Any new, old Metallica fans..?

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Cinemaddiction
While I was one of those who claimed Metallica had sold out, the documentary really opened my eyes to what happened to them as musicians and as PEOPLE, which is what should really be considered first and foremost. I've come to understand and accept the "progression", as some would call it, of the band, and that perhaps they don't want to make the same music over and over again? They may have toned their stuff down a little over the years, but you can still rock out to it, regardless. Besides, how many other bands at 40 yrs plus do you see putting on speed metal shows?

The road takes a toll on us all, especially musicians, and so I ask who are we to question the bands motiviations and inspirations for changing their tune, so to speak? I've made that realization, and am ashamed to have been so pigheaded to be so prejudiced and bitter over it. It was more or less out of anger that I harboured such negative opinions. I've been a Metallica fan for a long time, I accepted the change when "Load" came around and dug it as well, but the new "Who the hell are we?" feel of St. Anger really pissed me off, so I personally strayed away for the past 2 years.

Alls I can say is that while the new material isn't my cup of tea so much, I'm re-dedicating myself to the band as a fan, and hope that while this little message will go unappreciated, perhaps some of you will understand what I've come to understand, stop being so bitter over a band, and find happiness in the fact that the guys are still AROUND after all these years, and rockin' out.

A little better sense of direction, a little more patience on their behalf, and I think they'll pick up right where they left off. thumb up

Alpha Centauri
You mean the DVD you very nearly cast into the firey depths of Hades for being a selfish and arrogant development?

I'm glad you have decided to actually still support them though. Like I said, rather have them sober and making average music than dead and making none.

Good for you.

-AC

Lana
Damn straight thumb up

SlipknoT
I still hate the new music, and still think they sold out.

MetallicaT
Originally posted by SlipknoT
I still hate the new music, and still think they sold out.

well its a good thing no one cares what you think then...

SlipknoT
Originally posted by MetallicaT
well its a good thing no one cares what you think then... Stop trying to defend your shitty band with generic overused comebacks wink

MetallicaT
saying that they "sold out" isn't generic? plz....

how did they sell out man? cuz of the napster thing? cuz they made a few songs that you don't particularly like?

tabby999
i don't mind St Anger, sure its far from their best cd but it still shows they have some fire in their bellys as far as making cool music

Darth Revan
I watched most of Some Kind of Monster last night, and I have to say it changed my mind too. And now I kinda feel sorry for them... And Dave Mustaine... erm

Lana
I haven't seen it...but then again, I never thought they sold-out.

Is it actually good? Like, a worthwhile watch? If it is I might try to catch it on VH1.

Darth Revan
Originally posted by Lana
I haven't seen it...but then again, I never thought they sold-out.

Is it actually good? Like, a worthwhile watch? If it is I might try to catch it on VH1.

It was on VH1 last night, I don't know if they'll play it again any time soon confused

But in any case, I think it's worth a look. And I forgot to mention in my last post that I no longer think Lars Ulrich is as much of a pompous, greedy ******* as I used to.

tabby999
theres been lots of people saying its great and lots of people saying it sucks balls, you'll have to watch it and make up your mind on that one

Lana
They've been playing it a ton, I think they just played it earlier tonight.

I'll check it out then.

Darth Revan
Ah. In that case, you should definitely try to see it. Changed my perspective, and I was never really mad at them in the first place.

Cinemaddiction
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You mean the DVD you very nearly cast into the firey depths of Hades for being a selfish and arrogant development?

Yessir. I'll be the first to admit that I based my opinion of the movie soley on my feelings. It wasn't until later that the documentary wasn't their idea, and that it wasn't ever really intended to begin with.

Originally posted by MetallicaT
saying that they "sold out" isn't generic? plz....

how did they sell out man? cuz of the napster thing? cuz they made a few songs that you don't particularly like?

Protecting what is yours, Lars was right in the Napster fiasco. When I claimed they sold out, it was because of the total overhaul of the band I loved and respected as metal gods. Short hair, and an alternative rock approach is what pissed me off at first, but I grew to like it. Even S&M was a fantastic venture. I just didn't realize, until after seeing the documentary, Metallica aren't a band that want to be cemented in one period, one time, or one movement. The music is reflective of how they feel right then and there and that now is clear to me. "St. Anger", however, is a totally different departure, and for those who can't appreciate people's personal changes, epiphanies, and motivations will always fall back on the "sell out" cry.

I think Metallica are still true to themselves, which is the way it should be. "Love it or leave it" is another phrase that really came to mind after digesting the documentary. If you have loved the band for this long, there's got to be something you can find to like in their newest incarnation. They'll make music for themselves first and foremost, and FANS have to learn to accept that. I finally did. If Metallica were looking to "sell-out" with "St. Anger" in particular, they failed. One song made it to radio. "Black Album" was just Metallica being introduced into the mainstream, and it's not their faults of their music is loved, you know? Every single artist who ever signs a record contract could be considered a sell out. In that same regard, people also have to eat, buy clothes, and pay their bills. If they chose to do it by sharing their passion, so ****ing what?

Originally posted by Darth Revan
I watched most of Some Kind of Monster last night, and I have to say it changed my mind too. And now I kinda feel sorry for them... And Dave Mustaine... erm

Dave Mustaine is horribly misunderstood, and I totally sympathize with him now, more than ever. It's just a shame that everyone thinks he's bitter and resentful when it's the exact opposite, and that all he wanted was a second chance. What's more, Lars regrets it, as he probably should. Same goes for Jason Newsted. James pushed him out because of his insecurities, and that's equally as shameful. Newsted was probably the biggest metal influence left in that band.

Originally posted by Lana


Is it actually good? Like, a worthwhile watch? If it is I might try to catch it on VH1.

It's an incredible documentary. I've seen it 3 times now, having bought it, and it never gets old. That's somewhat unusual, a documentary with re-watch value. The extra clips, being 41 unused scenes are equally as entertaining and valuable.

Originally posted by Darth Revan
I

But in any case, I think it's worth a look. And I forgot to mention in my last post that I no longer think Lars Ulrich is as much of a pompous, greedy ******* as I used to.

I never understood why the everyone's general perception of him was so negative. Pertaining to Napster, he's a business man, and I respect that. He's a lot more deeper a thinker than I ever would have given him credit.

But, like I said, the documentary is really good, and answers a lot of questions for those who feel as if they have been betrayed. Answers, answers, answers. All I ever wanted. It just takes a little understanding. It's just so surreal to see Metallica for who they are.

Real people.

Alpha Centauri
They didn't sell out and if you think they did then you're a moron with a delusional sense of entitlement.

Simple as.

I saw the band play live during St. Anger tour and they tore the place down.

They rule.

With regards to Napster, nobody likes getting ripped off and they were protecting what was theirs. Regardless of the fact that it's art first and foremost, it IS their job.

-AC

MetallicaT
Originally posted by Cinemaddiction

Dave Mustaine is horribly misunderstood, and I totally sympathize with him now, more than ever. It's just a shame that everyone thinks he's bitter and resentful when it's the exact opposite, and that all he wanted was a second chance. What's more, Lars regrets it, as he probably should..

Dave used to be a real ass
i have a video of him saying this at one of his concerts...
"There 4 legendary metal bands, oh wait five" then he counts down on his fingers:
"1. megadeth
2. Slayer
3. Anthrax
4. Exodus
5. Metallica"

But he did it so Metallica was his middle finger then he yelled "**** YOU METALLICA!."

but...after Dimebag's death he posted on megadeth.com apologizing to metallica and slayer for the things he's said ...he also apologized to metallica/megadeth fans, saying that he'll never say another unkind word about the 22yr long feud with metallica.

Deathblow
Selling out...that phrase is so often used by stupid kids just because a band they like changes their sound.

I never thought they sold out, I do however believe that everything since the black album has been awful, and no documentary is going to swing me on that. I doubt I'll watch it though, Metallica, like Smashing Pumpkins, are one band I've detached myself from on a personal level, because it's all drama drama drama between people I really don't like very much, and I'm just not interested anymore.

BOPRecruit 16
i wouldn't say officially that i'm a metallica fan now, but i do like some of their songs like 'fuel', 'nothing else matters', 'die die, my darlin', 'frantic', 'some kind of monster', and so forth.

Korri
Hello! zorro

Cinemaddiction
Originally posted by Deathblow
Selling out...that phrase is so often used by stupid kids just because a band they like changes their sound.

From past experiences, you can only draw but so many conclusions when I band flips the script out of no where, and they really don't have a reason other than "experimenting", etc. Bands don't come right out and say that they aren't feeling such and such a style anymore, or make their motivations real clear. Why they don't necessarily "owe it" to people, it would be nice to know what's going on in their heads. That's all. I'm pretty well versed in the music industry, and older, so I'd like to think, and I still held the same opinion until I got a better idea/explanation. It's too bad it took this long to get the story straight, could have saved me from spewing a lot of ill will.

Korri
Originally posted by Darth Revan
I watched most of Some Kind of Monster last night, and I have to say it changed my mind too. And now I kinda feel sorry for them... And Dave Mustaine... erm

I dont feel sorry for Dave, he is a good musician but what happened back in 1982 was his own doing and he has to accept that instead of taking it out on Lars & James by making sh!tty little immature comments to make him seem like a hardass, and then he has the cheek to turn round and ask for sympathy??

the guy has issues...

botankus
...And Justice for All was an excellent album.

And let me just sum up the follow-up album by mentioning when you get to track #2, Sad But True, well, that pretty much explains itself.

amity75
All megabands go through artistic low points. Maybe St Anger was Metallicas. No band can be expected to produce classic album after classic album, even Led Zep didn't do that. Metallica will find form again and I await their next album with much anticipation and faith.

Red Superfly
I'm still a fan. I don't like St. Anger though.

It's wierd, everyone says Metallica totally sold out on St.Anger. How? It certainly didn't sound like it had high production values. I prefer the cleaner cuts of the black album, where it sounded polished. I couldn't give a flying f**k how much was spent on it, or how much they were paid, I just liked the clean sound of traditonal Metallica stuff.

St Anger sounded like it was recorded in a garbage can. Too drony and lacked that crisp Metallica crunch I was used to.

Metallica are cool though, I'll never think they are sellouts.

For Metallica to produce such high quality stuff for so long, and then have a slight mishap with their latest album, is no reason for everyone to jump on them, forgetting all of the GOOD stuff they have done.

They are only human. St Anger is the only album I haven't liked. Now consider how many albums they've done before that. One bad album out of tons is amazing. And people who say everything after the black album is crap, well I just disagree. I have only ever though St Anger was a mere "dip" in standards. They can still redeem themselves.

Their good stuff is still there, they can still play it. They rock.

Alpha Centauri
Selling out is plain and simple, don't know why it's so misunderstood.

If you sacrifice your integrity or morals to do something you didn't really wanna do, in exchange for exposure or money, that's selling out. Well, one offs CAN be overlooked. When it happens continuously, that's it.

They didn't sacrifice their morals or integrity. They changed.

-AC

Korri
I would also like to remind you all you that your judging this on one album out of what eight studio albums..?


Hello, get over it people...

LifeIsKillingMe
i've loved Metallica for as far back as i can rememeber and nothing can change that, not even St Anger

Lana
Originally posted by Korri
I would also like to remind you all you that your judging this on one album out of what eight studio albums..?


Hello, get over it people...

No shit...

botankus
More like every album after ...And Justice For All.

Korri
In your opinion....maybe??

but i dont give jack sh!t about your opinion my friend...

Deathblow
In my opinion, everything since the black album has been off. But like I've said before, five fantastic albums is enough to redeem any band.

Alpha Centauri
Especially since they haven't really done anything wrong.

-AC

Korri
Exactly, they have the potential to make good music, they did in the past and in my opinion they still do and will do in the future..

Alpha Centauri
Don't expect another Master of Puppets and you'll be just fine.

Then...if they do manage it, you'll be more than pleasantly surprised.

-AC

Korri
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Don't expect another Master of Puppets and you'll be just fine.

Then...if they do manage it, you'll be more than pleasantly surprised.

-AC

you should write the metallica bible Mr. AC, really you should droolio

Alpha Centauri
I wrote THE bible you know.

-AC

Korri
Oh yeah, it makes sense..

Lana
Originally posted by Korri
Exactly, they have the potential to make good music, they did in the past and in my opinion they still do and will do in the future..

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Don't expect another Master of Puppets and you'll be just fine.

Then...if they do manage it, you'll be more than pleasantly surprised.

-AC

yes indeed. The reason so many people dislike their new stuff is because they ARE expecting another Master of Puppets. While I love that album (definitely my favorite Metallica album), I'm not comparing everything else they've released to it, so therefore I'm not completely disappointed in everything they've done since. If they ever release another album of that quality, it'll be ****ing awesome, but I'm not going to sit here and wait for it to happen, and b!tch and whine that their new stuff sucks and they sold out.

Deathblow
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Especially since they haven't really done anything wrong.

-AC

Pssssh. IYO. It's normal for bands to lose their touch after a while, in fact it's common. You seem to think that everyone else is wrong by thinking Metallica have turned crappy, but the reason it's such a popular reason is because, well, they have. And I never go into albums hoping for a repeat of past successes, in fact I set my standards as low as possible when listening to new material from bands I really like in order to avoid disappointment as much as possible should the worst happen (and it has i.e. Trompe Le Monde, Machina, End Of Heartache). Despite this, the last 20 years of Metallica stuff has consistently disappointed me to the point I dread new albums. Believe me, I'd love to support Metallica now, they've been very important to me in the past, but if the music doesn't interest me, I can't.

Alpha Centauri
Yeah but despite all what you just said, doesn't disprove anything I've said does it?

All that proves is that they now make music you don't like. It doesn't prove that they've done anything wrong. Which was, of course, the point I made.

If With Teeth is shit, it doesn't mean Trent has done anything wrong. Because he hasn't. Like Metallica haven't by making music you dislike.

-AC

Deathblow
My uncle was the biggest Metallica head in history, to the point he wouldn't mention James Hetfield's name without making the cross sign over himself. He, of all people, despises everything Metallica have done post Justice For All, even the black album (which I like). You don't lose a massive percentage of your fanbase if you're doing nothing wrong.

And don't jinx With Teeth no

Alpha Centauri
Metallica haven't done anything wrong, factually. They started making music that a large percentage of their fanbase don't like. They also started making music that alot of their fanbase liked. What happened was unfortunate for them, not wrong. Radiohead weren't wrong when they made Kid A, APC weren't wrong when they made eMOTIVe. Alot of people hated Kid A and alot hated eMOTIVe. That's just their choice, doesn't mean the bands are doing anything 'wrong'.

-AC

Cinemaddiction
Originally posted by Korri
I would also like to remind you all you that your judging this on one album out of what eight studio albums..?


Hello, get over it people...

But in retrospect, speaking on behalf of those who think/thought they had sold out, it's been a natural progression/degression, depending on how you look at it. They've taken the liberty of experimenting with their music in an EXTREMELY touchy genre, being metal. There are plenty of heavy metal elistists, myself included, who are creatures of habit, and don't take too well to change in things that were fine they were they were. That said, apparently Metallica themselves didn't want to be stuck in one "form", and the change is apparent.

"Black Album" was just beefy, slowed down, and James really focused on vocals on that album. It was a pretty big departure from their thrash days. As much as I love "AJFA" it was a really "thin" album, especially considering Newsted's bass tracks were recorded around 1 or 2 decibels, lol.

"Load" was their first album in 5 years, and a lot had changed since then. Grunge broke, gangster rap all but died, alternative/college rock was big. It was more of a "mature" Metallica. Hard to digest after 12-13 years of speed metal and really pretentious, deep lyrics. "Reload" was more of the same thing, and I like them both immensely.

"S&M" was just genius, and anyone who can't appreciate the artistic merit behind the whole gimmick shouldn't consider themselves a fan of music. It was almost seamless musical integration.

"Garage Inc." There was nothing wrong there, either. The old $9.98 cassette with new covers. Awesome set.

Then came more fuel for the haters when their first 5 albums were re-released as "Gold Discs", and retailed at $50 a pop. That, even today, is ridiculous. I don't know if that's Elektra's doing or what, but $40 over retail for a slightly better, digitally remastered version of their albums? Give me a break. "Summer Sanitarium", and their touring partners only could have made old school fans even more pissed. Metallica w/ Linkin Park? I'm an L.P. fan, personally, and I guess it's just a sign of the times. It's almost like seeing Metallica as an opening act, god forbid we ever see that day.

Finally, "St. Anger". Like I said before, it's a very confused sounding album. The title track can be picked apart and you can find three easily identifiable directions for the band, and none of them mesh. A metal opening, twangy, alternative verses, rap-metal choruses, and a punk/metal bridge. Did you see their outfits, too? I think it was Metallica trying a little too hard to say "Hey! We're back!", dressed up like they're going to see Limp Bizkit.

The whole feel of the album sounded cheap. From the open of "Frantic", it sounds like the whole thing was produced in a cardboard box, and no care even went into the acoustics. Another thing, it seems like Lars had A LOT of pull in it, because his experimental drumming really ruined a lot of otherwise great tracks, IMO. They entered the studio to make an album, totally unprepared. James I'm sure had some lyrics, but they didn't step in and just hammer it all out like they used to. But, I said before, suggesting they sold out with "St. Anger" is ridiculous, and I hope that people don't have that opinion.

Some people just can't accept change, evolution, a personal conviction to mix things up, and until they do, if ever, they'll just harbor the same uninformed opinion, and it's a shame. Hell, even The Beatles went wayward towards the end, as did The Doors.

The times, they are a'changin'.

Deathblow
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Metallica haven't done anything wrong, factually. They started making music that a large percentage of their fanbase don't like. They also started making music that alot of their fanbase liked. What happened was unfortunate for them, not wrong. Radiohead weren't wrong when they made Kid A, APC weren't wrong when they made eMOTIVe. Alot of people hated Kid A and alot hated eMOTIVe. That's just their choice, doesn't mean the bands are doing anything 'wrong'.

-AC

I understand wrong is a very strict term to be used on an opinion-based subject like music, but surely making music your fans, the people that like your music, dislike is wrong to some extent? I mean if an album is badly recieved by the fans, the people you are trying to connect with, it can hardly be called a success.

Cinemaddiction
Fans have to realize the music is made to please the band themselves, first and foremost. I think Metallica has more so been about pleasing themselves first, musically, then fans will latch on. Their fanbase is steady, regardless of the turn over, because as mediocre as the new album is, it's still (IMO) better than 3/4's of the shit on the radio.

The whole "sell-out" issue has two sides to take into consideration. Side A, with "Load", did they change their style knowing that no matter how different, they can rely on their own namesake to make money? Side B, did they just honestly feel compelled to make different music, look to please themselves first, fans second, throw caution to the wind and see what happens?

Tapping into the alternative/adult rock market wasn't a stretch. 1/2 of Metallica's fanbase when they started are mostly parents/adults now, anyway. I don't think they consciously made their music more accessible by toning it down, but I do see where some might think that, then try and get back their old fans with "St. Anger".

Like I said though, I can understand their changes in attitudes and approach to their own music. It's like re-arranging a bedroom in a house you've lived in all your life. You're not going to keep a Cindy Crawford poster or your old Van Halen tour shirt tacked up in your room when you're 28 and married.

Maybe they outgrew their own genre? Face it, they aren't 18 anymore, lol.

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Deathblow
I understand wrong is a very strict term to be used on an opinion-based subject like music, but surely making music your fans, the people that like your music, dislike is wrong to some extent? I mean if an album is badly recieved by the fans, the people you are trying to connect with, it can hardly be called a success.

You're continually missing the point. Success or not, Metallica haven't done anything wrong. They made some music their fans don't like, that's not wrong, it's just that the music was different enough that they didn't like it. Making music and having your FANS not like it, isn't wrong, just unfortunate. However, considering that having your fans like it isn't the primary goal, I don't consider it wrong or bad at all. St. Anger has sold ALOT of records, alot of people like it, including the band themselves. So as well as being a commercial success (which doesn't matter really), the album to many, is a success also.

-AC

Deathblow
Oh please, missing the point how? I know exactly what you're trying to say, and i just gave an alternative answer.

Fact of the matter is, losing half your fans isn't right, is it? So it kind of leaves us with one option here. Wrong may be a strict word, but seeing as you're the one who brought it up in the first place, I'll just go with fallen from grace.

Cinemaddiction
They did something "wrong", in the marketability sense, by changing their tune, so to speak. Maybe that speaks even stronger for those who argue that they did it for themselves, and not money, in the first place.

I don't think someone's personal conviction to do something is wrong, if it makes them happy in the end?

Alpha Centauri
Originally posted by Deathblow
Oh please, missing the point how? I know exactly what you're trying to say, and i just gave an alternative answer.

Fact of the matter is, losing half your fans isn't right, is it? So it kind of leaves us with one option here. Wrong may be a strict word, but seeing as you're the one who brought it up in the first place, I'll just go with fallen from grace.

What do you mean losing half your fans isn't right? It's neither right nor wrong. In this case the two options are fortunate and unfortunate. Fortunate would be keeping them, unfortunate would be losing them. They achieved the latter.

Wrong and right don't enter into it. They haven't committed any wrong. They made choices with unfortunate results, mostly in a marketing sense. No 'wrong' involved.

-AC

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