Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Where does evil come from?

I went to sunday school, and there were talking about evil as their topic. Found it very interesting.


They say evil comes from Free will.

What I mean is the god created us, and he gave us free will.

Since he gave us free will, some of us made some really bad choices which made evil.

The only way god could make evil go away is by giving up our free will. Then we would not be able to really love god, or anything else because love is a choice. Making someone do it is not love.

What do you think?

Makes sense to me...Free Will is free to do what ever it wants.

Sure, it sort of makes sense....

Except that, although, yes, God gave us free will, God did not in turn create evil. We did. By eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Hence, original sin.

evil comes from the devil- he started all this crap called sin; and he tries to influence our free will to do bad things- i dont think free will is bad because if we didn't have it we would be robots and wouldn't have any real "life" to choose to do good or bad

If God could not forsee that free will would bring about evil, He is not omniscient. If God can not elimminate evil without taking away free will, He is not omnipotent. In this sense, it would seem that God is very limited.

You said you were Buddhist ^ Does that mean that you don't believe in anything except spirit? And if you do, couldn't that spirit be all connected to lets say a "Grand Consciousness?"

Originally posted by debbiejo
You said you were Buddhist ^ Does that mean that you don't believe in anything except spirit? And if you do, couldn't that spirit be all connected to lets say a "Grand Consciousness?"

Yes, I am Buddhist. No, I do not believe in a transmaterial soul or spirit.

I believe that we may be influnced to do things, but mainly we bring it upon ourselves.

Originally posted by vaya_the_elf
Where does evil come from?

It springs from three main roots - Greed, hatred, and delusion.

I'm a Wiccan and my people belive that evil is based on free will but it was not given it was created.See God had a plan for this world to saport life and he being the ruler. He created his 2 ideal people to start his world.they were ment to do one thing and that was not to eat the forbidden fruit and the devil lead eve into temptation SHE decided to eat the fruit and god didnt alow her to. she gave herself the free will and god did not give it to her she created it from temptation so it was started by eve and not god that is why she and adam were punished. if god is against sin he is a sinner himself because he handed us free will wich was handing us sin itself.

Evil comes from human nature, apathy.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It springs from three main roots - Greed, hatred, and delusion.

Oh, snap! Don't forget ignorance, though...

Although, I'm not sure I would agree to 'delusion' as a root...as a delusion can be benign, whereas greed and hatred are always malignant.

Evil is a joke in the eyes of the wise...

Evil, was never created, humanity always had free will, so they always have the opportunity to commit acts that would condemn them as evil, but evil is only a concept that humanity hold to keep its race that is continuously straying together, so I conclude that there is no evil just free will.

Isnt it already kinda proven that as long as god exists, man can not have free will, only if he does not exist can man have free will.

anyway, most things we judge are reletive to something else, if there was no evil and everyone was good, then no one would be considered good, similarly if everyone was evil than no one would be considered evil.{this is neither justification, nor speculation, merely a fact}

in my eyes, if god exists then he is the one who created evil, if he doesnt then well i suppose its the darkness in human hearts that we are born with and is in our nature.

That's true, if everyone was good, then no one would know what good was because there is nothing to compare it with...So good and evil comes from man. I do think that depending on what you think God is, would infact still be relevant to Him existing.

Yes.. very true... Evil and Good, or Rich and Poor can only exist if there is a comparison... We shouldn't blame God for anything because what we know now is just by mere assumption, and might not be true after all... as this is just another assumption where misunderstanding takes place quite often...

The devil!jm

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
Oh, snap! Don't forget ignorance, though...

Although, I'm not sure I would agree to 'delusion' as a root...as a delusion can be benign, whereas greed and hatred are always malignant. I kinda meant ignorance by delusion. Delusion as in not seeing the truth - I took that straight from the buddhist Sutra and didnt explain what I meant. Apologies.

Anyway, yeah - ignorance, hate and greed.

Evil is a result of people's desires, which (directly or indirectly) results in the suffering of others.

Ignorance can't directly be evil, for if someone is not aware of the consequences of their actions they are not evil themselves - just unknowingly causing suffering.

Ignorance leads to hate, fear and suffering. One of the biggest problems in the world today come from ignorance.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Ignorance leads to hate, fear and suffering. One of the biggest problems in the world today come from ignorance.

Ignorance can be a problem. That's why books were invented.

I read this article once which said that people like criminals and other basically evil people have what psychologists call an evil gene which is what leads them to do the horrible stuff that they do.
So they're born with it.

that's just people trying to come up with some lame excuse for what they think they can't control (IE ADD, ADHD, and the vast majority of psychological issues). I'm not saying that these conditions don't exist i'm just saying that most people just use them to try to give an excuse for something they think they can't control.
Example, A child who does not like school, doesn't like the subjects in it, but likes sports, will not sit still in a classroom. he'd rather being outside playing sports. They call this ADD, because he can't sit still. When in fact its just him wanting to play sports.
If criminals have a gene that make them do such things then we truly can't persecute them. That'd be unfair. Like the gay community they were then born with it and its unfair and cruel of society to condemn them for it.
I agree with the original post and most after that. Evil is created by free will. The free will that God gave us so that we can truly understand love and truly love each other and him.

It doesn't matter who you are. Whether your a priest, Mother Mary, Billy Joe Bob, a baby, a drunk, a gay, a pastor...the fact is EVIL COMES FROM US...AND ONLY US..


I'm glad animals aren't evil...Maybe we should treat them better. Infact animals are probably too good FOR US..Since we are the evil ones.

Originally posted by debbiejo


Sad, but true

It's about self control. What part of us we decide to follow and listen to. It depends on what we choose.

Originally posted by debbiejo
It doesn't matter who you are. Whether your a priest, Mother Mary, Billy Joe Bob, a baby, a drunk, a gay, a pastor...the fact is EVIL COMES FROM US...AND ONLY US..


I'm glad animals aren't evil...Maybe we should treat them better. Infact animals are probably too good FOR US..Since we are the evil ones.

From another point of view, cannibals hunt other humans for food, and categorized mostly by the community as evil... If the same judgement was implied to the animals, are they also not evil? of course both sides have the same reason, food... but does that eliminates the possibility of one being evil??

actually some animals are evil, gorillas for example kill spider monkeys and spider monkey babies and take special sadistic pleasure in it, they dont have to ofcourse but they eat em too, n they get kinda crazy when they wanna kill spider monkeys and start insanely jumpin around to tell the whole group to hunt spider monkeys, gorillas apes and chimpanzees actually rape female chimpanzees too when they r frustrated and sometimes kill em if the female puts up too much resistance. rhinos kill other rhinos who are not part of the group for females, food, and water{i got all this from the discovery channel}

"Evil" is merely a very subjective idea, born from fear of the unknown.

Evil is born of fear!! Fear causes you to do evil things...That's the bottom line.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually some animals are evil, gorillas for example kill spider monkeys and spider monkey babies and take special sadistic pleasure in it, they dont have to ofcourse but they eat em too, n they get kinda crazy when they wanna kill spider monkeys and start insanely jumpin around to tell the whole group to hunt spider monkeys, gorillas apes and chimpanzees actually rape female chimpanzees too when they r frustrated and sometimes kill em if the female puts up too much resistance.

You are either mistaken or amazingly misinformed. No apes kill spider monkeys because there are no apes in South America, and spider monkeys are "new world" primates and only live in South America. Gorillas do not kill or rape (unless they have psychologically snapped or are killing something that is threatening them). Gorillas are in fact exceedingly peaceful, more so than even gibbons or orangutans.

Chimps do rape and kill, as do humans and bottle-nosed dolphins. Notice the correlation there? The 3 of the supposedly most intelligent inhabitants on earth are the most likely to kill or rape for pleasure or out of anger or amusement.


QUOTE=3589753]Originally posted by leonheartmm
rhinos kill other rhinos who are not part of the group for females, food, and water{i got all this from the discovery channel}

This is called defense of territory and interspecies competition, it has nothing to do with malevolence or being evil.

Either the discovery channel is running some really misinforming crappy shows or you are not paying attention.

First of all to understand evil you have to forget about the god and the devil part, i could make a post the size of kentucky about that but thats besides the point here it has nothing to do with it.

Evil is basicly one of other primal instincts, and by god the best thing that ever happened to us. Along with everything good, as said before without evil there can be no good... So to quote Satan in Southpark

"Without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil somehow"

He's right when he says that, evil and good are basicly the same thing. Based from different perspectives and idea's. Most people today will say Hitler is bad, others will say he was the best. During his life many people thought he was doing good things, later on that oppinion changed and imo thats a good thing but others will disagree.

Most people that can actually think will say that the differences between races does not make one superior above the other, yet there are still people that say it does. Who is wrong and who is right? Biologicly speaking there are differences between races, but it hardly makes one better in something then another. Still things can be said that would challange such an oppinion, which is right which is wrong? All just an oppinion.

Evil itself is an oppinion. Evil was created when the first humam formed an oppinion that another did not agree with. Thats evil basicly a difference of oppinions

Originally posted by Fishy
Biologicly speaking there are differences between races, but it hardly makes one better in something then another. Still things can be said that would challange such an oppinion, which is right which is wrong? All just an oppinion.

Race is a sociological construct with no basis in genetics. Moreover, there is more physiological diversity among members of a single "race" than there is between members of separate "races".

Actually there are biological differences in races... Denying such things is foolish, it doesn't make one race better then the other however but aying there are no differences no matter how small is just foolish and false.

Evil is as idea that rests on Morality, Altriusm, Empathy, and
Conscience, along with a human aelf-awareness that enables
us to see these things as ideas andideals and not just forced
instincts.

Without a feeling of empathy or morality, or any of the other
values, no act would ever be considered "evil".

Similarly, one must be aware of one-self as a human being
with these values, in order to judge acts as evil, as opposed
to react to them.

Animals display and altruism as well, but it is doubtful that
they have the awareness of these displays as anything but
instincts, and not higher guiding values. Thus while they may
display pity over a randomly killed family member, they
probably don't judge the killer as "evil".

Originally posted by King Burger
Thus while they may
display pity over a randomly killed family member, they
probably don't judge the killer as "evil".

You just wouldn't know would ya??

Thus the word "probably".


Besides, very often when you judge something as "Evil", you
may also want to end it. And I don't see animals going out
on missions to eradicate the "evils" that have befallen them
of their family members.

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually there are biological differences in races... Denying such things is foolish, it doesn't make one race better then the other however but aying there are no differences no matter how small is just foolish and false.

Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait, or gene distinguishes all members of a so-called race from all members of another so-called race.

Human subspecies do not exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans have not been around long enough, nor have populations been isolated enough, to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface differences, we are among the most similar of all species.

Skin color is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently of one another. The genes for skin color have nothing to do with the genes for hair texture, eye shape, blood type, etc.

Most variation is within, not between "races". Of the small amount of total human genetic variation, 85% exists within any local population, be they Italians, Kurds, Koreans, or Cherokees. Two random Koreans are likely to be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian.

Originally posted by King Burger
Thus the word "probably".


Besides, very often when you judge something as "Evil", you
may also want to end it. And I don't see animals going out
on missions to eradicate the "evils" that have befallen them
of their family members.



Good thing too..Or they would have a holy jihad!



Besides there ARE only 2 emotions...

Fear and Love...All others are derived from these.

What about indifference? That does not derive from love or hate - and its an emotion.

I always thought of it as a lack of. I think I agree with Milla there, but also the other guy.

Because while indifference IS an emotion technically, it's not thought of one because it's not as expressive. People are extremely unexpressive when they're indifferent and expression plays a pivotal role in what constitutes an emotion.

When someone's afraid, you know it. When they're in love, you know it. When they're indifferent? Not really.

-AC

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What about indifference? That does not derive from love or hate - and its an emotion.

Indifference is really someone not participating in the live of another or others, I think and so they are indifferent. Why would someone chose to not participate?

To me it would fall into the fear catagory...they have a fear or hate, or feel they're above this or that or someone, which at the root is fearful reactions....You think??

Originally posted by debbiejo
Besides there ARE only 2 emotions...

Fear and Love...All others are derived from these.


Are you sure Debbie?

I can't cassify "empathy" and "consience" as love.

Love, or atleast the common type excluding this divinely-inspired
"unconditional love", is a emotion that needs a certain degree of
familiarity to happen.

It's difficult to love a statistic, or a name, or even just a face.

Empathy however is possible in most situations. One can "feel
for another's sufferinf", even if that other is only a face in a
photograph.

Take the famous (or infamous" "Napalm Girl" photograph from
the Vietnam War. No one knew who the girl was, or even her
name, but people felt pity for her. And many Americans felt pain
in their conscience over their nations' responsibility. But none
knew her enough to feel love for her.


Also take the sense of morality, and moral outrage. If I beilieve
that pornography is immoral and a danger to a society's well-being,
any moral outrage I feel over the spread of porn cannot be put
down to love of man, or hatred of the pornographer. there is
another value or ideal at work here.

Originally posted by King Burger
Are you sure Debbie?

I can't cassify "empathy" and "consience" as love.

Love, or atleast the common type excluding this divinely-inspired
"unconditional love", is a emotion that needs a certain degree of
familiarity to happen.

It's difficult to love a statistic, or a name, or even just a face.

Empathy however is possible in most situations. One can "feel
for another's sufferinf", even if that other is only a face in a
photograph.

Take the famous (or infamous" "Napalm Girl" photograph from
the Vietnam War. No one knew who the girl was, or even her
name, but people felt pity for her. And many Americans felt pain
in their conscience over their nations' responsibility. But none
knew her enough to feel love for her.


Also take the sense of morality, and moral outrage. If I beilieve
that pornography is immoral and a danger to a society's well-being,
any moral outrage I feel over the spread of porn cannot be put
down to love of man, or hatred of the pornographer. there is
another value or ideal at work here.

Oh empathy is love..it's feeling someone else's pain, it's caring. it's being involved on some level...On the other hand pornography defiantly is out of fear...It's a disregard of human feelings, it's an indifference to the harm you might be inflicting, it could be a hate for yourself or for your own life...which could be a fear that you were never excepted for what you are and so you exploit others....

Well, I guess you are using "love" in a wider sense of
the word.

I am using it to denote a more specific, indentifiable
(to the self) feeling. Not necessarily just towards the
opposite sex, but any just directed feeling of affection
and longing.


About pornography, I was refering to the sense of
moral outrage that one would feel towards it. That
is a feeling not necessarily based on love or hate.

Originally posted by King Burger
Well, I guess you are using "love" in a wider sense of
the word.

I am using it to denote a more specific, indentifiable
(to the self) feeling. Not necessarily just towards the
opposite sex, but any just directed feeling of affection
and longing.


About pornography, I was refering to the sense of
moral outrage that one would feel towards it. That
is a feeling not necessarily based on love or hate.

The sense of moral outrage is because of fear..Because they are afraid that it would corrupt the minds and lives of others, that it would effect their husband and significant others, that it would destroy communities, that it would lead to the degradation of women. Stuff like that..I don't condone it myself, but it is, in my opinion based on fear..which comes out as hate and outrage..and anger.

Originally posted by King Burger
Well, I guess you are using "love" in a wider sense of
the word.

There's only 3 type of love, eros, philos and agape.

Empathy falls in the category of agape...

lil and AC, you guys match....how cute is that? Martha Stewart would be proud.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What about indifference? That does not derive from love or hate - and its an emotion.

That's basically what I said in my first post. Apathy is the root of evil. Not caring about good or bad, but simply acting out of a nothingness.

What's worst acting out nothingness, or acting on your feelings?

If you're asking me that, then you know the answer. Good or evil, there is a limit to what you can stomach. When you act out of apathy, there is no limit to what you can do. If you feel no pain, it's easier to pretend that other are just as capable of feeling the same way.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
That's basically what I said in my first post. Apathy is the root of evil. Not caring about good or bad, but simply acting out of a nothingness.
A quote comes to mind here: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
That's basically what I said in my first post. Apathy is the root of evil. Not caring about good or bad, but simply acting out of a nothingness.

I don't think so..

To not know good or evil means you have never understood what society wants you to do and what society does not want you to do...

To understand evil you must first understand what it really is?

What is evil in its most primal form? Can one truly say they are evil?

Everything we humans do is based on a selfish need or desire, the definition of evil is often said as doing something only for yourself, but everything we do is only for us, so his can not be it. Perhaps some help others while trying to help themselves and some do not, but its hardly anything that can be defined as evil...

To be evil you have to do things that society looks down upon, like cold blooded murder, rape, robbery... But what makes those things evil? In our society those things are evil because our society is based on religious laws that say we should all try to live together and help each other not hurt each other. Those things are evil, because that is what we have learned.

However what if we never learned that? What if we would have learned that killing people is a good that raping 4 year old girls helps keep the population steady or whatever.... Would those acts have been evil? Now your first instinct would probably be to say yes, but forget about that for a second. Think then answer, it would not be evil because we would never have learned that it was. There is nothing in our minds telling us something like that is evil or not.

When Hitler send all those Jews to die he thought he was doing the right thing, he was helping the world he was taking revenge for Jesus. When the Romans conquered country after country they thought they were doing the right thing they were spreading democracy, they were doing what they should have done.

When the barbarians destroyed Rome no matter how many people died they did the right thing, because what they did destroyed the brutal evil conquerers.

When Bush invaded Iraq many thought he was doing the right justified thing and many others agree, is he evil or he is a saint because of it?Opinions differ on it, history will eventually tell us more about it, but so far he is both good and evil in different minds.

Osama Bin Laden, one example i have always loved in discussions like this, i hope most people here think that what he did was a cruel sick thing to do. But he sure as hell didn't think so, he thought he was punishing the Americans and he was right to do so. That was his opinion and thousands of people supported him in that opinion who was right who was wrong? Can you honestly tell me that he is evil when the western world is not?

We are both evil we are both good, it all matters on how you look at it. Another fine example is communism, in essence the greatest idea ever. Didn't work, does that make it evil? or does that make it good? And what about the people that practiced it? Evil or good?

We are all evil and all good, we are what people think of us. When an American soldier fights against a Iraqi terrorist he thinks he is doing the right thing. But when an Iraqi freedom fighter is fighting against the brutal savage conquering Americans he thinks he is doing the right thing.

None of them are evil, none of them are wrong or right. Its all the same thing only from difference of opinions. Evil does not excist neither does good. Not in the way we are talking about it here. It all just matters on how you look at it.

Originally posted by Fishy
I don't think so..


To understand evil you must first understand what it really is?



Good and evil are subjective, man made terms. They are little more than theory. Apathy is a fact. Reality is understanding that.

A Question worthy of asking I do believe that many have been led astray by this topic not once in the Bible does it mention the words free will or anything to state that we do have free will. Many believe that Satan made evil when he sinned, however this is not the case He Merely brought Evil into existence he did don't create it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things.

As you can see God create Evil not man not Satan, but God. Why Would God do such a thing I thought God was good? God is good and sometimes good things happen to good people. Suffering Is Good, in its limits of course, for instance 9/11 millions of people were looking for answers that day why Lord, Why they cried and many talked to God that day who either never have, haven't for a while or do constantly. Either way everything is done for a Reason and people flocked back to God when disaster struck so sometimes thats what it takes. If anyone has any comments or question feel free to reply to this.

^ Good and evil do not exist in the true nature of reality. Good and evil are abstractions used to express the true nature of God, or the mystic law. So, yes, God is both good and evil, however, together good and evil become something indescribable.

Originally posted by peterKSL
Evil is a joke in the eyes of the wise...

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

It's the only thing that makes it all make sense.

Originally posted by Mindship
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

It's the only thing that makes it all make sense.


Heh.

God I would say because it comes from us eating the fruit which was made thus placed by him to be used by us. Also if you wish to look to Greek... Legend... we learn that it is our fault that we opened Pandora's Box but since Zues put it there it is just as much his fault as ours

God and Evil is in the eye's of man, caterogizing something as absolute positive (A action that gives) to negative (A action that takes away) is foolish because sometimes it falls into both, Take a wolf it kills which is a negative reaction (because it's prey loses it's life), and feeds of it's flesh which is a positive reaction ( The flesh gives life) there fore that kill was first negative then positive. Good and evil is a perspective it isn't organized like positive and negative, for instance killing may be regarded as evil but as I just explained it can changed.

Originally posted by vaya_the_elf
Where does evil come from?

I went to sunday school, and there were talking about evil as their topic. Found it very interesting.


They say evil comes from Free will.

What I mean is the god created us, and he gave us free will.

Since he gave us free will, some of us made some really bad choices which made evil.

The only way god could make evil go away is by giving up our free will. Then we would not be able to really love god, or anything else because love is a choice. Making someone do it is not love.

What do you think? true, but how can you define 'evil'? Things are only wrong and 'evil' when someone says they are.

That might of been a bit off-topic, sorry

Originally posted by lord xyz
true, but how can you define 'evil'? Things are only wrong and 'evil' when someone says they are.

That might of been a bit off-topic, sorry

Like I said, Evil is in the eye's of men.

I don't think humans can be evil.

Originally posted by BlackC@
I don't think humans can be evil.

LOVE is not a choice.

What makes you think that ?

You don't choose who to fall in love with, you don't choose who you are even attracted to...in fact when you do fall in love, it happens on its own, independent of your choice.

And on point....i define "evil" as the desire to hurt another person.

thats it

Evil is a point of view.A person who is doing evil can think they are really doing good.Like I said,it is a point of view.The guy can be evil but think he's good.

being evil is the abscence of love, is it not?

Originally posted by lord xyz
being evil is the abscence of love, is it not? No,for example,most evil people LOVE power and themselves.

I didn't read all the pages so I don't know if someone already brought this up or not.

But evil comes from good!!!

Without good there is no evil, without evil there is no good. without dark there is no ligght, without light there is no dark. You can test this theory out all you want and it will NEVER fail.


Whoa, some of those theories. Didn't Pandora open the box? He opened it and out came life, he wated more life so he opened it again but out came death right? Deathn isn't evil, death is good, without death there is no life yadda yadda yadda.

God may have put the tree there for animals, not everything is made for humans. An animal is not the property of a human just like women are not the property of men and blacks not of whites. That was the effect of a female philosophers quote from back in WWII.
Anyway. Oh yeah. Evil can't be bad if it is to hurt someone. To bring death will put someone in some sort of pain, mental mainly (Probably). And death must happen.

well some say that evil comes from god.

but i have 2 ideas myself on where it comes from.
#1.

"This is the Book of the Dead.
Legend has it, that it was written by
the dark ones: NECRONOMICON EX MORTIS
Roughly translated...The Book of the Dead.
To trace the origin of the Book, we
must go back...back...to a day when
spirits ruled the earth.

When the seas ran red with blood.
It was this blood that was used to ink
the book.
the Book was scripted in a strange hieroglyphic.
The Book of the Dead was last seen
in 1300 A.D."

and #2
"everybody poops, potty training for the toddler"

Originally posted by vaya_the_elf
Where does evil come from?

The human mind. Human beings attach the value of evil to things when they perceive them. So evil is always relative to the person assigning the value. A Christian would say that God is the absolute frame of reference, and that whatever God deems is evil is evil. Socrates had a fieldday with a similar concept millennia ago.



If you accept the idea of causation, there is no free will. If you believe that God is the First Mover and the First Cause, then he created everything via his own machinations, including the ability to do evil. If you believe that God did not create evil, you need to read the scripture closer, and reevaluate your premise.

And of course, if God is not the First Mover, he's not really God in the strictest sense; just a more powerful entity also playing to the strings of... whatever.

But while I have the floor, I'd like to point out that even if we can attack causation itself (By citing that the thing that neccessitates actions cannot be observed), every explanation in human history presupposes causation. So obviously, if we intend to make an explanation, causation will be involved. If God is in the equation, God is the First Mover, and thus made all things which are subject to his will/whim. Therefore, evil comes from God. You cannot divorce him from the responsibility of his actions since he is not caused by anything, nor are his actions. If they are, he is not God.



Going with the argument that God made man with free will, how do we define free will? How can we prove that it exists? When you act on something, you're acting on a foundation of past experience, emotions, and knowledge. A multitude of factors you couldn't compute in a lifetime existed up to and during the point of decision... how can you say that you are uncoerced or uninfluenced in -any- decision? I don't see how it works that way. Saying that the "will" is free and somehow above the basic assumption of causation that we apply to the physical world is giving it a definition, but not being able to fulfil that definition via knowledge of the thing in the real world.



I paid $2.85 for gas today when I could have paid $2.84 across the street. Was that an evil choice? Is freedom somehow leading to evil? So then in this case, conformity and lack of choice would be good, since one could not "stray" from the righteous. Or is it more than just free will? Is it lack of knowledge? Arrogance? What is it that constitutes making an evil action against another living thing? If I had to sum it up, I'd say it was lack of empathy, since empathy tends to promote feelings of respect and kindness for other beings. Perhaps this is why we smash flies, but couldn't imagine smashing a gorilla or cat for entertainment. Well, most of us.



I disagree that love is a choice. Love itself is gutteral, primal, and unpredictable. You don't look at Person X or Person Y and go "I will love this person"; there's no real choice involved. That person just happens to spark something in you, and those strong feelings of attachment (In the positive sense) you call love. You cannot choose to alter their nature to fit your own likes, and you can't change your likes so that they fit them. That being said, you have no control over the actual attachment. Likewise, when you hate someone, it's the same attachment, but in a negative sense. You cannot really stop hating someone for who they are or what they're doing either.

Really, what it bottoms down to is that God, assuming there is free will, created it with everything else and is responsible for it since he's the only one in the universe free of causation. Personally, I don't think there's any grounds to assume there's free will. Causation, for all its faults, is far more plausible, even if impossible to determine as absolutely true.

Evil comes from our view of what is different then ourselves...It's always the "Others", and not us........We have labeled it evil, heretical or satanic just as it has always been.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Evil comes from our view of what is different then ourselves...It's always the "Others", and not us........We have labeled it evil, heretical or satanic just as it has always been.

I disagree with this. Wearing a rubberband on your left thumb is different. I don't consider that "evil" because it is different. The word doesn't fit the problem.

People always label things/people evil that aren't necessarily evil though....It's just a term.......

It's subjective again........I hate that word.

Religious people think that everyone is evil.

Originally posted by debbiejo
People always label things/people evil that aren't necessarily evil though....It's just a term.......

It's subjective again........I hate that word.

People label things stupid that aren't stupid, or funny that isn't funny. Really, what people label evil isn't the issue simply because of "difference". Although it is true that things perceived as different are more likely to be considered evil in the case of ignorance, different and evil are not swappable.

Originally posted by lord xyz
being evil is the abscence of love, is it not? I believe so.....at least to some part.......cause you have to love yourself........and if you are doing things just too prove something to another, then you are not loving yourself.............and to me that is the greatest sin.....not being true to ones own self.......

There is no evil.

Well actually I believe there are only really 2 main emotions, love and fear, all others stem from them....

Polarities.

Originally posted by Dwarfdude
Sure, it sort of makes sense....

Except that, although, yes, God gave us free will, God did not in turn create evil. We did. By eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Hence, original sin.

Actually, it was a talking snake with legs that caused evil.

All things can be viewed as good or evil. With out humans around there would be no such thing as evil or good. Therefore, we can up with evil and we create evil.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All things can be viewed as good or evil. With out humans around there would be no such thing as evil or good. Therefore, we can up with evil and we create evil.


I don't think we create it. I honestly think that good and evil DO exist regardless of our intepretations.

I beleive that the basis of all evil are these two components:

Hate and Sadism....I think this springs everything else...evil in my opinion is Purely the desire to hurt another person. That simple.

Here are some quotes relevant to this topic

Not sure where this came from: The Sixth Patriarch while talking to the elder Wei Ming said: "Perhaps you should concentrate your thoughts for a moment and avoid thinking in terms of good and evil."

Shakespeare: "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

Allan Bullock: ... evil is a form of incompetence.

Adolf Hitler: Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong.
So hitler was evil because he did not succeed

Evil comes from your dirty laundry.baby

Evil is a point of view. What one person considers evil, another may not. Hence the crusades. Muslims viewed christians as evil because they did not follow the Islam faith; Christians viewed the Muslims evil for similar reasons.

Evil is in the mind of the beholder I suppose.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Evil is in the mind of the beholder I suppose.

Evil, just like good does not exist beyond the relationship of people.

The Evil Shop.

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrh

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Evil, just like good does not exist beyond the relationship of people.
So why do we spend time discussing it then?

IMO, what may be seen as evil may be relative, but the motivation behind evil is likely universal.

In a nutshell: Evil is ultimate selfishness, choices made against the backdrop of Death Terror which exists in the pit of every psyche. What you feel you want others to feel, with glee. It is not revenge (though revenge may be part of it); it is extreme overcompensation for perceived disempowerment.

balloon

Id like to pop that balloon

I STRONGLY disagree. Any emotion can hadlyt be lumped to one singular cause.

Imo Hitler was pretty evil, but he came to power bacause he did a lot of great things for Germany. He certainly did not percieve himself as disempowered. Evil is so relative anyway, I find its sources to be relative as well.

Originally posted by Alliance
So why do we spend time discussing it then? You sure do ask a lot of questions......Mr biologist.........


Though one needs to remember to be TRUE TO THEMSELVES..... yep.

Originally posted by debbiejo
You sure do ask a lot of questions......Mr biologist.........
OH DARN!

Originally posted by Alliance
Id like to pop that balloon

I STRONGLY disagree. Any emotion can hadlyt be lumped to one singular cause.

Imo Hitler was pretty evil, but he came to power bacause he did a lot of great things for Germany. He certainly did not percieve himself as disempowered. Evil is so relative anyway, I find its sources to be relative as well.

Death Terror is the fundamental emotion that drives every living thing to do what it does: every action, every breath, every thought. I would even suggest that your strong disagreement is but one more defense mechanism toward empowerment against it, one of several DMs we all have, which, fortunately, are in place to protect us. Much of this takes place in the deepest recesses of our unconscious, and the motivations which bubble up into our consciousness are but the filtered-down versions of DT.

Yes, I realize that many, more biologically-oriented individuals scoff at this. Unfortunately, IMO, that is a by-product of their strictly empirical orientation.

Regarding Hitler: you don't know how he perceived himself, you were not there in his head. And yes, evil people can accomplish great things along the way to their greater goal. Hitler accrued tremendous, godlike power over the lives of so many others. In fact, one of the easiest means of overcoming one's sense of mortality (however consciously/unconsciously perceived) is to dish out death and destruction to others, which Adolf did in spades.

Originally posted by Mindship
Death Terror is the fundamental emotion that drives every living thing to do what it does: every action, every breath, every thought. I would even suggest that your strong disagreement is but one more defense mechanism toward empowerment against it, one of several DMs we all have, which, fortunately, are in place to protect us. No more than you're rebuttal then iyo.
Originally posted by Mindship
Much of this takes place in the deepest recesses of our unconscious, and the motivations which bubble up into our consciousness are but the filtered-down versions of DT.
How does this relate to evil at all?
Originally posted by Mindship
Yes, I realize that many, more biologically-oriented individuals scoff at this. Unfortunately, IMO, that is a by-product of their strictly empirical orientation. I don't know...there is something about fact that is well...so much more concrete/defendable
Originally posted by Mindship
Regarding Hitler: you don't know how he perceived himself, you were not there in his head. And yes, evil people can accomplish great things along the way to their greater goal. Hitler accrued tremendous, godlike power over the lives of so many others. In fact, one of the easiest means of overcoming one's sense of mortality (however consciously/unconsciously perceived) is to dish out death and destruction to others, which Adolf did in spades.
I don't know where you thought I was referencing Hitler's opinion, but I wasn't. I was merely stating my own. You said that evil is rooted in DT through "overcompensation for percieved disempowerment." I don't understand how your rebutall defends your argument. Hitler likely did not percieve himself in a state of disempowerment. There are likely sources that support my opinion.

Right off the bat waht are you defining as the greatest good and the greatest evil?

Originally posted by Alliance
Right off the bat waht are you defining as the greatest good and the greatest evil?

I'm not defining; I'm leaving it open.

can we even say greatest good and evil?

Originally posted by Alliance
can we even say greatest good and evil?


Yes. It is not absolute, but it is relative.

but its locally absolute, so does it have any social relevance?

Originally posted by Alliance
but its locally absolute, so does it have any social relevance?

Social relevance is all it has. Also, I don't see how it is locally absolute. I do believe there is an absolute truth, but it is beyond our understanding. Therefore, any absolute truth is not absolute as far as we are concerned.

I'm saying that personally, you have an opinon about what is more "good" or "evil", but these decisions hardly have global applications.

Originally posted by Alliance
I'm saying that personally, you have an opinon about what is more "good" or "evil", but these decisions hardly have global applications.

Oh, Personally? I see, I thought...

Personally, I judge good and evil by rather it makes me happy, and I keep a long term perspective on this. In other words, sort term suffering is okay because of possible happiness down the road.

Originally posted by Alliance
1. No more than you're rebuttal then iyo.

2a. How does this relate to evil at all?
2b. I don't know...there is something about fact that is well...so much more concrete/defendable

3a. I don't know where you thought I was referencing Hitler's opinion, but I wasn't. I was merely stating my own.
3b. You said that evil is rooted in DT through "overcompensation for percieved disempowerment." I don't understand how your rebutall defends your argument. Hitler likely did not percieve himself in a state of disempowerment. There are likely sources that support my opinion.

1. Absolutely. DT drives everything a living thing does (actually, there is another side to this coin, but that would bring in "God," and I think we have enough to chew on here).

2a.
2b. Not all facts are empirical, otherwise we would have to agree our conversation has no meaning, since there is no empirical evidence for the meaning of our sentences. Ultimately, a purely empirical POV contradicts itself (it is not science, it is scientism, whose edict is essentially, "only empirical evidence counts".

3a. Yes, you were. I merely asked, how do you know this?

3b. The whole "Fuehrer" personality is a grossly exaggerated and distorted conception of masculinity as Hitler conceives it. Undoubtedly he would like to be such a person in reality and believes that he actually is that person - but he deceives himself. This personality shows all the ear-marks of a reaction formation which has been created unconsciously as a compensation and cover-up for deeplying tendencies which he despises. This mechanism is very frequently found in hysterics and always serves the purpose of denying the true self by creating an image which is diametrically opposite and then identifying with the image.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:NyNjhjt_PRsJ:www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/text/oss-profile-04-06.html+Hitler+insecure+compensation&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

I don't find that site credible....who wrote that?

Originally posted by Alliance
I don't find that site credible....who wrote that?

I believe it was Konrad Heiden, a journalist/historian during the Nazi era and most famous for his Hitler biographies.

I believe...it was Kermit the Nazi Frog.

thats easy... me

really?

Der schlechte Frosch!*




































*The evil frog!

Originally posted by vaya_the_elf
Where does evil come from?

I went to sunday school, and there were talking about evil as their topic. Found it very interesting.


They say evil comes from Free will.

What I mean is the god created us, and he gave us free will.

Since he gave us free will, some of us made some really bad choices which made evil.

The only way god could make evil go away is by giving up our free will. Then we would not be able to really love god, or anything else because love is a choice. Making someone do it is not love.

What do you think?

Since you asked,

"Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting, who knowing the righteous judgement of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

Romans 1:28,32

We have been given the free will to choose. The problem is, we choose to do evil and therefore will suffer the consequences of that decision.

And having another faith would indicate evil?

Evil is good. You can't have good without evil so therefore evil is necessary. Without evil their would be no good, so evil is good.

Ass is good. Without ass none of you would be hear today, so therefore ass is good.

So in conclusion, Evil is good and Ass is good and if you get yourself a piece of Evil Ass...woooooooo!!!!!!!!

In Judaism and Christianity, evil refers to disobedience to God

ive always wondered this question. i mean its led to almost the undoing of the human race time and time again, its caused the slaughter of millions upon million of humans and animals, its caused millions of acres to be reduced to rubble (rainforests and the like). as much good as its done i think moneys caused double that in problems

That and religion.

31

yea i agree. this probably wont be a long lasting topic because the answer is easy. but yea those two really are the cause of soo much in the world

that and poverty.

well poverty still involves money. just lack of it. and look what that causes people to do

well maybe south park was right about religion, but without money there would still be wealth wars just over objects instead of money

no i dont think it would come down to wars over objects rather it would probably be over ideas. like the crusades. thats really what wars were about before money started causing wars

Evil comes from the heart of those who spew it.

Has anyone answered what "evil" is?

It's this thing that we don't like that we lable as evil.

evil is but a point of view... its main purpose is to sway people to follow the law and not to do things the community finds distasteful... such as rebellion... although the rebels find it to be the right thing society and especially the leaders of the society think the rebels as evil for trying to over throw them, good and evil is mostly a way to teach people to hate others

also... the ideal of omnipotence and choice cannot will not and never can go together, as free choice will have many different outcomes and if the future is known that implies the choice is known which means the choice isn't there... as well as one who creates ALL can't just give free choice... he also has to decide what the choices are, which means he gave us the choice to sin purposefully which means he wanted us to do it... same with predetermined events... in fact more so

true evil? i suppose from pain or internalisation of bad ideals/education.

highheadedness{an internalised bad ideal}, ethnocentrism, suppression of nondamaging biological instincts, lack of expirienced love etc also play a part. selfishness is also a great facilitater.

LOL

man, metaphysical evil makes me laugh, if the worst things in this world were the supression of instinct and government persuasion, we would be so much better off.

i wasnt talking about metaphysical evil though. i was merely talking about malice/sadism/desire for cruelty/negetivity/taking unhealthy pleasure from dominating others etc

Evil comes from the minds of humans. It's where it can only come from.

hmm.. well my post got moved to this one. mine was about is money really the root of all evil? i guess evil is a very strong, but broad term that could refer to a number of things. one mans evils could be anothers mans beliefs/ideals.. "evil" is just one mans reference to something he thinks is wrong. anyway you look at it though, "evil" is everywhere and its probably gonna be like that for a while.

Evil comes from ignorance.

evil comes from mcdonald french fries.

Ever wonder why so many people like them when they taste like shit? Its because its the source of all evil

There is an old saying that the fault lies in our stars but in our selves , because we are underlings.So I believe that evil is a stuff inside us.

Evil comes from me.

The God of Darkness and Destruction.

I'm going to run in generalities. Human evil comes -mostly- from the thought that humans know what is evil and what not, most prejudices can be justified from the idea of good and evil being relative, if they were absolute, we would be wrong pretty much all the time, who wants to be wrong? Lets assume its right to protect someone and kill someone else, because I know better.

Thats the origin of evil, but its not the definition.

First of all, lets get the fact clear, evil as an idea, good another one and so on. We are not even talking philosophies here, we are talking semantics, what you understand as good may not be my conception of it, making a discussion about it longer than necessary and annoying. Then again, if I use my conception of good to define evil and you don't like my conception of good, then you won't find any redeemable value in my thesis. Be warned, explaining things through my own set theories can be quite a pain.

Good is action. Good is inaction. Good is a set of choices and repercussions that lead to different results. Lets say for example that Good is a verb -an action-, I'm thinking about "walk". If Good is walk, what is Evil? Well, maybe it could be "not walk", but notice that this is the absence of an action rather than an action itself, lets look for something more like it; maybe a fine answer would be "to walk backwards", but then again, we are doing Good and adding conditions to it, this is not quite an action either; also, if Good is walk, what about "eat", "jump", "talk". This is precisely my thesis of evil, that, since good is an action, every other non good action is, to a degree, evil; most of them from omission more than opposition, there are also actions that will have an opposite result compared to walk, those are more profusely evil actions.

If I move from this basis, the problem is about the inherent goodness or evilness of each action; take for example walk and note that walking backwards would be evil. If good is not in the action, then where is good? It would need to balance every notion of the universe, to see every future, to construct every coincidence. We would not be able to grasp good simply because its impossible to know all the values and reasons. And so we are hit once again from my first paragraph, that human evil come from the idea of knowing what is good and what is bad. If I'm to accept that good is inherent from the action, I may be accepting to much, I will make unfair laws up to a situation that half of the time will be wrong and I won't notice. I have to accept that I don't know what good is, and yet try to do good at the same time -assuming that I want to do good-, because if I was to accept I will never know what good is, I'm again assuming too much and putting myself in the evil plan again.

This is a basic view of good and evil, from where does it come from, I think is more than debatable.

It comes from me, of course.

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". - (Act II, Scene II). Shakespeare

Not in my case.

Evil is the masses perception of what isnt "good".

Originally posted by vaya_the_elf
Where does evil come from?

I went to sunday school, and there were talking about evil as their topic. Found it very interesting.


They say evil comes from Free will.

What I mean is the god created us, and he gave us free will.

Since he gave us free will, some of us made some really bad choices which made evil.

The only way god could make evil go away is by giving up our free will. Then we would not be able to really love god, or anything else because love is a choice. Making someone do it is not love.

What do you think?

Yep, I agree we have free will. I choose to be a good.

Peace,
Amanda

I saw a fortune cookie once, that said evil came from ignorance. mmm

Originally posted by SelphieT
I saw a fortune cookie once, that said evil came from ignorance. mmm

I never saw that fortune cookie, before.

Peace,
Amanda

Originally posted by SelphieT
I saw a fortune cookie once, that said evil came from ignorance. mmm

makes sense

Originally posted by shaynebmxxx
makes sense

I agree, about the message in the cookie making sense.

Peace,
Amanda

Indeed! mmm