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Who would God say are His true followers???

1. Christians who claim to be his followers or

2. Anyone who isn't a believer in Christ, but who do exhibit the fruits of the spirit.


THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRITS ARE.

Love, patience, self control, mercy, long suffering, humility, compassion, kindness, charity, not boastful, not delighting in evil,...etc...

I would say the latter, but I know one in here who would reject that answer

is that me?


Uh, but what about Christians who claim to be his followers also exhibit the fruits of the spirit?

no it is not you

doesnt exist.

ok good


how so?

As in you've never seen any Christian that exhibit the fruits?

always condeming that lot

Well I'm a Christian and most of my friends think I am pretty nice; of course you'd have to meet me and judge for yourself but you know.

I also know Christians that are fruity, but I know many that are judgmental...It's my way or you are going to hell...And that type of thinking was implemented by Constantine when he chose what books would be included in the Bible...Why would he only include those that would condemn people? As I was in the Baptist type churches, I also was judgmental too...I'm beginning to wonder if religion is a good thing?

Yeah I know what you mean. I don't agree with the hell fire and brimstone screaming kinda stuff. Jesus was about love, not being pissed off all the time.

With Constantine and all, you have to remember that it is the orthodox church. They are very strict. I don't know very much about the constantine thing which you are referring to. It doesn't sound right though because he was the one to first legalize Christianity in Rome. But then again, I think he also forced many to believe in God.
I'm a little shady on that part of history.

Constantine was really a pagan who wanted power. He knew how to bring all the religions together by bringing in the pagans under the name of Christ. He used the same model, but changed the name of the god. The early Christians knew this but had no choice but to go along with it. Forced worship, and the pagans didn't like it because it was the same and they knew it. They like the old names better. As time went on people forgot about what happened. The Catholic church became very powerful and very violent if you didn't except their teachings...
I think the original sect of Christians were gnostic, and the church tried to wipe them out too..Constantine's church symbols, and rituals, were taken from pagan rites, also baptism, man (Jesus) as god, works to be saved. They included only the scriptures that would suit the church and left others out, such as other saying of Paul. etc..

Wait I'm confused, are you talking about Constantine I who was the founder of Byzantium and all? Who had the vision of the cross at the Battle of Milvian Bridge?
Cuz from what I've learned he wasn't really that bad. And there were a lot of different constantine you must remember.
Well I'm still confused.

Yes, That's the guy...He murdered his wife and child..We weren't told all the truth...He really wasn't what the church portrayed him as...

Yeah I read about that a moment ago. Dang. Looks like I'm gonna have to get a new hero. j/k lol

Originally posted by debbiejo
I also know Christians that are fruity,

Well, gay Christians are indeed plenty.



I pick the latter. I believe that God is merciful, and will
ultimately rewards those who are good in thoughts and
deeds, even if they know not Him.

Me Too. That would indeed be a great God...

The later coresponds with some facts of buddhism. Although we do not believe in a deity or a god who has created us all, those fruits of spirit are in our belief - Buddhism states that anyone believing in anything or worshiping anything, if fundamentaly has those qualities will achieve the higher realm of rebirth and eventually brake off from Samsara.

Thats just a little explanation from my point...

But I also vote the latter.

I feel religions are screwing things up and thats not what God had in mind when Jesus was talking...or any other religious leader. I feel that Pastors can be some of the worst when it comes to condemning other people. If God is love then anything negative that comes out of anybodies mouth is not from God...It can't be..And it's a lie to say it is!

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The later coresponds with some facts of buddhism. Although we do not believe in a deity or a god who has created us all,

Then where do you believe we came from?

we are a product of the evolution earth went trough which no deity was involved in

And what proof do you have to back this up?

I came with an argument that there is no god, and that argument dont need proof and it stands until proven wrong........which nobody on this planet is capable of doing

Well yes and no because you would have to have every single person on the planet agreeing with something to make it a universal truth but that goes full circle.

But you came with the argument there is no God; so I say "where did we come from" and you say evolution but you wont back it up with anything.

finti is a product of algae...

that brings up a good point

During the civil war do you think anyone would have the guts to say that Robert E. Lee evolved from a monkey?

evolution speaks for itself, I dont know how it started but it did and it wasnt no god who triggered it due to my earlier argument that htere is no god.


if they had knowledge of that idea of evolution, sure they would

better that than have faith we are a product of incest and inbreding

OOOO ouch; here comes the attacks. Incest eh.

Actually I think evolution doesn't speak for itself. There are many animals that defy evolution and shouldn't exist if evolution were real.

Notice how scientists have scrapped the big bang theory? It's because it is ridiculous! I'm sure that and explosion that forces things apart would just happen to have them come together again and reform.

And about dinasaurs; that is dumb also, there have been sighting of dinasaurs like "nessy" and so forth. Some Japanese fishermen reeled in a carcus of one that was still rotting; not jut the bones.


About the incest thing; you must keep in mind that was prolly 6000 years ago when genetics were much different and in fact God's law was much different also.

and here was the one who dindnt understand it was a humorous reply to debbies post

have I mentioned the big bang theory? Just because that one believe in an evolutionary theory ON EARTH doesnt mean you believe in the big bang theory, and the big bang theory aint more ridiculous than the theory of a deity


eh what is dumb about the dinosaurs

6000 years ago huh, man have existed far longer than that, and incest is incest regardless what law. Bloodshame

better that than have faith we are a product of incest and inbreeding



Inbreeding....sounds kinky..

debbie
have you not read Genises plus most other religions have creation being of two people and everyone else coming from them

And here's another who doesn't understand that my post was a humorous reply to your post

Well so we both agree the big bang theory is crap. cool

How does evolution explain the law of gravity or any of Newton's laws?

It's dumb that they say dinasaurs lived millions of years ago when there have been sighting of them in our modern times- it makes sense with Christianity because if there were a flood then some of the sea dinasaurs would still be living wouldn't they? And also that there are fossils of sea creatures that can be found in areas where there is absolutely no water. A first hand example; my mom is a farmer's daughter, the farm being in marshfield wisconsin. When she was younger she found a fossil of a sea creature in the fields and there isn't a large body of water to support that kind of life for miles!!!

How do you know for sure that man has existed far longer than 6000 years? In our modern society it is common and law almost everywhere to have only one wife. Back then many had plenty of wives- things have changed.

well as long as they can give substantial evidence in form of proof I dont believe in the big bang theory either, its the same there as it is with the belief in god. I dont differ in my opinion on a matter if they cant give me real proof whether that be the big bang theory or deities

well people have spotted Elvis too after his death so...........

the different ice ages that have occurred have changed a lot of climate and topography

because of substantial evidence that say they have .

doesnt change the fact that incest is still bloodshame regardless how many wife's you got, and my friends that are not in a relationship hook up with different girls all the time, I aint married so I aint bound by no laws about the number of spouses, I do stick to the one I live with though and only her cause we dont need others to share our love

Originally posted by gp christ loves
debbie
have you not read Genises plus most other religions have creation being of two people and everyone else coming from them

My posts are jokes..

And yes I have read most all the Bible..I've been in many study groups, from Pentecostal, baptist, Methodist, SDA, assembly of God..etc...And have studied many others including Gnostic, Essenes, JW's..etc...

I try to look beyond the normal....

assembly of god oh man what a group

Have you been to one??? Though I think Pentecostals worst...They were dancing in the isles, and falling on the floor wiggling. They had special blankets that they would throw over womens dresses, cause they could flip up...lots of speaking in tongues..screaming...casting out demons (not sure if that was real), And the BIG MIRACLE barrel, that you would put your money into and then get prayed for to receive a miracle...Not a boring service at all...I could never get into it though..Just couldn't dance, just couldn't speak in tongues, just didn't get a miracle....

Hope this didn't offend anyone..

Found out there was many false words of God...

Originally posted by finti
well as long as they can give substantial evidence in form of proof I dont believe in the big bang theory either, its the same there as it is with the belief in god. I dont differ in my opinion on a matter if they cant give me real proof whether that be the big bang theory or deities

well people have spotted Elvis too after his death so...........

the different ice ages that have occurred have changed a lot of climate and topography

because of substantial evidence that say they have .

doesnt change the fact that incest is still bloodshame regardless how many wife's you got, and my friends that are not in a relationship hook up with different girls all the time, I aint married so I aint bound by no laws about the number of spouses, I do stick to the one I live with though and only her cause we dont need others to share our love

Elvis, ha! yeah those people must have been crazy. The things is that thousands of people have spotted these dinasaurs and it makes sense too. Now you could say the same thing about UFOs but you must keep in mind that just becasue one hoax theory isn't true doesn't mean they all are. Now that would be a hasty generalization wouldn't it.

The flood could create the same results as the changes in climate topography just as ice ages. And in fact that's what I believe. Now once you laughed or ridiculed(im not upset im just saying that you did) someone who said that it hadnt rained before the flood.
Don't you think if that were true it could produce some of the same results of an ice age?

I was using the example of many wives to show you that things change; I am not advocating either in any way other than from the beginnings of time which it was necessary to reproduce because at that time it was God's command and obviously the effect of "incest" back then differ from now because there wasn't any horrible genetic side affects from birth otherwise we would be really screwed up right now wouldn't we?

Originally posted by finti
assembly of god oh man what a group

Once again, a fallacy; dont' judge all Chistians from talking to one and don't judge all the assembly of God churchs from being at only one.


I attend one which my father is the pastor of and he is a very good man.

yeah well we still needs proof not the wishful thinkings of a thousands so eager to see it the mind plays tricks on them

who said I just been to one?

yeah cause the vegatation needs water and the fact that the bible states that god created the seas, well what happen when seas or water heat up?

but we are screwed up

yeah i suppose we are screwed up

The bible says that a mist would fall in the night and thats basically how they plants got watered; like fog basically would come down and the plants would be watered by dew.(yeah i know you just fell out of your seat from laughter)

You implied you have been at one of their churchs by saying "what a group"

Yes we do need wishfull thinking; I do have a couple theories about "nessie" and all that. I think one of the reasons talking about dinasaurs in this fashion is being scoffed at is because everyone is so ready to endorse evolution. I also think that there haven't been many of the sightings "confirmed" is because there are so many scientists who do believe in evolution they don't want to investigate dinasaurs actually being alive today.

group refered to group of churches, not just one congregation

if nessie existed thay would have found it

Yes, that's a hasty generalization and you are judging them all. I happen to like the Assembly of God organization. What exactly made you think of them as"that group."

You do realize that the water in the lake is pitch black and there are cave systems at the bottom?
It would be pretty hard to find the creature in those conditions and plus there's the cost of funding expiditions to find it.

It is a genetic impossibility for the entire human race to descend from a breeding population of only two individuals. Furthermore, no amount of changes in human genetics over the course of time will ever make it possible.

you dig so deep and if you where to just look around you you would see that there is no choice other than god for all who question these types of things go to ICR.org and read some articles and then talk about it until you have done that you are not informed to the point that you can be ready to argue about it

Originally posted by gp christ loves
you dig so deep and if you where to just look around you you would see that there is no choice other than god for all who question these types of things go to ICR.org and read some articles and then talk about it until you have done that you are not informed to the point that you can be ready to argue about it

Stephen J. Gould once said, "I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms." The same is true of Creationism.

Originally posted by Echuu
Then where do you believe we came from? Nothing can be destroyed or created, I think that is pretty obvious. Energy, to put it simply.
It only passes from one form to the other.

Evolution is how we came about.

because when you visit several diffeent churches within a denomination they can be refered to as a group.

yeah its tricky to find Santa at the north pole too, nessie is a nice story.............for kids, but truth is that with the equipment they have today thers is no places left for it to hide.

Let me ask you this echuu, ever been to Loch Ness?

Originally posted by finti
because when you visit several diffeent churches within a denomination they can be refered to as a group.

yeah its tricky to find Santa at the north pole too, nessie is a nice story.............for kids, but truth is that with the equipment they have today thers is no places left for it to hide.

Let me ask you this echuu, ever been to Loch Ness?

No no, I meant what did the churchs do to tick you off?



No i have never been to loch ness have you?

The information I gather from is from experts who have been there and have seen it first hand.

I was really met with a load of ignorance from that church when I live din the states, they used me as an example of people of low moral simply because I was a Scandinavian. They did so before they ever met me, and when I encountered them on how many of them that actually had been to Scandinavia the aswer was none.

yes I have

you should ask yourself this: why is it that these experts failed to record their sitings onto film, after all these expert is driven by wanting to be believed for what they claim to have seen. Because their level of expertise will be in question if they can not produce proof

Originally posted by debbiejo
Who would God say are His true followers???

1. Christians who claim to be his followers or

2. Anyone who isn't a believer in Christ, but who do exhibit the fruits of the spirit.


THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRITS ARE.

Love, patience, self control, mercy, long suffering, humility, compassion, kindness, charity, not boastful, not delighting in evil,...etc...

His followers are christians but god being jewish the followers should be all jews instead so it is really hard to say who the the fruit of the spirts are.JM

That's because the Fruits of the Spirit are a New Test. thing...If youre Jewish, then you only read the OT. Is that right? Or are they mentioned in there also.

Originally posted by finti
I was really met with a load of ignorance from that church when I live din the states, they used me as an example of people of low moral simply because I was a Scandinavian. They did so before they ever met me, and when I encountered them on how many of them that actually had been to Scandinavia the aswer was none.

yes I have

you should ask yourself this: why is it that these experts failed to record their sitings onto film, after all these expert is driven by wanting to be believed for what they claim to have seen. Because their level of expertise will be in question if they can not produce proof

Man that's gotta suck; srry bout that. I'm 25% Swede; I like Scandenavia!


Just because you are searching for something doesn't mean you will find it; even if you are the biggest expert in the world.

So since you have been to loch ness, what was it like? Was it different than what I said?

yes and that just show you how exaggerated stuff are about it all. The water is nothing worse than any other lake, there is a certain string in the air about that place but tha is because of the myth that surrounds it. All in all it was a real disappointment

with the equipment they have today there is no excuse for not coming up with a final result for the search of nessie. The conclusion is actually clear, but out of respect of the local tourist industry that surrounds the area they dont wanna a publish it.

that was actually their double edged sword, members of the congregation that slam me for being a low moral Scandinavian was actually of Scandinavian descend...

very interesting...

Just goes to show you that the same groups can be quite different on other continents.

Originally posted by finti
I came with an argument that there is no god, and that argument dont need proof and it stands until proven wrong........which nobody on this planet is capable of doing
In which case I can point you to a number of Adam's posts where he says that the burden is upon those who wish to prove their point; one cannot prove a negation, etc., etc., etc.

(But Adam won't say that about an argument against God.)

Interesting about Adam...hummm

he doesnt have to , cause if you lot been bright enough to tie your own shoe you wouldnt take up this discussion/argument which you would loose soooooooooooooooooooo badly, it aint our fault you argue like a smuck cause the evidence at hand is for our benefit not yours

Originally posted by FeceMan
In which case I can point you to a number of Adam's posts where he says that the burden is upon those who wish to prove their point; one cannot prove a negation, etc., etc., etc.

(But Adam won't say that about an argument against God.)

Rationally, one must assume that something does not exist unless there is material evidence that it does. Those who believe in the existence of God follow this rule in other instances but do not apply the same reasoning to the existence of God. For example, one does not believe in the existence of unicorns eventhough he cannot prove that no unicorns exist somewhere. In this sense, it is as pointless to argue that God does not exist as it is to argue that unicorns do not exist.

Rational thinking and assumptions can't solve everything.


But a belief in God can be called faith.

It takes just as much faith for me to believe in God and for someone else to not believe in God.

Originally posted by Echuu
Rational thinking and assumptions can't solve everything.

Irrational thinking does not solve anything.



Originally posted by Echuu
But a belief in God can be called faith.

A belief in God can be called a number of things.



Originally posted by Echuu
It takes just as much faith for me to believe in God and for someone else to not believe in God.

If there is no material evidence that something exists, it is rational to assume that it does not. Therefore, it takes no degree of faith to assume its non-existence.

God doesn't really need you to believe for Him to be real...or not.

yes god does, wthout it god is dead

and dami the smileis didnt work for me last night but should have been there.....now they are

You seem to think God needs us.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Irrational thinking does not solve anything.





A belief in God can be called a number of things.





If there is no material evidence that something exists, it is rational to assume that it does not. Therefore, it takes no degree of faith to assume its non-existence.

Did I ever say that irrational thinking solved anything?

I know that a belief in God can be called many things.

Yes it does; your having faith that your assumption is correct. Your assumption cannot be definitively proven, even if it is"rational" to think that way.

Adam I thought your belief,that you stated once, was that there could be a possibility of a god.

all gods are dependent on humans, gods need for human to believe in them if not they cease to exist

My God is NOT dependant on humans. Whether you believe or not in God, he will always exist, whether you acept him or not he will always rule, what you think does not matter.

Originally posted by finti
all gods are dependent on humans, gods need for human to believe in them if not they cease to exist

Where did you read that??

I was really met with a load of ignorance from that church when I live din the states, they used me as an example of people of low moral simply because I was a Scandinavian. They did so before they ever met me, and when I encountered them on how many of them that actually had been to Scandinavia the aswer was none.


look, i think u might just take people the wrong way. There is such a thing. Also i think u need to back off and accept other peoples opinions once instead of having a solo pitty party for yourself.FINTI

Where's the party.. Can I come?

paperbag3

Originally posted by Echuu
Yes it does; your having faith that your assumption is correct. Your assumption cannot be definitively proven, even if it is"rational" to think that way.

How many times must we go over this? A negation cannot be proven. You cannot prove that something does not exist, because if it does not exist, there would be no evidence of its existence, let alone its non-existence. Likewise, if there is no material evidence that something exists, it is reasonable to assume that it does not. There is no material evidence that leprechauns exist, and it requires no degree of faith on my part to not believe in their existence. "I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."

"Fruits Of The Spirit...Who Has Them??"

All those Mexican Catholics that crossed the border illegally. That's how their supplying those little stands on the side of the highway.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You cannot prove that something does not exist, because if it does not exist, there would be no evidence of its existence, let alone its non-existence.

Good then you can't prove that there isn't a God. We agree on something.








Mexican illegals





"Come buy our fruit to enter paradise. If you sell fake IDs it's half off on everything."

Originally posted by Echuu
Good then you can't prove that there isn't a God. We agree on something.

The inability to prove a negation is not a fault of my argument, but the inability to prove an affirmative is certainly a fault of yours.

The inability of science to even CONSDIDER the existence of some supernatural being having influence with anything isn't my fault; or yours. There are some things that science, rational thinking, and logic can't solve, and I would hope you would agree with me on that.

Plus, what the heck are you talking about? YOU said,"You cannot prove that something does not exist." I was agreeing with you and not trying to make this pointless issue go on and on.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
"Fruits Of The Spirit...Who Has Them??"

All those Mexican Catholics that crossed the border illegally. That's how their supplying those little stands on the side of the highway.


You: "Prove Christianity. I say it isn't correct and you haven't provided me any information that proves it."

Me: "Prove macroevolution. I say it isn't correct and you haven't provided me any information that proves it."

Originally posted by FeceMan
You: "Prove Christianity. I say it isn't correct and you haven't provided me any information that proves it."

Me: "Prove macroevolution. I say it isn't correct and you haven't provided me any information that proves it."

Me: "If it is your assertion that God exists, than prove it."

You: "I cannot prove that God exists, but you cannot prove that He does not."

gods are man made, if man stop believing in them gods die

in the real world where I live what the individual thinks does matter. I cant speak for religious la la land though, but your statement that what you think doesnt matter tells of a more of a mind controlling state. A state where you cant think for yourself cause you might stumble onto the truth and you cant have that cause that be the end of your religion

Not the God...It doesn't matter if you believe....Just like if don't believe the vacume cleaner is in the closet...If it's in there, then it is. We have no choice in whether it is or not.. Not believing in the vacume cleaner doesn't make it go away.....Though I know what your saying...

Of course he doesn't that why it's called the "Theory of Evolution".

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Of course he doesn't that why it's called the "Theory of Evolution".

Scientists and their crazy "theories". Like that one, the "Theory of Relativity," we all know that one is false.

If it wasn't a theory, it'd be a principle. And beside, a theory can stiil be proven wrong.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Scientists and their crazy "theories". Like that one, the "Theory of Relativity," we all know that one is false.

At least it's called the THEORY of Relativity and taught as that, unlike Evolution...It's not called the theory it is.

Maybe they're both real to some point..At least I'm open minded...

Can't say the same for you Adam.

Well actually, do to several claims/complaints Evolution MUST be recognized as a theory, and theory alone.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Scientists and their crazy "theories". Like that one, the "Theory of Relativity," we all know that one is false.

lol

How does evolution explain the origin of any of newton's laws, or the law or gravity or the theory of relativity?

Must not know, must be rambling.

Honestly, I think Relativity is much more interesting..

So do, but remember it's just a theory.

Originally posted by debbiejo
At least it's called the THEORY of Relativity and taught as that, unlike Evolution...It's not called the theory it is.

Maybe they're both real to some point..At least I'm open minded...

Can't say the same for you Adam.

I don't know where you went to school, but it was taught as a theory to me. Creationism was taught as the absolute in my school system. A catholic school system.

As for Adams ability to be open minded, truths mean something to him. He holds his own belief system, not one that was taught to him; rather one he developed. It might serve some other people to follow the same principle to reach their own conclusions, rather than the ones they've been taught to believe.

And those who argue that creationism is the way, why not be open minded yourselves and call it the "theory of creationism" when it's being taught in denominational schools or by a parent or pastor?

Hello?

Can't some evolutionist answer my question?

"How does evolution explain the origin of any of newton's laws, or the law or gravity or the theory of relativity?"

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I don't know where you went to school, but it was taught as a theory to me. Creationism was taught as the absolute in my school system. A catholic school system.

As for Adams ability to be open minded, truths mean something to him. He holds his own belief system, not one that was taught to him; rather one he developed. It might serve some other people to follow the same principle to reach their own conclusions, rather than the ones they've been taught to believe.

And those who argue that creationism is the way, why not be open minded yourselves and call it the "theory of creationism" when it's being taught in denominational schools or by a parent or pastor?

If the entire world creates their own belief system, then they have to choose princples they've been taught.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I don't know where you went to school, but it was taught as a theory to me. Creationism was taught as the absolute in my school system. A catholic school system.

As for Adams ability to be open minded, truths mean something to him. He holds his own belief system, not one that was taught to him; rather one he developed. It might serve some other people to follow the same principle to reach their own conclusions, rather than the ones they've been taught to believe.

And those who argue that creationism is the way, why not be open minded yourselves and call it the "theory of creationism" when it's being taught in denominational schools or by a parent or pastor?

Well in my school, it was evolution that was taught as fact. It was a public school...So...Maybe both should be taught as a theory and let the students make up their own minds...But I wasn't talking about evolution. I was talking about Relativity when I mentioned Adam...lol...


OH...Hello Echu...

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well in my school, it was evolution that was taught as fact. It was a public school...So...Maybe both should be taught as a theory and let the students make up their own minds...But I wasn't talking about evolution. I was talking about Relativity when I mentioned Adam...lol...


OH...Hello Echu...

I really doens't matter where you go to school, because either way they are both theories.

I think they should present both sides of it. I hate it that many public schools refuse to talk about it and people scream"seperation of church and state!!!"

The school I graduated from last year was a Christian one but we talked about evolution.

Why won't anyone answer my question?

"I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."





Congratulations on missing the point entirely. The post to which you are refering is an illustration of the gross misunderstanding of the term "theory" as it applies to science made by PrinceofBlades, debbiejoe, yourself, and countless others. Contrary to your understanding, a theory is not simply a speculation. In science, a theory is "a set of explanitory statements or principles devised to explain or make predictions about natural phenomena that has been repeatedly tested and the results replicated."

I think you missed the point....I am asking you HOW does evolution explain these laws, like newton's or the law of gravity?
HOW does evolution explain their existence?

Originally posted by Echuu
I think you missed the point....I am asking you HOW does evolution explain these laws, like newton's or the law of gravity?
HOW does evolution explain their existence?

No one stated that evolution explains relativity, that is why they are separate theories; "Evolution" explains a paticular phenomena, and "relativity" another. The point I was making is that relativity is also "just a theory" but this does not mean that gravity is not real and that things will start to rise tomorrow.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
"I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."


Are you somebodies parrot? I don't want to talk about apples.....

You always make that same statement...Can't we at least change it to another fruit?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Are you somebodies parrot? I don't want to talk about apples.....

You always make that same statement... Can't we at least change it to another fruit?

There is no sense in rephrasing a statement and posting it as my own, when I can directly quote the author who said it best the first time.

Furthermore, I will cease posting that quote when it ceases to be relevant.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well in my school, it was evolution that was taught as fact. It was a public school...So...Maybe both should be taught as a theory and let the students make up their own minds...

That's not possible in a blossoming theocracy. When Jesus is removed from the equation, then...and only then...will the opprotunity of the
'theory of christianity" be possible. As it is, we have a social system that is beholdent to the conservative right, and the hand it has up the Presidents ass.

Furthermore Debbie, there will never be a "theory of christianity" and an "opprotunity to let the students decide for themselves". Why? Because if people were allowed to think for themselves, no one would choose to believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or Jesus. It's no wonder the American public has never been given that luxury.

look at all the cultures that have been raped of their gods, now they are just a footnote in the history book their god is dead and not worshiped anymore.
Just like with the norse gods, well we have had a revival of worshiping them in the later years though, but hadnt it been for those who wrote down the Norse mythology it would have been lost and thus dead cause nobody knew or believed in it anymore. Its the same with the biblical god written records of the faith in this god will keep that god alive as long as faith and the bible exist

So comparing a physical things like a vacume cleaner to that of a god wont do, the vacume we know exist, the god as long as not proven to exist exist in faith only. When that faith is gone then there aint no place for that god to exist.

Originally posted by finti
gods are man made, if man stop believing in them gods die

in the real world where I live what the individual thinks does matter. I cant speak for religious la la land though, but your statement that what you think doesnt matter tells of a more of a mind controlling state. A state where you cant think for yourself cause you might stumble onto the truth and you cant have that cause that be the end of your religion

Look i dont know where you got that from but its wrong. Im not saying it cause it sounds good, or cause i like to say you are wrong or something but thats the truth. I dont know who YOUR God is, but i do know that my God isnt dependant on men!

for the 100th time your beliefs aint facts nor the truth, you believe in god want god to be real, but beside your faith in god you cant say others are wrong because it is all what we believe. So until someone can prove me wrong with substantial evidence of a god , no the bible and what you are convinced off aint evidence nor proof, I am not wrong......................oh and I dont have a god, dont need one

I have faith. I dont need to see God to know he exists. I have seen his works in my life!
And faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. By it men of old recieved devine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things that do not appear.
Hebrews 11:1-4
The Bible
Thnk about that. And if you dnt get it or and understand it...okay, i respect you r opinion.

Originally posted by b-ball_chick
I have faith. I dont need to see God to know he exists. I have seen his works in my life!
And faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. By it men of old recieved devine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things that do not appear.
Hebrews 11:1-4
The Bible
Thnk about that. And if you dnt get it or and understand it...okay, i respect you r opinion.

Well said.

And faith in the none existence is a nothing but a waste ............again faith alone cant prove gods existence so dont confuse the fact of knowing with hope. And as I said the bible is just a collection of hopeful writings, even the norse mythology was written down so maybe I should start quoting them. Wouldnt do any good but neither does the biblical quotes.
You say youve seen gods work in your life, well during my life, so far, I have had plenty of experinence that says ther is no god

Remember thats you. And God ONLY works in the lives of those that are willing to let him in their life. God doesnt force himself on people. It all depends on YOU.

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Well said.
Thanks.

Originally posted by finti
And faith in the none existence is a nothing but a waste ............again faith alone cant prove gods existence so dont confuse the fact of knowing with hope. And as I said the bible is just a collection of hopeful writings, even the norse mythology was written down so maybe I should start quoting them. Wouldnt do any good but neither does the biblical quotes.
You say youve seen gods work in your life, well during my life, so far, I have had plenty of experinence that says ther is no god

But sometimes where logic fails faith succeeds. Everything is made so that it is in balance with one another. When logic is out of line, it's answers aren't fully explainable, and vice versa. But when faith is aligned with reason, answers are ascertained, and knowledge is received. It is very difficult to say that faith is in the fault, when science can not explain everything that happens around you. And we can't say faith is in the fault, for the answer to 1+1=2 and not God. It's logic and it's faith. But hoping for something to work, is putting faith in your talents and that of others. Ever thought of it that way?

no cause to me that dont make sense

Originally posted by finti
no cause to me that dont make sense

Hoping for an A on a report or homework, or project is well having hope. Calming that emotion to know that you did your best and that you will get a good grade. That is faith. Telling yourself you know it will work is having faith.

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Hoping for an A on a report or homework, or project is well having hope. Calming that emotion to know that you did your best and that you will get a good grade. That is faith. Telling yourself you know it will work is having faith.

Oh, I wish I lived in your fairy tale world. Grades are based on prayer?! Even in your world they are based on merrit. What total shit. I'm gonna turn in my assignment and hope I get a good grade. If I do, then it's because Jesus loves me?!? My God, what desperate place are you pulling from? That has to be one of the most ridiculous examples I've EVER heard.

I got the grade I deserved. It was all up to me, I never walked around dazed and confused hoping for a grade. I always did my best. I took pride in it and my grades came because of my self dicipline to never slack off on projects, homework and tests in school regardless how hard or easy the task was.

Again, thats you. God does NOT force himself on people because he is not just someone who gives out like Santa Claus.

I know S.C does not exist but you know for example's sake.

Originally posted by b-ball_chick
I know S.C does not exist but you know for example's sake.

St. Nicolas did exsit. But Santa Clause is an ideal. The ideal that for one day, we think of others and preform charitable acts of sharing items and time with one another.

that I do more than on just that day

^ Then you're a Gooood Boy.

Oh BTW..The charitable acts have to be something else besides sex.

actually twice a week I go to the local retirement/home for elderly and talk to those who doesnt get too much visits from their relatives.

OK...What have you done with the real finti???

J/K


Wow..That's great! That is what it's all about...I was going to the nursing home myself for a few years to see a man who's kids wouldn't visit him, Earl...He died on Christmas day a year ago.

yeah Ive experienced some of the elderly die too, but thats life so what can one do. Hopefully they didnt feel all alone the last remaining time the lived though

Allow me to be the devils advocate (a saying meaning "be the bad guy" Let you know the shorter end of the stick.

But why do you do this finiti? What urges you to take part in such charitable acts? You shouldn't care, I mean what have they done for you? Is it a greater good, do you recieve something in return? What good are they in such years of old? You've seen elderly die, you would know how such a burden is lifted from society. So why finiti? Why?

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Allow me to be the devils advocate (a saying meaning "be the bad guy" Let you know the shorter end of the stick.

But why do you do this finiti? What urges you to take part in such charitable acts? You shouldn't care, I mean what have they done for you? Is it a greater good, do you recieve something in return? What good are they in such years of old? You've seen elderly die, you would know how such a burden is lifted from society. So why finiti? Why?

So, are you implying that he does these things to get into heaven? What is it with religious people thinking they have the market cornered on living descent lives and having compassion for other people? Maybe finti does it to make these peoples lives a little better, without thinking of himself. That's a very interesting standpoint though, because it illustrates that not all christians do something out of selflessness. They perform all these charitable acts for their own benefit, for the chance to get into heaven. How selfless is it in the final analysis?

If you're trying to imply that he does these things because god is somehow telling him to, then that makes little sense as well. That implies that god is using him, while not enlightening him to the reality of the situation.

Not that I'm trying to speak for finti, but that's the impression I get from your question.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
So, are you implying that he does these things to get into heaven? What is it with religious people thinking they have the market cornered on living descent lives and having compassion for other people? Maybe finti does it to make these peoples lives a little better, without thinking of himself. That's a very interesting standpoint though, because it illustrates that not all christians do something out of selflessness. They perform all these charitable acts for their own benefit, for the chance to get into heaven. How selfless is it in the final analysis?

If you're trying to imply that he does these things because god is somehow telling him to, then that makes little sense as well. That implies that god is using him, while not enlightening him to the reality of the situation.

Not that I'm trying to speak for finti, but that's the impression I get from your question.

O but on the contrary, if you have read the responses of finiti, it has lead me to believe that he is not christian. And so I was asking him, "if you don't believe in God, than why bother with a clean life?" Make people happy, have they ever tried to make you happy? I'm asking whats the end in view. Why bother. I'm not saying that selflessnes can only be percieved through christians. I mean heck look at Christ he was a freaking jew (sorry God, just to prove a point). I mean, you cant get more self giving than that. I was just asking that what do you owe your consciouse if that's in theory the voice of God.

And if you ever get the time, look up what it means when someone says, "Allow me to play devils advocate here."

To think finti's sleeping right now...I know they do that in Norway.
I wonder if his ears are ringing...

Originally posted by debbiejo
To think finti's sleeping right now...I know they do that in Norway.
I wonder if his ears are ringing...

Why would they be rinigng?

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
And so I was asking him, "if you don't believe in God, than why bother with a clean life?" Make people happy, have they ever tried to make you happy? I'm asking whats the end in view. Why bother.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
What is it with religious people thinking they have the market cornered on living descent lives and having compassion for other people? Maybe finti does it to make these peoples lives a little better, without thinking of himself.

You know the saying "You know when somebody is talking about you if your ears are ringing."

Originally posted by Adam_PoE


Your point being...?

Originally posted by debbiejo
You know the saying "You know when somebody is talking about you if your ears are ringing."

No i didn't know that.

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Your point being...?

The point is fairly clear.

why? simply because these are people I have known since I was a little kid. They are part of me growing up, they didnt have to do thing for me. Its not like scratch my back and I`ll scratch yours. I dont need a reason to be nice to people, the reason why I do this things is because its just the way I am. I was brought up to take a concern for our fellow human beings, what good are they in such years of old? Does it matter what age they have are they less of a human and less worth just because they are old. These old people are the ones that build my country to what it is today, because of them I live in a free society, the least we can do is show some bit of gratitude, not just store them away in a home for elderly.

Basic line I do it because I see what joy it brings them, and to me that is reason enough

that is correct, I am not a christian well this is the problem with many christian people, they cant understand beyond their faith.
You see I do not do this for me, I do it for them

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
O but on the contrary, if you have read the responses of finiti, it has lead me to believe that he is not christian. And so I was asking him, "if you don't believe in God, than why bother with a clean life?" Make people happy, have they ever tried to make you happy? I'm asking whats the end in view. Why bother. I'm not saying that selflessnes can only be percieved through christians. I mean heck look at Christ he was a freaking jew (sorry God, just to prove a point). I mean, you cant get more self giving than that. I was just asking that what do you owe your consciouse if that's in theory the voice of God.

And if you ever get the time, look up what it means when someone says, "Allow me to play devils advocate here."

First of all, I know very well what it means to "play devils advocate."

Second, I have a feeling that you have a hard time understanding that living a clean and respectable life isn't reserved for christians alone. In fact, you illustrate my earlier point that many christians(yourself apparently) only perform acts of charity or kindness out of a self centered, self serving place. Why? Because they fear god and want to get into heaven.

Unlike the notion in your head, maybe people live descent lives out of an inner charity and kindness that you don't understand becuase you're just trying to make the grade and get into heaven. That doesn't need to be a god given trait. Compassion did not come from god.

What do we owe our consciousness? Nothing. What do we owe our fellow man? Nothing. It has little to do with what we "owe" and more with what we want to "give".

But, to satisfy your theory, I give very little my fellow man. I don't participate in food drives, I don't work at homeless shelters and I don't visit old people in my spare time. Hell, I wouldn't recycle if my room mate didn't dig trash out of the garbage can.

You still don't get it. Either of you. There is such thing as the good atheist, and the BAD catholic. But everything has AN END IN VIEW. What you wish to achieve after an action is preformed. I am questioning you with these simple counters to prove a point:

"Everyone is kind. Every act with an intent. We do things to achieve a greater good, or a greater evil. From which we choose from defines our character. If we live a life of virtue, truth, morals, the ideals of right and wrong, than we live them for a reason. For Christians and Jews and Muslims it's not fear of God alone, but rather for the love of him as well. Buddhist and Hinduism do it for enlightenment. And the good athiest does it because he knows what's right. Those who do it for a greater evil do not do the good, but avoid it. They partake in the bad as a good. For anyone who is of sound mind and body would never act for the greater evil. So for us to act for a greater good, we must BELIEVE in one."

And it saddens me to hear Capt_Fantastic, that you wouldn't even help your own brother. YOu remind me of a horrible quote, but an ever so true one:

"The man that eats alone, dies alone. But he does not die of hunger."

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
You still don't get it. Either of you. There is such thing as the good atheist, and the BAD catholic. But everything has AN END IN VIEW. What you wish to achieve after an action is preformed. I am questioning you with these simple counters to prove a point:

"Everyone is kind. Every act with an intent. We do things to achieve a greater good, or a greater evil. From which we choose from defines our character. If we live a life of virtue, truth, morals, the ideals of right and wrong, than we live them for a reason. For Christians and Jews and Muslims it's not fear of God alone, but rather for the love of him as well. Buddhist and Hinduism do it for enlightenment. And the good athiest does it because he knows what's right. Those who do it for a greater evil do not do the good, but avoid it. They partake in the bad as a good. For anyone who is of sound mind and body would never act for the greater evil. So for us to act for a greater good, we must BELIEVE in one."

Define what you mean by "greater good". It seems to me that you are basically saying that if you do something that could be considered evil by other, but you believe you're doing what's right? Maybe we are all born good, but become evil because we don't do for the greater good? What the hell are you saying?

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. But, why does there have to be an end result in living a good life? Maybe I'm just a nice guy. Maybe I put a smile on someones face simply for the sake of making them smile. I don't understand what it is you are trying to say...so why don't you take pity on us and let the rest of us in on your secret.

You have quotations around your paragraph. Who are you quoting?


Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
And it saddens me to hear Capt_Fantastic, that you wouldn't even help your own brother. YOu remind me of a horrible quote, but an ever so true one:

"The man that eats alone, dies alone. But he does not die of hunger."

Thanks, I have plenty of friends. I couldn't have friends if I was a "horrible" person. I would do anything for my brother. But you are not my brother, nor is the guy that lives down the street. Trust me, you thinking I'm horrible means exactly shit to me. I never said I was a bad guy that went around spitting on babies. I just don't go out of my way to help people I don't know, unless it's something like an old woman has dropped the contents of her purse on teh ground in the midlle of the parking lot. Sure, I'll bend down and hel her. But, if that same woman is starving in a homeless shelter, I'll never know because I don't go to those places.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Define what you mean by "greater good". It seems to me that you are basically saying that if you do something that could be considered evil by other, but you believe you're doing what's right? Maybe we are all born good, but become evil because we don't do for the greater good? What the hell are you saying?

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying. But, why does there have to be an end result in living a good life? Maybe I'm just a nice guy. Maybe I put a smile on someones face simply for the sake of making them smile. I don't understand what it is you are trying to say...so why don't you take pity on us and let the rest of us in on your secret.

You have quotations around your paragraph. Who are you quoting?

Doing something for the heck of it, is boild down to "Doing something." If you do not understand what is meant, than quite shooting in the dark. You may do something with no intention in mind, and still have strived for a greater good. Putting it smiles on peoples faces because it feels good is an end in view. A greater good comes out of it by becoming a better person.



It wasn't to be taken literal, and I never called you horrible, don't put words in my mouth. I was simply saying, that for once you bring down your "I could care less what you think, and about everyone elses opinion" and TAKE the time to help out the community, you'll feel good inside too. If you don't want to feel good inside, fine, do it because it's right. But let me make something clear, your turning this simple curious questioning into a point and execute. If you really, and truly look at the first time I had asked finiti "Why?" and look with your reason, not your eyes. You might, just might, see what I was coming across. But never assume anything, especially with me. Because you'll come out making an ass of yourself. And that, was to be taken seriously.

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
It wasn't to be taken literal, and I never called you horrible, don't put words in my mouth. I was simply saying, that for once you bring down your "I could care less what you think, and about everyone elses opinion" and TAKE the time to help out the community, you'll feel good inside too. If you don't want to feel good inside, fine, do it because it's right. But let me make something clear, your turning this simple curious questioning into a point and execute. If you really, and truly look at the first time I had asked finiti "Why?" and look with your reason, not your eyes. You might, just might, see what I was coming across. But never assume anything, especially with me. Because you'll come out making an ass of yourself. And that, was to be taken seriously.

I don't assume anything about you. I know only of you what you illustrate about yourself in your posts. As for what I care about, no I don't care about your opinion, or of the opinion of people I don't know. I do care about my friends and family, their opinion matters to me a great deal. And I do like to feel good on the inside, but I don't have to feed the homeless to feel good on the inside.

And the first question you asked finti was "You do all these good things, but why? WHY? And then once he answers, you say he doesn't understand the question either. Does he not understand the question because it has nothing to do with god in the end?

And all the "right" things I do are because they're "right"...not to make myself feel better.

"Doing something for the heck of it, is boild down to "Doing something." If you do not understand what is meant, than quite shooting in the dark. You may do something with no intention in mind, and still have strived for a greater good. Putting it smiles on peoples faces because it feels good is an end in view. A greater good comes out of it by becoming a better person."

I'm not shooting in the dark, I'm trying to understand what the hell you're saying. And I never said that I made someone smile to make ME feel better, I make someone smile to make THEM feel better. I don't need to become a better person, that's why people like you are around.

Funny, I seem to be having the ill effect right now...Your getting close, but your still not grasping the point.

Do not take this the worng way but you reminded me of another quote of mine, "Those who don't give a shit. shouldn't be given a shit about." Not my personal philosophy, but one that I can coup with.

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Funny, I seem to be having the ill effect right now...Your getting close, but your still not grasping the point.

Do not take this the worng way but you reminded me of another quote of mine, "Those who don't give a shit. shouldn't be given a shit about." Not my personal philosophy, but one that I can coup with.

Well, hey, I know you give a shit about your fellow man, but I don't give a shit about you. So, your quote has some flaws in it. And, once again, you keep quoting people...but not telling us who said it. Perhaps you fancy yourself a philosipher?

I might not be grasping the point because you don't have one.

rifle raygun


wallbash Somebody help me!!!

yeah talk about not getting it, Basic line I do it because I see what joy it brings them, and to me that is reason enough that was the simple answer to your so called simple counters end in view. If you dont get it by the the reply I wrote earlier I cant help you any further. Call it greater good call it what you want, but the basic line is that as long as it brings them joy and lighten up their day a bit it is worth it.

Thanks for proving MY point. You do things for a reason, and your was happiness, but because you aren't christian, you can not grasp the fullness of your actions. But don't worry, you aren't the only one.

???? I can grasp the fullness of my action above that of any christian, I do it for them and not because I think it will by me a ticket to heaven like the selfish christian would.

Oh perlease, i so do not agree with you.
NOTE: There are fake christians so be careful bout how you say the word "christians"

I've known "Christians" that have done horrible things, really...And there are Christians that have done such wonderful things...The same goes for anybody and their beliefs...I know some nonbelievers that live more closely to the spirit then believers....Who would God pick?

In the Bible it states that we will be judged by the law. So even those that dont know the law and follow it will be judged by it either way. But to go to heaven you need Jesus. So... It's kinda hard to underastand. Even the didciples didnt nderstand at first.

Originally posted by finti
???? I can grasp the fullness of my action above that of any christian, I do it for them and not because I think it will by me a ticket to heaven like the selfish christian would.

Can you see the cosmic proportion of your actions? Do you ever look outside the directly affected and see how this might affect someone, umm I don't know, across the world? Believe it or not, everything and anything you do, affects each and everyone of us. EVERYTHING. You want to prove it, give me any type of scenario.

Originally posted by b-ball_chick
In the Bible it states that we will be judged by the law. So even those that dont know the law and follow it will be judged by it either way. But to go to heaven you need Jesus. So... It's kinda hard to underastand. Even the didciples didnt nderstand at first.

The Bible says that as we judge others so also we will be judged..

Honestly, do you really think that Jesus will send someone to hell that has never heard his name??? For eternity.

Originally posted by debbiejo
The Bible says that as we judge others so also we will be judged..

Honestly, do you really think that Jesus will send someone to hell that has never heard his name??? For eternity.

The Bible says that when Jesus returns every knee shall bow and proclaim him Lord and Savior, which means to me that everybody will have heard the gospel before the return of Jesus.