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Onasi's a war hero. He would win.

Onasi is a ***... he would lose

Just because you don't like his personality (Which, surprisingly enough, most people don't. I don't know why. He never bothered me) doesn't take away from his considerable war time experience and whatnot.

I think that they are pretty evenly match though. And I also think that Han would be smart enough (and lucky) to realize if he was losing or no, and therefore make some sort of escape.

I'm going with Carth here because he fought a lot more, but before the events of Kotor his fighting was mostly limited to space battles... He still had superior training to han though so he would probably win

I really have to say it depends on the nature of the fight if its a bar brawl or shootout i have to go with Han on the other hand if its a space battle I have to give it up to Carth

Carth in every case. BTW search this up, I'm pretty sure it's been done before.

I think it has.

In a Space Battle, Han. He's a better pilot.

Shoot-out, I'm not sure. Han is REALLY lucky, more so than Obi-wan. He's taken some tough cookies before. I think Han has this.


And Janus. I agree. I don't know why everyone hates him. He was annoying at first, but then I got to like him better further in.

He certainly had a decent voice actor.

Han is a better pilot? Where did you get that.

Carth Onasi is a decorated war hero, who saw more combat then anybody else in the Endar Spire. Which was a war ship, carrying Bastila. So it would have to have some pretty good soldiers on it. AFter all with Bastila her importance... It would be foolish not to have good soldiers there.

Carth would know damn well how to fly... I don't think Han stands a chance against him. No matter how good he is. At least not in space. On the ground I seriously doubt it because Carth probably just had better training. But this one is tough, seeing as all we know from Carth on the ground is that he couldn't hit Malak at point blank range, the rest is all gameplay experience.

Carthalicious. Why is this even being argued? Everything Fishy says is true. What does Han have, luck? Yeah, that'll get him a guaranteed win.

Well, Carth was a professional soldier before he became a pilot and officer in the Mandalorian Wars. He was the ranking officer on the Endor Spire, and had balls to stick around until he had no other choice but to escape.

On a sidenote, how did Bandon escape the ship before it blew up I wonder...

Anyways, Han Solo was originally a thief and a very good pilot. He enrolled in the Imperial Naval academy but was drummed out for saving Chewbacca's life. He had a multitude of smuggling and battle experience beyond this point. I can't say he's fought a large scale war (The Battle of Nar Shadaa wasn't quite like the Mandalorian slaughterfest) but I wouldn't neccessarily say he's worse than Carth; he may even be better. Personally, I think Atton is a far better pilot than both, but he is also Force sensitive, and we know from Annie in TPM that Force Sensitivity can make a human an amazing pilot.

Ground battle? Carth. Carth is naturally ambidextrous and has an Arkanian heavy blaster modified with his own specs and even his family crest. Carth also wears a padded coat and suit which may be modified for light combat, but don't quote me on that one; it's just a possibility and really doesn't do much for this fight.

More or less it's a gut feeling. Neither of these guys is a lightweight, but on the ground Carth impresses me more. In space Carth has more war and tactical experience but Han has equal or perhaps even greater solo flying experience.

Oh yeah Han is a great pilot no doubt about that but a fight like that. I don't know. I think Carth just has the advantage here... Could be wrong of course its just a feeling. I mean he just sounds more impressive then Han

Sorry about diggin up an old thread, but I was reading a book that may actually make Han the better of the two. It seems Han actually has a form of precognition. This could be how he escaped so many bounty hunters over the years and was able to fly so well. This might just give him the edge over Carth IMO.

Actually, half of the instances which Han evaded bounty hunters included luck and other people. Neither constitute precognition.

I'd got to give it tentatively to Carth. He's got more experience and is an arguably more talented individual. If Han wins, it's by his luck and cunning.

Carth: " I've faught in so many wars, you would never be able to measure up!"

Han: "Yeah, I bet you have."

(*fires shot*)

Carth explodes



END

Han is too lucky, carth doesnt stand a chance.

Yeah thats a good argument... Seriously, he does not have the skill to beat Carth.

Yeah, but he has the luck. Were talkin abover Spiderman level of luck. Han can never die.

No wonder this subforum sucks. Look at the arguments:

"Han has luck, he wins!"

So does Obi-Wan beat Sidious now because of luck?

Oh c'mon, he's Han freaking SOLO. Geez. From gunslinger to pilot to thief, he's damn good at everything.

Carth's just another in a long line of grunts.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Oh c'mon, he's Han freaking SOLO. Geez. From gunslinger to pilot to thief, he's damn good at everything.

Carth's just another in a long line of grunts.

Seriously Ush, he's Obi freaking Kenobi. From jedi to diplomat to gunslinger he's damn good at everything.

Sidious is just another in a long line of Sith lords.

Huh, that feels as silly as it sounds.

Kenobi IS darn good at everything.

And seeing as Sidious achieved more than any Sith Lord did ever, that puts him rather apart from the rest.

I fail to see what is in the tiniest bit special about Carth that puts him anywhere near the same league as Solo, who is a legend. Your clumsy mockery makes very little impact on that.

Uh huh. And the point I'm making is you're relying on reputation and fame in the SW universe (and in the case of Sidious, his political achievements) as dictating a match. I don't see how that's supposed to be solid and conclusive.

People here already make assumptions based on one-sided bias. No point in flaming the fires.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Kenobi IS darn good at everything.

And seeing as Sidious achieved more than any Sith Lord did ever, that puts him rather apart from the rest.

I fail to see what is in the tiniest bit special about Carth that puts him anywhere near the same league as Solo, who is a legend. Your clumsy mockery makes very little impact on that.

That puts him apart politically, but it hardly serves as any true indicator as to his fighting prowess in the grand scale of EU continuity (which I'm assuming we're using since we do have Carth).

Clumsy mockery or not, simply saying Solo is lucky or a legend doesn't give him a superior weapon, aimbot, and godmode.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Han is too lucky, carth doesnt stand a chance.

What crap is this?

The fact that he became a legend does in fact imply those very skills. He's at the top of his game, the best in huis business. Carth is a grunt, he's just another heavy, there is absolutely no reason to think he is in Han's league at all. Add in the EU and Han's list of feats becomes huge.

And politics is power, and regardless, Palpatine still got to the top when no-one else did, which makes him the greatest Sith Lord there ever was- fact. He did it by guile and power, which is all the comparison you would ever need to make.

That's a horribly close minded approach to a debate thread.

Is everything else on KMC this absolute?

Carth is a war hero. That's not simply "just another grunt" who happened to have a gun in his hand.. And he was known as a skillful fighter and pilot. To say he's just one heavy wouldn't be accurate.



So Palpatine will use "Politics of doom" if he were to fight Obi-Wan? I fail to see where you're going with this. In a versus fight, which this is, it's not about who has the bigger reputation or who has more political skills, it's about who's greater in battle.

The way the "clumsy mockery" was phrased is poking fun at people who use the aforementioned logic.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The fact that he became a legend does in fact imply those very skills. He's at the top of his game, the best in huis business. Carth is a grunt, he's just another heavy, there is absolutely no reason to think he is in Han's league at all. Add in the EU and Han's list of feats becomes huge.

And politics is power, and regardless, Palpatine still got to the top when no-one else did, which makes him the greatest Sith Lord there ever was- fact. He did it by guile and power, which is all the comparison you would ever need to make.

Carth a mere grunt? Yea right. Carth was considered a hero of the Mandalorian Wars and was one of the few suvivors of Malachor V. Not to mention Carth was considered important enought to adivse the Jedi who escorted Bastila to Taris.

He didn't seem very powerful at that point to me. So he's a war veteran? That's an abstract term; it doesn't actually help with anything, unlike Han's recorded exploits. He advised because he is a ranking military guy, but that doesn't make him any more important or better than, say, Typho- and by the same logic, what makes Carth any better than Atton? He's a grunt. He's not actually famous for doing anything- unlike Han, who has a string of Galactically famous victories under his belt.

The clumsy mockery was just that- clumsy, and as the logic behind the counter-argument was void, doubly so.

And Palpatine's political skills were simply an extension of his intelligence and dark powers. It's the way of it all. He's powerful enough for Yoda to fear, which rather closes the deal.

Sorry, but Han is one of the greatest heroes of the SW saga. To compare him to a secondary character in a computer game, who has no specific reason to be any better, is simply weak.

Yeah, that's what I especially hate. How people always assume that just because the guy's a good video-game character, makes him kickass. Han we saw as great, it's been shown in a real life, one shot and you're down. He didn't get shot.

In the videogame, Carth got shot...alot, he can be slashed with lightsabers, zapped by lightning and have grenades literally blow up in his face...still unscratched in the end somehow.

You just can't argue videogame characters to live-action ones.

If you think about it, Han is a war veteran too, eh?

Plenty so.

I would like to see some of these Galatcily famous victories or a list of them, and what is the logic behind a war vetern not meaning anything. Carth had to have fought more than once on the battlefield against fanaticle Mandalorian warriors who had spent their entire life training and fightning.



And what does Palpatine have anything to do with this Carth vs Han? And Palpatine is far from the greatest Sith Lord around. Sith Lords like Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow who had the power to destroy stars would dwarf Palps in greatness.



This is a common statement from EU haters like you. You argue that because the character is from a Computer Game and is not as structured as a movie character then therefore he is nothing compaired to the movie character.

He is an EU hater because people overpower everything and won't shut up about it.

Oh really? And what reason do you have to argue that Carth is better than Atton or any other KOTOR character? Simply because you like him a lot? The hypocrisy in such staements is astounding. And what reason do you have to label me an EU hater, btw? That shows a bias that speaks very badly of you.

EU mass exaggerations that break canonicity about force powers aside, those Sith Lords failed to achieve. Palpatine did. Hence he was greater than they- simple mythology logic. Part of the myhological point of the films involves GL showing the Sith finally achieve their victory under the greatest of them all.

Han is a war veteran too. Carth was pretty crappy as a character at the point after the wars, and nor is there ever any specific reference to what he was good at. Half the Imperial Navy staff are 'war veterans' but they are crap. Point is, Carth has never been defined as anyone with any specific qualities. Han has, and Han is at the very top. Comparison is futile.

Han is an ace gunslinger- as continually demonstrated on screen- and as for his victories? Humm, umm, well, do Yavin and Endor mean anything to you? The EU stretches it even more, with great victories past and futrure in his character, including killing the Emperor again, crappy plot as it was.

Carth doesn't even place. The argument is preposterous.

One shot from Han (that he will get off first and hit Carth dead on) will kill Carth. It won't be much more complex then that. Han: Shoot. Carth: fall, die.

So because Carth didn't shoot Vader's TIE fighter or slip in with some rebels at Endor he what? Isn't good enough to be compared to Han Solo?

You're providing us with a very absolutist viewpoint here that basically spits all over the reason for having this subforum.

There is no form of reason that spits over this place, because there is no set logic by which this place works.

And it's because Carth has no famous events to his name by which his qualities can be measured against the super-heroic ones that come from Han that mean he cannot be compared.

lmfao

Sure. So I can't compare the battle prowess of say, a New York sharpshooter to James Bond because James Bond saved the world a few times?

That's basically what you're saying, Ush. We can't compare the two because Han Solo is famous and has uber victories.

Carth must be some lowly digital peon not worth a thing but Han Solo did great things and thus this battle is ridiculous, right?

So the guy who was eventually promoted into an admiral is a lowly grunt with no records attached to his name?

I fail to see how the logic works, honestly.

Well, that's just you twisting my logic. As I said, you actually have no basis to compare Carth to Han. Hence, attempting to is silly.

And for those who think that Han's luck doesn't count for much- tell that to Boba.

Originally posted by Illustrious
So the guy who was eventually promoted into an admiral is a lowly grunt with no records attached to his name?

I fail to see how the logic works, honestly.

What, Rank determines quality in Star Wars now?

That's entirely irrelevant. And even if it did, so what? Han was the equivalent rank so you still have nothing on him.

THe point remains that you still have no specific thing you can point to and sday that it makes Carth better. At least EU book characters have specific and measurable deeds to their name. He has none.

Han Solo has this if he can survive Boba Fett I'm sure he can take Carth.

Actually that comparison is a bit drastic, but it's valid. You're effectively saying Han has more victories and has accomplished more, therefore, regardless about whatever we know about their skills, Han will beat Carth.

I suppose someone like Ludo Kressh would lose to Han Solo because he didn't accomplish much.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Han Solo has this if he can survive Boba Fett I'm sure he can take Carth.

Boba is a Mandalorian. Carth fought in the Mandalorian Wars. I'm sure he'd meet up with a few people like Boba.

Or Yoda, who was quite unambitious.

Ush, if you're so concerned with people making threads you feel aren't reasonable, why don't you close them and make a disclaimer?

No, my postulation is that we actually know nothing about Carth's skills at all, whereas we have seen plenty of Han's, which are very good. Han has experiences a plenty- far more so, in fact- so you cannot say Carth is more experienced. You cannot say Carth is more skilled. So you cannot say that this fairly irrelevant character is in any way better than probably the most famous good guy in the entire SW saga at all.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Boba is a Mandalorian. Carth fought in the Mandalorian Wars. I'm sure he'd meet up with a few people like Boba.

Prove it! Boba was a legend. Carth may only have ever met grunts. I'll say again, at the start of KOTOR, Carth was a very average person, so that past experience counts for nowt.

Again, with Yoda we have obvious and demonstrated ability that we have none of with Carth. Why you guys cannot see this simple logic is beyond me.

And I don't mind people making the threads; I'll just point out how silly that viewpoint is within it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
What, Rank determines quality in Star Wars now?

That's entirely irrelevant. And even if it did, so what? Han was the equivalent rank so you still have nothing on him.

THe point remains that you still have no specific thing you can point to and sday that it makes Carth better. At least EU book characters have specific and measurable deeds to their name. He has none.

It's about as relevant as saying Palpatine had great political accomplishments, therefore he beats Obi-Wan. You are forgetting all the confounding variables that could throw off the equation.

I don't like the hypocrisy, when you say political achievements and "victories" makes your team win, it's valid. But when I show achievements, it's irrelevant. So I suppose they decided to play spin the bottle with Admiral candidates, right?

Carth was a hero against Mandalorians (Boba was a single Mandalorian), yet somehow, Han's feat against one mandalorian is more impressive?

Carth killed Saul, he fought in the battle of the Starforge, he was a hero in the Mandalorian Wars, yet all of those are irrelevant because there's few book sources?

So Han can beat Ragnos because there's not enough supporting him?

I didn't say achievement counted for nothing at any point- I said that in Star Wars, rank counts for nothing. Look at Ozzel. Read what I say properly.

And yes- Han's achievement is more impressive because it is defined against a Galactic legend.

lmao

Han >>>>> Ragnos.

It's simple logic, really.

It's ridiculous twisting. Clearly, having held together the entirity of the Sith for so long, this is a specific acheivement that clearly shows that Ragnos is a powerful Sith and so therefore beyond Han.

You guys really need to learn to read an argument properly rather than try and make silly adolescent extremes look like what I am saying.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I didn;t say achievement counted for nothing at any point- I said that in Star Wars, rank counts for nothing. Look at Ozzel. Read what I say properly.

And yes- Han's achievement is more impressive because it is defined against a Galactic legend.

Again, that's walking a fine line towards logical fallacy, Ush.

You can't list off one individual who was an incompetent high ranking official, while ignoring all the rest who were, and say Carth's ranking is irrelevant. While there may be outliers, the general trend is the higher up you go, the more competent you are. And there's no facts to say Carth was incompetent.

You personally said Palpatine is the greatest Sith lord because he was able to "accomplish more." In this case, take over the Republic.

But I ask of you, what does this awesome political maneuver do in battle? Nothing. That is the most "irrelevant" thing in the thread. At least citing his rank would indicate he has more "fame" than your typical "grunt" which you attempted to throw Carth in with.

Agreed. ANd really, define Galactic Legend for us? You don't think someone they call a hero of the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars is weaker than a smuggler who got tied up in the rebellion against the Empire?

What qualifies as a "Galactic Legend"?

No, that's not the general trend at all, in fact, when it comes to military rank in Star Wars. Dunno where you got that idea from.

And it;s not up to me to prove negatives, but for you to prove popsitives., There is nothing proving that Carth is competent as an Admiral, and that's the trick. For all we know, he got the job because he was Revean's friend. This ois the central popint- there is NO barometer of Carth's quality at all, whereas Han is very high on that scale.

And again, I'll remind you that Palpatine's rise to power is directly related to his power as a Sith, and this has an important mythological resonance that it is very important that you should recognise in these films. It;s not even vaguely irrelevant. By that logic, if any Sith before Palpatine had been as good as him, he would have succeeded.

This qualifies:

Look in a mirror and have Han stand behind you and look deep into it.

Oh, and yeah, don't look at yourself. Thats a Galactic Legend.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Agreed. ANd really, define Galactic Legend for us? You don't think someone they call a hero of the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars is weaker than a smuggler who got tied up in the rebellion against the Empire?

What qualifies as a "Galactic Legend"?

Someone who is a legend in the Galaxy. Han was directly responsible for victory in the greatest battles of his age and was a massive hero of the Rebel Alliance, the dominant power at that time.

Carth happened to have fought in the wars. No comparison- he is no legend.

Name exceptions to the trend and I'll name you more individuals that follow this trend.

That's what a "trend" is. It's not infallable, but it is association.

If you're attempting to convince people that Star Wars leaders recruit their high ranking officials from the bottom of the barrel, you're going to need to prove it.



By going against logic and reasoning, you are the one attempting to prove a positive. You use Han being considered famous in everything he does as justification, yet being a War Hero doesn't quite work?



You also have to recognize the temporal significance.

The Ancient Sith were known threats long before they could even hope of infiltrating the Republic.

Do you really think the Republic would simply let some person that LOOKS like a threat (Ragnos or Sadow) and allow them to manipulate the Republic into their palm? Hardly.

In the same way, would Hitler have taken over Germany if it was 1900 instead of 1930? No. The circumstancse lined up for him perfectly.

And again, even this "power as a Sith" does not indicate he would swing a glowstick better than another individual. That is where the "irrelevance" lies.

You're going to have to PROVE that Political prowess = Lightsaber/battle prowess.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Someone who is a legend in the Galaxy. Han was directly responsible for victory in the greatest battles of his age and was a massive hero of the Rebel Alliance, the dominant power at that time.

Carth happened to have fought in the wars. No comparison- he is no legend.

This is yourinterpretation of a legend in the Galaxy, not the standard one, Ush. Being directly responsible for ship battles does NOT equate victory in blaster or melee combat.

Second, Carth himself was instrumental in the victory of the Republic over the Sith forces in his time in not one but two wars.

Little oversight there, huh?

You just CAN'T compare Videogames to movies.

Originally posted by Tangible God
You just CAN'T compare Videogames to movies.

Or books or comics or anyting else, huh? Simply because we see movies they supercede all in versus threads?

With a mindset like that, why bother at all with these Eu characters? I know... let's have movie only versus threads, since all else is apparently under the realm of Some People Don't Want To Consider It(tm) and then we can go completely dead as a forum because it'll be a total of.... twenty threads.

I like how the shift went from Han winning to you can't compare them. Why is it when people are confronted with the possibility that the viewpoint can be different they claim a mistrial?

Originally posted by Tangible God
You just CAN'T compare Videogames to movies.

How so? Are feats in Videogames diminished compared to feats in movies? Would outdueling a video game character be less impressive than outdueling a character in a movie?

The problem with videogames isn't that it's incomparable, it's that it too often too amorphous and indefinite. However, if there are adequate FMVs or a canon ending/route taken, then of course the same feats are comparable.

Remember that movies are oftentimes that interpretation of the director/producer/screenwriter/choreographer. If a videogame is represented as in continuity, there is no reason why you can't compare the same RESULTS. No one is talking about comparing gameplay to movie action.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Someone who is a legend in the Galaxy. Han was directly responsible for victory in the greatest battles of his age and was a massive hero of the Rebel Alliance, the dominant power at that time.

Carth happened to have fought in the wars. No comparison- he is no legend.
Actually, he was a legend. Talk to some of the NPC's in KOTOR1, they all say how amazing Carth is. Hell, even Bastila, queen of the uber bitches says that they're in good hands because Carth is with them.

I'm just saying There's not enough on Carth to make it far.

Han's got three movies and a slew of EU after and before the movies to prove his worth.

Carth's got KOTOR. That's it, we get a description of him during the Mandalorian Wars. We don't get much detail on them. Since the game no longer counts as merit, KOTOR events are out.

Whoa whoa... since when does the game "not count for merit"...

When it actually came to them dukin it out, Carth's amazing ability to be slashed with a lightsaber and live by healing himself instantaneously with a magic medkit, doesn't count.

Yeah, gameplay doesn't. Established EU facts in game do.

But does he have enough of Established facts of Eu to compare with Han? 'Cause I'm pretty sure Han did alot more.

Janus etc.. there is no debate, han simply wins...

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Janus etc.. there is no debate, han simply wins...

First off, nothing in life or fiction is this certain. this is ignorance.

Second, TG- more evidence doesn't neccessarily equate to winning in a damn fight. We have more records of Patton or Rommel, but I'm sure Charlemagne would whup their ass in a fight.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
First off, nothing in life or fiction is this certain. this is ignorance.

Second, TG- more evidence doesn't neccessarily equate to winning in a damn fight. We have more records of Patton or Rommel, but I'm sure Charlemagne would whup their ass in a fight.

There is only one thing in this world that is absolute, han comes out alive.

I think you're kidding now, GV. I know you're notorious for being off your rocker, but now I think you're just toying with me.

Anyways, to say Han has this, he has more material, and that's a wrap is gonna be the final nail in the coffin of this near-dead place.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I think you're kidding now, GV. I know you're notorious for being off your rocker, but now I think you're just toying with me.

Anyways, to say Han has this, he has more material, and that's a wrap is gonna be the final nail in the coffin of this near-dead place.

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/get_rich_or_die_tryin_/50_cent/getrich_poster.jpg

Lol

I knew it!

lol

That poor baby.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
First off, nothing in life or fiction is this certain. this is ignorance.

Second, TG- more evidence doesn't neccessarily equate to winning in a damn fight. We have more records of Patton or Rommel, but I'm sure Charlemagne would whup their ass in a fight. Of course. But since these are not real people, we can only go by what we know, and what is told. By that, Han has more, plain and simple.

We know more about Leia then Ragnos, could she defeat him?

Yes..

If Ragnos was sleeping drunk and dying at the same time.

Carth just simply has the skills the experience and the reputation. Han has none of those things. Carth wins.

Originally posted by Fishy
Carth just simply has the skills the experience and the reputation. Han has none of those things. Carth wins.

Han doesn't have any experience, skills and reputation ?

- at the age of nineteen he together with two of his friends stole a great amount of the Ylesian High Priests private art collection
- he was trained to become a soldier and reached the rang of an lieutenant before he was dishonorably discharged from the Imperial Army for helping Chewbacca escape from Imperial slavery; during that time he earned the right to wear the Corellian bloodstripe.
- after doing that he spent 5 years of time smuggling stuff with Chewbacca and was known to be one of the best of his buisness; in this time he destroyed the Corporate Sector Authority's secret prision "Star's End" and a slave trade ring connected with the CSA
- this is followed by the events during the Galactic Civil War (ANH - ROTJ) where he not only participated in the war against the Empire but did kill several Bounty Hunters that were send after him by the Empire and Jabba the Hutt
- after that he was responsible for the fall of the Warlord Zsinj
- he participated in some mercenary missions and did a lot of work for the NR intelligence
- he was present at the Battle of Wayland (resulting in the death of Joruus C'Baoth)
- he managed to escape from the prison on Kessel as well as he managed to escape Admiral Daala

Skill:
- he's piloting skills where outstanding enough to surprise and impress Vader (during the Battle of Yavin and when Han flew into the asteroid field to escape the Imperial Navy in ESB) - in fact he is the best non-force user in terms of piloting
- he's a legendary war hero (fighting and commanding - skilled enough to send him on mercenary missions)
- a legendary smuggler (one of the best)
- a legendary thief (even before he really started his career)
- a master of deception (pretty much "respected" in the "underworld"
- he's probably the luckiest guy in the entire SW universe


Carth:
- Carth was a war hero of the Mandalorian Wars and is said to be a skilled pilot and superior tactician (we don't know if he was a frontline fighter, a commander or pilot there - at least he was in his 30s at this point - fighting Mandalorians and surviving this for 3 years is impressive)
- after the Mandalorian Wars he participated in the Jedi Civil War being one of the Republic's most skilled commanders
- we don't know how much he participated in Revan's fights (because that's players choice) but we know that he helped to free Bastilla on Taris and he assisted Revan on the Leviathan killing his former commander Karath
- after this he faced another 5 years with fights against the remaining Sith (if you consider KotoR lightside ending as canon because otherwise he's most likely killed by Revan on the Rakatan homeworld)

Well...from what we have seen so far Han does seem to have more experience in combat (Wars, battles, mercenary / intelligence missions) if you consider what he has fought: the Empire (4 years), the Ssi-ruuk, Ysanne Isard (Bacta War), Zsinj, Thrawn, the returned Emperor, Daala and the YV (before Chewie was killed). Hell...he nearly did nothing else than fight people and went on missions for the NR for 20 years of his life where Carth had 11 years of wartime to face from the beginning of the Mandalorian War until the end of KotoR II.
Add his "less military" skills (deception, being a thief and smuggler, his "badassness" and of course his impossible amount of luck) and I think he's able to take Carth although I'm not sure who will win a "straight" fight because they're both very skilled when it comes down to handling blasters.

Okay you win. I'm not sure on who wins anymore. Han suddenly does sound far more impressive.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/get_rich_or_die_tryin_/50_cent/getrich_poster.jpg

Lol
Silly fifty cent, men can't breast feed. Tsk Tsk.

Guys, I think you ar overanalyzing. Han is a gunslinger, and would get the first shot (if this was a shootout) one shot from Hans gun and Carth is dead.

- at the age of nineteen he together with two of his friends stole a great amount of the Ylesian High Priests private art collection

This proves what? I read the book. It wasn't Han being a supersoldier that did this.


- he was trained to become a soldier and reached the rang of an lieutenant before he was dishonorably discharged from the Imperial Army for helping Chewbacca escape from Imperial slavery; during that time he earned the right to wear the Corellian bloodstripe.

He was in the Imperial navy, and was not a soldier. Also, if Han helping Chewie escape was so dangerous, he would not have been alive when they dishonorably discharged him.


- after doing that he spent 5 years of time smuggling stuff with Chewbacca and was known to be one of the best of his buisness; in this time he destroyed the Corporate Sector Authority's secret prision "Star's End" and a slave trade ring connected with the CSA

Again, this needs to be put into context. This is not "Feat Wars"; this is evaluating and deciding who would win in a fight, not who smuggled the most spice. Sheesh. If smuggling was that hard, there wouldn't be drop outs, losers, and other rabble doing it all the time.


- this is followed by the events during the Galactic Civil War (ANH - ROTJ) where he not only participated in the war against the Empire but did kill several Bounty Hunters that were send after him by the Empire and Jabba the Hutt

Saying Han Solo had more than a very small part in the Galactic Civil War is overglorifying his contribution. Han shuttled rebels, shot Vader when the latter was distracted, was caught and tortured by the Empire, and then lead a strike team to Endor, where the entire battle was 90% PIS and 10% Ewok inspiration.

And again, this establishes nothing.


- after that he was responsible for the fall of the Warlord Zsinj
- he participated in some mercenary missions and did a lot of work for the NR intelligence
- he was present at the Battle of Wayland (resulting in the death of Joruus C'Baoth)
- he managed to escape from the prison on Kessel as well as he managed to escape Admiral Daala

I'll concede this points, simply because I don't know enough about them to say otherwise, though it would be nice if someone indicated where Han Solo depicted actions that put him above Carth in combat instead of Feat Wars, which is becoming all-too-popular around here.



Skill:
- he's piloting skills where outstanding enough to surprise and impress Vader (during the Battle of Yavin and when Han flew into the asteroid field to escape the Imperial Navy in ESB) - in fact he is the best non-force user in terms of piloting

This is a lot of character hype, you do realize. I mean, for Han Solo to be the best non-Force sensitive pilot in a galaxy with billions upon billions upon billions of peoples is a bit of a stretch. Han is good; I don't deny this. In a ship battle I think it'd probably go in his favor. However, I doubt that the Red Baron could beat your average mudcrunching Wehrmact sergeant in combat despite his amazing piloting skills.


- he's a legendary war hero (fighting and commanding - skilled enough to send him on mercenary missions)

Legendary = subjective. Carth is also legendary. This proves nothing. Hell, George Washinton can be considered legendary in the eyes of American historians and I could probably beat his ass.


- a legendary smuggler (one of the best)

Again, this reeks of hyperbole. In a few books that depict Han's earlier years, there are many experienced smugglers that outdo Han and have better contacts, tactics, etc. He learns from them and becomes -very- competent, but what this has to do with anything is beyond me. More Feat wars.


- a legendary thief (even before he really started his career)

Legendary thief? LMFAO... yeah, right. I bet Xizor stayed up late at night wondering if he could sway the legendary Han Solo to steal a purse or two for him. lmao... what a bunch of shit this is...


- a master of deception (pretty much "respected" in the "underworld"

Master of Deception = Respect in the underworld? Not exactly. If Han Solo was a "master of deception" he'd have never been caught and almost shot by Boba Fett, Darth Vader and Insert Any Other Baddie Name Here since a master of deception gets caught by no one. Nice try though. Is C-3PO a master of Ewok Lore too? lmao


- he's probably the luckiest guy in the entire SW universe

This is stupid. To factor luck into a battle is stupid.

Well, so far you've concluded that hyperbole and exaggeration holds nothing in a versus thread.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Guys, I think you ar overanalyzing. Han is a gunslinger, and would get the first shot (if this was a shootout) one shot from Hans gun and Carth is dead.


DAMMIT WILL I NOT BE ACKNOWLEDGED!?

Uh huh. "Han is a gunslinger".

Go watch ANH. Count how many people Han Solo kills with the first shot aside from the horrid Greedo scene.

Now move on to ESB...

ROTJ?

Then come back to me with a total and say "Han's a gunslinger". If he were a dead shot he would be able to hit his target over 80% of the time, especially considering that he has a heavy blaster which blows holes in the insolated walls of the Tatooine space hangar pretty damn big.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
We know more about Leia then Ragnos, could she defeat him?

Did you see how Leia handled Jabba? She'd so take out Ragnos.

Yeah, combination of skimpy outfit and erotic chain game and she comes out on top... no pun intended.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
no pun intended.
but still there. Good one lol.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Again, this needs to be put into context. This is not "Feat Wars"; this is evaluating and deciding who would win in a fight, not who smuggled the most spice. Sheesh. If smuggling was that hard, there wouldn't be drop outs, losers, and other rabble doing it all the time.


Yes. Smuggling stuff arround while having the Imperial Navy flying around anywhere is an easy job of course. That's why so many smugglers were killed or captured by Imperials.



Yes. That it was him who made the Rebels able to destroy both Death Stars actually didn't matter much. By the way - what was Carth doing that greatly aided the Republic in the Wars vs the Mandalorians and the JCW ?



And on the other handside it would be nice to have someone indicating where Carth depicted actions that put him above Han Solo in combat since we basically do not know why he was a War Hero (was it fighting ability ? Tactics ?) and anything he might have done during KotoR is up to gaming experience.



Yes. It indicates nothing. Is there any reason for Carth being able to defeat Han in a shoot-out other than "Carth was a legendary war hero" which is according to your own words subjective impression ?



I know but at the end of his smuggler career he's simply one of if not the best (that's implied in the ANH special edition when Jabba talks to him). But you're right...feat wars.



Nice reasoning. The best bounty hunter in the Galaxy and second most powerful being in the Galaxy were the only persons able to catch him - that really totaly questions his deception abilities. That he somehow managed to avoid or kill almost every "famous" bounty hunter in the Galaxy trying to catch him doesn't matter.



Yes ? According to the rules of the SW universe there is no "luck" meaning everything that can be seen as "luck" is either the "will of the force" or "personal force attunement". At least something where Han outclasses Carth.

lmfao

I like how you skipped the part where you called him a "legendary thief" and I corrected you, Nai. You're getting a bit bad at this... You can't be selective with your rebuttals.

Han killed DE Sidious. He pwns all!!!11!1!!1!!11

Originally posted by Deus Ex
lmfao

I like how you skipped the part where you called him a "legendary thief" and I corrected you, Nai. You're getting a bit bad at this... You can't be selective with your rebuttals.

And I like how you skipped my entire last posting to just point at the "legendary thief" thing.

What would you have liked as a comment from me ? "Yes, Janus !" or "You're right, Janus !" or "Man was I dumb thanks for enlighten me, Janus!" or "Let's see - he spend a big time of his youth doing pickpocketing and stole a huge amount of the art collection of Teroenza worth several hundretthousands credits and the private yacht of T'landa Til from a planet controlled by the Hutts which makes him an effective thief."

Pick your favourite one. Print it out. Put it into a nice frame and attach it to the wall next to your computer monitor and don't forget to mark the date in you calendar writing a note into it: "The day I made Nai comment on something he didn't think to be of any pertinence in further discussion."

And if you have some time left after doing it, Your Excellency - and really only if it doesn't affronts your superior intellect - you can (and please note that this is only a pleasing request from one of your totally inferior servants who isn't even worth having you waste a second of your precious free time for him) answer the rest of my posting. Not that I would care if you don't do it.

Submissive enough for your exquisite taste ?

Yes my child. You may go.

Nai, it seems like you're getting into arguments with everyone thesedays.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Yes my child. You may go.

Thank you very much.



Sure I am. That's the result of being a cynical, egomanic ass having the self-confidence of a half-god and don't care much about others. Don't try this at home kids.

Meh, it's just how sarcastic and disagreeable he comes off as.... When was the last time Nai and I agreed on a single thing? And of course every time we disagree I have to prepare for ten pages of Online Warfare, and I'm not talkin' Guild Wars action here. Honestly, I'd rather get an HJ from Captain Hook than debate with anyone for more than a few posts. It's tiring, and nothing is ever solved. No one ever goes "Omigawd... you're right! I see the light!" and then we all go back to the Winchester for a pint. Never ever ever happens.

Now, that being said, I like Nai. He's smart and educated and funny. He just pisses me off a lot. But legendary thief? I'm sorry man... I was trying to be nice until that point. Legendary thief is someone you'd never hear of, just because they're -that- good. It's like having a ninja with a battle rifle.

Jumbo Shrimp, Military Intelligence... Legendary Thief.

Honestly the only way to be a legendary thief is if you suck.

Yeah, and if Han was a legendary thief, he must have been in hiding in that dingy, stinky bar on some backasswards planet owing money to a guy who doesn't have the legs to kick his ass.

Han....though I do like Carth....

zOMG! Random Julie post!

wb!

Hiya deus...whatd'ya expect out of me....this week I prob won't have internet at the apt by school so randomness has to come out now for the next 15 minutes....

besides...tests and all...bad for star wars posting

Definately. Well, this too shall pass.

Thanks. Thank goodness too:-) I think I'd go crazy if this was life all the time.

side note:
Carth's a cool character but Han's got history

Originally posted by Deus Ex
It's tiring, and nothing is ever solved. No one ever goes "Omigawd... you're right! I see the light!" and then we all go back to the Winchester for a pint. Never ever ever happens.

What about when I convinced you that the GE would be the Sith Empire?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Meh, it's just how sarcastic and disagreeable he comes off as.... When was the last time Nai and I agreed on a single thing?


Sarcasm is part of my personality. Since my friends can live with it (It's a difference typing certain things or directly saying them to somebody) I did never bother to change it.

Last time we agreed on something ? Some minutes ago: Dark Troopers being able to kick ass in the Kyle vs Cin thread. I absolutely agree with that statement !



It's the nature of this forum that most things remain unsolved here since we're basically discussing battles of fictional persons while having nearly no information about most of them and statements that are directly contradicting each other in the sources we can use (seen that while discussing with Glentract - "I, Jedi" contradicts the JA trilogy on some occassions).
It's not very likely to solve problems on a field like that but you can get closer to some "agreeable" statements by discussing things and their are some nice ideas developed here.



Woohoo. Another statement I can agree with. Basically the same view I have about you.



Hmmm....yes. Thinking about the point like this you're right. I have to go play some more RPGs again.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What about when I convinced you that the GE would be the Sith Empire?

Yeah, but that's more rare than an albino President.