Jedi Master Yoda vs. ROTS Anakin

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Darth Mantis
You can use the "chosen one" story. Yoda in his prime.

jedimaster2000
ROTS Anakin is more powerful than Yoda, but he was also very emotionally unstable. Yoda wasn't as powerful but he had much more control over himself. Quite a few lightsaber duels have proved that level-headedness is more important than power. So I would probably say Yoda.

Kun-ni Habeo
yoda.if anakin could control himself then he wins

jedimaster2000
^^agreed

Darth_Janus
Yoda was whuppin' ass when Anakin's mommy was in diapers. Strong with the Force, young Skywalker is. But stronger than I? I thinka not... hm hm hm hmmm... Yes.

Darth_Nefarus
Anakin would waste Yoda. Even in his prime he would be no match for Anakin's fury. Like I said before Obi-Wan only was due to his personal knowledge of Anakin. Yoda wouldn't have that wisdom, or the power to defeat Anakin.

Darth_Glentract
"Like I said before Obi-Wan only was due to his personal knowledge of Anakin." That is crap. Yoda would be watching Anakin very closely and he was his great-great-great-great master. He taught Dooku, who taught Qui-gon, who taught Obi-wan, who taught Anakin. To put it shortly, Yoda wins.

Darth_Janus
I know how you're wrong, Glentract. You forgot one big point.

Yoda isn't the Chosen one. Somehow, that seems to make all the difference in the world.

Darth Mantis
"chosen one"- Bring a balance to the force. They thought it would bring a balance to the lightside, but their was more light than dark. So he made it balanced by joining the darkside.

Well that's my theory anyway..

Darth_Glentract
it also never says that the chosen one needs to be the ultimate fighter.

Darth_Janus
I agree.

Wanderer259
The Prophecy - The one that will bring balance to the Force.

Let's look at this for a moment.

A lot of people seem to think that this means Anakin was conceived of the Force to bring Emperor Palpatine, the Dark Side 'cloud', down, and in a very bad way. But is this really what you would call bringing balance? Last I checked, balance meant an equal representation of all things... or in this case, none.

We've got a bunch of Jedi, Light Side addicts who've ruled over Force usage for a very long time. We've got a tops of three Dark Side users, all incredibly strong. What happens? Anakin shows up. Anakin aids in the destruction of the entire Jedi order, and though his genocide isn't complete, Obi-Wan and Yoda do eventually die. After RotJ, Anakin kills the Emperor and then dies of wounds he sustained in doing so. What do we have left? Luke Skywalker as the sole true Force-user in the galaxy and I wouldn't place him as entirely Light Side; he fell too easily into the Dark Side in his fight with Vader and I could swear I remember him force-choking someone at least once). So, with one Force-user who is pretty much mostly neutral, we've achieved The Balance.

Anakin was indeed the bringer of the balance, but it wasn't through sheer power, skill, or knowledge. Just participation and 'destiny'.

So after that, Anakin might, MIGHT be potentially stronger, but he's also far from exhibited the amount of control and skill Yoda has. In the end, I'd say it'd be circumstantial.

Darth_Janus
Many people have taken lots of liberty with the prophecy and what it entails. The prophecy has two sides...

The Jedi Order believed in a being that would bring balance to the Force. What balance is is never clearly explained.

The Sith have their own version. The sith'ari. A supposively perfect being who brings about balance to the Force somehow, while destroying the existing Sith order and installing a regime of terror.

At least, that's what I remember reading somewhere. In any case, balance in the Force shouldn't mean the destruction of the Sith and the Jedi order. The Jedi Order itself was not corrupt or decadent. It was not a sick institution in the traditional sense, though it did, perhaps, need a revision of sorts. The upbringing of Anakin and how he melded with the Order is a clear example of that. As for the Sith, they existed rather pacefully with the galaxy for a millenium or more, didn't they? Was there imbalance there?

Meh. I wish the whole thing was well thought out in the first place. I expect a rather hasty explanation in Episode III. I'd die of shock of GL suddenly turned around and had a well thought out explanation for the prophecy and explained it to a tee.

Wanderer259
"...balance in the Force shouldn't mean the destruction of the Sith and the Jedi order. The Jedi Order itself was not corrupt or decadent. It was not a sick institution in the traditional sense, though it did, perhaps, need a revision of sorts. The upbringing of Anakin and how he melded with the Order is a clear example of that. As for the Sith, they existed rather pacefully with the galaxy for a millenium or more, didn't they? Was there imbalance there?"

On the Jedi Order, just because it wasn't corrupt doesn't mean it didn't contribute to the Force's supposed imbalance. They were one side of an extreme, the Light Side, and their numbers dwarfed the amount of Dark Siders at the time of the movies. On the Sith, no one said the Force was imbalanced 'back in the day'. If the prophecy has been around since the beginning, since the first Force user, then hasn't the Force been imbalanced this whole time and therefore came that way naturally?

My whole theory is based on the idea that the imbalance lies within the use of the Light and Dark halves of the Force, but like you said, what exactly is imbalanced about the Force is not only never clearly explained, it's never explained at all. We're only told that the Force is imbalanced and that Anakin is here to regain that balance; we're told to accept this and be done with it. But we're never told what the hell this means.

Darth_Janus
True enough. Wish it was more straightforward...

Darth_Nefarus
Lucas has said that the Sith cause the imbalance, I don't see how that isn't straight forward.

Darth_Janus
Well, the Sith existed for millenia before Sidious and Anakin, and did much darker deeds, murdering billions and corrupting large amounts of Jedi.

I fail to see how all of a sudden Sidious and his apprentice of the moment finally swing the pendulum all the way out of alignment.

Fishy
It sounds nicer to make a movie about a chosen one then just some special guy... GL should have thought about what he was doing to us people that don't think being the chosen one makes you win everything..

Besides while we're on the subject of bashing the chosen one, who says he is the only ever? Do you know how many chosen one's religions have had? Mythology's have? Anakin might be the chosen one, but who's to say he is the only one...

Seirously..

Anyways Yoda would win this, he has more experience, better training, better command of the force and he is a lot calmer. Anakin would go insane while fighting Yoda and eventually lose

Vanquish
Just because Anakin is the Chosen one, doesn't mean he is the strongest, I wish people would get off that line of thinking. It ONLY means that he is the one in the end that defeats the Sith. It is more of a victory by association, because he is the only one that could have been standing next to Palpy to do the job, because if it was any other jedi, even a much more powerful one, Palpy would have been fighting back. The only reason Vader kills Palpy is because he isn't expecting it. That is HARDLY a display of power or strength imo.

Anyway, Yoda would destroy Anakin or Vader at any time during any of the movies. At no time was Anakin ever as strong as Yoda.

jackstain
Yoda.

Darth_Glentract
Yoda wins.

Darth Mantis
Originally posted by Vanquish
Just because Anakin is the Chosen one, doesn't mean he is the strongest, I wish people would get off that line of thinking. It ONLY means that he is the one in the end that defeats the Sith. It is more of a victory by association, because he is the only one that could have been standing next to Palpy to do the job, because if it was any other jedi, even a much more powerful one, Palpy would have been fighting back. The only reason Vader kills Palpy is because he isn't expecting it. That is HARDLY a display of power or strength imo.

Anyway, Yoda would destroy Anakin or Vader at any time during any of the movies. At no time was Anakin ever as strong as Yoda. My thoughts exactly...

Darth_Glentract
Yoda has several hundred years of experince

Darth_Nefarus
Gee, that's funny. But GL and RM have both said Anakin is the best, the most powerful, of ALL time.
Anakin was never as well groomed as Yoda, but all throughout Revenge of the Sith he was more powerful.

Janus, it's been a while since my comp worked so let's backtrack. You said that the Sith existed for a long time before Sidious and Vader. You are right, the Sith order is quite old. However, once Sidious learned the powers of Darth Plagueis, he now had the ability to use midichlorians to extend his life. This power alone, would definately corrupt the natural order of the force, and increase Sidious' power significantly. On top of that, he can cloud the entire light side of the force. I mean, we've all seen him BS Jedi Masters like Yoda and Mace, so that obviously takes some power right?

Sidious even knows Anakin is more powerful than him, but luckily for him, Anakin's achilles heel steps in and inadvertantly throws a leash around his neck.

Yoda does have centuries on Anakin, and that I can't argue. But he doesn't know Anakin that well, and if he couldn't beat Sidious, no way could he defeat Anakin.
Yoda is OWNED

Fishy
No he isn't..

Anakin may be more powerful, but Yoda is smarter and more skilled. You can be the strongest person in the world and still lose from somebody with a gun if he knows how to fight. Strength only means so much. If you are strong but not skilled with a blade will you be able to defeat a lightsaber master? Of course not. Well Anakin was skilled but not as skilled as Yoda was.

Yoda wins this

Darth_Nefarus
if yoda can't beat sidious, he couldn't handle anakin

Kun-ni Habeo
rue but ani is inpatient,and sids has looots of exp

Darth_Glentract
i guess none of you have read the ep3 book. Yida says that Obi-wan will never be powerful enough to defeat Palpatine by himself. Obi-wan beat Anakin. Obi-wan beat Anakin, herefor Anakin must be weaker than Sidious. Yoda knew he would have an okay chance against Sidious, maybe 40, 60 so he went to challenge him. This means that he is more powerful than Obi-wan, who was more powerful than Anakin. Raw, unharnessed energy means nothing unless it can be properly controled. Also, before you go claiming that GL said Anakin is the strongest OF ALL TIME, please find some quotes and a proper source. I know it says he had the most force power at that time, unharnessed or not, but I never heard anything about most powerful ever.

Kun-ni Habeo
we all know why ninja beat ani,and yes any (ROTS )is stronger then palpy

Darth_Glentract
you keep making unsuported crap statments that mean nothing.

Kun-ni Habeo
edit:ani (ROTS )
ob1 beat ani cuz he knew him to good and please don't play a smart@$$ if you aren't wink

Darth_Glentract
Yoda and Mace were both watching Anakin very closly so they would know him pretty well. Obi-wan also gave them a lot of information about him. Your just a dumb@$$ because if Anakin was more powerful than Sidious he would not have become his apprentice.

Darth_Nefarus
Yes he would, he became his apprentice to learn how to save Padme fool. I'm sorry btw if you didn't know that.

Yoda and Mace watched Anakin, but they never learned of Anakin in the way Obi-Wan did. They were like father and son and/or brothers. That connection is what makes their battle so thrilling and emotional.

GL has already said in the DVD documentaries that Obi-Wan is not as powerful as Anakin, he has more experience and control of his emotions, and that's why he wins.

Besides, him beating Anakin doesn't mean he's more powerful, he beat Darth Maul, but Maul was far superior in power.

Darth_Janus
You just dug your argument a grave. Yoda is calmer than Anakin. Has mroe experience and control over his emotions like no one else.

Darth_Nefarus
I agree, Yoda has superior control over his emotions, but he is no way near powerful enough to beat Sidious, thus he couldn't defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan does because of the environment they fight in, and I'm assuming when he mentions Anakin's mom.

Darth_Janus
Sidious could beat the living shit out of Anakin if he had wanted, obviously. Anakin was power, but he was unrefined power. Yoda could easily capitalize on his emotional weaknesses.

Darth_Nefarus
Sidious couldn't take Anakin, that's one of the main reasons he tries to turn him. Otherwise he would have tried to get a different apprentice and simply kill Anakin. (even though it would be far from simple) Can't beat them join them type of thing. I mean, he's even afraid during ROTJ because he is terrified of the idea of Anakin returning to the light.

Kun-ni Habeo
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yoda and Mace were both watching Anakin very closly so they would know him pretty well. Obi-wan also gave them a lot of information about him. Your just a dumb@$$ because if Anakin was more powerful than Sidious he would not have become his apprentice.
sidious knew ani is more powerfull and if ob1 didn't gave him that bath ani wuld come after sids and prolly kill him and take the throne
so please shut the **** up Happy Dance

Fishy
Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
Sidious couldn't take Anakin, that's one of the main reasons he tries to turn him. Otherwise he would have tried to get a different apprentice and simply kill Anakin. (even though it would be far from simple) Can't beat them join them type of thing. I mean, he's even afraid during ROTJ because he is terrified of the idea of Anakin returning to the light.

Tell me something, why the hell would you make somebody your apprentice that is more powerful then you? You make sure he dies if he his more powerful and actually has a chance of beating you.

Also why the hell would you kill somebody that is more powerful then most Jedi just to get a weaker person as your apprentice? I see no real reason for that, unless of course Anakin was stronger then him, but if he was stronger Sidious would have used other people to kill him. He isn't stupid

Darth_Nefarus
Sidious made Anakin his apprentice because the perfect apprentice can do all the dirty work for him. He doesn't want anyone to know he has force powers otherwise people wouldn't take him being Emperor so well.

Sidious figures that if anyone is going to take his throne from him, it can only be someone worthy, like his perfect apprentice. Another Sith Lord. That's how the Sith work, only the strong can rule, and Sidious has accepted this. However, he gets Mech Vader who he can still boss around, and who can still smoke a bunch of fools publicly.

Fishy
Yeah Anakin is a nice bully for him, but he isn't more powerful then Sidious... Otherwise Sidious wouldn't make him his apprentice, he would have killed him long before that and taken another apprentice.

If Anakin was powerful but weaker then Sidious however he would be a perfect apprentice.

Darth_Nefarus
Okay, Anakin, IS more powerful than Sidious. RM and GL have already confirmed this. Sidious chooses him because he knows no one can stand up to Anakin with the darkside. But he wasn't counting on Obi-Wan and his ninja skills.

And Anakin is weaker because he's young, impulsive and blinded by his love. Sidious exploits all of this.

And yes, Sidious would choose someone who was more powerful, or potentially more powerful because part of the Sith belief is the strong must rule. I guess Sidious figures if he's going down, he'd rather it be a Sith than a Jedi.

Fishy
Of course, but he also knows Anakin can't beat him at least not yet because even though Anakin has more potential he isn't more powerful yet.

Thats what i am saying, Sidious could have killed Anakin easily. And he had he couldn't do so with Yoda.

Yoda could kill Anakin as well, not because Anakin is weaker but because he isn't as skilled. He doesn't have a real chance because he lacks experience

Lord Mader
Meh, atleast anakin would have to lose a leg or another arm in the battle since yoda can do the flippy tricks. Yoda can even jump while in the air.

Darth_Nefarus
I think Anakin can as well, just wait

Wanderer259
I think Yoda would win, mostly because he's vastly more experienced than Anakin. I mean, we're talking hundreds of years in difference here. I don't see Anakin dropping Sidious (in an actual fight, mind, no shafts involved) while Yoda was at least able to keep up.

Darth_Nefarus
Well being skilled is usually better than being gifted. But one thing no one is addressing is the fact Yoda is also old. Being old means your body doesn't work as well and Yoda wouldn't be as powerful as he was at around say 300-500 years old.
Anakin, is in his prime, and he had more power than anyone and that's a huge factor in why he would win.

And yes, Obi-Wan beats Anakin, but Obi-Wan is also in his prime as well. I read an article a while back (I'll find the link ASAP) about how Obi-Wan(ROTS) could likely defeat Yoda.

jedimaster2000
Nefarus, I don't think you read the question properly. It's Yoda in his prime vs. ROTS Anakin.

Darth_Glentract
Yoda may have had a more capable body when he was 300 years old, but his knowlege in the force was less and his skills were less. I think that a Jedi is always at their prime regardless of their physical condiction(to a degree). Yoda was at his prime. He would slaughter Anakin

Fishy
Anakin was stronger then Yoda in ROTJ... He would waste Yoda there, primarily because Yoda was as close to dying as you could come without actually dying

Kun-ni Habeo
ROTJ yoda is dead

Fishy
Not when Luke returns to Yoda, Anakin can defeat Yoda then

Kun-ni Habeo
lol
i can defeat yoda then

Sesse
You can't win, Kun. If you strike him down, he shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

Kun-ni Habeo
meh......who gives a ****........
*ignites his purple saber* *slices yoda in half*

Darth_Janus
Yoda is fierce. All those who don't have cortosis weave shin plates will suffer his diminutive wrath!

Kun-ni Habeo
i won't

Vanquish
At no time during Anakin's life is he ever as strong as Yoda, pre or post lava. Being the chosen one doesn't imply power. It ONLY means that he is the one that takes out the Sith lord, nothing more. It DOES NOT mean he is the strongest. Yoda is more experienced, more powerful, and better with a lightsaber. No contest, Yoda b1tch slaps Anakin easy.

BTW: Yoda's fighting style is one that ignores his age or decrepid body. He uses a form that utilizes the force to overcome his obvious bodily short comings. Age has little to do with it. yoda at 800 could destroy Anakin at any age and time.

Darth_Nefarus
When the people who built the star wars universe, and decide how good someone is in battle, I'll stick with what they said.
GL has said Anakin is the best, watch the dvd commentaries man.

Revan Darkstar
I say that Yoda when he is 500 would easily waste Anakin, but even at 800, he would stilll win. He has more experience than anyone in the last 4000 years, has studied the force for over 800 years, and under excellent masters. He was around when some jedi who would have remembered Bane and Kaan and those sith wars were still around. Actually, I have a theory that Yoda himself may have even met Bane. Before you think I'm an idiot, think about it. We know that jedi/sith can live for hundreds of years (Yoda living to over 900 years). So say Bane was 50 on Ruusan, 100 or so years later Yoda comes along, bane would be 150, he could still be living. By the time Yoda becomes a jedi knight, say at the age of 24, Bane would be old, but could still be living at the age of 174. I can find no real proof for this anywhere, but its possible, and personally I think it is plausible. The only evidence I can find is in Dark Rondevouz (if you have other evidence, please tell me), when Yoda mentions that he was tempted greatly by the dark side in his youth and that he faced great trials. I think that meeting Darth Bane in battle would be a great trial, also if Bane tried to convince Yoda to turn dark, that would be great temptation.
Speaking of Dark Rondevouz, Dooku tries to turn Yoda to the dark side, however, he stops trying, not because a fight happens, but because he recieves a force vision of what would happen if Yoda did turn dark, basically it said that the galaxy wouldn't stand a chance, than him (Dooku) and Sidious would fall easily before Yoda. The galaxy could not comprehend the power that a jedi knight of over 800 years could unleash. And that is from Dooku, a person who trained under both Yoda and Sidious, if he says that if Yoda really wanted, he would wipe out Sidious, I believe him.
He also knew force techniques that others can only dream of, watch AotC and his force battle with Dooku again, Dooku shoots lightning at him, Yoda throws it back, and this is then what you need to watch, Dooku facial expressions, he looks about ready to faint when he sees Yoda casually throw the lightning back at him. And he had trained for 10 years under Sidious, you would think that during that time he would have seen Sidious throw lightning back at him if he could, espically during teaching Dooku to throw lightning.

I think that Yoda's clearly superior knowledge and almost equal power, combined with his level-headedness would bring him to a win over Anakin.

ps. I agree with you guys about the chosen one and the prophesy, not thought out and nowhere in it does it say that Anakin is invincible and can beat anyone, even the entire jedi council or Exar Kun and Revan and Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow etc. all combined without even braking a sweat. Foolishness if you ask me.

Darth_Janus
I agree. Nice points,btw. Yoda is more deadly than I had thought.

Kun-ni Habeo
lol
he is

Lord Mader
In my case i don't think anakin is the chosen one he did go evil.

Fishy
The prophecy said nothing about dark or light just about balance. There can be no balance without both dark and light.

IMO Anakin furfilled the prophecy the minute he had gone dark. For a thousand years the Jedi ruled unopposed. They had no one to fight nothing to do. The jedi became a stagnat organisation. Anakin changed that, pherhaps not alone but his life did have a big impact. He was the chosen one by destroying the ilght and then the dark leaving neither. He furfilled the prophecy and made room for a fresh start, without the ancient Jedi or Sith to do anything. New one's new chances for both sides.

Darth_Glentract
That's what I was thinking. How can it be off balance in favor of the Sith if there is so many of them. Atleast until I read the ROTS book.

Vanquish
I also agree. Yoda as a Jedi as we know him, he is the strongest Jedi, certainly of the last 1000 years or so. However, if Yoda was turned to the dark side, he would easily be the strongest Sith ever, and that would be the end of palpy and Dooku in a heartbeat. Siths replace the weaker ones as we know, so definitely Sith Lord Yoda would replace all existing Sith, and would rule unchallenged. Dooku and Palpy together would be nothing for a dark side Yoda.

DenKi
So Say If YODA Did Turn, He Would Die in about 20/30 years Wouldnt he??

Fishy
How do you figure that?

As long as he isn't challanged and surpased he can live until he dies a natural dead

Darth Inanis
Hey!!! How come you think, that Yoda would be stronger if he turned dark side? I think that Vader/Anakin is the living proof, that the light side of the force is always stronger. I know that a lot of you are going to disagree with me on that but I don't care. Anyways let me get back to the topic: I think Yoda would beat RotS Anakin. I mean Yoda is able to survive a fight against Darth Sidious the master of Anakin and that sure means something.

Fishy
Anakin is stronger in the Dark Side then he was at the light.

And the Dark Side allows more a more efficient form of fighting drawing more from the force and more aggressive attacks when you can. While as the light side preaches you not to do things like that, because you can get to used to it and start loving. All to prevent you to fall. Yoda knew force lightning, but he never once in his life would be the first to throw that at somebody even if that could kill his opponent. Its not Jedi like

Darth Inanis
Yes. One could obtain a better fighting form through dark side, but the price in the end is very high.

forumcrew
yoda EASY

Kun-ni Habeo
lol Darth Yoda

Darth_Janus
Yoda pwns.

Kun-ni Habeo
roXXorz

the Darkone
Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
I say that Yoda when he is 500 would easily waste Anakin, but even at 800, he would stilll win. He has more experience than anyone in the last 4000 years, has studied the force for over 800 years, and under excellent masters. He was around when some jedi who would have remembered Bane and Kaan and those sith wars were still around. Actually, I have a theory that Yoda himself may have even met Bane. Before you think I'm an idiot, think about it. We know that jedi/sith can live for hundreds of years (Yoda living to over 900 years). So say Bane was 50 on Ruusan, 100 or so years later Yoda comes along, bane would be 150, he could still be living. By the time Yoda becomes a jedi knight, say at the age of 24, Bane would be old, but could still be living at the age of 174. I can find no real proof for this anywhere, but its possible, and personally I think it is plausible. The only evidence I can find is in Dark Rondevouz (if you have other evidence, please tell me), when Yoda mentions that he was tempted greatly by the dark side in his youth and that he faced great trials. I think that meeting Darth Bane in battle would be a great trial, also if Bane tried to convince Yoda to turn dark, that would be great temptation.
Speaking of Dark Rondevouz, Dooku tries to turn Yoda to the dark side, however, he stops trying, not because a fight happens, but because he recieves a force vision of what would happen if Yoda did turn dark, basically it said that the galaxy wouldn't stand a chance, than him (Dooku) and Sidious would fall easily before Yoda. The galaxy could not comprehend the power that a jedi knight of over 800 years could unleash. And that is from Dooku, a person who trained under both Yoda and Sidious, if he says that if Yoda really wanted, he would wipe out Sidious, I believe him.
He also knew force techniques that others can only dream of, watch AotC and his force battle with Dooku again, Dooku shoots lightning at him, Yoda throws it back, and this is then what you need to watch, Dooku facial expressions, he looks about ready to faint when he sees Yoda casually throw the lightning back at him. And he had trained for 10 years under Sidious, you would think that during that time he would have seen Sidious throw lightning back at him if he could, espically during teaching Dooku to throw lightning.

I think that Yoda's clearly superior knowledge and almost equal power, combined with his level-headedness would bring him to a win over Anakin.

ps. I agree with you guys about the chosen one and the prophesy, not thought out and nowhere in it does it say that Anakin is invincible and can beat anyone, even the entire jedi council or Exar Kun and Revan and Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow etc. all combined without even braking a sweat. Foolishness if you ask me.


This is one of the best arguments for Yoda, if Yoda ever went Dark it would be lights out.

Lord Lucien
Even for a forum-browsing nerd, you know you have too much time on your hands if you're reading 4 year old posts.

Profligate
DUDE. necroisbad.

Darth Subjekt
It ultimately comes down to force mastery, which Yoda most certainly has the edge in. In pure sabers... PURE SABERS...Anakin would be able to hold his own, but other than that, Yoda waxes the floor with his ass.

Lord Lucien
Yeah in purist of pure sabers, Yoda hasn't the advantage of Force-assisted Ataru.

Advent
I have to agree with you there, Subjekt. I may go a step further, and submit that I can most certainly see Anakin winning a saber battle in some cases. He's the best duelist of the PT. At least, sometimes, lol. The way that he fights against Count Dooku is exactly how Dark Lords of the Sith are trained to fight. Dooku didn't stand a chance at all and was killed in about 13 seconds. When we see people like Cin Drallig being tooled with one-hand while Anakin is Force pwning padawans, there can't be any denial that Anakin has already shown the ability to be the best, and beat the best.

He's a master of Djem So, which "is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling"; something often overlooked. According to Dooku himself, Anakin is the best Djem So stylist that he'd ever seen. This is the guy who pretty much hates Anakin and had lobbed his arm off no more than three years prior, who happened to be a lightsaber instructor for several decades, as well as held sparring sessions with the most skilled Jedi proficient in all spectrum of lightsaber combat.

Yoda's Ataru would exhaust him out, as he isn't Superman. It costs him tremendous Force reserves (he may be the most powerful Jedi, but he does have a disadvantage due to his natural weakness) to keep those acrobatics up, whereas Anakin will "keep on coming, tirelessly, ferociously" with nigh infinite stamina. He grows stronger as the fight progresses. This made Count Dooku expend more energy to keep up with him (which would be a further weakness for Yoda). He's physically stronger by far, and has demonstrated speed to keep up with Count Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Asajj Ventress. His skill speaks for itself. So, yes, Anakin can definitely win a saber duel.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Advent
I have to agree with you there, Subjekt. I may go a step further, and submit that I can most certainly see Anakin winning a saber battle in some cases. He's the best duelist of the PT. At least, sometimes, lol. The way that he fights against Count Dooku is exactly how Dark Lords of the Sith are trained to fight. Dooku didn't stand a chance at all and was killed in about 13 seconds. When we see people like Cin Drallig being tooled with one-hand while Anakin is Force pwning padawans, there can't be any denial that Anakin has already shown the ability to be the best, and beat the best.
He's the best duelist of the PT? I would have thought that honor goes to Sidious, Mace, and Yoda, but whatever.


Would exhaust him out? Anakin will just keep on coming? Sorry but Anakin isn't on steroids, nor is he immune from tiring out. I don't see him lasting longer than Sidious did.

Advent
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He's the best duelist of the PT? I would have thought that honor goes to Sidious, Mace, and Yoda, but whatever.

Yes, he can be. How else do you describe someone who: is a master of a form devoted specifically to blade-to-blade combat, demolished Count Dooku in 13 seconds, effortlessly pwned Cin Drallig -- battlemaster of the entire Order with a proficiency in every form -- with one hand while Force choking his padawan with the other, is a physical powerhouse, has more raw power to draw on that anyone in the mythology (certainly in his own era), has demonstrated the speed to compete with top tier duelists, and is regarded as the best Djem So stylist that Dooku has ever seen?

Just because the trio you mentioned are regarded as "teh uber" doesn't mean that Anakin isn't right up there with them. I'm not saying that Anakin is -undisputed- the best duelist in the PT. You're thinking seems to be in set terms of "A>B>C", when there is no such thing when it comes to fighters of this level. The way he fights against Dooku, like I described, is exactly how Sith Lords fight. They tap into their rage to give them tremendous power, but don't let it consume them to the point where they are 'zerkers; instead, focusing it on amplifying themselves, and redirecting their anger onto their opponent. As a Djem So duelist, this matches his form's philosophy of domination "through superior firepower". So, his mindset and the means of his power is in practical perfect alignment with the form he chooses to fight with.



Anakin's Force reserves topple Sidious', they topple Yoda's. His stamina is almost limitless because of this huge pool of power in the Force that he has. He may not have the same extent of mastery as the two aforementioned, but he has shown himself capable of using those reserves to his advantage. And there's the obvious fact that this is a man in his physical prime, who doesn't suffer any of the ill-effects of aging.

Edit: According to both Obi-Wan and Count Dooku, Anakin never gets tired during their fights. He either remains at the same ferocious level or keeps growing stronger. He fought Obi-Wan for almost 10 minutes (or was it 8, 9? *shrug*) without breaking a sweat or, at the very least, without slowing down or indication of slowing down any time soon.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Advent
Yes, he can be. How else do you describe someone who: is a master of a form devoted specifically to blade-to-blade combat, demolished Count Dooku in 13 seconds, effortlessly pwned Cin Drallig -- battlemaster of the entire Order with a proficiency in every form -- with one hand while Force choking his padawan with the other, is a physical powerhouse, has more raw power to draw on that anyone in the mythology (certainly in his own era), has demonstrated the speed to compete with top tier duelists, and is regarded as the best Djem So stylist that Dooku has ever seen?
I don't intend to explain it. GL said that you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious..Not Anakin. And in case you tell me that GL meant in regards to force combat, this dealt specifically with the saber duel. He demolished Dooku after he tapped into his rage and unless I'm mistaken, Dooku isn't Sidious, nor Yoda, nor Mace.


Yes, it actually does. Sidious, Mace, and Yoda are top Tier. As of ROTS Anakin is NOT. I'm not saying he can't contend with those three but his chances of winning are about as good as Obama actually doing something to earn his Nobel Prize.

And no, I'm not thinking A>B>C. I'm thinking top tier, which is those 3. Anakin isn't on their level yet.




Prove this. Potentially, maybe. Not as of ROTS. Prove his stamina is limitless. Prove Yoda or Sidious suffer any of the ill effects of aging you're describing.

Despite Obiwan knowing Anakin inside and out, Anakin lost a lot of credit when he lost that fight with Obiwan, regardless of how it happened.

Advent
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't intend to explain it.

Great.



"GL said" - he said you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious. Was he talking about Jedi or everyone in the PT? I would think Jedi considering he was talking about "The Jedi B-Team". Anakin isn't a Jedi. In title, perhaps, for some portion of RotS. But in nature, he's not, and he's a Sith Lord for part of the movie. All-in-all, what Lucas said doesn't mean much since there's no indication he was referring to a pure saber duel. Do you realize how stupid that sounds for you to suggest he was? Lucas is not making decisions for KMC versus fights that are ridiculously broke down into sub-sections. He's talking about the Force, he's talking about lightsaber skills, he's talking about experience. Everything.

"This dealt specifically with the saber duel" - Is that so? There was never a pure saber duel between Sidious and Yoda or Mace, so prove up. I already know that you can't prove up, so your point doesn't hold any water.

"He demolished Dooku after he tapped into his rage" - And? If I'm not mistaken, I said this exact same thing. This is the very reason for him being capable of defeating pretty much anyone in the PT. When he taps into that rage, he controls it. This is how Count Dooku fights. This is how Darth Sidious fights. This is how OT Vader fights. Nothing wrong there.

"Dooku isn't Sidious, nor Yoda, nor Mace" - And neither they, him. What are you getting at, by the way? Are you suggesting that Dooku isn't on their level? He's the ultimate master of the ultimate refinement of blade-to-blade combat, stated to be on level with Windu, and competed with Yoda. Dooku beats Sora Bulq, legendary Vaapad master, who's skill is considered to be among the greatest, like a red-headed stepchild. He's damn good. What's most impressive that Makashi users rigorously train against having their opponent disarm them or take their blade. Anakin did just that with in 13 seconds. Why didn't Yoda do that if he's so much better than Anakin and Dooku sucks so bad?



But he is in terms of saber dueling. Dooku is, Anakin beat him. Drallig is regarded as top tier within the Order, Anakin tooled him. Anakin has proved that he's a top tier duelist. It isn't just words or hyperbole written down in some obscure EU source.



Now if Obama does something to earn his Nobel Prize, you have to admit that Anakin can win against Yoda. stick out tongue



"Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."

There's more and more. His battle against Obi-Wan indicates that his stamina is amazing. He battles the master of Soresu through heat and lava for some 10 minutes without tiring. At all. No indication that he would be stopping. At all. As a young man, his natural stamina is at his peak. We know that he has a huge pool of Force power to draw on; his raw power does surpass everyone in the era. Since his Force reserves are nigh limitless, his stamina would be as well.

"Prove Yoda or Sidious suffer any of the ill-effects of aging" - ROFLMAO, Beefy! Yoda hobbles around on a cane and is seen using a hovercraft to haul his ass around. Unless you want to write him off as lazy, just watch him at any point where he's not in battle. Sidious is a human. Sidious is almost ready to apply for senior citizenship (he's around 60 years old). Sidious in his 20's or even 40's was more in-shape than Sidious in his 60's, who had sat on his ass for 13 years. This can't be denied. Ta-da! I've proved that Sidious suffers from the ill-effects are aging.



"Regardless of how it happened" - Wow. How it happened is what determines how much credit is lost. To dismiss that would be a terribly illogical. Let's start with the fact that Anakin wasn't fighting like he does against Dooku. He ends up reverting back to the mindless berserker state that I mentioned earlier. That's number one. Number two, his psychological state was severely f'ed up. He was crazed. He choked his wife, the very reason he turned to the dark side, slaughtered children, and his Jedi brethren. He is shown crying at one point. The mental state is the most important aspect of battle. Bar none.

Number three, very important, the fight didn't even stay on even ground. They were fighting on the terrain through means of platform balancing, tight-rope swinging, and lava skating. Come on. With no terrain to manipulate, Obi-Wan would have likely lost. Number four, Obi-Wan was a damn good swordsman. Number five, Soresu is defensive, which would prolong a fight against an offensive form or any form; that leaves more room for mistake to capitalize on. Ataru isn't like that, neither is Makashi or anything other form.

Advent
And let's not forget that Anakin is a master of a form that devotes itself to lightsaber dueling, much like Makashi.

Originally posted by Advent
I've proved that Sidious suffers from the ill-effects are aging.

And the point that was being made here is not that Yoda is a weakling or tires out after doing a back-flip, but that Anakin would most certainly outlast him being younger and more physically fit by light years with a reserve of Force power to draw on that's described as "tremendous" even by Dooku's standards.

And Sidious wouldn't get tired, actually. He does have UNLIMITED POWAH! afterall, and fuels himself the same way Anakin does with a reserve of the Force that's huge and a mastery over it that surpasses Anakin's. But he is old. That part is still true, though irrelevant.

Slash_KMC
Damn you woman, that's what I was saying in this thread, http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=516144&pagenumber=10 where I was trying to tell other individuals how Anakin is among the top tier saber duelists.

I wouldn't put Anakin above Yoda though. Isn't Yoda the best saber duelist in the movies?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Advent
"GL said" - he said you have to be Mace or Yoda to contend with Sidious. Was he talking about Jedi or everyone in the PT? I would think Jedi considering he was talking about "The Jedi B-Team". Anakin isn't a Jedi. In title, perhaps, for some portion of RotS. But in nature, he's not, and he's a Sith Lord for part of the movie. All-in-all, what Lucas said doesn't mean much since there's no indication he was referring to a pure saber duel. Do you realize how stupid that sounds for you to suggest he was? Lucas is not making decisions for KMC versus fights that are ridiculously broke down into sub-sections. He's talking about the Force, he's talking about lightsaber skills, he's talking about experience. Everything.
This is just weak Advent. You love to play semantics, I don't know why. He said you have to be either Mace or Yoda to contend with Palpatine, that's all. I don't even know why you're arguing "nature", seeing as how Anakin is a jedi until the end of the movie. I haven't read the rest of the argument but this is extremely weak. And it's unlikely he was talking about anything other than lightsaber combat, because his response was regarding the lightsaber duel between Palpatine and the "B" team.


Sidious never fought Mace in a pure lightsaber duel? What would you call it then? Part of Yoda and Sidious' match wasn't a saber duel? what do you call it then?


No, you're reaching. Because he was able to demolish dooku, you're assuming he can do it to ANYBODY, especially individuals more powerful than Dooku.


I'm suggesting Dooku can't defeat Yoda in anything, and can't contend against Mace's Vaapad.

Also, show me where Yoda was attempting to kill Dooku.




Ah yes, not the source is obscure. Gotcha. Go ahead and define "top tier" then. He may be within reach of Yoda, Palpatine and Mace but there's nothing suggesting he's in the same league, or on the same level as either of them.




I wouldn't hold your breath if I was you.




No no, THIS is what you said

Yoda and Sidious' age become irrelevant when using the force. Prove that Anakin can TAP into his near limitless reserves. There's nothing suggesting he can just tire out superior opponents, rather than succumbing to their blades.




Except this is a weak justification. He fully intended to kill Obiwan, hell according to the fight scenes he fought better than he did against Dooku. You want to use his fight against Dooku to claim his superiority, I can use his fight against Obiwan to claim that he's not there..yet


Likely doesn't cut it Advent. He was unable to get any kind of strike in when they WERE on even ground.

Advent
I dunno'. It's not like we see Yoda and Sidious or any characters doing a best out of ten brawl. We don't see how Anakin would stand up to Yoda either. But, we do know that he crushed Count Dooku in 13 seconds, which alone speaks for his skills.

Like Dooku says, Anakin is "half-Sith and he doesn't even know it", he mirrors the Sith way of fighting by not holding himself back. The dark side is more powerful. That's fact established by George Lucas. By controlling his rage, but still unleashing it, it allows him to make use of more use of his power. That power, as we know, is "tremendous". So, it'd be a stark contrast from someone like Clone Wars Anakin, who did fair well against Dooku, almost blow-for-blow with a blade -- he'd be much stronger (and this was demonstrated).

His lightsaber is described as his toy when he fights with emotions a la Sith Lords. A state that he would be fighting in ever since he came to a realization in RotS about how to use his bottled up emotions; he realized it was okay to use the full extent of his powers "for the greater good".

Unfortunately, killing younglings, and destroying his Jedi brethren took an emotional toll on him at Mustafar, and obviously disrupted that "clarity" he had previously. Notice how we see a close-up of Anakin (at that point, Vader) crying? Well, when he was fighting against Count Dooku, he thought that power and skill was being used for good; for the Jedi. After Operation Knightfall, he clearly realizes that he's become a monster and loses his mind. He was traumatically scarred even before Obi-Wan had strewn his limbs across the banks of Mustafar.

He's not a killer, like Dexter (*poke Nephthys*). But he became one, and couldn't deal with it after he did it (and kept on doing it). Hell, George Lucas even said that as OT Darth Vader, there was always a bit of light side in him. This is the guy breaking necks and Force choking his own men. Clearly, as Anakin, he ends up struggling with what he did at Mustafar, then going into a mindless 'zerker-like death frenzy; throwing him off-balance against Kenobi, for among other reasons.

I always view RotS Anakin as like against Dooku or Drallig, since that's his prime without the plot catching up to him, really.

Anyways, I'm not saying that Anakin is above Yoda either; only that he could compete with him and could likely take him in some situations.

Nephthys
Whoooooooo! Dexter! usaflag tank



(I swear, if there was a man I'd consider having, y'know, with, its him) wheelchair

Slash_KMC
It's not because Mace and Yoda are the only ones who can beat Palpatine, that those 3 are the top three duelists. Dooku is definitely not a tier below them: On Vjun, "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground." I'm sure everyone understands the word 'equal'.

And this Dooku who was equal to Mace Windu, got tooled by Anakin.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It's not because Mace and Yoda are the only ones who can beat Palpatine, that those 3 are the top three duelists. Dooku is definitely not a tier below them: On Vjun, "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground." I'm sure everyone understands the word 'equal'.

And this Dooku who was equal to Mace Windu, got tooled by Anakin.
Who couldn't defeat Obiwan. The A>B>C argument doesn't work..

Not to mention, Mace's vaapad should be more than enough to give him a victory.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Who couldn't defeat Obiwan. The A>B>C argument doesn't work..

Not to mention, Mace's vaapad should be more than enough to give him a victory.

I'm not even using an ABC argument... Advent already explained how different the duel with Obi-Wan was compared to the one with Dooku. If we are talking about Anakin's peak in RotS, we are talking about his state when stomping Dooku.

Mace's Vaapad is part of him, like Dooku's Makashi is part of him. The quote is clearly referring to saber combat: "But here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light." Which makes Mace and Dooku equals in lightsaber combat, and Dooku even better on a Dark Side boosted planet.

Advent
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is just weak Advent. You love to play semantics, I don't know why. He said you have to be either Mace or Yoda to contend with Palpatine, that's all. I don't even know why you're arguing "nature", seeing as how Anakin is a jedi until the end of the movie. I haven't read the rest of the argument but this is extremely weak. And it's unlikely he was talking about anything other than lightsaber combat, because his response was regarding the lightsaber duel between Palpatine and the "B" team.

Can I point out one, blatantly false thing (among many others) in this attempt to play George Lucas?



A Jedi holds themselves back. A Jedi doesn't use his emotions. A Jedi doesn't kill an unarmed prisoner. A Jedi doesn't slaughter Jedi. A Jedi doesn't kill children (Chuck Norris does). A Jedi doesn't kneel before a Sith Lord. A Jedi reports a Sith Lord. A Jedi adheres to the Jedi way.

As I said, Anakin being called a "Jedi" in nothing more than a title. And he's Darth Vader for the better half of the movie, and fights like Darth Vader in the very beginning of the movie.



Uh, what do you call Force lightning with Sidious still being alive and all? Their duel was a duel to the death. It wasn't over because Sidious got disarmed. According to the novel, the Force was even used, IIRC.

In Yoda vs. Sidious, the Force is used from the very beginning. Watch it, it isn't hard to miss. So, there's no proof that Lucas was talking about a "pure saber duel", which just doesn't make sense.



You repeat this a lot; it never turns out to be true. Reaching would be if I had to resort to "you're reaching" to combat your points. It isn't reaching to say that someone who has demonstrated the ability to beat the best (pwned, rather), can hang with the best.



1. I never said that he could do that to "anybody"; certainly not based on one thing. So, that's just framing my point extremely poorly. It's a feat that --when combined with numerous other displays and general logic derived from those displays-- supports my point about him capable of competing with Yoda.

2. You're not doing anything other than denying rather than discussing.

3. Dooku is hella' powerful. It's said that "aside from Yoda, perhaps only Mace Windu would be his equal on neutral ground", and he's bested Windu before. He was a heralded lightsaber instructor for decades, with proficiency in basically all the forms, and a mastery of Makashi (stressing "the ultimate refinement of blade-to-blade combat"wink. His experience expands to eighty years of both light side and dark side study. His dueling prowess is unquestionable, which is why he's considered one of the greatest ever.



You're suggesting it, then good luck proving it. I'm not arguing either way, but I'd submit that saying Dooku isn't on Mace's level is absolutely stupid.



Anakin didn't have to kill Dooku. He disarmed him...so, what's your point again?



Besides what I just provided, right? "Not the source is obscure"? What is that supposed to mean? I was saying that Anakin's skills aren't just written down in a novel or some comic book. We see them demonstrated against an array of opponents and they are written down. Feats demonstrate skills, at least according to Webster's.



Well, that's why blind faith is so fun.



"No, no, THIS is what you said" - as if what I was saying contradicting what I said. Um, what I DID say was:

Originally posted by Advent
And there's the obvious fact that this is a man in his physical prime, who doesn't suffer any of the ill-effects of aging.

Anakin in his physical prime. That has nothing to do with the Force. I'm talking about naturally. The point that flew over your head was that Yoda expends much more energy to keep up his acrobatics than Anakin spends doing his thing. And, you'd like me to prove that Anakin can tap into his limitless reserves (which you admit; good going)? The RotS novelization is the proof. Everything Dooku knew from his Force was described as a "joke". Dooku sees it firsthand. Described as:

"A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

His firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here."

That's proof that Anakin can use his tap into his reserves, because there can be nothing else that makes Count Dooku's death so final. Anakin isn't holding himself back, this is repeatedly stated. He is using the full extent of his available power, yet never tiring. Your evidence of the opposite would be something to the effect of he hasn't reached his full potential. I agree that he hasn't, but suggesting that he can't draw on that raw power to sustain himself doesn't make any sense.



No, you can't. And it's total BS for you to just state things that aren't true. The fights were not the same whatsoever. The mental states were not the same. One fight did not play out on even ground (the loss), the other did (the win). I've provided a detailed argument for this. Rather than address that, you'd rather go with making unsupported claims.



Did you miss the choke hold? Did you miss the boot to the chest? Did you miss the boot to the face? According to the novelization, Anakin slams Kenobi into a wall with the Force at one point during the cut-away. So, "any kind of strike"? I just counted a handful of melee strikes, a dragon sleeper, and a Force push that show that to be blatantly false. And still, you haven't addressed the actual argument.

Gideon
He doesn't need luck. All one needs to conclude Yoda's blatant superiority over Dooku is comprehension of basic source material. I've proven countless times that Yoda's goal in Attack of the Clones was to capture -- not kill -- the Count. "Captured, Dooku must be, before more systems he rallies to his cause!"

In their Force contest, he only once attempts an offensive maneuver against Dooku, which oddly prompts the Count to shift to lightsaber combat. Likewise, Yoda also allows Dooku to escape, using the excuse to save Skywalker and Kenobi, despite the fact that he later professes in the Revenge of the Sith novelization that the right thing to do would be to sacrifice any Jedi even if it would only bring the war a day closer to culmination.

Dark Rendezvous further illustrates Yoda's considerable superiority: despite the fact that he has reservations about killing his former Padawan and that Dooku is the beneficiary of a world steeped in the dark side of the Force, imbuing his skills, not to mention the fact that Dooku initiated the fight by hurling a woman out of a window, forcing Yoda to divert his attention to rescuing her, Yoda still forces Dooku into a retreat.

Dooku is one of the very best, but had Yoda gone after Dooku the way he went after Sidious? All evidence points to the conclusion that it would end whenever Yoda wanted it to.

Not to mention Dooku's own regard and deep fear for Darth Sidious seems to suggest that both Sidious and Yoda enjoy a substantial advantage over the Count; in the end, Advent, Yoda and Sidious are better and more powerful and not by a small degree.



I'm not sure he said that. Dark Rendezvous makes it clear that the two are pretty much equal. But given Mace's shatterpoint charism and the nature of Vaapad against dark siders, yes, I'd say Mace would win a lightsaber fight.

Red Nemesis
Where did the two actually meet? I was under the impression that they fought at some point? Maybe there was a walker involved?

Advent
Originally posted by Gideon
He doesn't need luck. All one needs to conclude Yoda's blatant superiority over Dooku is comprehension of basic source material.



I was completely blazed when I wrote those posts, so just stop what you saying b/c nobody really cares. I was referring to Dooku and Mace.



However, I do feel there's a difference between how Mace fights dark siders and how he would fight against a non-dark sider. Vaapad would naturally give him a leg up against the former, but his abilities may prove less effective against the latter; like say, someone like Qui-Gon Jinn. In that respect, it'd be more difficult to compare the two when talking about (personal) respective skill.

Anyways, I was not discussing who's better; I tried to outline that by saying "not arguing either way". Only if they are competition for each other or have comparable prowess, which they are, and they do.

Dr McBeefington
rofl..

Advent
So, I'm wondering, how long you're going to sit back and leave your claims completely naked. The lone "rofl" seems to be that ol' awkward post-syndrome acting up again; damnit, and we worked so hard in therapy.

Nephthys
In regard to the match I'm entirely divided on the subject. On the one hand, in RODV Vader bemoans his sorry state of affairs to Sidious in bout of depression. Sidious then points out how much worse it could have been for him if his opponant had been Yoda, not Obi-Wan, which Vader accepts. This shows Vaders willing acceptance that Yoda> him. Though Vader is spiritually low at that point...

On the other hand, I agree with Advents idea about lightsaber combat. Y'see, we know that both Yoda and Anakin are above Dooku, but when Anakin defeats him it literally describes his victory to be overwhelming. Dookus skills are a joke to him. He can end the fight any time he wants, and does, simply by deciding that he wants to. Yoda on the other hand admits that he struggles with Dooku. He says that one 2 minute fight with him is enough training he needs for the entire war. Yoda's never in the position to end a fight with Dooku at any point he wants, like Anakin was, capture or kill.

In simplyfied terms Yoda>>Dooku and Anakin>>>Dooku.

Don't get me wrong I still think Yoda would win, but the fight would be much closer than some people give Anakin credit for. Though I have no idea how close it would/could be.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Advent
So, I'm wondering, how long you're going to sit back and leave your claims completely naked. The lone "rofl" seems to be that ol' awkward post-syndrome acting up again; damnit, and we worked so hard in therapy.

Rofl.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Advent
So, I'm wondering, how long you're going to sit back and leave your claims completely naked. The lone "rofl" seems to be that ol' awkward post-syndrome acting up again; damnit, and we worked so hard in therapy.

Gideon definitely summed up part of it but I'll get to the other part when I'm good and ready. I don't remember the therapist lecturing me on procrastination.

Darth Subjekt
The entire point about Dooku vs. Yoda, is that you don't have to try to kill someone in order to disarm them. Anakin pwned Dooku in, what'd Advent say, 13 seconds? Yoda didn't disarm him at all. I think that's where she was going with it. And Anakin didn't have murder on the brain from the jump. He was goaded into it after Dooku knelt helpless before. It speaks for Anakin's skill level in pure saberwork comparatively to other Jedi, against the same opponent.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Gideon definitely summed up part of it but I'll get to the other part when I'm good and ready. I don't remember the therapist lecturing me on procrastination.

Gideon was nitpicking on something she said, but she wasn't talking about Yoda and Dooku, she was talking about Mace and Dooku. So Gideon said that Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, which doesn't say much about Yoda vs Anakin, because like said before, so was Anakin when he disarmed Dooku.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Gideon was nitpicking on something she said, but she wasn't talking about Yoda and Dooku, she was talking about Mace and Dooku. So Gideon said that Yoda is more powerful than Dooku, which doesn't say much about Yoda vs Anakin, because like said before, so was Anakin when he disarmed Dooku.

Gideon's point was "Anakin beat Dooku, so what?" He's right. Yoda could have done the same had he wanted to.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Gideon's point was "Anakin beat Dooku, so what?" He's right. Yoda could have done the same had he wanted to.

I don't think anyone has said that Anakin automatically beats Yoda, but that Anakin is among the top tier saber duelists of his era and would at least stand a good chance against Yoda. The fact that he beat Dooku (who is a top Force user himself) is a way to prove he was powerful with a lightsaber.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I don't think anyone has said that Anakin automatically beats Yoda, but that Anakin is among the top tier saber duelists of his era and would at least stand a good chance against Yoda. The fact that he beat Dooku (who is a top Force user himself) is a way to prove he was powerful with a lightsaber.

Nobody's suggesting he isn't powerful with a lightsaber, but him being top tier and him having the ability to defeat Yoda are two different things.

Gideon
no.

You implied that Dooku is not necessarily weaker than Yoda; I'm telling you that Yoda is better. And by a lot.



Agreed. But Mace is, even without the nature of Vaapad, a high end master of multiple forms. In strict technical ability, the two of them are easily on par with one another. Dooku thought twice about engaging Windu in a protracted engagement during the Republic's siege of Boz Pity.

Btw, your argument about George's quote regarding being Mace or Yoda to beat Sidious and Anakin being excluded? Lame. Sidious would hand Anakin his ass in a fight, and no, it wouldn't be close.

@ The rest:

Anakin is certainly among the very best, and was able to hold his own against Dooku twice in a lightsaber engagement between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. In terms of Force command? He lags miles behind Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious. He's not going to be defeating Yoda -- who enjoys an advantage due to his diminutive stature and speed (see Sidious's attempts to confine Yoda during their duel).

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Where did the two actually meet? I was under the impression that they fought at some point? Maybe there was a walker involved?

"the two" here refers to Dooku and Mace. There is a specific book that I am thinking of that I do not know.

Help?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"the two" here refers to Dooku and Mace. There is a specific book that I am thinking of that I do not know.

Help? They fought in Obsession. I think it was the last issue.

Incanus
I look at it like this: Yoda, being "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" up to that time, says alot about how p[owerful he is. That, on top of him being like 800 something years old, most of that time working to become betetr with the force and with a lightsaber, the fact that Yoda has the speed and skill necessary to beat the living crap out of Anakin, and the fact of him being the highest ranking jedi in the ordfer, in their hierarchy, grand master and what not.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They fought in Obsession. I think it was the last issue.
Comix?

sad

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Comix?

sad Yup...

Slash_KMC

Advent
Originally posted by Gideon
no.

You implied that Dooku is not necessarily weaker than Yoda; I'm telling you that Yoda is better. And by a lot.

And I told you that I don't care how you interpreted my message. Slash nailed what I meant.



It'd be particularly foolish to believe that George Lucas was talking about purely sabers, which is all I've ever been talking about. In sabers, yes, Anakin can compete with anyone in the PT. And Sidious would not hand Anakin his ass there. He can defeat him, sure, perhaps more often than not, or not, but there's absolutely no way that he'll be doing it easily.

Gideon
Advent
And I told you that I don't care how you interpreted my message. Slash nailed what I meant.

I realize all you do anymore is essentially make poor excuses ("Anakin wasn't a Jedi... because he didn't feel like one... he was a Sith from birth... ergo the quote doesn't apply hahahaha!!1!"wink, but perhaps you could spend more time actually articulating your argument?

Silly idea, I know.

And before you go on some tangent about the demands of your social life and limited time and how both prevented you from offering something worthwhile, you do have enough time to log on and argue to death with DS. You've got the time. You're just not managing it.

And I realize the first paragraph looks like a question, but it's actually a demand.



Right, and unless it's a handicap match in which Sidious has no access to his Force powers, Anakin might be okay. But otherwise, Sidious and Yoda each would annihilate, curbstomp, and otherwise atomize Anakin in a fight. They are far more powerful in the Force, which is really all they need in an actual duel.

I just orgasmed a little bit.

@ Slash:

See what I told Advent. There were to parts to DS's claim (Dooku can't handle Yoda or Mace). She told him good luck proving it. She's naturally embarrassed that she said that and that I so easily proved Yoda's superiority over Dooku and she responds with hostile responses which go to the rhythm of YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT I MEANT!!!1!

As for the statement in DR, it doesn't qualify. But Windu's victory over a more powerful opponent due to tools he will have access to in a fight with Dooku and the fact that Dooku fled from Windu on Boz Pity suggests a slight disparity, all things considered.

P.S., Advent, just so you don't explode in a hostile fashion, I'm just kidding and I'll always love you. smile

Advent
Well, I made clear precisely what I meant; there's nothing for me to be embarrassed about or get hostile over. When I get embarrassed, I usually try to scuttle off quietly and don't respond at all, trying to let the thread die off; for future reference.

What was it I even said...?



What is "it"? What is it "I'm not arguing either"? It's Dooku and Mace; the only two names that were actually mentioned.

Again: You can keep going on and on about Force powers, Yoda vs. Dooku, and "non-handicap" matches, but like I said, I don't care because I agree with you. Having pointed out that I'm talking about specifically saber dueling is part of the other reason why I don't care what you're saying.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Gideon
See what I told Advent. There were to parts to DS's claim (Dooku can't handle Yoda or Mace). She told him good luck proving it. She's naturally embarrassed that she said that and that I so easily proved Yoda's superiority over Dooku and she responds with hostile responses which go to the rhythm of YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT I MEANT!!!1!

As for the statement in DR, it doesn't qualify. But Windu's victory over a more powerful opponent due to tools he will have access to in a fight with Dooku and the fact that Dooku fled from Windu on Boz Pity suggests a slight disparity, all things considered.

So we're talking about a contradiction then. Because the quote clearly states that they would be equals on neutral ground and that Dooku would be better on Vjun, unless you gave some weird unorthodox twist to the quote. On the other hand, Mace did beat someone stronger than Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Contradiction.

By the way, running away from an opponent doesn't mean you would automatically have lost if you did fight him.

Gideon
Slash_KMC
So we're talking about a contradiction then. Because the quote clearly states that they would be equals on neutral ground and that Dooku would be better on Vjun, unless you gave some weird unorthodox twist to the quote. On the other hand, Mace did beat someone stronger than Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Contradiction.

I subscribe to a suspension of disbelief, assuming that canon statements and events aren't written arbitrarily. A responsible, intelligent, and objective logician (me) assumes that the authors and writers and staff at LFL have some general knowledge of what the hell they're doing and that we can't simply disregard statements, events, or situations simply because we don't like them. It's either all or nothing: unless there is a contradiction as such that can't be resolved logically or it is officially retconned, that means it's canon and everyone will accept it and move on.

It's canon that Mace Windu utilized the metaphysical nature of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism to defeat Darth Sidious in combat. These tools -- the shatterpoint charism and Vaapad -- aren't isolated strictly to a fight with Sidious. They would be present for Windu's exploitation in a fight with Dooku as well. It's fact that Sidious is more powerful and more dangerous than Dooku. It's also a fact that despite the fact that Count Dooku vowed to "deal with the Jedi!" during the Republic's siege of Boz Pity, he opted to allow General Grievous's Magnaguards to interfere while he made his escape.

I look at it like this: if the two were to fight, Windu would have access to the same tools that were sufficient enough to defeat someone who is much more powerful and dangerous than Dooku. Unless there's something special about Dooku, unless he has some sort of immunization to Vaapad, I see no reason to conclude that a lightsaber duel would end in anything other than a very likely defeat for Dooku.

In terms of skill, you have someone who is an unimaginably skilled fencer -- the master of Makashi, the pinnacle of lightsaber-to-lightsaber fighting -- and a skilled Master of the Force versus someone who invented his own lightsaber form and is a high end master of multiple forms. All things considered, I'd say they could be easily even.

In skill. But Dooku's dark side allegiance leaves him vulnerable to Vaapad and Windu's shatterpoint charism would be enough to tip the scales.



Addressed.

Dr McBeefington
One thing Gideon. I don't know if this is just a theory or we've discussed this before, but I would think that the more powerful the dark sider, the more effective the Vaapad's "superconducting loop". This also works negatively. The weaker the dark sider (dooku), the less effective Vaapad is.

Mr Omiverseria
Indeed.

Originally posted by Balmung
S = Shatterpoint
V = Vaapad
L = Lightsaber Skill
D = Dark Side Power

The higher L is, the lower S is.
The higher D is, the higher V is.
Ergo, the higher D is with respect to L, the higher S + V is.
The higher L is with respect to D, the lower S + V is.

Dooku's D with respect to L is much lower than it is for Sidious, and as such S + V would be much lower against him than it would be against Sidious.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
One thing Gideon. I don't know if this is just a theory or we've discussed this before, but I would think that the more powerful the dark sider, the more effective the Vaapad's "superconducting loop". This also works negatively. The weaker the dark sider (dooku), the less effective Vaapad is.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Gideon

It's canon that Mace Windu utilized the metaphysical nature of Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism to defeat Darth Sidious in combat. These tools -- the shatterpoint charism and Vaapad -- aren't isolated strictly to a fight with Sidious. They would be present for Windu's exploitation in a fight with Dooku as well. It's fact that Sidious is more powerful and more dangerous than Dooku.

So your using the old A>B>C which certainly doesnt work here.. Vappad gave Mace Sidious's speed and Power(his 2 main advantages over Mace) during their fight.
Now you explain to me how hes going to replicate that against Dooku. A guy whose main advantages over Mace would be greater fencing skills and more knowledge and possibly greater command of the Force..

Originally posted by Gideon

It's also a fact that despite the fact that Count Dooku vowed to "deal with the Jedi!" during the Republic's siege of Boz Pity, he opted to allow General Grievous's Magnaguards to interfere while he made his escape.

Right you obviously dnt understand the typical hero/villain mentality do you?? Let me give you a lesson. Hero is willing to give his life to take down villain. Villain not willing to give his life EVER.. This simple logical hero/villain mentality was especially true of Mace and Dooku..

Now you tell me if Mace and Dooku were equal, like DR says and like Obsession certainly showed while the were duelling, who would have more to Lose in a fight to the Death, Mace or Dooku??

Have you also got no memory of the fact that Sidious tried to flee from Yoda... Are you really suggesting that means Yoda is more powerful or better.. And Sidious didnt have anyone else hunting him at the time.. Dooku on the other hand was fighting equally against Mace while all the other Jedi on Boz city were hunting him.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So your using the old A>B>C which certainly doesnt work here.. Vappad gave Mace Sidious's speed and Power(his 2 main advantages over Mace) during their fight.
Now you explain to me how hes going to replicate that against Dooku. Same way he did with Sidious. Except this time it probably would not require as much force reserves from Mace, or take as long to match Dooku's speed and fury.

Mace is faster, physically stronger, and has displayed far more impressive raw TK power than Dooku.

I do not see how Dooku's force mastery is miles above Windu. And its not enough to overcome him in battle.



Dooku is also not your typical coward-like villain either. He is usually very arogant, and considers himself superior than most jedi. When have you seen him run from Anakin or Obi Wan? When have you seen him run from any jedi besides Mace or Yoda?

Dooku, maybe.

Sidious had control over the republic and just declared his new empire. He had already won, basically. If he died at the hands of Yoda, all that would have been for nothing.

Besides, Sidious and Dooku are very different in personality. Sidious does anything to win, whether it is cheating or not. I mean... he did kill his master in his sleep. You hardly ever see Sidious underestimate his opponents. He is more sneaky and devious than Dooku.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Same way he did with Sidious. Except this time it probably would not require as much force reserves from Mace, or take as long to match Dooku's speed and fury.

Same way he did to sidious?? so what hes gna sink into vapaad and match dooku's superior speed?? No. It would be totally different to Mace vs. Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace is faster, physically stronger, and has displayed far more impressive raw TK power than Dooku..

I dnt think hes shown better TK feats than Dooku.. But I do think Dooku has showed far more Force domination over other powerful force users than Mace has. Examples against Sora Bulq, Obiwan, Ventress, Tholme, Vos... the list is endless.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I do not see how Dooku's force mastery is miles above Windu. And its not enough to overcome him in battle...

And I dnt see Mace being "MILES" ahead in strength and speed.. But Mace is faster and physically stronger, whilst Dooku has better fencing skills, and more knowledge of the Force, hence them being overall "equal on neutral ground.."



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku is also not your typical coward-like villain either. He is usually very arogant, and considers himself superior than most jedi. When have you seen him run from Anakin or Obi Wan? When have you seen him run from any jedi besides Mace or Yoda?...

So you think dnt see Dooku as a coward.. Instead you see him as a complete Moron, the dumbest villain ever... One who would be willing to have a long drawn out fight with Windu whilst being hunted by several other jedi.. No Dooku is smart and that was a tactical retreat, and if you read shatterpoint, or comics you would know Mace was perfectly willing to give his life to take out Dooku, hence advantage to Mace.

And actually he has run from Obi-Wan and Anakin in like the 10th episode of CW cartoon. So get your facts right and accept the fact that Dooku is smart enough to know when to retreat... and its not just about him thinking hes tackling a more powerful jedi.. In fact if you read Dark Rendezvous he actually though he was Equal or even Superior to Yoda on Geonosis!!


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious had control over the republic and just declared his new empire. He had already won, basically. If he died at the hands of Yoda, all that would have been for nothing.

And what? Dying at the hands of Windu would have been good for Dooku on Boz city??? It was the same thing, Yoda was willing to give his life to take out Sidious, just as Mace was willing to give his life to take out Dooku on Boz city.. Both those heroes certainly had a decent chance of winning.. The fact that they were going for the kill, and willing to sacrifice their own lives just made them more of a threat to those respective Siths.
Hence the smart Sith would try to avoid those fights.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, Sidious and Dooku are very different in personality. Sidious does anything to win, whether it is cheating or not. I mean... he did kill his master in his sleep. You hardly ever see Sidious underestimate his opponents. He is more sneaky and devious than Dooku.

They are both Cunning Siths, whose ultimate goal is to survive and rule, not to sacrifice themselves.

Gideon
DARTH POWER
So your using the old A>B>C which certainly doesnt work here.. Vappad gave Mace Sidious's speed and Power(his 2 main advantages over Mace) during their fight.
Now you explain to me how hes going to replicate that against Dooku. A guy whose main advantages over Mace would be greater fencing skills and more knowledge and possibly greater command of the Force..

A>B>C argument? Hardly; such an argument would be more along the lines of "Obi-Wan beat Anakin, who beat Dooku, ergo Obi-Wan would beat Dooku!"

Windu was able to best Sidious -- who is far more powerful and more dangerous than Dooku -- in a duel because of the shatterpoint charism and Vaapad. Both of those techniques wouldn't just not be there if Dooku were at the other end of Windu's blade.

Dooku's not a perfect duelist, given his eventual defeat and death, so it is extremely likely that Windu can identify a shatterpoint in either his technique or the situation. Lastly, Vaapad is the deadliest form of all and enables its masters to negate virtually any advantage of a dark side-affiliated opponent within a reasonable amount of time.

Dooku's best bet is to kill Windu before he can tap into either the shatterpoint charism or Vaapad, and I don't see that happening.



Please find it within you to refrain from lecturing if not out of simple decency than for two very fine reasons: (1) I'm right and (2) I'm better than you.

Dooku was willing to put his life on the line, otherwise he'd never enter the field of battle at all. There's always a risk. Dooku reconsidered after finding Windu. Says something powerful to me.



Equal? Exchanging a few blows and then having your minions blindside your opponent does not equal make. Dooku, who is noted for being enormously confident (arrogant?) in his abilities... reconsidered a fight to the death with Windu. No one said it meant he was inferior, just that he considers Windu an extremely dangerous opponent.



Sidious just achieved galactic domination and knew very well that Yoda might hand him his ass. He was right to run. As was Dooku. But they'd only run for one reason:

They knew it was extremely possible that they'd lose.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Same way he did to sidious?? so what hes gna sink into vapaad and match dooku's superior speed?? No. It would be totally different to Mace vs. Sidious.Vaapad isn't an RPG technique, you don't get +50 Opponent's speed, you match their speed. If Mace is faster than Dooku, then good for him. If he isn't, then Vaapad's gonna come in handy. Plus it's not just speed, it's their very power, and it's gonna be reflected right back at Dooku. It's a superconducting loop, not a superconducting straight line.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I dnt think hes shown better TK feats than Dooku.. But I do think Dooku has showed far more Force domination over other powerful force users than Mace has. Examples against Sora Bulq, Obiwan, Ventress, Tholme, Vos... the list is endless.And you think Mace couldn't do that? The guy tossed an AT-TE over a cliff with ease, he swept away hordes of B2s with telekinesis.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And actually he has run from Obi-Wan and Anakin in like the 10th episode of CW cartoon. So get your facts right and accept the fact that Dooku is smart enough to know when to retreat... and its not just about him thinking hes tackling a more powerful jedi.. In fact if you read Dark Rendezvous he actually though he was Equal or even Superior to Yoda on Geonosis!!As much as I agree that Dooku's smart enough to know when to retreat, if he truly believed that he was more powerful than Yoda on Geonosis, then one does have to wonder about just how smart he really is.

Red Nemesis
This is not entirely accurate.

A villain does not have to be a coward. A hero does not have to be dumb.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This is not entirely accurate.

A villain does not have to be a coward. A hero does not have to be dumb.

+1

The Joker is willing to give his life.

kotorfan
Originally posted by Stealth
"chosen one"- Bring a balance to the force. They thought it would bring a balance to the lightside, but their was more light than dark. So he made it balanced by joining the darkside.

Well that's my theory anyway..

thats my theory too! =)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And you think Mace couldn't do that? The guy tossed an AT-TE over a cliff with ease, he swept away hordes of B2s with telekinesis.

The AT-TE didnt seem easy to me... It seemes like he used both hands and considerable power. And lets not forget Dookus no slouch in the TK department agaisnt solid objects. He causes Stone Caves to collapse with extreme ease with a simple raise off a hand.


But Mace has yet to prove he could dominate all those jedis the way Dooku can just with the Force.. Dnt just make assumptions based on his telekenisis against non-force users.

Hes fought Ventress, (who actually staggered him at one point) and culdnt stop her escaping.. If he could simply paralyze her like Yoda and Dooku have done in the past, then she wuldnt have escaped him considering there was no explosion as a distraction like there was when Yoda had her..

Theyve also both fought Sora Bulq.. Dooku dominated Bulq in both force and the saber duel.. Although Mace ended his fight with Sora with a Force push, he hardly dominated him with the Force.. In fact Sora also got a force push on Mace earlier in the fight.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien
As much as I agree that Dooku's smart enough to know when to retreat, if he truly believed that he was more powerful than Yoda on Geonosis, then one does have to wonder about just how smart he really is.

According to DR he thought he was his equal, (poosibly superior). Thats just Darkside arrogance.. Anakin thought he was stronger than the emporer.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This is not entirely accurate.

A villain does not have to be a coward. A hero does not have to be dumb.

What would Dooku sacrifice his life for?? Or sidious for that matter? It didnt seem like Dooku wanted to sacrifice himself for the sith cause when palpatine ordered anakin to kill him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Gideon

Windu was able to best Sidious -- who is far more powerful and more dangerous than Dooku -- in a duel because of the shatterpoint charism and Vaapad. Both of those techniques wouldn't just not be there if Dooku were at the other end of Windu's blade.

But surely you can see theyd work differently and it would be a completely different fight.. Vapaad helped match Sidious's superiore speed and power. Those were sidious's advantages in a saber duel against mace, and vapaad helped mace to match him in that.
Now lets think of Dookus advantages over mace in a duel.. Probably NOT strength, speed or power. His advantages would more likely be better fencing skill, more elegance and precision, and possibly better mastery of the force. Do you really think Vapaad would give mace these superior abilities of Dooku's?? I seriosuly doubt it.

Originally posted by Gideon

Dooku's not a perfect duelist, given his eventual defeat and death, so it is extremely likely that Windu can identify a shatterpoint in either his technique or the situation.

Hes the master of makashi.. the ultimate refinement in blade to blade duelling.. You cant really improve on that. He was defeated by another incredible duelist but one who was simply much more powerful. He got overpowered.. simple as that. And shatterpoint gives no guarantee of a victory. Even if Mace sees Dooku's "physical" shatterpoint, taking advantage of that weak point is something else entirely.


Originally posted by Gideon

Please find it within you to refrain from lecturing if not out of simple decency than for two very fine reasons: (1) I'm right and (2) I'm better than you.

Dooku was willing to put his life on the line, otherwise he'd never enter the field of battle at all. There's always a risk. Dooku reconsidered after finding Windu. Says something powerful to me..

If you honestly expected Dooku to carry on a long and difficult duel with mace while several other jedi were on their way to help mace capture dooku, then you wuldnt survive long as a sith.
Taking a risk on the battlefield is slightly different to guaranteeing your capture(or death) which is what he would have done had he carried on fighting. Not simply because Mace is better... But because Mace himself would be a very difficlut opponent foe Dooku, who certainly has a decent chance of defeating him. With other jedi on the way, Dooku's death or capture was pretty much guaranteed.




Originally posted by Gideon

Equal? Exchanging a few blows and then having your minions blindside your opponent does not equal make. Dooku, who is noted for being enormously confident (arrogant?) in his abilities... reconsidered a fight to the death with Windu. No one said it meant he was inferior, just that he considers Windu an extremely dangerous opponent...

Clearly you havent read many comics. Fighting for 5 scenes is a decent size fight in a comic.. And each blow both kept their ground, both matched each other blow for blow... You think its be the same if Mace fought Obiwan or ventress?? Of course not.. The actual fight showed neither to have the advantage, which considering the circumstances actaully put Dooku at a Disadvantage. Because Dooku culdnt afford to draw, as that wuld guarantee his capture. I dnt see whats so difficult to understand there.



Originally posted by Gideon

Sidious just achieved galactic domination and knew very well that Yoda might hand him his ass. He was right to run. As was Dooku. But they'd only run for one reason:

They knew it was extremely possible that they'd lose.

Yes finally we are getting somewhere.. They both had a decent chance of losing, which is why theyd rather avoid those fights. NOT because they though they were inferior.

Gideon
DARTH POWER
The AT-TE didnt seem easy to me... It seemes like he used both hands and considerable power.

I saw Dooku give more effort -- strong gestures and visible concentration/effort on his face -- trying to collapse a walkway during RotS.

Advantage: Mace.



No one said Dooku was a slouch.



I believe Lucien is making a case for Windu's ability to easily grip and throw larger numbers and greater masses than Dooku has shown.



And a small group of pirates held Dooku captive in abject humilitation. I'll take being staggered by Ventress before being reduced to tears by a group of thugs.



WTF, where did Dooku dominate Sora with the Force? He blasted him with Force lightning once. Rather like Windu Force pushing Sora once.



Which proves how highly Dooku thinks of himself... and yet he still ran from Mace.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Gideon
I saw Dooku give more effort -- strong gestures and visible concentration/effort on his face -- trying to collapse a walkway during RotS.

Advantage: Mace.

You mean the one he collapsed on Obiwan with one hand after just flicking him away like a nobody while kicking anakin away like he was a nobody?? yeah your eyesight needs checking. theres no advantage to mace in the force.


Originally posted by Gideon
I believe Lucien is making a case for Windu's ability to easily grip and throw larger numbers and greater masses than Dooku has shown..

He can make a case all he wants.. the simple fact is Mace hasnt shown anything that proves he could finish Obiwan with a mere flick of the wrist.. or paralyze ventress by merely lifting a finger.



Originally posted by Gideon
And a small group of pirates held Dooku captive in abject humilitation. I'll take being staggered by Ventress before being reduced to tears by a group of thugs...

He was ambushed and didnt have his lightsaber.. It just shows jedis/siths arent invincible by people with no powers.
Your arguments have taken a new turn of desperation by bringing up the pirates episode.. Cad Bane just recently humiliated both Mace and Obi together by escaping them. Thats just one man without any powers.



Originally posted by Gideon
WTF, where did Dooku dominate Sora with the Force? He blasted him with Force lightning once. Rather like Windu Force pushing Sora once.

Are you that stupid??? Dooku was dominating Bulq with one hand while Force pushing Tholme away.. Then he disarmed Bulq of his shoto(Mace never managed to outduel Bulq), and finally completely knocked him out with FL??

Your comparing that to Mace fighting Bulq one on one, and getting force pushed onto the groung by Bulq earlier in the fight?? and even when Mace force pushed him, Bulq was still concious and its arguable whether the fight was over or not... Against Dooku, his FL was simply in a different league completely finishing Bulq leaving poor Tholme to fight Dooku on his own.




Originally posted by Gideon
Which proves how highly Dooku thinks of himself... and yet he still ran from Mace.

No he "walked" away from the planet swarming with jedi out to capture/kill him. Sidious who was also very arrogant and also considered himself above any jedi, actually did "Run" from Yoda. And only Yoda.. There was no one else after Sidious.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You mean the one he collapsed on Obiwan with one hand after just flicking him away like a nobody while kicking anakin away like he was a nobody?? yeah your eyesight needs checking. theres no advantage to mace in the force. His raw power elclipses Dooku's by far. Maybe Dooku is a little more refined, but not by a lot.




Are you kidding me? Mace would eat Obi Wan's ass up in a force contest. And as for Ventress, she was not trying to fight her master back. Dooku caught her by surprise. Dooku greatly hinted in that book that Sidious showed him the same treatment, but does that mean since Yoda did not, that Sidious is greater than Yoda?





Mace had no lightsaber while being surrounded by a thousand super battle droids, but managed to take them out with the force alone. I would say: A thousand SBD>>>>>about 20 drunken pirates.

Mace and Obi Wan were not defeated in battle by Cad Bane. They were not captured, or hung by chains. They were busy dodging several blaster bolts coming at them while being trapped in an energy field. That is how Cad made his escape.





Ummm... how can you call anyone stupid? You do realize that Mace and Bulq were on the same side, and that they were not fighting to hurt or kill eachother, don't you??






Dooku is the one who promised to deal with Mace. He went up to Mace trying to fight. Then after realizing how good Mace was, he RAN.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
His raw power elclipses Dooku's by far.

No it doesnt. Just because youve seen him crush more droids means nothing, considering Dooku doesnt fight battledroids as therye usually fighting under him.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you kidding me? Mace would eat Obi Wan's ass up in a force contest. ]

Beating Obi-wan in a force contest is very different to disposing of a jedi of Obi-wan's calibre with a mere flick of the wrist.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And as for Ventress, she was not trying to fight her master back. Dooku caught her by surprise. Dooku greatly hinted in that book that Sidious showed him the same treatment, but does that mean since Yoda did not, that Sidious is greater than Yoda?.

All he did was raise a finger! Lol.. Ventress culdnt fight back even if she wanted to.. she was completley paralyzed and in pain. Dnt tell me about hints.. give me facts.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace had no lightsaber while being surrounded by a thousand super battle droids, but managed to take them out with the force alone. I would say: A thousand SBD>>>>>about 20 drunken pirates.

Please dnt compare feats from the new animation to the original cw mini series, which according to Dave Filoni had "over the top" force feats.

Not to mention even when mace did that, all the droids behind him wernt shooting while he took out all the ones in front. I doubt the pirates would be that dumb. So no i dnt think battle driods are superior to pirates in any way.

and hey Obiwan was ambushed by GG's droids and took them all out using the Force.. So are you gna tell me now that Obiwan's better with the Force than Dooku???!!!


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace and Obi Wan were not defeated in battle by Cad Bane..

I didnt say they were.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They were not captured, or hung by chains. ..

But Obiwan was captures and hung by those same pirates who captured Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
They were busy dodging several blaster bolts coming at them while being trapped in an energy field. That is how Cad made his escape...

Yeah Mace was pretty dumb how he fell right for that. "Ill get the holocron.. No i will".. Oh and i didnt see Mace just Force crushing everything in sight there... I mean surely 1000 droids is greater than several automatic blaster bolts! LOL
Look my point was Dooku's not the one to be humiliated by non force users.. HOws that ambush different to being ambushed by pirates surroundung you?? Except Mace had Obiwan to aid him and both had their lightsabers.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ummm... how can you call anyone stupid? You do realize that Mace and Bulq were on the same side, and that they were not fighting to hurt or kill eachother, don't you??...

WHAT???!!! Go read schism again. Bulq was seduced by the dark side and Mace found out. When did either of them hint theyre not willing to hurt the other?? Dnt just make stuff up.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku is the one who promised to deal with Mace. He went up to Mace trying to fight. Then after realizing how good Mace was, he RAN.

First of all he never promised to deal with Mace specifically. He decided to avoid a long drawn out fight with a guy whose possibly his equal and in a fight that would have ensured his capture on that planet.
As far as the actual fight went they were equal blow for blow. There was no hint of either gaining an advantage in the fight.

Gideon
I'm not interested in carrying on this debate, for the simple reason that you clearly have a bias towards Dooku that borders on Nebaris's obsession with Bane. I could spend time elaborating on the following:

- When Dooku subdued Ventress, he was on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. It enhanced his abilities according to numerous passages. The book even mentions how Ventress could hold Dooku off, but she could not escape him if she came to Vjun -- in the "orbit" of Dooku's power.

- The pirates that captured Dooku didn't demonstrate any cunning outside of their singular leader. They were no more dangerous than battle droids or clone troopers, Dooku was overconfident and paid the price in abject humiliation.

- Cad Bane may have outwitted Windu, but he did not humiliate him in the same regard that Dooku was humiliated. Bane unleashed a series of deadly traps against the Jedi that allowed him to escape. Dooku was disarmed and captured. Twice.

- Ventress fled from Windu, and Windu overpowered Sora Bulq in a similar fashion: dominating him with the Force. The fact that Dooku did it with Force lightning in the middle of a lightsaber duel does not make it more impressive or more final. That Dooku demonstrates superiority to Bulq with the Force is different from demonstrating superior swordsmanship. Mace is better in both regards than Bulq.

- The comic shows them exchanging blows, it does not give us second-by-second choreography. For all we know, Windu was being pressed back or vice versa. All it shows that Dooku and Windu fought and neither one of them were disarmed. But the fact remains that Dooku called for his minions to blindside Mace rather than sit and duke it out with him. And as you say, Dooku is enormously confident in his own abilities.

- The fact that Force lightning > Force push is something of a no brainer and it has nothing to do with the strength of the opponents.

- Dooku fled Boz Pity because he knew he was in serious danger. He was outwitted, outmaneuvered, and outmatched. He vowed to deal with the Jedi and the second Windu strolled onto the scene, changed his mind. Comparing this situation to Sidious is stupid. Sidious was trapped in confined quarters with the most powerful Jedi in existence. After all of his success? He was right to run. But the point is the same. Sidious knew that there was a tremendous chance he could lose. Same for Dooku.

All of this is to say that you've provided no case for Dooku's superiority.

Lord Lucien
He won't listen. His ego's been attacked by three people now. He'll continue this until it become a debate on the ethics of debate. It's happened infinity+ times.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not interested in carrying on this debate, for the simple reason that you clearly have a bias towards Dooku that borders on Nebaris's obsession with Bane.

I know you dnt want to carry on.. you dnt like being challenged..
And i have no bias or obsession towards Dooku. Iv just pointed out his feats against the likes of powerful jedi/dark jedis such as Bulq, Vos, Obiwan, Ventress, Tholme... The list goes on.
And all you lot have in return is oh, hes crap he got caught by pirates.

As for your final arguments, (with or without your elaborations) I think you know i could easily argue all of them because theres no real substance in any of them. So i wnt bother.

Originally posted by Gideon
All of this is to say that you've provided no case for Dooku's superiority.

Oh and i never actually once said Dooku is plain out superior to Mace. Never even argued that. Iv said from the start DR calls them equals.
Although I have provided masses of evidence of Dooku being superior in certain qualities. Whilst of course Mace is superior in other ways.

I know its hard for you to admit someone your arguing has points, and may be right, but thats your own arrogance and not my problem. Carry on your one sided debates.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He won't listen. His ego's been attacked by three people now. He'll continue this until it become a debate on the ethics of debate. It's happened infinity+ times.

I know its frustrating Lucien that I have countered all your arguments many times over..

"He wnt listen" means "he wnt accept our arguments".. Well the fact is iv countered them all, so theres no need for me to accept your flawed arguments.

And by the way its you and gideon who've diverted away from the actual debate and made it into "oh its him.. he wnt listen" as in a personal attack on me, simply for challenging your arguments, which isnt even difficult.

So dnt be a hypocrite and say im the one whose gna change this to a debate on ethics of debate, when your the ones who start with the personal attacks.

SIDIOUS 66
Except you didn't point out anything that Dooku was superior in. The reason why I am dropping the debate with you is because you wanna argue with canon. If you don't like it, you don't go by it. Yes the first clone wars cartoon was over the top force powers. But so was TFU, so should we not go by it because we don't like it. It's still canon. Windu also displayed greater feats in the new series than Dooku also.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except you didn't point out anything that Dooku was superior in. The reason why I am dropping the debate with you is because you wanna argue with canon. If you don't like it, you don't go by it. Yes the first clone wars cartoon was over the top force powers. But so was TFU, so should we not go by it because we don't like it. It's still canon. Windu also displayed greater feats in the new series than Dooku also.

No you stopped debating because i ripped apart all your points.. With TFU its the novel thats considered cannon.. We cant consider every move in the game cannon.

You were comparing force feats from Dave Filonis show to the show that Dave filoni himself calls "over the top".. Use logic, how is that a fair comparison.

I challenged you and said why didnt Mace just force crush those lasers shooting at him and obiwan, but you had no answer. That in itself shows the differnce in power level of the mini series and Dave Filonis series.

Not to mention that I tackled that feat anyway. The fact that the droids were being dumb and not all firing at him. And i also pointed out how Obiwan was ambushed by droids and took them all out with the Force, and we all know Dooku is far far above Obiwan in the force.

And actually your being very hypocrytical because Your the one whose not accepted cannon. You simply wnt accept that Dooku had a far far easier time dealing with Bulq and Ventress than Mace did. Which is simply proof Dooku is superior to Mace in the force.. Maybe not in raw power, but certainly in knowldege and mastery of using that power to dominate other force users. Thats cannon. But you wnt accept it.

You even resorted to lies saying Bulq and Mace wernt trying to hurt each other without any proof or source to back that up. Iv got the comic.. Bulq vowed to kill Mace. Mace was fighting for his life and for the republic. Never once did he even hint he wuldnt hurt Bulq.

I havent lied once. You have. You accuse me of not accepting cannon, when actually thats you. And then you have the nerve to tell me you wnt debate me on moral grounds??? what a joke!

REXXXX
CaNon.

Power is right, if it was displayed in the novel, it is considered canon, whereas every single move or power cannot be as it is up to the player what happens or what you earn.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you stopped debating because i ripped apart all your points.. LMAO....

No, you didn't. And you still have not got to Gideon's points.


I'm not going by game mechanics. The novel is also has over the top force powers, hence the name "The Force Unleashed".

Dave has no right to decide what is canon on other sources. The first cartoons are still canon... get over it. The fact remains that Mace took out larger more superior forces with the force alone, while Dooku was ashamed by DRUNKEN pirates. Hell even Palpatine seemed too ashamed to look at him.

If you go by the new series alone, you have Mace tossing over a huge walker, reducing a small army of droids to scrap, and slambing a huge platform to crush a tank.



Stop being dumb. I know you're not.

Why didn't Count Dooku use force lightning during his last fight with Anakin and Obi Wan?

Mace was busy dodging incoming blaster bolts. And who said he can just crush everything in sight. He couldn't use a force wave on for space like he did on Dantooine. He was in an inclosed area.

The pirates were not firing at Dooku either. And Mace took out the droids before they could fire.


When was this? And did he have the aid of a lightsaber?

See Gideon's post. And as I said Mace didn't seem to wanna hurt him. That is why he ended the fight with a simple force push.

See above.



Oh... Stop.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
LMAO....

No, you didn't. And you still have not got to Gideon's points.

Cause Gideon said hes not debating anymore.. And hes brought up the same points which iv already answered. For example hes saying again Dooku used FL on Bulq just like Mace used the Force on Bulq.

Big difference which iv already expalined a zillion times is the FL completely knocked him out. Mace's Force push didnt... And Bulq also got a force push on Mace.. Mace was on the ground! He culdnt force push Dooku onto the ground in his dreams..

And i checked again, Mace got in a force push while Bulq was just rambling on.. and his force push didnt even leave him unconcious so not in Dooku's FL league which iv already explained but Gideon just doesnt listen (or doesnt want to understand the simple and obvious point).

Also Dooku was tooling Bulq in the saber fight as well. Mace wasnt.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not going by game mechanics. The novel is also has over the top force powers, hence the name "The Force Unleashed"..

The name came from the game.. and was in reference to a particular character whose force powers were great and whose not holding back on using the force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dave has no right to decide what is canon on other sources. The first cartoons are still canon... get over it."..

The story is cannon.. however if they showed the same story in the new cartoon, they would probably show something similar but dun with much difficulty, and perhaps with more tactics used. Look Yoda in episode 1 of the new series culdnt take on as many droids with his lightsaber as mace did without in that mini.. So by that argument Mace has better TK feats than both Yoda and Sidious. So just think about that and use some logic.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The fact remains that Mace took out larger more superior forces with the force alone, while Dooku was ashamed by DRUNKEN pirates. Hell even Palpatine seemed too ashamed to look at him.."..

Dooku actually never attempted to use the Force on them.. More proof that Dooku doesnt like risking his life.. Mace as we know is more than willing to give his life for the cause of the republic... So Obiwan took out many more driods than those pirates with the force alone... so is your argument that Obiwan is better with the Force than Dooku now?? Of course not.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you go by the new series alone, you have Mace tossing over a huge walker,.."..

With both hands and full concentration.. Whilst Dooku just raises his hand and causes the stone roof to cave in on anakin and obiwan.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
reducing a small army of droids to scrap,,.."..

yeah i dnt even remeber the last time we saw dooku fight clones, forget droids.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and slambing a huge platform to crush a tank.

Ashoka pulls a larger platform onto a whole load of droids to save anakin in the CW movie.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why didn't Count Dooku use force lightning during his last fight with Anakin and Obi Wan?.

Maybe cause he was just able to flick Obiwan away with his hand.. Anakin was too much for him, and gave him no oppurtunity to use his greater force powers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace was busy dodging incoming blaster bolts. And who said he can just crush everything in sight. He couldn't use a force wave on for space like he did on Dantooine. He was in an inclosed area.

Should have been easier.. Just smash the whole wall in.. It was only a few guns!!! If that was Dooku ud be going on and on, that Dooku has his lightsaber and struggles against a few guns whilst Uber Mace without his Saber would smash 1000 battledroids! Lol!
Not to mention Mace was in an open space on Genosia in ATOC.. but culdnt do any such thing... A feat that would have saved hunderds of Jedis!


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The pirates were not firing at Dooku either. And Mace took out the droids before they could fire..

But Dooku knows the pirated arnt as stupid as droids and would all shoot together.. Also mace took out all the droids in front of him, whilst none of the ones behind him were firing.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When was this? And did he have the aid of a lightsaber?..

Episode 4 of the new series.. GG and his droids ambushed Obiwan, and he took them all out including 3 destroyer droids just using the force! he had his lightsaber but didnt use it.. he just used the force.. I guess that makes Obiwan a better force user than Dooku right?? because Dooku got caught by pirates!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
See Gideon's post. And as I said Mace didn't seem to wanna hurt him. That is why he ended the fight with a simple force push.


Iv read Gideons desperate ramblings. Mace pushed Bulq while Bulq was rambling to go save the other jedis.. There was not even the slightest hint anywhere that he wasnt willing to hurt Bulq. You need to get over that. If he culd have rendered Bulq unconcious like Dooku did then he WOULD HAVE! Because he didnt want Bulq to escape. Case closed. Stop arguing this point..
Dooku has without a doubt showed far superior skills against Bulq and Ventress than Mace has. And they are the best source of comparison as they are opponents that both of them have fought.

Red Nemesis
facepalm

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Iv read Gideons desperate ramblings. This requires a double dose. facepalmfacepalm

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
facepalm
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This requires a double dose. facepalmfacepalm
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/20/128847344485080355.jpg

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
facepalm

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This requires a double dose. facepalmfacepalm

Originally posted by mattatom
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/20/128847344485080355.jpg

Facepalm jackpot. Ka-Ching!!

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