x-men team vs avengers team

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



life is cruell
colossus, wolverine, and jean vs ironman, captain america, and thor

life is cruell
oh this takes place in a deserted city and this is in character fighting

Scoobless
the Avengers slaughter the X-Men...... the only possible delay would be Jean but Thor's mind is protected from mental assaults

life is cruell
i dont think it would be that easy because in ultimate war colossus was kicking the crap out of thor and wolverine wrecked ironman but thats the ultimate universe
i think that jean could knock out captain america first while colossus handles thor and iron man he would be overwhlemed but keep fighting long enough for wolvie to sneak up on stark since he cant be detected my his radar then trash his armor now jean and wolvie help out a hurt colossus against thor

Scoobless
Originally posted by life is cruell
i think that jean could knock out captain america first while colossus handles thor and iron man he would be overwhlemed but keep fighting long enough for wolvie to sneak up on stark since he cant be detected my his radar then trash his armor now jean and wolvie help out a hurt colossus against thor

in regular universe Avengers this would never happen, IM has force fields he uses in battles that Wolverine can't get through. Thor would kill Colossus if he wanted to..... but a KO will do.... IM could take Colossus solo as well

GalacticStorm
Well jean after the recent retcon as was originally intended jean is and always has been phoenix. It was her who went mad as dark phoenix and destroyed d'bari. The x team would win. wolverine could handle captain america and collossus could at least keep play a distraction to thor and nothing in iron mans arsenal could harm jean and when shes done with him she could help out the others.

wannabe
I guess, just like GS mentioned(more or less), that it all depends on which "incarnation" of Jean we are talking about. It all stands and falls with her for the X-Men in this fight.

Scoobless
Cap can handle Wolverine, Iron Man can handle Colossus...... if either of those X-Men went against Thor he'd murder them so Jean has to fight him first..... and she'd lose

GalacticStorm
Phoenix would lose against thor? Do u read comics?

Scoobless
Jean Grey would lose against Thor, yes

GalacticStorm
phoenix would murder him and his pantheon

life is cruell
how bout this is the jean with phoenix force to even it up i believe it was said she could tap into like 1/16th of the phoenix force maximum

DigiMark007
Screw the pheonix force. Of course, if Jean was Pheonix the x-men would win (even with 1/16 of the Pheonix Force's power, they would). But nothing was specified in the thread about pheonix...it just says Jean. That said, Avengers roll in style on this one.

-DM

GalacticStorm
did u not read what i said. Jean is and always has been the phoenix. It was originally intended for it to be that way then that got retconned. But now its been changed bk after the grant morrison run and its been carried on even in phoenix endsong. Jean always is connected with the force. She's its top avatar.

mr.smiley
jean as phoenix would deystroy thor.

theflyxx
Originally posted by life is cruell
long enough for wolvie to sneak up on stark since he cant be detected my his radar then trash his armor


Since when can Wolverine go undetected by Iron Man's radar, sonar, infrared, and electrical/magnetic sensors???

And how exactly will Wolverine's claws penetrate the armor's force field???

DigiMark007
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
did u not read what i said. Jean is and always has been the phoenix. It was originally intended for it to be that way then that got retconned. But now its been changed bk after the grant morrison run and its been carried on even in phoenix endsong. Jean always is connected with the force. She's its top avatar.

Then why has the PF been with others? Or is it permanently back to Jean after hopping around? And which series is this....I'm unfamiliar with one where she's the Pheonix permanently?

-DM

mr.smiley
the phoenix force can be with more than one at the same time

mr.smiley
in ultimate war wolverine took out iron man but that's about all i know

GalacticStorm
Then why has the PF been with others? Or is it permanently back to Jean after hopping around? And which series is this....I'm unfamiliar with one where she's the Pheonix permanently?

-DM

The phoenix force bestows its power on many avatars. Jean grey is the phoenix of the white crown meaning shes the top avatar and she can draw on far more power than the others. All of the phoenixes work as doctors of the universe healing what needs to be healed (m'kraan crystal) and destroying what doesnt work(d'bari and the destructive mutant sublime) The phoenix has and always will be a part of jean. Thats how the writers originally intended it but that got retconned but now grant morrisons recently changed it bk in new xmen over the last yr and a half. This has carried on into phoenix endsong

life is cruell
i have a comic issue that says wolverine was enhanced so that he couldnt be detected by radar but ill change the fights to wolvie vs cap colossus vs ironman and jean vs thor

BENITO
AVENGERS Walkover jean would be a problem for 5 minutes but cap would be the only one who gets hurt.

Metalmanx
X-men.

It would be a glorious battle, one that I would pay obscene amounts of money for an issue of, but the X-men would win.

Wow, now I REALLY want to see this fight. It would be incredible.

Wolverine vs. Captain America.
Colossus vs. Iron Man
Jean (Probably Phoenix or else that would've been a poor comparison from the beginning) vs. Thor.
-This one definitely a battle of the gods right here.

It would be glorious, simply beautfiul. I would give my first born child to see this fight take place.

wannabe

pr1983
if its standard jean... avengers

if its new, uber powerful jean... x-men...

Metalmanx
Hahah, I didn't really mean it. I've already promised my first born to another, so I clearly can't make that transaction.

Though it would seriously be an incredible fight. Worthy of a volume, not just one issue.

Epic. Truly epic.

who?-kid
Thor is the deciding factor here. That's why the Avengers will win.

VENOMfan
Ultimate Ironman is pretty weak tho, class 10 streangth compared to his mainstream counterpart that should be class 70 or 80 at least

a what the hell append with Thor vs Colossus? Ultimate Thor put Ult. Hulk on his ass who is stronger so than his mainstream counter part but get's roughed up by Ult. Colossus?

Ult titles are interesting read's but shouldnt be referenced unless its a Ult. Specific thread. the characters are waaaay different the mainstream

GalacticStorm
"Thor is the deciding factor here. That's why the Avengers will win."

No. Phoenix is the deciding factor here. She would destroy King Thor.

demigawd
It's probably unfair to go with the most powerful version of Jean and not the most powerful version of Thor.

It's like this:
weakest Jean vs. weakest Thor = weakest Thor
average Jean (Jean as written in 80% of her run) vs. average Thor (80% of his run) = average Thor
high Jean (Jean as written in GM's run, and in certain parts of Kelly's run) vs. high Thor (old school Thor that drove back Galactus, Ego, etc.) = King Thor
higher Jean (Phoenix Force) vs. higher Thor (Jurgen's King Thor) = King Thor
max Jean (Dark Phoenix) vs. max Thor (Oeming's Rune King Thor) = Dark Phoenix

But, most recent Jean (Morrison's Jean) vs. most recent Thor (Oeming's Rune King Thor) easily goes to Thor.

So....take your pick, but you should probably be fair about it.

GalacticStorm
We are goin with the most powerful versions thats why i said king thor in my post. Morrisons jean the phoenix of the white crown would obliterate thor. Dark phoenix was actually jean. Its the same person. Thats how it was originally intended and thats what it has now reverted to. Id luv to see any incarnation of thor survive a head on collision with the sun

demigawd
Morrison's Phoenix of the White Crown? Which Pheonix storyline did the White Crown business appear in? Jean was powerful in Morrison's run, but she still got eaten up by people like Cassandra, and Xorneto.

Morrison's Jean reminded me a lot of Claremont's early Jean-Phoenix - great offensive power, but somewhat limited stamina. that was how Magneto was able to take advantage of her and win. King Thor can likewise take down Morrison's Jean.

Also (and this is going to lead to an extended discussion, since this topic always does) - how do you reconcile the fact that Dark Phoenix, who you say was Jean the whole time, died on the moon with the fact that Jean's body was in stasis on the bottom of the ocean the whole time? How do you reconcile the fact that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same with the fact that in Endsong, the Phoenix Force exists independently of Jean and resurrected her body and occupied it. How do you reconcile the fact that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same with the fact that the Phoenix Force is now said to be able to occupy any Omega level mutant? How can they be one and the same?

GalacticStorm
"that was how Magneto was able to take advantage of her and win"

Actually that battle happened in mags base very shortly after jean had saved the multiverse from the M'Kraan crystal and she exhausted herself. Jean then subconsciously capped her powers and rejoined the xmen. Thats how mags beat her because she was owning him and then the fact that she hadnt recovered from her previous expenditure plus the bottlenecks she'd placed on her power allowed him to gain the upper hand after she hesitated. If u read uncanny xmen you'll know this to be the case.

how do you reconcile the fact that Dark Phoenix, who you say was Jean the whole time, died on the moon with the fact that Jean's body was in stasis on the bottom of the ocean the whole time?

Basically jean is and always has been the phoenix demi.
The Jean in Here Comes Tomorrow was the 616 Jean Grey that died in Planet X. She died in Planet X so that she would be reborn in that future so that she could perform her destined "disinfection" that was foretold throughout New X-Men.

Yes Wolverine and all the other characters were possible future versions of their 616 selves but that is only because Jean cut away that future.

You see because Jean ascended to the White Hot Room which is beyond conventional time and space- the Here Comes Tomorrow story still happened to HER. She still lived and experienced it!

From her god-like state as the White Phoenix of the Crown-- she was able to manipulate the 616 time and space to reverse time back to right after her memorial so that she could change Cyclops' response to Emma. So Jean's experience and current form as the White Phoenix is a part of current continuity.

Though that doesn't mean that Jean might not resurrect herself in the corporal 616 reality through her original body or even a new body for herself through a Phoenix Egg in the future.

Jean as the White Phoenix can return to life according to the first story that she appeared as the White Phoenix in Classic X-Men #43 backstory? Have you read that story? That story also explains that the real Jean had been the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix btw. Claremont tried to use his backups to de-retcon the '86 retcon.

Morrison's White Hot Room seems to be a synthesis of Claremont's afterlife in Classic 43 and Claremont's view of the inside of the M'Krann crystal as the nexus of realities.

Anyways it is a shame to deny this story to Jean. Especially since many of its elements such as the aspects of the Phoenix Egg and incubation, her genetic mutation that makes her a Phoenix, her mental link to the Phoenix Consciousness, and her status as the White Phoenix-- pretty much puts the nails in the coffin of the '86 retcon.

It is a travesty that Claremonts backstories de-retconed the retcon only to be ignored by fans and then later retconed by other writers and editors... And now Morrison has done the same thing and some fans are still trying to ignore it. Hopefully the editors and writers will not retcon over what Morrison has established about Jean. Judging by the X-Men: The End preview they will not. At least not for now.

How many times must the premise of the original continuity be validated before it gets recognized?


Yes I think it is quite clear that Morrison put Jean/Phoenix II and Jean/Phoenix IV back as the same character.


-Jean was referenced as the original Phoenix several times in New X-Men. (She lost control of her thoughts and emotions, she was on the moon with Scott etc etc)

-The Dark Phoenix costume and the Black Queen costume are her old costumes.

-New Jean was the one that fought Emma during the original Phoenix Sagas.

-It has been revealed that Jean has a genetic mutation that makes her a Phoenix. The power is in her blood, genes, and organs. It is her ultimate mutation.

-Jean has a mental link to the Phoenix Consciousness.

-Jean is an Omega mutant with Phoenix Potential.

-Jean as Phoenix dies to be reborn.

-When Jean tells Wolverine all she knows about the Phoenix she starts off talking about herself as a 13 year old and about her telekinesis manifesting and how it has grown since.

-Her mutation for being a Phoenix seems tied to her telekinetic mutation. Her telekinetic sensitivity is known as the Manifestation of the Phoenix. It is her telekinetic godhood, her ultimate mutation.

-Jean also mentions the cosmic side of the coin. It burns through things that don't work, it eats stars and planets, it talks to her, and if she gets too close it replaces her.

-But these replacements are not literal. She is replaced in that she is consumed by the Phoenix Consciousness. Jean was 'replaced' by the Phoenix twice in New but was also the same character- before, during, and after being consumed. Just like Classic 8 backstory shows- the whole 'Phoenix replaced Jean' story was not literal. This is what happens naturally when she gets too close to the power.

-Jean was reborn after being gutted and then incenerated by the sun.

-She later died and was reborn into a new body through a Phoenix Egg found on the moon. They knew it was real and that the real Jean was inside because of where it was found.

-Jean hatches in the form of the Gold Woman. Way back On the shuttle as told in FF 286 and Classic 8 the Phoenix appeared to Jean in this form and claims that its consciousness, form, ability to speak, and ability to exist in this plane, derive from Jean. In Classic #8 It creates a body for her- a shell for Jean to be transferred too. Once bonded, Jean herself puts her old body in a cocoon with a spark of herself left just in case.

-Just like before Jean appears in New X-Men in the Gold Body Form as she re-forms a new body for herself. One of the classic backstories also shows the Gold Woman and phoenix raptor as a part of Jean's mind as a child. (Classic X-Men #42)

-The Phoenix Egg is a natural part of her life cycle as she dies to be reborn. It seems as if she is not allowed to instantly resurrect then she will be reborn through a Phoenix Egg. Just like before with the 'cocoon'- the incubation period is important and if she is pre-maturely hatched she will not have all her memories.

-Later when Jean re-enters the white hot room/afterlife- Jean appears as the White Phoenix. The same form that Jean/Phoenix II appeared in when she went into the afterlife after killing herself on the moon as seen in Classic 43. In that story Death explains that she is the real Jean and sends her back to the cocoon.

-Jean is a White Phoenix of the Crown apparently among the most powerful/special of the Phoenixes. Her status as White Phoenix of the Crown as well as her gold and white colors and her being in the Crown seemingly puts her at the top of the Phoenix Heirarchy. Classic 43 also says that Jean has a unique relationship with the power and itsn't completely separate from it.

-When you go to the White Hot Room you are always there waiting for yourself to arrive. Instead of meeting herself Jean met other Phoenixes. Re-affirming that she is and always has been A Phoenix. Instead of going into the towers when she "dies" like most others- she exists outside of them as the White Phoenix. This is who she truly is in a metaphysical sense. Classic 43 also hints at this. When she is in life she is in training. She just tends to loose her concentration in there.

-Phoenix work is to be the doctor's of the Universe. They heal what needs to be healed and burn away what doesn't work. Healing the M'Krann, destroying D'Bari, and destroying Sublime and resetting time were all a part of Jean's "Phoenix Work".

-They also established that Jean has died before in the past.


Besides showing that the replacments are not literal and assimilating the retcon elements into the original premise Morrison also establishes that the Phoenix burns through lies and self deception. The Phoenix could not have decieved itself or anyone else into thinking it was Jean. And why take Jean's place literally when she can resurrect herself instantly and when she is a Phoenix herself and most probably the most special Phoenix of all?

And now we know that she can be consumed by the Phoenix Consciousness and even reborn through eggs into new bodies and still be the same character.

In Morrison's version the Phoenix is its avatars and a higher consciousness. The avatars have genetic mutations for being Phoenixes and have enormous psychic potential. The Phoenix Consciousness seems to be a collective consciousness of the avatars from the White Hot Room. This "they" seems to have a mental connection to them from the White Hot Room. It also seems to be able to regulate what they are allowed to do and how they will resurrect.

Jean and Quentin talk of "they" yet the only they we see are them and their fellow Phoenixes. They speak in their own Phoenix Voice yet there is a main voice that doens't come from any specific being that talks like a computer or collective with // marks.

Anyways Quentins presence also makes it in continuity. He evolved that way during Riot. We knew that his thought evolved into faster than light mental energy and that he entered higher planes and rooms. He went to the White Hot Room.

This also mirrors Jeans original transformation into Phoenix. The radiation had allowed her to evolve and reach her full potential as a psi and she became a being of pure mental energy. Though she then resurrected herself as Phoenix, originally.

Anyways I hope you will not be purposely decieving fans with your bios or ignoring current continuity. I hope to see Morrison's continuity recognized. After all until other wise stated or reinterpreted- it is the most recent and therefore should be official continuity.

Scoobless
i don't care enough about it to read all that.....

sad

demigawd
Wow...that's a lot to read.

"Anyways I hope you will not be purposely decieving fans with your bios or ignoring current continuity. I hope to see Morrison's continuity recognized. After all until other wise stated or reinterpreted- it is the most recent and therefore should be official continuity."

I assume this wasn't directed at me (bios?), so where did all of this come from?

Either way, ain't no way I'm reading all of that, so I'll just assume you're right, lol.

GalacticStorm
" assume this wasn't directed at me (bios?), so where did all of this come from?"

No it wasnt directed at u specifically just to people ive had debates with about the phoenix in the past. Trust me if u actually read it, it all makes sense and it all fits together. Take 5 mins out of your time to read it. If u dont then i dont want to hear anything about jean not being phoenix or jean without the phoenix cant do this or that because jean is and always will be the phoenix

Metalmanx
Hey, demigawd. Just letting you know, that "Magneto" in Morisson's run was, in fact, NOT Magneto.

I won't lie, the whole storyline is very confusing. But that was actually a sort of clone, but not really. He really is the brother of the ACTUAL Xorn. This "Magneto" did not have control over magnetism. Instead, he had a very close power: Control over gravity. When you think about it, in many ways, control over magnetism and gravity are pretty similar. That's how "Magneto" was able to easily topple New York City. It also explains as to how he was able to supposedly "heal" Xavier. He just kept him up with his powers.

Magneto was actually still recovering from both a previous crippling attack from Wolverine and the large-scale Sentinel attack on Genosha. The whole time "Xorn/Magneto" was there at at the Institute, Magneto was still recovering from both of these incredible injuries.

Just thought I should mention that, because not many people know it.

demigawd
"Hey, demigawd. Just letting you know, that "Magneto" in Morisson's run was, in fact, NOT Magneto."

I know, that's why I called him Xorneto in my post above.

Metalmanx
And even though Galactic Storm already said it, Jean, who is and always will be Phoenix (the most powerful one at that), can ressurect herself. That basically makes her unstoppable.

Wolverine would beat Captain America.

After a battle, Colossus would eventually beat Iron Man.

And after an even more epic battle, one where Thor refuses to lose and taps into sheer will power, Phoenix eventually just decimates him. Thor would not stand a chance against Phoenix.

Metalmanx
Oh, alright then. Sorry about that ^^.

demigawd
Even accepting that Jean and Phoenix are the same, it doesn't at all mean that Jean has access to the totality of the Phoenix power. In all of Jean's appearances, she's had very few truly high level showings like that. Even during Morrison's run. When she was near death and heading towards the sun she was able to pull out a bunch of power. And she still died at the hands of Xorneto. Prior to that, she was powerful, but not so much so that I'd believe she'd be a match for King Thor. Her stamina was pretty limited, and against a god, that makes all the difference.

Re: The Magneto vs. Jean fight - Magneto beating her had nothing to do with her exerting herself after the M'Kraan epic - her power is limitless. She did put subconscious caps on her power, to avoid going crazy and losing herself - those caps, which had enabled her to do all kinds of feats, still wasn't enough against Magneto - she dead-ended against him. does the Phoenix Force have more power than Magneto? Of course! But the caps she put in her own mind, which she figured would be enough for anything, weren't enough in that instance. In the next issue, she instantly recovered and was back at full power and saved herself and Beast - so it wasn't an exhaustion thing at all.

GalacticStorm
"Even accepting that Jean and Phoenix are the same, it doesn't at all mean that Jean has access to the totality of the Phoenix power. In all of Jean's appearances, she's had very few truly high level showings like that. Even during Morrison's run. When she was near death and heading towards the sun she was able to pull out a bunch of power. And she still died at the hands of Xorneto. Prior to that, she was powerful, but not so much so that I'd believe she'd be a match for King Thor. Her stamina was pretty limited, and against a god, that makes all the difference."

The phoenixes have a job to do in the universe. They are doctors of existence fixing or destroying what needs to be fixed or destroyed within the universe for balance. For day to the day practical uses jeans power is limited by herself to a level she finds easy to handle in an earth bound situation. The phoenix power is limitless if jean allowed herself to access it to its fullest all the time there would be a reoccurrence of the dark phoenix saga. As the phoenix of the white crown she is top avatar and commands virtually the totality of the phoenix power if she needs it to carry out her phoenix duties. As phoenix jean has bested firelord with ease held together and reenergised the strands of existence under her own personal power, disinfected solar systems(d'bari) for the sake of the universe and u think a skyfather would be a match for that? Odin and the worlds pantheons couldnt even make a lower ranking celestial flinch during the 3rd host. Watch carefully how u use the word god. Thor is a very poweful being however he and his race are self proclaimed gods. Phoenix and countless other cosmic beings would eat him alive

GalacticStorm
"The Magneto vs. Jean fight - Magneto beating her had nothing to do with her exerting herself after the M'Kraan epic - her power is limitless. She did put subconscious caps on her power, to avoid going crazy and losing herself - those caps, which had enabled her to do all kinds of feats, still wasn't enough against Magneto - she dead-ended against him. does the Phoenix Force have more power than Magneto? Of course! But the caps she put in her own mind, which she figured would be enough for anything, weren't enough in that instance. In the next issue, she instantly recovered and was back at full power and saved herself and Beast - so it wasn't an exhaustion thing at all."

If u reread those issues of uncanny xmen where the fight occurred and those leading up to the dark phoenix saga it clearly states she was exhausted after saving existence and that was the likely cause of her defeat by magneto. That and the fact that jean had capped her powers to levels she thought appropriate for day to day practical applications. That she did after the m'kraan incident because her power levels were depleted. Jean hesitated and was defeated. Magneto said himself that he felt her hesitating and thats when he pushed in a last ditch effort because he was getting owned. The next issue she recovered to an extent because the force allowed her to do so, so quickly. Its part of her powers and she was forced to push back her caps to save her friends. When she needs more power she can access it but she restrains it to levels she feels are appropriate and she can cope wiv while earth bound. The fact that she recovered so quickly shows this and also demonstrates just why as phoenix jean would own the avengers along with any incarnation of thor that decides to tag along

GalacticStorm
What does every1 else think about the phoenix stuff i wrote on the previous page and how its been reverted?

theflyxx
It was too damn long, so I didn't read it.

I don't have the time nor the inclination.

GalacticStorm
so u had to post to say that? Not really necessary roll eyes (sarcastic)

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The phoenixes have a job to do in the universe. They are doctors of existence fixing or destroying what needs to be fixed or destroyed within the universe for balance. For day to the day practical uses jeans power is limited by herself to a level she finds easy to handle in an earth bound situation. The phoenix power is limitless if jean allowed herself to access it to its fullest all the time there would be a reoccurrence of the dark phoenix saga. As the phoenix of the white crown she is top avatar and commands virtually the totality of the phoenix power if she needs it to carry out her phoenix duties. As phoenix jean has bested firelord with ease held together and reenergised the strands of existence under her own personal power, disinfected solar systems(d'bari) for the sake of the universe and u think a skyfather would be a match for that? Odin and the worlds pantheons couldnt even make a lower ranking celestial flinch during the 3rd host. Watch carefully how u use the word god. Thor is a very poweful being however he and his race are self proclaimed gods. Phoenix and countless other cosmic beings would eat him alive

All of which is well and good, but then she functions more like the Spectre than anything - if she only gets the power to do a certain job, then unless the Phoenix Force decides that Thor doesn't work and needs to be burned away, she's not going to get the power necessary to beat him. If they're fighting a random battle, it would have to be "her phoenix duty" to beat Thor, otherwise she won't be able to do it. If she was always as powerful as you're saying she is, she wouldn't have taken beatings at the hands of people like Cassandra Nova, and she wouldn't have failed against Xorneto/Sublime.

Dark Phoenix going all out takes Thor down. But Jean simply has not shown the ability to access that power at will, not at any time during anybody's run. If it comes at all, it only comes in the midst of some major near-death crisis.



The fact that he instantly recovered the issue later shows that stamina is not an issue. She summons the power as she needs it. The fact that she exhausted herself in a previous storyarc has nothing to do with her ability to access power in this story. In fact, if you read it, during the battle, she never once says that she's tired or that she's straining. She simply...runs out of power. She even says that she seemed to have reached the limit of her power and can draw upon no more to fight Phoenix. She wondered how that could be when the Phoenix doesn't have limits. It was because of the subconscious blocks on her power, not because of exaustion. But Magneto was able to do what Firelord couldn't...uncover what the subconscious limit was and exceed it. And this was a Magneto who was under attack by all the rest of the X-men right before and right after too...he was more exhausted than she was.



True. It was enough for taking out a herald of Galactus and saving the M'Kraan Crystal. Just not enough to beat Magneto. I think the same problem would exist against Thor. Jean doesn't have willful access to that kind of power - her own character fears would prevent that. Phoenix is more powerful than Thor, but Jean is too fearful and too human to do what's necessary to beat Thor.



he was shocked and unprepared - because he never knew her to have that kind of power. Neither of them lashed out at full force until they had each other's measure. First she lashed at him, which caught him by surprise, then he pushed back at her by drawing from the EM field of the entire planet, she said, "he's really fighting back now - time to take the kid gloves off". She tries to draw on more power...but hits her wall. Magneto senses that hesitation (he believed it to be hesitation, it was actually confusion on her part because she was pushed to a limit she didn't know she had), and nails her.



No, it proves the opposite. Thor isn't a universal threat - the Phoenix Force won't allow her to access the power necessary to beat Thor because Thor is a hero and her life wouldn't be in danger against him. He'd just knock them all out.

theflyxx
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
so u had to post to say that? Not really necessary roll eyes (sarcastic)

You asked what people thought about your post and I responded.

In all actuality, your post asking people what they think about your Phoenix post was completely unnecessary. If people gave a damn about it, they'd reply wouldn't they?

Nobody except Demigawd replied.

That goes to show you exactly what everyone else thought about your Phoenix post..

GalacticStorm
Actually i was PMed about my post and ive had discussions on it in other threads discussing the phoenix. The only reason i asked what people think is so because this thread was disappearing and i was asked about what thread i posted all that phoenix stuff on. Therefore i posted and it appeared bk on the first pg for those people to see. The thing is i come across really long posts i cant be bothered to read or threads that i cant be arsed to post in all the time. If u compare the viewing figures of threads to the actually number of people who post it seems most people who use forums are just the same in that respect. However they and myself hav a certain level of maturity and if we we feel that way about a topic we just dont post because we have better things to do wiv our time and social lifes to busy ourselves with. Good try tho. Come again. wink

GalacticStorm
" All of which is well and good, but then she functions more like the Spectre than anything - if she only gets the power to do a certain job, then unless the Phoenix Force decides that Thor doesn't work and needs to be burned away, she's not going to get the power necessary to beat him. If they're fighting a random battle, it would have to be "her phoenix duty" to beat Thor, otherwise she won't be able to do it. If she was always as powerful as you're saying she is, she wouldn't have taken beatings at the hands of people like Cassandra Nova, and she wouldn't have failed against Xorneto/Sublime.

Dark Phoenix going all out takes Thor down. But Jean simply has not shown the ability to access that power at will, not at any time during anybody's run. If it comes at all, it only comes in the midst of some major near-death crisis."

Demi you're right in a way. When shes attending to her phoenix duties she has access to as much power as she needs to complete the task. In a standard battle with thor just a friendly duel or a fight whose outcome she foresaw didnt really have any major affects on future events then yes i agree with you jean would probably lose. However if it was a fight to the death or one that it was important for the Xmen to win then of course she would push back the bariers on her power and obliterate him and his team. However its Jean who places the bottlenecks on her power its not something te phoenix force enforces on her so in that way its not that similar to the Spectre situation.



"The fact that he instantly recovered the issue later shows that stamina is not an issue. She summons the power as she needs it. The fact that she exhausted herself in a previous storyarc has nothing to do with her ability to access power in this story. In fact, if you read it, during the battle, she never once says that she's tired or that she's straining. She simply...runs out of power. She even says that she seemed to have reached the limit of her power and can draw upon no more to fight Phoenix. She wondered how that could be when the Phoenix doesn't have limits. It was because of the subconscious blocks on her power, not because of exaustion. But Magneto was able to do what Firelord couldn't...uncover what the subconscious limit was and exceed it. And this was a Magneto who was under attack by all the rest of the X-men right before and right after too...he was more exhausted than she was."

Well thats debatable. But yes ok the main reason she lost the battle was because of the limits she placed on her powers after the M'Kraan incident. However by limiting her ability to access the force Jean also limits the benefits of being one with it such as fast healing and recovery time. She was indeed exhausted and recovered far slower than she would have if she had allowed herself higher limits . The beast even comments himself on how remarkable it was that jean was near death it seemed and then suddenly she was recovered. She had to push back the limits she'd set because her brief battle with mags showed they werent sufficient.


"he was shocked and unprepared - because he never knew her to have that kind of power. Neither of them lashed out at full force until they had each other's measure. First she lashed at him, which caught him by surprise, then he pushed back at her by drawing from the EM field of the entire planet, she said, "he's really fighting back now - time to take the kid gloves off". She tries to draw on more power...but hits her wall. Magneto senses that hesitation (he believed it to be hesitation, it was actually confusion on her part because she was pushed to a limit she didn't know she had), and nails her"


Cool. Yeah i agree with that totally.


"No, it proves the opposite. Thor isn't a universal threat - the Phoenix Force won't allow her to access the power necessary to beat Thor because Thor is a hero and her life wouldn't be in danger against him. He'd just knock them all out."


I think confusion has arisen from my wording of things. When i said "the force allows her to" i meant the benefits of being one with the phoenix is that she can recover so quickly its a feature of the powers, not that the phoenix force said yes jean i will allow you to recover quickly now because its important to your work lol. Sorry its my fault. Like i said before her limits are placed by herself subconsciously. If she feels that she needs to win the battle, that xmen winning is important then she would and could quite easily destroy thor. But the fact that he's a hero and she's one too would prevent her from doing so as a hero unless it was a life or death stuation or innocents were at risk.

theflyxx
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
we have better things to do wiv our time and social lifes to busy ourselves with.

My thoughts exactly, which is why I didn't bother reading your long-winded post.

Moving on.

GalacticStorm
Yeah and im guessing thats also the reason u attempted to be clever and posted waffle unnecessarily when u werent interested in the topic or the post. Most people wiv sense which seems to be every other user of this forum but yourself just dont bother they hav better things to do. Either way i achieved what i set out to do. My post has been discussed in other threads and this thread has been brought to the attention of those who PMed me on the matter. Goodbye!!

demigawd
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Demi you're right in a way. When shes attending to her phoenix duties she has access to as much power as she needs to complete the task. In a standard battle with thor just a friendly duel or a fight whose outcome she foresaw didnt really have any major affects on future events then yes i agree with you jean would probably lose. However if it was a fight to the death or one that it was important for the Xmen to win then of course she would push back the bariers on her power and obliterate him and his team. However its Jean who places the bottlenecks on her power its not something te phoenix force enforces on her so in that way its not that similar to the Spectre situation.


Given that heroes don't usually fight each other to the death, least of all Thor and the X-men, I think it's safe to say that there wouldn't be any kind of crazy crisis generated on the scale of, say, Phoenix and Wolverine being hurled towards the sun and being seconds away from death before Jean becomes the Phoenix.



True, and just as Beast made that observation AFTER Jean's battle with Magneto, neither he nor anybody else made that observation BEFORE her battle with Magneto. The only reason why that would be the case is because she was recovered. And given that Magneto had just spent the preceeding several minutes fighting and beating the entire team, the only questionable stamina was Magneto's, and he still pulled off a win.



Ah, ok, I see what you're saying now. That makes sense. Of course, you have to conisder the battle rules, though from the battle rules posting:


1. It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.


2. Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.


So using those two rules, you couldn't simply say that Jean would instantly turn into Dark Phoenix and incinerate the Avengers team - it violates both rules. She's be fighting with the context of her personality and the limitations she places on herself - and that can only be derived by looking at her average performance during GM's run. And while her average during GM's run is pretty damn high, I'd still say it falls short of regular Thor, much less a skyfather level Thor.



I could live with that conclusion, but logically speaking, her reaching that point in a battle against Avengers would be unusual. To assign a series to it might be more accurate, in which case I give Thor the majority 7/10. Phoenix wins the three because she does what you said above. But that's rare, and the 3/10 win for her would accurately reflect that. Agree?

kgkg
ironman, captain america, and thor win this one.

GalacticStorm
Yeah i agree with most of what you said theyre fair points cant really argue. It all just depends on what type of battle theyre having. If its friendly, or if its just a case of one side misunderstanding the other then yeah thor would most likely win in it for the avengers. However if the avengers were too heavy handed, if they were standing in the way of the xmen accomplishing something with the xteam having no time to explain( as happens loads in comics) or if they were gonna try and capture/detain the team then those are all very gd reasons for jean to get heavy handed and take them out (subdue them) as phoenix.

wolverine8888
x-men all the way no doughts

life is cruell
how bout the situation is like in ultimate nightmare both the aveners and the x-men are on a mission the avengers spot the x-men and try and take them out and capture them because they are vigilanties

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.