Immense dislike of Christians / Christianity!

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lil bitchiness
I myself am not a Christian, but I cannot help but wonder as to why there is such an immense prejudice against Christians only.

If anyone could possibly explain to me, as to why is Christianity is worse than Islam or Judaism in its ideas, then I would be most grateful.

Most of you who preach tolerance and the fact that there should be no discrimination are the very same people who constantly discriminate and trash Christians - so you're doing the very same thing you're condemning the Christians for. Whys that?

If you are blatantly against organized religion than that does indeed include Judaism and Islam, yet everyone is directly referencing to Christianity. Does, somehow the fact that you are surrounded by Christians give you a Christan-bash-free card? It really doesnt.

So I would like to know, why?

All input welcome.

Adam_PoE
Discrimination Against Christians?

lil bitchiness
Uuum, no, I asked why YOU, as in people here on this very board, in this forum and the Genera Discussion forum discriminate Christians.

You're thread is irrelevant to my question unless the article is written by you or a member on this board, or unless everyone shares the same view.

Adam_PoE
I do not know about you, but I like to start threads about articles with which I do not agree, and cross-post them into other relevant threads when asked about my view on a subject.

lil bitchiness
edit

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I do not know about you, but I like to start threads about articles with which I do not agree, and cross-post them into other relevant threads when asked about my view on a subject.

Missunderstood your post.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You're thread is irrelevant to my question unless the article is written by you or a member on this board, or unless everyone shares the same view.

It should be apparent that I share the same view, otherwise I would not have posted a link to the article.

bilb
Well, IMO it has as much to do with why America is frowned upon. We (Americans, Christians) have a reputation (sometimes deservedly so) of being arogant and thinking our way is the ONLY way. Od course Judiasm and Islam thinks the same. But I think that sice Christianity is often seen as a western idea it is lumped together with anti- Americanism. But to be fair, many Christians think the exact same thing of Judiasm & Islam. Neither point of view is right nor is what the founders of teh religion had in mind at the onset..

Imperial_Samura
Hmmm. I imagine one of the reasons Christianity seems so much more criticised as opposed to other religions (at least here) is that many people only have alot of experience with Christianity, and in the west its often the one portrayed badly as no matter how good something is, bad things draw the attention. Likewise there often seems to be something of a politically correct no go zone on other religions, such as Islam and Judaism, which cause people to tone down objections to them.

Similarly there is a saying about how "its alot easier to attack something then it is to defend it", be it a place or concept and so forth, and Christianity can appear to have a great deal of public flaws which provide alot of ammunition for those who would wish to decry it.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It should be apparent that I share the same view, otherwise I would not have posted a link to the article.

Christians in America does not equal Christians around the world.
America does not equal world.
Generalisation does not equal representation of a certain groups of people.

From your article -



This might be the case in America, but as we have already established, America doesnt equal all christians in the world.

Ask people in Africa, Asia Minor and Middle East those questions, and if you think the answers would be the same - you are grossly deluded.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura

Similarly there is a saying about how "its alot easier to attack something then it is to defend it", be it a place or concept and so forth, and Christianity can appear to have a great deal of public flaws which provide alot of ammunition for those who would wish to decry it.

Indeed, I agree, but so does Islam. In Islam it is permited that homosexuals are stoned to death, adultary is punishable by death and so is renouncing of the religion, so how come these things, for example are never mentioned?

Imperial_Samura
"Indeed, I agree, but so does Islam. In Islam it is permited that homosexuals are stoned to death, adultary is punishable by death and so is renouncing of the religion, so how come these things, for example are never mentioned?"


True. I am am member of Amnesty International (though not one who is active over seas), a group who deals alot with such things and alot of what goes on in Islamic states is, in my eyes, reprehensible, but there does appear to be a genuine mind set for some western people that sees them ignoring such things, as it seems they don't think its right to be knocking other cultures and such. Is this right? I don't think so, especially as some of them will then go out of their way to proclaim how flawed Christianity is.

bilb
Well from where I am, it seems like it is 'acceptable' or even cool to bash Christianity yet seems to be Un PC or rude or biased if one trashes other religions, in the US anyway.

Imperial_Samura
It is like that in Australia as well (well, not so much open bashing of Christianity anyway).

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Christians in America does not equal Christians around the world.
America does not equal world.

Generalisation does not equal representation of a certain groups of people.

This might be the case in America, but as we have already established, America doesnt equal all christians in the world.

Ask people in Africa, Asia Minor and Middle East those questions, and if you think the answers would be the same - you are grossly deluded.

I believe that this phenomena is limited to ideologically diverse societies such as America, in which Christians try to dominate public life.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I believe that this phenomena is limited to ideologically diverse societies such as America, in which Christians try to dominate public life.

And I can assure you that that is not the case. America is not the only ideologically diverse society - Your view is based on what you know, and many other factors / religions /cultures you dont have a clue about.

The fact remains that what you are doing is generalisation - you are basing all Christians around the world on the ones in America - There are in Latin America - 480 million Christians, Africa - 360 million Christians, and Asia - 640 million. (estimated)

You cannot possibly claim that American Christians represent all these people? Because they dont.

Ou Be Low hoo
I think the majority of Xians are self-righteous and judgemental. That's why I don't like them...

bilb
No, wouldnt ever think of speaking for those other than myself. But in this instance we are talking about perception which is subjective and unique to each person. So for one to correlate Christianity to America may be factually incorrect, perception wise it is appropriate for that person.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And I can assure you that that is not the case. America is not the only ideologically diverse society - Your view is based on what you know, and many other factors / religions /cultures you dont have a clue about.

The fact remains that what you are doing is generalisation - you are basing all Christians around the world on the ones in America - There are in Latin America - 480 million Christians, Africa - 360 million Christians, and Asia - 640 million. (estimated)

You cannot possibly claim that American Christians represent all these people? Because they dont.

I did not state that American is the only ideologically diverse society.

What I did state is that I believe that this phenomena of dislike for Christians is limited to those ideologically diverse societies, such as America, in which Christians share society with atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, neopagans, and so on, yet try to dominate public life.

finti
I have stated it many times, but I guess one more time doesnt matter. I dont like religion period. The only to have made a fuss about my views in here though are christians.
Since we are in on christianity, well why I dislike it is because of all the hypocrisy and judgmental attitude I meet in many of the christistians.

debbiejo
^ Hey...I'm not like that.

I'm very open minded.

I can tell you why many christians want to impose their views on the world. It's taught that once the whole word hears the "good news" of Christ, then He will return.

Like I've said before you can't be judgeful...The problem with many christians is that they can be. But not in a hateful way, they just want you to go to heaven..

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
I think the majority of Xians are self-righteous and judgemental. That's why I don't like them... And Jews and Muslims aren't?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I did not state that American is the only ideologically diverse society.

What I did state is that I believe that this phenomena of dislike for Christians is limited to those ideologically diverse societies, such as America, in which Christians share society with atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, neopagans, and so on, yet try to dominate public life.

And again, you talk about America, because thats the only thing you know - Why dont you mention for exampl England. Country is ''officialy'' Christian here, but the Bible doesn't rule our country nor are Christians trying to dominate public life?

Or doesn't England fall under your idea of ''idologically diverse society''

Imperial_Samura
Also the most vocal "Christian nations", like the US and parts of Europe, are quiet liberated in how they are allowed to express their opinions. In the US there is the whole separation of state and Church, and people can be as vocal as they want. Likewise flaws are well publicised, like the whole debate between evolution and Biblical creation. It always as opposed to the bible.

However, in the most vocal "Islamic nations" etc there is not a great deal of room for people to object to the Korans teachings and so on, as really, its not in their best interests to make their dislike of their religion so open.

WindDancer
Christianity just like other religions is a victim of stereotypes, misconception, assumption, and lack of understanding from certain indivuals. It maybe one the of the biggest organized religion but it can be also the most least understanded. To make it even harder to understand Christianity breaks down in groups. We have the lutherans, mormons, Catholics, Protestant...etc. which makes it harder to comprehend since is so big and tends to get complicated.

Simply put is about reading and trying to understand what Christianity is as a whole. The average respond you get from person about Christianity is the assumption that there is a heaven and a hell. And if you're a good person when you die the reward is heaven. Or if you're a bad person when you die you go to heaven. Well, that maybe the final conclusion. But is very far from the definition of Christianity. Is much more complicated and difficult to understand. Is not as easy as it seems. What is good? What is bad? What do you consider a good thing? What do you consider what is bad?

All religions are complicated and Christianity is no different. Sure we can draw conclusions, but to define and try to understanded is what makes it difficult. That's why we see dislikement towards Christianity and other religions. People either have the wrong assumptions or they just don't want to learn or care about what the religion really offers.

JediNikki7
I am a Christian but I do know what you mean about the hypocrisy and judgemental attitude. Not all Christians are hypocrites and Christians should not be judged or label insignificant because some people ruin it. I've seen alot of people (especially the older generations) praise the Lord on Sundays and feel almighty and good about themselves but during the rest of the week, being cold hearted and judgemental. Even the Lord himself said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". Christians (among other religions or even races) should not be labeled as one way because there are people who don't practice what they preach and they like to belittle other people. And yes we, as humans, make mistakes ( I'm sure every will agree) but we need to learn from them and change our ways or for those hypocrites they need to change their way of thinking too. Even the Lord acknowledges this people in the bible. Unfortunately hypocrites are around just like they were as stated in the bible. P.S.- I am not trying to push my religion onto others just stating the misconception that Christians = hypocrites is not always true! God doesn't want us to judge others. =-) W.W.J.D?

finti
thats why I put " I meet in many of the christians"

bilb
Yes it is unfortunate that so many Christians are hypocrites. I see them on a daily basis. But I also see more sincere Christians than I do hypocrites. Its just that the bad stuff is what gets talked about and publicized. Its sad really since Christianity has alot of great things to offer, but because of hypocrisy many will not even attempt to understand it.

As to why Christians seem to be criticized more than other religions I think that until someone of a different religion posts in here we really wont know the answer.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And again, you talk about America, because thats the only thing you know - Why dont you mention for exampl England. Country is ''officialy'' Christian here, but the Bible doesn't rule our country nor are Christians trying to dominate public life?

Or doesn't England fall under your idea of ''idologically diverse society''

Again, I believe that this phenomena of dislike for Christians is limited to those ideologically diverse societies, such as America, in which Christians share society with atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, neopagans, and so on, yet try to dominate public life.

By your own admission, Christians do not try to dominate public life in England. Does this mean that England is not an ideologically diverse society? No. It means that England is not an ideologically diverse society in which Christians try to dominate public life. Therefore, this phenomena of dislike for Christians may not be as prevalent there as it is in other places. Read thoroughly before you post.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Again, I believe that this phenomena of dislike for Christians is limited to those ideologically diverse societies, such as America, in which Christians share society with atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, neopagans, and so on, yet try to dominate public life.

By your own admission, Christians do not try to dominate public life in England. Does this mean that England is not an ideologically diverse society? No. It means that England is not an ideologically diverse society in which Christians try to dominate public life. Therefore, this phenomena of dislike for Christians may not be as prevalent there as it is in other places. Read thoroughly before you post.

I have read it properly, yet I still fail to understand how you can generalse the your dislike of all Christians as a group based on American Christians?

You're doing exactly the same thing you are condeming American Christians for...how hypicritical.

big gay kirk
Most people in England don't care much about religion one way or another.... what we dislike is people who don't mix (such as , unfortunately and understandably, some muslims) and people who try to ram stuff down our throats... I have been told on many occasions by born againers that my religious beliefs are plain wrong... that I will be a Christian in the end, because everyone will be.... that I am evil because I'm not bringing up my son to be a Christian.... a Born againer even burned some books I lent him, and would not even pay me back for them, because he was sure I'd thank him in the end!! My mate Blossom, who is a devout Baptist, has the same opinion on born againers as me.... as with anything, its the few that get the many a bad name, and when we talk of hypocritical christians etc its the fanatical ones we're referring to... and we tend to treat all fanatics the same....

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I have read it properly, yet I still fail to understand how you can generalse the your dislike of all Christians as a group based on American Christians?

You're doing exactly the same thing you are condeming American Christians for...how hypicritical.

Where did I state a dislike for all Christians or any Christians for that matter?

In fact, what I did state is that the phenomena of dislike for Christians is limited to particular societies in which Christians try to dominate the lives of non-Christians.

Try responding to what is posted and not what you want to see.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Where did I state a dislike for all Christians or any Christians for that matter?

In fact, what I did state is that the phenomena of dislike for Christians is limited to particular societies in which Christians try to dominate the lives of non-Christians.

Try responding to what is posted and not what you want to see.

And what you posted was an article with no explanation, and therefore, I was refering to what the article said, since apperantly thats your thought. And im persuimg you have READ the article because the article you posted as the asnwer to my questions of ''Why do you dislike Christians'' was the article talking exclusivly about American Christians.

I rest my case.

DCLXVI
JP> Your first post "(Americans, Christians)" is ignorant, because not all Americans are Christians &/or Catholics, so you should not group them so. wink

Lil B> You see this as "prejudice" against Christianity, but what about the absolute hate against Judaism & Islam? Do you see that as normal?
I post "prejudiced" comments against Christianity because I believe it is a crock of-guess. wink
Plus, I've had some pretty bad experiences w/ Christianity, and I hold grudges.....

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by DCLXVI
Lil B> You see this as "prejudice" against Christianity, but what about the absolute hate against Judaism & Islam? Do you see that as normal?
I post "prejudiced" comments against Christianity because I believe it is a crock of-guess. wink
Plus, I've had some pretty bad experiences w/ Christianity, and I hold grudges.....

JP ever posted in this thread.

Who is prejudiced against Judaism and Islam?

vicki horvath
[People always persecute the truth! The Bible says Jesus himself was persecuted and many would be persecuted for his names sake. You can judge a tree by the fruit it bears, if it bears rotton fruit, the whole tree is rotte, I will not name names, but if you have eyes and ears you can figure it out yourself!

Ou Be Low hoo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And Jews and Muslims aren't?

I haven't had an extreme experience of self-righteousness with Jews and Muslims, as I have had with the ol' Xian fraternity...

I'm just talking about personal experience here...not what you see in the media.

BlackC@t
When christians say psychics and ghosts are evil, that really pisses me off.

Evil Dead
I dislike all religion in general. Not their beliefs, simply their existence. I do however bash Christianity more so than others. I do this because Christianity is the one religion I am bombarded with on a daily basis. If I were to live in the mid-east, I'm sure Islam would bare the brunt of my discontent.

I dislike all religion because I find them unnecessary. Ideas and beliefs are good for people to have but there is no reason for millions of those who share similar ideas and beliefs to get together and form gangs. A man can choose to believe in and honor any god he sees fit. I have no problem with that. That promotes internal thought and character growth for that man. Would that same man not feel just as loyal to his beliefs if he were the only man on earth who had those beliefs? Would he not choose to live by the word of his chosen god if he were not surrounded by others who share in worship of the same god? If he truly believes what he claims, he would. Therefore an actual religion devoted to worship of his god or beliefs is moot, unnecessary. It serves no good purpose. The very fact that religions have evolved and consist of millions of individuals suggests to me that personal growth and worship for each individual is not the primary goal. It appears to me that the reason for all those who believe similar beliefs to congregate in one place at one time is for two purposes.

1. Maintain the flock. All these true believers gather together to make sure other members are acting in accord to the religion's belief system. If a member starts to wander....starts to change his ideas....starts to believe less in the religion it is the purpose of every other member to "council" him, to lead him back to the life set in their religious doctrine. Instead of promoting personal growth of ideas and beliefs, the religion is there to do the exact opposite. It exists to surround an individual with millions of others who are expected to show that individual the errors of his ways, confining him to the beliefs set in accord by religious doctrine. It's a prison for the mind. All members keep an eye on all other members to ensure no free thinking can occur.

2. Strength in numbers. A man can live in solitude his entire life with nothing more than a bible and his mind and be the most devout Christian to ever walk the earth. That is a noble man. He cares not if others do not believe the same as him. He knows what he believes, he knows his god and knows he is serving his god. Religions, however, are not comprised of such devout individuals. Most Christians defy the beliefs of the religion on a daily basis. Some are alcoholics, some are drug addicts, some even break commandments......such as Jim Baker, who devoted his entire life to preaching the word of his god. For those less devout members, the sheer numbers of the religion help to maintain their belief that what they are doing is right and all others must be wrong by default. It's all about reassurance, something no person who is truly devout to any belief would need or want.

Religion is all about reassurance. When you start to doubt your beliefs or form new ones there will always be millions of people there to sit you down and set you straight......to let you know that their chosen religion is correct. If confining personal growth of ideas and beliefs of individuals wasn't bad enough, there is also a deadly side affect. While all this "we're right" reassuring is going on, they are also proclaiming any who don't share the same beliefs to be wrong.....which causes a superiority complex to arise. I can tell you now that I am not a Christian. That does not mean I need to be saved. It simply means I do not share your beliefs. Christians can read their bible all they want.....I've read it many times myself, it's a good book. It makes them no better than I. Perhaps I am not the one who needs to be saved.

Alot of my problems with Christianity are those present in all religions/cults. I'm not well versed on many religions other than Christianity so I do not know which are universal and which are unique to the Christians. Here's a short list off the top of my head.

1. You believe ideas and beliefs that are not your own. You did not come to your current conclusions of life, god and purpose on your own. They were dictated to you be someone else. You, being a follower, listened and decided , "yeah...that sounds like it could be true". You live your life based on a millenia+ old religious system that was dreamt up in other's heads.......and you never even met these people. I would be horrified to think that if I wrote my ideas and beliefs about life and purpose down that 1,000 years later millions of people would be living their lives based on MY beliefs......conclusions I personally came to while pondering existence.

2. You believe in a book that is laughable at best. The compilation of texts occured long ago, before much about our natural world was known. As each year passes and knew discoveries are made you choose to ignore the impact it has on the book's validity. Adding all time together as recorded by the Bible, the earth is merely a little over 6,000 years old. Why? Because those who dreamt up the stories had no clue as to the actual age of our planet. The only species to survive the great flood which covered the planet were those Noah had on his ark. How many millions of insect species are there alone? How did Noah collect specimens that are only indiginous to the Americas when the Americas themself were not known? Why did god creat Adam and Eve, the first two Homo Sapiens? What about the other 13 or so known species of human ancestors, where are they in the bible? What about the Dinosaurs who ruled earth far longer than we humans have? I missed the verses on them. I could go on like this forever. Every question I've asked is easily answered. The reason the bible contains such a vast quantitiy of things we know today to be untrue is simply that the writers of the bible, those who made the stories up, did not know about such things. They did not have the resource material to base their stories on. That's the problem with the bible. If it truly was a text written by god, dictated to man to record it would include such things as a god would know about all of the above mentioned and include them in his dictation. Since it is simply a collection of books written by common, every day story tellers who had no access to the information we have today, it doesn't. The bible and everything in it comes from the mind of man, not god.

3. Brainwashing. You raise your children to believe what you believe. You don't say, "well, honey...me and your daddy believe ______". You say, "well honey, _____ is fact". Children listen to their parents in their early years. It is the primary inlet for information about the world around them. They don't believe in Santa Clause because they truly believe that a fat guy MUST travel the world giving presents to children. They believe in Santa Clause because you tell them a fat man travels the world giving presents to children. Same with god. The only difference is that as children get older and start to doubt Santa Clause based on the physically impossible feats he is supposed to accomplish, you let them. You finally give up and admit to them he does not exist. With god on the other hand you never let their doubt grow. As a good Christian it is at that point your duty to shepherd them back to the flock, to show them the errors of their thinking.

4. Pick and Choose. You base your life on a religion, and religion on a book. You pick and choose which parts of the book are physical fact and which parts are merely tales, translatable. You know it's absurd to believe that a man could be swallowed alive by a fish and survive for days inside. You call this a morality tale. In the same breath you will say that Jesus of Nazereth is physical fact, despite the equally absurdness of the tale. You admit a man can't live inside of a fish but won't admit that a man can not walk on water......or turn water into wine. Why do you not proclaim the Jesus story as merely a morality tale? It's a much better one.

There are many more but I'm tired of typing.

DCLXVI
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
JP ever posted in this thread.

Who is prejudiced against Judaism and Islam?

Many members are prejudiced against Judaism and Islam, though perhaps not openly....

BTW> I must have been on crack that night, I meant "Bilb". wink

BackFire
Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
I think the majority of Xians are self-righteous and judgemental. That's why I don't like them...


Quoted for truth.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Evil Dead
I dislike all religion in general. Not their beliefs, simply their existence. I do however bash Christianity more so than others. I do this because Christianity is the one religion I am bombarded with on a daily basis. If I were to live in the mid-east, I'm sure Islam would bare the brunt of my discontent.

I dislike all religion because I find them unnecessary. Ideas and beliefs are good for people to have but there is no reason for millions of those who share similar ideas and beliefs to get together and form gangs. A man can choose to believe in and honor any god he sees fit. I have no problem with that. That promotes internal thought and character growth for that man. Would that same man not feel just as loyal to his beliefs if he were the only man on earth who had those beliefs? Would he not choose to live by the word of his chosen god if he were not surrounded by others who share in worship of the same god? If he truly believes what he claims, he would. Therefore an actual religion devoted to worship of his god or beliefs is moot, unnecessary. It serves no good purpose. The very fact that religions have evolved and consist of millions of individuals suggests to me that personal growth and worship for each individual is not the primary goal. It appears to me that the reason for all those who believe similar beliefs to congregate in one place at one time is for two purposes.

1. Maintain the flock. All these true believers gather together to make sure other members are acting in accord to the religion's belief system. If a member starts to wander....starts to change his ideas....starts to believe less in the religion it is the purpose of every other member to "council" him, to lead him back to the life set in their religious doctrine. Instead of promoting personal growth of ideas and beliefs, the religion is there to do the exact opposite. It exists to surround an individual with millions of others who are expected to show that individual the errors of his ways, confining him to the beliefs set in accord by religious doctrine. It's a prison for the mind. All members keep an eye on all other members to ensure no free thinking can occur.

2. Strength in numbers. A man can live in solitude his entire life with nothing more than a bible and his mind and be the most devout Christian to ever walk the earth. That is a noble man. He cares not if others do not believe the same as him. He knows what he believes, he knows his god and knows he is serving his god. Religions, however, are not comprised of such devout individuals. Most Christians defy the beliefs of the religion on a daily basis. Some are alcoholics, some are drug addicts, some even break commandments......such as Jim Baker, who devoted his entire life to preaching the word of his god. For those less devout members, the sheer numbers of the religion help to maintain their belief that what they are doing is right and all others must be wrong by default. It's all about reassurance, something no person who is truly devout to any belief would need or want.

Religion is all about reassurance. When you start to doubt your beliefs or form new ones there will always be millions of people there to sit you down and set you straight......to let you know that their chosen religion is correct. If confining personal growth of ideas and beliefs of individuals wasn't bad enough, there is also a deadly side affect. While all this "we're right" reassuring is going on, they are also proclaiming any who don't share the same beliefs to be wrong.....which causes a superiority complex to arise. I can tell you now that I am not a Christian. That does not mean I need to be saved. It simply means I do not share your beliefs. Christians can read their bible all they want.....I've read it many times myself, it's a good book. It makes them no better than I. Perhaps I am not the one who needs to be saved.

Alot of my problems with Christianity are those present in all religions/cults. I'm not well versed on many religions other than Christianity so I do not know which are universal and which are unique to the Christians. Here's a short list off the top of my head.

1. You believe ideas and beliefs that are not your own. You did not come to your current conclusions of life, god and purpose on your own. They were dictated to you be someone else. You, being a follower, listened and decided , "yeah...that sounds like it could be true". You live your life based on a millenia+ old religious system that was dreamt up in other's heads.......and you never even met these people. I would be horrified to think that if I wrote my ideas and beliefs about life and purpose down that 1,000 years later millions of people would be living their lives based on MY beliefs......conclusions I personally came to while pondering existence.

2. You believe in a book that is laughable at best. The compilation of texts occured long ago, before much about our natural world was known. As each year passes and knew discoveries are made you choose to ignore the impact it has on the book's validity. Adding all time together as recorded by the Bible, the earth is merely a little over 6,000 years old. Why? Because those who dreamt up the stories had no clue as to the actual age of our planet. The only species to survive the great flood which covered the planet were those Noah had on his ark. How many millions of insect species are there alone? How did Noah collect specimens that are only indiginous to the Americas when the Americas themself were not known? Why did god creat Adam and Eve, the first two Homo Sapiens? What about the other 13 or so known species of human ancestors, where are they in the bible? What about the Dinosaurs who ruled earth far longer than we humans have? I missed the verses on them. I could go on like this forever. Every question I've asked is easily answered. The reason the bible contains such a vast quantitiy of things we know today to be untrue is simply that the writers of the bible, those who made the stories up, did not know about such things. They did not have the resource material to base their stories on. That's the problem with the bible. If it truly was a text written by god, dictated to man to record it would include such things as a god would know about all of the above mentioned and include them in his dictation. Since it is simply a collection of books written by common, every day story tellers who had no access to the information we have today, it doesn't. The bible and everything in it comes from the mind of man, not god.

3. Brainwashing. You raise your children to believe what you believe. You don't say, "well, honey...me and your daddy believe ______". You say, "well honey, _____ is fact". Children listen to their parents in their early years. It is the primary inlet for information about the world around them. They don't believe in Santa Clause because they truly believe that a fat guy MUST travel the world giving presents to children. They believe in Santa Clause because you tell them a fat man travels the world giving presents to children. Same with god. The only difference is that as children get older and start to doubt Santa Clause based on the physically impossible feats he is supposed to accomplish, you let them. You finally give up and admit to them he does not exist. With god on the other hand you never let their doubt grow. As a good Christian it is at that point your duty to shepherd them back to the flock, to show them the errors of their thinking.

4. Pick and Choose. You base your life on a religion, and religion on a book. You pick and choose which parts of the book are physical fact and which parts are merely tales, translatable. You know it's absurd to believe that a man could be swallowed alive by a fish and survive for days inside. You call this a morality tale. In the same breath you will say that Jesus of Nazereth is physical fact, despite the equally absurdness of the tale. You admit a man can't live inside of a fish but won't admit that a man can not walk on water......or turn water into wine. Why do you not proclaim the Jesus story as merely a morality tale? It's a much better one.

There are many more but I'm tired of typing.
Great stuff! Thanks for the long explanation - it was generally what I wanted to know.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
I haven't had an extreme experience of self-righteousness with Jews and Muslims, as I have had with the ol' Xian fraternity...

I'm just talking about personal experience here...not what you see in the media.

My appologies OBLh - I asked in the first post a personal opinion, not a general one, I guess thats what you gave me, so..thanks.

Originally posted by DCLXVI
Many members are prejudiced against Judaism and Islam, though perhaps not openly....

BTW> I must have been on crack that night, I meant "Bilb". wink

I see. Thanks again.


As for general - I just donn't think being prejudice against anyone is a good way of fighting them...Im thinking perhaps education?
If we discriminate and are nasty towards them, then we're in theory acting like all of them, no?

It does all depend - I learned of the religion in America - i just never assumed it was so strong and that fundamental.

DCLXVI
Ah, I suppose you are right....
But I still dislike Christianity....seminally, at least....

lil bitchiness
Everyone to their own DC wink

I love Jesus, I think he was a great man - it is some of his ''followers'' that are not exactly all that.

DCLXVI
Exactly.
But I don't believe in Jesus....stick out tongue

I don't know, I think that because of my past experiences with Christianity, I have almost subconsciously developed a particular distaste with that religion and it's practitioners, (save a few), at least more so than Religion in general.

Tex
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I myself am not a Christian, but I cannot help but wonder as to why there is such an immense prejudice against Christians only.

If anyone could possibly explain to me, as to why is Christianity is worse than Islam or Judaism in its ideas, then I would be most grateful.

Most of you who preach tolerance and the fact that there should be no discrimination are the very same people who constantly discriminate and trash Christians - so you're doing the very same thing you're condemning the Christians for. Whys that?

If you are blatantly against organized religion than that does indeed include Judaism and Islam, yet everyone is directly referencing to Christianity. Does, somehow the fact that you are surrounded by Christians give you a Christan-bash-free card? It really doesnt.

So I would like to know, why?

All input welcome.

Shuttup you cross worshiper! tongue10
If you love Jesus so much why dont you marry him!?!? schmoll
And dont even think about wearing white down the aisle! diva
Makes you look fat and clashes with those dark rings around your eyes and....I cant remember the other reason! naughty

Damn I'm hot! diva
Take notes doll! winkiss

......

I hate Christians so much because their beliefs directly affect my everyday life. It's really hard seeing as I live in The United States of Jesusland and my president is a born again evangelical Christian nut job who's driving my country back 200 years. The bible is the new constitution.

Jews and Muslims I dont agree with either but there's not many of them in the US so I cant be bothered hating them. Hating Christians is a lot of hard work doll! I need several spa pampering treatments to recuperate! eyes

DCLXVI
laughing out loud

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Tex

Jews and Muslims I dont agree with either but there's not many of them in the US so I cant be bothered hating them. Hating Christians is a lot of hard work doll!

Hate is a little strong of a word, is it not?

bilb
Originally posted by Tex
Shuttup you cross worshiper! tongue10
If you love Jesus so much why dont you marry him!?!? schmoll
And dont even think about wearing white down the aisle! diva
Makes you look fat and clashes with those dark rings around your eyes and....I cant remember the other reason! naughty

Damn I'm hot! diva
Take notes doll! winkiss

......

I hate Christians so much because their beliefs directly affect my everyday life. It's really hard seeing as I live in The United States of Jesusland and my president is a born again evangelical Christian nut job who's driving my country back 200 years. The bible is the new constitution.

Jews and Muslims I dont agree with either but there's not many of them in the US so I cant be bothered hating them. Hating Christians is a lot of hard work doll! I need several spa pampering treatments to recuperate! eyes

A spot on dead accurate example of whats wrong with the world today. Thanks for volunteering for being the poster child of baseless hate & bigotry..

Tex
It's most certainly not baseless. Need I remind you of the tens of thousands of murdered innocent who were killed in the name of your lord?

Or the hate and bigotry that is the foundation of your church?

Or its archaic stance on sexuality, gender and science and common reason?

Christianity is the greatest threat to the social and technological advancement of the United States.

Christians are a disease of ignorance and bigotry whose refusal to acknowledge science and history in favor of their bible will only continue to propel a message of hate, oppression, sexism, homophobia, prejudice and racism.

I hate their beliefs and their unwillingness to educate themselves.

DCLXVI
Wow....I think Tex is actually very serious with this topic....
scared

BackFire
Originally posted by bilb
A spot on dead accurate example of whats wrong with the world today. Thanks for volunteering for being the poster child of baseless hate & bigotry..


He's giving valid reasons for his feelings and beliefs, he's shown they aren't baseless hate or bigotry, moreso, his reasons are pretty accurate (though generalized) for believing what he does. At least he's telling us why he thinks a certain way, which is more then this last post of yours has done.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Tex
It's most certainly not baseless. Need I remind you of the tens of thousands of murdered innocent who were killed in the name of your lord?

Or the hate and bigotry that is the foundation of your church?

Or its archaic stance on sexuality, gender and science and common reason?

Christianity is the greatest threat to the social and technological advancement of the United States.

Christians are a disease of ignorance and bigotry whose refusal to acknowledge science and history in favor of their bible will only continue to propel a message of hate, oppression, sexism, homophobia, prejudice and racism.

I hate their beliefs and their unwillingness to educate themselves.

Tex, you are doing the same thing you are condemning those people for. And by your reply here, your approach is no better than theirs - its filled with hate and prejudice.

And to fight hate and prejudice is not to hate and discriminate, its to educate.

Here is a short list of people who thought they can make the world better place by ''getting rid'' of people they didn't like -

Adolf Hitler
Joseph Stalin
Mao Tse-tung
Pol Pot
Ayatollah Khomeini

They all thought a certain group of people were a disease on the world.

bilb
Originally posted by Tex
It's most certainly not baseless. Need I remind you of the tens of thousands of murdered innocent who were killed in the name of your lord?

Or the hate and bigotry that is the foundation of your church?

Or its archaic stance on sexuality, gender and science and common reason?

Christianity is the greatest threat to the social and technological advancement of the United States.

Christians are a disease of ignorance and bigotry whose refusal to acknowledge science and history in favor of their bible will only continue to propel a message of hate, oppression, sexism, homophobia, prejudice and racism.

I hate their beliefs and their unwillingness to educate themselves.

Ok line by line here..
Thousands of people have been killed in the name of all kinds of dieties & political reasons, Chrisitianity is not unique in this aspect.
My religion is based on love and grace and embraces all, regardless of any and all differences in humankind.
Stances on sexuality, science & 'common knowledge' chnge throughout all socities in direct correlation to events that affect ists people. Simply because teh church often upholds its views is not a negative, it simply means we have principles, which last time I checked was a measure of integrity.
Social and technological advancement? err, I think not. Better give an example on this one because from where I sit that is totally baselss.
I am not an gnorant or bigoted person, but i do recognize that there are alot of them in the Christian faith, That does not mean it is rampant. It does seem to be the case here tho seeing as how you a) dont seem top know anyothing about Chrisitanity except that you hate it and b) YOU are bigoted against Christians.. so pot, meet kettle.
Sounds like I have educatred myself far more with much better results than you in which case you're entire areguemnt is baseless and anecdotal at best.. and hatefilled and ignorant at worst..

BackFire
Of course, Tex isn't saying "kill all christians" or anything violent like that. He's giving accurate examples of what's wrong with much of them.

It's not Tex's, nor anyone elses responsibility to educate these people.

BackFire
"Thousands of people have been killed in the name of all kinds of dieties & political reasons, Chrisitianity is not unique in this aspect."

No, it's not unique, which just says that people were killed in the name of the christian god, at least you're not denying it.

"My religion is based on love and grace and embraces all, regardless of any and all differences in humankind."

That's what it should be, however, it's not the case most of the time. Many christians are judgemental over other people for their beliefs, sexuality or occupation, often, more judgemental then non christians are of others.

"Stances on sexuality, science & 'common knowledge' chnge throughout all socities in direct correlation to events that affect ists people. Simply because teh church often upholds its views is not a negative, it simply means we have principles, which last time I checked was a measure of integrity. "

It is a negative when it refuses to acknowledge new facts and theories that go against it's "teachings". Staying true to your beliefs and being stubborn is not a good thing, as society changes, beliefs also need to change to become valid and relevant to the current timeframe. Christianity does not do this (see their outdated and prejudice stance on homosexuality for proof of this).

There are other groups of people who have stayed true to their beliefs, no matter how outdated they become to society, such as the KKK and skinheads. Both hold ideals that they've had for years, doesn't make them right, or moral.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course, Tex isn't saying "kill all christians" or anything violent like that. He's giving accurate examples of what's wrong with much of them.

It's not Tex's, nor anyone elses responsibility to educate these people.

So ultimately what you're saying here? Its noones responsibility to educate them, but this is whats wrong with them, and we hate them. They are disease and ultimately need to be got rid of...if that is not whats being said, then please explain what is being said?

Calling a group of people ''disease'' on society is not talking what is wrong with him - that is already preaching of hate and prejudice.

Hitler hated Jews - he hated everything about them and their beliefs. Ayatollah Khomeini hated Americans and everyhting about them and their beliefs...those were just nuts enough to act on their hate.

Hate, ignorance and greed are the biggest problems in our society - and if you think that to fight hate is to hate back, then you are sadly mistaken - hate only brings more hate, and more suffering.

Are you saying that only Christians are homophobic? Are you saying that only Christians ever killed in the nameof god? If so, then you are missinformed. The reality is much different. And generalisation is dangerous.

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
"Thousands of people have been killed in the name of all kinds of dieties & political reasons, Chrisitianity is not unique in this aspect."

No, it's not unique, which just says that people were killed in the name of the christian god, at least you're not denying it.

"My religion is based on love and grace and embraces all, regardless of any and all differences in humankind."

That's what it should be, however, it's not the case most of the time. Many christians are judgemental over other people for their beliefs, sexuality or occupation, often, more judgemental then non christians are of others.

"Stances on sexuality, science & 'common knowledge' chnge throughout all socities in direct correlation to events that affect ists people. Simply because teh church often upholds its views is not a negative, it simply means we have principles, which last time I checked was a measure of integrity. "

It is a negative when it refuses to acknowledge new facts and theories that go against it's "teachings". Staying true to your beliefs and being stubborn is not a good thing, as society changes, beliefs also need to change to become valid and relevant to the current timeframe. Christianity does not do this (see their outdated and prejudice stance on homosexuality for proof of this).

There are other groups of people who have stayed true to their beliefs, no matter how outdated they become to society, such as the KKK and skinheads. Both hold ideals that they've had for years, doesn't make them right, or moral.

you are right, I dont deny in the least that horrible atrocities have been commited in the name of God, which is inexcusable to me as it is not what my faith is about. But I aslo believe in forgiveness and therin lies even more beauty IMO.

Yes, i understand that some things need to be flexible, but as far as what consitutes a change in theology is not toally deoendent on science IMO. Science is not a perfect art, theories are proven and disproven all the time which reinforces the need for a static stance on some issues. That does not mean that I persoanlly believe in al that the church preaches but I do respect their integrity in not bowing to pressure on social issues.

And also yes, groups like the KKK are extremely dangersous because they are zealots, which is also not unique to Christinaity.

My point is that every reason you guys give for disliking Christians is applicable to all religious & social groups. To single out Christians is bigoted. And further, MOST Christians do believe in tolerance, forgiveness and love for all humankind.. how is that a bad thing?

BackFire
Because they don't preach what they claim too most of the time.

Every reason people give IS applicable to every religion for the most part, the problem is it happens in christianity more then it does in other religions. Like, it's almost always christians picketing against gay marriage, it's almost always christians complaining about violent movies/videogames, it's almost always christians complaining about taking the 10 commandments out of government buildings. They do the things people complain about much more often then others do.



It's dangerous to ignore everything outside of a fictional book, which is what christianity does.



No, I'm not saying that, but they do commit those acts more often then other people do, THAT's what I'm saying, nothing more.




No one said they need to be gotten rid of, Tex merely used the metaphor of "disease", meaning that they are dangerous, in his opinion, to the greater good of humanity. It's not like he's going to say they should all be killed or something. However, it is NOT my obligation (or anyone elses)to educate them in any way, they choose to believe what they believe, and most of them are far to stubborn to be persuaded otherwise by "educating" them. Why waste time trying to show them why they are wrong if they will never admit it? We've seen it happen in the numerous threads about gay marriage and gay equality, people will come in with all sorts of valid reasoning as to why gay marriage should be allowed, and a christian will come in and say "well the bible says this so this is right", and that's that.



Sure, if that's all that was said, but that's not the case, he also gave very valid reasons as to why he feels the way he does prior to calling them a disease.

lil bitchiness
People are converting from Christianity, or are becoming less...fundamentalist, so something is happening, thats for sure. I had a huge argument with a Christian on this boards yesterday and it was kinda suprising the comments I got - but i know that there are others who are not like that, such as Bilb here.

To group her, with the fundamentalist religious weirdos, would be just wrong.

I don't hate them - I feel compassion and sorrow because thy will spend their whole lives taking the bible literaly and some will even doubt it, yet continue to believe it because of fear of hell.

I cannot think of anyting worse then living your life in fear.

BackFire
Neither can I, but I don't pity them, they choose to do it themselves, no one makes them believe what they believe.

Tex
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So ultimately what you're saying here? Its noones responsibility to educate them, but this is whats wrong with them, and we hate them. They are disease and ultimately need to be got rid of...if that is not whats being said, then please explain what is being said?

Calling a group of people ''disease'' on society is not talking what is wrong with him - that is already preaching of hate and prejudice.

Hitler hated Jews - he hated everything about them and their beliefs. Ayatollah Khomeini hated Americans and everyhting about them and their beliefs...those were just nuts enough to act on their hate.

Hate, ignorance and greed are the biggest problems in our society - and if you think that to fight hate is to hate back, then you are sadly mistaken - hate only brings more hate, and more suffering.

Are you saying that only Christians are homophobic? Are you saying that only Christians ever killed in the nameof god? If so, then you are missinformed. The reality is much different. And generalisation is dangerous.

Talk to the hand Oprah! stick out tongue

I've made it very clear on many occasions that I feel every religion is wrong and detrimental to human advancement. Christianity affects me foremost (than the other religions) and as such receives my most detailed dislike! schmoll

It is impossible to educate those Christian heathen's! For they believe that questioning their beliefs is a deadly sin that will send them into the eternal pit-fires of hell where they'll be tortured alongside naked gay men and BF! stick out tongue

How dare you compare me to Hitler! mad With that hair style of his!?!?! I'm inconsolable!diva

I dont want to kill off the Christians, I just wish they would keep their beliefs to themselves and not try to force them into my government!

But that's impossible, because "god" told them to spread "his" word, which means forcing it upon the world at whatever means possible.

As far as the hate goes. I have no respect for anyone who discriminates unjustly. I justly hate. diva

lil bitchiness
Ewwwwwww! You compared me to Oprah and you're bitching that i compared you to Hitler!

I think its pretty obvious that your insult was worse! schmoll

bilb
Originally posted by Tex

It is impossible to educate those Christian heathen's! For they believe that questioning their beliefs is a deadly sin that will send them into the eternal pit-fires of hell where they'll be tortured alongside naked gay men and BF! stick out tongue

I dont want to kill off the Christians, I just wish they would keep their beliefs to themselves and not try to force them into my government!

But that's impossible, because "god" told them to spread "his" word, which means forcing it upon the world at whatever means possible.

diva

That is absolutely untrue, I consider myself quite educated and do what I can to keep myself aprised of all things that could/should influence my faith. I keep an open mind, learn all sides of an issue and then decide for myself.
And I too fervently believe ina seperation of church and state. I think it is vital for the government to continue as a democracy, is in fact that is what we still have.
Yes, God does call upon his people to spread his word but the manner in which one chooses to do so makes all the difference. I could stand on a street corner professiong 'the end is near!' or I can live my life in such a way that I believe reflects the teachings of Christ, which is what I try to do. I fail miserably of course, but that is the way in which I choose to floow this directive. Other choose various methods.. some good and some reprehensible, but its not the faith thats the problem, its the exection of acts in the name of that faith be it Christianity or otherwise.

AND FYI, saying the Bible is fictional is inaccurate and a bit insulting. Simply because you choose to not believe it does not make in a work of fiction. Its a matter of faith, and that is a point which ultimately cannot be argued. If you believe it you believe it, if you dont you dont.

BackFire
"AND FYI, saying the Bible is fictional is inaccurate and a bit insulting. Simply because you choose to not believe it does not make in a work of fiction. Its a matter of faith, and that is a point which ultimately cannot be argued. If you believe it you believe it, if you dont you dont."

Believing in something does not remove the reasonable label of a book with stories of talking snakes, a magician who can walk on water and turn water into wine and forbidden fruit as fiction. Almost nothing in the book can be proven as fact, as such, it is technically fiction, untill people can prove otherwise.

bilb
Ok, what do you take as proof then? There are HUNDREDS of documented accounts that these things did in fact take place.. were they ALL lying?? There is more historical proof to prove taht Jesus lived than there is to prove George Washington did.. CS Lewis, Mere Chrisitianity

and as a postnote, unless you can definitely prove that these events did NOT happen you cannot argue against them. Again it comes down to personal faith.

BackFire
No, they aren't lying, they were telling stories to get across morals, the bible is nothing more then a guide as to how one should live their life.

And I'm not talking about the names of the characters in the stories, I'm talking about the content of the stories as fictional.

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
No, they aren't lying, they were telling stories to get across morals, the bible is nothing more then a guide as to how one should live their life.

And I'm not talking about the names of the characters in the stories, I'm talking about the content of the stories as fictional.

Well yes & no. The stories do contain morals and that is its most effective use. However, there is substantial proof that they did take place.

And I am referring to the actual content as well.... You may choose to disbelieve them if you like, but I think if you were to research it on your own, without listening to zealots, bigots and the like you would find alot of beauty and alot of truth in those words, whether you choose to accept them as literal or metaphorical..

BackFire
Sorry, I can't bring myself to believe that a snake talked to Even and had her eat some forbidden fruit. I can't bring myself to believe some guy can walk on water, seeing as it's phyisically impossible.

Some small aspects may be true, but the vast majority of it is pure fiction, which is obvious if you really look.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Tex
Shuttup you cross worshiper! tongue10
If you love Jesus so much why dont you marry him!?!? schmoll
And dont even think about wearing white down the aisle! diva
Makes you look fat and clashes with those dark rings around your eyes and....I cant remember the other reason! naughty

Damn I'm hot! diva
Take notes doll! winkiss

......

I hate Christians so much because their beliefs directly affect my everyday life. It's really hard seeing as I live in The United States of Jesusland and my president is a born again evangelical Christian nut job who's driving my country back 200 years. The bible is the new constitution.

Jews and Muslims I dont agree with either but there's not many of them in the US so I cant be bothered hating them. Hating Christians is a lot of hard work doll! I need several spa pampering treatments to recuperate! eyes



Seems like you're sharing the boat with them then, cause your putting yourself in gods place to judge them..

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
Sorry, I can't bring myself to believe that a snake talked to Even and had her eat some forbidden fruit. I can't bring myself to believe some guy can walk on water, seeing as it's phyisically impossible.

Some small aspects may be true, but the vast majority of it is pure fiction, which is obvious if you really look.

I understand what you mean, I had alot of problems with these things as well for many years. However, there are great universal truths to be found, and once you embrace those everything alse seems insignificant

BackFire
Universal moral truths does not make the book non fiction. A lot of fiction books have moral truth and good lessons to be learned, they're still fiction.

bilb
Thats a good point, but like I said earlier, there are hundreds of accounts from all sorts of people who lived at that time that back up the stories. Until you have definitive proof that they didnt happen, your argument is one of emotion, not fact.

BackFire
That's not how proof works, you don't prove a negative, you prove a positive. By that, I mean you don't prove something doesn't exist, it's up to those who believe in something to prove it does exist. Untill something is proven to exist it is reasonable to say that it isn't real.

debbiejo
You can learn many good lessons from many religious writings...

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
That's not how proof works, you don't prove a negative, you prove a positive. By that, I mean you don't prove something doesn't exist, it's up to those who believe in something to prove it does exist. Untill something is proven to exist it is reasonable to say that it isn't real.

Yes thats true, so I will say it for the third time.. There are HUNDREDS of accounts to back the stories of the New Testament. In dealing with past generations teh most conclusive evidence is historical therefore I believe I HAVE proved this, again & again. I once more refer you to C. S. Lewis book Mere Christianity... he lays it out much more eloquently than I can

BackFire
So you believe everything in the bible is true, and really happened?

phinney6
Originally posted by bilb
That is absolutely untrue, I consider myself quite educated and do what I can to keep myself aprised of all things that could/should influence my faith. I keep an open mind, learn all sides of an issue and then decide for myself.
And I too fervently believe ina seperation of church and state. I think it is vital for the government to continue as a democracy, is in fact that is what we still have.
Yes, God does call upon his people to spread his word but the manner in which one chooses to do so makes all the difference. I could stand on a street corner professiong 'the end is near!' or I can live my life in such a way that I believe reflects the teachings of Christ, which is what I try to do. I fail miserably of course, but that is the way in which I choose to floow this directive. Other choose various methods.. some good and some reprehensible, but its not the faith thats the problem, its the exection of acts in the name of that faith be it Christianity or otherwise.

AND FYI, saying the Bible is fictional is inaccurate and a bit insulting. Simply because you choose to not believe it does not make in a work of fiction. Its a matter of faith, and that is a point which ultimately cannot be argued. If you believe it you believe it, if you dont you dont.

completely agreed. yes I am a christian. No I am not a bigot. No I do not agree with muslims who slaughter (although the real muslim religion is peaceful) yet saying I do not agree with muslims who murder gets me called a racist. Yes I think all people are equal. yes I am sick of being wrongly accused as being a bigot and racist because im a christian. Do I have a problem with homosexuality, no. Would I have gay friends, yes. Would I want them to come onto me or flaunt it in a way that makes me uncomfortable, no I would want them to respect me as I respect them. Are good people going to heavan regardless of religion, imo yes. Are bad people going to hell regardless of religion. yes imo. I again repeat, I hate being labeled as a Bigot because Im a christian.

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
So you believe everything in the bible is true, and really happened?

Forgive the expression, but 'from a certain point of view' yes it is. I think th Bible was inspired by God and written by men, Men are falliable and make mistakes. They use incoreect timelines, metaphors and parables to get across a certain point, and at times I think embellished things.. that does not take away from the message. You just have to be willing to let it into your heart and see past the errors of man to see the greater truth..

Tex

bilb
Originally posted by DCLXVI
JP> Your first post "(Americans, Christians)" is ignorant, because not all Americans are Christians &/or Catholics, so you should not group them so. wink



Seeing as how you meant me, I will reply.. in that first post I wasnt sure where this thread was headed so I posted something off the top of my head. Now that there is actually something to debate I think you will see from my other posts that I have explained my views more fully since then..

And Phinn.............. absolutely

bilb

BackFire
Originally posted by bilb
Forgive the expression, but 'from a certain point of view' yes it is. I think th Bible was inspired by God and written by men, Men are falliable and make mistakes. They use incoreect timelines, metaphors and parables to get across a certain point, and at times I think embellished things.. that does not take away from the message. You just have to be willing to let it into your heart and see past the errors of man to see the greater truth..


Sorry, to vague, not a valid answer.

Do you think everything in the bible actually happened, as it says in the bible?

bilb
I answered you, if you dont care for my answer so be it, but it comes down to faith..

bilb
But I tell ya, there is one thing about you anti christians that cracks me up.. The oppositee of love is not hate but indifference. So by your fervent posting I assume you HATE my religion, as you are entitled to do, but hate iimplies passion which implies an emotional attachment. So tell me, do you hate it ot are you indifferent? And if you are indifferent why waste so much of your time debating something you could care less about?

Tex
Originally posted by bilb
Even scholars who dont believe in its tennats will tel you it is a very accurate look at th ehistory of the time..

You mean to tell me that you actually believe the world as we know it today was created in 6 days? (Scientifically disproved)

Or that a great flood covered the entire planet and wiped out every living thing except what was on Noah's ark? (Scientifically disproved)

Or that humans were created from sand and a rib? (Scientifically disproved)

Or that dragons and satyrs roamed the earth and angels danced in the skies? (I haven't seen any of those around have you?)

Yes, very accurate look at the history of the time. stick out tongue

Tex
Originally posted by bilb
And if you are indifferent why waste so much of your time debating something you could care less about?

Because your Christian president and senators and congressmen are forcing their religious beliefs into my everyday life.

bilb
So? If you could care less then stop arguing

Jedi Priestess
Well you can always move Tex. Honestly, trying to argue religion on a forum board is pointless. No one wins.

bilb
Originally posted by Tex
You mean to tell me that you actually believe the world as we know it today was created in 6 days? (Scientifically disproved)

Or that a great flood covered the entire planet and wiped out every living thing except what was on Noah's ark? (Scientifically disproved)

Or that humans were created from sand and a rib? (Scientifically disproved)

Or that dragons and satyrs roamed the earth and angels danced in the skies? (I haven't seen any of those around have you?)

Yes, very accurate look at the history of the time. stick out tongue

See above reply to Back Fire's question as to whether I believe all of the Bible or not

And at what point have I done anything but state my OWN personal feelings? I havent tried to convert you so what do you care?

Tex
Why move? Why do I care? Almost half the country agrees with me. I'm going to work to make this country the best it can be.

Return to a democratic government that is more concerned with schools, education, health care and jobs that stays out of people's bedrooms and doesn't panhandle Christianity.

Jedi Priestess
What are you smoking? Cause your dealer ripped you off. I have to say that I have met more atheists at KMC in the last year of my life than I have the other 43 years. It's like some little coven here. And you guys make it a point to attack Christians for some reason. I dont see any thread evidence of any Christian member holding an assembly or a big conversion. But you just mention God in a thread and the atheists flock to it to condemn you, like a monkey on a cookie. Yet we are the intolerant ones. roll eyes (sarcastic)

bilb
Originally posted by Tex
Why move? Why do I care? Almost half the country agrees with me. I'm going to work to make this country the best it can be.

Return to a democratic government that is more concerned with schools, education, health care and jobs that stays out of people's bedrooms and doesn't panhandle Christianity.

I already said I agree with that. Separation of church and state is vital IMO.. so why are we argiung??

bilb
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
What are you smoking? Cause your dealer ripped you off. I have to say that I have met more atheists at KMC in the last year of my life than I have the other 43 years. It's like some little coven here. And you guys make it a point to attack Christians for some reason. I dont see any thread evidence of any Christian member holding an assembly or a big conversion. But you just mention God in a thread and the atheists flock to it to condemn you, like a monkey on a cookie. Yet we are the intolerant ones. roll eyes (sarcastic)

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT

Tex
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
What are you smoking? Cause your dealer ripped you off. I have to say that I have met more atheists at KMC in the last year of my life than I have the other 43 years. It's like some little coven here. And you guys make it a point to attack Christians for some reason. I dont see any thread evidence of any Christian member holding an assembly or a big conversion. But you just mention God in a thread and the atheists flock to it to condemn you, like a monkey on a cookie. Yet we are the intolerant ones. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I believe in god, I'm a deist.
www.deism.org

Although I share many beliefs held by atheists.

Jedi Priestess
I've actually come to believe that there is some kind of anti-christian red alert button you all have that sends out a beacon like the bat signal to send non-christians running to threads to flame Christians myself. laughing out loud

bilb
Originally posted by Tex
I believe in god, I'm a deist.
www.deism.org

Although I share many beliefs held by atheists.

OK I'm intrigued.. what exaclty do you believe then??

Tex
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I've actually come to believe that there is some kind of anti-christian red alert button you all have that sends out a beacon like the bat signal to send non-christians running to threads to flame Christians myself. laughing out loud

Who told you!?!? mad

Errr I mean, that's so silly its preposterous! whistle

Tex
Originally posted by bilb
OK I'm intrigued.. what exaclty do you believe then??

From the site I mentioned:

Deism (n): Belief in God as revealed by nature and reason combined with a disbelief in scripture, prophets, superstition and church authority.

Deism is a free-thought philosophy, much like Agnosticism, Atheism or Pantheism in that it rejects the dogmas and superstitions of religion in favor of individual reason and empirical observation of the universe. Deism differs from these other free-thought philosophies in that it sees an order and architecture to the universe that indicates a Creator. The word "God" is used to describe this creator, not to be confused with the "Biblegod."

Deism notes that we as humans are endowed with the power of reason and an indomitable spirit. It follows that we are intended to exercise them. Therefore, skepticism and doubt are not "sins" but rather natural expressions of God's gift of reason.

Because skepticism and doubt are not sins, Deists view with extreme suspicion any efforts by other humans to claim divine authority, such as claiming to be a "prophet" or citing "sacred scripture" said to be written by alleged prophets (as in the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc.). Placing faith in scriptures, prophets, priests, churches, "holy" figures, or traditions is surrendering your personal reason to another source. Usually, this other source has far less interest in "the state of your soul" as the accumulation of wealth and political power.

With scripture and revelation removed, all that remains to know God is personal reason and observation of the universe. Essentially, this is getting to know the artist by studying the artwork. The only "Word of God" is the universe itself.

Jedi Priestess
Never heard of this before, but hey whatever floats your boat I say.

BackFire
Originally posted by bilb
But I tell ya, there is one thing about you anti christians that cracks me up.. The oppositee of love is not hate but indifference. So by your fervent posting I assume you HATE my religion, as you are entitled to do, but hate iimplies passion which implies an emotional attachment. So tell me, do you hate it ot are you indifferent? And if you are indifferent why waste so much of your time debating something you could care less about?

You assume wrong, what I hate is some of the improper shit that gets equated to your religion. I think, in essence, in it's most basic form, christianity is awesome, has some good morals and lessons that is good for everyone to follow, no matter what religion they may be. However, there are some very very questionable things and methods that christianity condones, and some christians annoy the piss out of me, but, as you've said numerous times, that's not unique to your religion.

I'm indifferent towards your religion, if it disapeared tommorow, I wouldn't be happy, I wouldn't be angry, I wouldn't care.

I debate this because I enjoy it, it's interesting to hear others opinion on the topic, and I've never even said anything to denote that I hate your religion, just asking questions and having a discussion.

bilb
Originally posted by Tex
From the site I mentioned:

Deism (n): Belief in God as revealed by nature and reason combined with a disbelief in scripture, prophets, superstition and church authority.

Deism is a free-thought philosophy, much like Agnosticism, Atheism or Pantheism in that it rejects the dogmas and superstitions of religion in favor of individual reason and empirical observation of the universe. Deism differs from these other free-thought philosophies in that it sees an order and architecture to the universe that indicates a Creator. The word "God" is used to describe this creator, not to be confused with the "Biblegod."

Deism notes that we as humans are endowed with the power of reason and an indomitable spirit. It follows that we are intended to exercise them. Therefore, skepticism and doubt are not "sins" but rather natural expressions of God's gift of reason.

Because skepticism and doubt are not sins, Deists view with extreme suspicion any efforts by other humans to claim divine authority, such as claiming to be a "prophet" or citing "sacred scripture" said to be written by alleged prophets (as in the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc.). Placing faith in scriptures, prophets, priests, churches, "holy" figures, or traditions is surrendering your personal reason to another source. Usually, this other source has far less interest in "the state of your soul" as the accumulation of wealth and political power.

With scripture and revelation removed, all that remains to know God is personal reason and observation of the universe. Essentially, this is getting to know the artist by studying the artwork. The only "Word of God" is the universe itself.

You may not believe this but I happen to agree with alot of that. While I do believe the Bible and its prophets I also believe that blind faith is no faith. To that end I have researched this on my own and have my own set of beliefs, some that coincide with the church, some that do not. I do however believe that the utmost important aspect is to have a personal one on one relationship with God, which sounds alot like what you are saying

Jedi Priestess
Thats pretty much where I'm at as well Bilb. I just despise the flamefests that originate by people who wont accept people who do have a belief system. I honestly could give a rats ass if someone believes in God, religion is a personal thing IMHO, but I do have a problem with someone not allowing me to HAVE my own beliefs without being critized for them as some kind of fanatic.

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
You assume wrong, what I hate is some of the improper shit that gets equated to your religion. I think, in essence, in it's most basic form, christianity is awesome, has some good morals and lessons that is good for everyone to follow, no matter what religion they may be. However, there are some very very questionable things and methods that christianity condones, and some christians annoy the piss out of me, but, as you've said numerous times, that's not unique to your religion.

I'm indifferent towards your religion, if it disapeared tommorow, I wouldn't be happy, I wouldn't be angry, I wouldn't care.

I debate this because I enjoy it, it's interesting to hear others opinion on the topic, and I've never even said anything to denote that I hate your religion, just asking questions and having a discussion.

Ok, point taken. And I agree that ' there are some very very questionable things and methods that christianity condones'.. never denied it. And I enjoy a good rational debate as well so I applaud you for debating with integruty and not stooping to flames or condescension..

BackFire
Yeah, and don't let Tex get to you, you have to remember, he lives in Texas, the crazy conservative christian capital of the world, I'm sure he's encountered more annoying wacky bible pushers then you or I combined. I'm sure he doesn't actually think EVERY christian is bad or evil or bible pushers, he's just had some bad experiences, and I can't really blame him. Because the few really annoying ones I've encountered can really give the whole religion a bad name.

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
Yeah, and don't let Tex get to you, you have to remember, he lives in Texas, the crazy conservative christian capital of the world, I'm sure he's encountered more annoying wacky bible pushers then you or I combined. I'm sure he doesn't actually think EVERY christian is bad or evil or bible pushers, if he does, he's wrong.

He didnt get to me.. But I am sure that that is VERY true!! laughing

Jedi Priestess
Well it is Texas after all. wink

bilb
Originally posted by BackFire
Because the few really annoying ones I've encountered can really give the whole religion a bad name.

I know exactly what you mean, believe me it makes me just as furious seeing as how I feel I have to defend myself simply because of their ignorance..

Tex
Tell me about it girls! Everywhere I look people have Jesus fish on their cars and W2004 on their bumpers.

The horror!

Luckily I live in the Gay Jewish part of town. People I can relate too! stick out tongue

finti
never heard of deist before?.......hmm didnt they ever teach you in school that many of your countries founding fathers where practicing deists, or maybe they didnt share the founding fathers view on that matter and left that little detail out

Jedi Priestess
Might have, but that more than likely would have been in Religion class and that was my nap time. laughing out loud

finti
actally I would say that it belonged more to US history class than religion class

bilb
laughing

Jedi Priestess
Originally posted by finti
actally I would say that it belonged more to US history class than religion class

Nope I was awake for history I'm sure of it. laughing out loud

finti
well seeing that you didnt know this Im sure you werent awake big grin

BlackC@t
I'm pissed that christians think psychic abilities is the devil trying to get through to you.

When God "sent us to Earth" he each gave us a small degree of psychic abilities to help us.

It's our birth right, not some ****ing plan of the devils.

Get over it.

Jedi Priestess
Ah yes, another person who feels the need to lump all Christians into one big basket. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I dont think your theory is the work of the devil at all, stupid, yep, dumbest thing I ever heard, but not the work of the devil.

Next time you decide to make a blanket statement, make sure you are speaking for all Christians as you claim to be. laughing out loud

debbiejo
Originally posted by Tex
Because your Christian president and senators and congressmen are forcing their religious beliefs into my everyday life.

HOW?

Jury
Praise be to God. smile

I thank God I'm Christian.

lil bitchiness
Ok, this is from my point of view and to offer an apology to anyone who feels offended from my side in any way. It was never my intention, Christian or non Christian.



I understand fundamentalism, and I understand there is a lot of it in America, and perhaps my view on all of this is different, because I am on the outside. I do not have personal experiences or prejudices and I also see beyond America, and as someone who is an active member of Amnesty International, I do not belive in prejudices or hate - but I also do not believe in extremism. Religion is not a legitimate excuse for hate of people different to oneself especially in the terms of skin colour, sexuality or gender - and the sad fact is, it happens everywhere and in all major organized religions.

I understand that people get affected in their every day lives by fundamentalist Christians, but at the same time I know not all are fundamentalist and not all of them fit the profile of the crazy bible-basher discriminators.
My view is different to yours when it comes to Christians because I am an neutral outside party. But I udnerstand your frustration at the fundamentalist Christians. I think thats healthy to understand that there is something wrong with few people - however not all are like that, i am pretty sure.

I am also more alert to the fact that, there are people outside America who are oppressed by other religions on the daily bases, yet because I am not there, just like I am not in America, i feel for them just as much as I feel for Americans and their fundamentalist.

Like I said this before, fundamentalism is a result of ignorance and arrogance, and any person suffering under the law of religion has my sympathy and my compassion, regardless of where they are.

The fact that Christians in America do not have ''honour killings'' ''morality police'' and ''blood money'' kind of gives me hope that there is a way out - through education.

Christians are not opressive force around the world, and here is how much a life of a Hindu woman is worth compared to the life of a Muslim man in Saudi Arabia when paid in blood money -



''The Wall Street Journal, April 9, 2002: In Saudi Arabia , there is the concept of blood money. If a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the latter has to pay blood money or compensation, as follows:

100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man

50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman

50,000 riyals if a Christian man

25,000 riyals if a Christian woman

6,666 riyals if a Hindu man

3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman
That is, a Muslim man's life is worth 33 times that of a Hindu woman''



It is for this reason i cannot accept that only Christians are the horrible tyrants - because regardless of their crazy attitudes, people there have more freedom than many other people around the world. I believe in re-form and education - and separation of church and state, obviously.


So again, my apologies to anyone who felt offended in any way - it was never my intention.

finti
I thank whatever that I aint

debbiejo
You thank what ever???

What ever are you thanking??

Echuu
He's thanking the scientists who came up with evolution.

finti
yeah whatever reason there is that I aint a christian

debbiejo
OHH...reason..I thought maybe you were thanking something else...

Silly Me...

finti
now there is at least one thing we agree on eek! evil face

debbiejo
Believe..believe...You almost thanked god that you weren't a Christian....

bilb
Originally posted by BlackC@t
I'm pissed that christians think psychic abilities is the devil trying to get through to you.

When God "sent us to Earth" he each gave us a small degree of psychic abilities to help us.

It's our birth right, not some ****ing plan of the devils.

Get over it.

I have no earthly idea what this means nor what is has to do with the topic at hand confused

BlackC@t
Don't worry about it. I'm paid to be mysterious.

finti
well I could be jewish doing that so..............

Jackie Malfoy
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I myself am not a Christian, but I cannot help but wonder as to why there is such an immense prejudice against Christians only.

If anyone could possibly explain to me, as to why is Christianity is worse than Islam or Judaism in its ideas, then I would be most grateful.

Most of you who preach tolerance and the fact that there should be no discrimination are the very same people who constantly discriminate and trash Christians - so you're doing the very same thing you're condemning the Christians for. Whys that?

If you are blatantly against organized religion than that does indeed include Judaism and Islam, yet everyone is directly referencing to Christianity. Does, somehow the fact that you are surrounded by Christians give you a Christan-bash-free card? It really doesnt.

So I would like to know, why?

All input welcome.

Becaues think it is fine to go around making fun of christians but is afraid to go aorund making fun of the jews or the budist or what not.I think this is unfair.
Not that we shall be making fun of any religon but Christians should not be mocked at all.We should respect religon and not make fun of them.JM smile

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
well I could be jewish doing that so..............


Just curious...In your conversations, I'm sure you wouldn't say...

I thank whatever that I didn't catch that flu.

What do you say?? roll eyes (sarcastic)

finti
thank the beers I downed for not catching the flue

debbiejo
OK OK..I knew you'd think of somethin.

I thank beer the weathers great! eek!

And you?

bilb
Originally posted by BlackC@t
Don't worry about it. I'm paid to be mysterious.

Oki dok then! Gotcha!! wink

finti
thanks (to) the beers she didnt look all that bad

debbiejo
laughing out loud

Beer does have a god like power..

lil bitchiness
laughing out loud

It also makes people fat...or gives them beer belly's cheers

finti
thanks the beers for my honest body beer beer

FeceMan
Why?

I'll tell you why--because they are all hypocrites of the worst kind.

God forbid that one should categorize Muslims as terrorists; you'll bring the wrath of the liberal upon oneself. But, hey, look at Christians as all being Bible-thumpers and you're good to go--nobody likes us anyhow.

Honestly, who cares that a guy at my church was just killed while in Cairo because a Muslim detonated a nail bomb near him? But look at those Christians protesting abortions! They are the TRUE religious zealots who deserve to be persecuted!

finti
have a beer and chill out

lil bitchiness
hahaha

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by FeceMan
Honestly, who cares that a guy at my church was just killed while in Cairo because a Muslim detonated a nail bomb near him?

Was this "guy from your church" a missionary? I do not suppose Christians trying to proselytize Muslims in a predominantly Muslim country goes over too well.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Was this "guy from your church" a missionary? I do not suppose Christians trying to proselytize Muslims in a predominantly Muslim country goes over too well.
He and his brother (who is currently in a hospital in Germany, ICU) were traveling through Africa as missionaries, yes, and they stopped in Egypt for one reason or another. However, I would certainly hope that you would not be trying to justify these actions.

finti
people, experience what I have and then lets meet again and discuss a deity

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by FeceMan
However, I would certainly hope that you would not be trying to justify these actions.

It is not a justification, but an explanation. Going to a Muslim country and trying to convert Muslims to Christianity is not going to make you many friends.

lil bitchiness
Yeah, thinking about it, its a very bad move, especially since Christians, Jews or Hindues (or any other religion for that matter) are not allowed to pray publicly in many ultra Muslim countries. Going there to convert people is very very bad idea...

finti
as I always said , belief shouldl be a personal matter

debbiejo
Well knowing history, Christians are always going into foreign countries and trying to convert beliefs...When they came here, they did it to the native Americans...In history..It was the Catholic church doing it..

.It's almost like a plague, locusts of preachers...Though they feel its for your eternity's sake.

DirectorFitz
plus alot of people have turned christianity into a faith of hate...and it gives it a bad name

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