thing, i know that he destroyed an entire planet with kinetic enrgy manipulation once, from that i deduce his place in the hierchy. and i think that the mainstream apocalypse is stronger than magneto.

finally a voice of reason.....I don't magneto is weak or anything..but regular Apoc is stronger..he's eating right and on a low carb diet.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no im not referring to the destruction of the universe thing, i know that he destroyed an entire planet with kinetic enrgy manipulation once, from that i deduce his place in the hierchy. and i think that the mainstream apocalypse is stronger than magneto.

Apocalypse has NOTHING to do 2 places above Magneto. Just because he killed him ONLY in AoA doesn't mean he couldn't here as well. Anyway, simply because of his new powers (like i dunno....creating a black hole????) he should be a bit higher i should think, and Apoc a bit lower.

As for New Sun you're referring to the process in which he was created. That's what i'm saying. He's not really that strong. And he goes down quickly like most energy manipulators. By overloading him.

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Mainstream
finally a voice of reason.....I don't magneto is weak or anything..but regular Apoc is stronger..he's eating right and on a low carb diet.

he's got diabetes and needs low carb diets? Seriously now, i'm just waiting for Xplosive to come over here with his excellent arguments. He'll talk you into placing Apocalypse next to TOAA, because Apocalypse is TRUE EEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLL


~wickerman~

Think Apoc problem is he has a lot of power..but he can't tap into it properly and yes just because AoA Apoc lost to AoA Mags doesn't mean Magneto is stronger than Apoc..I mean Spidey once beat Juggy..but does that mean that Spidey is stronger than Juggy?

Originally posted by Mainstream
Think Apoc problem is he has a lot of power..but he can't tap into it properly and yes just because AoA Apoc lost to AoA Mags doesn't mean Magneto is stronger than Apoc..I mean Spidey once beat Juggy..but does that mean that Spidey is stronger than Juggy?

no it doesn't. But this isn't strength hierarchy. This is simply "hierarchy". That implies that if you place x against y who is on a higher position y will undoubtebly win. And that's not the case here IMO. Anyway, i think there's a Magneto vs. Apoc thread in the vs. forum. if you want pm me and we'll take it there

~wickerman~

oh no you didn't....you did..whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa..duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude..you went there...you totally went there

did captain marvel ever beat all the asgardians and king thor? im a bit hazy on that incident.

MY HYERARCHY:


OMNIVERSAL LEVEL


-TOAA (God of all multiverses:Marvel,Dc...)


MULTIVERSAL LEVEL

-The Crown-The Phoenix Force in its ultimate aspect (the primal force of Creation which spawns all universes)
-HOTU
-Living Tribunal
-True Beyonders/Starbrand/Multieternity (entities which embody a Multiverse)
-Possibly a multiversal principle of Death/Oblivion


MULTIVERSAL-UNIVERSAL LEVEL

-A White Phoenix of the Crown (highest level Avatar)
-Nth Man (living interdimensional vortex,destroyed 8 universes)
-Infinites?
-Abraxas
-the Hunger


UNIVERSAL LEVEL

-Infinity Gauntlet/Infinite Being
-Ultimate Nullifier
-Major Abstracts: Eternity/Infinity/Epiphany/Order/Love
and Death/Oblivion/Enthropy/Chaos/Hate
-Destiny Force,Enigma Force
-Karanada
-Uni-Lord


LEVEL 1

-Reality Warpers

James Jaspers/Franklin Richards (full power)/Alphie o' Meaghan/ current Scarlet Witch (?)/The Dreaming God (Marvel Fanfare)/The Great One (Silver Surfer:Homecoming)/Zalkor (from AW & IW) /Thanatos (Rick Jones with Destiny Force)


-Mystical-Extradimensional Beings

The Vishanti/The Trinity of Ashes/Zom/Dormammu (with all the power of the Faltine)/Inbetweener/The Fallen Stars (from Man-Thing)/ Scrier/The Other


-Cosmic Beings

Super-Ego (Ego at Galaxy level,it took hundreds of Celestials to defeat him)/Goblin Force (from Mutant X)/Galactus (full power)/
Celestials/Absolutes (from Galactic Guardians)/Tyrant (original level)/Hawk God of Arcturus (original level)/Walker/Vortex (seen in Inhumans)


LEVEL 2


-Reality Warpers

Impossible Man/Franklyn Richards/Hyperstorm/Cube Beings/Molecule Man/Kelly (from Captain Marvel)


-Mystical-Extradimensional Beings

Shuma-Gorath/Major Elder Demons,Old Ones /Atum-Demogorge/
Chton/Individuals of Vishanti-Trinity of Ashes//Those who sit above in the Shadows/ King Thor(?)


-Cosmic Beings

Galactus (normal,not hungry)/Ego/Korvac/Sphinx (after absorbing computers of Xandar)/Supernova (with the full power of Xandar)/Chronos/Overmind/Bete Noire/Minor Abstracts (Origin,Sayge,Numinus)


LEVEL 3


-Reality Warpers

Onslaught


-Mystical-Extradimensional Beings


Major Skyfathers (Odin,Zeus)/Surtur with the Sword of Twilight/Cyttorak and the others in the Octessence/Mephisto (in his realm)/Set/Gaea/Dormammu (normal)/Armies of Darkness (Llan)/Armies of Light/Dragon of the Moon/Ruler of Limbo


-Cosmic Beings


The Stranger/Watchers/Kahtylis/The Keeper/Magus (Technarchy)/
/High Evolutionary (highest level,but varies more than anyone)/Prime Eternal/Sentry (?)


LEVEL 4:HERALD+


-Reality Warpers or next to

Jamie Braddock/Shaman X-Man/Legion/Qabiri/Apocalypse Prime (?)



-Mystical-Extradimensional Beings

Other major Gods,Gods of Death and Hell Realms (Hela,Ymir, Pluto, Neptune,Hellstrom as ruler of a splinter realm of Hell,etc.)


-Cosmic Beings

Thanos/Magus/Binary (full power)/Starhawk (merged)/Genis-Vell (full power)/Sentry (?)/Morg with WOL/Fallen One/Starstalker II (seen in Power Pack)/Ul'ula'ns (Nebulon)/Monitors (Nygorn)/Elders of the Universe/ Dr.Strange (with time to cast spells)


HERALD LEVEL


-Mutants and such

Cable (full power)/New Sun/Magneto (with Upgrade)/Meggan (full power) /Graviton/Apocalypse/Lila Cheney/Exodus/other Omega Mutants (powers potentially on planetary scale,possibly more)


-Mystical-Extradimensional Beings

Thor/Nightmare/Dweller in Darkness


-Other Cosmics,Eternals

Heralds of Galactus/Ultimus/Beta Ray Bill/Quasar/Her-Kismet/Adam Warlock/Drax/Gladiator/Black Bolt/Sersi/Thena/Ikaris


LOWER...


-Annhilus/Blastaar/Holocaust/Hulk (enraged)/Invisible Woman/Human Torch (nova)/Proteus (only line of sight reality warping)
-Hulk/Namor (wet)/Hercules/Wonder Man/Ghost Rider

and too many others to mention....


A few things:


1) Gambit/New Sun did not destroy his Universe,only its alternate Earth.
2) As for Genis,yes he toyed a bit with the Asgardians (and defeated Heimdall easily) but he did not really fight King Thor,he was more showing off with his universal consciousness.
3) Magneto created a wormhole.It has nothing to do with a real Black Hole.

it's not a black hole it's an african american hole...get it right people tongue12

Pretty nice list Markolin. It's a little hard to follow, and I'm not sure I agree with everything on it (such as Scarlet Witch, even current SW, being on par with full-power Franklin Richards, or guys like Morg, Strange, and the Fallen One being at the same level as Thanos), but that's what forums are for anyway...I wouldn't put down a hierarchy that has the basic power levels and orders done pretty well.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Pretty nice list Markolin. It's a little hard to follow, and I'm not sure I agree with everything on it (such as Scarlet Witch, even current SW, being on par with full-power Franklin Richards, or guys like Morg, Strange, and the Fallen One being at the same level as Thanos), but that's what forums are for anyway...I wouldn't put down a hierarchy that has the basic power levels and orders done pretty well.

-DM

About Scarlet Witch I'm probably going by rumours that her powers will not only reshape our Earth but affect the entire Universe or even Multiverse (as seen in previews).Plus,she's a Nexus Being and as such she is connected to an extradimensional source of power and has been incredibly powerful once before.
Strange is difficult to place because he doesnt really have power on his own,but his spell can draw upon the power of many powerful beings.
Beings in the same range dont need to be exact equals.There can be gradations.The point is that both Thanos and Morg with Wol are above beings like Thor,Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill but below Skyfathers or Watchers.

not a perfect list markoloin but better than most.

thats a good list, for real.

Sup Guys, I always like these threads cuz "most" are always done by: full power or "this" particular version. If you do a Hierarchy then it should be relegated to "current" versions, i think it's only fair. Of course entities and mutants evolve so yes there will be tweaking to be made. Someone else stated that one win doesn't necessarily constitute someone being stronger i.e Franklin jacking up Mephisto in an old FF comic (let's see him try that now) or for us still living in reality ...(joke) How about When Buster Douglas Beat Tyson, well i would bet $$$ that if a rematch happened Tyson most likely wouldn't lose. I don't post much beacuse i hate battleing Fan boys, but this topic is always coming up. I see some good list here with valid points but all these guys are uber powerful, some not even using their full potential. Someone listed the Infinity gauntlet under the Tribunal....well didn't Thanos hand him a pimp slap? I guess we DO have to read comics and let those pesky writers determine our list!.....now where's my comic with Hawkeye knocking around Apocalypse ......or was it Mephisto?

Originally posted by GreatMuta
Sup Guys, I always like these threads cuz "most" are always done by: full power or "this" particular version. If you do a Hierarchy then it should be relegated to "current" versions, i think it's only fair. Of course entities and mutants evolve so yes there will be tweaking to be made. Someone else stated that one win doesn't necessarily constitute someone being stronger i.e Franklin jacking up Mephisto in an old FF comic (let's see him try that now) or for us still living in reality ...(joke) How about When Buster Douglas Beat Tyson, well i would bet $$$ that if a rematch happened Tyson most likely wouldn't lose. I don't post much beacuse i hate battleing Fan boys, but this topic is always coming up. I see some good list here with valid points but all these guys are uber powerful, some not even using their full potential. Someone listed the Infinity gauntlet under the Tribunal....well didn't Thanos hand him a pimp slap? I guess we DO have to read comics and let those pesky writers determine our list!.....now where's my comic with Hawkeye knocking around Apocalypse ......or was it Mephisto?

Hawkeye knocking around Apocalypse? what next Jubilee kicking Magneto ass?

Originally posted by Mainstream
Hawkeye knocking around Apocalypse? what next Jubilee kicking Magneto ass?

It was a joke....(a bad one nevertheless) I was thinking everyone had a comic with their favorite hero trashing another for proof of their argument.

Originally posted by GreatMuta
It was a joke....(a bad one nevertheless) I was thinking everyone had a comic with their favorite hero trashing another for proof of their argument.

I hear yeah...so to speak.

minor changes and additions...

TOAA
Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion
Galactus/Abraxis/High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant
Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Uatu
Stranger/Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
Zeus/Odin
Thanos/Mephisto
Silver Surfer/Doctor Strange
Gladiator/Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable

i need some help...too big a power gap between thanos-silver surfer and silver surfer-gladiator.

and also, i think there might be a level between LT and Eternity, but i can't think of anybody who could fill the spot.

HFPP, Infinity Gauntlet might be between LT and Eternity. And Genis-Vell, Adam Warlock, Loki, Thor, Drax, Quasar, Champion, other heralds, etc. are all at or near Surfer/Gladiator/Magneto level.

Update

TOAA
Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
Eternity/Galactus/Abraxis
High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant
Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Uatu
Stranger/Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
Thanos
Elders of the Universe
Silver Surfer/Doctor Strange/Quasar/Captain Marvel
Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable

Thumbs up hfpp (too lazy to find an appropriate smiley). But I agree with pretty much everything there. Any list is still missing plenty of people, and I might make a small change or two (I'd bump Quasar down a slot), but everything else seems about right.

now we need to start a DC top 20.

another edit


TOAA
Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxis
High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant
Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Uatu
Stranger/Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
Doramammu/Onslaught
Thanos/Elders of the Universe
Doctor Strange/The Sentry
Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse
Blackbolt/WonderMan

Some would say that Dormammu is above the Skyfathers. I'd say the Elder Gods are should be higher than the Vishanti.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Some would say that Dormammu is above the Skyfathers.

Dormammu is nails... but Strange has defeated him once or twice... i don't think he'd manage a win over Odin or Zeus

Some people would say that because Dormammu annexes dimensions into his own and Asgard is just one dimenion, same with Olympus, it means that Dormammu rules over multiple dimensions whereas Odin and Zeus rule over one each. That's just what I've heard, not exactly my point of view.

er...final edit, hopefully.

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxis
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
9. Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
10. The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Stranger
11. Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
12. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
13. Dormammu/Onslaught
14. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
15. Doctor Strange/The Sentry
16. Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
17. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
18. Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
19. Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse
20. Blackbolt/WonderMan

I just don't see the Elder Gods being more powerful than the Vishanti. It's the same with Shuma Gorath. As far as magic is concerned the Vishanti are the Holy Trinity. Their artifacts and their book are more powerful than the others...I just don't see it. And the only reason that Dormammu gets beaten all the time is because of his ego and his underestimation of Strange. It's definitely not a lack of power. I'm one of those that thinks that he is most certainly above Skyfather.

you should take The Sentry out of it altogether until we find out more about him.... the New Avengers are focussing on him right now

I'm pretty sure that the Elder Gods were the first mystic beings to exist - older than Oshtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Odin, etc... I read somewhere that Agamotto was once Sorcerer Supreme, so even he, at the time, would have had to call on the power of other mystic beings older than him.

I was looking through websites to see where I read that Agamotto was once Sorcerer Supreme in order to have comic references and I ran into this site...

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/archive/index.php/t-34006.html

Some guy called Pointinel just copied and pasted my original "Marvel Universe Hierarchy" from this forum!! (I had the Vishanti listed above the Elder Gods on that list, but that's not the point).

lol

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
another edit


TOAA
Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxis
High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant
Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
The Vishanti/In-Betweener/Uatu
Stranger/Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
Doramammu/Onslaught
Thanos/Elders of the Universe
Doctor Strange/The Sentry
Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse
Blackbolt/WonderMan

Black Bolt should be in the same league as the Hulk, if not higher. He consistently beats the crap out of Hulk, blasted the Sphinx light years away, beat Gladiator with a whisper, punk'd Magneto...(hides from a backlash from demi bag)

Originally posted by K Von Doom
I was looking through websites to see where I read that Agamotto was once Sorcerer Supreme in order to have comic references and I ran into this site...

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/archive/index.php/t-34006.html

Some guy called Pointinel just copied and pasted my original "Marvel Universe Hierarchy" from this forum!! (I had the Vishanti listed above the Elder Gods on that list, but that's not the point).

lol

yeah dude

i said i jacked it in the KMC forums.... thanks a lot tho! now they think i know a lot of shit about the cosmos!

Originally posted by Pointinel
yeah dude

i said i jacked it in the KMC forums.... thanks a lot tho! now they think i know a lot of shit about the cosmos!

lol Actually, I started reading that list and was thinking "Hey, this guy knows what he's talking about" then recognised it when it came to the descriptions at the bottom.

lol

please dont sue

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonder/Phoenix Force
3. Eternity/Abraxas
4. Death/Oblivion/Infinity/Galactus (full power)
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant/Molecule Man
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
9. Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
10. The Vishanti/In-Betweener
11. Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
12. Dormammu/Onslaught
13. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
14. Thanos/Elders of the Universe/Stranger
15. Doctor Strange
16. Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
17. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
18. Black Bolt/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
19. Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse/Magneto
20. Namor/Iron Man/WonderMan

I took the Sentry out for now. Until the end of the New Avengers story arc. Bendis is supposed to define the Sentry's powers. That's my take on things. Feel free to shoot it down with your post.

somebody once pointed out that death and oblivion should be above eternity and infinity, because each universe (apparently) has a representation for eternity/infinity, but death and destruction are multiversal.

Who is TOAA?

Sentry's list looks about right

Originally posted by Sentry
1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonder/Phoenix Force
3. Eternity/Abraxas
4. Death/Oblivion/Infinity/Galactus (full power)
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant/Molecule Man
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
9. Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
10. The Vishanti/In-Betweener
11. Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
12. Dormammu/Onslaught
13. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
14. Thanos/Elders of the Universe/Stranger
15. Doctor Strange
16. Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
17. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
18. Black Bolt/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
19. Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse/Magneto
20. Namor/Iron Man/WonderMan

I took the Sentry out for now. Until the end of the New Avengers story arc. Bendis is supposed to define the Sentry's powers. That's my take on things. Feel free to shoot it down with your post.

In-betweener is supposed to be the neutral force of Lord Order and Master Chaos. Living tribunal said so in SS 40 I think.

Toad should be higher. He is stronger, faster, more durable and more agile then Cap, Wolverine or Daredevil.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
I'm pretty sure that the Elder Gods were the first mystic beings to exist - older than Oshtur, Mephisto, Dormammu, Odin, etc... I read somewhere that Agamotto was once Sorcerer Supreme, so even he, at the time, would have had to call on the power of other mystic beings older than him.

The Elder Gods may have been the first mystical beings to exist on Earth. They came into existence after Earth was formed. The Vishanti, however, appear to predate this reality. Agamotto being Sorceror Supreme of this dimension doesn't necessarily imply that he's from this dimension. He could have protected this dimension until some native sorceror could do it himself.

Besides, the Vishanti are probably the only mystical beings on this list to not be defeated (although I could be wrong). As a matter of fact, they are among the only entities, mystical or otherwise, to never have been bested.

TOAA=The One Above All, Marvel's concept of God.

The Vishanti have their rivals(equals) too, I don't remember their names though... but Dr Strange was once trying to call on their power but didn't receive it because Oshtur, Hoggoth and Agamotto were busy fighting that group.

http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/wicks1.html

A history of Marvel Earth saying when the Elder Gods came into existence but no mention of the Vishanti so their ages can't be compared yet.

Who is TOAA?

TOAA = The One Above All = The Living Tribunal's boss

Originally posted by K Von Doom
The Vishanti have their rivals(equals) too, I don't remember their names though... but Dr Strange was once trying to call on their power but didn't receive it because Oshtur, Hoggoth and Agamotto were busy fighting that group.

http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/wicks1.html

A history of Marvel Earth saying when the Elder Gods came into existence but no mention of the Vishanti so their ages can't be compared yet.

The Vishanti battled the Trinity of Ashes in the War of the Seven Spheres, and they defeated them. My point is that there isn't a comic that I could find that has any member of the Vishanti being bested by anyone, mystical or cosmic.

As far as ages are concerned, Agamotto has told Strange that he was around long before Earth existed. And Strange acknowledges Agamotto individually as one of the most powerful entities in the multiverse. There isn't much that can stand up to the collective might of the Vishanti, Elder Gods included (although the collective Elder Gods vs the Vishanti would be a hell of a fight).

The Vishanti:

Galactus fully fed faced off against one of the Vishanti (Agamotto) and didn't win or lose....it was a bit of a stalemate.

So all three together should at least be above him by a smidge which would put them on Eternity's level of power.

Originally posted by Sentry
1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonder/Phoenix Force
3. Eternity/Abraxas
4. Death/Oblivion/Infinity/Galactus (full power)
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant/Molecule Man
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
9. Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
10. The Vishanti/In-Betweener
11. Atum the God-Eater/Cyttorak/Surtur
12. Dormammu/Onslaught
13. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
14. Thanos/Elders of the Universe/Stranger
15. Doctor Strange
16. Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
17. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
18. Black Bolt/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
19. Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse/Magneto
20. Namor/Iron Man/WonderMan




I don't understand how Atum is 11 when he defeated all the elder gods including set and chthon who are 2 levels above him according to you. I would put him at 8 or maybe 7.Also the vishanti as a collective should be 6 or 5, and Lord chaos and master order should be at 4 as they are powerful abstracts and the in-betweener 5 as he is the balance between them and slighlty weaker than them.

Originally posted by Mainstream
it's not a black hole it's an african american hole...get it right people tongue12 damn right!

Originally posted by Maestro
I don't understand how Atum is 11 when he defeated all the elder gods including set and chthon who are 2 levels above him according to you. I would put him at 8 or maybe 7.Also the vishanti as a collective should be 6 or 5, and Lord chaos and master order should be at 4 as they are powerful abstracts and the in-betweener 5 as he is the balance between them and slighlty weaker than them.


I don't understand why Phoenix force is so high

Its never beaten anyone above herald level

Originally posted by whirlysplat
I don't understand why Phoenix force is so high

Its never beaten anyone above herald level

Yeh that as well, seeing that Set beat phoenix, wouldn't that put him above living tribunal Lol

Originally posted by Maestro
Yeh that as well, seeing that Set beat phoenix, wouldn't that put him above living tribunal Lol

When did Set beat Phoenix?

Originally posted by whirlysplat
When did Set beat Phoenix?

He came back in a thor annual, and basically beat everyone on Earth including avengers and the xmen which included the phoenix. He siphoned all the phoenix force off jean using mystical energies. Only person who stood upto him/ beat him was Atum after Thor called for him after everyone was getting their asses handed to them.

In a What If V2 issue 27 Set beat Rachel who wields a shard of Jean Greys Phoenix essence as per current continuity. That is why her power can be absorbed. She is just a host for the essence. She is not an avatar as Jean is. Not a direct incarnation of the primal force of creation.

Originally posted by Maestro
He came back in a thor annual, and basically beat everyone on Earth including avengers and the xmen which included the phoenix. He siphoned all the phoenix force off jean using mystical energies. Only person who stood upto him/ beat him was Atum after Thor called for him after everyone was getting their asses handed to them.

He siphoned it off of Rachel maestro. As he could because she is an inexperienced host for a part of phoenix carved from Jeans soul as was revealed in Excalibur 64

Anyone want the relevant issues PM your E-mail i'll upload them to you over MSN, A.I.M or whatever. It would be easier for me to post scans but even when i reduce the quality in Photoshop the size is still to post

If you want to read about the comic it's here

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earthset.htm

Unfortunately its a What if but

By reading that link you'll see i was correct Maestro. I have the issue to hand.

Whirly i thought we were joking on that Namor thread. This is going to far. Are you actually trying to ruin all the hard work i put into letting people know about phoenixes place in the hierarchy?

to be honest I think Atum the god eater is a bit underrated on the hierarchy.

Read this thread

http://www.comixtreme.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12652.html

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonder/Phoenix Force
3. Eternity/Abraxas
4. Death/Oblivion/Infinity/Galactus (full power)
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards/The Vishanti(undefeated)
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos/Korvac/Tyrant/Molecule Man
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
9. Gaea/Atum The God Eater(Mother & Son)
10. In-Betweener/Cytorrak
11. Chthon/Set
12. Dormammu/Onslaught
13. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu/Surtur
14. Thanos/Elders of the Universe/Stranger
15. Doctor Strange
16. Silver Surfer//Quasar/Captain Marvel
17. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
18. Black Bolt/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
19. Hulk/Juggernaught/Apocalypse/Magneto
20. Namor/Iron Man/WonderMan

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By reading that link you'll see i was correct Maestro. I have the issue to hand.

Whirly i thought we were joking on that Namor thread. This is going to far. Are you actually trying to ruin all the hard work i put into letting people know about phoenixes place in the hierarchy?


Phoenix isn't that high up GS seriously

1. The One Above All
2. Living Tribunal
3. HOT
4. Infinity Gauntlet
5. Death
6. The Infinites
7. Eternity/Infinity/Galactus (full power)
8. Oblivion
9. The Celestials
10. Master Order/Lord Chaos/Phoenix maybe

Normal Galactus comes in at 11

Ok what do we know about TOAA apart from he is the Living Tribunal's boss? Is this Marvels way of explaining God?

Originally posted by willRules
Ok what do we know about TOAA apart from he is the Living Tribunal's boss? Is this Marvels way of explaining God?


Some think his the prime celestial, who is called the TOAA also, I don't I think they are seperate beings. Some think that the living tribunal is a celestial, I don't. Although Galactus is destined to be the third face on the Living Tribunal

Cheers for the info. So thats all thats known about him/her/it and yet this is the most powerfull being in the mu?

Originally posted by willRules
Cheers for the info. So thats all thats known about him/her/it and yet this is the most powerfull being in the mu?

Pretty much

Originally posted by long pig
Galactus fully fed faced off against one of the Vishanti (Agamotto) and didn't win or lose....it was a bit of a stalemate.

So all three together should at least be above him by a smidge which would put them on Eternity's level of power.

Agamotto had home court advantage during that fight. Even Mephisto in his realm put up a semi-decent, but ultimately losing, fight against Galactus, anywhere else Mephisto would have been squashed in 0.2 milliseconds.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Agamotto had home court advantage during that fight. Even Mephisto in his realm put up a semi-decent, but ultimately losing, fight against Galactus, anywhere else Mephisto would have been squashed in 0.2 milliseconds.

I agree

Originally posted by Sentry
Together the Vishanti are responsible for the creation of The Book of The Vishanti. The greatest known source of magical knowledge in the Earth dimension. The Book contains descriptions of more spells and occult rituals than any other known work except the Darkhold, which deals primarily with black magic and is linked to the Evil demon-god Chthon.

Three beings wrote the book of Vishanti. One being wrote the Darkhold. But the former doesn't have "more" than the latter which should, in a roundabout way, give a rough estimation on how much the Vishanti know in comparison to Chthon. If the Vishanti were older than Chthon, it stands to reason that they'd know more, which clearly isn't the case. And if Chthon was younger than the Vishanti then that means the Vishanti's power is stagnant - doesn't increase - whereas Chthon was able to learn more and surpass their knowledge.

Odin, who Chthon surpasses in power, was able to drive Galactus away.

Agamotto, in his realm, was only able to stalemate Galactus.

Of course I'm not saying Odin is greater than Agamotto, but in comparing Odin, who is much weaker and younger than Chthon, was able to drive Galactus away then why wasn't Agamotto able to do the same?

Home field or not, if you are so far above someone, you should dominate in their realm as you would in any realm.

Galactus didn't dominate at all, he stalemated.

And that's just one of the Vishanti, and not the most powerful one at that AND he had help from Strange.
Agamotto is only known for sitting back and watching what happens, not fighting.

Galactus isn't equal powerwise with Eternity/Death(This was proven when Death was shown to be capable of killing Galactus, Strange saved him.), he is only equal in importance.

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Three beings wrote the book of Vishanti. One being wrote the Darkhold. But the former doesn't have "more" than the latter which should, in a roundabout way, give a rough estimation on how much the Vishanti know in comparison to Chthon. If the Vishanti were older than Chthon, it stands to reason that they'd know more, which clearly isn't the case. And if Chthon was younger than the Vishanti then that means the Vishanti's power is stagnant - doesn't increase - whereas Chthon was able to learn more and surpass their knowledge.

Odin, who Chthon surpasses in power, was able to drive Galactus away.

Agamotto, in his realm, was only able to stalemate Galactus.

Of course I'm not saying Odin is greater than Agamotto, but in comparing Odin, who is much weaker and younger than Chthon, was able to drive Galactus away then why wasn't Agamotto able to do the same?

The Vishanti is limited to white magic, the Darkhold can have both.
You have to take into account that there are spells that the Vishanti refuse to use because they are dark, but Dark Mages use anything that fullfills their needs.

Driven away a hungry weak Galactus.

Agamotto faught a full fed Galactus who had help from Strange to find Agamotto's weaknesses, add that to the fact that Agamotto is no warrior or fighter, it makes Galactus look horrible.

The Vishanti are most definatly > Galactus in power, but not importance. In importance, they are only one step below.

Originally posted by long pig
The Vishanti is limited to white magic, the Darkhold can have both.
You have to take into account that there are spells that the Vishanti refuse to use because they are dark, but Dark Mages use anything that fullfills their needs.


The Vishanti primarily deal with white magic. The Darkhold primarily deals with dark magic, not both. Which would mean Chthon knows three times more dark magic than Agamotto does light magic.

Originally posted by long pig
Home field or not, if you are so far above someone, you should dominate in their realm as you would in any realm.

Galactus didn't dominate at all, he stalemated.


Galactus is most likely 10 'ranks' above Mephisto and dwarfs him in power. But Mephisto, in his realm, was still able to give Galactus some grief. In the end, Galactus didn't 'dominate' Mephisto... he threatened to absorb the dimension but in a straight up fight, in hell, Galactus didn't dominate... even though he's far above Mephisto on the cosmic ladder.

Exactly, he's higher up on the important latter, but not so far on the power latter.

Galactus isn't =Eternity/Death in power, nor is he = Vishanti in power, they all out rank him. But importance, he is = to Eternity/Death.

The Darkhold doesn't hold more info, more likely the same ammount. But it doesn't matter, the BOV contains much more power.

Kinda like this:
Which is more important on a car, the wheels or the engine? They both are equally important but the engine has more power.

Originally posted by long pig
The Darkhold doesn't hold more info, more likely the same ammount. But it doesn't matter, the BOV contains much more power.

Together the Vishanti are responsible for the creation of The Book of The Vishanti. The greatest known source of magical knowledge in the Earth dimension. The Book contains descriptions of more spells and occult rituals than any other known work except the Darkhold, which deals primarily with black magic and is linked to the Evil demon-god Chthon.

Nowhere does it state that the Book of Vishanti holds more power than the Darkhold. Only that it holds the greatest source of magical knowledge on the Earth Dimension EXCEPT for the Darkhold. Plus, every possessor of the Book of Vishanti adds their own spells to it, however, that, along with the knowledge of the Vishanti still doesn't surpass the Book of Darkhold. Now, how does the Book of Vishanti equal the Book of Darkhold when people keep adding to the former?

Most likely, that 'except' statement means "that the Book of Vishanti holds the most magical knowledge except for the Book of Darkhold, which holds more"

1. Book of Darkhold
2. Book of Vishanti

Now, for argument's sake, let's say that the two books are currently equal, that would still mean....

Chthon's knowledge = Knowledge of Agamotto + Hoggoth + Oshtur + every possessor of the Book of Vishanti

That may very well be true. I never said he was less knowledgeable, just less powerful.

But his power is quite limited due to being trapped in his own dimension, unable to leave except via mortal host.

Well, of course... now he's trapped. But the hierarchy rankings are determined by beings in their natural or optimum state, thus we don't go by "Mephisto would be ranked #106 because he's nothing on Earth" or "Odin is #472 because he's dead".

And, as expected, although I agree with you on a lot of points on the VS forum Long Pig, i would have to say knowledge = power.

I don't....really understand where you are going with this.

We both agree he may have been more powerful at one time, but he isn't now because he was condemned, so in essence, that power is useless because he can't use it.

If your power only spans across your own dimension, it means you are not as powerful as the ones who's power spans across all dimensions.

Otherwise, there'd be 100 TOAAs.

Knowledge=power only in the after school special commercials.

Knowledge=shit when you can't use it.
Kinda like a paraplegic who's a black belt in kick boxing.

Well... the point is... at this moment, would you rank Odin #763 because he's dead and unable to do anything? Or would you rank him at his most powerful, when he was ruling Asgard?

I'm saying the same thing with regards to Chthon, I'm not basing his ranking or power on what he is right now... I'm basing it on what he originally was. And in that original inception, he, along with the other Elder gods, were more powerful than the Vishanti.

I'm not sure that the Elder Gods were intended to be more powerful than the Vishanti.

As far as Darkhod vs BOVishant...One could just as easily argue that because the BOVishanti was written by three beings, it contains three times information. Chthon's magic tends to be primarily based on this universe (its pocket dimensions included). If the Vishanti were each from a different universe, there would be information about three times as many realities. Besides, the BOVishanti contains virtually every counterspell known. As more knowledge is acquired by its possesor about extradimensional magic, spells are added. The Darkhold is pretty static, Chthon has to keep at basically the same way to get back to this reality.

Until Chthon is able to use his power fully again(Which he supposedly never will be able to.), he isn't ranked as high as Mephisto.

Odin will come back, Chthon will never be fully in power.

I think our conflict is that you base your idea on what was, and I base mine on what is and what will most likely be.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I'm not sure that the Elder Gods were intended to be more powerful than the Vishanti.

As far as Darkhod vs BOVishant...One could just as easily argue that because the BOVishanti was written by three beings, it contains three times information. Chthon's magic tends to be primarily based on this universe (its pocket dimensions included). If the Vishanti were each from a different universe, there would be information about three times as many realities. Besides, the BOVishanti contains virtually every counterspell known. As more knowledge is acquired by its possesor about extradimensional magic, spells are added. The Darkhold is pretty static, Chthon has to keep at basically the same way to get back to this reality.

This goes back to my earlier argument regarding this quote:

"The Book of Vishanti contains more spells and occult rituals than any other known work EXCEPT for the Darkhold"...

which implies either of two things 1. The Darkhold contains as much as the Book of Vishanti or; 2. The Darkhold contains more than the Book of Vishanti; most likely, it's the latter seeing as, as you've quoted, the Book of Vishanti is always being added upon but, as my quote goes, "more spells than any other work EXCEPT for the Darkhold".

That the Darkhold was written by one being and the Book of Vishanti was written by three beings (plus lesser users) would have to mean that Chthon is three times more knowledgable than each of the individual members of the Vishanti. Regarding Oshtur, Hoggoth and Agamotto being from three different universes, it would still be a moot point because their combined knowledge is still less or just equal to Chthon's (at best).

Originally posted by long pig
I think our conflict is that you base your idea on what was, and I base mine on what is and what will most likely be.

This is likely

In which case, there should be a lot of people removed or re-arranged from the list such as Eon, Onslaught, Korvac, King Thor and the like.

That's the problem with a definitive "Hierarchy", there is no such thing, because characters and powers change every day.

Originally posted by long pig
That's the problem with a definitive "Hierarchy", there is no such thing, because characters and powers change every day.

Indeed

Originally posted by long pig
That's the problem with a definitive "Hierarchy", there is no such thing, because characters and powers change every day.

You have a good point, but the hierarchy is meant to illustrate each individuals power at its fullest, not when its fluctuating because then you would have a hierarchey which would be totally messed up.

fairly large edit.

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxas
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos/Chronos
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds
9. Korvac/Hyperstorm/Atum the God-Eater
10. Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
11. Gaea/The Vishanti (individually)
12. In-Betweener/Stranger/Tyrant
13. Cyttorak/Surtur
14. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
15. Dormammu/Onslaught
16. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
17. Doctor Strange/The Sentry
18. Silver Surfer/Quasar/Captain Marvel
19. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
20. Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable

1) Living Tribunal
2) TOAA/ Dreaming Celestial
3) Infinites
4) Eternity/ Infinity/ Oblivion/ Death/ Galactus
5) Zeus/ Odin/ Ego/ Celestials

Originally posted by armandovalles
1) Living Tribunal
2) TOAA/ Dreaming Celestial
3) Infinites
4) Eternity/ Infinity/ Oblivion/ Death/ Galactus
5) Zeus/ Odin/ Ego/ Celestials

Thats incredibly inaccurate. You've forgotten many entities i wouldnt bother. Hoorays and Sentrys ones are among the most accurate ive seen

oh yeah, i forgot about the DC hierarchy. that one'll be a pain in the ass.

first attempt at DC list. note how terrible it is.

1. The Presence/Great Evil Beast
2. The Source/Full Potential Spectre
3. Lucifer/Michael/Jesus
4.The Voice/The Word
5. Wally the God Boy
6. Ultimator, other 7d to 10d beings
7. ID (sixth dimensional being)
8. The 5th Dimensional Imps (Mr. Mxyzptlk, Bane-Mite, and Thunderbolts)
9. Anti-Monitor/Monitor
10. the Endless/Ion
11. Guardians of the Universe/Superman Prime
12. First of the Fallen/Archangel Gabriel
13. Progenitor/Imperiex Prime
14. Neron/Abaddon
15. Skyfather

Well Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre and hes not even on that list.

ganthet is a member of the guardians, who are on the list. spectre at any level under full potential doesn't make the list.

small edit

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxas
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Galactus/Ego the Living Planet
7. Lord Order/Master Chaos
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds
9. The Vishanti/Uatu/Chronos
10. Korvac/Hyperstorm/Atum the God-Eater
11. Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
12. In-Betweener/Stranger/Tyrant
13. Cyttorak/Surtur/Ymir
14. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu
15. Dormammu/Onslaught/the Walker
16. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
17. Doctor Strange/The Sentry
18. Silver Surfer/Quasar/Captain Marvel
19. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
20. Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable

I'd have to question why the evolved cosmic cubes are ranked so high. And Ego being ranked higher than Order and Chaos. Shouldn't the Infinite Being be higher than Death & Oblivion seeing as his remains do form the six Infinity Gems. But that's just me.

1. TOAA/HOTU
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force/Infinite Being/Infinity Gauntlet/pre-retconned Beyonder
3. Death/Oblivion/Eternity/Infinite/Entrophy
4. Master Order/Lord Chaos/Love/Hate
5. Galactus (full power)/Abraxas/Exitar the Exterminator/Dreaming Celestial/Franklin Richard (Full potential)/The Vishanti/Cronus
5. Normal celestials/Franklin Richards/Leader of the Watchers/Eon/Epoch
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet/Agamotto/Oshtur/Hoggoth/Tyrant (full powered)
7. Korvac/Hyperstorm/Atum the God-Eater(demogorge form)
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Retconned Beyonder
9. Uatu/Starbrand/In-betweener/Stranger
10. Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath/Atum the God-Eater (normal form)
11. Tyrant(de-powered state)/Dormammu/Mephisto
12. Cyttorak/Surtur/Ymir
13. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu/Deities of Exemplars
14. Onslaught/Uni-mind
15. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
16. Doctor Strange/The Sentry
17. Silver Surfer/Quasar/Captain Marvel
18. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
19. Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
20. Hulk/Juggernaut

kvd, the infinite being is with death and oblivion because death and oblivion are multiversal...every universe's eternity eventually is killed and destroyed.

another minor edit.

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxas
5. High-Level Celestials/Franklin Richards
6. Lord Order/Master Chaos
7. Galactus/Ego the Living Planet
8. The Vishanti/Uatu/Chronos
9. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
10. Korvac/In-Betweener/Atum the God-Eater
11. Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
12. Cyttorak/Stranger
13. Surtur/Ymir
14. Zeus/Odin/Tyrant
15. Dormammu/Onslaught/the Walker
16. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
17. Doctor Strange/Silver Surfer/Quasar
18. Captain Marvel/Thor
19. Magneto/Adam Warlock/Gladiator
20. Hulk/God-Cable/Shaman X-Man

Originally posted by demigawd
I think a lot of this is subject to opinion. People's opinions of characters vary wildly, as some people put a lot of emphasis on a character's low showings, and others put too much emphasis on a character's high showings. For example, X-Man is listed as being #12 - Nate Grey is one of the 12 most powerful beings in the Universe? Higher than Love/Hate (two abstract beings)???? Not to me, but other people might go by some obscure reference in X-men #xxx where someone said, "He's got the potential to be a peer of Eternity", perhaps completely talking out of their ass, but some people will take that and use it as evidence that Nate is indeed more powerful than Love and Hate.

I'd say this hierarchy either needs a LOT more categories, or A LOT fewer. I'm leaning towards fewer. Once you get to earthbound heroes and villains, like Apoc, Thor, Magneto, Graviton, BlackBolt, Hulk, etc., it's all basically the same. Some just have been shown in more favorable lights than others by certain writers.

So True !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxas
5. Lord Order/Master Chaos
6. Celestials/Franklin Richards
7. Galactus/Ego the Living Planet
8. The Vishanti/Uatu/Chronos
9. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Hyperstorm
10. Korvac/In-Betweener/Atum the God-Eater
11. Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
12. Cyttorak/Stranger
13. Surtur/Ymir
14. Zeus/Odin/Tyrant
15. Dormammu/Onslaught
16. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
17. Doctor Strange/Mephisto
18. Silver Surfer/Thor/Blackheart
19. Quasar/Captain Marvel/Blackbolt
20. Magneto/Adam Warlock/Gladiator

getting down to the final tinker...

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxas
5. Lord Order/Master Chaos
6. Celestials/Franklin Richards
7. Galactus/Ego the Living Planet
8. The Vishanti/Uatu/Chronos
9. Hyperstorm/High Evolutionary
10. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds
11. Korvac/In-Betweener/Atum the God-Eater
12. Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
13. Surtur/Ymir/Cyttorak
14. Zeus/Odin/Tyrant
15. Dormammu/Onslaught/Stranger
16. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
17. Doctor Strange/Mephisto
18. Silver Surfer/Thor/Sentry
19. Quasar/Captain Marvel/Blackbolt
20. Magneto/Adam Warlock/Gladiator

Originally posted by yahman
So True !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd agree, but demi wrote that about an extremely flawed hierarchy (mine) that needed some major overhaul at the time.

Nice list HFPP.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
getting down to the final tinker...

1. TOAA
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force
3. Death/Oblivion/Infinite Being
4. Eternity/Galactus (full power)/Abraxas
5. Lord Order/Master Chaos
6. Celestials/Franklin Richards
7. Galactus/Ego the Living Planet
8. The Vishanti/Uatu/Chronos
9. Hyperstorm/High Evolutionary
10. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds
11. Korvac/In-Betweener/Atum the God-Eater
12. Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath
13. Surtur/Ymir/Cyttorak
14. Zeus/Odin/Tyrant
15. Dormammu/Onslaught/Stranger
16. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
17. Doctor Strange/Mephisto
18. Silver Surfer/Thor/Sentry
19. Quasar/Captain Marvel/Blackbolt
20. Magneto/Adam Warlock/Gladiator

I think I'm beating a dead horse but why is the High Evolutionary ranked higher than Skyfathers and the Elder Gods?

Originally posted by Maestro
1. TOAA/HOTU
2. Living Tribunal/True Beyonders/Phoenix Force/Infinite Being/Infinity Gauntlet/pre-retconned Beyonder
3. Death/Oblivion/Eternity/Infinite/Entrophy
4. Master Order/Lord Chaos/Love/Hate
5. Galactus (full power)/Abraxas/Exitar the Exterminator/Dreaming Celestial/Franklin Richard (Full potential)/The Vishanti/Cronus
5. Normal celestials/Franklin Richards/Leader of the Watchers/Eon/Epoch
6. Galactus (normal power)/Ego the Living Planet/Agamotto/Oshtur/Hoggoth/Tyrant (full powered)
7. Korvac/Hyperstorm/Atum the God-Eater(demogorge form)
8. Kosmos/Kubik/Shaper of Worlds/Retconned Beyonder
9. Uatu/Starbrand/In-betweener/Stranger
10. Gaea/Set/Chthon/Shuma Gorath/Atum the God-Eater (normal form)
11. Tyrant(de-powered state)/Dormammu/Mephisto
12. Cyttorak/Surtur/Ymir
13. Zeus/Odin/Vishnu/Deities of Exemplars
14. Onslaught/Uni-mind
15. Thanos/Elders of the Universe
16. Doctor Strange/The Sentry
17. Silver Surfer/Quasar/Captain Marvel
18. Gladiator/Adam Warlock/Thor
19. Magneto/Shaman X-Man/God Cable
20. Hulk/Juggernaut

I still think my hierarchy is the most accurate.

High Evolutionary fluctuates a ton...but I'd still agree with KVD, he's probably not above Skyfather.

And as long as the general pieces are in place, a lot of individual placement comes down to opinion. But as long as most of the stuff is right, there's plenty of 'good lists' (including yours Maestro).

Originally posted by DigiMark007
High Evolutionary fluctuates a ton...but I'd still agree with KVD, he's probably not above Skyfather.

And as long as the general pieces are in place, a lot of individual placement comes down to opinion. But as long as most of the stuff is right, there's plenty of 'good lists' (including yours Maestro).

I think Phoenix is grossly overrated here

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I think Phoenix is grossly overrated here

Opinions Vary