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It is my opinion that ep 3 will finaly show why the jedi really lost.
They were not as strong in the light side of the force as one would think.
It came to my attention Obi even lets Anikin die when he was begging for help. Contrast that to luke (who saved the day) who through down his weapon and refused to have full vengance against vader. Obi did not show such mercy, and as a result anikin seemingly went full dark side.
To me it seems the council had gone very much legalistic and weren't as in tune with the force. If you take the attitudes of Obi and Yoda from the original trilogy and compare them to the new one you will see a bit of a difference i think. I belive they had learned their lesson and their defeat humbled them.
I think Qui Gon was the only one jedi i have seen in the new trilogy that seemed "fully sumerged" in the force. He doubted nothing and seemed to have the greatest amount of faith and rather was into the force itself than the rules of the coucil. If Maul (who was a supior duelest) was not so lethal and had not killed Qui Gon things might have turned much differntly. Obi trained anikin just as soon as he gained the status as jedi and did it as a promise, not because he was qualified to train such a one as anikin, who (the coucil could see) had issues of fear and the such, and would need a supior Trainer just for the fact of how much sheer potential he had.After killing Qui Gon (who in my opinion would have trained anikin by himself after breaking away from the jedi ((notice the coucil probably would not have let anikin be trained unless Qui Gon had died and you know qui gon was determined totrain him)) after Maul killed Qui Gon the battle was already lost for the Jedi.

Lets face it, the jedi lost because they weren't as intune with the force as they might have liked and they made stupid mistakes all the way around.

sounds good

sounds ok...but the darkside would have been an influence....palps clouds everything...they THINK theyre all good, but they are blinded...

That is a really interesting take, I have many times noticed the contrast between prequel Jedi and the original Jedi. When I heard about what Obi Wan does to Anakin, I couldnt believe it.

luke - "i feel the good in you....you couldnt destroy me before and i dont believe you'll destroy me now'

maybe not exactly as was spoken, but obiwan sure doesnt see no good in vader.....hes just wiped out the jedi.

Obi Wan was protecting padme and annie's unborn children.....he had to leave him for dead...........anywaysI think yoda shoulda went with mace to kill sideous, anakin wouldnt have had the chance to turn....sideous woulda been dead before he arrived! But overconfident were Mace, and Yoda....Yoda saw it in the end......The jedi fell because they were overconfident! Qui-Gon shoulda ghost slapped them all!

Originally posted by SithKiller
Obi Wan was protecting padme and annie's unborn children.....he had to leave him for dead...........anywaysI think yoda shoulda went with mace to kill sideous, anakin wouldnt have had the chance to turn....sideous woulda been dead before he arrived! But overconfident were Mace, and Yoda....Yoda saw it in the end......The jedi fell because they were overconfident! Qui-Gon shoulda ghost slapped them all!

There are allot of reasons for having anikin killed, not just because of padme, but there were also a ton of reasons for Luke to kill vader, so don't forget the comparison. Remember what Vader said about turning Leia to the darkside? That is reason enough in Lukes mind. But he stayed strong in his mercy and his faith their was still hope for anikin. No THAT is light side. When Obi let anikin fall into the lava in ep 3 , sure logicaly it may make sense for him, but really was he using the light side of the force? How would it have turned out if he would have used the same mercy as luke had used in episode 6?
I don't really know if they were overconfident persay. Maybe fool hardy but it seemed to be they were dealing with allot of fear and doubt and confusion if you ask me. Listen carfully to the dialouge, they don't sound like they are trusting as much in the force as you think. Thats why i said the only one in the new trilogy that seemed completley confident and sure in the force was Qui Gon Jin. As a result of him dieing the odds turned to palps for winning in spades.
And yes someone else mentioned that it was also because Palps was able to cloud everyone at the time. This is true! But why was he so easily able to cloud all of these jedi's all at once without blinking? I still contend its because the Jedi's had grown weak in the force.
Also didn't Dooku tell Obi that even Qui Gon knew some good details about what was happening? That doesn't suprise me at all and it goes along with my theory. If anyone knows the exact quote from that scene before the battle in the collusium please quote it for the sake of conversation.

I agree to some extent. But I don't believe it was because the Jedi were "Weak in the force". They still have a tremendous bit of power. What's changed is that, because the Sith were believed to be destroyed (they had been gone for over a thousand years according to Ki-Adi-Mundi), they haven't trained in repeling the dark arts as much because there was apparently no reason to. And because they feared the Dark Side, they didn't want anyone learning about it because somebody might turn just from learning about it. Likewise, they didn't sufficently train them in saber to saber combat for the same reason, it was rare to come across anything but a blaster. This is evident in the end of AOTC when Dooku fights Anakin and Obi-wan. Dooku smacks them because the Jedi have spent more time learning to repel blaster bolts than an enemy lightsaber. Fencing obviously wasn't a strong point for them. Dooku however, had studied fencing and forcused more on combat than other jedi (this is covered in both the AOTC novelization and Labrynth of Evil, which leads into ROTS). This is why he was able to train someone like Grievous to slaughter Jedi with their own weapons. Its like his final insult to the Jedi, showing them that even a non force user, properly trained in saber to saber combat, could defeat even council members.

As for Palpatine's revenge, you have to remember, the Jedi weren't privy to all the info like we as viewers are. They really did have no way of knowing the depth of their emminent defeat. That being said all the more reason to over plan than under plan, but their overconfidence led to very poor planning. But, this scene also holds another massive flaw I see in the Jedi, and thats how they handle their Chosen One. He's supposed to bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith, he's proven he can handle a Sith Lord on his own, he's resisted temptation enough to come tell you who the Sith Lord is, and YOU DON"T TAKE HIM WITH YOU?? When I heard that I kinda saw why Anakin turns, the jedi have never accepted him fully. They hold him at arms length do to their own fear.

In dealing with Palpatine, they needed to bring Anakin, the faith in his abilities which this act would have shown Anakin, would have been enough to keep him on their side. That's all Anakin ever wanted, acceptance and respect. and they ('specially Mace) never tried to do that. They also, as someone else pointed out, needed to wait for Yoda to go with them. I think they rushed into facing Palpatine without first panning a real attack strategy, and secondly, figuring out a way to do it that wouldn't have such terrible repercussions for their order. I think they learned about rushing into facing the Sith unprepared, and that's why yoda was so adamant about Luke not making the same mistake in ESB.

But yes, if they'd waited for Yoda, and had enough faith in their Chosen One to full fill his destiny, they would have prevailed. But instead, Mace was overconfident, and horribly unpreapared. And that wasn't a failing in their connection with the force, it was a failing of their own choices. On a side note, as I pointed out that part of why Anakin was so easy to sway was because the Jedi never fully accepted him, was the reason he couldn't kill Luke. Luke was the first person other than his mother that unconditionally believed in him. That's why he saved him and full filled his destiny. A destiny, the Jedi in ROTS refused to believe he could handle.

And yes, I do believe that had Qui-gon lived to train him, the outcome would have gone very different. Qui-gon would have given him the guidence and encouragement he needed and embraced him as a friend/collegue, something the rest of the Order NEVER did. Obi-wan did his best, but tried to much to change Anakin which Ani in turn viewed as forcing the council's lectures on him, something you could never accuse the likes of Qui-gon Jinn of doing.

Maybe i should be more clear. I don't mean "weak in the force" as in they can't use the jedi mind trick to whatever degree or how well they can wield a lightsaber, i mean it as far as how their decisions reflect the "light side" of the force or not. You mentioned that they were overconfident, this is not a trait by those that are using the light side of the force at that time being. Also how you mentioned the horrendous way they dealt with anikin, surley if they would have tapped into the light side of the force in regards of how to train Anikin they would have done better. You say that they held him at arms lenghth do to their OWN FEAR. yes and fear is of the darkside. Their decisions to not really reflect the light side of the force as much as you think they could. I am only contending that IF THEY DID, things might have been much differnt.I also even to iilustrate what you said further, they did not have the faith in "their chosen one". Certainly that is turning their back on the light side of the force. I believe Qui Gon was an excellent exapmple of following the light side of the force and he would have never turned his back on Anikin and , in my opinion, would have made much sounder decisions, he would have made these decisions through consulting with the force.
I disagree Dooku had the edge over Obi and anakin based soley off of the way he trained over theirs. Surley after a Sith was discovered jedi began to pay more attention to the possibility of a light saber battle. Obi remarks also of how much Anikin trains in the use of the lightsaber. They lost because Dooku is older wiser more trained in genral and stronger in the force. Notice give Anikin a little bit more time and he smokes Dooku with little trouble (thats what i heard from a spoiler) its because he needed to grow in the force and his skills since he is so was so young. By the logic of your argument Maul would have made short work out of Qui Gon and it woudn't have even been a contest, afterall there was no idea at the time sith were around at all and Maul would have the only advantage of training in that regards.
I think you made an interesting point though about another reason Yoda might have been so adiment that Luke go prepared and be ready to face Vader, is because he would still remember how when the Jedi tried to face the emporer how grossly unprepared and overconfident they were in this and how, in the end, it was one of the things that ultimatley lead to their defeat. I think thats a good observation.

No, I don't believe for one moment that the Jedi are flawed in the way you say. The falling Republic paralysed them, the Sity played a good game, and some mistakes weere mad-e but they were not endemcially flawed.

The same applies to Qui-Gon. Yup. he got a lot of things right. But he gots a lot of things wrong also- as GL himself has said.

You don't think it was flawed for Obi to sit and watch as Anikin dies and not help him when he screams for help? Surley if your tapping into the light side of the force you will reach out with mercy. They lost because they turned their back on the light side of the force, simple as that.

Err, no they didn't. Sorry, GL has never said any such thing.

I have not watched the film yet, so I will make better judgment then- but Anakin was evil and it seemed nothing could be done about it. You really don't mess around with the Sith; they have to be killed.

And Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to simply murder someone he had bonded with for over ten years. Plus, Anakin was a Sith now; the Jedi were pretty sure that nothing could be done to bring people back from the Dark Side at the time.

I havn't seen the movie yet either, that doesn'r mean that you can't find out what happens from the Comic and Novel adaptation of episode 3. It shows that Obi has a chance to save him but does not.
The argument that Anikin was evil and had to be killed is nonsense, or once a sith always a sith. Luke certainly did not take that view and ultimatley showed vader mercy and in return vader was redeemed. That i think was very apparent he was using the light side of the force wich is hope and mercy and forgiveness. Obi meley used human reasoning that, "Oh Anikin has been evil latley and my old friend is evil now, lets watch him scream for help and just let him die" That may be logical, but that to me, is not what star wars would represent as walking in the light side of the force. I think Lucas deliberatley made the scene like that to show the contrast between Luke showing mercy at the end of the original trilogy and Obi letting Anikin slip into the lava at the end of the new trilogy thus helping to create the monster Darth Vader.
I like that there seems to be grey area now in the story, its not like Anikin just decided one day he wanted to become an evil sith. Like i heard another person in a post, the council had just as much to do with Anikin going darkside as Palps did at some point. And why is this??? BECASUE THE JEDI WERE NOT WALKING FULL 100 PERCENT IN THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE.

I heard somewhere that Anakin is not screaming for help to Obi Wan . When he is slowly burning he even says "I hate you..." when Obi Wan is leaving but I might have wrong information .

But yes, if they'd waited for Yoda, and had enough faith in their Chosen One to full fill his destiny, they would have prevailed. But instead, Mace was overconfident, and horribly unpreapared. And that wasn't a failing in their connection with the force, it was a failing of their own choices. On a side note, as I pointed out that part of why Anakin was so easy to sway was because the Jedi never fully accepted him, was the reason he couldn't kill Luke. Luke was the first person other than his mother that unconditionally believed in him. That's why he saved him and full filled his destiny. A destiny, the Jedi in ROTS refused to believe he could handle.

Well they did have faith in him but Anakin did not have enough faith in himself to destroy SIDIOUS. That will be his biggest mistake. Also when Anakin had the chance to kill SIDIOUS he didnt. Mace almost killed SIdious but Anakin because he was so desperate to cheat death, he kept the enemy alive and that will screw him up for the rest of his life.

Also Luke wasnt the first person, but the third. Padme believed in the goodness of ANakin all the way to end, the least Anakin couldve done was believed in her when she told him he needed no more power to save her and on Mustafar, when she tells him love will be enough that she doesnt want his power or protection.

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke
Well they did have faith in him but Anakin did not have enough faith in himself to destroy SIDIOUS. That will be his biggest mistake. Also when Anakin had the chance to kill SIDIOUS he didnt. Mace almost killed SIdious but Anakin because he was so desperate to cheat death, he kept the enemy alive and that will screw him up for the rest of his life.

Also Luke wasnt the first person, but the third. Padme believed in the goodness of ANakin all the way to end, the least Anakin couldve done was believed in her when she told him he needed no more power to save her and on Mustafar, when she tells him love will be enough that she doesnt want his power or protection.

Padme believed in him, but didn't support him in the way he needed. She, in his eyes, became just another authority figure telling him what he felt was wrong. now I'm not saying this is right or wrong, its just his perspective on it. And how can you say the Jedi believed in their Chosen one? They didn't even believe he WAS the chosen one when Qui-gon brought Anakin before the council. They only let him in out of respect to Qui-gon. And they NEVER trusted him, Mace even says so in the trailer. And they always say "IF the prophecy is true". They don't believe in him. Personally I think some of that comes from jealousy, that's just an impression I see and I'd love to be able to discuss with Lucas about if that were ever possible.

And Anakin kept Palpatine alive because Palpatine (in his evil wisdom) kept being very supportive of Anakin. He would set things up like recommending Ani for the council, knowing the council would have reservations about it, thus making Palps look good in Ani's eyes and the council look bad. Thats why Ani chose to save Palpatine and not Mace. Palpatine was the father he never had, Mace was just another obsticle to Anakin. And what I'm saying here is how these events look to ANAKIN, not the viewer per se. We understand the depths of whats going on because we know the whole story. But if you were in his position you too would have an extemely difficult decision on your hands. You have on one side Palpatine, who supported you and guided you, telling you what you wanted to hear, but making it so genuine you'd never suspect his plot. On the other, you have Mace, who's more like the parent that never wanted you in the first place. He's never trusted you, he's never really encouraged you, but you're blind to the fact that it might be for your own good, such is the tragedy of youth. That's why he chose Palpatine, I'm not saying its right, I'm saying if you were in his position, it would SEEM right. He did learn the error he commited and righted it, albeit several decades later.

This thread is amazing keep it up guys!

"I heard somewhere that Anakin is not screaming for help to Obi Wan . When he is slowly burning he even says "I hate you..." when Obi Wan is leaving but I might have wrong information ."

Actually Camo he does say this, he says this after Obi refuses to help him before he slips into the lava.

Good input also meph.
I think its pretty safe to say this is what Lucas intended and i think its pretty genius to have real reasons for a villian becoming a villian instead of just they are evil. why? just because. I don't think that works as well as having reasons to the character that really make sense when you think about it. Not that you condone it, but you understand what brought them to that choice ultimatley.

I

I was just discussing this with my fiance today on the way to her mom's, how Lucas did a very good job of setting up how dictators and "evil" people come to be. You don't just wake up one morning and decide to kill your friends. The truth is, evil people think they're right and just or they wouldn't do what they do. A history teacher I had in high school put us through a very eye opening lesson. She held a mock election under the guise of teaching us about democracy, and had two canidates. One was very appealing, had very well thought out reasons for change and solutions to problems. By the end of the election, this canidate won, and ended up being Hitler. The other was Roosevelt and our teacher used their exact election strategies to show us that if some one comes to you with all this confidence, and their solutions to your problems seem really solid and well thought out, you'd be more than willing to go with that thought process, and in the case of Hitler, end up being led down a steadily growing path to a more evil life with out even knowing it. And that's really what happened to Anakin and the Republic, they believed Palpatine and before they knew it, they were the bad guys and they never even realise it until its too late. I think that's one part of Star Wars Lucas more than handled correctly. I just hope Joe Moviegoer can see past their own movie plots long enough to understand the more real world honesty in this portion of the story, and not just be mad cuz Anakin doesn't enjoy and revel in being "bad" rather than commit wrong in the guise of righteousness.

too much thinking...not enough lightsabers

Read:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f4/t331965.html

I totally agree with that post in the other thread in regards to Anakin's fall. Qui-gon would have allowed Anakin his emotions, but taught him to use them, channel them, into some sort of outlet rather than simply tell him to bury them and ignore them. Ignoring emotions only increases stress and anger. Very good post mtryder.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
I totally agree with that post in the other thread in regards to Anakin's fall. Qui-gon would have allowed Anakin his emotions, but taught him to use them, channel them, into some sort of outlet rather than simply tell him to bury them and ignore them. Ignoring emotions only increases stress and anger. Very good post mtryder.

Hatred is also an emotion. I doubt Qui-Gon would allow Anakin to vent his hatred or use it to his advantage.

I have to say Obi Wan is similar to Anikin which is why they always clash. Qui-Gon was more patient. Also in TPM Obi Wan seems jealous that Qui-Gon is very eager to train Anikin.

Originally posted by palpy_666
Hatred is also an emotion. I doubt Qui-Gon would allow Anakin to vent his hatred or use it to his advantage.

No, not vent it, but understand it, accept it, and let go of it.

Obi not jealous of skywalker just felt he was dangerous.....if anyone jealous was Mace! haha

[Own fear.

In dealing with Palpatine, they needed to bring Anakin, the faith in his abilities which this act would have shown Anakin, would have been enough to keep him on their side. That's all Anakin ever wanted, acceptance and respect. and they ('specially Mace) never tried to do that. They also, as someone else pointed out, needed to wait for Yoda to go with them. I think they rushed into facing Palpatine without first panning a real attack strategy, and secondly, figuring out a way to do it that wouldn't have such terrible repercussions for their order. I think they learned about rushing into facing the Sith unprepared, and that's why yoda was so adamant about Luke not making the same mistake in ESB.

Anakin doesn't really care about the whole respect thing although it is on his list. It has been stated he is hungry for power he basically wants to become all powerful E.g a god.

Originally posted by SithKiller
Obi not jealous of skywalker just felt he was dangerous.....if anyone jealous was Mace! haha

Exactly!

First off, Anakin is not even the Chosen One. If you pay enough attention, Kyle Katarn is. He brought balance after Jerec's defeat at the Valley of the Jedi.

2: I saw the movie, so I know what goes on. Anakin wanted to learn how to keep people from dying so he could keep Padme alive. But the pull of the Dark Side and the Lies of Sidious are hard to resist. Anakin kept believing Sidious until the Dark Side consumed him so much he didn't think anymore. His choking of Padme should've woke him up and made him realize who he was, but because of Obi-Wan standing there, he believed Padme betrayed him. But I think it is a bit cold-hearted that Obi-Wan left him there to burn. He claims "You were like a brother, I loved you!" If he were any kind of brother, he would've brought anakin out. If Obi-Wan brought him out, he would've been redeemed earlier. But he became what he fought against.

Originally posted by Tulak Hord
First off, Anakin is not even the Chosen One. If you pay enough attention, Kyle Katarn is. He brought balance after Jerec's defeat at the Valley of the Jedi.

2: I saw the movie, so I know what goes on. Anakin wanted to learn how to keep people from dying so he could keep Padme alive. But the pull of the Dark Side and the Lies of Sidious are hard to resist. Anakin kept believing Sidious until the Dark Side consumed him so much he didn't think anymore. His choking of Padme should've woke him up and made him realize who he was, but because of Obi-Wan standing there, he believed Padme betrayed him. But I think it is a bit cold-hearted that Obi-Wan left him there to burn. He claims "You were like a brother, I loved you!" If he were any kind of brother, he would've brought anakin out. If Obi-Wan brought him out, he would've been redeemed earlier. But he became what he fought against.

Luca said anikin is the chosen one in a interview, i will take the creators word for it thank you

Originally posted by moviejunkie23
Luca said anikin is the chosen one in a interview, i will take the creators word for it thank you


Maybe Lucas doesn't know of everything, but it is said "In the Valley of the Jedi, Kyle Katarn slew Jerec, thus fulfilling an ancient Jedi Prophecy." Not those words exactly, but it's said he fulfilled a prophecy. And even Yoda says they might have misread the prophecy in the movie.

the jedi lost, in my opinion, because they were reactive instead of pro actuve.

I think you made an interesting point though about another reason Yoda might have been so adiment that Luke go prepared and be ready to face Vader, is because he would still remember how when the Jedi tried to face the emporer how grossly unprepared and overconfident they were in this and how, in the end, it was one of the things that ultimatley lead to their defeat. I think thats a good observation.

Luke was going off to face the dark side in order to save the ones he loved.

Annikan turned to the dark side in order to save the one he loved.

i think Yoda saw the connection and feared Luke to make the same mistake his father did, hence his adimentance (I don't even think that is a word.)