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Campaigns are in full swing.

Tories are scaring people.

Labour are pointing at Tories and laughing.

Liberals are stumbling

Greens are being ignored

thank goodness I live in Scotland and can vote for the Scottish National Party. Independence is the way forward I tells ya!

a vote for the SNP is a vote you might as well chuck in the bin...

I wonder why

jaden: care to explain?

Because he is right, the chances of that happening are very small

Am I right in thinking that the LIberals are trying to appeal to the young with their "no tuition fees" gambit?

I think it's absolutely rediculous that other people would have to put the youth through University. People already think (incorrectly) that students are a leech on society, if grants come in and higher taxes pay for it, it'll only make that horrible stereotypical image of a student that bit more real. I don't want to put someone elses kid through University. What about people who don't even have kids? Why should they foot the bill?

And their arguemnet is that with tuition fees, it means some kids cant go to Uni, even though they are qualified - bullshit. I carried a job on top of Uni. It's easy juggling the two. Making the yearly tuition fees isn't hard. Not only that, but you get student loans, and if you have less than favourable circumstances, you are given more!

The system works. It may mean kids are in debt, but at least it makes them get off their backside and get a job, juggle the hassles of the real world while at uni, and learn to be more responsible with money. Giving students a free ride through Uni would make Uni seem like a cop out. I'm totally against this. Students should accept the responsibility and pay for themselves I think. I hate the idea of me having to pay for my tuition fees now, saving my parents having to pay my way, only for them to be made to pay for someone elses kid to go through Uni with tax.

It's just a cold hearted and transparent, and desperate attempt for popularity on behalf of the liberals. So I hear.

I wouldn't trust the Tories as far as I could throw em.

So, Labour it is, for me.

UK students have always been ridiculously vocal about tuition fees. In fact what they pay is relatively minute by higer education standards. They don't know how lucky they are.

Students just tend to moan in general. Come to think of it, so does everyone.

I am a Tory voter by default but they have just been so appallingly crap lately that I have bugger all confidence, and little disposition to put a vote in for them.

IMO those seeking education should not have to pay for it. I do not expect the government to subsidise students' living costs through grants, but I do think that there should not be tuition fees in any form.

In the long run it is better for the nation to ENCOURAGE people to complete a degree. Those with a degree earn, on average, more than those without a degree. Thus they pay more tax than those without a degree and will more than pay for their degree over their life.

Ush: New Labour is near enough Tory anyway.

I really don't see why not. There are hospitals and emergency services and, for that matter, Primary and Secondary schools that need Government money a hell of a lot more than Unis do. Higher Education is not a basic right- if you want it, pay for it; don't expect for someone else to pay for you.

OMG anyone but Labour, anyone but Labour ANYONE but Labour!!!

It's going to be Labour.

Oh go on, ruin it for me....

Yeah, I've arranged it just to annoy people. Sorry!

Ush: I suppose it depends on what you see as basic rights.

If something costs money it automatically limits the number of people who can use it. In my opinion education shouldn't be limited by cost.

What, all education? I really can't see that with Higher education- certainly not for taxpayers to foot the bill. It's not a basic service that HAS to be provided. As it is, it is VERY heavily subsidised.

Yep, all education. The thing is LONG TERM the student is the tax payer who as a result of getting a higher wage because of his education pays more taxes and so sustains the system that got him what he has.

My masters is gonna cost me shit loads. Im gonna be in debt for a very long time...

well, i never even knew when the british election was taking place, but then im not in england at the moment so i guess i wouldnt know. ill be sure to follow it now then.

Interesting to know, but im not going to pretend i know anything about it, so im going to leave now.

going back to the tuition fees...i find it shockingly hypocritical that the people who made the decision ti implement them are the same people who benefited from a free university education themselves...yet they will happily deny it to others now...it seems like a method of reinstalling massive class divide...those who can afford to go to the best universities can...and those who can even afford to go to the crap universities dont...even if they are the more intelligent

going back to baracustatic's point about tax

we are already the most highly taxed nation in the EU...and relatively we have some of the poorest public services

where does the money go...

total the number of scottish MSP's with the number of MP's and the number of MEP's then we are hitting 700-800 people...to bring in legislation for a country of 50million...talk about overkill...

think about this...we pay on average 70% more council tax per household...yet 3 inches of snow can bring the country to its knees because most of the gritters and ploughs have been scraped...it takes an eternity to get a broken street light fixed....or a lift in a council run multi story block of flats repaired when it breaks down

not to mention the absolutely gigantic sums of money that get wasted on pointless jobs in the public sector

a great example of which being the fact that 2 days after saddam was overthrown in iraq...the government in its almighty wisdom sent over to iraq the much need...GENDER EQUALITY CO-ORDINATORS to make sure that iraqi women got a fair deal...these 2 people got paid about 60 grand a year each...soldiers get a quarter of thatb amount

Originally posted by baracustastic
Yep, all education. The thing is LONG TERM the student is the tax payer who as a result of getting a higher wage because of his education pays more taxes and so sustains the system that got him what he has.

Well, saying 'all education' is just nonsense. I don't see why I should have to pay tax money towards someone who takes Pilates or Crochet classes at a community college, which is never going to beneift anyomne other than the hobbies of the person concerned. And saying that students get higher wages and so end up paying higher taxes is a. making an assumption that education equals better pay, which only works with a very narrow part of education, and b. assuming that paying taxes later in life is a reason to get hand outs in advance, which simply defies economic sense. Besides which, you can just flip that around and say that if they are going to get paid more, then they will easily make back the cost of their education, so they don't need the earlier handout.

You have to start defining what sort of education you mean for your point to even begin to make sense. However, once you o that you'll find it is impossible to actually hammer down what is or is not 'useful' Higher or Further education.

" like a method of reinstalling massive class divide...those who can afford to go to the best universities can...and those who can even afford to go to the crap universities dont...even if they are the more intelligent"

Nonsensical scare-mongering. No-one will ever not go to university because they can't afford it. Only those who can afford it pay tuition fees, and in any case everyone can get an interest-free loan to cover the costs and pay it back at their leisure later, which is far more sensible than trying to work out some obscure "hopefully they will pay more tax later" idea.


Anyway- this is all totally academic, because no-one- NO-ONE- is going to raise the taxes needed to eliminate tuution fees- the Lib Dems may bluster, but let them waste their time doing so. They are here to stay. Damn good thing too. The idea you should get that kind of thing for free is absurd. As I say, it is already massively subsidised, and you can get the money loaned to you in advance for NO cost to pay back when you can. It is already a superbly generous system and I cannot see any reasonable cause for complaint.

Post-compulsory education should NOT be funded by the taxpayer unless it is an essential skill (i.e. Literacy and Numeracy). Simple as that, and that is how it is always going to be.

Originally posted by jaden101
it seems like a method of reinstalling massive class divide...those who can afford to go to the best universities can...and those who can even afford to go to the crap universities dont...even if they are the more intelligent

And that is exactly what it is. There are plenty of people who do not have parents of middle class that have the brains and the ambition to finish university, yet the tuition fees do not allow this.

I consider myself lucky to have the oppertunity to go to university and soon I will be going for my masters, as many people who are as gifted as me and more do not have the opertunity due to not haveing the money to pay for education.

Its sad, but true.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
UK students have always been ridiculously vocal about tuition fees. In fact what they pay is relatively minute by higer education standards. They don't know how lucky they are.
Imo, the United Kingdom has a relatively high tuition fee.

Here's my very poor (but honest) reason for voting Labour this time round: -



Gordon Brown was the only politician approached to agree to do an interview on soccer-am, called "what I know about football". He's a man of the people!

Hes a moron.

Sorry but myself and almost every other student who votes will vote against labour.

Lazy bloody students, get a job and stop mooching offa society... and stop listening to the Levellers too!



Seriously though, even as a student myself I think we should pay for higher education. The more you learn, the more you earn: so we should pay for the privilege.

Originally posted by mechmoggy
Seriously though, even as a student myself I think we should pay for higher education. The more you learn, the more you earn: so we should pay for the privilege.

...and the working class will never get the chance to earn that kind of money because they cannot aford to send their kid to university no mater how gifted.

Wait....you mean....the British have an election?


Damn...and here I am thinking they just put whoever Bush wanted into power...

Plot thickens

Originally posted by Linkalicious
Wait....you mean....the British have an election?


Damn...and here I am thinking they just put whoever Bush wanted into power...

Plot thickens Nope, you're confusing Britain with America...in America its whoever Bush wants into power...in this case, his son.

I wouldn't call it an election.

A bunch of morons contesting to who has political control of the country and we're forced to vote for a lesser of two or more evils.

-AC

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
...and the working class will never get the chance to earn that kind of money because they cannot aford to send their kid to university no mater how gifted.

Not every Uni will hike their prices up that high, they'll price themselves out of any business. Only the elite Uni's will take the pish with their prices, but then people getting a qualification from those Uni's will get highly paid jobs when they leave.

I sometimes think that Uni these days has become an excuse to leave home and drink heavily for 3-4 years before having to be responisble.

Anyway, what's wrong with doing it the true working class way of working and studying part time, like me?

bottom line: CHARGING MONEY FOR SOMETHNG LIMITS THOSE WHO CAN USE IT!

This is a bad thing! It doesn't allow the nation to make the most of it's human resources.

Very true.... very true.