Christians dont love God............

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Impediment
Do christians really love their god? or just what he has to offer? Think about it........You dont love your parents simply because of what they have to offer do you? Of course not. But If the christian god really did exist (this is me speaking as an atheist) and appeared and said that there is no reward of eternal blissful afterlife in heaven for worshipping him, i guarantee that the bible would be as popular as reruns of the gong show. big grin

debbiejo
cry

No blissful afterlife?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Impediment
Do christians really love their god? or just what he has to offer? Think about it........You dont love your parents simply because of what they have to offer do you? Of course not. But If the christian god really did exist (this is me speaking as an atheist) and appeared and said that there is no reward of eternal blissful afterlife in heaven for worshipping him, i guarantee that the bible would be as popular as reruns of the gong show. big grin

Of course!

Not only bible but torah and quran and many others who believe in one god (mormon, i think??)

Tex
They created heaven to entice you and hell to entice you even more.

Those places do not exist.

As long as people consider Earth a pit-stop before their true eternal blissful heavenly destination, the positive advancement of humanity will be stifled.

debbiejo
You don't have to be a Christian to love God..To love God is to love people and to love all of creation and take care of both. Many Christians say they love God and then trash other people and the environment. And people don't even realize that in doing so they are really hurting themselves, It's just like craping in your own house and slapping your kids around, and then wonder what is wrong with everyones attitude, and man do our cities smell, and why can't we swim in our lakes. And it's not just Christians either..

Tex
Amen sista! thumb up

Darth Odious
The only reason why Christians worship God is out of fear of Hell. They just want to get a good seat, or if they're really good they get to sit in the vip lounge...forever...and ever...and ever...next to people like the local child molesting priest, Micheal Jackson, OJ Simpson, Bin Laden and crew, Richard Simmons, Winnona Ryder, Vanilla ice...Think of all the fun they'll have.

debbiejo
What did Richard Simmons, and Winnona Ryder do..Is it the naughty thing?

lil bitchiness
Im damned from Christian perspective to to hell because I dont believe in God.

And today, Im damned from Muslim perspective too - because i refuse to acknowledge quran as a word of god, and my will to be moral is worthless without me acknowledging a god.

Jews told me i might still go to heaven, even though i dont believe in god...

I love having religious debates with Christians, Muslims and Jews, its like a race o popularity!!

''Join us or suffer hell''
''No join us, if you join them you'll surely go to hell''
''They are both stupid, we are the one true religion, convert dammint or god will smite you''

droolio quality!

BlackC@t
In my opinion, Christians are too obsessed with doing things for God.

I have better things to do in my time...

debbiejo
What kind of things are you referring to?

vicki horvath
Being a Born Again Christian, who has an actual relationship with Our Lord Jesus, I have to say that while the thought of a blissful afterlife is enticing, it is not the only reason to love God. He takes care of his children while on this Earth also, He is pure Love. I would rather take a chance with someone who teaches righteous and good things, than take a chance on the things people of the world or Satan has to offer! Noone knows what is really going to happen at the end of it all, only Jesus does, but he does give us instructions for eternal salvation. And he did die for our sins! I will take my chances with Him anyday! And I do Love Him for what He has done for me, and is still doing! How could you not! And how can anyone be an athiest, just look around you! The reality and beauty speak for themselves! The ugliness and evilness also speak fr theirselves, I know whose side I woulld rather be on! If it turns out in the end that we just cease to exist, at least i have had a better more hopeful life being a Born Again Christian and serving a god who answers prayers! Take Care

God Puppet
Worship and love of god CAN start as fear. But I truly love him, without fear I'm not sure I would have learned how much I love him, but I did. If you walk into a church, or talk to many christians including myself, they'll tell you how content they are, how happy they are on earth, not because they know what the end will hold, but because they feel gods love and share it. I'd be happy just to serve god in heaven, because it'd be just that great to be in his presence. If you think that's still paradise, than you COULD say, you might not love your bio parents if they neglect you correct? Anyway, my two cents. smile

finti
never think I encountered a christian who didnt love the god he/she believed in

Jackie Malfoy
Originally posted by Impediment
Do christians really love their god? or just what he has to offer? Think about it........You dont love your parents simply because of what they have to offer do you? Of course not. But If the christian god really did exist (this is me speaking as an atheist) and appeared and said that there is no reward of eternal blissful afterlife in heaven for worshipping him, i guarantee that the bible would be as popular as reruns of the gong show. big grin

They have to love god to be christens.I am pretty sure anyway.JM confused

debbiejo
Originally posted by God Puppet
Worship and love of god CAN start as fear. But I truly love him, without fear I'm not sure I would have learned how much I love him, but I did. If you walk into a church, or talk to many christians including myself, they'll tell you how content they are, how happy they are on earth, not because they know what the end will hold, but because they feel gods love and share it. I'd be happy just to serve god in heaven, because it'd be just that great to be in his presence. If you think that's still paradise, than you COULD say, you might not love your bio parents if they neglect you correct? Anyway, my two cents. smile

We should never worship God out of fear! The church twisted respect and awesomeness with fear.

God Puppet
Originally posted by debbiejo
We should never worship God out of fear! The church twisted respect and awesomeness with fear.

No, you shouldn't remain fearful, but it can lead you on the right path. Just as a parent punishes a child for respect, later, the respect can grow to love. It happened with me. Now I have a mutual fear of god as to not make him angry, but a greater love of him. So...it's really like a father-son relationship. wink No, You shouldn't worship god from fear but from love, but as I said, fear can help.

debbiejo
You only fear God will punish you because that is what your denomination has taught you...The God I know says "Come let us reason together." Can't remember were that verse is though.

God Puppet
Hm? What religion are you exactly? Just another denomination of christianity? Either way, if so, check this out:

"The lord is a man of war: the lord is his name."-Exodus 15:3

"And the lord brought us forth out of egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:"-Deuteronomy 26:8
(These prove that if provoked, god can cause some damage)

This last one makes the truest point:
"And thou solomon my son, know thou fathers lord, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:if thou seek him, he will be found of thee;but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever."-I Chronicles 28:9

debbiejo
"Come let us Reason together" is also in the OT... You ask what denomination am I, I'm a heretic. That's how I would be classified.


blink

FeceMan
If I didn't really love God, would I bother wasting my time on here and defending Him as well as my beliefs? I could ask to be saved and do whatever the hell I wanted, you know.

God Puppet
Originally posted by debbiejo
"Come let us Reason together" is also in the OT... You ask what denomination am I, I'm a heretic. That's how I would be classified.


blink

Umm...what? Ok...really, what deonomination? Or are you all solo. Personally, that's me, I go to church, but it's not often. I just like to be around other christians. But hey, whatever. Even so, @FECE, just because you're saved, doesn't mean you can't be condemned, so no, if you sinned you'd be back at square one, you must ALWAYS ask for forgivness for god to forgive you...there's actually a few versus pointing this out too...just can't find them at the moment. I'll get back to you. smile

debbiejo
Originally posted by God Puppet
Umm...what? Ok...really, what deonomination? Or are you all solo. Personally, that's me, I go to church, but it's not often. I just like to be around other christians. But hey, whatever. Even so, @FECE, just because you're saved, doesn't mean you can't be condemned, so no, if you sinned you'd be back at square one, you must ALWAYS ask for forgivness for god to forgive you...there's actually a few versus pointing this out too...just can't find them at the moment. I'll get back to you. smile

Most of my friends are Christians, but If I told them how I thought, I'm sure they would call me a hieratic. They already give me little looks. That's what I meant. I guess I'm kinda solo, though there are others like me. And yes, I was raised all my life in the Christian church. Some Baptist, pentacostal, and latly SDA, also non-denom. I've also studdied reformed, World Wide Church of God, Jewish, Messianic Jews, which by the way is really growing and non-Jews are going there.

God Puppet
Hmm, interesting. I'd love to learn exactly WHY they'd think you a heretic...but this isn't the time nor the topic for that. Wow.....how'd we get on this subject anyway? Ah well, nvm. stick out tongue

debbiejo
Lets say, if your Baptist and don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, then you're a heretic in their eyes.

If you're a SDA(Seventh Day Adventist), and you don't believe that the mark of the Beast is Not keeping the Sabbath, Saturday, then you're a heretic.

You see my point? I guess it's if you think other than that denomination then you're labeled. So...I have my own beliefs...I don't quite fit in with any denomination, though I do like the "Mystery Religion." reading

But you're right, that's another subject.

FeceMan
I believe in once-saved, always saved. Yes, it's good to ask for forgiveness, but I don't believe that I have to have my last rites read to me on my deathbed or ask for forgiveness, lest I go to hell.

gp christ loves
i asume most of us here believe the bible strictly and dont add any other beliefs to it. if this is correct then we are christians no more no less we are not denomintations for it is when we label ourselves with those that we stray from what really matters and argue over things that aren't in the bible

God Puppet
While this is mostly true, the reason for denominations is that many people disagree on what some things in the bible mean. Such as cussing. Sinful? There's one thing that may lead you to believe this which in general pretty much says let only words that administer grace unto the hearers flow from your lips. Now, wether cussing's a sin or not, I'm not a fan of it, but non the less, people can get confused and disagree. smile

debbiejo
Originally posted by FeceMan
I believe in once-saved, always saved. Yes, it's good to ask for forgiveness, but I don't believe that I have to have my last rites read to me on my deathbed or ask for forgiveness, lest I go to hell.

If you believe in the "Once Saved Always Saved", then your church must have some Baptist roots.... eek! But that phrase is contradicted in the Bible then, because scripture says that "Your name can be blotted out of the book of life." It also talks about "If a friend strays and you pull them back in, then you've save them from the fires of hell." The Baptists can't say "They lost their salvation" because it's not in their theology, so they say "They weren't really saved to begin with." And that's a lie..There are many people who were very Strong believers that changed there minds. To say they were never saved is just playing with words...The Truth is if you believe in what the scriptures say, then you CAN lose your salvation. big grin

Heather 29
Yes we do Love God.

debbiejo
Do you believe, Heather 29, that you can lose your salvation?

finti
nice to be appreciated

ImmortalOne
FINTI... are u some kinda Anti-Christ er somthin ??
We(Christians) love GOD... WHy ?? Cuz he created US ALL, and offers many gifts such as... .... everlasting life in heaven, the air we breathe, the life we live...

We love God as our sense of gratitude to him for taking care of us all this time.....

Somebody said that what if everything that God offered in the first place is just a lie... I am 100% sure that the Lord himself will not lie !!

debbiejo
Not God, but the church and the people who put together and inturpret the scripture. I'm sorry, but they lied....There is NO HELL. A perfect God would not throw inperfect creatures into a firy torment because He was not pleased by their actions....

Back to Topic...Sure, Christians do love God and so do other religions. But God doesn't need anythings/ones love to be happy, content, fulfilled..etc..Otherwise God wouldn't be perfect then would he.

mr.smiley
Agreed.


god is everything.He is me and you.When we die,I don't realy belive in a heaven or hell but a state of being reconnnected with oneness.We become everything and everything becomes us.We don't think as "human",but well above any concept of thought.I hope that makes sense.

Kind of like we are God and we just don't realize it.

mr.smiley
Originally posted by gp christ loves
i asume most of us here believe the bible strictly and dont add any other beliefs to it. if this is correct then we are christians no more no less we are not denomintations for it is when we label ourselves with those that we stray from what really matters and argue over things that aren't in the bible


However,blind faith in nothing other than what we have been taught is crazy.Why be a zombie to the norm when you can think out of the box.Their is a whole world out their and your'e gonna let it pass you by because of the church scaring you to death about hell and damnation?

debbiejo
Originally posted by mr.smiley
Agreed.


god is everything.He is me and you.When we die,I don't realy belive in a heaven or hell but a state of being reconnnected with oneness.We become everything and everything becomes us.We don't think as "human",but well above any concept of thought.I hope that makes sense.

Kind of like we are God and we just don't realize it.

Everything seems to point in that direction if you study it out... yes

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by mr.smiley
However,blind faith in nothing other than what we have been taught is crazy.Why be a zombie to the norm when you can think out of the box.Their is a whole world out their and your'e gonna let it pass you by because of the church scaring you to death about hell and damnation?

So where do we go when we refuse connection?

finti
anti christ in the sense I dont believe in christ

AdventChild
Originally posted by ImmortalOne
FINTI... are u some kinda Anti-Christ er somthin ??
We(Christians) love GOD... WHy ?? Cuz he created US ALL, and offers many gifts such as... .... everlasting life in heaven, the air we breathe, the life we live...

We love God as our sense of gratitude to him for taking care of us all this time.....

Somebody said that what if everything that God offered in the first place is just a lie... I am 100% sure that the Lord himself will not lie !!

Just shut up already....If God loved us why should we prove ourselves worthy....If he's almighty and powerful then why didn't he know that Lucifer was going to turn against him.... if he's so great why doesn't he do anything about the innocent dying and all the suffering people....I stopped believing in him cause he stopped believing us.....

debbiejo
He didn't stop believing in us...we just stopped believing in us and trusted everything we are. Instead we listen to men in high places.

AdventChild
i'm sry ....i think God is just an idea...as well as the devil and most other religions....so and idea can't stop believing in us because it's an idea created by man....

debbiejo
Originally posted by AdventChild
i'm sry ....i think God is just an idea...as well as the devil and most other religions....so and idea can't stop believing in us because it's an idea created by man....

You can...You can believe God is just an idea...The way people have screwed up the idea sometimes it's easier to just believe that...

For me, I know there is something I'm apart of and it's apart of me...It's in everything I touch, it communicates with me through experiences and I believe it is God in some form.

AdventChild
i will admit to believing in something far more powerful than us tho...not nessciarily a GOD but a superior being...

debbiejo
Superior being? How so?

AdventChild
as in something that created the universe....the stars...and so forth...

debbiejo
Ok then...you just don't like the name God....Well, superior Being works... alien

AdventChild
you are on a roll tonite! LOL!
laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing out loud laughing laughing laughing laughing

debbiejo
Look!^ You created your own race...You are God...I'm like a puppy, I'll follow anyone who says they're god..

Hey, where'd the other god go?? I'm all by myself. Both the gods are gone.

AdventChild
if i was gay i'd tell you that i loved you! laughing haha on a roll!haha!

debbiejo
laughing laughing laughing laughing I'm glad you're not gay....I just don't want those visions dancing in my head.

Lazerlike42
Originally posted by AdventChild
Just shut up already....If God loved us why should we prove ourselves worthy....If he's almighty and powerful then why didn't he know that Lucifer was going to turn against him.... if he's so great why doesn't he do anything about the innocent dying and all the suffering people....I stopped believing in him cause he stopped believing us.....

God did know that Satan (Lucifer is NOT the correct term and is very, very mistakenly taken to be the name of Satan) was going to turn against Him. He knew you were going to do the same. Satan was allowed to turn against God out of Love, as were you. It is a purely human expression to say that if you really love someone you will love them enough to let them go, and it is true. God wants us to be able to do what we want and to have freedom.

When I was younger, we had a dog. He was inherited to my family, and they did not dislike him but he was more a burden than anything, and they did not love him. I did. They required him to spend his life chained up on a 6 foot leash, chained to a chair his entire life, other than when we walked him. This is not love. They took care of him, fed him, took him to the vet, and had him groomed, but they clearly did not love him.

When I was MUCH younger, too young to remember, my family had another dog that was not inherited and was their own. He was allowed to roam the house, and was not on a leash. They loved him. Now it made it so that he could harm them (by chewing stuff up, urinating on the carpet, etc.), or that he could get harmed (by going somewhere unsafe due to his lack of restraint). He eventually did get hurt; he escaped and got hit by a car and died.

The fact is, however, that the first dog was kept tied up out of a lack of love, whereas the second was let free out of love. This is the same with God. He lets us be free, and have free will. He lets us do this, even though we can hurt ourselves (by killing one another, by letting ourselves or others wind up in poverty, by making choices that send us to hell), and we can hurt Him (by rejecting Him, by persecuting those who believe in Him).

This is why suffering exists. Additionally, it exists because it doesn't matter! In the end the suffering of this earth does not matter one bit. We do not suffer on this earth out of punishment from God (other than those times He does choose to punish us), but the following example holds true. When a parent punishes a child, the parent knows the child is suffering. The parent does not stop the child's suffering because of this, because the parent knows that the suffering does not matter in the end. In the end, the child will learn something which will help it be safer and more succesful in life. The parent knows that the child will be better off in the end and that the suffering doesn't matter. God lets us suffer because it doesn't matter at all; only what comes after life truly matters.

Furthermore, it is not God that makes us suffer, but ourselves and Satan. We make choices to lead to our suffering, and Satan encourages us to make these choices. God cannot stop it because he is a righteous and faithful God. He has promised us all free will. If God chooses to keep people safe from the suffering caused by terrorists, then he is not following His promise to the terrorists that they may have free will. To do anything else requires God to play favorites, and to treat some different from others. He cannot because it is not righteous to do so, and it is not fair to treat me one way and you another. It is not right to promise Saddam Hussein free will and then go back on that promise because He does not like what Saddam is doing. That would be like a parent telling a young child that she can spend her $5 in birthday money on anything she wants, and then not letting her buy something because ithe parent does not like it, only much worse. You may say that the parent is only doing that because he or she is wiser than the child and is trying to protect the child, but that is a HUMAN reaction, one that is still wrong, and one that still requires the breaking of a promise. God is perfect and cannot break a promise as this would be imperfection and it would be wrong. Even the most minor wronghood is something God cannot do because He cannot do any wronghood, not matter how small.

Hell was not made for us. It was not made for humans. It was made for Satan and his demons (other fallen angels). The only way we can end up there is by telling God that we want to go there. By rejecting God, that is what we are telling Him. He made Heaven for us. This is the key. God has made two places.... Heaven, for us, and Hell, for Satan. Once we die we must go to one or the other. When we reject God, we reject His gift of Heaven. Why?

We can choose to be one of two things: dependant on God, or independant of Him. When we believe, we accept what He is, and we know that we are dependant on Him. When we choose not to believe, for whatever reason, whether we are mad at Him, or just belive He does not exist, we are saying that we are fine on our own. We are saying that we can take care of ourselves and don't need anyone to do it for us. Now some parents are different and cut children off earlier, but for most people, we reach the age where we are old enough to support ourselves, but our parents still want to pay for our haircuts and provide us with health insurance, and especially clothing and food. Most of the time we accept these things. Some teenagers become so set on being independant, and refuse to accept food, clothing, anything from their parents.

Even though these parents are forever standing with their hands out, food and clothing being offered freely, the children want to support themseleves. Why? Perhaps they don't want to feel bound to their rules. Perhaps they just want to feel like they are not dependant on them. Either way, the food is there, the clothes are there, but it is simply not taken.

When we say we are independant from God, this is what we are doing. He is literally standing there offering to us all He has to give, and we simply say we don't want it. Maybe we don't want to follow his rules. Do we say that a parent does not love us because they want us to folow rules? Of course not. We know that (other than a few crazy parents here and there) their rules are designed because they know what is best for us and their rules are for our own good, even if we don't understand why. Nobody would say a parent does not love a child because the parent has rules. Maybe we are saying that we want to be independant from God. Either way, He is standing there, even more so He is walking up to us and asking us to take what He is offering and we are simply saying no!

God Loves you even now. You can say the most horrible things about Him and He still loves. There is nothing you can do that will turn him away from you. It is never too late, no matter what you have done. If you are stubborn, or won't turn to God because you have not for so long, it doesn't matter. He Loves you.... He Loves you.

God Bless You

debbiejo
I believe He loves everyone...And wouldn't send anyone to hell. WHY? because it's not in His nature. A perfect God wouldn't send ANY of His creation away just because it's imperfect or never heard of Jesus...That would make Him imperfect and have human tendencies which are flawed.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
I believe He loves everyone...And wouldn't send anyone to hell. WHY? because it's not in His nature. A perfect God wouldn't send ANY of His creation away just because it's imperfect or never heard of Jesus...That would make Him imperfect and have human tendencies which are flawed.

Your right, God doesn't send us to Hell. It is an object chosen by those who don't want to be with him. That's all it is. That's the only reason why he made. God's all about freedom of choice. So after you live your life, based about the way you lived, he gives you two options. You can reign with me in paradise, or sperate yourself from me, and live in torment. He's basically making the choice for you, but you wouldn't believe the amount of people who take the ladder...

debbiejo
I knew you'd say that...

Again, people don't go into torment...that is a creation of the Roman Church...The weeping and gnashing of teeth does NOT remotely suggest eternal torment...

Why torture yourself.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
I knew you'd say that...

Again, people don't go into torment...that is a creation of the Roman Church...The weeping and gnashing of teeth does NOT remotely suggest eternal torment...

Why torture yourself.

It's good to know that you know me that well. wink

Why does one weep and knash teeth? I always thought in the presence of great pain. Why torture yourself? Because some people are that stupid...

debbiejo
People can weep and gnash and not be in eternal torment... I've weeped and gnashed...haven't you?

Lazerlike42
Originally posted by debbiejo
I believe He loves everyone...And wouldn't send anyone to hell. WHY? because it's not in His nature. A perfect God wouldn't send ANY of His creation away just because it's imperfect or never heard of Jesus...That would make Him imperfect and have human tendencies which are flawed.

There are many trains of thought on this idea.

Some believe that it is the belief in God as a person knows Him that matters. By this thought, some African tribe would be fine because they believe and trust in what they think of as God. I don't go for this one.

Some theologians (actually the first was Catholic bishop) have suggsted that when a person dies, he or she is brought before God and given the entire truth about creation and given the choice to choose. This is based on a few things. For one, the Bible says several times that all men will hear the truth. Secondly, God is out of time. He is not constrained by the bounds of time, and therefore a choice made at death (when we too would be in some way outside of time, though in a lesser way to God) would be just as good as a choice any other time (although this does not enable one who has heard the truth in life to go through life rejecting it purposefully knowing he can just change his mind at death). I kind of like this idea. I am not sure if it is true, but it could be.

The bottom line is we don't know a thing compare to God, so He could do it any way. I think everyone has to choose, and can condemn themselves to Hell, BUT I also believe everyone is actually given that choice at some point.

This also could start to get into the Calvanist/Arminian debate, one which I have no interest in digging up!

debbiejo
Though when studying the "concept of Hell", it is clear to me, that it doesn't exist. It was expounded and elaborated on by Justin Martyr for one in 150 AD, and has grown from there...Gee, look at what Johnathon Edwards did to it!!! Though I did grow up with this idea for ever tormented in hell that is.

I'll post it again...Of course this is only the ending conclusions for a much larger article.
SOME FACTS ABOUT HELL..AND NOBODIES GOING THERE..

IMPORTANT FACTS
Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15: 8; II Kings 17: 10; II Chron. 28: 3; Jer. 7: 31, 32; 19: 2.
Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.
The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says: "What meaning would the Jews who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery and death?"
The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.
Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment as it would have been had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.
No Jewish writer, such as Josephus or Philo, ever uses it as the name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done had such then been its meaning.
No classic Greek author ever alludes to it and therefore it was a Jewish locality, purely.
The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel who wrote, according to various authorities, from the second to the eighth century, A. D.
The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.
Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.
It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?
Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned sinners against it were there such a place?
;nbsp
Dr. Thayer significantly remarks: "The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or Hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning and believed it a part of Christ's teaching that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching,and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations never under any circumstances threaten them with the torments of Gehenna or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment and that this is part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word."
Jesus never uttered it to unbelieving Jews, nor to anybody but his disciples, but twice (Matt. 23: 15-33) during his entire ministry, nor but four times in all. If it were the final abode of unhappy millions, would not his warnings abound with exhortations to avoid it?
Jesus never warned unbelievers against it but once in all his ministry (Matt. 23: 33) and he immediately explained it as about to come in this life.
If Gehenna is the name of Hell then men's bodies are burned there as well as their souls. Matt. 5: 29; 18: 9.
If it be the name of endless torment, then literal fire is the sinner's punishment. Mark 9: 43-48.
Salvation is never said to be from Gehenna.
Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.
Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.
A shameful death or severe punishment in this life was at the time of Christ denominated Gehenna (Schleusner, Canon Farrar and others), and there is no evidence that Gehenna meant anything else at the time of Christ.http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

This link is from a different site.

__________________
****IF I THROW A STICK...WILL YOU LEAVE?****

finti
now where is papa smurf when you need him?

debbiejo
Because he's in hell...That's why he's BLUE!! Cause one concept of hell is cold darkness...And he's very very cold....


OK..this is an excellent site for ya, Lazerlike...It's very interesting.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html

According the what the word hell really means...We are all going there.

finti
last I heard he was in Belgium but then again Belgium is were the EU parliament is situated and it is close to France so hell would be a good name as any for it

debbiejo
France = hell...I don't want to go there. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

finti
no but being close to France is whats hell

debbiejo
Well, you're closer to hell then me then.

Lazerlike42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Because he's in hell...That's why he's BLUE!! Cause one concept of hell is cold darkness...And he's very very cold....


OK..this is an excellent site for ya, Lazerlike...It's very interesting.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.html

According the what the word hell really means...We are all going there.

I shall take a look! I am pretty familiar with that whole train of thought. I have a site somewhere that covers this stuff I am looking for it stick out tongue

debbiejo
K

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
Because he's in hell...That's why he's BLUE!! Cause one concept of hell is cold darkness...And he's very very cold....


OK..this is an excellent site for ya, Lazerlike...It's very interesting.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/hell.htmln

According the what the word hell really means...We are all going there.

Very interesting. However the bible can never taken word for word, therefore I find it incircumstantial evidence to use the bible word for word. And besides, Hell is a complicated topic anyway.

debbiejo
^ Yes, I know...I've studied it out many time from different points of view in my life. On one side to the other.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
^ Yes, I know...I've studied it out many time from different points of view in my life. On one side to the other.

And you seemed to have taken the easy way out...

debbiejo
Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
And you seemed to have taken the easy way out...

If you knew me, you'd know that's not true...In the past I've bought books about hell and gave them to people...I didn't want anyone to go there...I was an advent believer....

I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go to hell, so why would a God who loves you send anyone there???? Answer he wouldn't.

Look at these teaching about hell...They're disgusting...Read what Johnathan Edwards taught that the Baptists and other fundamentalists picked up on and teach.....It's sickening...At least the Catholics , now, give you a purgatory...though that's not Biblical either.

God would NOT do that...You're making God look really bad and defaming His character.http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/AncientHell.htm

Wake up people.....It is a lie...

Have you ever read his sermon "in the hands of an angry God??" Well tell you what...little babies are wreathing in the fires of hell for eternity along with little children screaming and crying for help...These are teaching of sick men.

Lazerlike42
Children are not. The book of Isaiah teaches about an age of accountability younger than which a child is not responsible for accepting or Rejecting God, or for his sins, presumably.

debbiejo
You are talking about the OT and the OT...teaches that hell, sheol is a pit or a grave...And yes the church did change the teaching to the age of accountability cause the idea of hell was too sickning and the church had to think of something after teaching the stuff of J. Edwards.



Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the
tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!"

"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and
gratitude of the saints of heaven."
The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire,
in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest,
in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast
waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they
shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes,
their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever
be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and
elements; and also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively
sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one
age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions
of ages, one after another, but forever and ever, without any end at all, and
never to be delivered."




Johathan Edwards...

Please get educated.http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

Lazerlike42
No the BIBLE teaches about the age, in the OT book of Isaiah.

I would also direct you here as far as the OT teachings on Sheol/Hell etc.



Also, I am still looking for the site I want. I CAUTIOUSLY recommend this page to address these issues. The site in general is not perfect, and makes it's mistakes. It is definitely fundamentalist. You must be careful when reading it, however I have checked out that page and it is ok. I only offer this in the interim until I can provide the site I am really looking for as somewhat of an appetizer.

debbiejo
I have been reading all your links....I hope you are also reading mine.
It's only fair. stick out tongue


The points I'm trying to make is that you need to know your Jewish History, the time, setting, and culture of the Biblical events.

Lazerlike42
Originally posted by debbiejo
I have been reading all your links....I hope you are also reading mine.
It's only fair.

I am taking a look at them; I am pretty well versed in Christian apologetics so most of it is nothing new to me lol...

but like I said be really careful poking around that other one it borders on the "wacko" but the general facts are ok....

the page I would prefer to post does not seem to be there anymore. It is a large site however and links change there so I am trying to see if the link has changed

finti
yeah and soon I will rule that as well

debbiejo
Originally posted by Lazerlike42
I am taking a look at them; I am pretty well versed in Christian apologetics so most of it is nothing new to me lol...

but like I said be really careful poking around that other one it borders on the "wacko" but the general facts are ok....

the page I would prefer to post does not seem to be there anymore. It is a large site however and links change there so I am trying to see if the link has changed

Well I grew up in "Waco" churchs...Am very familiar with it.

I also am familiar with the info on that site...

finti
aint they all

Lazerlike42
You would be quite correct to say that Hell is not a place of everlasting torment and burning; just though I would clarify this.

debbiejo
So what's the duration?

Lazerlike42
it's everlasting but it's got very little, if anything, to do with torment and burning

debbiejo
Outer darkness...Alone in a dark place? And where is this place? If heaven and earth pass away along with everything old, then there can't be such a place, because punishment is something old, of the old world.

Lazerlike42
The most simple way to put it would be to say that it is an everlasting seperation from God.

debbiejo
As in where, because there is no place where God is not.

Lazerlike42
Originally posted by debbiejo
As in where, because there is no place where God is not.

lol well I don't believe that, which is where we have our difference stick out tongue.... as we seem to be discussing in the other thread.

debbiejo
yup...some differences....But Job stated that there was no place where God was not.

AdventChild
Originally posted by Lazerlike42
God did know that Satan (Lucifer is NOT the correct term and is very, very mistakenly taken to be the name of Satan) was going to turn against Him. He knew you were going to do the same. Satan was allowed to turn against God out of Love, as were you. It is a purely human expression to say that if you really love someone you will love them enough to let them go, and it is true. God wants us to be able to do what we want and to have freedom.

When I was younger, we had a dog. He was inherited to my family, and they did not dislike him but he was more a burden than anything, and they did not love him. I did. They required him to spend his life chained up on a 6 foot leash, chained to a chair his entire life, other than when we walked him. This is not love. They took care of him, fed him, took him to the vet, and had him groomed, but they clearly did not love him.

When I was MUCH younger, too young to remember, my family had another dog that was not inherited and was their own. He was allowed to roam the house, and was not on a leash. They loved him. Now it made it so that he could harm them (by chewing stuff up, urinating on the carpet, etc.), or that he could get harmed (by going somewhere unsafe due to his lack of restraint). He eventually did get hurt; he escaped and got hit by a car and died.

The fact is, however, that the first dog was kept tied up out of a lack of love, whereas the second was let free out of love. This is the same with God. He lets us be free, and have free will. He lets us do this, even though we can hurt ourselves (by killing one another, by letting ourselves or others wind up in poverty, by making choices that send us to hell), and we can hurt Him (by rejecting Him, by persecuting those who believe in Him).

This is why suffering exists. Additionally, it exists because it doesn't matter! In the end the suffering of this earth does not matter one bit. We do not suffer on this earth out of punishment from God (other than those times He does choose to punish us), but the following example holds true. When a parent punishes a child, the parent knows the child is suffering. The parent does not stop the child's suffering because of this, because the parent knows that the suffering does not matter in the end. In the end, the child will learn something which will help it be safer and more succesful in life. The parent knows that the child will be better off in the end and that the suffering doesn't matter. God lets us suffer because it doesn't matter at all; only what comes after life truly matters.

Furthermore, it is not God that makes us suffer, but ourselves and Satan. We make choices to lead to our suffering, and Satan encourages us to make these choices. God cannot stop it because he is a righteous and faithful God. He has promised us all free will. If God chooses to keep people safe from the suffering caused by terrorists, then he is not following His promise to the terrorists that they may have free will. To do anything else requires God to play favorites, and to treat some different from others. He cannot because it is not righteous to do so, and it is not fair to treat me one way and you another. It is not right to promise Saddam Hussein free will and then go back on that promise because He does not like what Saddam is doing. That would be like a parent telling a young child that she can spend her $5 in birthday money on anything she wants, and then not letting her buy something because ithe parent does not like it, only much worse. You may say that the parent is only doing that because he or she is wiser than the child and is trying to protect the child, but that is a HUMAN reaction, one that is still wrong, and one that still requires the breaking of a promise. God is perfect and cannot break a promise as this would be imperfection and it would be wrong. Even the most minor wronghood is something God cannot do because He cannot do any wronghood, not matter how small.

Hell was not made for us. It was not made for humans. It was made for Satan and his demons (other fallen angels). The only way we can end up there is by telling God that we want to go there. By rejecting God, that is what we are telling Him. He made Heaven for us. This is the key. God has made two places.... Heaven, for us, and Hell, for Satan. Once we die we must go to one or the other. When we reject God, we reject His gift of Heaven. Why?

We can choose to be one of two things: dependant on God, or independant of Him. When we believe, we accept what He is, and we know that we are dependant on Him. When we choose not to believe, for whatever reason, whether we are mad at Him, or just belive He does not exist, we are saying that we are fine on our own. We are saying that we can take care of ourselves and don't need anyone to do it for us. Now some parents are different and cut children off earlier, but for most people, we reach the age where we are old enough to support ourselves, but our parents still want to pay for our haircuts and provide us with health insurance, and especially clothing and food. Most of the time we accept these things. Some teenagers become so set on being independant, and refuse to accept food, clothing, anything from their parents.

Even though these parents are forever standing with their hands out, food and clothing being offered freely, the children want to support themseleves. Why? Perhaps they don't want to feel bound to their rules. Perhaps they just want to feel like they are not dependant on them. Either way, the food is there, the clothes are there, but it is simply not taken.

When we say we are independant from God, this is what we are doing. He is literally standing there offering to us all He has to give, and we simply say we don't want it. Maybe we don't want to follow his rules. Do we say that a parent does not love us because they want us to folow rules? Of course not. We know that (other than a few crazy parents here and there) their rules are designed because they know what is best for us and their rules are for our own good, even if we don't understand why. Nobody would say a parent does not love a child because the parent has rules. Maybe we are saying that we want to be independant from God. Either way, He is standing there, even more so He is walking up to us and asking us to take what He is offering and we are simply saying no!

God Loves you even now. You can say the most horrible things about Him and He still loves. There is nothing you can do that will turn him away from you. It is never too late, no matter what you have done. If you are stubborn, or won't turn to God because you have not for so long, it doesn't matter. He Loves you.... He Loves you.

God Bless You

wow.....
......You have said alot...Nothing of which i don't already know.....i used to believe strongly in christ...but eventually it just didn't matter to me...because when the end comes, it's here and my existence wouldn't make a difference at all....I believe that God is just an idea that man created...Who created Who? Did God really create us or Did we create God?....

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by AdventChild
wow.....
......You have said alot...Nothing of which i don't already know.....i used to believe strongly in christ...but eventually it just didn't matter to me...because when the end comes, it's here and my existence wouldn't make a difference at all....I believe that God is just an idea that man created...Who created Who? Did God really create us or Did we create God?....

Ahh, I have been wondering what you were...of course, once a believer...not bad, what was your reasons for leaving? Curiosity, doubt, "enlightenment"...

AdventChild
Why do all this good when you only have one life to do what ever you want...I don't want to be a slave to some "GOD" no matter how glamourous people want to make it look like...Serving God as a slave...it's as if we are only given two choices when we die in religious terms...#1. Become a slave to serve a superior being or a "GOD"....
or #2. Suffer for an eternity with satan and eventually die....
I'd rather suffer and die than to serve some one or a "GOD" and be a slave....
I just rather not believe in any of that....I rather not get involved in one's ideas or follow some fairy tale book.....

debbiejo
Originally posted by AdventChild
Why do all this good when you only have one life to do what ever you want...I.

Why wouldn't you want to go good? Isn't it natural?

finti
not for selfish persons

debbiejo
That's right!!!

If you take the Bible only for symbolism you could say it was meant like this.

Goodness = God
Selfishness = Satan

There are many who believe that satan is not a literal person but the personification of wrong doings or evil.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by AdventChild
Why do all this good when you only have one life to do what ever you want...I don't want to be a slave to some "GOD" no matter how glamourous people want to make it look like...Serving God as a slave...it's as if we are only given two choices when we die in religious terms...#1. Become a slave to serve a superior being or a "GOD"....
or #2. Suffer for an eternity with satan and eventually die....
I'd rather suffer and die than to serve some one or a "GOD" and be a slave....
I just rather not believe in any of that....I rather not get involved in one's ideas or follow some fairy tale book.....

Enlightenment...I see. Would you care to debat this? I understand that the probability of you changing you mine, especially to an utter and complete stranger is slim to none, but i'm sure a good sparr would relax the muscles...

AdventChild
Originally posted by debbiejo
Why wouldn't you want to go good? Isn't it natural?
I meant moral good like having sex before marriage.....not lying...cheating (on tests!) disobeying your parents, stealing, and all that....... i know these things are wrong but they must be disobeyed if nesscesary...we only have one life to live...Might as well live it to the fullest of YOUR desire...NOT FOR A GROUP OF PEOPLE'S BELIEFS and IDEAs.... that's what i mean for "why do all this good"..... and sure i'll debate prince of blades..ur making the thread though.....

debbiejo
Originally posted by AdventChild
I meant moral good like having sex before marriage.....not lying...cheating (on tests!) disobeying your parents, stealing,


So moral bad??

AdventChild
yes!

debbiejo
Maybe you should have some nice calm tea...Wouldn't it be hard to keep friends being like that?

finti
how is moral bad?

AdventChild
i'm confused....i was saying that sex before marriage ect... is morally bad to christians and to god an all that....i'd rather not believe in that..i believe one life one chance live it to the best you can....have fun...live a little....

finti
ok you kind of confused everyone else by answering yes to the question moral bad?

debbiejo
Originally posted by AdventChild
i'm confused....i was saying that sex before marriage ect... is morally bad to christians and to god an all that....i'd rather not believe in that..i believe one life one chance live it to the best you can....have fun...live a little....

So you're saying you would be what some people call immoral?

finti
sex before marriage aint immoral it is a human right

debbiejo
Of course you'd champion that. wink Though we all did it...We're just a bunch of horny animals.....myself excluded.. stick out tongue

debbiejo
Wonder what happened to laserlike42?

finti
maybe he got horny

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by finti
maybe he got horny

I highly doubt that, but am not excluding it from the options....

finti
why you think he is a monk

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
why you think he is a monk

Monks got horny too...along with Popes. And they weren't wearing a Viking hat.

AdventChild
Originally posted by debbiejo
So moral bad??
no!
there we go... big grin

debbiejo
I just meant
There is moral and immoral.

Moral good and moral bad.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
I just meant
There is moral and immoral.

Moral good and moral bad.

apparently she doesn't believe in either. A petit way to live outside the human realm, but still a way....

mr.smiley
their is good and bad,but in the end that in itself is good.If their was no bad in this,no suffering,life would have no meaning.

PrinceofBlades
If there was no after life, life would have no purpose...

debbiejo
Originally posted by mr.smiley
their is good and bad,but in the end that in itself is good.If their was no bad in this,no suffering,life would have no meaning.

I've read that God created both good and evil...That for everything there is a polar opposite, but like in nature...Male/ Female, Up/ down, hot/ cold, love/fear,


If the after life is reincarnation then your life would still have meaning. You would just live your live creating your heaven or hell here, and some believe that you don't even have to reincarnate, you can stay with the True One.

finti
life is for living and thats the purpose of life

debbiejo
I've found my special purpose....

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by finti
life is for living and thats the purpose of life

That's not a purpose it an action. What do you do with life, you live it. What comes after life? Now that what we live for. To live life to achieve a greater one, that is purpose. To perform an action, and gain nothing, is a waste.

finti
just a natural cycle nothing more

that would be my defenition on a religous act

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by finti
just a natural cycle nothing more

that would be my defenition on a religous act

The human body is a natural process. However because oour soul is defined as different than the body. God like, than it's process is supernatural. Shaped, molded, defined, and made into what it is when we die. That is a supernatural process, because when we die, it does not. And continues on to the fruit of our actions. To either eat the sweetness of our labor, or the bitterness of our actions.

debbiejo
Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
The human body is a natural process. However because oour soul is defined as different than the body. God like, than it's process is supernatural. Shaped, molded, defined, and made into what it is when we die. That is a supernatural process, because when we die, it does not. And continues on to the fruit of our actions. To either eat the sweetness of our labor, or the bitterness of our actions.

Like apples or lemons..??

Though I think we're a spirit that's wearing body clothes...Can't wait to shed mine.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
Like apples or lemons..??

Though I think we're a spirit that's wearing body clothes...Can't wait to shed mine.

How so like fruit.

As long as you recognize that not only there's a soul, but its compeletly different than the body. But is unified in this life.

debbiejo
Sweetness of our labor and bitterness of our actions. Though lemons are sour.

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
Sweetness of our labor and bitterness of our actions. Though lemons are sour.

But some are sweet. But by bitterness I mean fruits of bad actions. Like murder, it's a terrible action. To take the life of someone who doesn't belong to you. An action that can never be justly righted by man. That is a bitter fruit...

debbiejo
yes Agreed

PrinceofBlades
Great that makes two people, now if only I can get the rest...

AdventChild
Originally posted by finti
life is for living and thats the purpose of life

The purpose for life is death...You live to die at the end...

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by AdventChild
The purpose for life is death...You live to die at the end...

Death is but another stage in the grand scheme of things...

AdventChild
that's ur opinion not fact....you wouldn't know...

AdventChild
i know after life there is death...we only live to die at the end..as in die i mean as your body's heart stops beating and all your organs stop working...

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by AdventChild
i know after life there is death...we only live to die at the end..as in die i mean as your body's heart stops beating and all your organs stop working...

but you sould continues on...another belief (just thought I should add)

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by AdventChild
that's ur opinion not fact....you wouldn't know...

As niether would you...

debbiejo
If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?"

PrinceofBlades
Perhaps it is a science after all...

PrinceofBlades
Anyways I gtg see you tomorrow C~ya

AdventChild
Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
As niether would you...
i know.....but i do know we die..after life..and thats the point i'm trying to make....we only live to die....that soul may carry on but our body is gone... do believe in an afterlife..not an actually heave or hell though....

debbiejo
laughing out loud

God works in mysterious ways..

AdventChild
?

debbiejo
Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Perhaps it is a science after all...


Advent...I was posting to this....

You guys type fast.

AdventChild
lol go to the off topic forum.... and look up the thread your favorite all time KMCer...ur on my list!

debbiejo
Aaaaww...Thank you....I'm special...

I am a real girl now.

AdventChild
cool big grin stick out tongue

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by AdventChild
i know.....but i do know we die..after life..and thats the point i'm trying to make....we only live to die....that soul may carry on but our body is gone... do believe in an afterlife..not an actually heave or hell though....

As do I...your going to find out that everyone here believe in relatively the same thing...we just fight over the details...

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by debbiejo
Aaaaww...Thank you....I'm special...

I am a real girl now.

I voted for you...as well as everyone else shifty

debbiejo
big grin

PrinceofBlades
I was actually surprise to see you there. You don't strike me as an off the topic kinda girl...

debbiejo
That's my evil twin....

PrinceofBlades
Ahhh, of course....

fruits
Originally posted by Impediment
Do christians really love their god? or just what he has to offer? Think about it........You dont love your parents simply because of what they have to offer do you? Of course not. But If the christian god really did exist (this is me speaking as an atheist) and appeared and said that there is no reward of eternal blissful afterlife in heaven for worshipping him, i guarantee that the bible would be as popular as reruns of the gong show. big grin
i am a christian and i do love god. im not sure, its a possibility that it is because of what he offers, but i dont know. thats a toughy. ill get back on it

debbiejo
Originally posted by fruits
i am a christian and i do love god. im not sure, its a possibility that it is because of what he offers, but i dont know. thats a toughy. ill get back on it

Of course you love god for what he offers...You're belief is that in doing so you won't go to hell.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>