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Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven?

Well I ain't no God but if I was God.... there is no way in hell Bob gets into heaven. No matter how many times you memorize the bible or attend Church everyday. If you don't have love in your heart or compasion you don't belong in the kingdom of heaven (if sucha place exists).

As for Joe not believing in God makes no difference. If he has kind heart and is consider a "good man" by his fellow man. Then Let him in. I'm sure honest merits and a kind heart will get a person into heaven. An Atheist only asks for proof. And I'm sure that if Joe sees Bob heading down to hell it will be proof enough for him.

AND..that's exactly what Jesus taught along with the good things that Buddha taught...It's your actions, your heart, all the things that are considered the fruits of the spirit...Bob can go to church all he wants and it's just and outer action with no inner redeeming qualities...Too bad there are many like that today...Bob is what I would consider a FAKE Christian...and give Christian's a bad name...I'm sure Bobs neighbor already knows that..

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven?

Both would be in purgetory.

The answer to the first question: I would have to contradict. When you go to church you are "taught" more or less. So to love God/Jesus, you must do good avoid evil. This man would not truley be living his love to God if he was constantly doing wrong. And maybe Bob would have a problem.

The second answer: He wouldn't be so good if God wasn't working his grace within him. But what to me would seem rather ironic is if the athiest were to lose everything, who would he blame? So i'm thinkging down the road the dude/dudet is finally going to realize something important, and return to "A" religion.

But you have to remember that alot of these answers will be based on our own beliefs and princples, so your answer will never come close to that of the real one.

Seems to me that if the second one was a good person though, wouldnt god maybe be sympathetic and help him out a little?

Ofcourse God will take more kindly to Joe than Bob.

Joe's biggest failing is not recognizing God, but Bob's
failing is in recognizing God, but willfully disobeying
Him.

I believe that God doesn't just want people to join the
"club" just for the hell of it, but because it is said to
make better people of them. And Joe seems to have
reached that goal without becoming a Christian.

Ofcourse, being a Christian would have given a good
Bob a leg up on Joe, but that wouldn't be the case here.

Granted being a Christian may have some spiritual and
emotional advantages over atheism, but I don't think
that God puts those over the actual deeds and thought
of a human being when judging them.

Besides Jesus makes it quite clear when he says "Know them by their fruits", and "That tree that does not produce will be burnt down", They wiil be cut off, pulled up, cast aside and burnt, They are known as tares that grown in with the wheat. Jesus taught much on how to recognize a TRUE followe of his words...Good advise I'd say..

fruit of the loom?

NO..fruit of the LOON.

It all depends.... if Bob repents on his death bed, he goes straight to heaven... if Joe carries on denying god, he perishes in the pit of fire.... according to the bible anyway....

But lets not forget the most important detail. Neither of us are God.

According to the Bible, the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, meaning you have to accept him as your lord and savior. But if you do not follow his ideals, then you do not get into Heaven. People will sin no matter what. But if you ask for forgiveness, as Kirk said, you will go to Heaven. But that's according to the Bible. I'm a Universalist/Agnostic.

Well, guess what. I'm creating my own heaven, and there are no ignorant christians allowed. There will be tons of sex(but no babies, because we allow abortion AND contraception) great food and comic books.

Make sure to put up plenty of peace signs and decorate with flowers. Then import lots and lots of drugs. The hippies will love you.

Long-haired, filthy, smelly, drug-abusing bastards.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven?

Judging by your story.It is up to those man on there dieing bed.If bob forgives his evil ways and prays for forgivness to god then ya I think he would go to heaven.JM

Bob is a Christian; he goes to heaven. Joe is not a Christian; he does not go to heaven.

Ignore Jackie; she is an open speaker for her (our) religion, but she is a moron and knows very little. Also, she cannot make a coherent point in an argument to save her life. In fact, she can't FOLLOW an argument to save her life.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Make sure to put up plenty of peace signs and decorate with flowers. Then import lots and lots of drugs. The hippies will love you.

Long-haired, filthy, smelly, drug-abusing bastards.


Well, that came out of nowhere.

The Key word is "Religious". I personally believe that sitting in a church doesnt make one a Christian any more than sitting in a garage makes one a car. Its all about Relationship, not Religion. But the thing that makes this story difficult is part of the bigger picture. The fact is, in this story neither of these men are dead. So, they'll remain on earth. In the bible there is a verse "God wishes that NONE shall perish" this includes everyone from your devout christian, to your practicing satanist. life is not over until its over. The course of life is a long and complex odyssee, one that God uses to make our character grow. I personally think that neither of these men will die without every moment being another moment to find truith (Whatever it may be)...So, these men could go wherever they choose. But the test isnt over, until you're dead.

"It's not dead till you make it."

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven?
Faith alone cannot save a man.
And works, having no faith at all, do not merit a man to enter the heavenly abode.

But according to God's mercy, He saves us.

This mercy is THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord... by following God's will, which He purposed in Christ since the world began.

God in His mercy saves All men...Because all things are possible with God.

Originally posted by Jury
Faith alone cannot save a man.
And works, having no faith at all, do not merit a man to enter the heavenly abode.

But according to God's mercy, He saves us.

This mercy is THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord... by following God's will, which He purposed in Christ since the world began.



Faith ha. Religion is crap, invented by man to make money and to gain power thorugh manipulation and...holy shit...it worked! The church is THE most profitable buisness in the world and only those who refuse to pay out are free of its hold, othe than their belief. God as said by Jesus is the father of earth, he created it in his image to prosper, much like why we have ant farms, to watch somthing you control grow on it's own. Religion is a BUISNESS CREATED BY MAN TO CONTROL AND PROFIT THROUGH MANIPULATION as i have said above. God let's those who have kindness and compassion in their heart (among other qualities) into heaven, Our athiest subject when he comes face to face with god will either believe or continue denial (although i do believe in the possibilities that god may or may not exist) he will be let into heaven to eventually come to the conclusion that "hey, god does exist" unless it turns out he's right and once he dies, he simply stops sxisting on earth.

True, you don't have to have faith in my opinion...God is bigger then games played with humans eternal existences. Why do people put God in a box...

God, according to His mercy, He saves us.

Yes, He saves all of us...even unbelievers...To not do so would give him small human emotions...And He is not that..a small Human.

In my case, I do believe in Judgment Day... so unbelievers are bound to hell on Judgment Day, according to the Bible.

But Hell was taken from the Persians...Don't you realize that. It's not in the OT. The Jews don't believe in it...It was never taught by Them, and Jesus was a Jew...I'm sure the Jews would say, Hey, what is this hell thing...this was invented, cause our god never talked about a hell..Hell was adapted in the 2nd century by the church...Really, it was.

Sorry for using the term "Hell"... Since I am a Christian, I do believe in Judgment Day... and unbelievers are bound to "eternal punishment in the lake of fire". I believe in both OT and NT. In God's Kingdom and in the Lake of Fire... and not in Purgatory.

Do you believe the OT speaks of Hell as a place of eternal burning damnation? If so, could you give me the verse?

I didn't say OT speaks of "Hell" as eternal damnation... I said, as a Christian, I believe in both the OT and NT.

so where does the and unbelievers are bound to "eternal punishment in the lake of fire". comes from then

The idea of eternal punishment for unbelievers are found in both the OT and NT.

Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
Isaiah 14:21, NIV


Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15, NIV

you actually just underlined what debbie said earlier

The idea of Hell was imposed in the 2nd century by the church..The book of Revelation was not part of the cannon...Revelation was the most controversial book and was constantly taken in and out of the cannon depending on what Pope was in power...This information is in a Catholic book that I have.

Also notice that your quote of Isiah IS NOT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT..AND
there are other writings by Isaiah as well not included in cannon...Have you not wondered why??? They are more Gnostic...The church didn't like the Gnostic's because they didn't have an eternal hell for the church to be able to manipulate them with..They believed in the inward worship of God and not the outward rituals. The church is concerned with the outward. There were more Gnostic texts then non Gnostic tests...

Originally posted by FeceMan
Long-haired, filthy, smelly, drug-abusing bastards.

No, Jesus won't be there.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
No, Jesus won't be there.
I will not dignify that with the response you desire.

Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
Isaiah 14:21, NIV

The ones (who had gone thru First Death) who will rise to inherit the land (the eternal life) are those included in the First Resurrection.

And the ones who will not rise to inherit the land (but to rise for judgment in the Second Death) are those will be part of the Second Resurrection:

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15, NIV

You already posted those verses...And yes I was raised with the same view of the first and second resurrection and the Great White Thrown judgement. I already posted my reply, but keep in mind that in Rev..it doesn't say eternal burning...or eternal punishing..SO, according to this verse, the dead are resurrected to be judged and thrown into the fire to be burnt up..gone forever...NOW, if these people died and went to Hell, they just got a small break..They got out of burning torment to be judged and thrown back into burning torment, if you believe that hell is forever burning...Doesn't make sense does it?

Because I'm just agreeing with the Biblical pronouncement regarding the place where there will be "gnashing of teeth" ... "day and night".

Originally posted by FeceMan
I will not dignify that with the response you desire.

LOL...come on, I'm just picking on you.

Originally posted by Jury
Because I'm just agreeing with the Biblical pronouncement regarding the place where there will be "gnashing of teeth" ... "day and night".


The weeping and gnashing of teeth day and night I explained earlier on, but REMEMBER, when the OT and NT was written, the concept of a burning hell was not yet implemented..That came in the 2nd century.

Originally posted by debbiejo
The weeping and gnashing of teeth day and night I explained earlier on, but REMEMBER, when the OT and NT was written, the concept of a burning hell was not yet implemented..That came in the 2nd century.

you know, just to leap off topic for a moment, Debbie, you really impress me. I'm so glad you're willing to research your own religion. Even if you don't reach the same conclusion I did, I still think you rule for being willing to listen to the facts...AND for going out of your way to become more informed. Good for you.

Yes. I agree, deb.

But the Biblical truth remains that unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

tv_horror


Sometimes it can be a scary place..

biblical truth huh, if I ever saw a contradiction............

The Bible should be called "Scare Tactics"....I love that show...

If you are an amazingly good person who goes and does community service, helps with charity and are just amazingly unselfish, but you are atheist, do u go to hell?

If so, where's the fairness in that>

Well since you use the word "hell" than that means your referring to the Christ deity. Which means that if you dont even believe in God in the first place how to you expect to enter into his kingdom?

hell is nothing more than a christian invention so is the idea of heaven

I was answering his question in relation to the word he used.

Hell is not a place you go after death.

there is no fairness in that. but yea if u believe in christianity/islam/some forms of judaism you do indeed go to hell and for eternity as even the worst BELIEVERS in islam will get out of hell after their punishment is finished no matter what theyv done if they only believe in there being one god and messenger etc. on the other hand any1 who doesnt believe in that no matter how good will burn eternally in the deepest pit of hell. itss all BULLSHIT though

Well if you're Catholic you can pay to get out.....

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven? joe is cool. Bob is a dick. If there was a heaven and a god, neither would go. Because god sucks.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven?

No, neither of them will let into heaven. They're both following parts of the Bible but ignoring other parts as well. That alone is a sin.

All one has to do is to ask for forgiveness and then god will take you into heaven now Bob may ask for forgiveness because he is christian and will be in a desperate attempt on his death bed, but Joe who is an athiest wont think about asking for forgiveness so any sins he did commit will be seen and canceled out by other good deeds and depending on which he has more of (which seems to be good deeds) he will be let into heaven, they would be both let into heaven because one had asked for forgiveness and one was a good person

Originally posted by lancethebrave
but Joe who is an athiest wont think about asking for forgiveness so any sins he did commit will be seen and canceled out by other good deeds and depending on which he has more of (which seems to be good deeds) he will be let into heaven, they would be both let into heaven because one had asked for forgiveness and one was a good person

Thats not how it. Go read the Bible and dont try to pass on perversion. You can in no way not even believe in God and still expect to enter into his kingdom when you die. Plus if haven't repented of your sins and they aren't under the blood no amount of good deeds will matter in the end because you didn't follow the Bible. What kind of idiot are you?

My Bible says "lest any man be born again of the water and of the spirit they shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." What about yours?

Originally posted by Punker69
My Bible says "lest any man be born again of the water and of the spirit they shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." What about yours?
my bod had a few drinks tonight so guess I'm ok. spirits and all.......... ...............They're manifesting as I speak......

Holy Spirit.

Bob and Joe will receive the cause and effects related to their actions here in this life. There is a good chance that people around Bob and Joe know how they are and treat them accordingly. I doubt Bob has very many honest friends, were as, Joe has great friends. If you are a good person, you will draw to you good people, but if you are a bad person you will have bad people around you. Bob will go through hell in this life time because of the things he has done, but Joe with live in heaven because of the good people he has around him. When they both die, they will be reborn, but the karma they have gathered in this lifetime will fallow then into the next.

Is the concept of hell in Christianity compatible with the existence of a God which is perfectly loving?

Originally posted by Storm
Is the concept of hell in Christianity compatible with the existence of a God which is perfectly loving?


I would think not.

Originally posted by Storm
Is the concept of hell in Christianity compatible with the existence of a God which is perfectly loving?

If you choose to serve a life that glorifys Satan and not God and you reject his word at every cost he cannot let you into his kingdom. Besides, how hard is it to follow the word that he's set out for you. He doesn't ask for alot except that you give him the same love and admiration he's given you. If you cant see that then why should you go to heaven?

But Satans not real...........

Bob would not go to heaven unless he repented of his sins, and, from the sounds of it, that would be a long and painful process. Joe, on the other hand, wouldn't go to the highest glory in heaven, but would go to heaven nonetheless. You see, I don't believe that religion is everything. If you're a really great person, but not of the true church, you'll still be well thought of by God and let into his kingdom. If you're a member of the true church, however, and sin constantly with no remorse, than God still wouldn't like you any more than if you were an atheist. I hope that's a satisfactory explanation for you. Alright, let the anti-Christian comments flow.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Okay here is a scenario involving the fictional characters of bob and joe

Bob is a devout Christian. goes to church every Sunday, prays, and loves Jesus. But Bob is a bad person. He does nothing that doesnt benefit himself, and lies and cheats to get his way. but bob also genuinely believes in and loves God. He is a truly religious person

On the other hand, Bob's neighbor Joe is a great guy. He does community service, is always honest, and never cheats or steals. But Joe is also a declared Athiest. He has actively spoken out against the church and said publicly that he does not believe in God

My question is: Would God let either of these men into heaven?

Joe should go to Heaven, even if he doesn't believe in God. Bob should go to Hell, he's just selfish.

When Joe die he will go to Sheol which is nothingness, eternal blackness. If Bob repents he will go to heaven. If he does not he will go Sheol as well. This is the first death. After the second coming of Christ, the Tribulation, and his thousand year reign will come judgement day. Satan will be given one last chance to deceive all people, dead and alive. Then those in Sheol that repent and acknowledge the Lord will get into heaven. Those that listen to Satan's lies will be cast into the lake of fire. And debbie eternal punishment is mentioned by Jesus himself in Matthew 25:46. It does exist, but until the second coming. Sheol is what exists now. It is much like the Catholic perception of Purgatory. Punishment with chance of release. Hell which will be opened at the second coming is eternal for those that enter it.

The answer to this question is....god doesnt exist.

some people are plain stupid and someone needs to eat a carrot an wake up to the real world,............as of punker69 he is just plain brain washed moron with his head so far up his preachers ass he might be considered a new tooth

To summarize the general opinion:

Bob only has to say "Im sorry" and hes in heaven.
Joe, on the otherhand, is f*cked.

How depressing is that?

guess bob is the name tohave

What you give is what you get. God would prefer a person that does right without faith in god above a person that upholds that faith to disguise one's inability to act right.

Originally posted by finti
some people are plain stupid and someone needs to eat a carrot an wake up to the real world,............as of punker69 he is just plain brain washed moron with his head so far up his preachers ass he might be considered a new tooth

Simply believing in God doesn't make you a christian,and Bob obviously has his own personal view of God because if he truly loved the christian incarnation of God he wouldn't do all that crap.

Yes,Joe wouldn't go to heaven(according to the Bible) hence why i don't believe in Christianity or any other religion

i understand everything the bible says (well, most of it), and i understand what we have to do to be saved and go to heaven. but, i have to admit, there is a certain scenario i was discussing the other day with a friend that perplexed me. here it is:

you have two guys. their names are, for arguemnts sake, jim and ed. jim is a family man. a good husband, a good father, gives back to the community, goes to church every sunday. he is basically an all around great guy.
then you have ed. ed is a killer/rapist. he grew up commiting crime after crime, getting worse and worse, until he was caught and sentenced to death.
one day, jim dies suddenly in a car crash. even though he was a great guy, he never turned his life over to jesus, therefore he was not saved, died a sinner, and will spend eternity in hell.
on the other hand, while on death row, ed discovers god. he genuinely believes in god and begs forgiveness for his sins, past and present. when he is executed, he goes to heaven.
this does not quite sit right with me. i think that jim made the mistake of all mistakes by not turning hislife over to god, but, in my opinion, ed had done too much (killed and raped many women and men) to be saved. i think that there should be a cutoff point, a point of no return, where you are beyond saving.

thoughts?

Thought 1. Did this really need a new thread?

Rhetorical Answer: No.

Thoguht 2: Christianity can be interpreted this way...and thats life.

Thought 3. JIA would totally side with the Jesus freak killer-rapist.

According to the Bible you can be the worst of the worst and plead on your death bed and get in........and also, you can be a nonbeliever and live a life of such charity and go to hell........

Whats wrong with this picture.

1. there is a god.

2. there is a heaven and hell

3. there is a afterlife

4. the god places you in heavan or hell in your afterlife.

A god of books and made in mans image.

Originally posted by Alliance
Thought 1. Did this really need a new thread?

Rhetorical Answer: No.

Thoguht 2: Christianity can be interpreted this way...and thats life.

Thought 3. JIA would totally side with the Jesus freak killer-rapist.
1. irrevelant
2. no thoughts? thats a change
3. good point
4. thats a possibility

It's sooo silly that people talk about God and gods like they did in ancient times, when what ever there is could care less and be much above our thinking.......WE couldn't even comprehend it at all......

is that really relevant to this thread?

Yes it is..........Sin and consequence to something that isn't even real......

It was not related to the orignial concept of god.

The original concept of god is false.......and so is the consequences to it IMO....It's all just myths over and over again........A real god wouldn't even care..........It would be beyond this petty human fraility.....

So why did Jim go to Church every Sunday if he hadn't handed his life over to Jesus?

Originally posted by debbiejo
The original concept of god is false.......and so is the consequences to it IMO....It's all just myths over and over again........A real god wouldn't even care..........It would be beyond this petty human fraility.....

original concept? nature spirits?

Originally posted by Alliance
original concept? nature spirits? Original concept is the Pagan/Christian concept............

Thats a broad definition.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes it is..........Sin and consequence to something that isn't even real......
its not real in YOUR opinion.

there no evidence for it being real.

theres no proof that it is not real. whats your point?

There is evidence. Lets start with this.

1. Supernatural events don't happen.

2. Religions are made up by humans.

Supernatural events do happen.

example.

supernatural events can be seen as many things. they can, in fact, be supernatural. they could be weather related (UFO's and shit), they could be the mind playing tricks on you.
i have never seen a ghost, but i am in no position to say that they do not exist.
religion is DOCUMENTED by humans.

Originally posted by Alliance
example. Miracles and healing happen all the time by different faiths and even people of different beliefs........Its been document on TV many times.........There are just things we don't quite understand yet they do happen....It's not a god per say that is doing it, but I believe it is the collective power of our selves being part of the creative process.......It does happen..........Studding some quantum string and other theories I have seen how this is possible.

Imagining things doe NOT make them real.

Originally posted by Alliance
Imagining things doe NOT make them real.
but if someone imagines seeing a ghost, in their mind it is real. if someone imagines they are possessed, they will act possessed.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

religion is DOCUMENTED by humans.

In what sense has religion been "documented" by humans?

Originally posted by Alliance
Imagining things doe NOT make them real. I suppose the discovery and Science Channel with all their equipment were imagining

Its called television. Peoplue used to think that science labs looked like things from Frankenstein.

No one answers my questions. I am deeply wounded (sorry, I couldn't keep a straight face)

Would you like me to switch sides and argue with you?

Originally posted by Alliance
Would you like me to switch sides and argue with you?

No, its ok, and I figure I was asking only for the sake of asking rather then some deep hunger to know the answer.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
In what sense has religion been "documented" by humans?
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/
need some more examples?

Originally posted by Alliance
Its called television. Peoplue used to think that science labs looked like things from Frankenstein. Not from what I have seen on the science channel and have read.........There are unexplainable things that we just cannot say is NOT Real when it is documented by scientists and doctors.......Maybe you are not looking at ALL the materials out there ...........btw, I'm not talking about god or religion.....

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/
need some more examples?

Humor me... other then lots of pages relating to circumcision in a religious sense how does this documentation somehow "prove" religion?



Well there is the chance there are perfectly acceptable, non-supernatural reasons behind all such things, and we simply aren't advanced enought yo understand them.

After all, remember it was possible for some guys with a bit of armor and some guns to convince people they were gods - and a lot of early religion was that. Attributing the supernatural to things a person/culture wasn't sufficiently advanced to understand.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Humor me... other then lots of pages relating to circumcision in a religious sense how does this documentation somehow "prove" religion?
it proves nothing. it does, however, give its followers some sort of history.
either you believe it or you dont.

IMO How can religion be a true thing? It is only a belief in stories...Religions are ONLY STORIES.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
No one answers my questions. I am deeply wounded (sorry, I couldn't keep a straight face) I'm reading/listening...............

Originally posted by debbiejo
IMO How can religion be a true thing? It is only a belief in stories...Religions are ONLY STORIES.
like i said. you either believe it or you dont.

no...there is an idea called agnosciticsm.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
it proves nothing. it does, however, give its followers some sort of history.
either you believe it or you dont.

So religion being documented is simply the fact people have believed in it over the years and written about it as they have believed? Ghosts then have also been documented. People believe in them, write books filled with grainy/blurry pictures about them. That's documenting as well.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So religion being documented is simply the fact people have believed in it over the years and written about it as they have believed? Ghosts then have also been documented. People believe in them, write books filled with grainy/blurry pictures about them. That's documenting as well.
take the bible for example. those who believe in it believe that it was documented by actual events, not made up events. i believe in the bible. you dont. ok?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i understand everything the bible says (well, most of it), and i understand what we have to do to be saved and go to heaven. but, i have to admit, there is a certain scenario i was discussing the other day with a friend that perplexed me. here it is:

you have two guys. their names are, for arguemnts sake, jim and ed. jim is a family man. a good husband, a good father, gives back to the community, goes to church every sunday. he is basically an all around great guy.
then you have ed. ed is a killer/rapist. he grew up commiting crime after crime, getting worse and worse, until he was caught and sentenced to death.
one day, jim dies suddenly in a car crash. even though he was a great guy, he never turned his life over to jesus, therefore he was not saved, died a sinner, and will spend eternity in hell.
on the other hand, while on death row, ed discovers god. he genuinely believes in god and begs forgiveness for his sins, past and present. when he is executed, he goes to heaven.
this does not quite sit right with me. i think that jim made the mistake of all mistakes by not turning hislife over to god, but, in my opinion, ed had done too much (killed and raped many women and men) to be saved. i think that there should be a cutoff point, a point of no return, where you are beyond saving.

thoughts? Sin is not estimated in values. To us murder seems a whole lot worse than hate but in God's eyes they're all the same to Him. One sin is not greater than another they are all sin.

To give more insight in the issue the term 'sin' was originally an archery term used for, "missing the mark". The way we use sin is essentially very similar. Basically anything that falls short of God's plan and purpose for your life is a sin. This is why it's impossible to be good enough to get into heaven, and also why God made a way for us to get into heaven that bypassed the necessity of being perfect.

Whew. This is probably the last post I'll ever make on the Religion forum. I don't know what possessed me to reply this time. I seriously doubt one could coax me to do it again.

1 Corinthians 1:20-31 Read them.

Originally posted by Psyquis52
Sin is not estimated in values. To us murder seems a whole lot worse than hate but in God's eyes they're all the same to Him. One sin is not greater than another they are all sin.

To give more insight in the issue the term 'sin' was originally an archery term used for, "missing the mark". The way we use sin is essentially very similar. Basically anything that falls short of God's plan and purpose for your life is a sin. This is why it's impossible to be good enough to get into heaven, and also why God made a way for us to get into heaven that bypassed the necessity of being perfect.

Whew. This is probably the last post I'll ever make on the Religion forum. I don't know what possessed me to reply this time. I seriously doubt one could coax me to do it again.

1 Corinthians 1:20-31 Read them.
*coaxes you*

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
*coaxes you* Noooooooooo!!!!! The coaxing is more than I can bear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
take the bible for example. those who believe in it believe that it was documented by actual events, not made up events. i believe in the bible. you dont. ok?

And people who believe in Ghosts believe they are documented by actual events. Typically when it comes to religion things are very shaky when one starts trying to shoehorn the occurrences of a Biblical texts into the flow of history. The history of the Bible only vaguely fits in with history.

And people would believe if it was "documented" or not, after all they have continued to believe despite the amount that has been shown as untrue by history and science.

shouldnt you be out on a ledge somewhere?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
shouldnt you be out on a ledge somewhere?

?

what? yo udont get it? you should.
if you do get it, dont take it too seriously. its just a joke.

?

ah, forget it. i just ran it by my coworker and he didnt get it either.

Out on a ledge only, to my knowledge refers to people on uncertain grounds (which I'm not, everything I said is fairly solid), committing suicide (which since I love my life so much I wont be doing) and gargoyles (which is just silly.)



Sounds like he has his head screwed on right.

i was just kidding with you, man.


gotta bail. cya!!!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ah, forget it. i just ran it by my coworker and he didnt get it either.

Rule 87: Once is a coincidence. Two's a trend.

Originally posted by Alliance
Rule 87: Once is a coincidence. Two's a trend.

Yes, agreed.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i understand everything the bible says (well, most of it), and i understand what we have to do to be saved and go to heaven. but, i have to admit, there is a certain scenario i was discussing the other day with a friend that perplexed me. here it is:

you have two guys. their names are, for arguemnts sake, jim and ed. jim is a family man. a good husband, a good father, gives back to the community, goes to church every sunday. he is basically an all around great guy.
then you have ed. ed is a killer/rapist. he grew up commiting crime after crime, getting worse and worse, until he was caught and sentenced to death.
one day, jim dies suddenly in a car crash. even though he was a great guy, he never turned his life over to jesus, therefore he was not saved, died a sinner, and will spend eternity in hell.
on the other hand, while on death row, ed discovers god. he genuinely believes in god and begs forgiveness for his sins, past and present. when he is executed, he goes to heaven.
this does not quite sit right with me. i think that jim made the mistake of all mistakes by not turning hislife over to god, but, in my opinion, ed had done too much (killed and raped many women and men) to be saved. i think that there should be a cutoff point, a point of no return, where you are beyond saving.

thoughts?

You don't go to heaven or hell after you die. That is the only way that your scenario can be true. The simple truth is something hard to face, but we live and then we die. That is our nature, we are at balance with the world. However, we are all connected to each other; we have a shared conciseness, so our energy is never lost, we simple return from were we came. I personally believe that we return, when the time is right, but it is just a belief.

No. Conscious (human) life is the act of being out of balance. Out of harmony with the earth. When we die, we return to balance.

Originally posted by Alliance
No. Conscious (human) life is the act of being out of balance. Out of harmony with the earth. When we die, we return to balance.

You are only assigning terms. I think life is the inevitable consequence of the solidification of energy.

It might be. But humans are different. We are unbalance.

Originally posted by Alliance
It might be. But humans are different. We are unbalance.

How are we any more unbalanced then any other life form?

We create and destroy much more than any other life form. We have highly complex motives with highly complex effects.

Like the greek myth of Prometheus...we have fire. We are a higher power on this planet (instert Spiderman responsibility quote). We are power, industrialism, motivation.

Originally posted by Alliance
We create and destroy much more than any other life form. We have highly complex motives with highly complex effects.

Like the greek myth of Prometheus...we have fire. We are a higher power on this planet (instert Spiderman responsibility quote). We are power, industrialism, motivation.

And in a flash, we could be gone, and all that would be left is the true masters of this world, bacteria and it's like.

No..they are not the masters. I never said we weren't fragile...

Originally posted by Alliance
No..they are not the masters. I never said we weren't fragile...

Sure sounded like that to me.

Good night, my friend...

ok.

THERE IS NO ETERNAL FATE.............If only people knew this.

Originally posted by debbiejo
THERE IS NO ETERNAL FATE.............If only people knew this.

Well some people do, and there are then a lot of people who refuse to even entertain the idea it might be so.

Very very sad.........so sad that people are trying to perfect themselves for this Heaven..................

Lol.

Thank goodness that God is such a bastard that all you have to do is ask for forgiveness and it's given.

Everyone who asks forgiveness will go to heaven. That's the baseline. People who have done good works will be higher than the baseline.

Originally posted by FeceMan

Everyone who asks forgiveness will go to heaven. That's the baseline. People who have done good works will be higher than the baseline. So what's the deal with this??? Is god a person (though I don't feel it is) Isn't it a mans ego type thinking? A real deity would consider what it has made and understand it to the max. It would be COMPASSIONATE towards them, not condemn them for the frailties it installed in them, the curiosities, the wanderings, etc..... A god that would condemn it's own creatures to what it has given them in the first place is just like a mortal man............See?