odin and zeus v molecule man

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leonidas
MM is one tough sob. tough enough to handle both the old school skygods?

armandovalles
i dont think anyone besides the celestials, eternity, infinity, death, and LT can handle both Zeus and Odin at the same time.

Zahit
A Sky-father like Odin or Zeus would barely even notice Owen Reece at the bottom of their shoe....

Molecule man
Owen would destroy both of them if they really make him mad.

Zahit
If Owen got mad, they wouldn't even notice.......except maybe to scrape him off their royal loafers.

Molecule man
I guess you are not familiar with Owen, do you even who he is?
At least im pretty sure you haven't seen him for a long time

Zahit
he's the molecule man. control over molecules. incredibly powerful.
there ain't a damn thing he can do to counter the magical powers of
a sky-father. they can alter molecular structures as well as an untold
number of other abilities and powers. many of which are magic-based.
molecule man is not magic-based. although more powerful than them,
even galactus wouldn't just start a fight with a sky-father.

K3VIL
Originally posted by Zahit
he's the molecule man. control over molecules. incredibly powerful.
there ain't a damn thing he can do to counter the magical powers of
a sky-father. they can alter molecular structures as well as an untold
number of other abilities and powers. many of which are magic-based.
molecule man is not magic-based. although more powerful than them,
even galactus wouldn't just start a fight with a sky-father.
Oh what I'm force to read.Galactus can obliterate Odin or Zeus with ease, even both them.

GalacticStorm
Odin and zeus would take this one but solely due to their mystical abilities. Molecule mans very powerful. If the cube beings are just below the abstracts and owens like the most dangerous of them id put him at high skyfather level

Molecule man
Get real guys Owen wouldn't even break a sweat if he really get his mind together

GalacticStorm
im agreeing with u MM. He is really powerful but hes got no defense against mystical abilities. His power holds no sway over them at all. If for the purposes of this battle we were to ban them from using mystical powers then i believe owen would win.

Zahit
Of course Galactus is much more powerful than a Sky-father, but he
wouldn't recklessly use up his powers to fight one for the hell of it.
When Thanos and Odin battled, Odin proved to be more powerful and
had Thanos on the ropes. In Thanos' ongoing series, he gave Galactus
a bit of a fight, but was overwhelmed of course. He then later showed
Galactus that he can be out-smarted and if he got out-of-line, there are
forces in the universe that would find a way to take him down.

K3VIL
Originally posted by Zahit
Of course Galactus is much more powerful than a Sky-father, but he
wouldn't recklessly use up his powers to fight one for the hell of it.
When Thanos and Odin battled, Odin proved to be more powerful and
had Thanos on the ropes. In Thanos' ongoing series, he gave Galactus
a bit of a fight, but was overwhelmed of course. He then later showed
Galactus that he can be out-smarted and if he got out-of-line, there are
forces in the universe that would find a way to take him down.
First of all, Thano didn't give Galactus a fight.
It can't even be called a fight.He just blasted him at full force, merely destroying his helmet, and please, just look at Big G size, he was pretty much weakned, he was under the 30 feet size.Yes Thanos send him flying with that energy blast, but then Galactus come back and with a single hit subdued him leaving Thanos begging for mercy, the being that was going to eat our Universe outsmart Galactus, but you gotta understand that a Universe Eater, is on a different scale from that of a Sky Father, so your example doesn't fit.

Zahit
i see your point.
i won't argue cause i more or less agree and it's freakin' friday.
but sky-fathers are definitely too much for molecule man.

i would love to see some conflict between galactus and
zeus for example. now that the asgardians are gone, it
would be nice to show-off some of the other pantheons.

leonidas
hmm, methinks some here are not properly respecting owen:

<<reece could now control all matter, even down to the molecular level, and all energy>> i'm guessing that also includes MAGIC energy - otherwise dr strange would have wrecked owen in the SWII series.

<<uatu, the alien water whose task it is to observe Earth, recognized the dire threat owen posed to the MULTIVERSE>>

it is also said that though his power was less than the beyonder's it was close, and he battled the beyonder one on one for a prolonged period of time.

still think odin and zeus take this one?

Zahit
beyonder's power was also somewhat illusion-based,
making him appear more powerful than he really is.
but of course, marvel keeps upgrading/changing
peoples' powers and there's no character consistency anymore.....
.....so really.....who the hell knows anymore.

isn't aunt may a sky-mothering cube-being now.....

DigiMark007
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, methinks some here are not properly respecting owen:

<<reece could now control all matter, even down to the molecular level, and all energy>> i'm guessing that also includes MAGIC energy - otherwise dr strange would have wrecked owen in the SWII series.

<<uatu, the alien water whose task it is to observe Earth, recognized the dire threat owen posed to the MULTIVERSE>>

it is also said that though his power was less than the beyonder's it was close, and he battled the beyonder one on one for a prolonged period of time.

still think odin and zeus take this one?


This is hte best argument I've seen. I'll agree with it.

Sure Beyonder's powers were said to be partly based on illusion, but what exactly does that mean? He was still wicked powerful. It doesn't discredit everything he did in his comics.

And while the Skyfathers obviously have Dr. Strange trumped in many ways, Strange is a magical badass. Some people's arguments are revolving around the mysical forces or magic of the Skyfathers protecting them from being removed from existence or defeated by MM...then why couldn't Strange do anything to Molecule Man?

Molcule wins

-DM

Beyonder
Molecule Man 5-7/10. Cube beings are more powerful than Skyfathers.

Molecule man
Owen is the most powerful of all cube beings this is a mismatch, Skyfathers are nothing against Owen

GalacticStorm
I thought owen being human made him the most powerful of them due to his human imagination and therfore how he would apply his powers. I didnt think it was in terms of energy he generates because he's still an incomplete cosmic cube. Either way the CC beings are somewhere between high skyfather level and low level abstract beings in terms of power and status. Odin or zeus goin against MM alone would be a mismatch therefore, but when you have the two arguably most powerful skyfathers around then i think they have what it takes to beat owen colectively

Molecule man
Odin and Zeus are nothing compared to Owen.

GalacticStorm
MM after the whole retcon the cube beings were powered down and took a masssive dive in the hierarchy. All the feats of these cube beings were written off because their powers were stated to be highly illusion based. Its been stated where theyre positioned in the scheme of things. They are between the skyfathers and the abstracts and thats that. No arguments because that is common knowledge and it was stated in the comics as you well know. In that case, the TWO most powerful skyfathers not only extremely powerful conventionally but highly proficient in the mystical arts which owens scientific/real world physics based powers wouldnt be so effective against. If they didnt have those abilities then it would be more debatable but as it is against both of them going all out i dont think owen can take this. I know you love owen quite obviously but what im saying stands to reason and you know this. Plus its based on what has been said in the comics.

Molecule man
Have you read FF 27 Owen easily defeated Beyonder and Kubik begged him to spare Beyonders life. And no way skyfathers are on cube level

Maestro
yea, he managed to use his power to drag kosmos and kubik from a different part of the universe to Earth and change Kosmos back into the Beyonder, that shows how powerful he is.

GalacticStorm
have you not read what i typed in my previous posts. I will say this one last time. MM is between skyfathers and abstract beings. BETWEEN. Also if all the cube beings have been depowered and all their feats written off as just being down to their highly illusion based powers then how is a fight between themselves going to convince me or anyone of how powerful MM is. ALL OF THEM got depowered in the retcon so taking out beyonder aint quite the feat it would have been back in the 80's. Times change.

GalacticStorm
"yea, he managed to use his power to drag kosmos and kubik from a different part of the universe to Earth and change Kosmos back into the Beyonder, that shows how powerful he is."

NO. That just confirms what i and MM have said in the past. That Owen is the most powerful of the cube beings. As all of them have been depowered thats still not all that impressive on a cosmic scale.

KillAll
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Sure Beyonder's powers were said to be partly based on illusion, but what exactly does that mean? He was still wicked powerful. It doesn't discredit everything he did in his comics.


actually it DOES discredit everything that the beyonder did. everything he did (all his impressive feats) were nothing more than illusions... he humbled the entire celestial host but it was an illusion... later while learning of his origins and what he was, he was told that single celestial would kill him (literally) if it noticed them, and that he should keep on moving.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And while the Skyfathers obviously have Dr. Strange trumped in many ways, Strange is a magical badass.

strange and a skyfather shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence wink odin can literally manipulate reality with the greatest of ease. dr strange couldnt even begin to harm juggernaut, while juggernaut couldnt even begin to harm odin.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
Some people's arguments are revolving around the mysical forces or magic of the Skyfathers protecting them from being removed from existence or defeated by MM...then why couldn't Strange do anything to Molecule Man?

Molcule wins




those arguements are legitimate though... galactus once stated that he dindt like mystical powers because his science based powers didnt function properly against it. also, atleast twice, odin stated that he repelled galactus when galactus came to asgard to feed. if odin by himself is capable of repelling galactus (non illusion) i doubt MM would be able to be more affective against him. also, strange isnt that powerful you shouldnt rely on him as credible in this debate wink

GalacticStorm
Go KA!!

Wonderman
Molecule Man is really an Individual of the Universe. He has free reign of the entierty of it. He would lay waste to the Sky Fathers and their realms without them ever knowing it had happened.
He's way more powerful than Galactus. He could kill him and raise him if he wanted.
No contest. Although the Skyfathers magic makes it seem interesting for like a moment.

GalacticStorm
Wonderman *sigh. He is a cube being. His powers derive from the same source as a cosmic cube. The cube beings in their sentient form and as cubes grant desires their powers are mostly illusion based. This has been stated in the comics. Please understand this. His feats have been written off and somewhat devalued. He is above skyfathers but below abstracts. Up against Odin and Zeus two of the most powerful of the skyfathers Owens future looks bleak

Maestro
If Cosmic beings such as Thanos can hold their own against Odin, why can't molecule man defeat them, didn't genis beat odin? Whatever odin or zeus throw at him he could just rearrange it and throw it back.

GalacticStorm
Not mystical energy. Did u not read all of Kill Alls post? U couldnt hav cos if u did you would hav caught the bit where galactus who would crush owen without debate was stalemated by odin and admits his scientific based powers arent really effective against mystical energies because they defy the realm of science and physics

GalacticStorm
Thanos for a time has held his own against galactus but theres no way he could beat him one on one under his own power. Odin defeated Thanos people on here sometimes misuse the word 'stalemate'. In their battle by the end it was clear who was the superior of the two

Maestro
A bit off topic but did Odin ever battle any celestials?

GalacticStorm
Yeah. He didnt stand a chance. Him and the earths pantheons empowered the destroyer armor with their essences and the destroyer got f**ked up!! I hope you're not gonna try and say well beyonder or MM did this or that to the celestials!! lol. Well beyonder did but that was all retconned. If u read KillAlls post you'll see after the retcon beyonder is running scared from a celestial.

Maestro
Was going to say that a being like galactus could beat Odin quite comfortably as he is on equal with the celestials. I think when Galactus was repelled, it was because he was hungry and trying to eat asgard. And most people know a starved galactus isn't that strong.

Molecule man
Thanos with a cosmic cube became one with the universe and you don't think Owen would defeat Odin and Zeus???

GalacticStorm
Since that happened the cosmic cubes and the cube beings have been RETCONNED!!!!!!! PLEASE GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD!!! LOL. IF U READ THE END THANOS STATES THAT WITH THE COSMIC CUBE HE EXPERIENCED FACETS OF GREAT POWER IN COMPARISON HE TALKS OF THE INFINITY GAUNTLET AND SAYS THAT, THAT HAD MADE HIM OMNIPOTENT BUT THAT WAS ONLY EXTERNAL CONTROL. THE HOTU MADE HIM ONE WITH UNIVERSE. Sorry i couldnt be bothered to turn caps lock off after id started lol. The cubes and the cube beings arent up there. Im sorry i know youre a fan but please just accept this

Molecule man
RETONNED??? So what that Skyfathers still are nothing compared to Owen. I really wonder if you know anything about him or his feats

GalacticStorm
"I really wonder if you know anything about him or his feats"

I really wonder if u can actually read!! Havent i said like 5 times before that all the cube beings feats were written off? For the last time owen is between skyfathers and the abstracts whether u like it or not. Sorry bro take it up with marvel

Wynndar
Just as its been mentioned...last time MM surfaced and turned kosmos back into the Beyonder he proved he had far eclipsed Kubik and the Beyonder...the "shockwaves" of his attacks were causing chaos throughout the timestream and multiverse. Present MM would not even notice Zues or Odin.

Molecule man
That's what I have been trying to tell GS but he/she just won't listen

leonidas
it's not that he won't listen, i don't think, it's just that he believes that in the scheme of things owen (who i think IS more powerful than either individual) is not SO high above them on the food chain that he could easily handle 2 of the most powerful beings in the universe. my thought is that MM probably WOULD beat them both - even with the CC powers whittled down from what they were. he is still enormously powerful. i think odin and zeus are capable of most of the feats owen is, but because he ranks oabove them in the power scale, i think his mastery of such feats would be greater and be enough to get him through this fight - though by NO MEANS unscathed!

GalacticStorm
"it's just that he believes that in the scheme of things owen (who i think IS more powerful than either individual) is not SO high above them on the food chain that he could easily handle 2 of the most powerful beings in the universe"

Thats exactly it. Thank leo for sticking up 4 me. I think all of us are gonna hav 2 agree to disagree here. But i'll go wiv your last comment because its the fairest and most neutral ive read on this thread so far

"he/she just won't listen"

Im a boy!! lol

Molecule man
Hehe so now you agree with me that Owen would beat Odin and Zeus with no problem?

leonidas
<<Hehe so now you agree with me that Owen would beat Odin and Zeus with no problem?>>

er, no.

<<i think his mastery of such feats would be greater and be enough to get him through this fight - though by NO MEANS unscathed!>>

that means he would probably win - but he would have one HELL of a problem doing so!

Molecule man
If he really wanted he would have no problem against them at all he's simply out of their leauge. But it's always a question about his state of mind

GalacticStorm
Next time b4 you post please read and try to understand what points other people have made. Seriously. Follow leos example

Molecule man
so should you

ZephroCarnelian
What?

Galactic's been reading and taking in everything that's been said! lol!

And plus - he's obviously got a sound knowledge of canon - he knows that Cube beings have been retconned and he's taking this into account.

You, MM, don't seem to realise that Marvel now state that - the majority of Cube beings feats in the past are mostly illusion and not actual power! They're not as powerful as they made themselves out to be.

Odin and Zeus are immensely powerful and they've proved it with actual feats - that haven't been retconned. Thor with the Odin-force managed to repel Galactus. You imagine how powerful Odin himself is...?

I believe that - yes, MM is very powerful. Even to create illusions enough to fool the universe, he must be powerful.

But powerful enough to take down two skyfathers with proven power?

Maybe.

Not as easily as you keep saying MM.

Molecule man
Go and read FF 27!!!!!!

GalacticStorm
* sigh. I think theres no hope for u.

Molecule man
just because i think Owen would win over Odin and Zeus???

Like there's hope for you

armandovalles
dude they're is practically no one in the entire marvel universe that can beat both Odin and Zeus at the same time!

GalacticStorm
No. Thats fine if u believe that and then u back it up with proof which supports what you are saying. But because you love MM so much u dont seem to be able too get in2 your head that his and all the other cube beings past feats were retconned and wriiten off so u cant use that as an example as to why he would win here. The retcon also places him in between the skyfathers and the abstract beings and theres no debating that. My point is that the two most powerful skyfathers utilising mystical abilities (which even galactus struggles with and has great difficulty overcoming) would be able to deal with MM. His powers are realworld/scientific based. But your love for MM is just making u refuse to see or even accept that. Even though many others have came in and tried to make u understand you just ignore it and say the same thing, please go and read FF blah blah blah. This is a great example of fanboyism. Im sorry but it really is.

Beyonder
Originally posted by armandovalles
dude they're is practically no one in the entire marvel universe that can beat both Odin and Zeus at the same time!

Molecule Man - not easily though
Galactus
Shuma Gorath
Demogorge
Exitar
Arishem
Agamotto
Chaos
Order

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. Thats fine if u believe that and then u back it up with proof which supports what you are saying. But because you love MM so much u dont seem to be able too get in2 your head that his and all the other cube beings past feats were retconned and wriiten off so u cant use that as an example as to why he would win here. The retcon also places him in between the skyfathers and the abstract beings and theres no debating that. My point is that the two most powerful skyfathers utilising mystical abilities (which even galactus struggles with and has great difficulty overcoming) would be able to deal with MM. His powers are realworld/scientific based. But your love for MM is just making u refuse to see or even accept that. Even though many others have came in and tried to make u understand you just ignore it and say the same thing, please go and read FF blah blah blah. This is a great example of fanboyism. Im sorry but it really is.

? Galactus stalemated Agamotto in it's own magical realm. Thor beating Galactus is shit, especially considering Tyrant stomped on herald level guys including Beta Ray Bill. Thor's also that same guy who's had trouble with Juggernaut and Hulk.

Molecule man
If you have read FF 27 then u would know why i think Owen would have no problem with Odin and Zeus

GalacticStorm
Phoenix should be added!! lol Im really not convinced about MM. Not against two of the most powerful skyfathers. If they didnt have such powerful mystical abilities and several millenia of combat experience then yeah. But do do so i really dont think he can. Not against two of them going all out. Hes not high enough above them in the hierarchy for him to dispatch them both. Plus his powers arent effective against mystical abilities. For chrsist sake galactus complained he couldnt really counter such abilities

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix should be added!! lol Im really not convinced about MM. Not against two of the most powerful skyfathers. If they didnt have such powerful mystical abilities and several millenia of combat experience then yeah. But do do so i really dont think he can. Not against two of them going all out. Hes not high enough above them in the hierarchy for him to dispatch them both. Plus his powers arent effective against mystical abilities. For chrsist sake galactus complained he couldnt really counter such abilities

It'd be like Namor and Wonder Man against Black Bolt; good fight and all but in the end they'd still lose.

GalacticStorm
No it would be far from that. The difference being Odin and zeus are several millenia old and have thousands of years combat experience. Namor and Wonderman do not. Another difference being that odin and zeus wield abilties that MM's conventional abilities arent very effective against therefore negating his advantage in power. Again Namor and Wonderman DO NOT.

Molecule man
Why can't you just accept that MM is way too powerful than Odin and Zeus together. It might be close coz MM is kinda ineffective some times but they would be lose!

leonidas
<<It'd be like Namor and Wonder Man against Black Bolt; good fight and all but in the end they'd still lose.>>

sounds like a match that should be posted . . . and while i'm not sure i agree with the above, i do agree with the sentiment - MM in a close - and obviously very debatable - one.

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No it would be far from that. The difference being Odin and zeus are several millenia old and have thousands of years combat experience. Namor and Wonderman do not. Another difference being that odin and zeus wield abilties that MM's conventional abilities arent very effective against therefore negating his advantage in power. Again Namor and Wonderman DO NOT.

Power is power. Galactus was only confused about Agamotto and his realm; however, they still stalemated in their fight. Cosmic or mystical, power is power. Anything a mystical artifact can do, cosmic cubes can do as well. Power is power. When you get down to it, they both can do almost the same thing. However, Molecule Man is just more powerful than either. Thanos' lacked the power and versatility against Odin, it wasn't because mystics are more powerful than cosmic; Thanos outright pointed this out.

And experience isn't everything, if they're more powerful than you, than that's that.

GalacticStorm
"Why can't you just accept that MM is way too powerful than Odin and Zeus together"

For the simple reason that their power and proficiency in using the mystical arts negates MM's power advantage. Get that into your head. He's clearly below the abstract beings and he's above a single skyfather. Put two of the most powerful skyfathers 2gether and u hav a MM man whupping machine.

GalacticStorm
Power is power i agree with you. But mystical power is unconventional and it defies real world physics. Galactus is more powerful than Agamotto but due to his opponents usage of mystical energies his power advantage was negated. With enough power then you could overcome this disadvantage for sure. But owen has clearly been positioned between the likes of odin and zeus and the abstracts. Hes not so high above them that collectively they couldnt take him down. Especially when using mystical means which somewhat negate owens power advantage

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Power is power i agree with you. But mystical power is unconventional and it defies real world physics. Galactus is more powerful than Agamotto but due to his opponents usage of mystical energies his power advantage was negated

? Where did you get the idea that Galactus is far more powerful than Agamotto? Agamotto rules over an entire cosmos like his other allies Oshtur and Hoggoth. He didn't even care for Eternity's state; his realm is not connected with the regular universe that is Eternity. He even told Galactus off, refering to Galactus as a little man onced named Galan.

And that comic never stated Galactus as anymore powerful than Agamotto nor did it say anything about Agamotto stalemating Galactus due to mystic powers being advantages over cosmic.

Strange only mentioned that Galactus was overestimating his might, and fooled by Agamotto's worm appearance. He never said anything regard mystical over cosmic.

GalacticStorm
The fact that Galactus could go into Agamottos realm and force a stalemate suggests to most people that in a neutral realm agamotto would get his wormy ass owned. If he has his own realm not connected with eternitys then why would he care for his status. It is well known that conventional powers arent anywhere near as effective against mystical powers as they are against other standard enrgies. Galactus has said he despises mystical energies because he isnt as effective against them. For evidence check out his fight with the guardians of the galaxy when their feline sorcerer unleashes the crimson bands of cytorrak on him.

GalacticStorm
Galactus is restrained and in great difficulty. He doesnt get out of the bother himself. One of the elders of the u appears who is the sorcerers mentor andorders him to stop the spell because it is so powerful and dangerous in the wrong hands

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact that Galactus could go into Agamottos realm and force a stalemate suggests to most people that in a neutral realm agamotto would get his wormy ass owned.

So much for mystics have an advantage over cosmics.



What status are you refering to? He didn't care about the regular universe; that's why he didn't want to allow Galactus and Strange to use his eye of Agamotto to find the Magus.



?That proves what? The Crimson Bands Of Cyttorak are mystical containment from Cyttorak who also has it's own cosmos. Galactus getting binded by the band only proves that the bands are that strong. How many people have actually broken that bands, while to sorccerer his full concentration on the spell?

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