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...and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I've debated this with my friend and because her favourite subject is SCIENCE, she argues that sounds still exists even though no one else can hear it. What are you thoughts on this??

i believe the same as ur friend.

light must exist when we don't see it doesn't it?

I also agree.

If a woman yells at a man and no one hears, is he still wrong?

Originally posted by debbiejo
I also agree.

If a woman yells at a man and no one hears, is he still wrong?

Now that's a more debatable forum.

But getting back to the original question. I would have to say No. The only way you would know if a tree fell in the forest is if you saw its debris. However, you can see a tree falling from a distance without actually hearing it. So you don't have to hear the tree at all.

These are questions we may never find an answear too.JM

"Things do exist". However for humans to know it, they have to use their 5 senses, to imput it into their brains... If a tree falls, no humans around, therefore humans interpret the event to the proof they know, which is the tree never existed. For animals however, which saw it, knows that the tree exist, because they have all the proof they need.

It's just the same as where london doesn't exist, for those who never been there or heard of it?

Follow the teachings of your sig, peterKSL, 'cause you're confusing the issue. Just because a tree falls in the forest and no human is around to hear it doesn't mean it never existed. It could have been standing tall one day and down the next. The sound may not have been heard by human ears, but the object still exists regardless of no sound.

The question is: "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" and not "Does the tree fall when nobody observes?" peterKSL.

The perception of sound is the sense of hearing. Someone would have to hear it in order for it to be classified as sound.


And a parody

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

The Voices Reply:

Conscience: Wow... an old question. Also unanswerable...

Reaper: No it' s not.

Conscience: Um... yes it is. You are just saying the opposite of what I' m saying, aren' t you?

Reaper: No!

Conscience: Then what sound does it make?

Reaper: It goes "CRUNCH!"

Conscience: How do you know?

Reaper: A little bird told me.

Conscience: Real mature... I have that finger too, you know...

Reaper: Well I heard a tree fall! So I know!

Conscience: You can' t know. If a tree falls in the forest and someone is there, then that person knows what sound it made, and the question doesn' t apply. The question is that if no one is there, and no one is there to witness the falling, does it make a sound?

Reaper: Yes.

Conscience: Why?

Reaper: Because I have heard a tree fall. It makes a sound.

Conscience: AAAHHH!!!

Stinger: I have a message from the head. He says that he will remain neutral.

Conscience: You got a message from the brain? I didn' t know that you communicated with that as well...

Stinger: What does the brain have to do with anything? The message came from the head that our host thinks with.

Conscience: Did the Head' s actual message involve grunting?

Stinger: How did you know?

Conscience: GET ME OUT OF HERE!

Yes, it does make a sound... the energy must be displaced in some form. Just because something isn't detected is no grounds to say it never happened when there is evidence it happened in the past.

The animals running away form it heard it, just ask them.

And no Debbie, he wouldn't be wrong. That's why men make
it a priority to not hear a word a woman says to them.

actually i think that it was more a philosophical question than a scientific one.neway

if the screams of the dead fall upon deaf ears, does it mean that they dont scream?

as long as there is some conciousness involved{be it sum 1 listenin or the cause of the sound itself or even the so called conciousness of the universe} than the sound of a tree falling has meaning.

so if every living being was color blind color ceases to exist?
its a dumb question and anyone that says it doesn't exist unless someone senses it is living in a dream land.
Just because you close your eyes doesn't mean the world vanishes until next time you open them.

actually, colours DON'T exist....

all protons have the same colour, as do all neutrons and electrons.

our eyes just percieve the differences in what we know as colour

then whatever creates the perception of color activley produces the result of color, thus color exists

actually an infinite number of things exist that we cant percieve but then even all the things thatt WE THINK EXIST are just some form of translation of something by our senses, it all depends upon your perception.

things exist only in one's mind.

what i am getting is the activity of a tree falling that produces what we percieve to be sound is still occuring even though there is no device to pick up that stimuli does not mean that stimuli does not exist.
Like i said when you close your eyes it doesn't mean the world vanishes into a void just long enough to reapear when you open them back up.
its common sense

Colour doesn't truly exist, technically.

If you look at a white surface then cast a shadow on it, the shadowed area is no longer white. If you have a red, blue and green shirt in a closet, then turn all the lights off, they all become the same colour. Why? Because "colour" is only determined by what kinds of light that surface can take in.

On topic:

No, it doesn't make a sound. It can only become sound if we hear it, that's why it's called sound. If not, it's just random energy existing somewhere.

-AC

Originally posted by leonheartmm
things exist only in one's mind.

thats retarded. Thats the place were we decipher all the information we have picked up from the outside world, but the outside world is not dependant on the existants of minds. If every living organism was to die in one moment, the stars and planets and everything is space would still remain. They do not depend on living beings to exist. We are only aware of them because of our complex biological devices that can sense the world around us in its varios ways, smell, touch, taste, sight.

i suppose this argument is just too vague, specially when people dont look at it philosophically but look at it as scientific

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Colour doesn't truly exist, technically.

If you look at a white surface then cast a shadow on it, the shadowed area is no longer white. If you have a red, blue and green shirt in a closet, then turn all the lights off, they all become the same colour. Why? Because "colour" is only determined by what kinds of light that surface can take in.

On topic:

No, it doesn't make a sound. It can only become sound if we hear it, that's why it's called sound. If not, it's just random energy existing somewhere.

-AC

yes but that random energy does exist wether we pick it up or not, if there were ears there to experience it the data of that random energy would be converted into sound.

ok imagine this, what if u cud see any color outside the primary colours of light{or their mixtures}, even though its not physically posible, but what if our basic pallete of colours was completely different and we percieved non existing colours compared to the mixtures of red green and blue light. well then wed be discussin if THOSE colours really existed or not, we wudnt even be able to imagine any colors other than the ones we saw{just like we cant imagine ne NEW colour now other than the spectrum and its mixtures} wud that mean that the colours we percieve now as humans dont exist? it really is all down to perception. even things like dimensions and time or even existance are there because we percieve them to be there.

everything that exists exists. Its the limitation of our senses that we can't "see" everything that is already there.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it doesn't make a sound. It can only become sound if we hear it, that's why it's called sound. If not, it's just random energy existing somewhere.

-AC that's just like saying a ray of light isn't a ray of light until it reaches our eyes

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

No, it doesn't make a sound. It can only become sound if we hear it, that's why it's called sound. If not, it's just random energy existing somewhere.

-AC

Are you trying to say that high pitch sounds never existed until we discovered means of hearing it?

but then again a ray is a ray only because u percieve it to be that way, ur image of it depends on ur perception doesnt it. just like in a dream, nothing really exists but that doesnt stop u from thinking its theres.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but then again a ray is a ray only because u percieve it to be that way, ur image of it depends on ur perception doesnt it. just like in a dream, nothing really exists but that doesnt stop u from thinking its theres. no, a ray is always a ray.... the fact that it is intercepted by our optic nerve and translated into electrical impulses to the brain does not affect the fact that it was a ray before that.

dave123, everything u know or u think u know depends upon ur perception, even the science of the physical world that u read was just ur perception of what u thought were ink patterns on pages that SEEMED to make sense to u, thas called perception. the whole world or reality that u see or hear or feal is actually an image inside ur head.
{its another classic debate"whats more important the mind or the world"
and id have to say the mind, because thas the only way u actually are able to be on this forum and argue the point of a ray always being a ray.

a dream exists so far as the nutrons firing in your brain what your mind percieves as images. There is a physical reality to a dream. Its the physical chore of whatever your brain does to produce dreams. On the other hand a ray of light is outside of our minds to begin with. It is some form of ebergy, that energy exists as a "ray" no matter if there is any device that will take the data and convert it as what there minds sees it as a "ray" or not. These energies in there forms exist and are all around wether we sense them or not. They are not dependant on us and we do not change them, we only convert them into understandable forms in our minds.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
dave123, everything u know or u think u know depends upon ur perception, even the science of the physical world that u read was just ur perception of what u thought were ink patterns on pages that SEEMED to make sense to u, thas called perception. the whole world or reality that u see or hear or feal is actually an image inside ur head.
{its another classic debate"whats more important the mind or the world"
and id have to say the mind, because thas the only way u actually are able to be on this forum and argue the point of a ray always being a ray. I'm not arguing with you what a ray or a sound is.... I'm saying that it will exist whether I percieve it or not.

yes but where exactly did u come up with that brilliant conclusion moviejunkie?
from ur MIND ofcourse, given YOUR perception of things and then depending on YOUR{meaning ur conciousness's} reasoning power{which is made up of expiriences of ur previous perceptions of things}.

U SEE, U CANT BE FREE OF UR MIND, THAS A LIMITATION OF ALL NORMAL HUMANS.

can the birds hear....can the birds and the bees and the deer hear????....and further more how many angels can dance on the head of a pin???

"I'm not arguing with you what a ray or a sound is.... I'm saying that it will exist whether I percieve it or not."

u see thas what UR MIND IS TELLIN YOU.

So what are you trying to say? That if no one can see anything, it doesn't exist?

all im sayin is that u can not be sure of anything, even existance, anything's EXISTNACE itself is questionable cause existnace is just another phenomenon made up by the human mind because of it's ability to percieve.

Originally posted by leonheartmm


u see thas what UR MIND IS TELLIN YOU.

So basically your argument is - nothing in the world existed before humans were there to percive it?

I can think of 100 reasons why that is not only egocentric, but very wrong.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
all im sayin is that u can not be sure of anything, even existance, anything's EXISTNACE itself is questionable cause existnace is just another phenomenon made up by the human mind because of it's ability to percieve. the fact that i can percieve is proof enough for me that SOMEWHERE there is SOMETHING that is recieveing information.... so something exists

ahhhhh y do i even bother

You're not bothering.... you're brain only thinks you are

To all those (almost everyone) who didn't bother to read my post, or just plain didn't get it, here it is again:

No, it doesn't make a sound. It can only become sound if we hear it, that's why it's called sound. If not, it's just random energy existing somewhere.

To call it a sound is to say that we have heard it and as a result, determined it's a sound. It's a specific energy designed to be received by our senses that pick up audio. With no senses, it's just energy. If the tree falls and no one is around, the energy used to create the sound is made, but unless we're there to hear it, it can't be a sound.

Just knowing that it's happened doesn't mean it's as good AS hearing it. Yes Milla, the energy for that 'sound' existed, of course. However, unless we are around to hear and classify it as such, unless anyone or anything is around to classify it as such, it's existance is unknown, unacknowledgable and therefore, as GOOD as non-existant.

What Leonheart is saying isn't all that crap, he's just saying it in an extremely wrong way. There's loads of theories and exciting ways to talk about perception and how we might all perceive differently, but IF that happens to be true and we all see different things than one another but can only perceive what our individual minds know, then there is no point in debating, coz our minds would only be telling us what we can perceive. Not necessarily what someone else is saying.

-AC

So what you're saying that if we take 2 completely identical vibrations through the air, of which one is heard by a human ear, only that one is a sound because the human heard it? No, by definition, it is a "sound" as it has all the properties of a sound.

Originally posted by moviejunkie23
yes but that random energy does exist wether we pick it up or not, if there were ears there to experience it the data of that random energy would be converted into sound.

Even if there were no ears, you would have vibrations. And even if our ears didn't hear it, they insects would hear or sense it..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes Milla, the energy for that 'sound' existed, of course. However, unless we are around to hear and classify it as such, unless anyone or anything is around to classify it as such, it's existance is unknown, unacknowledgable and therefore, as GOOD as non-existant.

I think the animals would disagree.

Just because we do not know about it, it does not make it non existant. Applying that logic, the dinosours did not exist until we have discovered their bones and learned of their history.
By that logic, if we never discovered dinosours bones, or if we still haven't known about them, that would deny their existance.

Originally posted by dave123
So what you're saying that if we take 2 completely identical vibrations through the air, of which one is heard by a human ear, only that one is a sound because the human heard it? No, by definition, it is a "sound" as it has all the properties of a sound.

You can't see audio information because it isn't configurated to be picked up visually.

Again, missing the point. Having the properties of and actually being something are two very different things.

I have all the same body parts as Eddie Van Halen, same brain matter, same human organs. It doesn't mean I am an amazing guitarist because I have the properties to be one. I can only be one by actually BECOMING that.

How do you become a sound? By being heard. If absolutely nothing is around to pick up the energy made by the tree falling (and it can only be pick up via ears), then all that exists is the energy.

-AC

Of course it makes a sound.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I think the animals would disagree.

Just because we do not know about it, it does not make it non existant. Applying that logic, the dinosours did not exist until we have discovered their bones and learned of their history.
By that logic, if we never discovered dinosours bones, or if we still haven't known about them, that would deny their existance.

Yeah and I think the thread title states something also. When the thread creator specifies that there are animals in the forest at the time, I'll talk to you some more.

However, seeing as we're talking about (or at least I was) nothing or no one being around, I'll keep what I was saying.

And no, you're wrong. You're taking a step with my logic and then saying that's what I think. I'm not saying the energy doesn't exist am I? No.

-AC

No, you become a sound by having the frequency and wavelength of a sound, idiot. If a radio station broadbcasts, but no radios are turned on, those waves still exist.

Originally posted by dave123
No, you become a sound by having the frequency and wavelength of a sound, idiot. If a radio station broadbcasts, but no radios are turned on, those waves still exist.

Exactly.

Just like the energy created from the tree falling exists.

One foot in front of the other, you're almost there.

Idiot.

-AC

OK, if I have an orange.... it looks like an orange... feels like one, too... hell, it even bounces like one! But I never EVER taste it.... does that mean it isn't an orange?

Originally posted by dave123
OK, if I have an orange.... it looks like an orange... feels like one, too... hell, it even bounces like one! But I never EVER taste it.... does that mean it isn't an orange?

An orange's existance isn't made or broken on taste. Sound is needed to be heard for it to be a SOUND.

YES the PROPERTIES are there but unless the final step, in THIS case, is completed then it isn't a sound. Just a possible sound. A propellor, wings and engine aren't a plane.

-AC

No it isn't.... back to Milla's point, ultra-sound exists, but we don't hear it. The fact remains that there is still sound.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah and I think the thread title states something also. When the thread creator specifies that there are animals in the forest at the time, I'll talk to you some more.

However, seeing as we're talking about (or at least I was) nothing or no one being around, I'll keep what I was saying.

And no, you're wrong. You're taking a step with my logic and then saying that's what I think. I'm not saying the energy doesn't exist am I? No.

-AC

Ok, lets go back to your logic of sound, to make it simpler - and lets back to the beging and cooling of the earth.

There was noone around when the volcano's were erupting, when the rocks were braking - by your logic, the earth was silent then, no?

There was noone around, by theory, so a huge volcano erupting made no sound?

Originally posted by dave123
No it isn't.... back to Milla's point, ultra-sound exists, but we don't hear it. The fact remains that there is still sound.

That's nice.......but if a tree falls in the woods and nobody or nothing is around to hear it, does it make a sound? No. Does it create energy that could be received as a sound? Yes. Why isn't it a sound? Because nobody or nothing is receiving the energy to complete the cycle.

So instead of swerving from my points because you don't like them, keep on it.

-AC

*takes a seat*

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Ok, lets go back to your logic of sound, to make it simpler - and lets back to the beging and cooling of the earth.

There was noone around when the volcano's were erupting, when the rocks were braking - by your logic, the earth was silent then, no?

There was noone around, by theory, so a huge volcano erupting made no sound?

It made audio energy that could have been perceived as sound had anyone been around, as I stated a few posts back. Then a couple of posts after that. Then in my one above yours.

-AC

"Sound is a series of mechanical compressions and rarefactions or longitudinal waves that succesively pass one into another and propagate through materials (medium) that are at least a little compressible (solid, liquid or gas but not vacuum). In sound waves parts of matter (molecules or groups of molecules) move in a direction of the spreading of the disturbance (as opposite to transversal waves). The cause of sound waves is called the source of waves, e.g. a violin string vibrating upon being b"

Why take a seat after posting something that isn't yours and that you didn't come up with? Surely that's not the way to go out, posting quotes and stuff.

Annnnnyway,

If you look back at my posts and bothered reading them instead of taking bits and adding them together, you would understand my point.

All the components of a "sound wave" can be there, following?.....but if the final step (for viewers at home, that would be us hearing it) is not completed, it cannot be labelled a sound. Like I said, parts don't make a whole.

Having components don't MAKE it a sound. Like cake batter. It's called cake "batter" because it's not a cake yet. Nothing needs to be added, it's all there. The components. Unless the final step is completed (that being the cooking, akin to us hearing) it isn't a cake.

It all depends on what you do and do not attach the label of "a sound" to.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It made audio energy that could have been perceived as sound had anyone been around, as I stated a few posts back. Then a couple of posts after that. Then in my one above yours.

-AC

So then it was making a sound... what is sound if its not energy.

ok every1. if u wudv never heard of this forum or of this debate or of something called a computer or of electriciy or of somethin called an interaction with people, than wud all that you are doing on ur computer really exist, what if u had never even heard of this argument, then wud it exist{n u havent heard of the logical fact that "just because u cant see it doesnt mean its not there"} wud all this really exist?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So then it was making a sound... what is sound if its not energy.

No, it was making audio energy. Something that could be a potential sound. Now why is it only potentially a sound? Because no one can receive the energy created.

I'll use Dave's point. Radiowaves are sent out but no one turns on the radios. Can you still dance to the music? Somehow I don't think that's likely. However if you complete the last step in the cycle, turn the radio on. Boom, you have music. Because the waves were received and as a result, achieved their potential.

-AC

Sure, you and your crazy voodoo physics: a sound is a frequency moving through a medium - suppose it were to cause a glass to vibrate.... is that sufficient for it to be a sound? Or does a human have to hear it? Suppose it reached someone's ears, only the electrical impulse never went to the brain? Does that make it any less of a sound? NO! The sound still exists regardless of a human noticing it.

Seriously, if I give you a floppy disk, would you say there's no data on it because you can't read it, but a computer can? Of course it's still data, an ignorance of a human is not a basis for saying something does not exist.

Originally posted by dave123
an ignorance of a human is not a basis for saying something does not exist.

Absolutely right.

Originally posted by dave123
Sure, you and your crazy voodoo physics: a sound is a frequency moving through a medium - suppose it were to cause a glass to vibrate.... is that sufficient for it to be a sound? Or does a human have to hear it? Suppose it reached someone's ears, only the electrical impulse never went to the brain? Does that make it any less of a sound? NO! The sound still exists regardless of a human noticing it.

I stay away from voodoo, it gave me a rash last time.

No, the energy exists. You obviously take the choice to label audio energy, sound. Which is fine with me.

If you grab a handful of snow and let it out of your hand, between the time you let it go and the time it hits the floor, it could be come an infinite amount of shapes.....POTENTIALLY. Why doesn't it? Because nobody has made it happen. Just like the energy created by the tree falling. The energy floating around doesn't get anything added to it's fabric to become a sound, but the outside factor that IS the receipient determines whether the last step is complete. If there's no senses to hear it and pick it up, it's just energy.

Originally posted by dave123
Seriously, if I give you a floppy disk, would you say there's no data on it because you can't read it, but a computer can? Of course it's still data, an ignorance of a human is not a basis for saying something does not exist.

It's as good as having no data on it if I don't complete the final step, that being putting it into the computer. If I put that disk next to a blank disk, both never to be used, nobody would ever know the difference. It's all about completing the cycle which lets the potential sound BECOME a sound. YOU know the disk has data because you completed the cycle, I haven't. To me it's just a disk and it always will be unless I choose to just believe there is info on it. It requires me putting the disk in to actually see the info.

The topic is, if a tree falls and nobody or nothing can hear it, is a sound made? No. Is a potential sound made? Yes.

-AC

alright fine, believe what u wanna believe.

Gee, thanks Leo .

I was beginning to think I had to believe others for a second there.

-AC

No, a sound isn't determined by whether it is heard or not... what you are thinking of as a "sound" is the electrical impulse to the brain. If I were to electrocute someone's ear nerve thing and made them THINK they heard something, that isn't a sound. But by your definition, it is.... see?

Originally posted by dave123
No, a sound isn't determined by whether it is heard or not... what you are thinking of as a "sound" is the electrical impulse to the brain. If I were to electrocute someone's ear nerve thing and made them THINK they heard something, that isn't a sound. But by your definition, it is.... see?

You're saying a sound isn't determined by whether it's heard or not...and you truly believe that components make it a sound?

Let's go back to your radio analogy. Radiowaves in the air, nobody turns on the radio. The energy exists, the waves exist, correct?

Can you listen to them without fulfilling the role of the receiver and turning on the radio? Yes or no?

-AC

According to my dictionary 'sound' is: "1. what is heard 2. noise..." so then it would be fair to say that if noone hears it there is no sound.

Sound does not exist without something to hear it... there are vibrations in the air, yes, but without something to receive those vibrations there is no sound.

anyway, this is a rhetorical question not meant to be answered...

I tried putting it as simple as that, it didn't work to well.

Hence my above posts.

-AC

in answer to your question, a woodchuck could chuck 2 chordes of wood per minute if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

I think Dave123's definition of sound is incomplete. I say this because it looks as though it has been cut off thus being taken out of context. From what I can see in my dictionary, which in all honesty is not the complete authority of the world, sound "is the objective cause of hearing". I admit it is taken out of context just to add fuel to the flame. Based on this and my reasoning which I admit is not always sane, a sound was not made but vibrations did occur. Others may prefer to say that energy was displaced by the realization of the potential energy that was released into kinetic energy as one person may have observed by the debris or evidence of a fallen tree. Now the question may be do we need evidence of the occurence to say that it happened at all? I would like to say no because I would be too self centered to say that if something doesn't affect me then it doesn't happen. I like this question because it brings up many other issues . Just giving my two cents. Thanks for reading.

If a wood chuck could chuck wood , how much wood would a wood chuck chuck?

A wood chuck would chuck as much wood as a wood chuck could chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood.

You know give the wood chuck the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless of whether WE hear the tree falling or not a living creature around it (and most trees are in areas that have plenty of living creatures) would have heard it hit.

But that's a different question entirely You don't always hear a tree FALLING in the woods... you hear it hitting the ground

Not only does the tree not make a sound (human invented concept), but it doesn't even fall or even exist without human observation. Things can only happen and exist when we are aware of them.

This is about the same question as the dreaded " If a tree falls on a mime and no one is around to see it, does anyone care?"

The answer to both is no, not really, I'm doing fine thanks for asking or something to that effect.

This is when you forget about the dead thing called the mime and the fallen tree and leave.

*walks away forgetting entirely about the mangled corpses*

Originally posted by space
Not only does the tree not make a sound (human invented concept), but it doesn't even fall or even exist without human observation. Things can only happen and exist when we are aware of them.

OK then...If a tree falls on your house and nobody is around, did it make a sound?? Maybe it's just a human concept and the tree is still standing.. Arn't you glad the insurance agent wouldn't say it's only a concept?

Where did these living creatures come from? The idea is that no receivers are around.

-AC

But you as in humans cannot hear a dog whistle while obviously the dogs can so yuo could argu that doesnt exist althought you know it does just because you cant hear or see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist

What if a dog did not react to the dog whistle?
1. Is the dog deaf?
2. IS thewhistle broken
3. Do you test it on another dog?
4. IS the whistle still making a sound?

If you have to ask these questions
then you may realize that we are judging that the whistle makes a sound based on what we observe IE. the dogs reaction.

The whistle can be measure by scientific devices for its frequency waves.
Just like your brain waves or thought waves can, and we can't hear those either...

I don't agree with the statement that things only exist as we are aware of them. It's makes no sense at all.

Second of all, I personally don't think that the action of the tree falling and it's after effects would change wheither a person is present or not therefore making that person a nonessential factor. The process still occurs the same way therefore to say that it is an incomplete cycle is false because for it to be a cycle, our presence or lack of would have to somehow disrupt it's flow.
I beleive that a lot of people trying to back up their arguments with dictionnary definitions are moreso caught up in the semantics of things.

It's almost Medieval thinking to say that something doesn't exist just because you can't see or hear it. There was a time when people thought fire was evil, Hey, where did these eggs come from that I found under a bird...I didn't see the bird lay them...There comes that wet stuff falling from the sky again..Which god sent it? Hey how'd that bugger get in my nose..I didn't put it in there, so someone must of put it in while I was asleep, Oh maybe it was a spell from the witch next door...I better report them....

You don't have to view it for it to be real...

I could go either way on this question.

It depends on the definition of sound. If you classified a sound as something heard, then obviously, it did not make a sound.

If a sound is energy displaced, creating vibrations, then yes, it would make a sound.

However, if a sound is only a sound when it is heard, and therefore serving its purpose, then no, it would not make a sound.

You people do know that this is a question not meant to be answered but meant to raise more questions...

literally, I stand by what I said earlier... yes, vibrations in the air would still exist but without someone/something to recieve those vibration sound doesn't exist.

as for the dog whistle... of course sounds still exists there it's just too high pitched for humans to hear it. The dog still recieves the vibrations and translates them into sound.

Philosophically, I would generally say no as well. Out of sight out of mind... that's how most of us function I think. If we don't see/hear it we don't care about it. If something happens that doesn't affect us (directly or indirectly) we generally don't care about it...

If we don't know about it, it didn't happen at least not in our minds. Not for as far as we know, and basicly what we know is all that we have. There is nothing beyond what we know, and nothing that we don't know of excists. At least not for us, so no the tree didn't fall. The tree never excisted.

Its only there on the ground once we can see it

yes it would..
sound would still exsist even if it wasn't hear by anyone

okay you're allowed your opinion but at least back it up with something instead of just giving us a statement...

just becuz no one is around to hear it doesn't mean it doesn't make a sound... sound travels regardless wheather we want to hear it or not....the only way sound won't travel is if there is no atmosphere....

Originally posted by lemonsqueezy
yes it would..
sound would still exsist even if it wasn't hear by anyone

Are you so sure about that? Do you know the road excists when you can not see or hear it?

No you don't, logically you would assume it does, but thats what so interesting about philosophy, you can't be sure...

You ever the theory's that live is just a dream (no not the Matrix)? What if it is true, then we dream everything. We dream this forum for some stupid reason, we dream the computer the road when were on it, and everything else. That would mean that anything we see in a dream is not real just there when we want it to be there, or think its there...

You just don't know about it, logic would dictate that it does, i completly agree with you. But it is not sure, now you can argue that nothing is sure, and you are right about that. But it has nothing to do with this, this is a thread about excistence without anything to verify that it actually excists...

Let me ask you another question?

Is your mother still alive?

Assuming that she was last time you saw her, you will automaticly say yes.....

But how do you know? What if she died in those few seconds that you lost sight of her, seconds hours days whatever... You don't know do you? You just guess so...

(if your mother is dead, sorry, but just replace mother with somebody else that you know that you don't see at this moment)

The point here is, that we simply do not know for sure... Has the tree fallen on the ground? Perhaps perhaps not, or was it just always there... Without anything to verify it, it just doesn't excist... Therefor i at this time have to assume that my mother and father and sister are all nothing and i am the only one in the world... Only when i see somebody else, i will be sure that, that is not the case.

Sound is the waves traveling through the air. Even if you don't hear it its still sound waves. Even if we can't hear it it is STILL sound. If the tree fell in the woods would we it make a sound? not enough information actually did it actually hit the ground? did it get caught up in the surrounding trees? did it land in some moss? was it a large tree? its all really just relative to the information not given. Which is why its fun.
Fishy, a tree has to have grown to have fallen. it couldn't have ALWAYS been there or else it would never have grown into a tree. unless of course the tree grew sideways but then technically it never fell but there are some pretty tell tale signs of that one

if their is no one there to hear it...sound does not exist.

sound n. A sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by vibrations in the air or other medium.

If the tree falls, the air will vibrate, but if nothing with working hearing organs is there to interpret the vibrations as sound, it does not make a sound.

As I tried to establish pages back, but far be it from me to believe the people here could pick up on that.

Fell on deaf ears. No pun intended.

-AC

heh heh heh heh heh.

Adam, you're saying that there are no creatures capable of hearing anywhere in the woods at any given time?

Originally posted by Shadwofathought
Adam, you're saying that there are no creatures capable of hearing anywhere in the woods at any given time?

No, I am saying if there are no creatures capable of hearing in the woods at the time the tree falls, it does not make a sound.

yEAH I agree in that context.
The whole point of that is like a tricky SAT question.
For it to be classified as a sound an organ or instrument must pick it up.
It's like when they say "In space no one can hear you scream"
It's a true statement because space is a void, vacuum and sound cannot travel through it.
The same can be said here. No organ ie the ears or instrument picks up the sound vibrations but the action did occur and the tree does exist.
Again it's all stemming from semantics.

ok heres how i make sense of it, lets say that a tree does fall down in a forest, if no1 is there to listen to its sound, would it really have meant something to fall down? does it have any significance? would it have made a difference if it had or hadnt fallen down if no1 is there to listen? does it have any significance if theres no1 there to listen to it?

I think I've answered this already but...

no it doesn't make a sound. Generally speaking we humans, I think, are very self-involved. If something happens that doesn't affect us in some way it doesn't concern us.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
If something happens that doesn't affect us in some way it doesn't concern us.

You are partially correct!! Curiousity are still to be found in some humans...

hmm, yes I agree... but to what extent?

and still, aren't we only curious about things that concern us?

not in a sense... We can still be curious at spiderman's episode 3, couldn't we?

yes, because it affects us... it will possibly bring us enjoyment and so we are curious about it

hmm.. so you are saying that curiousity is in the branch of "affecting us"? ok... I get you...

Originally posted by buttafly
...and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I've debated this with my friend and because her favourite subject is SCIENCE, she argues that sounds still exists even though no one else can hear it. What are you thoughts on this??

I think that sound always exists because it is vibrations. And also, in the woods, there is always SOMETHING there to hear it, whether its a badger, some squirrels or lice, SOMETHING will hear it!

((i think Terry Pratchett commented on this in one of his books - can't remember which - but he basically said the same as me))

OMG Like such a dumb-ass tree would so like fall in a like forrest in the first place, like ya! anyway, it is so like stupid and that cos I really like the rainforest and stuff cos you get like animals and stuff, and you get like Winny the Pooh and like stuff and he is so like totally ya! and stuff, so I got to get one and stuff, and now I like only eat like non Dairy cos it is so like healthy and stuff and the ozone hole like totally ya! and I so don't want to sound like a spoff now so anyway, like totally stupid tree!

Originally posted by Phoenix
I think that sound always exists because it is vibrations. And also, in the woods, there is always SOMETHING there to hear it, whether its a badger, some squirrels or lice, SOMETHING will hear it!

((i think Terry Pratchett commented on this in one of his books - can't remember which - but he basically said the same as me))

No, sound is an interpretation of vibrations in the air. If there is nothing to interpret these vibrations as sound, then it is not sound.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, sound is an interpretation of vibrations in the air. If there is nothing to interpret these vibrations as sound, then it is not sound.

I heard it

First off, I don't know why people keep trying to answer this question, as someone already said, the question is rhetorical. It's meant to make you think, not meant to be answered.

Second, this questions is being asked in a philosophy forum, not a science forum. Whether or not a tree falling with no one around literally makes a sound or not is irrelevant. I think it's a question designed to make you think about human perception. As someone already said, humans tend to operate on out of sight out of mind. If they don't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Let's use an example near and dear to my heart to illustrate my point. Until Columbus "discovered" America it didn't exist to many people. Maps were drawn without it, the world was assumed flat etc. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. It did exist literally. It was there, there were people living on it. It existed. But, in the minds of most of the world, it did not. In their minds, there was no America.

So, I think what leonheart and others were trying to say is that while something may exist in the literal sense, if you don't perceive it, it doesn't exist in your mind. Did that make any sense to anyone but me?

The question should be 'if a tree falls in a forest with nobody around, does it fall, or even exist at all?'

You are assuming that the tree existed even though nobody observed it. So if it existed and fell in a forest, it would have made a noise.
If nobody was around to observe it, it didnt exist at all, and therefore cannot have fallen.

Originally posted by ms_erupt
First off, I don't know why people keep trying to answer this question, as someone already said, the question is rhetorical. It's meant to make you think, not meant to be answered.

Second, this questions is being asked in a philosophy forum, not a science forum. Whether or not a tree falling with no one around literally makes a sound or not is irrelevant. I think it's a question designed to make you think about human perception. As someone already said, humans tend to operate on out of sight out of mind. If they don't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Let's use an example near and dear to my heart to illustrate my point. Until Columbus "discovered" America it didn't exist to many people. Maps were drawn without it, the world was assumed flat etc. That doesn't mean it didn't exist. It did exist literally. It was there, there were people living on it. It existed. But, in the minds of most of the world, it did not. In their minds, there was no America.

So, I think what leonheart and others were trying to say is that while something may exist in the literal sense, if you don't perceive it, it doesn't exist in your mind. Did that make any sense to anyone but me?

I kinda get it... it's really clever, but I'm a very literal person... I say, if the tree is there, its there. I'm not that great at philosophising, I think it's interesting, but after a while I start thinking that I want to go off and do something useful!

Originally posted by ms_erupt
Did that make any sense to anyone but me?

Originally posted by peterKSL
"Things do exist". However for humans to know it, they have to use their 5 senses, to imput it into their brains... If a tree falls, no humans around, therefore humans interpret the event to the proof they know, which is the tree never existed. For animals however, which saw it, knows that the tree exist, because they have all the proof they need.

It's just the same as where london doesn't exist, for those who never been there or heard of it?


I made that statement long before you

OK...since we are still talking about the tree thing..It really depends if it's a pine tree.

Originally posted by peterKSL

I made that statement long before you Well, good for you. Would you like a cookie? Although I prefer cake myself.

i think it would make a sound but no one would here it so therefore it wouldent make a sound!

A sound is a detected vibration of the air. A sound is defined by being detected. A sound that is unrecorded, undetected, cannot be known (it is not a sound, by our definition).

i just got this quote off another philosophy related website. It got me thinking - if you placed a tape recorder in the forest, and left it so it was recording at the time the tree fell, would you expect to hear a sound when you played it back later? Personally I would, which gives me the answer to the original question.

However, if a sound is defined by its detection, then does the tree falling over only make a sound when the tape is played back - potentially some time after the event?

I think i just confused the hell out of myself.

OK...if we say that the tree fell only if you hear it or record the sound or vibration, then what else is happening when we are not aware?

well in that logic, then your wife cheating on you never happend because you never caught her

Originally posted by argen angel
well in that logic, then your wife cheating on you never happend because you never caught her

Cheating is characterized by being unfaithful to a spouse or lover. There is no relationship between the awareness of cheating and whether or not it is.

Sound however, is a perception of vibrations in the air. Therefore, if there is nothing to perceive these vibrations as sound, then it is not sound.

if you wanna get technical sound and heat would be the same thing...
(heat is the vibration of atoms)

and i was just saying that as a joke... i wasn't being serious

we will never know this because in order for it not to make a sound if noones around no one could be around to tell

Originally posted by peterKSL
not in a sense... We can still be curious at spiderman's episode 3, couldn't we?

im almost positive its gonna have the hobgoblin in it

I think this is a question that plays on mans ego. Are we arrogant to belive that the universe can exist only because we exist, or, is is just possible that it continue to exist even without us. Who knows? ... More important i think, If a tree falls in the forest and noone is around to hear it, how will it affect you?

But thats like saying do people exist when noone can see them

No, no, you're all wrong.

The correct answer is - Who gives a shit?

Well... what I just said is based on science... never heard of quantum mechanics !?

Originally posted by Atlantis001

. Science tells us that the "molecules" that are vibrating to create the sound are not even molecules.

The sub particles are alive and always changing, acting and reacting.

well i can see this is a childs riddle the answers is real simple


(THE perception or reception of sound has no bearing on its transmission.


reception is only an means to test the transmission
and
perception is only a means to understand it


thus makes no difference if you are deaf

a fine example of this is an artist known as beethoven who was completely deaf but we all hear his music he could not so did it make a difference to the music he made


a fine example of the vision varient is if i cant see you you cant see me well its is not true.cant belive it took so long to answer and nobody got it

ps the answer was in the origional question


IF A TREE SHOULD FALL IN THE WOODS AND NOBODY IS AROUND TO HEAR IT DOES IT MAKE A SOUND

if nobody was around to HEAR the (sound made) does it make a sound

well yes cos it did according to the origional question i suppose thats what ya would call 2 easy solutions

Of course if ya wanna be padantic ya could get technical but its a simple question and doesnt need a dictionary to answer it

not to make a fool out of everyone just pointing out

just to add one last point everything you see or heard is percieved by a persons brain or your brain

which means you could be seeing things lol
just a thought but what if everybody sees somthing that isnt there, is it there? if every one can see it then surely. Its all an illusion

Originally posted by buttafly
...and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? I've debated this with my friend and because her favourite subject is SCIENCE, she argues that sounds still exists even though no one else can hear it. What are you thoughts on this??

Yes, put a video camera with a mic in the woods and have a tree fall..no one is around to hear it but if you review the tape you will hear the tree falling. Case closed.

If a deaf person falls down in the woods and no one is around to hear him cry for help did he really make a sound?

Originally posted by JoeyLewis
If a deaf person falls down in the woods and no one is around to hear him cry for help did he really make a sound?

Only if he's wearing a sound alert.....

Why we cannot say that Santa Claus exist?

Because no one has ever heard or saw him, just like the sound of the trees in the woods.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sound of the trees, and Santa Claus are perfect analogies in my example above. If we can say that the sound is real, then we can assume that Santa Claus is real as well.

so because the hermit hasn't been seen he doesn't exist? if you stayed in a cave for all your life you don't exist? How about the vast majority of the world. They will never see you, therefore to them you don't exist? The tree falling still makes a sound. It stand to reason that there are always organisms around and most of them can "hear" or "feel" a tree falling therefore it has been received by something, just maybe not something that can let us know.

By the way, Santa doesn't exist in the way we think because come Christmas we have no magical gifts that no one knows where they came from. Might he exist somewhere, sure.

A morbidly obese man never sees his feet :-) does that mean they don't exist?

THE

TREE

MAKES

A

SOUND

Originally posted by debbiejo
THE

TREE

MAKES

A

SOUND

Ditto!


And there is ALWAYS something to hear it, whether it be a badger, a sparrow or a gnat!

Originally posted by Shadwofathought
so because the hermit hasn't been seen he doesn't exist? if you stayed in a cave for all your life you don't exist? How about the vast majority of the world. They will never see you, therefore to them you don't exist? The tree falling still makes a sound. It stand to reason that there are always organisms around and most of them can "hear" or "feel" a tree falling therefore it has been received by something, just maybe not something that can let us know.

By the way, Santa doesn't exist in the way we think because come Christmas we have no magical gifts that no one knows where they came from. Might he exist somewhere, sure.

A morbidly obese man never sees his feet :-) does that mean they don't exist?

None of the things you listed are perceptions. Likewise, they all exist whether or not their existence is perceived.

Sound is an interpretation of air vibrations; it is a perception. If nothing is their to interpret air vibrations as sound, there is no sound.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE

Sound is an interpretation of air vibrations; it is a perception. If nothing is their to interpret air vibrations as sound, there is no sound.

Not true....it still makes a sound....has nothing to do with what hears it..

I can sneeze in my house, and if no one hears it cause they're not home..did it make a sound...even if I was deaf....even if I was comatose?

And what about the animals? They must sense the fall, maybe even hear it, or when you go into the forest there would be all these dead moose and chip munks crushed! Crushed I say!

Originally posted by debbiejo
Not true....it still makes a sound....has nothing to do with what hears it..

I can sneeze in my house, and if no one hears it cause they're not home..did it make a sound...even if I was deaf....even if I was comatose?

Incorrect. Nowhere did I state that sound is dependent upon what detects it. Rather, I stated that sound is dpendent upon being detected. If it is not detected, it is categorically not a sound.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Incorrect. Nowhere did I state that sound is dependent upon what detects it. Rather, I stated that sound is dpendent upon being detected. If it is not detected, it is categorically not a sound.


But when you use the word "detected" that is stating being felt or heard in someway.


the act of detecting something; catching sight of something
the investigation of criminal activities to determine the perpetrator; "detection is hard on the feet"
the perception that something has occurred or some state exists; "early detection can often lead to a cure"
the detection that a signal is being received


Just because it's not being detected doesn't mean it didn't make a sound

Originally posted by debbiejo
Just because it's not being detected doesn't mean it didn't make a sound

Actually, that's exactly what it means.

For some reason I am reminded of the post modern historians, one of whom went on about "If a Grecian Urn is buried in a desert, undiscovered, unknown, does it actually exist?" To be honest I don't like him. Bit of a fool. Still...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Actually, that's exactly what it means.

Only through receptors..Not all things have receptors and still the action
does occure....You must be talking about things in a vacme then....

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Actually, that's exactly what it means.

Confused....are we agreeing?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Confused....are we agreeing?

I think so.IMO if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it it is still a sound,even though no one heard it. As long as the air vibrates to make the sound it is there fore a sound.