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Just done a forum search, and no mention of Simon of Cyrene... whom the Muslims believe was the man crucified in Jesus's place.... the story is as follows...

Jesus, hearing he is to be crucified, asks Simon of Cyrene, one of his many disciples, to impersonate him, be captured by the romans and put o trial while jesus makes his getaway... the deal being that once jesus is well away, the other disciples will stage an uprising and free Simon... Simon agrees... the uprising never happens, and Simon gets crucified... everyone thinks it's Jesus on the cross, so imagine their surprise when he seems to Rise From the Dead...

This story answers many questions about the new testament version of events... for example, if jesus is so famous and wanted by the authorities, why does Judas have to identify him... answer: jesus's face is not that well known... Simon looks similar, and judas's kiss is used to make sure the romans arrest the correct (ie wrong!) man...Why, when on the cross, does jesus shout "my lord, why have you forsaken me?" If Jesus expects to be crucified and rise from the dead, then his crucifixion is not a case of god forsaking him... if, however, poor Simon is nailed to a cross, vainly waiting for a rescue mission, the words make perfect sense.... and of course it solves that tricky one about rising from the dead....

Interesting...

It also puzzled me when Jesus said "My God why have you forsaken me."

I've never heard the story of the wrong man crucified though. It's a Muslim story??

Jesus said those words right before Death when he, at that moment took on every sin in the world! For that one moment he was a sinner!

I realize that, but wouldn't He of known. Why would He say THOSE words?

I think there is more to this story then beats the eye.Becaues something is missing from it.JM

beats the eye????

^ Haven't you ever beat your eye?

no, I aint into self inflicted harm

in the Koran it explicitlty states of Jesus, "some say he was crucified, and rose from death, but it is not so... another was killed in his place.."

The Gospel of john, however, written fifty years after in an attempt to appeal to the Greek and other mystics, has jesus say instead, simply, "It is ended..."

wouldn't the Koran profit with it to take down the story and claim Jesus as not being the son of a god? gives their story more chances to "lure" the christians to them

and as far as I know, Simon of Cyrene is someone passing by who was ordened to carry the cross
(Matthew 27:31-32 ; Mark 15:20-21 & Luke 23:26)

No, they consider jesus as a great prophet, and that he as the only one went to paradise when he was still alive and full blooded human

indeed, but by claiming he "cheated" with the crucifiction, some christians might get disappointed and switch over to the islam?

well that will mean you take the word of the koran over that of the bible, if that is the case your faith obviously dont lie with the bible so..........

The words "it is Finished" refer to the fact that the new covenant was started upon Jesus dying and taking on All sins in the world. When he cried Father why has thou forsaken me! That was the human part of Jesus talking to the Spirit at the exact moment he took on all of our sins in his human form. The new covenant being the total washing away of sis by the Blood of Jesus, as opposed tothe old law of having your sins pushed forward by the blood of an unblemished animal. I am really shocked, but not at all surprised by the number of people trying to discredit Jesus! He died for all of us! At least there is real proof He existed as opposed to a lot of myths most people would rather follow! As for me, I have had too man spiritual and physical expereinces from My Lord, not to mention supernatural happenings and prayers answered! I have to have proof before I believe anything May Jesus Bless all of you!

Originally posted by finti
well that will mean you take the word of the koran over that of the bible, if that is the case your faith obviously dont lie with the bible so..........
yeah, but in the end, those religions are so close intertwined that it can be probable that they switch over

Originally posted by vicki horvath
The words "it is Finished" refer to the fact that the new covenant was started upon Jesus dying and taking on All sins in the world. When he cried Father why has thou forsaken me! That was the human part of Jesus talking to the Spirit at the exact moment he took on all of our sins in his human form. The new covenant being the total washing away of sis by the Blood of Jesus, as opposed tothe old law of having your sins pushed forward by the blood of an unblemished animal. I am really shocked, but not at all surprised by the number of people trying to discredit Jesus! He died for all of us! At least there is real proof He existed as opposed to a lot of myths most people would rather follow! As for me, I have had too man spiritual and physical expereinces from My Lord, not to mention supernatural happenings and prayers answered! I have to have proof before I believe anything May Jesus Bless all of you!

Funnily enough, to the early church, the death of Jesus through crucifixion was simply a sign that people could believe what he said.... "The End is Nigh," he said... "if you don't believe me, then look: I'll say now I'll rise from the dead... if I'm not lying about that, you'll know I'm not lying about the other stuff..." The idea of Jesus "dying for our sins" dates to a couple of hundred years afterwards, when Christianity had to compete with other Mystery religions.... in most of those, the initiate had to undergo some sort of trial or ordeal... Christianity said, "join us... the ordeal was gone through by some other bloke... we're a lot less painful..."

Also in some mystery religions, converts were actually covered by the blood of an actual lamb. Real blood.

Ive read that it was because God left him as he took upon himself all the sins of man.

But wouldn't Jesus know that? Why would he ask God "why are you turning me away" kind of question? I've also learned the same as you, that God couldn't even look at Jesus because He was so full of the worlds sin.

Originally posted by debbiejo
But wouldn't Jesus know that? Why would he ask God "why are you turning me away" kind of question? I've also learned the same as you, that God couldn't even look at Jesus because He was so full of the worlds sin.
Dramatic effect?

Psalm 22. So, Jesus is quoting scripture when he says this...hmm.

thats what we always was thaught in christianity in school, and dont one of the elder of the Sanhedrin who witnesses the crusifixtion say " even now he quote the scripture" as a reply to those who said he was calling for Elijah................................... or was that form the movie Jesus Of Nazareth

Interesting point..I'll have to look it up.

Interesting theory, I like.

However, its doubful, because Islam had mixed up some facts about Christianity before.

Quran 19: 28
''O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.''

^^Muhammad confused Mary with Miriam, as Miriam was a sister of Aaron, no? So the Islamic story already has doubts.

Originally posted by yerssot
indeed, but by claiming he "cheated" with the crucifiction, some christians might get disappointed and switch over to the islam?
Here are some examples yers -

Quran 5:51
''O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.''

Quran 5:73
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Quran 9:30
''And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!''

Comment: Here we see that Islam does not admit Jesus as the son of god, or the Ezra for the Jews.
(im rather clueless on Judaism though, so i have no clue who Ezra is)

Quran 9:34
''O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom''

...and I cant be bothered to look for anymore...

Doesn't sound like the Muslims like Jews or Christians. How about Buddhists?

Actually I dont know ermm It doesnt say anything about Buddha in Quran or the Bible (i dont know about Torah, but i wouldnt think it mentioned Buddha - India was too far away in those times)

I think we go under the ''idol worshiper'' category, im not actually sure.

I dont think Christians Jews or Muslims get on with each other...between each other

not really... Mary is (obviously) the english translation, the original name for Mary would be Miriam too. So, both are named Miriam, so how do you know he confuses the one with the other? Especially if nothing is known about Miriam-Mary's family?


and about the Khoran:
barely any religion is a friend with the other, that most will know and accept but I mean that with taking down one with the biggest miracles/stories of the bible they could perhaps get some "weak sheep" to follow a new herd


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Interesting theory, I like.

However, its doubful, because Islam had mixed up some facts about Christianity before.

Quran 19: 28
''O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.''

^^Muhammad confused Mary with Miriam, as Miriam was a sister of Aaron, no? So the Islamic story already has doubts.


Here are some examples yers -

Quran 5:51
''O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.''

Quran 5:73
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Quran 9:30
''And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!''

Comment: Here we see that Islam does not admit Jesus as the son of god, or the Ezra for the Jews.
(im rather clueless on Judaism though, so i have no clue who Ezra is)

Quran 9:34
''O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom''

...and I cant be bothered to look for anymore...

Originally posted by yerssot
not really... Mary is (obviously) the english translation, the original name for Mary would be Miriam too. So, both are named Miriam, so how do you know he confuses the one with the other? Especially if nothing is known about Miriam-Mary's family?

Because the chapter 19 in the Koran is called and REfers to Mary the mother of Jesus - it states that clearly.

19: Mary.

Quran 19:27 Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

Quran 19:28
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

Quran 19:29
Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?

Quran 19:30
He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

Quran 19:31
And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

Quran19:32
And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

Quran 19:33
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

Quran 19:34
Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.


Originally posted by yerssot

and about the Khoran:
barely any religion is a friend with the other, that most will know and accept but I mean that with taking down one with the biggest miracles/stories of the bible they could perhaps get some "weak sheep" to follow a new herd

Yes, I was trying to make that exact point - Christians and Jews are non believers in Islam, and thus an enemy unless they convert.

Christians, Jews and Muslims dont like each other anyway, even though their religions are basically exactly the same, and they all in its basic principle preach tolerance.
Torah and Bible to not refer directly to Muslims as the enemy or the ''non believers'', however. I believe Quran was altered, for some reason.

I think Bible directly attacks Pegans, and idol worshipers....i think. Unsure about that.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Because the chapter 19 in the Koran is called and REfers to Mary the mother of Jesus - it states that clearly.

19: Mary.

Quran 19:27 Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

Quran 19:28
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

Quran 19:29
Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?

Quran 19:30
He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

Quran 19:31
And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

Quran19:32
And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

Quran 19:33
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

Quran 19:34
Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.




Yes, I was trying to make that exact point - Christians and Jews are non believers in Islam, and thus an enemy unless they convert.

Christians, Jews and Muslims dont like each other anyway, even though their religions are basically exactly the same, and they all in its basic principle preach tolerance.
Torah and Bible to not refer directly to Muslims as the enemy or the ''non believers'', however. I believe Quran was altered, for some reason.

I think Bible directly attacks Pegans, and idol worshipers....i think. Unsure about that.
it could still be that they give her both names and mess up a bit here and there, I don't think they care much if they got it right or not ... just as long as "they got the gist"


really? we do? we must be related

Originally posted by yerssot
it could still be that they give her both names and mess up a bit here and there, I don't think they care much if they got it right or not ... just as long as "they got the gist"

Well, If they messed up here and there its possible they messed up with the story too.

Originally posted by yerssot
really? we do? we must be related

Pardon?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Well, If they messed up here and there its possible they messed up with the story too.



Pardon?
from my pov, almost every story in any religious book is messed up to start with
that and it's all by hear-say so people change some stuff over the time too...


mommy?

Originally posted by yerssot
from my pov, almost every story in any religious book is messed up to start with
that and it's all by hear-say so people change some stuff over the time too...

Indeed. Holy books = means of control.


Originally posted by yerssot
mommy?

Yerssybaby

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Indeed. Holy books = means of control.




Yerssybaby
you sound like Marx there...


I have a booboo *shows lil ***** scraped elbow* cry


on a related on topic note... there were some documentaries on the tv a year or so ago explaining scientificly some of the miracles that are in the bible. The one about standing up from the dead was the most fun one: he got high on some local nut/plant and passed out on the cross

It's my understanding that this story is true, and as an act of repentance for his dead desciple, Jesus promised that every year from then on, he would deliver presents to all the children of the world on his own birthday.

he sure has let himself go ... worldhunger is still present and he fills himself up in heaven

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
However, its doubful, because Islam had mixed up some facts about Christianity before.

Quran 19: 28
''O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.''

^^Muhammad confused Mary with Miriam, as Miriam was a sister of Aaron, no? So the Islamic story already has doubts.

The Qur'an, as the later Revelation, confirms and fulfills the previous books as well as corrects those points the previous guardians allowed to go astray. Islam didn't mix up anything.

"Sister of Aaron" is a title referring to the tribe her people were of.