Luke CAN'T be that strong of a jedi

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Vanquish
Sorry Luke fans, but I just don't see how Luke can be considered a strong Jedi. Sure he has the genes and the potential, but that isn't enough. He was just too poorly trained to be strong at the time of ROTJ. Even Anakin, the chosen one needed to be trained for many years before he became powerful and even after long years of training under one of the best masters, he still lost most of his fights.

Simply because of his incredibly poor training, wouldn't he have to be one of the weakest Jedi ever?

jedimaster2000
I agree. Just because Skywalker is Luke's last name, people tend to think that no one can light a candle to him, regardless of how little training he recieved. And I have also heard people saying Luke is as powerful as Mace, Dooku, Qui-Gon etc. because his genetics demands that he whoops ass. That is pure nonsense. Skywalker blood doesn't mean squat if you don't have the adequate training and experience. Saying Luke can compare with them is like saying that the son of Albert Enstein can drop out of school in Grade 5 and be smarter than an average university graduate.

Batman316
Luke is the first Jedi trained 'in the new' way. The Jedi fall because they are too stuck in their old ways. Perhaps the new way that Obi and Yoda learn makes a difference

Ushgarak
That is speculation and untrue.

And Luke isn't that powerful in ROTJ, so there is no issue here. He has POTENTIAL power, but by the end of ROTJ he has only just finished his padawanship!

yerssot
Lucas never said that Luke was a strong jedi, he states it when talking about the fights in TPM, something in the lines of:
you saw old men and machines fighting and young men learning from these cripled people, but now you can see the jedi in the prime of their time...

tlbauerle
Exactly...which makes it funny becaue DV is essentially trashed by a padawan!!!

Clarification: Is dueling DV considered Luke's version of the trials?

Yoda states: "One thing remains...Vader, you must confront Vader...Only then a Jedi will you be."

JKozzy
I always understood confronting Vader to be Luke's version of the trials. yes

Jackie Malfoy
Originally posted by Vanquish
Sorry Luke fans, but I just don't see how Luke can be considered a strong Jedi. Sure he has the genes and the potential, but that isn't enough. He was just too poorly trained to be strong at the time of ROTJ. Even Anakin, the chosen one needed to be trained for many years before he became powerful and even after long years of training under one of the best masters, he still lost most of his fights.

Simply because of his incredibly poor training, wouldn't he have to be one of the weakest Jedi ever?

I am not a luke fan at all so bear with me when I say I think he got good jedi training he was weak when he was with the empire because of his thoughts on this friends which a jedi can not have.JM smile

Darth_Glentract
He had obi-wan's force ghost to teach him for several years

Darth_Janus
Is that why he is surprised to see him in ESB?

I read the novelisations of the original trilogy way back when. It never said Luke was trained by ghost Obi Wan.

shoodowopwop
i agree on the whole luke pansy thing. doenst even get to finsh his training with yoda, he is at the same stage in rotj luke v vader duel than he was in the esb vader luke duel when he left yoda. it doest seem long enough.

Red Superfly
Luke's tale is more spiritual. People forget that STar Wars is not about how powerful a character is. Luke is an apprentice. Luke reveals that much when he is told that in order to be a Jedi, he must face Darth Vader again.

"One thing remains, Vader, you must confront Vader, then only then, a Jedi will you be" - Yoda ROTJ.

PLease can we forget this whole Luke = power thing? It's unfair to even judge Luke because he is taught differently, and the tale ends when he becomes a Knight. The Skywalker family runs strong with the force = fact. Their potential is great. We don't need to see Luke defeat everything in order to realise he is a powerful Jedi Knight and will become even more powerful in time.

It's like comparring TPM Obi-Wan to everyone else. Drop it and enjoy the story.

Sesse
lol... What if Ben made some holorecords in his place during those years of his exile.

He could have saved them on disks, which could be player on any standard holotv.

"Testing... Testing... Oh yes. It's working. Ahem. Hello, Luke. I am Obi-Wan Kenobi, and this is the first disk of the 'Secrets of the jedi' series. Please ensure that you were provided all that you need in order to start your training. Should something be missing, call to Ben Kenobi. 054488732. Thank you.. *Insert Disk 2*"


Obi Wan tried to give the package to Luke when he was "old enough", but surprisingly his uncle wouldn't allow it.

After meeting luke out in the desert, Obi wan decided that it was better to train him personally. Now when luke returned to bens hut to rebuild
his lightsaber, he found the disks as well...

A great theory.

And we have discussed numerous times about lukes powerfulness.

exanda kane
thats a nice theory. but there should be know need to explain.
When Yoda says the "you must confront vader, only then will a jedi you become" it means that all he has to do is face Vader. Vader won't kill his own son because he is the chosen one and he destroys the Sith (eventually).

Darth Dementus
I agree. If you put Luke against any Sith from the Old Republic days, the Sith would dominate Luke.

obi-one killer
If any of read youd see that there was records of training and even how to build lightsabers. Yoda and Obi-Won trained him to be a warior not a keeper of the peace like the old jedi order that is one reason they lost the clone wars. Sesse is right mostly he didnt make the discs just for luke he made them so luke could us them to teach students to become jedi.

Sodo
I don't think Luke was meant to be "The Ultimate Destroyer" kind of guy. He was taught by a Yoda far beyond his prime and had no physical power whatsoever. However, he didn't really need to win any fights. I saw Luke as a kind of leverage for Vader to find out what he really needed to do: Kill Sidious.

Ushgarak
Absolutely so, Sodo. DUnno whee you got that idea from, killer!

Mind you, I'd be careful about thinking that Yoda knew Luke could turn Vader back- that was meant to be Luke's unique contribution. He wasn't entirely a pawn, you know, he did have some achievement of his own.

maifoshis
luke skywalker was trained by the will of the force becoming a jedi by confronting vader was only the beginning from there on he is thrown into all sorts of situatuions that strengthen him spiritually and physically and eventually he does become the most powerful being in the galaxy simple because he is the only practising jedi. when he eventually starts the praxeum on yavin4 kyp durron does surpass him in terms of raw power but skywalker is still the complete jedi and a template for the future.

yerssot
as long as you don't use Kyp as canon wink

mossman
Originally posted by Vanquish
Sorry Luke fans, but I just don't see how Luke can be considered a strong Jedi. Sure he has the genes and the potential, but that isn't enough. He was just too poorly trained to be strong at the time of ROTJ. Even Anakin, the chosen one needed to be trained for many years before he became powerful and even after long years of training under one of the best masters, he still lost most of his fights.

Simply because of his incredibly poor training, wouldn't he have to be one of the weakest Jedi ever?


Well done for totally missing the whole point.

"Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not." - Yoda, Episode III novelization

"You must do what you feel is right, of course." - Ben Kenobi, A New Hope

"Wars not make one great." - Yoda, The Empire Stirkes Back

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

"Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." - Luke Skywalker, Return of the Jedi

Luke got the best training of all.
Luke showed true strength.

Fishy
He became a Jedi but he was no fighter

yodafan
I think Luke was a Jedi but the only reason he won is because his Father didn't really wan't to kill him. If he had a fight with Dooku or Maul he would be toast. BUT there is one thing, if Sidius is so powerful why didn't he turn on his lightsaber in ROTJ and slice luke into little pieces. He should have sensed that Vader would turn on him, after all even Luke was able to see the future in TESB.

Fishy
Originally posted by yodafan
I think Luke was a Jedi but the only reason he won is because his Father didn't really wan't to kill him. If he had a fight with Dooku or Maul he would be toast. BUT there is one thing, if Sidius is so powerful why didn't he turn on his lightsaber in ROTJ and slice luke into little pieces. He should have sensed that Vader would turn on him, after all even Luke was able to see the future in TESB.

He didn't expect it. The future is clouded no matter how clear it may seem... Yoda says so himself, and why didn't he kill Luke? Because he wanted Vader to do it. Vader should have killed Luke or be killed. That was the real test to see if his apprentice was worthy and if not he could immediately get a new apprentice.

Vanquish
SPOILER:

Remember also that Palpy does the same thing in ROTS in the Windu duel. He brings himself to the mercy of Windu, hoping that Anakin turns to the darkside. I guess it is a leap of faith. He knows that if he can't turn Anakin to the dark side, he can't execute his plans, so he mine as well risk it all to persue his goals. It works, and Anakin helps him.

In ROTJ, same situation. He knows that he needs an apprentice still. He figures, he doesn't care if it's Vader or Luke, he just needs one of them. So, simply let them duel it out and the winner will have killed a family member, obviously prolonging Anakins dark side, or turning Luke to the dark side. Either way, he wins. He just didn't see the X factor, of Vader actually turning on him.

Vader isn't weak, so maybe he can hide things from Palpy in the same way that Palpy was able to hide things from the Jedi council for all those years. Maybe he can hide the love deep down that he felt for Luke from Palpy right to the final moment.

moviejunkie23
Originally posted by mossman
Well done for totally missing the whole point.

"Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not." - Yoda, Episode III novelization

"You must do what you feel is right, of course." - Ben Kenobi, A New Hope

"Wars not make one great." - Yoda, The Empire Stirkes Back

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

"Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." - Luke Skywalker, Return of the Jedi

Luke got the best training of all.
Luke showed true strength.

exactly. In the end Luke proved to be stronger than even his father

Doctor Strange
In ROTJ, I agree he wasn't a very powerful Jedi. Mace Windu or Ki-Adi-Mundi probably could have eaten him for breakfast. NJO Luke is obviously very powerful after all his trials, though.

darth marinus

darth marinus
can you tell me where your shag spot is

WindDancer
Don't post nonsense like that in this forum. This will be your only warning darth marinus.

Vanquish
I don't know what it is about people misquoting me all the time. For those who can't read very well, this isn't a discussion about whether Luke becomes powerful in NJO or anything like that when he is older. I clearly said:



Some people think Luke was very well trained and very powerful at the time of ROTJ, but I totally disagree. That is what the thread was meant to discuss.

I could honestly give a shit whether EU says Luke is the strongest ever. The movies clearly paint him out to be a farm boy with little or no real Jedi skills. I mean the kid had to actually throw the rock to close the gate on that monster. Any other half way decent 10 year old Padawan would simply have used the force to toss the rock at the control panel. But not douchebag Luke. He had to pick it up, aim, and throw it and hope like hell he hit it.

He's a tool, and Vader could have sliced and diced him in roughly 3 seconds if he wanted to.

Fishy
Well duh...

El_NINO
This may be a little off topic but why are the Lars family so angry at Ben for, rememeber Owen didnt want Luke to talk to him because they said he was a crazy hermit.

Sesse
They just might get a little attached to Luke after those years. As soon as he would meet ben, he would be taken with him to do what he is foreseen to be doing in the future.


Why couldn't Ben just keep him and train him from the birth?

El_NINO
can someone who reads EU books please explain this, I would most appreciate, thx in advance.

Doctor Strange
Because then the emporer would have sensed Luke and Obi-wan's power, which was what they were trying to avoid.

mossman
Some people think Luke was very well trained and very powerful at the time of ROTJ, but I totally disagree.

What do you mean by power?
What is true "power"?
I think you are missing the whole point of the saga here.
"Wars not make one great"

I could honestly give a shit whether EU says Luke is the strongest ever.

I agree.

The movies clearly paint him out to be a farm boy with little or no real Jedi skills.

Well, if by "the movies" you mean half of ANH, then I might entertain
your unique standpoint.

I mean the kid had to actually throw the rock to close the gate on that monster.

LOL

Any other half way decent 10 year old Padawan would simply have used the force to toss the rock at the control panel. But not douchebag Luke. He had to pick it up, aim, and throw it and hope like hell he hit it.

He's a far more human hero, that is his power.

He's a tool, and Vader could have sliced and diced him in roughly 3 seconds if he wanted to.

I take it you've never watched ROTJ any futher than the Rancor bit then - I recommend you do...
roll eyes (sarcastic)

obi-one killer
if you know anything the padawans of the old jedi order would simply hit the switch with the forc second luke was still training to be a jedi. all he had was some files from obi-wons place on tattoin so he had to teach himself and i dont get were people come up with obi-wons spirit teaching him. they only gave him guigence when he truly needed it like when he destroyed the first death star. plus his uncle Owen wouldnt let oby-won teach him as a child because he didnt want him to be like his father.

Grand Moff Gav
luke gets better in the EU maby he's windus level

Sodo
Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
luke gets better in the EU maby he's windus level

In EU, he is at Windu's level. But, I believe we're talking about the movie.

However, you make a good point. In EU, he's at Windu's level, perhaps surpassing him even at one point.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by mossman
Some people think Luke was very well trained and very powerful at the time of ROTJ, but I totally disagree.

What do you mean by power?
What is true "power"?
I think you are missing the whole point of the saga here.
"Wars not make one great"

I could honestly give a shit whether EU says Luke is the strongest ever.

I agree.

The movies clearly paint him out to be a farm boy with little or no real Jedi skills.

Well, if by "the movies" you mean half of ANH, then I might entertain
your unique standpoint.

I mean the kid had to actually throw the rock to close the gate on that monster.

LOL

Any other half way decent 10 year old Padawan would simply have used the force to toss the rock at the control panel. But not douchebag Luke. He had to pick it up, aim, and throw it and hope like hell he hit it.

He's a far more human hero, that is his power.

He's a tool, and Vader could have sliced and diced him in roughly 3 seconds if he wanted to.

I take it you've never watched ROTJ any futher than the Rancor bit then - I recommend you do...
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Never mind what you think 'true' power is; this question is about how powerful a Jedi he is. And the answer is- he's not a very good at all, because his training is only just done at the end of ROTJ.

In terms of potency, Luke can't actually do anything at all over than convince his father to kill the Emperor.

'Wars make not one great' is simply Yoda being glib. Yoda's ability in war is sitll demonstration of his power- he's just saying that isn't the underlying reason, and for all its 'not greatness', war destroyed the Jedi and gave the Sith power.

Indeed, the whole point is that Luke achieves despite his lack of power. But only in that his purpose is to open the doors for someone else to act.

Other than that he is whiny, impulsive and not that bright.

Grand Moff Gav
buut he hs somthing that obi-wan saw perhars it was his father

Lord_Windu
Agreed, ush

mossman
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Never mind what you think 'true' power is; this question is about how powerful a Jedi he is. And the answer is- he's not a very good at all, because his training is only just done at the end of ROTJ.

Well if you put it like that - He beats is old man, the chosen one, into submission.
He is a powerful Jedi.
That is why Palpatine has his eye on him in the first place.

Even if you specify that the question asks how "powerful a Jedi" he is, I think my comment stands - you still must establish what critera you use to decide what constitutes a "powerful Jedi".

If you think being a powerful Jedi is just about owning people, then fair enough.
Luke's record is lost one, won one, and match abandoned.
There are better and worse records in the SW canon.
If you think it is just about saber skills, then, yeah - Lucas has explained how all we see in the OT is old cripples and semi-trained boys fighting.
But I don't believe for a minute that you all think that there is nothing more to being a powerful Jedi than deadliness and efficiency with a saber.


Ultimately, Luke is also everything the Jedi of the PT should have been.
He is the first and only Jedi to be trained by a Yoda who finally had it sussed, thanks to Qui-Gon Jinn.

I'm not saying Luke was the "most powerful" Jedi - that league table is irrelavent and doesn't exist.
But who from the PT could have achieved what Skywalker acheived?
Which other Jedi would have thrown down the sword?
It was not luck - it was what he had learned form Obi and Yoda.

yerssot
him beating the chosen one means absolutely nothing, moss! Being the chosen one doesn't mean he is invunerable, will never die etc. he is good yes, lots of potential but he isn't god, he's just another human

Red Superfly
He's the chosen one, yes, but the force works in mysterious ways.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by mossman
Well if you put it like that - He beats is old man, the chosen one, into submission.
He is a powerful Jedi.
That is why Palpatine has his eye on him in the first place.

Even if you specify that the question asks how "powerful a Jedi" he is, I think my comment stands - you still must establish what critera you use to decide what constitutes a "powerful Jedi".

If you think being a powerful Jedi is just about owning people, then fair enough.
Luke's record is lost one, won one, and match abandoned.
There are better and worse records in the SW canon.
If you think it is just about saber skills, then, yeah - Lucas has explained how all we see in the OT is old cripples and semi-trained boys fighting.
But I don't believe for a minute that you all think that there is nothing more to being a powerful Jedi than deadliness and efficiency with a saber.


Ultimately, Luke is also everything the Jedi of the PT should have been.
He is the first and only Jedi to be trained by a Yoda who finally had it sussed, thanks to Qui-Gon Jinn.

I'm not saying Luke was the "most powerful" Jedi - that league table is irrelavent and doesn't exist.
But who from the PT could have achieved what Skywalker acheived?
Which other Jedi would have thrown down the sword?
It was not luck - it was what he had learned form Obi and Yoda.

Everything the PT Jedi should have been? Are you joking? He is whiny, impatient, and comes close to falling to the Dark Side. He is a troubled and inefficient Jedi, and there is nothing wrong with the PT equivalents! The only Jedi he is better than in that sense is Anakin, which is not saying much!

He has a lot of potential but is only a half-trained boy who ultimate achives one thing in not going quite as bad as his father did. That is not displaying much outright power or, really, THAT much inner strength or wisdom- because he lacks in those.

Such hero worship for Luke is odd. He's a flawed hero who just manages to not turn bad, not a paragon of virtue. Like I say, the dramatic point is that he succeeds despite his failings, unlike Anakin who was consumed by them.

Just about every single Jedi from the PT could have done the same- they didn't have the failings to begin with. Much more boring dramatically, but it is still so.

And as said- beating the Chosen One means nothing in that sense.

yerssot
btw, mossman, you'll have to watch the EpI DVD again, I think it's in one of those 20 little docs where GL says (or something like that):

"This is the hayday, the golden age of the jedi..."
and (and this is not literally, just what he was getting at):
"We've seen crippled men and old machines (yes, in plural for some reason) fight and young boys that learn from these men but we have never seen a full jedi knight in his golden age fight."

so it's clear that when it comes to fighting Luke is rather poor in it

Lord Mader
Only in rotj he is weak but many years after he is powerful and wise

Grand Moff Gav
Yes infact if Luke was a pre-war jedi he would have been on the council,hes more powerful the Kit Fisto and Ki Adi Mundi

ObiJohnKenobi
Originally posted by yodafan
BUT there is one thing, if Sidius is so powerful why didn't he turn on his lightsaber in ROTJ and slice luke into little pieces. He should have sensed that Vader would turn on him, after all even Luke was able to see the future in TESB.

"Your overconfidence is your weakness," said Luke to the Emperor before the fight began on the new Death Star and Yoda says in ESB, "Always in motion is future."

obi-one killer
true the emperor was ove confident and did not expect to be killed that was one of his downfalls.

Grand Moff Gav
his shatterpoint was his trust in vader as said by Mace Windu in the EpIII novel

yerssot
Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
Yes infact if Luke was a pre-war jedi he would have been on the council,hes more powerful the Kit Fisto and Ki Adi Mundi
wow, the council is lousy then

that statement can only be true if he has enough potential and got trained by decent masters (and not cripled ones)... though I have yet to see anything in the movies to convince me he's a strong jedi messed

Grand Moff Gav
Originally posted by yerssot
wow, the council is lousy then

that statement can only be true if he has enough potential and got trained by decent masters (and not cripled ones)... though I have yet to see anything in the movies to convince me he's a strong jedi messed

you wont in the movies but you will in the EU

obiwan633
when luke was born he was given the gift of strenght by the sith lord ruth who was pleased with lukes father for turning to the dark side ,so he gave his son the gift of strenght ,as a thank you

admiral ackbar
oviously if you were a true fan of star wars u would realise that beeing the one who is ment to bring balance to the force, the force is already very strong in luke. that is why he learns the ways of the force so quickly. by posting a thread like this you are only showing your own ignorence.

yerssot
errr... hold the ignorence. Luke isn't the one that brings balance to the force, anakin does it. Luke is just the catalyst to do it.

Originally posted by Grand Moff Gav
you wont in the movies but you will in the EU
yeah, but EU doesn't cut it when compared to movies wink

Kpag3030
Originally posted by Vanquish
I don't know what it is about people misquoting me all the time. For those who can't read very well, this isn't a discussion about whether Luke becomes powerful in NJO or anything like that when he is older. I clearly said:



Some people think Luke was very well trained and very powerful at the time of ROTJ, but I totally disagree. That is what the thread was meant to discuss.

I could honestly give a shit whether EU says Luke is the strongest ever. The movies clearly paint him out to be a farm boy with little or no real Jedi skills. I mean the kid had to actually throw the rock to close the gate on that monster. Any other half way decent 10 year old Padawan would simply have used the force to toss the rock at the control panel. But not douchebag Luke. He had to pick it up, aim, and throw it and hope like hell he hit it.

He's a tool, and Vader could have sliced and diced him in roughly 3 seconds if he wanted to.
I think a major point is getting missed in this thread... I'll give you that his combat training is quite possibly lacking, but in the final Vader fight, Luke doesn't want to hurt his father, and Vader is conflicted over his kid. Each wants to turn the other over to their side. In my opinion, having seen the movie 100 times, both were holding back in that fight. Luke tries to not fight multiple times and is extremely confident the whole time. It isn't until the Emperor provokes Luke that he finally lashes out and takes Vader down. Vader didn't seem to have an answer for this. I'd say, his training was adequate, and the training he did on his own, along with his meditations prepared him for that final battle. Excellent force instincts and a balanced mind... And holds a balance of light and dark within himself. Could he Stand up to Jedi in their prime from the clone wars era? Who knows. He's not as polished, but he is effective.

Kpag3030
Sorry... It's when Vader says he'll turn his sister to the dark side that sets Luke off. Lol. Originally posted by Kpag3030
I think a major point is getting missed in this thread... I'll give you that his combat training is quite possibly lacking, but in the final Vader fight, Luke doesn't want to hurt his father, and Vader is conflicted over his kid. Each wants to turn the other over to their side. In my opinion, having seen the movie 100 times, both were holding back in that fight. Luke tries to not fight multiple times and is extremely confident the whole time. It isn't until the Emperor provokes Luke that he finally lashes out and takes Vader down. Vader didn't seem to have an answer for this. I'd say, his training was adequate, and the training he did on his own, along with his meditations prepared him for that final battle. Excellent force instincts and a balanced mind... And holds a balance of light and dark within himself. Could he Stand up to Jedi in their prime from the clone wars era? Who knows. He's not as polished, but he is effective.

Lord Lucien
If you're hoping for a response, you're 11 years out of luck.

relentless1
Luke would get dummied by any of the PT guys as far as his portrayal in the films is concerned...I just hope he's a serious badass when we see him throw down in ep 8

JediRobin23
Originally posted by Vanquish
Sorry Luke fans, but I just don't see how Luke can be considered a strong Jedi. Sure he has the genes and the potential, but that isn't enough. He was just too poorly trained to be strong at the time of ROTJ. Even Anakin, the chosen one needed to be trained for many years before he became powerful and even after long years of training under one of the best masters, he still lost most of his fights.

Simply because of his incredibly poor training, wouldn't he have to be one of the weakest Jedi ever?

Luke kicked the sh$t out of anakin in ROTJ where anakin was fully trained...

Defeating Vader with minimal training was enough.

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