Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I had this in another site..But it's only for the brave hearted...

Could all of us Christians be in Babylon?? Do we need to come "Out of Her" This is a one page article..If you look down at the bottom you'll find a surprise.

www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/hi/historicity_of_jesus.htm


Would anyone like to READ IT, and make a comment, BUT, you have to read it for the conversation to make sense...


gathering

Well, this article on the historicity of Jesus is interesting, but it does
seem slanted towards the "no-Jesus" side.

I suppose one can answer it with the Faith-argument.

But also, the article does has some problems I believe (besides its bias).

The articles brings up all sorts or similiarities between the stories about
Jesus, and various pagan cults around the Mediterranea, such as the
worship of Isis and Mithra. But oone can find similarities between almost
any faith and another if one looks hard enough (this icludes for example
the "life-death-ressurection", since death was a universal phenomenon,
it isn't surprising that so many cultures would have stories about someone
coming back from it).I remember even coming across a book on the
similarities between Islam and Taoism.

Furthermore, if the Mystery Religions were so esoteris, how did the
creators of Jesus know of them enough to incorporate into their "creation"?

At one point similarities are brought up between Jesus and the Egyptian
diety Horus. This is something that was brought up in another thread (by
Deano), and which I pointed out was exaggerated:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=330580&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

The Pythagorean analogies are can be argued against in the same way,
if not easier. Finding similarities in numbers is even easier, and as such
is not strong enough to argue influence. Besides, as with the Mystery
Religion, how can the creators of Jesus have known about the inner
beliefs of the Pythagoreanism to be able to incorporate such obscure
references into their fictional figure?

And who are these creators of Jesus? At one point it is argued that Jesus
was created to be a "particularly holy rabbi", which means he was created
by Jews. But if Jews created him, why create him as someone who argued
wioth the Jewish leadership? And why then ignore him and hardly, if ever,
mention him in the other textx (as the article itself points out, Jesus is
hardly mantioned in any Jewish texts)?

Ofcourse, it is known why a real Jesus would be ignored by Jewish
texts, precisely because he antagonized many in the leadershp position, who
often were the ones writing, or knew someone who was writing, the various
historic texts.

Same with the Romans, who ignored Jesus because from their point of view
was an insiginifant trouble-maker.

Gnosticism is quite prominant in this article. I don't know much about it,
but from what I read, they are Christians who also follow beliefs that are not
very Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism). But I was
not able to see the relevance in this article. Apparently it was implied that
they, the Gnostics, have the true knowledge of Christianity, namely that
Jesus was not real and physical, but the point is, they still do believe in
a Jesus, unlike this article which says that he was merely some Platonic
allegory.

One more point: even if Christianity borrowed from other religions, that doesn't
mean that there was no Jesus and followers. All that it could mean is that
various epithets and literary devices used Biblically on him were borrowed.



(Debbie?

Thank you.)

Ya, I do believe there was a Jesus. It's just hard to figure out why some scriptures were put in and why were some left out. I did read that there was a Gospel of Q______ something..I forget. But they call it the Gospel of Q. It was found along with the dead sea scrolls. It is ONLY the words of Jesus and nothing more.. So, there must have been a Jesus, I think. It seems that Mark, Matt. Luke and John all took parts of Q for their writings. The author of the "Lost Gospel of Q" stated that each of the gospels were written later, one after the other and that the Q gospel was written first. The historians feel that Mark, Matt..etc..
had come acrossed it and taken down what was needed for their gospel story...Fact or not, I don't know.

I'm glad you took the time to read the article....I find that this was interesting all the similarities between these religions. There are many more like it that don't include the Jews, but mostly Mithras..etc..

You have some good points..

For me though, there are just too many similar points, like turning water into wine, the bread and the fish, 12 disciples, crucification and resurrection...Could it really be possible that Our Scriptures were taken from an older source???

Interesting about the Gospels Q, which I have to confess I
never heard of until reading your post.

I looked them up:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gosp_q.htm (On what
they are.)

http://www.cygnus-study.com/pageq.html (Has the sayings,
or atleast most of them.)


About the similarities. Some are interesting, some (especially the
numeriacl Pythagorean ones) are a bit stretching it, in my opinion.

Take the number 12, various explanations are offered, about the
significance of the number 12, but it isn't mentioned that 12 is
a number that goes back to the Babylonian/Sumerian numerical
positional system, which was sexagismal (based on 60, as opposed
to the one we use, which is decimal, based on 10), and 60 by
5 is 12.

It is from that system that we get the 24 hours of the day (originally
12 double hours), as well as the 60 seconds and hours, and even
angular degrees.

If there is any background to Jesus' 12 disciples, it is here.


Also, one can make a religious arguments about "influence". One
can always say that the reason why there are similarities is
because these non-Christians knew of some Godly divine concepts,
but intterpreted them in their own pagan way.

An example is the story of Noah and the Flood. There is also the
far older Babylonian legend of Utnapishtim, and the Flood (found in
the Epic of Gilgamesh). Many would say that that was an example of
the Babylonian myth influencing the creation of the Noah story, and
thus the latter was fictional.

BUt a faithful may simply say that there was indeed a Noah
and a great flood, but that the Babylonians, being pagans with no
knowledge of God, interpreted the story and the cause of the Flood
in their own way, but that the later Biblical peoples, being aware
of God, and inspired by Him, knew the truth.

yeah but that argument can be used the other way around also, that the followers of the bible took the epic of Gilgamesh and interprted it to fit their own faith

The thing is that the teachings of Osiris- Dionysus were written at least 2000 before Christ. And they seem to be telling the Christ story.

Maybe.

Though I still question who would in Palestine in the first or
second century AD can have such extensive knowledge of
such varied, and supposedly secret, religions and philosophies
(like Pythagoreanism and Platonism and the cults of Isis and
Mithra) that he or they can collect them all to create a
figure who is hardly mentioned in the contemporary texts
anyway.

That is the question unanswered in that article.

Probably much information was carved in stone, tablets, writings like that besides stories passed down, but that is also how many religions got started..by storytelling, that is. I guess it would be hard to verify any religions beginnings since they all started from verbal stories.

BTW, found an OT site.

True, true.


In the case of Christianity, it is a religion that was persecuted
during it's first few centuries of existence (I believ one of the
earliest cases of such religious persecutions in history), and
so that may have discouraged many form writing down what
they knew.

Besides, literacy was not too common during those times, and
especially earlier, anyway.

literacy is what made religion grow strong

This all goes to show the fiction of the Bible...and any other religion for that matter. Religions are basically politics in sheeps clothing.

Now that's an interesting view. And you could be right to some point.

Arn't we living in the second Babylon. It is no longer just in one place: but world wide. Maybe the entire planet has become Babylon. Or maybe I'm just high.

Maybe we are all living in Babylon...And Babylon is the religious community that sprang from Paganism....

"Fallen Fallen is Babylon the Great?"

Why so?

Simply because it was built in a wrong foundation, wasn't it?

It's the Catholic and Protestant religions that sprang up from Paganism...

True worship is not outward it's inward...It's not physical, but spiritual...It's not a physical heaven or hell, but a spiritual one. It's not connecting with God on a outward appearance, but a inner mind connection...HOW'S That....It's not religion at all, because all can do it! It's not any one rule or denomination, But only God which is Love, Truth, Light.

not true Debbie it is Christ and chritianity for Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light no one comes to the father but through me

Yes, He showed us the way...Look at his sayings and parable with this change...And see if it makes since to you.

This seems interesting, but the article is huge...I'll read it later and throw in my two cents. 'till then.

At least your open to reading it..

Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes...yeah, that's pretty much the world as it stands.

Well, heres a question, If all or most of the Christian religions sprang up from paganism, and that IS Babylon...Then how do you suppose we get out?

We don't....

BTW> Did anybody notice it's supposedly finti's birthday?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY FINTI.

band

Happy B-Day to you.........uuuuuu


I invited all your friends.

devil Here he is....Your friend...lol.


I'm here too..paperbag3 Hope no one recognizes me...

That's mean....

Originally posted by gp christ loves
not true Debbie it is Christ and chritianity for Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light no one comes to the father but through me

You didn't read that at all, did you?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well, heres a question, If all or most of the Christian religions sprang up from paganism, and that IS Babylon...Then how do you suppose we get out?

What do you mean, what is Babylon? Babylon was an ancient Mesopotamian city. There is no need to escape Babylon, it no longer exists.

I think one of the most interesting things that comes from this article is that it takes into consideration the true originals of christianity. Many times, I've heard chrisitians say that there are so many coincidences; that 'god' must have had a hand in it. Well, notice how this article demonstrates that it was the ancient scholars that likely had a greater hand in it? As I said once, a long time ago,(maybe to lil B, I don't remember) all the world is numbers. When was the last time you heard about a christian in the third century predicting an eclipse or a meteor shower? Huh? All of these ancient religions have one thing in common: Logic. The quotes somewhere in the middle truely represent a truth. That for so long, the christians were the lower class, uneducated peasants of the ancient world. Now, there's no doubt that the christians, and the jews before them, were a discriminated class. But, you know, they never accomplished anything real before they were influenced by other religions. Why? In my opinion, because they based their religion of a peasant religion that was content to sit back and let their god do everything for them. Unlike the other religions, jews(and christians after them) were a scared desert people that came up with the concept of gods knowledge being too much for man to comprehend. But, if god used his knowledge and power to create a world we were to live in, and then created us in his own image, why would he not expect us to learn from teh world around us? Well, Jews came up with the idea that if you became as smart as god(ate from the tree of knowledge) that he would use his power to cast you into the lesser world of self awareness and labour. It seems to me that other religions realized we were that to begin with, and tried to better themselves under those conditions. The christians built into their mythology that the desire to better ourselves was the influence of the devil. OOHHH! Spookey eh?

so, as the christian leadership realized that (through the benefit of direct interaction with these higher class "super religions" They realized they had stumbled upon a most fascinating glitch. That their own religion was keeping its followers ignorant. Then, they turned around and said: "Hey, we'll attract more people if we apply the same patterns of other religions in these regions to our own story!" So, christianity is a patch work quilt of other religions. An excellent propoganda tool. A series of syncretisms as the article said.

My basic points in all of this is simple,however. What still exists of all those other religions? All those, antiquated, evil, barbaric religions? The only truth that can be seen in the world around us: Science. And what will eventually happen to the christianity? It will fade away to antiquity, just like the other religions that based their truths on made up stories. The difference? The difference between those other religions, and the more modern religions?(more than just christianity) The contribution of many modern religions is to believe in the equality of man. Unfotunately a practice not many christians follow, but will undoubtedly be one of their legacies to the past. Through books, I would assume.

"The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection."

"continues to spread amongst the vulgar, nay one can even say it spreads because of its vulgarity, and the illiteracy of its adherants. And while there are a few moderate, reasonable, and intelligent people who are inclined to interpret its beliefs allegorically, yet it thrives in its purer form amongst the ignorant"

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well, heres a question, If all or most of the Christian religions sprang up from paganism, and that IS Babylon...Then how do you suppose we get out?
Die.

Seriously.

Where are all the Jesus lovers? Surely they have the patience to get through the article?

Capt. Just so you know, Babylon is used in the prophecy of the end of days..It's tells believers to come out of Babylon ( which mean, come out of the false religious system) So you don't suffer the plagues that God sends upon the earth....Christians like to talk about what Babylon is. But what if it's all the Christian religions that were based on paganism? What would people do...

And feceman...you don't have to die!!! Gee, that's cynical. Just get back to what you think the true worship was...and get out of organized religion.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Capt. Just so you know, Babylon is used in the prophecy of the end of days..It's tells believers to come out of Babylon ( which mean, come out of the false religious system) So you don't suffer the plagues that God sends upon the earth....Christians like to talk about what Babylon is. But what if it's all the Christian religions that were based on paganism? What would people do...

And feceman...you don't have to die!!! Gee, that's cynical. Just get back to what you think the true worship was...and get out of organized religion.

Just so you know, I'm fully aware of how it is used in the christian context. My explaination simply makes more sense.


You read the article didn't you? You understand the progression of Christianity, right? The original christian church is what we call the "Catholic church". The Catholic church ruled christians for a while, then Martin Luther pinned his grievences on teh church door in Germany. Then the protestant churches and the catholic churches continued to splinter until we have all the christian religions. (and the mormons, whatever they are) Basically, all of them are based on pagan religions, according to the article; they just don't all know it.

And Fece is right: If you escape "the end of days", then you have died before they came about.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You didn't read that at all, did you?



What do you mean, what is Babylon? Babylon was an ancient Mesopotamian city. There is no need to escape Babylon, it no longer exists.

Sorry, I was responding to this part of your statement...Thought you didn't understand what was being said about Babylon.

I do understand the whole history of it. All the changes that has probably occured..It could also explain some of the contradictions in the Bible too because of the church tampering with the scriptures.


Also, If God says in scripture. "Come out of her my people", meaning Babylon, I don't think it would be as fece said.

To clarify, I was not telling anyone to die; I was saying that death is the way to leave "Babylon".

So I went from being an ass to being depressing.

Any other alternate personalities you'd like to share?

I still don't get it, If we're in Babylon now...then what are we to do? You could become more Gnostic...or Esoteric.

I was just reading a quote From Pope Leo X, He lived 1513 thru 1531.

He is quoted saying," It was well known how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us."

I think it's possible that the Catholic Church could be keeping a secret from the rest of the world. Why else would Pope Leo X say such a thing????

Debbie, when I said "you didn't read that at all , did you?" I was talking to gp christ loves.

As for Babylon, In regards to avoiding, once again, 'the end of days'..then Fece is right, you'd have to have died before they came about to avoid being there when the 'end of the world' happens.

And christians have been living in the "end of days" since the day after christ ascended into heaven, one has to question the validity of the churches teachings. The first century church taught that christ would return in their generation. Babylon was actually Rome in those days. It's another pitfall in the logic of the church. Every generation is living in 'the end of days'?

Originally posted by debbiejo
I was just reading a quote From Pope Leo X, He lived 1513 thru 1531.

He is quoted saying," It was well known how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us."

I think it's possible that the Catholic Church could be keeping a secret from the rest of the world. Why else would Pope Leo X say such a thing????

Well, I'm sure sarcasm was a big aspect of religious writting back then; pesants had a real ability to read between the lines.

Seriously though, I'd have to see the rest of the text to make a call on what he meant. But, the thing that so many catholics don't seem to comprehend is that for a long time, the church was less about god and more about political power and money. It really was the last world government.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Seriously though, I'd have to see the rest of the text to make a call on what he meant. But, the thing that so many catholics don't seem to comprehend is that for a long time, the church was less about god and more about political power and money. It really was the last world government.
Yeah, it was a shame. And to think they lived in peace with the Muslims for so long...and then "the Catholic Kings" came along .

Originally posted by debbiejo
It's the Catholic and Protestant religions that sprang up from Paganism...

True worship is not outward it's inward...It's not physical, but spiritual...It's not a physical heaven or hell, but a spiritual one. It's not connecting with God on a outward appearance, but a inner mind connection...HOW'S That....It's not religion at all, because all can do it! It's not any one rule or denomination, But only God which is Love, Truth, Light.


I agree that true worship is inward not outward, but God
also demands certain modes of behavior, since He knows
that often times, doing is more difficult that feeling.

For example, a man could geniunely love his wife with all
his heart, thus the inward is pure and good, but he can also
have sex with other women, say prostitutes, because he is
unable to restarin his sexual desires (and maybe she does
not provide much opportunity for him).

In such a case, one can say that though his heart is good,
his deeds aren't, and that he should restrain his actions
along the lines of his heart.

Thus God asks us to have a good heart and soul, but to
also be good to others in our words and actions.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You didn't read that at all, did you?



What do you mean, what is Babylon? Babylon was an ancient Mesopotamian city. There is no need to escape Babylon, it no longer exists.

I think one of the most interesting things that comes from this article is that it takes into consideration the true originals of christianity. Many times, I've heard chrisitians say that there are so many coincidences; that 'god' must have had a hand in it. Well, notice how this article demonstrates that it was the ancient scholars that likely had a greater hand in it? As I said once, a long time ago,(maybe to lil B, I don't remember) all the world is numbers. When was the last time you heard about a christian in the third century predicting an eclipse or a meteor shower? Huh? All of these ancient religions have one thing in common: Logic. The quotes somewhere in the middle truely represent a truth. That for so long, the christians were the lower class, uneducated peasants of the ancient world. Now, there's no doubt that the christians, and the jews before them, were a discriminated class. But, you know, they never accomplished anything real before they were influenced by other religions. Why? In my opinion, because they based their religion of a peasant religion that was content to sit back and let their god do everything for them. Unlike the other religions, jews(and christians after them) were a scared desert people that came up with the concept of gods knowledge being too much for man to comprehend. But, if god used his knowledge and power to create a world we were to live in, and then created us in his own image, why would he not expect us to learn from teh world around us? Well, Jews came up with the idea that if you became as smart as god(ate from the tree of knowledge) that he would use his power to cast you into the lesser world of self awareness and labour. It seems to me that other religions realized we were that to begin with, and tried to better themselves under those conditions. The christians built into their mythology that the desire to better ourselves was the influence of the devil. OOHHH! Spookey eh?

so, as the christian leadership realized that (through the benefit of direct interaction with these higher class "super religions" They realized they had stumbled upon a most fascinating glitch. That their own religion was keeping its followers ignorant. Then, they turned around and said: "Hey, we'll attract more people if we apply the same patterns of other religions in these regions to our own story!" So, christianity is a patch work quilt of other religions. An excellent propoganda tool. A series of syncretisms as the article said.

My basic points in all of this is simple,however. What still exists of all those other religions? All those, antiquated, evil, barbaric religions? The only truth that can be seen in the world around us: Science. And what will eventually happen to the christianity? It will fade away to antiquity, just like the other religions that based their truths on made up stories. The difference? The difference between those other religions, and the more modern religions?(more than just christianity) The contribution of many modern religions is to believe in the equality of man. Unfotunately a practice not many christians follow, but will undoubtedly be one of their legacies to the past. Through books, I would assume.

"The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection."

"continues to spread amongst the vulgar, nay one can even say it spreads because of its vulgarity, and the illiteracy of its adherants. And while there are a few moderate, reasonable, and intelligent people who are inclined to interpret its beliefs allegorically, yet it thrives in its purer form amongst the ignorant"


Three points:

1-The article has faults, and is clearly biased against the Faith.

2-While it is true that early Israelites were desert peoples, the
same is not true of early Christians.

3-Your view that the pagan religions are more open to the
sciences and were the provier of the intellectual impetus to
the Christians (and I assume Muslims as well) is flawed.

The fact is, not all pagan peoples were able to predict
an eclipe of meteor shower. many stayed in the same state
of "ignorance" and the early Christians. And if they eventually
did, it was only after coming in contact with those pagan
cultures that did predict eclipses and develope accurate
caelndars, like the Babylonians for example.

Even the Greeks did not enagge in such worldly intellectual
endeavours until they came across the knowledge of the
older societies to the east of them.

In other words, while it is true that Christians did not care
much for science and other such intellectual pursuits, until
they came encountered the greeks, the same can be said
of the Greeks vis-a-vis the Egyptians and Babylonians, or
the Romans vis-a-vis the Greeks, and so on.

Many peoples got the impetus for seeking wroldly
knowledge from outside.

Originally posted by King Burger
Three points:

1-The article has faults, and is clearly biased against the Faith.

You consider them faults, I consider them strengths.

Originally posted by King Burger
2-While it is true that early Israelites were desert peoples, the
same is not true of early Christians.

Absolutely they were. Their mission was to crawl out of the desert and spread to every corner of the Roman Empire.

Originally posted by King Burger
3-Your view that the pagan religions are more open to the
sciences and were the provier of the intellectual impetus to
the Christians (and I assume Muslims as well) is flawed.


The fact is, not all pagan peoples were able to predict
an eclipe of meteor shower. many stayed in the same state
of "ignorance" and the early Christians. And if they eventually
did, it was only after coming in contact with those pagan
cultures that did predict eclipses and develope accurate
caelndars, like the Babylonians for example.

Even the Greeks did not enagge in such worldly intellectual
endeavours until they came across the knowledge of the
older societies to the east of them.

In other words, while it is true that Christians did not care
much for science and other such intellectual pursuits, until
they came encountered the greeks, the same can be said
of the Greeks vis-a-vis the Egyptians and Babylonians, or
the Romans vis-a-vis the Greeks, and so on.

Many peoples got the impetus for seeking wroldly
knowledge from outside.

Where did I say that all pagan religions were as advanced as those that were the most advanced? My point is that Jews and Christians after them decided to be one of those less advanced religions. They worked out because they were propogated by ignorance. They feed on their followers stupidity. And, there was never any greek influence on the early christians. The Greek empire was no more. They had been absorbed by the Roman empire.

Every culture has it's foundations in other societies. The Egyptians being an anomoly, because they developed for the most part, independant of other cultures. Egypt, just like Greece, was a group of city states that were unified under one flag. This is when so many ideas from different aspects of one super culture became one group of ideas or philosophy. Egypt, was intertwined city states unified by Menes and became the longest lasting culture in history.

My point about the christians is that they made a concerted effort to deny that they were influenced by other cultures and religions. FFS, it was based on the Jewish culture and religion, which in turn was based on an amalgam of other religions in the region. That's why we have contradictory teachings in the old and new testaments of the bible. My point is that they continued with the theme of theri followers stupidity. All religion is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of god and fear of what is in the world around us. I wonder, what is there to fear?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You consider them faults, I consider them strengths.

You consider bias "strength"?

You consider making exaggerated, and in s me cases wrong,
statements "strenght"?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Where did I say that all pagan religions were as advanced as those that were the most advanced? My point is that Jews and Christians after them decided to be one of those less advanced religions. They worked out because they were propogated by ignorance. They feed on their followers stupidity. And, there was never any greek influence on the early christians. The Greek empire was no more. They had been absorbed by the Roman empire.

Every culture has it's foundations in other societies. The Egyptians being an anomoly, because they developed for the most part, independant of other cultures. Egypt, just like Greece, was a group of city states that were unified under one flag. This is when so many ideas from different aspects of one super culture became one group of ideas or philosophy. Egypt, was intertwined city states unified by Menes and became the longest lasting culture in history.

My point about the christians is that they made a concerted effort to deny that they were influenced by other cultures and religions. FFS, it was based on the Jewish culture and religion, which in turn was based on an amalgam of other religions in the region. That's why we have contradictory teachings in the old and new testaments of the bible. My point is that they continued with the theme of theri followers stupidity. All religion is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of god and fear of what is in the world around us. I wonder, what is there to fear?


You knowledge of history is clearly as weak as your ability to
argue.

I stated they were influenced by the Greeks, as in the Greek
thinkers and philosophers. That is still possible regardless of
which empire was ruling the area.

And if you want to get technical, there was no "Greek Empire",
only a Macedonian one.

Ancient Egypt was a collection of city-states? Ridiculous! What
Menes, or Narmer, united was not "city-states", but two tribal
kingdoms, Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt. Egypt was never
in its entire history, broken into city-states.


"Feed on their followers stupidity"? Ah yes, we are all sheep,
save the atheist intellectuals giants like yourself!


"All religion is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of god
and fear of what is in the world around us." you're just turning
out those cliches like sausages, aren't you? But wait?! Where's
the "most wars are the result of religion" statement?! How can
you miss that one!

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Absolutely they were. Their mission was to crawl out of the desert and spread to every corner of the Roman Empire.

"crawl"? You mean like how you did from underneath the
slimy rock you came from? That kind of crawl? Or some
other thing?

Look away from sea
I can take you anywhere.
Spend a vision with me
A chase with the wind.

Move close to me
I can make you anyone
I think you're ready to see
The gates of Babylon

The power of what has been before
Rises to trap you within
A magic carpet ride a genie may be more
A city of heavenly sin
Sleep with the devil and then you must pay
Sleep with the devil the devil will take you away
Oh Gates of Babylon

You can see but you're blind
Someone turned the sun around
But you can see in your mind
The Gates of Babylon

You're riding the endless caravan
Bonded and sold as a slave
A sabre dance removing all the veils
Getting as good as you gave
Sleep with the devil and then you must pay
Sleep with the devil the devil will take you away

The power of what has been before
Rises to trap you within
A magic carpet ride a genie may be more
A city of heavenly sin
Sleep with the devil and then you must pay
Sleep with the devil the devil will take you away
Black Gates of Babylon

The devil is me
And I'm holding the key
To the gates of sweet hell Babylon - Rainbow`s Gates Of Babylon

arabiaband

Originally posted by King Burger
You consider bias "strength"?

You consider making exaggerated, and in s me cases wrong,
statements "strenght"?

By all means, disprove any of the statements in the article. The article was written in the basis of most ancient history. Theories. The coincidence of numbers. But I'm sure someone as enlightened as yourself would attribute those coincidences to gods master plan.




Originally posted by King Burger
You knowledge of history is clearly as weak as your ability to
argue.
Argue? No one is arguing. We're bringing our beliefs to the table. And it's hard to dispute the facts that our history is based on.

Originally posted by King Burger
I stated they were influenced by the Greeks, as in the Greek
thinkers and philosophers. That is still possible regardless of
which empire was ruling the area.

And I'm sure christianity accepted the philosophies of freedom and equitable government, right?


Originally posted by King Burger
And if you want to get technical, there was no "Greek Empire",
only a Macedonian one.
The proper term "Greek empire" was the unification of many city states by the Athenean hierarchy, under the Delian league. Many felt that they were tyranical rulers, however. There was a revolt, which was repeatedly put down by the Athenians. All attepmpts were unsuccesful until the Persians stepped in and began to fund the "civil war". Eventually the league was dissolved. The macedonian, Alexander, united all the city states. Later the Macedonian Empire was born, which we all know went on to rule the most of the known world. The philospohy you refer to began during the "first" Greek Empire.

Originally posted by King Burger
Ancient Egypt was a collection of city-states? Ridiculous! What
Menes, or Narmer, united was not "city-states", but two tribal
kingdoms, Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt. Egypt was never
in its entire history, broken into city-states.

Yeah, two kingdoms, I'm simply using the term city state as a continuation of the above theme. Unification into empires. In fact, the most early forms of egyptian art depict Menes clubbing the heads of the governors of the cities of these two kingdoms. These two kingdoms were establish from many different cities that had been established by the early bedouin tribes which were believed to have migrated to the area from the west, from the eastern parts of the Sahara desert.


Originally posted by King Burger
"Feed on their followers stupidity"? Ah yes, we are all sheep,
save the atheist intellectuals giants like yourself!

I'm sure you would be ignorant if you lived in the days of early christianity, which I assumed was what we were talking about.


Originally posted by King Burger
"All religion is based on fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of god
and fear of what is in the world around us." you're just turning
out those cliches like sausages, aren't you? But wait?! Where's
the "most wars are the result of religion" statement?! How can
you miss that one!

I don't include your last example because I'm aware that war isn't always started over religion. In fact, few wars have ever been started over religion. In fact, religion is often the RESULT of war. Or at least the spread of religions.



Originally posted by King Burger
"crawl"? You mean like how you did from underneath the
slimy rock you came from? That kind of crawl? Or some
other thing?

Yes, I did crawl out from under a slimy rock. I developed lungs that breath air. Then I evolved legs and arms. And then the ability to walk upright. And opposable thumbs. And then I invented religion, and it was all down hill from there.

Come on, guys, let's play nice.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Yeah, it was a shame. And to think they lived in peace with the Muslims for so long...and then "the Catholic Kings" came along .

At one time in Rome, there were many religions and it was quite a peaceful time..All religions were welcome...And it worked for everyone.


The Holy Roman Empire was all about control...They forced the people to buy it or else...It's strange that the only time Jesus was mentioned was in the gospels...You would think that someone else would of mentioned his miracles and such. It was considered big news wasn't it. And don't mention Josephus, because from what I've seen. There is only one small paragraph inserted in the midst of another topic..and so it was added later...And Oriegn (sp?) had an earlier copy of Josephus writings and that little statement wasn't included in there. Also Eusibius (sp?) quoted from Josephus quite often and never quoted the little paragraph that was inserted later about Jesus...Though I do believe in Jesus, I feel the church purposely changed the story making Him the messiah to bring in the Jews...Of course the Jews didn't buy it. And still don't to this day...