Non-Biased Attack.

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Cosmic_Beings

Alpha Centauri
It's a bit crap that these morons are shouting out things like "Black Power" and "Martin Luther King". Two things that don't constitute beating up white folks.

Infact, you think if they knew who King was, they'd not have done it.

-AC

KharmaDog
I'm sure MLK would be proud. Idiot kids. The world is going down the sh*tter.

Fishy
If white people would have done that they would have been arrested for hate crimes

PVS
well, society in general is so terrified of being labeled racists that they(we) overlook blatently evil acts such as this...and why? if they were screaming 'white power' and beating up minorities, nobody would have a problem in calling it what it is....evil.

i have thought long on this very topic of gang violence and reluctance of police/media/general population to call it what it is out of fear of being called racists...as if gangs are the keystone of minority culture and should be respected like some damn religion...which in itself is completely racist when you think about it.

nonbias crime? perfect example. that cop probably shit his pants at the thought of having to file the report for this incident. so what did he do? he pussied out, and did the 'politically correct' thing........lie through his teeth.

f*** gangs. if you're in one you are a scumbag.

KidRock
Originally posted by Fishy
If white people would have done that they would have been arrested for hate crimes

If white people would have done that al sharpton would be screaming RACIST RACIST and the whole country would be going crazy over this hate crime, but since its black on white its no problem.

There is so much more black on white racism around my area then white on black its not even funny.

PVS
Originally posted by KidRock
There is so much more black on white racism around my area then white on black its not even funny.

well, good thing you are there to level the playing field

finti
black or white doesnt matter these are events no teens should eperience regardless skin color. Non Biased attack well I dont know, to me it seems like teens being teens, sometimes teens are totally igorant towards what they really do.

Fishy
No this is a hate crime, i don't care about skin color or whatever, but its just a proven fact that minorities can do more things that would border racism or intolerance then the other way around, which might be logical but doesn't really help to improve the situation.

And here they are 30 black people screaming things like black power and what not then beating some up white people..

Would whites have been screaming Heil Hitler and White pride world wide they would have been arrested for hate crimes and would be in jail, now i do agree that i don't really think this has anything to do with Racism but more with being cool or whatever. The fact just is would it have been the other way around it would have been a hate crime

KidRock
Originally posted by PVS
well, good thing you are there to level the playing field


Its just to bad I am not a racist, isnt it? But you live in your own little world PVS so enjoy.

finti
yet you just posted a post with racial undertones

KidRock
Originally posted by finti
yet you just posted a post with racial undertones

Please explain how my post makes me a RACIST.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by finti
black or white doesnt matter these are events no teens should eperience regardless skin color. Non Biased attack well I dont know, to me it seems like teens being teens, sometimes teens are totally igorant towards what they really do.

Teens are ignorant and act out their true feelings (in this case racism) without thinking of the consequenses. Yes, it was racism, don't deny it. Black power, white crackers, 30 black people beating up four white girls... come on now.

Fishy
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Teens are ignorant and act out their true feelings (in this case racism) without thinking of the consequenses. Yes, it was racism, don't deny it. Black power, white crackers, 30 black people beating up four white girls... come on now.

Is it?

I know plenty of people here that act like racists, but have plenty of black friends and Muslim friends and whatever. They wear Londsdale clothing (laat ons nederlanders samen die allochtonen langzaam executren) which is dutch for some stupid thing about killing foreigners... (well actually some idiots just said it meant that and since then it did). Its mostly however a being stupid thing, they have absolutly nothing against foreigners or blacks or whatever.

Just as the same could be going on here, only with such a large group things can get out of hand much easier

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Teens are ignorant and act out their true feelings (in this case racism) without thinking of the consequenses. Yes, it was racism, don't deny it. Black power, white crackers, 30 black people beating up four white girls... come on now.

100% agreement here

if we as a society turn a blind eye to one side, the problem will just get worse.
like i said, to allow this shit to go on out of fear of being labeled a racist...is racist. as an officer of the law, it is his duty to report what happened, not to report a nicer PC version of what happened so that no minorities will be offended. if you allow race to be a factor in deciding what will be the spoken truth....well thats frikin racist.

i call every one of those teens gutter trash scumbags. does that make me a racist? i would call them the same if they were white and their victims were black.

Jackie Malfoy

Fishy
Of course thats because they are, and i'm not saying this wasn't a racist attack. But i don't think they intendend it to be one.

Or maybe its just because i don't live in the US and can't actually imagine people acting like that, as it hardly ever happends here.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
Ok so when did this happen?jm confused

Read the second sentence of the article.

finti
I said your post had racial undertones I didnt say you were a racist.

to me it sounds like some pouting teens who didnt get it their way who came back with a vengance that went out of control, according to how it is described they sound racial, but the use of MLK really tells that these teens were kind of blank on what they really did. The just blurted out the first thing that came to their mind a spontanious action that turned into a more racial one

KharmaDog
Originally posted by Jackie Malfoy
Ok so when did this happen?jm confused

CHRIST ON A CRUTCH CHILD IT SAYS " THE MARCH 30TH ATTACK" RIGHT IN THE DAMN ARTICLE!

PVS
Originally posted by Fishy
Of course thats because they are, and i'm not saying this wasn't a racist attack. But i don't think they intendend it to be one.

Or maybe its just because i don't live in the US and can't actually imagine people acting like that, as it hardly ever happends here.

well let me briefly explain.

according to those 'teens' (gangbanger scumbags) that park is 'their' park.
its a territory thing. so, according to them, those girls should have kissed their ass and run out of the park out of respect, because lord knows they deserve respect roll eyes (sarcastic)

so when that didnt happen, they ran their cowardly asses to their friends and said something along the lines of "these *insert racial slur* wont get the f*** off of our court. lets go stomp these *insert racial slur*

and thats pretty much how it works here

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by finti

to me it sounds like some pouting teens who didnt get it their way who came back with a vengance that went out of control, according to how it is described they sound racial, but the use of MLK really tells that these teens were kind of blank on what they really did. The just blurted out the first thing that came to their mind a spontanious action that turned into a more racial one

Oh, ok. So since they decided to be racist spontaniously instead of planning it out, they weren't racist? Gotcha.

finti
what did those parents say to this gorup of teens before they ran away to collect some more friends, it might have been something that triggered that reaction we read about

Capt_Fantastic
Well, maybe the police didn't want to report this as a hate crime because the backlash could be quite substantial. But what makes no sense is that they would specifically say: "This was not a hate crime". When it clearly is a hate crime. It's just like I always say, maybe gays should start beating straight couples the way gay couples get beaten. But if that were to actually happen, the backlash would be out of control. Gay people would be beaten in the streets by the dozens.

The other thing that going on with this is that people actually think that it's impossible for blacks to be racist. And then when they get around to accepting that they can be racist, those people think it's justified racism.

Fishy
Originally posted by PVS
well let me briefly explain.

according to those 'teens' (gangbanger scumbags) that park is 'their' park.
its a territory thing. so, according to them, those girls should have kissed their ass and run out of the park out of respect, because lord knows they deserve respect roll eyes (sarcastic)

so when that didnt happen, they ran their cowardly asses to their friends and said something along the lines of "these *insert racial slur* wont get the f*** off of our court. lets go stomp these *insert racial slur*

and thats pretty much how it works here

If thats how it works then something is seriously wrong with those teens...

PVS
not necessarily finti.
i know it doesnt make sense but thats the way it is.

that adult could have said "im sorry sir/ma'am, but my kids were here first, and if you dont mind, would it be ok for them to just finish their game and you can come back later and play? thank you so much for understanding" and they still would have gotten stomped.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by finti
what did those parents say to this gorup of teens before they ran away to collect some more friends, it might have been something that triggered that reaction we read about

If they did say anything at all, they would go to jail for racism, and it would be all over the news. They most likely told them that the girls were there first and that they would have to wait their turn. You know how it is.... the black kids came up to the white girls and tried to punk them off the court, but the adults intervened.

Ketchuptome

Fishy
So your honestly telling me, that a bunch of kinds all under the age of 16 get so pissed of for no real reason except for somebody politly telling them to go away that they decide to beat up a few girls?

Makes perfect sense

PVS
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
The other thing that going on with this is that people actually think that it's impossible for blacks to be racist. And then when they get around to accepting that they can be racist, those people think it's justified racism.

almost true. the real truth is that everyone knows that blacks can be just as racist as whites, but people refuse to point that out. its sad.

PVS
Originally posted by Fishy
So your honestly telling me, that a bunch of kinds all under the age of 16 get so pissed of for no real reason except for somebody politly telling them to go away that they decide to beat up a few girls?

Makes perfect sense

you are looking for sense in this? you can believe it or not. there is what you believe and there is the truth. i speak the truth. its the way it is here

Fishy
Originally posted by PVS
you are looking for sense in this? you can believe it or not. there is what you believe and there is the truth. i speak the truth. its the way it is here

Then your country is seriously ****ed up..

Oh and btw you don't know if you speak the truth, unles you know something more about this story then i do, but i doubt it

finti
or they could have just a language that triggered the reaction of the teens.
even so it doesnt make sense it shouldnt have happened but it did. Hate crime or not, it is events teens shouldnt participate in or experience

PVS
Originally posted by Fishy
Then your country is seriously ****ed up..

Oh and btw you don't know if you speak the truth, unles you know something more about this story then i do, but i doubt it

i wasnt pointing out the 'truth' of the incident, but of gang mentality.
that is why im sure that such a coarse of events is completely believable.
of coarse, the truth of that incident is anyones call

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by PVS
almost true. the real truth is that everyone knows that blacks can be just as racist as whites, but people refuse to point that out. its sad.

not much of a difference, you know

Fishy
I must be going insane then, but why the hell would such young children join a gang? Well nevermind that... Its just a bunch of speculation from this point.

We don't really know the reason they attacked

Julie
Wow....sad story sad story.....bad days very very bad days

manny321
One of odd friends said"What comes around go around is the way i see it. If you make fun of a group in past they hate you back latter."

NOT my opinion!
Wait i thought the laws were in NOrth america that hate groups can do public protest on the streets but no one the waves.

Capt_Fantastic
I'm sorry, could you say that again?

PVS
Originally posted by Fishy
I must be going insane then, but why the hell would such young children join a gang? Well nevermind that... Its just a bunch of speculation from this point.

We don't really know the reason they attacked

its a mindf*** really, since in such an environment, it seems almost essential for a kid to join a gang...to avoid being a victim...but in the end many become victims anyway. its a big catch22.

PVS
Originally posted by Fishy
Then your country is seriously ****ed up..

Oh and btw you don't know if you speak the truth, unles you know something more about this story then i do, but i doubt it

i have 2 family mambers who are cops in 2 major NJ cities which of coarse contain ghettos and gangs within those ghettos...well one just retired. they have to deal with this shit day in and day out and i get to hear all about it whenever i see them...not that i have a choice.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by finti
or they could have just a language that triggered the reaction of the teens.
even so it doesnt make sense it shouldnt have happened but it did. Hate crime or not, it is events teens shouldnt participate in or experience


You said that a few times already. While it is true that the violence shouldn't happen regardless of racism or not, it makes it a lot worse. It's kind of like saying 'Whether you steal a cookie or steal a diamond, you shouldn't steal regardless'.

Racism is one thing, beating up four girls (30 black gang members beating up four white girls? You just can't say it's not racism.) is another. This is a combination of both.

PVS
that saddest thing is that a vast majority of the population of these ghettos feel the same way about these gangs as those on the outside. difference is we see it in the news and they see it out their windows.

and recently, thanks to popular culture...gangs are all over the frikin place. even gangs of white kids in white suburbia. so forget about pinning this on blacks.

Julie
yes, most criminals do become victims

botankus
Originally posted by Fishy
If white people would have done that they would have been arrested for hate crimes

If white people would have even written a book about it, they would have been arrested for hate crimes.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by PVS
well let me briefly explain.

according to those 'teens' (gangbanger scumbags) that park is 'their' park.

its a territory thing. so, according to them, those girls should have kissed their ass and run out of the park out of respect, because lord knows they deserve respect roll eyes (sarcastic)

so when that didnt happen, they ran their cowardly asses to their friends and said something along the lines of "these *insert racial slur* wont get the f*** off of our court. lets go stomp these *insert racial slur*

and thats pretty much how it works here

This is not a hate crime because these girls were not beaten because they are white. Had the girls been black, they would have received the same treament, only instead of being called "crackers," the would have been called something else.

PVS
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This is not a hate crime because these girls were not beaten because they are white. Had the girls been black, they would have received the same treament, only instead of being called "crackers," the would have been called something else.

hmmmmm....good point


however, hypothetical circumstances aside, since they WERE screaming racial slurs, its a bias crime.

PVS
forgot to add:

once again i agree--if they were black and refused to get off the court they would have been stomped...BUT...there is also the events which took place between the time the kids left the court and came back with an angry mob.

that is where the line was crossed into bias-land i think. you have to ask "what did those kids say to everyone else that got them so riled up". did they evoke feelings of terriroriality? doubt it. did they evoke feelings of racism and hatred for white people? i would bet the farm on that.

so it started out as nonbias and became bias as a result of what those kids did/said to cause that riot.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This is not a hate crime because these girls were not beaten because they are white. Had the girls been black, they would have received the same treament, only instead of being called "crackers," the would have been called something else.

No, if it had been four black girls, they would have just rapped them.

PVS
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
No, if it had been four black girls, they would have just rapped them.

What the f**k? what was that? something just flew out the window confused

must have been your credibility roll eyes (sarcastic)

Capt_Fantastic
No, it was your sense of humor.

KharmaDog
I can criticize alot of things, but PVS' sense of humour ain't one of them. That dude kills me. What you said did reflect pretty bad on you Fantastic.

Linkalicious
Originally posted by PVS
that is where the line was crossed into bias-land i think. you have to ask "what did those kids say to everyone else that got them so riled up". did they evoke feelings of terriroriality? doubt it. did they evoke feelings of racism and hatred for white people? i would bet the farm on that.

Actually since adults intervened and told the other girls to wait their turn....I don't think the girls really said anything at all. I bet the girls that were told to wait their turn were just flat out pissed because they didn't get their way...and their was an adult to enforce it.

Capt_Fantastic
Thanks all, but I don't need everyone to chastise me for speaking to my boyfriend.

PVS
Originally posted by Linkalicious
Actually since adults intervened and told the other girls to wait their turn....I don't think the girls really said anything at all. I bet the girls that were told to wait their turn were just flat out pissed because they didn't get their way...and their was an adult to enforce it.

perhaps you quoted the wrong post, but just in case you didnt,
i was not refering to what the adults or white girls said.

the teens left the park and came back with a mob. you have to get a mob worked up and motivate them to riot, right? so what did those teens say to their peers to get them so damn angry? that was my point

PVS
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Thanks all, but I don't need everyone to chastise me for speaking to my boyfriend.

hey, i find nothing wrong with a twisted sense of humor, but there is a time and a place for everything and this isnt the time or place. what kind of reaction do you think i would get if i posted 'dead baby' jokes in the abortion thread?

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by PVS
hey, i find nothing wrong with a twisted sense of humor, but there is a time and a place for everything and this isnt the time or place. what kind of reaction do you think i would get if i posted 'dead baby' jokes in the abortion thread?

Actually, I think I have posted dead baby jokes in the abortion thread.

PVS
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Actually, I think I have posted dead baby jokes in the abortion thread.

no expression















laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

finti
so?

Linkalicious
Originally posted by PVS
perhaps you quoted the wrong post, but just in case you didnt,
i was not refering to what the adults or white girls said.

the teens left the park and came back with a mob. you have to get a mob worked up and motivate them to riot, right? so what did those teens say to their peers to get them so damn angry? that was my point

bleh...probably just said some "honkey ass white b*tches are on our court, lets go scare the sh!t out of them"

Then things probably got out of hand. I don't imagine they actually thought to bring 30 people strictly for the purpose of kicking 4 girls asses. I just think one person probably took it too far and then everyone got carried away.

BackFire
Curbed, all of them.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Linkalicious
bleh...probably just said some "honkey ass white b*tches are on our court, lets go scare the sh!t out of them"

Then things probably got out of hand. I don't imagine they actually thought to bring 30 people strictly for the purpose of kicking 4 girls asses. I just think one person probably took it too far and then everyone got carried away.

I guess thats why they call it a "gang mentality"

King Burger
I agree with Adam_PoE, even if the girls were black, they would've
been beaten anyway. The fact that they were white just meant
that the thugs could racialize it.

In other words, I don't think race started the attack, but it helped
heat it up.



Oh, and this "hate crime" idea is nonesense. There shouldn't even
be such a term in the law. Who knows what's in the assailant's head?
Remember the russian (?) kid who shot Bill Cosby's son? Many in
the black community (including mrs. Cosby) said it was racism.
Nonesense ofcourse, he was shot because he was driving a fancy car.

Besdies, no crime should be seen as worse because the perpetrator
was motivated by race as opposed to other factors. Would having a
friend murdered because of his wallet make it less criminal than if he
was murdered because of his race?

PVS
ok, lets all read the article again.

its plain to see that it started as non bias and became bias. either:

-the second those kids ran home and got an angry mob together,
it became racist.

or

-if that adult made a racist remark to those teens, THEN it became racially fueled

regardless of who pulled the race card, it happened. how could it be any more blatant? its elementary ffs. in fact, what the adult said is inconcequential in whether or not it was a bias crime. whether he/she said racial slurs or politely asked the kids to let the girls play, the fact stands that racism was involved. racism started that riot. thats what drove those kids mad, not some freaking basketball court.

those kids ran back to their friends and got them stirred up enough that 30 of them came back screaming racial slurs. like i brought up before, what do you think those people were told? do you think they had no idea those girls were white and all just spontainiously shouted 'white cracker' when they first saw them? c'mon people, common sense.

Cosmic_Beings
The adults told them to wait their turn, they didn't say anything racist at all. The black kids didn't like white people telling them what to do, so they did what they did.

Fishy
How do you know that? Did you talk to the parents?

PVS
exactly

the adult could have yelled racial slurs. its unlikely in that you would have to be completely retarded to go to brooklyn and make a habit out of dishing out racial slurs to black people...but its still a posability.

Cosmic_Beings
They obviously looked into it! Don't you think they would have said something about it if that had been the case? They didn't say anything racist, otherwise it would be an entire different situation. Duh.

The truth is that they didn't like being told what to do by a white person, so they got tons of other black people to retaliate like that. You don't think that that's the way it works, but it does. That's the way they are. If you don't believe me, I'll show you a video after I find it.

finti
or make it big grin

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
They obviously looked into it! Don't you think they would have said something about it if that had been the case? They didn't say anything racist, otherwise it would be an entire different situation. Duh.

wow, that 'duh' just turned all your assumption into fact. or so you would like to think erm

Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
The truth is that they didn't like being told what to do by a white person, so they got tons of other black people to retaliate like that. You don't think that that's the way it works, but it does. That's the way they are. If you don't believe me, I'll show you a video after I find it.

thats the way 'they' are? not the way i 'think it works'?

the way i 'think it works' and what hapened are two different things. although i make assumptions, i will not declare them as factual. why dont you follow the same example? there are patterns of violence which can be used for example, which i have done. however, you were not there, so i guess you dont know for sure, huh?

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
wow, that 'duh' just turned all your assumption into fact. or so you would like to think erm

Yeah, it is very obvious that the gangsters would have very readily said that they were the victims of racial comments and it would be in the article, instead of just 'After adults intervened and asked them to wait their turn'. Very obvious.

The way you're looking at it, if the adults said something racist which they didn't because it would have been revealed in court and we would know about it, you seem to think that if they did say something then it would be justified for them to get 30 people to beat up gour girls and be racist against them.

Adam_PoE
Racial epithets may have been uttered but that does not make this a race motivated crime. Had the mob called them "fat bitches" instead, would you insist that this was a crime motivated by size discrimination? The girls were beaten up because they would not let the other group of girls use the basketball court. They likely returned to the basketball court with a larger group of people to intimmidate the girls into leaving and things got out of hand. If it had been their plan to return with the sole purpose of beating the girls up, then the girls were going to get beaten up regardless of what color they are.

PVS
" you seem to think that if they did say something then it would be justified for them to get 30 people to beat up gour girls and be racist against them."

so you're way of 'winning' this arguement is to put words in my mouth? weak dude....weak.

all i say is that we dont know for sure. i have argued for your case in fact, but you cant cross the line and declare it as fact. why is that so difficult to wrap your noodle around?

Capt_Fantastic
So, let me get this straight? An acty motivated by anger can't become racial?

If a white man beat a black man because the black man stole his wallet and in the process, the white man called him a ****** or some other outrageous racial slur, then the beating wouldn't have been edged on by racial issues? I know if a black man stole my wallet, and I had the chance to do something about it, it would be getting my wallet back and getting the hell away from him. I wouldn't beat the black man and shout racial slurs at him...unless I didn't like black people before my wallet was stolen.

Now, I understand the point is that the kids wanted their basketball court(which is ironic in and of itself) and would have attacked anyone that stood in the way, but the point that I'm making really has little to do with this incident. My point is that the possibility of racism exists in all races.

PVS
well, its more like this. a black man mugs you and you run and tell your friends 'some n***** just stole my wallet!' and you and your buddies go after him shouting racial slurs...then YEAH its bias.

think about it, unless someone is attacked EXCLUSIVELY because of your race, then technically nothing is racially bias. but is that very realistic? its not a black and white issue (no play on words intended), but rather a grey. the element of racism escalated the violence. they obviously hated white people, and obviously voiced that (in whatever ignorant way they did).

what i mean is, race didnt CAUSE it, but was a tremendous factor, fueling the fire...well...turning it into a towering inferno

Capt_Fantastic
I think you're understanding what I'm saying. If an incident is made worse because of race, then it isn't a non-biased attack. If I beat the guy who stole my wallet because he was black, rather than just getting my wallet back, then it was in fact a racial attack...not just retrtibution.

PVS
so i guess the real question is, does the law see it that way?
or does the law see it in a way that there must be no other factors involved in an incident except for racism...if so...thats just stupid and the law needs to be revised

Capt_Fantastic
Well, the law has spoken on this issue. Kinda. The police said it wasn't racial. So, the MAN has answered that question.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
" you seem to think that if they did say something then it would be justified for them to get 30 people to beat up gour girls and be racist against them."

so you're way of 'winning' this arguement is to put words in my mouth? weak dude....weak.

all i say is that we dont know for sure. i have argued for your case in fact, but you cant cross the line and declare it as fact. why is that so difficult to wrap your noodle around?

Anyway, like I said before, if the adults said something racist, it would have been reported, and it wasn't, therefore it didn't happen. Duh.

PVS
lord knows people dont lie

but wait, i am 100% in the wrong...thus the 'duh'
what was once an intelligent debate has just turned into
an adolescent 'duh' match.

DUUUUUUUUH!!!!!!!!!!

Capt_Fantastic
I'm sorry, I think I was the first one to become childish. Good thing you were there to set me straight PVS. Duh.

PVS
DUUUUUUH!!!!!!


there...i win

Capt_Fantastic
Is that as big as it gets?

PVS
yes, thats as big as it gets.
thus, i have won this debate.
mods, you may close this thread now.
case closed

Capt_Fantastic
Oh, you thought I was talking about the text...




wink


Yeah, we might as well stick a fork in this thread.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
DUUUUUUH!!!!!!


there...i win

I never said that saying duh made me win anything. Now you resort to putting words in my mouth... lame dude, lame.

Like you said before, if a white person did anything it would be all over the news, and if they said something it would have been mentioned. Wrap your noodle around that.

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
blah blah blah

sorry, i stopped reading your posts after about the second 'duh' erm

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Yeah, we might as well stick a fork in this thread.
truer words were never spoken in this thread

Cosmic_Beings
Nah, still more to talk about, just because you don't understand things very well.

long pig
eh, the white girls were racist for not allowing the black kids to go ahead of them.

stick out tongue

Cosmic_Beings
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/ pizza_parlor_brawl_fight_while_ordering_pizza_Feb_
27_2005.html

Here's another example of people doing things like this for no reason at all. There was this white guy, and a black girl cut in front of him, and the white guy told his girlfriend on the cell phone that it might take a little longer, and the black girl heard it and starts screaming and then the manager asks her to leave, and she spits in the managers face, and then her boyfriend comes in and beats the crap out of the white guy for no reason and gives him a concussion and a chipped tooth and a broken eye socket. The white guy didn't say anything racist.

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
derp derp derpiderp

ok, whatever you said

Cosmic_Beings
Stop being immature.

rubber dickie
are they still pissed about the slavery? i mean, c'mon... that was a long time ago. i'm not justifying slavery, it's just that every single race have been f*cked over one way or another. why is the african american so mad? they're not the only ones being discriminated.

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Stop being immature.

ill stop being immature when you stop being a racist

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
ill stop being immature when you stop being a racist

lol... what an idiot. You're the only person who ever said hateful things in this thread.

PVS
well, lets see

first off i said nothing hateful, thanks for lying, or would you care to quote my hateful remarks?

and just so you know, i didnt say you were being hateful. i said you are being racist. i say so because you have turned the agenda of this thread from making others aware of a gang-related incident into pointing out black people being violent toward white people, as if they are the victimisers and white poeple are the victims.

you did this in posting a completely nonrelated article (which btw was already posted) in some attempt to prove that violent racists are somehow exclusively black.

if not, why did you post it? what does it have to do with anything discussed here other than the fact that the attackers in that video were black?

thats racism buddy. it doesnt have to be angry and hateful. all it has to be is a onesided way of thinking, where one race is the good guys and the other is the bad guys.

AdventChild
Originally posted by finti
black or white doesnt matter these are events no teens should eperience regardless skin color. Non Biased attack well I dont know, to me it seems like teens being teens, sometimes teens are totally igorant towards what they really do.

i couldn't agree more... kids no days are completly disrespectfull and immature....and all we need is ignorance to add on..... white or black white on black black on white isn't the issue i don't think.... it's just a bunch of stupid kids who probably were told a bunch of dumb things about the past and were upset about it....

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
well, lets see

first off i said nothing hateful, thanks for lying, or would you care to quote my hateful remarks?

and just so you know, i didnt say you were being hateful. i said you are being racist.

Because I showed articles and a video that revealed black people beating up white people? Oh ok. So watch out people, if you even let people know whenever black people beat up white people you'll be accused of racism.

Originally posted by PVS
well, lets see

first off i said nothing hateful, thanks for lying, or would you care to quote my hateful remarks?

Sure...

Originally posted by PVS

f*** gangs. if you're in one you are a scumbag.

Originally posted by PVS
according to those 'teens' (gangbanger scumbags)

And look at what else you said...

Originally posted by PVS
i have thought long on this very topic of gang violence and reluctance of police/media/general population to call it what it is out of fear of being called racists...as if gangs are the keystone of minority culture and should be respected like some damn religion...which in itself is completely racist when you think about it.

Wow, you said that white people are afraid of saying anything about black people in fear of being called racist, and then I talk and you call me racist. Lol what an idiot.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
lol... what an idiot. You're the only person who ever said hateful things in this thread.

That's not true. I said hateful things too. And even my room mate thinks I'm an ******* for saying that they would have just raped them. 10,000 screaming queers can't be wrong.

Swanky-Tuna
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I think you're understanding what I'm saying. If an incident is made worse because of race, then it isn't a non-biased attack. If I beat the guy who stole my wallet because he was black, rather than just getting my wallet back, then it was in fact a racial attack...not just retrtibution. But if you beat the black guy up just because you like to fight and take things too far, it's not racial.

It could quite possibly be that those kids would of beaten those girls up no matter what ethnicity they were and were just shouting that jazz because they got caught up in the moment.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
It could quite possibly be that those kids would of beaten those girls up no matter what ethnicity they were and were just shouting that jazz because they got caught up in the moment.

No, if the girls were black, they wouldn't have tried to punk them off the court in the first place.

Swanky-Tuna
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
No, if the girls were black, they wouldn't have tried to punk them off the court in the first place. How do you know that?

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
How do you know that?

Because I have special powers. no expression

Swanky-Tuna
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Because I have special powers. no expression
...Alright, I'll take your word for it.

moviejunkie23
Its because people are so afraid to hurt a black persons feelings and to point anything out to them that is blatantly racist. You can only be racist if your white it seems.
People should have the same standards. If you have a white doing a certain crime and call it a hate crime it should also be applied to a black person.
If you want to be equal then be equal. You want even weights not weights that are tipped to someones side according to the color of their skin.
This is sick and its funny to see how this has gotten zero press. If it was 4 black girls and a mob of racist white guys this would be all over the news.
I want to move to another country, its getting to be a count against you to be white in this country called America.

BackFire
Some very valid points, moviejunkie.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
But if you beat the black guy up just because you like to fight and take things too far, it's not racial.

It could quite possibly be that those kids would of beaten those girls up no matter what ethnicity they were and were just shouting that jazz because they got caught up in the moment.


That's not my point. If I beat up the black guy just because I like to fight, then there's no point to my statement. I kicked the shit out of him on a different level because he was black, and I don't like black people. It wasn't just beacause he stole my wallet or "I like to fight".

Jazz is an interesting term for racial slurs. Not one I ever considered. Jazz being "black" music and all.
The truth of the matter is that these guys did get "caught up in the moment", but that didn't stop them from being racist. Sure, I can make all the jokes about rape that I want, but these guys would have acted differently if it had been four black girls...or at least SPOKEN differently...given that they were not racist, right? At the very least they carried a grudge against the white man. There is an overwheling sentiment among black people that the white man is keeping them down. But what I don't understand is why they (they, being the black culture) thinks that the white family across the street is getting more than they are? Or has a better chance of succeeding than they do? It's bullshit. The white trash family has just as many chances to get ahead as the black trash family. The only problem is that neither makes an effort.

And the bottom line here is the gang mentality that they got caught up in; but! also the fact that it did go to a racial place. Which, of course, was my original point: Black people are just as guilty of racism as white people. The past is the past, no need to get caught up in it. Move on, and learn from your mistakes. Everybodys mistakes, not just one races'. I hardly doubt that these white chicks had anything to do with the enslavement of the black guys ancestors. But the black guys took it there, didn't they? We're all living the same shit lives. There are white people on social security too. There are white mothers paying for government cheese with food stamps, just like there are black mothers. These black guys may not have hated these specific white girls, but their resentment of the white race can't be denied. They said as much themselves. If they wanna blame the white man for their problems, then they're blaming all white men, not just the ones who make macaronni and cheese out of velvetta(just like they do). Besides, odds are that any one of those black guys can get more money to go to school than any one of those white girls! If you wanna talk about equality, then we're speaking two different languages.

Swanky-Tuna
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Jazz is an interesting term for racial slurs. Not one I ever considered. Jazz being "black" music and all.Eh... I was using "jazz" as in slang for nonsense. Because I know too many meanings for ye olde timey words.But we don't know they beat up those girls because they were white. That's all I'm saying. They could of beaten anybody up who wouldn't let them use that court. Because they shouted "white cracker" and "black power", it looks racist but that doesn't mean they attacked for racist reasons.Nothin' wrong with rape jokes. I made one relating to electricity the other day.It's true that the reaction would of been different but most likely because everybody could go nuts on their Jump-to-Conclusions Mat. I imagine if four black girls got beaten up by a swarm of black kids, nobody would of cared....What? You don't know anybody involved in that attack do you? And you're stereotyping them.'Tis just.
And so there's no confusion this time:
Just - Based on fact or sound reason, teehee.

PVS
"i have thought long on this very topic of gang violence and reluctance of police/media/general population to call it what it is out of fear of being called racists...as if gangs are the keystone of minority culture and should be respected like some damn religion...which in itself is completely racist when you think about it."

"f*** gangs. if you're in one you are a scumbag."

"according to those 'teens' (gangbanger scumbags)..."

these are the lines you quoted. all pertaining to gangs and not to black people. so i have to ask---hey cosmic beings....how exactly does pointing out my hatred toward gang members expose me as a racist? so what you are saying is that a violent gang member is the epitome of an african american? you are aware that there are plenty of gangs from other ethnicities in america, right? even the perfect little white boys in 'white america' suburbia whom you fail to acknowledge. sorry to burst your little dream bubble.

and as far as media/police/GENERAL PUBLIC...etc being afraid of being labeled as racists, how does it make me a racist for pointing that out? and how is it that you deem these organisations to be exclusively white?
and especially the GENERAL F***ING PUBLIC?

now WHO is the racist?

keep digging buddy, at this rate your arguement is killing itself and all i have to do is sit back and laugh...

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
No, if the girls were black, they wouldn't have tried to punk them off the court in the first place.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
How do you know that?

because he's an ignorant racist.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
these are the lines you quoted. all pertaining to gangs and not to black people. so i have to ask---hey cosmic beings....how exactly does pointing out my hatred toward gang members expose me as a racist?

Man, you're such a freaking dimrod. I said you were the only person who said hateful things, and you're the one who accused me of being racist, not the other way around. You're stupid. Practice with some flash cards, you can't seem to remember anything at all.


Originally posted by PVS so what you are saying is that a violent gang member is the epitome of an african american? you are aware that there are plenty of gangs from other ethnicities in america, right? even the perfect little white boys in 'white america' suburbia whom you fail to acknowledge. sorry to burst your little dream bubble.

Everyone knows that there are white gangs, I never said there weren't. Stop resorting to putting words in my mouth... weak dude, weak. But if the gang was white, then it wouldn't have happened, because they wouldn't be racist to the white girls. That was the whole problem in the first place, the black gang members were racist to the white girls. That's the point of this topic, stupid, black people being racist to white people. In your stupid head, you somehow thought that it was about gangsters being racist against white people... but like you just said, gangsters come in all races. Jesus, go back to elemetary school.

Originally posted by PVS and as far as media/police/GENERAL PUBLIC...etc being afraid of being labeled as racists, how does it make me a racist for pointing that out?

Again, you were the only one who called anyone a racist, not me. You'll probably try something stupid and act like you didn't adn that I did, but anyone with half a brain reading this can take a look back and see, but you'd probably resort to lying again because you just got owned. (I can already see it... "Lie? When did I lie?" TIP: ask your mom for flash cards, you need to improve your memory.)

Originally posted by PVS keep digging buddy, at this rate your arguement is killing itself and all i have to do is sit back and laugh...

What a complete idiot.

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
That's the point of this topic, stupid, black people being racist to white people.


see? thats completely racist

this topic is about a particular incident.
you tagged onto it a one-sided racist agenda.
im very sorry that you cant see the obvious here no

and for the last time, calling me stupid and other various insults doesnt change what you said. all anyone has to do is scroll back. and read. and really, stop all the crying sunshine smile and remember, its never too late to turn it all around and respect all ethnicities. think about it anyway wink

Adam_PoE

moviejunkie23
"That's the point of this topic, stupid, black people being racist to white people. "

People are saying thats a racist statement? Why? the people were black, you can assume from them yelling martin luther king(who stood for peace) while acting in violence that they are limited in their ability of intelligence, and they were yelling white cracker while attacking white people. How would you define a stupid black racist then? Certainly you can admit that somehwere out there a stupid black racist exists correct??

If some white guy said i am hanging blacks for the christian church (KKK back in the day) I would have no problem seeing his actions as being racist and and stupid considering that jesus stood for love and peace. This is not to say that I myself am not a white christian. But I also detest violent racism and ignorance

Its your behavior that defines how people see you. If your black and scream Martin Luther King and white cracker as you attack white girls you will be percieved as a stupid black racist.

I just don't see how Cosmic Beings was being racist whatsoever.

PVS
he was being racist in expanding the topic from:

-an incident where a black people were racist to white people

to

-all instances where black people are racist toward white people


simple as that

Cosmic_Beings
Right. Earlier in this thread you said that white people are afraid of being accused of racism if they talk about black people being racist to white people. And I talked about black people being racist to white people, and what do you know, you yourself call me a racist.

Again, elementary school would be a wise choice.

AdventChild
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
No, if the girls were black, they wouldn't have tried to punk them off the court in the first place.

You know what....You sound so immature for that stupid idiotic comment that you made... You seem to be completly ignorant!!!! how do you PHYSICALLY KNOW that is was a racial issue... To the fool who assumes...and rite now you're the one assuming so i would suggest you stop while you're ahead rite now.....You sound completly racist and i'm sry but you just do....
if the girls were black they wouldn't have tried to punk them... that has to be the most immature dumbest thing i have read all month!!! If the teens wanted to do more i think definetly they would have done more like raped the girls if it was a racial issue.. I'm done.... You're done as well.....

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Right. Earlier in this thread you said that white people are afraid of being accused of racism if they talk about black people being racist to white people. And I talked about black people being racist to white people, and what do you know, you yourself call me a racist.

Again, elementary school would be a wise choice.

nice attempt at twisting logic.

i stated that people feel scared of pointing out minorities being racist toward white people, to avoid being labeled a racist. this applies to a particular incident, be it this or any other.

when you pile together all black violence against whites and ignore the violence towards black people and any other minority, well thats racist.
sorry to be the one to break it to you sad

Afro Cheese
I think racism was a part of the motivation, probably not the whole thing, but they should be charged with hate crimes regardless. And if they weren't acting out of racism, then who cares, they are still scumbags for beating the shit out of four girls over a basketball court.

AdventChild
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I think racism was a part of the motivation, probably not the whole thing, but they should be charged with hate crimes regardless. And if they weren't acting out of racism, then who cares, they are still scumbags for beating the shit out of four girls over a basketball court.

this i can definetly agree on... i mean one guy could hurt those gurls imagine what 10 guys can do... geez.... It gets me flared up to read this kinda crap.... mad

PVS
i will say again, to temporarily bring it back to topic
i believe from what i have read that those girls would have been jumped whether they were white or black

***HOWEVER***

it was racism that motivated 30 kids to return to the park shouting hateful racist remarks and losing all control. racism didnt start the incident, but rather territoriality, classic trait of gangs. however, racism brought the incident to a head in that rather than it just being a fight between teens, it was a racial riot. its too bad i wasnt a fly on the wall with a tape recorder to hear just what those kids said to all their friends to turn them into vicious animals at the drop of a hat. then i would have proof. but i guarentee you they motivated their friends through racism, thus the 'white cracker' etc..

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
nice attempt at twisting logic.

i stated that people feel scared of pointing out minorities being racist toward white people, to avoid being labeled a racist. this applies to a particular incident, be it this or any other.

when you pile together all black violence against whites and ignore the violence towards black people and any other minority, well thats racist.
sorry to be the one to break it to you sad

Oh ok, so I'm racist for not including white people being racist against black people in a thread about black people being racist against white people.

Ok, go to this website, it should satisfy you: http://www.kkk.com/

PVS
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Oh ok, so I'm racist for not including white people being racist against black people in a thread about black people being racist against white people.

Ok, go to this website, it should satisfy you: http://www.kkk.com/

nice try
yes, the ONLY instances of white on black violence is the KKK. nice move. roll eyes (sarcastic) blame all white on black violence on some organisation you are not a part of, so that you can put it all on some little group and not white people in general, like you attempt to do with blacks. god forbid you should acknowledge that 'good god-fearin white americans' have commited plenty of hate crimes against blacks AND have never been members of the KKK.

AdventChild
sry to go off topic but i think Ku Klux Klan is are hippocrital christians... a horrible disgrace to Gods name and to the Christian community... and just to think that there may be KKK memebers in your church.....

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by PVS
i will say again, to temporarily bring it back to topic
i believe from what i have read that those girls would have been jumped whether they were white or black

***HOWEVER***

it was racism that motivated 30 kids to return to the park shouting hateful racist remarks and losing all control. racism didnt start the incident, but rather territoriality, classic trait of gangs. however, racism brought the incident to a head in that rather than it just being a fight between teens, it was a racial riot. its too bad i wasnt a fly on the wall with a tape recorder to hear just what those kids said to all their friends to turn them into vicious animals at the drop of a hat. I think it was their defiance to leave the court that was the main motivation. But if they weren't white, I doubt the teens would've been so upset over this. Nowadays white people are considered to be pushovers and easily punk-able. So they figured it'd be easy to punk a couple white girls off a court and when it wasn't as easy as they thought they got pissed and that's when they decided to jump them. I can't prove that, but I bet I'm right.

PVS
Originally posted by AdventChild
sry to go off topic but i think Ku Klux Klan is are hippocrital christians... a horrible disgrace to Gods name and to the Christian community... and just to think that there may be KKK memebers in your church.....

well, since they hate catholics, i doubt they go to my church

AdventChild
Originally posted by PVS
well, since they hate catholics, i doubt they go to my church

LOL same here!!! big grin laughing Happy Dance but seriously why hate catholics if they are the ones that basically started the christian community... like didn't Peter start it?....

PVS
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I think it was their defiance to leave the court that was the main motivation. But if they weren't white, I doubt the teens would've been so upset over this. Nowadays white people are considered to be pushovers and easily punk-able. So they figured it'd be easy to punk a couple white girls off a court and when it wasn't as easy as they thought they got pissed and that's when they decided to jump them. I can't prove that, but I bet I'm right.

i think you are right in pointing out the mentallity of the handfull of black kids who started the confrontation. however, i believe the motivation of everyone who showed up after was purely racist. perhaps i misunderstood what you typed and am actually agreeing with you. i've been known to do that from time to time.

Afro Cheese
I think everyone's motivation was partially racist, but they all probably had some other form of motivation too. Like looking cool to their peers or just getting caught up in the moment and feeling tough.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by PVS
i will say again, to temporarily bring it back to topic
i believe from what i have read that those girls would have been jumped whether they were white or black

***HOWEVER***

it was racism that motivated 30 kids to return to the park shouting hateful racist remarks and losing all control. racism didnt start the incident, but rather territoriality, classic trait of gangs. however, racism brought the incident to a head in that rather than it just being a fight between teens, it was a racial riot. its too bad i wasnt a fly on the wall with a tape recorder to hear just what those kids said to all their friends to turn them into vicious animals at the drop of a hat. then i would have proof. but i guarentee you they motivated their friends through racism, thus the 'white cracker' etc..

Thank you, my point exactly.

moviejunkie23
Listen quit making excuse for black racists when you would never do the same for white ones. Racism is racism point blank lets not try to sugar coat it when its black kids and try to demonize it when its whites. Quick skewing the topic, the black kids that attacked those white girls made it apparent that they were racially motivated and that they are racist and violent, lets not start looking for excuses for them.
Violent Racism like this is sick no matter what skin tone you have.
Lets not say "but what about all the racism whites have done through the years," and all that. Does that make an excuse for racism on the other end? Of course it doesn't. Be a stronger person and quit making excuse for people based on others behavior. That is quite pathetic.

Capt_Fantastic
Who's defending black racism?

moviejunkie23
defending and making excuses for are two different things. People have been saying stuff like " well what if they just got excited by other people making those remarks," and "Oh what if the girls made insults to them ealier," and their are a trove of other remarks people have made during the start of this post that would try to lesson the accountability for those black kids.
Face the facts, nobody making these same comments would do the same for a white racist doing something as evil. Nobody gives a white racist the benifit of the doubt when he commits a crime so why do you for a black person?
Everyone is accountable for their own actions. If you want to tap dance around a black committing a hate crime and have conjecture about what also might have instigated the problem then why don't the very same people do the same for whites. Or if your so fire and brim stone about racism by whites against other minorities than where is your fire and brim stone and your black and white wrong is wrong mantality when a black is a racist.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by moviejunkie23
defending and making excuses for are two different things. People have been saying stuff like " well what if they just got excited by other people making those remarks," and "Oh what if the girls made insults to them ealier," and their are a trove of other remarks people have made during the start of this post that would try to lesson the accountability for those black kids.
Face the facts, nobody making these same comments would do the same for a white racist doing something as evil. Nobody gives a white racist the benifit of the doubt when he commits a crime so why do you for a black person?
Everyone is accountable for their own actions. If you want to tap dance around a black committing a hate crime and have conjecture about what also might have instigated the problem then why don't the very same people do the same for whites. Or if your so fire and brim stone about racism by whites against other minorities than where is your fire and brim stone and your black and white wrong is wrong mantality when a black is a racist.

I hope you're not talking to me, because I was the one who was outraged that there are people in this world who don't think black people are capable of being racist. And I don't think PVS has ever made an excuse for black racism, or these black guys actions. I think he's probally capable of understanding that it's possible.


Do we have any black people here? I'd like to hear their opinion. Unless fo course one of us IS black, in which case, let me know.

moviejunkie23
naw man i wasn't pointing a finger at you.
I guess what i really want to say as i think all of us agree more than we don't agree, and that includes cosmic beings.
I can safley conclude from these posts no matter how we have individually worded it none of us likes racism and we all agree that no matter what your race is you can be ignorant and hatefull.

Cosmic_Beings
Originally posted by PVS
nice try
yes, the ONLY instances of white on black violence is the KKK. nice move. roll eyes (sarcastic) blame all white on black violence on some organisation you are not a part of, so that you can put it all on some little group and not white people in general, like you attempt to do with blacks. god forbid you should acknowledge that 'good god-fearin white americans' have commited plenty of hate crimes against blacks AND have never been members of the KKK.

You just completely made that up. Yeah, I said that kkk is the ONLY white on black violence. Shut up, you say the stupidest things and I prove you wrong and then you constantly resort to putting words in my mouth. Lame dude, lame.

PVS
oh dry your tears and smile smile

remember, its never too late to stop being a racist.

Cosmic_Beings
Stop calling me racist.

Cosmic_Beings
Oh my god, I just realised I've been talking to a 30 year old all this time. I've never seen someone act so immature at that age in my life. I'm through with you. Go to your Star Wars conventions.

PVS
laughing out loud

sadly im going to miss the big convention.
but what does star wars have to do with you being a racist?
in the words of luke 'let go of your hate'

AdventChild
Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Go to your Star Wars conventions.

laughing rolling on floor laughing laughing ......mean but funny... any way the KKK isn't just white on black racism... the kkk is against all racist just about... mexican, chinese, native americans, indians and everyone else.... its not on just one group.... which by the way if find it that the white people are "*******" meaning ignorant people for using such a word to replace another word such as Negro....

moviejunkie23
Originally posted by PVS
laughing out loud

sadly im going to miss the big convention.
but what does star wars have to do with you being a racist?
in the words of luke 'let go of your hate'

starwars
though i don't think anyone here has really been a racist i must say...

that was pretty funny

Adam_PoE
Suppose a black man is walking down the street when a truck pulls up along side him. Three white men get out of the truck and attack him, calling him a "******". This would be a hate crime because the racial identity of the victim is the sole motivation for the commission of the crime.

Now suppose a black man is walking down the street when a truck pulls up along side him. Three white men get out of the truck and attempt to rob him. The black man fights back and one of the men calls him a "******". This would not be a hate crime because the racial identity of the victim is incidental to the commission of the crime. The sole motivation for the commission of this crime is robbery. In this instance, the man is called a "******" because he happens to be black. Had he been overweight, he would have been called a "fat ass," had beeen a woman, he would have been called a "*****," and so on.

Which brings us to the topic at hand. There is no doubt that race was a component of this crime but it was not the motivation of this crime. Had the girls been black or puerto rican or chinese, they would have still been beaten up. Therefore, it is not a hate crime.

moviejunkie23
you know very well that woudn't be the standard if it was a bunch of whites attacking black girls. Suddenly its time to get technical when the races are turned around?

you know what nevermind.
I am not really gonna debate with anyone in here because it seems to me besides a few fine hairs everyone is is agreement with the bulk of the issue here, wich is racism comes in all forms and should be treated the same no matter what the race is.
If everyone agrees with that i don't really have a reason to hammer it in with posts.
I think some of us (including me) are straining a gnat when the fact remains I think all of us to some degree in here agree with eachother

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