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Both of them are dark rite now. WHo wins?

Luke. Even if he is a half trained farm boy, he would be far too powerful for Obi-Wan to luck his way out of this one.

Let's say Luke killed Qui-Gon so Obi wants revenge. Obi attacked the rebels' ships so Luke wants revenge. I say Luke.

Luke owns him, TPM Obi-Wan, darkside or not couldn't take Vader

Definitely Luke !

i think ob1 wuld win

Obi easily..

A untrained farm boy against a Jedi Padawan thats about ready to become a knight?

Luke doesn't stand a chance

yeah!!!!

Untrained farm boy? yeah right. He mastered telekinesis, the Jedi Mind Trick, Force Jump, and Force Choke and was just as close to a Jedi knight as Obi-Wan. He actually defeated Vader, (who killed many Jedi knights) Obi killed Maul but was clearly weaker, and he did not defeat Maul.

Luke would win fairly easily.

I would have to say Obi-Wan. Luke didn't exactly defeat Vader either because Vader was holding back against Luke and if he wanted to he could have decimated Luke right there. Obi-Wan IMO is more skilled because he has had much more experience and training. Son of Skywalker Luke may be, but Skywalker blood doesn't mean squat if you don't have adequate training.

True

I think that in the OT it looks like they are actually hiting hard with their lightsabers. In the PT it looks like they are just tapping.

Luke wins.

The prequel fighters were a lot faster and more skilled because it was the golden time of the Jedi Knights, where lightsaber duels were a lot more common.

Though they really look like they are just tapping thier lightsabers together. In the OT, they are swinging hard.

Because they were. David Prowse hit Alec so hard he went flying.

But seriously, ROTJ Luke does not have Jedi discipline. You cannot say he acquired the discipline between ANH and ROTJ that would surpass Obi-Wan (Who was 25 at the time of TPM) 's entire life as a jedi! It's not even reasonable.

And Luke did not master all of those skills mentioned, Revan33. IF he had mastered telekinesis, he would have been able to do any number of feats with it and not had to chuck a rock at the button in ROTJ, nor would he have been unable to fully lift his own X-wing in ESB. Even if you cite the years difference between those movies, -it is not enough to master a Force talent!-. Luke may have raw Force potential unlike most others, but he isn't automatically given Force mastery, too. IF he did, he would not have been so oblivious to his own affinity with the Force for so many years. I mean, he was twenty in ANH and he never once did any of these things.

Next, he did not master the Mind Trick. If he had, it would have worked on Jabba, unless the blob was using some spice or concoction to block the affects. While the Force can easily dominate the weaker willed and minded, a strong mastery and power of the Force can dominate those stronger, too. It just requires practice. Do you doubt that Ben could not mind trick Jabba?

Again, Force jumping is the most basic of Jedi manuevers. We saw Luke practising it with Yoda, and we know Obi-Wan was quite full of such abilities in TPM. But one force related skill you neglected to mention was blaster bolt deflection. Watch TPM. Obi-Wan was clearly better at it. He did it more often, and for longer. Now, that means little in a no blasters duel BUT it does imply a basic knowledge of defense and skill that Luke would not have on the same level.

Next, the Force Choke. He didn't exactly master it. If he had, he could have choked even Sidious perhaps, since everyone claims Luke has Anakin's former power level, which was higher than Sidious'.

All in all, you can't expect Luke to win. And since this isn't a movie series where the Force and the Chosen One Jr. plot element can be used as an argument point, Luke loses. Pwned.

Maybe Luke didn't have the experience that Obi had, but Luke fought in a time of war whereas Obi didn't.

Luke had mastered telekinesis, he was lifting 3 or 4 crates and R2 at the same time in ESB. What did Obi do with it? Nothing Luke didn't do.

No, I doubt Obi or even Qui-Gon could mind trick Jabba, he was very strong minded. Besides, Obi only used it on one guy, so the two are equal here.

As for blaster bolt deflection, I think they are equal again. Luke takes a whole Sail barge of living creatures while Obi fights against droids that are more predictable. Luke even deflects the bolts of a speeder bike. If Obi is better here it's only slightly.

As for Force Choke, most Force users can resist it, a barely trained Streen resisted against the spirit of Exar Kun for pete sakes. It takes a very powerful Force user with a strong will to use Force Choke on other Force users and succeed.

I never once said anything about the Chosen One because I can't stand the whole thing. I think being Anakin's son gives him more potential but mastery of it is something else. However, Luke is a very quick learner so even with less experience he was still very powerful. Besides in the ROTJ book, Luke is able to deflect the Emperor's Force Lightning for a few seconds with his bare hands, but only for a few seconds.

And with the whole Vader would win if he was trying thing. Bull crap. In the book and in the movie, Vader IS trying but he can't keep up with Luke. Lucas says that Luke is (very least) as strong as Vader is in ROTJ. And why would Vader let his son kill him anyway? So Luke could take his spot? yeah right. He was too power hungry for that.

Luke would beat Obi with ease.

Originally posted by Darth Revan33
Maybe Luke didn't have the experience that Obi had, but Luke fought in a time of war whereas Obi didn't.

Luke had mastered telekinesis, he was lifting 3 or 4 crates and R2 at the same time in ESB. What did Obi do with it? Nothing Luke didn't do.

No, I doubt Obi or even Qui-Gon could mind trick Jabba, he was very strong minded. Besides, Obi only used it on one guy, so the two are equal here.

As for blaster bolt deflection, I think they are equal again. Luke takes a whole Sail barge of living creatures while Obi fights against droids that are more predictable. Luke even deflects the bolts of a speeder bike. If Obi is better here it's only slightly.

As for Force Choke, most Force users can resist it, a barely trained Streen resisted against the spirit of Exar Kun for pete sakes. It takes a very powerful Force user with a strong will to use Force Choke on other Force users and succeed.

I never once said anything about the Chosen One because I can't stand the whole thing. I think being Anakin's son gives him more potential but mastery of it is something else. However, Luke is a very quick learner so even with less experience he was still very powerful. Besides in the ROTJ book, Luke is able to deflect the Emperor's Force Lightning for a few seconds with his bare hands, but only for a few seconds.

And with the whole Vader would win if he was trying thing. Bull crap. In the book and in the movie, Vader IS trying but he can't keep up with Luke. Lucas says that Luke is (very least) as strong as Vader is in ROTJ. And why would Vader let his son kill him anyway? So Luke could take his spot? yeah right. He was too power hungry for that.

Luke would beat Obi with ease.

First- Luke was a fighter pilot for the Rebellion. Obi-Wan Kenobi was a Jedi padawan who was doubtless in many ground comflicts with his master before the events of TPM. Being a farm boy and a fighter pilot don't make you a war veteran. They make you a softie with quick lever hands.

Luke lifted three crates and R2 D2... which, in your own words, is nothing Obi-Wan couldn't do. So taking that and your earlier statement, you have concluded that both are masters of telekinesis. Add that with my statement of Obi-Wan having more experience with the Force as a Jedi and Obi-Wins.

Watch the beginning of TPM where Obi-Wan deflects blaster bolts while in, what is it? A smoke covered room? And he's about even with Luke, who almost lost his fake hand to a blaster bolt shot? Pfft.

Now, on to the book. I have in my possession an original copy of the three novelisations, one of which predates the movies. You should see the paintings on the front of ANH. It's old school as hell. Anyways... The original novelisation was, more or less, the movies. But Luke didn't reflect or absorb the Force lightning. That is suspicious and very different from what I read. Not saying it isn't in the book you read, but still... rings of suspicion. And keep in mind that Vader hated the Emperor as he hated nothing else save himself. He would rather die than kill his own son. If he had had other goals, there would be no ROTJ.

Lastly, I want you to take a look at Luke's fighting style in ROTJ and ESB. Lightsaber combat has been defined as the method of solving comflicts between Forceusers by GL himself. Unless the difference in power was SO great that the lesser Force user could be just destroyed, the true answer to who is superior is in skill with a lightsaber. How refined and effective does Luke fight? Horribly. Don't try to say any different. He was a kid at a pinata party.

The only real fight you have to base Luke on is the fight between him and Vader in ESB... He hasn't recieved anymore training sinse then, just killed a few people.

Did you see how much he got owned there? Vader toyed around with him like it was nothing, he didn't care he could have killed Luke easily there but he didn't. Luke didn't stand a chance against Vader, at least not if Vader would have wanted him dead. But he didn't. Luke never once faced an opponent worth facing, in ESB he gets owned by Vader and in ROTJ he goes insane with rage and manages to win.

And no Luke did not master any force power, in ESB he has a hard time drawing his lightsaber towards him. In ROTJ he has a hard time lifting C3P0 in the air... Seriously Obi could have done that much easier... Much much easier. Luke is untrained with a shit load of potential but a serious lack of training and experience he would die...

Obi would destroy Luke so easy. I actually don't think it would take longer then a minute really. Obi was trained by some of the best Jedi's first hand for decades, and killed a full fledged Sith. Sure Maul was an apprentice, but he was a Sith apprentice that was fully trained for a very long time. Maul was kick ass and Obi beat him. I don't know what movie you guys were watching, but I thought Luke was clearly outclassed by Vader until he chose not to kill his own son. Vader could have beaten the farm boy in seconds if he wanted to. Luke doesn't become strong until several years after ROTJ. He's still a pushover by the end of the OT. Obi would walk all over him easy...

What idiot started this whole "Vader would win if he was trying" crap? In the book and in the movie, Vader IS trying but he can't keep up with Luke. Lucas says that Luke is (very least) as strong as Vader is in ROTJ. Luke wanted to fight even less than Vader did, and Vader still got owned. Why do I say that? Look at ESB. Luke got owned in that one and at that time it's true, Vader wasn't trying to kill him. Even IF that were true in ROTJ why wouldn't he have whooped Luke the same way as ESB? Instead he got whooped himself. Watch the fight again. Luke is clearly superior to Vader. Yet you guys still think Vader wanted to die at the hands of his son so that Luke could take his spot, even though Luke wasn't even trying to kill him. When he did start trying, it took him 40 seconds to overpower that walking garbage disposal.

Now in response to Janus' arguments. They are equal in many areas of the Force, though Luke demonstrates more power. Now Obi has more experience, but Luke is a quicker learner, and learned from Ben and Yoda as their only student.

Onto the book part. I didn't realize this the first time I looked through it but I was looking throught the special edition copy, it's 181 pages and James Kahn wrote it. It's a maroonish color and on the front is the weird looking picture for the original "A new hope" with Luke holding the lightsaber up etc. Now this is exactly what Vader thinks "He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel- not to mention the boy's timing which was honed to a thought's-breadth." Then it goes on to say Vader was feeling humiliation, surprise, and fear. Later it says "the boy was clever indeed- Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now" when he's searching for Luke. Now when Luke gets angry it says "The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's." Next as the Emperor starts to electrocute Luke, he is thinking "But if it was Force generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially he was successful-the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls."

Lastly, about Luke's fighting. Yes in the movies it looks pretty bad, but it's still good enough to defeat Vader. Obi's wasn't enought to defeat Maul. (lightsaber combat, not the whole fight)

Luke I think, dunno

Originally posted by Darth Revan33
What idiot started this whole "Vader would win if he was trying" crap? In the book and in the movie, Vader IS trying but he can't keep up with Luke. Lucas says that Luke is (very least) as strong as Vader is in ROTJ. Luke wanted to fight even less than Vader did, and Vader still got owned. Why do I say that? Look at ESB. Luke got owned in that one and at that time it's true, Vader wasn't trying to kill him. Even IF that were true in ROTJ why wouldn't he have whooped Luke the same way as ESB? Instead he got whooped himself. Watch the fight again. Luke is clearly superior to Vader. Yet you guys still think Vader wanted to die at the hands of his son so that Luke could take his spot, even though Luke wasn't even trying to kill him. When he did start trying, it took him 40 seconds to overpower that walking garbage disposal.

Now in response to Janus' arguments. They are equal in many areas of the Force, though Luke demonstrates more power. Now Obi has more experience, but Luke is a quicker learner, and learned from Ben and Yoda as their only student.

Onto the book part. I didn't realize this the first time I looked through it but I was looking throught the special edition copy, it's 181 pages and James Kahn wrote it. It's a maroonish color and on the front is the weird looking picture for the original "A new hope" with Luke holding the lightsaber up etc. Now this is exactly what Vader thinks "He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel- not to mention the boy's timing which was honed to a thought's-breadth." Then it goes on to say Vader was feeling humiliation, surprise, and fear. Later it says "the boy was clever indeed- Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now" when he's searching for Luke. Now when Luke gets angry it says "The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's." Next as the Emperor starts to electrocute Luke, he is thinking "But if it was Force generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially he was successful-the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls."

Lastly, about Luke's fighting. Yes in the movies it looks pretty bad, but it's still good enough to defeat Vader. Obi's wasn't enought to defeat Maul. (lightsaber combat, not the whole fight)

Phew. You're stubborn. Let me try to persuade you again...

First off, Vader is stronger than Luke physically. He has more experience. He has better knowledge of the Force. He was Luke's superior in about every way except Luke had a better tan and could tie his boot straps himself.

Luke is no Jedi. He is a farm boy a few years into a real world, and with less than a year of Jedi training. And I mean real training. There is a difference between someone who picks up a gun and is a weekend warrior and someone who is a professional soldier. BIG difference. Also, where is your cited proof that Luke demonstrates more power than Obi-Wan? Where? What did he do in the trilogy that I have seen a dozen times that was more impressive than Obi-Wan? Or old Ben? Hell.

Secondly, the movies and the books aren't on the same level of authenticity. Movie overrules even novelisations when it comes down to what's what regarding the movie characters. Soooo... When comparing and using the two, we have to go with the movie version. Thus Luke DIDN'T reflect the lightning for a second or two. And that also means we don't know what Vader was thinking about during the fight between him and his son in ROTJ, other than "I hope I didn't leave the iron on" and "Damn it's hard to breath and get hit like a pinata while backpeddling." While Luke pwned his pops for plotline neccessity, I don't think he truly beat him 100% and certainly wasn't his better.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus

Do you doubt that Ben could not mind trick Jabba?


I dont think anyone could mind trick jabba, just like no one can mind trick watto. Some races just dont get effected by it.

Ah, but Hutts CAN be mind tricked. They're not Toydarians. Luke simply wasn't strong enough in the art.

ALL races can be affected by it. The are ALL part of the force and can be influenced by it.

yes,,luke just needed more practice

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Phew. You're stubborn. Let me try to persuade you again...

First off, Vader is stronger than Luke physically. He has more experience. He has better knowledge of the Force. He was Luke's superior in about every way except Luke had a better tan and could tie his boot straps himself.

Luke is no Jedi. He is a farm boy a few years into a real world, and with less than a year of Jedi training. And I mean real training. There is a difference between someone who picks up a gun and is a weekend warrior and someone who is a professional soldier. BIG difference. Also, where is your cited proof that Luke demonstrates more power than Obi-Wan? Where? What did he do in the trilogy that I have seen a dozen times that was more impressive than Obi-Wan? Or old Ben? Hell.

Secondly, the movies and the books aren't on the same level of authenticity. Movie overrules even novelisations when it comes down to what's what regarding the movie characters. Soooo... When comparing and using the two, we have to go with the movie version. Thus Luke DIDN'T reflect the lightning for a second or two. And that also means we don't know what Vader was thinking about during the fight between him and his son in ROTJ, other than "I hope I didn't leave the iron on" and "Damn it's hard to breath and get hit like a pinata while backpeddling." While Luke pwned his pops for plotline neccessity, I don't think he truly beat him 100% and certainly wasn't his better.

Stubborn? lol, well yeah. But your not?

Anywho, Luke beat Vader, he was stronger according to the movie, Lucas, and the books so I can't understand why everyone thinks Vader's far stronger than him when they have no evidence to back it up.

Luke IS a jedi. There's no debate really, Lucas calls him a Jedi and Yoda says he is a jedi once he confronts Vader. On that logic, Obi isn't either, they are both as close as you can get without being one. Now if Luke's such a weakling and has barely any training, how does he get so powerful without a master, and create his own Jedi academy? He learned a lot. No there's no cited proof that Luke demonstrates more power than Obi-Wan, but there's no cited proof that Obi demonstrates more power than Luke either. They both had the same powers, except Luke had Choke.

While I'll admit the movies overrule the novelization and Luke didn't reflect the lightning in the movie, you can't know what Vader was thinking in the movie but you can in the book so they don't contrast each other, making it full continuity. The only thing we are pretty sure he is thinking from the movies is "man, I need to learn when my wife gets pregnant!" and maybe "I hope the battery in this damn suit doesn't run out."

As for the Jabba thing, only a REALLY powerful Jedi could have mind-tricked him, like Yoda, and that's not even a guarantee. You wouldn't guess it, but he's strong minded. In either case it doesn't matter much because Obi doesn't mind trick anyone in TPM and every time he does after that it's on a worthless nobody so that doesn't make him better than Luke.

Me stubborn? Round forty....

lol... Let's leave this debate on the table and let the others pick at the scraps. Lucas has a habit of saying stuff about Luke and Anakin that just throw logical argument to the wind. There is a distinctive difference between a 25 year old padawan coming into being a knight (Who is Obi, no less!) and a 20 something year old farmboy turned half trained padawan. And Vader does have the edge on Luke in experience and power, if not speed and good lungs.

You just have to use logic here.. Lets analyze

Training:

Obi: Probably from the age of 4 or so, trained with one master and has learned a lot in 21 years of Jedi training.

Luke: Only a few days with Obi and then maybe a few weeks with Yoda before he ran off to bespin
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Obi takes this

Lightsaber Fights:

Obi: He managed to have a good fight with Maul and eventually managed to destroy him.

Luke: The only fight were we can really see his power is in ESB with him vs Vader, he gets owned there. He hides in ROTJ and eventually beats Vader when he's really angry
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Obi wins

Blaster fights/deflection


Obi: Managed to deflect the attack of a few droids and cut threw them with ease. Several times on several places.

Luke: Managed to throw himself in a really chaotic situation and manages to free everybody he wants there and blow up Jabba his ship. Because of the situation he was in thats actually impressive.
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I'm still going with Obi though

Actual Blaster fighting

Obi: No experience at all

Luke: Uses blasters for the longest time in all three movies, obviously not trusting enough in his own lightsaber skills to use a lightsaber only.
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Luke wins


So overall Obi takes this easly. and the Blaster fighting thing is actually another point i want to make here...

Luke used a blaster for a very long time, do you think Obi would have done that? Those imperial troopers Han and Chewie are going to knock out in ROTJ could have been easily killed by a even half trained Jedi. Obi sure as hell could do it, but why wasn't Luke there? Why did he let Han go? Answer he couldn't do it.

Luke wasn't trained enough

Every body shut up. I've made up my mind. Obi wins!

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Me stubborn? Round forty....

lol... Let's leave this debate on the table and let the others pick at the scraps. Lucas has a habit of saying stuff about Luke and Anakin that just throw logical argument to the wind. There is a distinctive difference between a 25 year old padawan coming into being a knight (Who is Obi, no less!) and a 20 something year old farmboy turned half trained padawan. And Vader does have the edge on Luke in experience and power, if not speed and good lungs.

alright, we'll leave this debate to others. I think we covered everything anyway. Stubborn people still know when to quit! lol