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Seems like a good fight to me. I think that Obi-wan would win, but it would be close because the Exile killed several Jedi Masters and Sith Lords.

The Exile...

He killed a few Jedi Masters and three Sith Lords. Including Kreia who as we all know kills Jedi Masters by the dozen with just one attack. To win form that means you have to have some incredible power. Not to mention the years of experience the exile gained in the Mandelorian wars, fighting against far tougher opponents then droids. The Exile would take this one.

ob1 even exile is better hes a ninja

The Exile wins. He's way too tough for Obi-Wan to handle.

The exile... "Dude where's my ship?"

dang, nobody likes my threads

goes and copies and pastes this ten more times.

you are really doing it...

Could you please stop this, Glentract? It's really annoying. Trying to force us into responding to your posts won't help.

Aww. I'm am deeply hurt.

Don't worry, I already did every thread with under five replies.

Not trying to be an ass or anything. You're just flooding the board with old posts.

And its damn annoying

Obi Wan wins in a good fight I would say.

Kenobi SLAUGHTERHOUSE

The Exile, Kenobi has more skill being the master of Soresu, but it's the sole advamtage he has, and that isn't enough when the Exile can analyse and predict everything he'll do, if not outright copy him.

Originally posted by carthage
Kenobi SLAUGHTERHOUSE

Originally posted by AncientPower
The Exile, Kenobi has more skill being the master of Soresu, but it's the sole advamtage he has, and that isn't enough when the Exile can analyse and predict everything he'll do, if not outright copy him.

Kek, like Grievous?

...Oh wait.

.....in what way is there any comparison? The Exile can predict every movement, mimic his technique and make it a stalemate, where Kenobi relies on an opponent who either gets tired quickly or has bad judgement. Neither of those are applicable weaknesses for the Exile, infact exactly the opposite are stated attributes for her.

She's got very minor edges that gives her the win after a very long fight, just typing 'lol' and making fallacious comparisons isn't going to convince me otherwise.

Grievous can do all of the things you mentioned, and he can probably do it better.

Grievous could analyze and adapt to Vaapad, so Mace specifically sent Kenobi because he's minimalist style can't be analyzed and exploited like that. So if Grievous failed to do that I doubt the Exile can without a pocket Kreia on her shoulder.

I think it was also the fact that Kenobi's style was compensating for no weaknesses, and therefore had none.

Exile wins he is way too tuff for kinobe.

Grievous uses programming learned from Dooku to adapt to an opponent's form, that is absolutely not the same thing as being able to predict Kenobi's technique in advance via the Force. You also need to explain how Kenobi's Soresu is going to actually defeat the Exile, given she isn't going to give him the openings his form relies upon.

That isn't even getting down to the Exile's telekinetic ability and defensive strengths.

That's just precognition.

Actually, it's battle precognition.

No, she was trying to point out something that Grievous didn't have. Grievous could also adapt to forms.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Grievous uses programming learned from Dooku to adapt to an opponent's form, that is absolutely not the same thing as being able to predict Kenobi's technique in advance via the Force.

No, it's not the same. Grievous's is better

Analyzing and adapting Vaapad > anything the Exile done.

The Vaapad wank is real. It's just movements, is there any reason it'd be more impressive than copying another form? It's not as if he was able to copy the mental aspects.

Yes there is. The Exile as a jedi had knowledge of all the forms, Grievous had no ****ing idea about Vaapad. Not to mention Windu is far more technically skilled than anyone the Exile ever seen in her life.

Kenobi's Soresu is thousands of years more advanced than what the Exile has experienced, she ain't interpreting shit.

He just shits on her in terms of feats. Beating Grievous, stalemating Knigtfall Vader, and holding his own against Maul are better feats than killing fodder and getting humiliated by Nyriss. She also lacks anyway to break his defense and is probably inferior in the force as well

Why is the Exile not getting stomped by Kenobi a thing?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why is the Exile not getting stomped by Kenobi a thing?

Because she can analyze forms which is equivalent of her being able to beat one of the top 7 duelists ever

Literally every duelist in KOTOR 2 is shit, tbh. Like name one duelist in KOTOR 2 that'd last longer than 20-30 seconds against Kenobi straight up. Meetra gets absolutely hammered.

But that doesn't matter when she can copy. One look, and Meetra is the 7th best lightsaber duelist ever

God help Sidious if she copies him.

Is Meetra the new AMAZO of SW?

I concede.

Originally posted by JKBart
Is Meetra the new AMAZO of SW?

Should make a thread about that.

mmm

The copy argument is ****ing retarded tbh, but the Exile still wins.

Also Zoltan how is Kenobi one of the top 7 duelists in your mind? Yoda, Luke, Mace, Anakin, Krayt, Caedus, Sidious puts him at 8. Add in people like Dooku, Exar Kun, Qel-Droma. Cade and Maul depending on opinion, they're both open to interpretation.... I'm not seeing it mmm

Retarded my ass, she had no experience with the forms that the Masters used and yet she was mastering them mid-combat to a degree that she could surpass their own knowledge and kill them with it. That is the extent to which she can mirror an opponent.

The Masters weren't terrible duelists at all, every council member is stated to be a master lightsaber combatant, Kavar was a famed Jedi Guardian so skilled that even Canderous thought he'd lead the republic in the Mandalorian Wars, until Revan came along, and he isn't even as good a duelist as the other masters Meetra meets, let alone Atris.

But hey make shitty spite replies in return, that's convincing.

The only thing that's shitty is your fanwanking

The only thing shitty is the idea I ever take anything you say with anything but sheer contempt.

The fact you think Meetra can contend with Kenobi in spite of getting Lolstomped by a less skilled duelist is even more contemptible

The fact you lack reading comprehension is the funniest thing yet, Meetra wasn't outskilled by Nyriss at all. Nyriss' fully focused assault, which immediately prior had instantly floored Scourge, an expert swordsman who had high-level mastery of numerous forms, couldn't penetrate Meetra's defenses.

Nyriss had to physically overwhelm Meetra on a nexus stated to prevent Surik from any attempt at meditation or enlightenment, both of which are stated to make her perform better physically.

More to the point, instead of fallacious comparisons with no basis, care to explain how Kenobi is going to actually kill Surik when his Force powers can't defeat her and his form relies on an opponent who has bad judgement or poor stamina, neither of which can be attributed to Meetra Surik?

Something only further highlighted by the fact Meetra herself is a high-level Soresu master with the abilities of both Echani and Battle precognition, allowing her to know exactly what he is going to do before he does it.

So AP, where is the line exactly? If Meetra can just copy Obi Wan's moves to a sufficient extent to beat him, can she copy Anakin's? Yoda's?

And again, Grievous could do that to, and it was explicitly stated that Obi Wan's movements were particularly difficult to replicate. Upon being confronted with this, you punt the discussion from battle precognition to Force precognition, which...um...Obi Wan has too. So you have no reason to think that Meetra holds any particular advantage.

Meanwhile, Obi Wan's soresu is at a high enough level that Dooku concluded he wouldn't be able to break his guard via a duel in the RotS novelization, and has to resort to telekinesis. What has Meetra done? Kill a bunch of random dark jedi? Defeat the oh-so-legendary duelist Traya? Come on now.

Meetra's greatest dueling feat is dividing and conquering at the Trayus academy, which while impressive by no means puts her on Kenobi level.

Kenobi kills her.

The line would be drawn to the extent where Force prowess simply outshines her, Obi-Wan isn't more powerful but replace Obi-Wan with Maul or Anakin and she physically cannot keep up and the skill she had wanes infront of natural lightsaber prodigies like them.

Meetra has never once lost a duel, as in she has never been outskilled, Nyriss physically overpowered her but that was it, in countless battles she hasn't once lost in a lightsaber contest.

This is where it gets really gripey for me though, sure Obi-Wan Kenobi and co. are legendary all-time greats, but Revan and Surik are legendary as well and for good reason. Why should we assume that the two of them get 'slaughterhoused' in any contest with PT duelists? What is it with the era bias?

Why can't we simply make a direct comparison between the two instead of shitting on anybody not PT era?

And I get called retarded for not conforming to this singular view that exposure = win.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The line would be drawn to the extent where Force prowess simply outshines her,

So nobody can possibly beat her through bladework?



Natural lightsaber prodigies? Obi Wan seems to have that too, according to plenty of people such as Windu, Dooku, etc. Dooku didn't even think he could penetrate his defenses via bladework.




Being physically overpowered kinda matters, since overpowering Kenobi is the only realistic shot she'd have; it's not like she can penetrate his soresu via bladework if Dooku couldn't.



It's not an era bias, it's

a) its being referenced as the Jedi's prime
b) the incredibly concentration of top-tier combatants (there was maybe one Palpatine tier combatant in 25,000 years, and then like several in just one hundred ).
c) Obi Wan just having better feats and accolades



When comparing duelists between eras, you sort of have to power-scale, which requires matching eras.



Exposure unto itself doesn't guarantee a win, but someone piling up feats and accolades does get the benefit of the doubt over someone who has basically nothing, just probalistically speaking. Like a random guy I pass could be a nobel prize winner, but I'd bet not.

Yes but where do you draw the line on a character legendary for their abilities and feats?

Meetra butchering three legions of elite Sith, back-to-back, whom in turn had killed tens of thousands of Jedi, Jedi who accordingly are the most battle-hardened and skilled in the history of the order. These Sith even had ranks and weapons gifted to them depending on how many Jedi they slew in personal combat. It is easily one of the single best series of feats of any Jedi in the mythos.

But apparently one bad physical display on a dark side nexus after a really shitty week turns her into an average Jedi who gets slapped around by any marginally skilled PT master?

It's not even funny considering she drastically out-performs a guy like Scourge, who turns out to be an equal for the Hero of Tython in SWTOR, with a disadvantageous environment going against her.

Like what exactly is the logic because I'm seeing a total lack of any.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Meetra's greatest dueling feat is dividing and conquering at the Trayus academy, which while impressive by no means puts her on Kenobi level.

Kenobi kills her.

Only one wing of the academy allowed such an advantage:





The rest of the Academy was packed:







Again, these are the same Sith that wiped out tens of thousands of Jedi:



These Jedi are stated to be the best on the battlefield bar none:





These Sith are stated to have increased their abilities beyond the aforementioned trained:



The Sith assassins were specialized in practical ways of killing Jedi directly:



The Sith Masterblades are stated to have gained their weapons by killing at least ten lightsaber weilding Jedi:



This is the level these Sith are at and yet the Exile is killing them by the legion, inbetween killing Atris, Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion and Darth Traya whom are stated to be essentially ultra-powerful dark side powerhouses:





The Exile is not however an average being, she's a destructive powerhouse:



The idea she's getting 'slaughterhoused' by Obi-Wan is frankly comical.

I like how you still argue for there being "tens of thousands of Jedi," being killed by these people.

It's a retcon of a statement by Kreia, reinforced by other SWTOR media at that.

You wouldn't mind providing that source then.

"Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands."

- Revan

Another point towards Drew's stupidity.

The logic isn't too stretched, the Jedi during the Conclave on Deneba numbered around 10,000, which is stated to be almost the entire order. Then after the Great Sith War ended, the Jedi had four decades of rapid regrowth and restructure where they entered their prime.

The Jedi Civil War numbers aren't given properly but the number of Revanchists at Malachor V are apparently in the thousands, obviously the Revanchists don't make up the entire Jedi order which is much larger in number.

10,000-20,000 Jedi is hardly beyond belief, Nihilus wiping out Katarr can make up much of that.

Yet Traya said barely a hundred Jedi remained after the war, so she was just off by several thousand?

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm not seeing it mmm

Cool. And I'm not seeing how Caedus, Krayt, Cade, Ulic, Exar, or Maul is better than him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet Traya said barely a hundred Jedi remained after the war, so she was just off by several thousand?

What Trays says is not infallible, she may only be referring to openly active Jedi of the order, not the many fence sitters.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Cool. And I'm not seeing how Caedus, Krayt, Cade, Ulic, Exar, or Maul is better than him.



You've fallen far.

Originally posted by Selenial


You've fallen far. https://media.giphy.com/media/u9e7fk2rL5njy/giphy.gif

Originally posted by AncientPower
Retarded my ass, she had no experience with the forms that the Masters used and yet she was mastering them mid-combat to a degree that she could surpass their own knowledge and kill them with it. That is the extent to which she can mirror an opponent.

That's quite a leap. She mirrored their forms, yes. She beat them with their own forms, yes. That does not mean she surpassed their own knowledge, an argument that frankly makes no sense if you actually put it into context. I do not deny that she can learn and utilize styles mid combat, I've argued that many times before, but she certainly doesn't become better at the styles than the people who used them. In all likelihood, she beat them through superior physicality and adaptability, combined with her battle and Echani precognition, and literally every other advantage she had over them.

Here she won't be suddenly becoming some Godlike Soresu practitioner, able to beat Kenobi with his own form. At best she'll close the gap someway in that form, and have to use her vast advantages in every other form to try and take a win. You still have to argue her physical and force edge, she doesn't surpass her opponent's knowledge in anything. That makes less than no sense.

Hasn't she already mastered Soresu? With the Masters, she learned the form mid-combat to an apparantly fairly high degree. If she's already at a decent level with Soresu, she'd have less to acquire so if she's able to learn a similar amount as she did with the Masters, theoretically she could reach near Kenobi's level.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Cool. And I'm not seeing how Caedus, Krayt, Cade, Ulic, Exar, or Maul is better than him. Tbh.Originally posted by AncientPower
What Trays says is not infallible, she may only be referring to openly active Jedi of the order, not the many fence sitters. That numbered in the tens of thousands?Originally posted by Nephthys
Hasn't she already mastered Soresu? With the Masters, she learned the form mid-combat to an apparantly fairly high degree. If she's already at a decent level with Soresu, she'd have less to acquire so if she's able to learn a similar amount as she did with the Masters, theoretically she could reach near Kenobi's level. Cancer, in a word.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Tbh.

The only people in that list definitively above Kenobi IMO are Krayt, Caedus and Kun. The rest can be argued as pretty much on Kenobi's level, hence why I don't agree with saying Kenobi's solidly above them.

Krayt being the one who ate Ventress/Maul level duelists for breakfast, Caedus and Kun I'm pretty sure you need no introduction to

Not sure above Krayt, Caedus or Kun being above Kenobi tbh. Kenobi was a perfect master of Soresu at the height of lightsaber combat, considered the best, and has been compared and compares to the likes of Yoda, Windu, Anakin and Dooku. I would say he's only slightly beneath them, and almost certainly above everyone else you listed bar perhaps Maul, in terms of sheer saber mastery.

The adapting argument is rather dumb, otherwise Nord would be the greatest Hunter ever due to his nigh adapability while being hunted by other BHs and able to turn their own tactics against them and at a superior form.

The Rebel Troopers would be bar none the greatest fighting force in the galaxy, since they can macgyver *** out of their asses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands."

- Revan

Another point towards Drew's stupidity.
Just like the ST are rogue Jedi who broke off from the order after the Jedi Civil War? Seems legit.

Kenobi has shown weakness to opponents who can adapt, like MagnaGuards

How the heck can Kun be superior duelist to Obi-Wan, if he's already clearly inferior to Revan? Revan and Kun share the same style of hype, same style of accolades, very similar demonstrations of their skill, duels that share similar impressive circumstances... but Revan's are also just clearly better which is easy to judge based on the similarities.

Kun can't be above Obi-Wan if Revan isn't too; and both of them aren't above Obi-Wan tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not sure above Krayt, Caedus or Kun being above Kenobi tbh. Kenobi was a perfect master of Soresu at the height of lightsaber combat, considered the best,

Cool. Kas'im was also called "perfect" in every form. Kas'im > Kenobi confirmed, that bumps him down to - what is it now - 12?

Oh, and who does that even place him above, as a Soresu wielder? Luminara Unduli and Coleman Trebor? Cool. If Dooku didn't exist, Shaak Ti would be the greatest Makashi user alive, Shaak > Maul now too?



So has Shaak Ti. Doesn't mean they're all perfect parallels as duelists.



Slightly beneath them in terms of technical skill, perhaps. Technical skill is not the singular factor in how good of a duelist you are, though.

You forgot Sel. Even Luminara would shit on Kas'im due to mastering a single form a thousand years after Kas'im lived.

Kek. Kun was better than legendary duelist like Vodo. Kenobi was better than Shaak, Fisto, Plo, Agen, Saesee, Ventress, Grievous, Vos, Qui-Gon, Sora, Depa.

Hmm, yeah Kun seems better.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kek. Kun was better than legendary duelist like Vodo. Kenobi was better than Shaak, Fisto, Plo, Agen, Saesee, Ventress, Grievous, Vos, Qui-Gon, Sora, Depa.

Hmm, yeah Kun seems better.

orite.

more explored era means everyone's better.

i forgot.

an hero tiem. very apologies. much sorry.

Yeah that totally was the point.

Kun stompped one of the best lightsabe duelists ever. Kenobi is better than someone who is better than someone who is better than someone who was said to be one of the best ever.

Taking it even further Maul stomped one of the best ever before TPM. So what the **** ever did Kun do to make him better than Kenobi?

Originally posted by Selenial
Cool. Kas'im was also called "perfect" in every form. Kas'im > Kenobi confirmed, that bumps him down to - what is it now - 12?

Oh, and who does that even place him above, as a Soresu wielder? Luminara Unduli and Coleman Trebor? Cool. If Dooku didn't exist, Shaak Ti would be the greatest Makashi user alive, Shaak > Maul now too? Right... because not only Mace Windu's opinion, but his recommendation based on that opinion, into a lethal situation that even he couldn't overcome, is of equal in value to PoD Bane's off-hand speculations when getting his shit pushed in. And the forms remained static over the gap between these claims. Context dear.

And because Kenobi doing better than Windu did against Grievous (and better than it's implied Yoda would), contending equally with Anakin in a marathon engagement, baffling Dooku is his saber mastery, and repeatedly stalemating Maul, doesn't absolutely put him on level with the greatest duelists of the other seven forms. Instead Soresu is just an underperforming style. Right?

Frankly I'm a little non-plussed as to why an appreciation of Kenobi's abilities is inciting such backlash. She's been mentioned in the same sentence as Dooku, and that's it, that doesn't at all compare to Kenobi's praise and accomplishments.Well that's what I'm assessing here, and I think its what's relevant to this debate in regards to Surik interpreting and matching that skill, if we are going to include Force augmentative ability and what not Revan should be above a lot of people you listed.Originally posted by Selenial
orite.

more explored era means everyone's better.

i forgot.

an hero tiem. very apologies. much sorry. I kind help but find this ironic considering your attempt to lowball Kenobi as the best Soresu master in the order the basis that we don't know much about its practitioners.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You forgot Sel. Even Luminara would shit on Kas'im due to mastering a single form a thousand years after Kas'im lived. Christ, do I need to explain this to you again?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kun stompped one of the best lightsabe duelists ever. Kenobi is better than someone who is better than someone who is better than someone who was said to be one of the best ever.

Taking it even further Maul stomped one of the best ever before TPM. So what the **** ever did Kun do to make him better than Kenobi?

https://33.media.tumblr.com/7ac7be143d6c5faa78691ac3170f23f1/tumblr_inline_n6zkgfxh2F1syx0wq.gif

> mfw can't figure out if someone's taking the piss out of their own argument or actually being serious.

Originally posted by Selenial
https://33.media.tumblr.com/7ac7be143d6c5faa78691ac3170f23f1/tumblr_inline_n6zkgfxh2F1syx0wq.gif

> mfw can't figure out if someone's taking the piss out of their own argument or actually being serious.

I take it Kun didn't actually done anything better. Thanks.

The rage is real in this thread, and all because of a suggestion that Kenobi might be better than some other people.

paine
agony
despiur

Personally I think that even if Kenobi is up to their level of skill, he's pretty out of his depth when it comes to power and augmentation with the top tiers being discussed. Caedus, Kun, Plagueis and Krayt would kick his ass in a duel even if it isn't through merit of their technical skills.

How do people feel about RotS Kenobi vs Peak Vader? Marek? Maybe even TFU Shaak Ti? Ahsoka?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And because Kenobi doing better than Windu did against Grievous (and better than it's implied Yoda would), contending equally with Anakin in a marathon engagement, baffling Dooku is his saber mastery, and repeatedly stalemating Maul, doesn't absolutely put him on level with the greatest duelists of the other seven forms. Instead Soresu is just an underperforming style. Right?

Because Soresu and Shii-Cho are the perfect counters to Grievous? Or are we going to start arguing that Kit Fisto is also Windu/Yoda level because he schooled Grievous with literal ease? Contending with a reckless, fatigued and mentally conflicted Anakin, yes. I also question how being surprised that someone's learned another form is proof that they're some God with a blade, let alone why you're using quotes that have been massively contradicted in other canon sources.

This has nothing to do with Soresu as a style, merely that being the best Soresu wielder does not put one on par with the best Juyo wielder, or the best Makashi duelist. That's just not how it works


If by appreciation, you mean baseless and frankly poorly argued wank, sure.



Not necessarily, if we're just talking accolades (which is what you brought up) they're not really that different.



Forgive me for saying this, but I don't give a shit what you're assessing? We're discussing the greatest duelists in the mythos, that cannot happen without including every physical and tactical attribute those individuals possess. Solid moving of the goalposts here Beni.



We know a lot about its practitioners, actually. The greatest Duelists of the Jedi are, in no particular order: Ki Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Yoda, Windu, Anakin, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Obi Wan Kenobi, Eeth Koth, Saesee Tiin, Plo Koon and more.

Literally none of them wielded Soresu as their primary form. Kenobi being the best practitioner does not solidify him in duelist rankings in the way you suggested, because we know that no other high class duelist is a Soresu practitioner. If he was called the greatest practitioner of Ataru, at least that places him above people like Qui Gon, Shaak Ti and Yoda, who wield it as their primary forms.

That's why being the best Soresu practitioner isn't as good of a quote as saying someone's the best Juyo practitioner. One puts you above Mace Windu, the other puts you above Coleman Trebor

To be fair Sel, Coleman wasn't really lacking bladework given he waded through battalions of droids and Geo warriors, that also said it's also weird how he was killed by Jango seeing as he had no issue deflecting the first 2 bolts sent at him and the afore mentioned feat. His death doesn't really make sense tbh.

And the arguments Sel put forward for her candidates are still literally 0.

I agree that Kenobi probably isn't the 7th best swordsman ever, but that's sort of irrelevant when going up against Meetra.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And the arguments Sel put forward for her candidates are still literally 0.

Because that is irrelevant to this thread. Your baseless and terribly argued Kenobi wank isn't

There was nothing to argue since all you did was puke out two buckets of salt.

Duelists I put above Kenobi include:

Luke
Sidious
Caedus
Krayt
Windu
Dooku
Anakin
Plagueis
Exar Kun (?)

In no particular order. The rest of the duelists in SW lore like Jaina, Arcann, Ulic, Maul, etc should be debatable.

Same here except Kun.

Yeah, I question marked Kun depending on how much you think he improved after stalemating Ulic.

Do you include augmentation and precog?

Yes.

Well I don't.

Well this isn't a raw skill only thread, is it?

Not a top 7 duelist thread either.

Since Meetra can't copy augmentation it's irrelevant to the discussion where this abomination came from.

Well then why'd you bring it up?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well then why'd you bring it up?

I didn't, I just made note of it. Like how people say Luke is the most powerful force user when there's a thread about him.

It wasn't an issue until Sel's tantrum.

Bringing it up is legit the same thing as making note of it.

That nitpick aside, goddamn it Sel

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I didn't, I just made note of it. Like how people say Luke is the most powerful force user when there's a thread about him.

It wasn't an issue until Sel's tantrum.

Nah. This is just a pretty phenomenal abuse of moving the goalposts

I asked you why you thought he was top 7. You said he's a better duelist than those I mentioned. So either you think augmentation is entirely irrelevant to someone's skill as a duelist, or you were attempting to rank individuals while ignoring their strength/speed/durability/stamina etc, which is literally impossible and nothing more than unfounded opinion

I perceive Meetra Surik as an extremely skilled and talented duelist. However, she needs more then her dueling skills to overwhelm Obi-Wan Kenobi. She might have advantage in the aspect of command of the Force.

no

Originally posted by Selenial
Because Soresu and Shii-Cho are the perfect counters to Grievous? Or are we going to start arguing that Kit Fisto is also Windu/Yoda level because he schooled Grievous with literal ease? Shii-Cho is a perfect counter to Grievous how? Regardless your mixing continuities here, Grievous is not as lethal in Canon as he is in Legends so we can't assume Kit Fisto would so easily defeat Legends Grievous when Windu failed, who believed even Yoda wasn't up it. Or alternatively if you want to reconcile the continuities, you accept that Grievous inordinately improved.Who nonetheless possessed a vast Force augmentative advantage over him, to the point at which he almost broke his bones with his grip, and despite Kenobi only being fully committed to killing Anakin half way through the engagement. It only served to level the playing field.He wasn't just surprised, rather met with "a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike", though of course why being comparable to the Count makes you anything resembling a "God with the blade" is beyond me. I assume you're being facetious.Oh yes, I imagine.
Not it doesn't, but it's baseless to slight it on the notion that its apparently lacking in talent.Lmao.I brought up accomplishments as well as accolades, that's what I meant when I said he's been compared and compares. As in it's been stated as well as demonstrated in practice.

That said, no, being mentioned in the same sentence as an individual, is not the same as being established as a peer in a direct comparison.Lol what? You have a different viewpoint from me (which you nowhere specified) on what constitutes duelling ability, one you assume everyone else shares, therefore I'm moving the goalposts? More like your establishing criteria half way into a discussion to skew it in your favour.

Regardless I disagree, while your skill as a duellist is certainly amplified by Force augmentation, precognition etc. its fundamentally a matter of technique. Unless we are going to suggest Darth Sidious' ability to blitz the B-Team makes him an infinitely greater duellist. Or that Revan is a better duelist than Kenobi because he'd probably beat him in sabers.

Personally I make a distinction between strict duelling talent, and overall combative ability. And in that regard I put Kenobi where I put him. And of course in the contexts in which this is being discussed, only technique is relevant - so if anyone's moving the goalposts that would be you. Oh is that the case? Do you have a source for this or did you pull that list out of your ass head? I assume the latter seeing as you've missed some significant names and included a view rather dubious ones, but more importantly because I know no such list exists.

Fact is unless you possess detailed information on all 10,000 Jedi in the Order, you cannot possibly claim with any level of objectivity to know who all the greatest duellists of the Jedi are. So no, for all we know there could be dozens of Soresu users you have overlooked, in fact it's probably likely seeing as it was one of the most prominent forms at the time.As far as power scaling is concerned sure, but in terms of praise and recognition? Its equal, because Soresu is not an underperforming style in comparison to Juyo, or any other form.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Shii-Cho is a perfect counter to Grievous how? Regardless your mixing continuities here, Grievous is not as lethal in Canon as he is in Legends so we can't assume Kit Fisto would so easily defeat Legends Grievous when Windu failed, who believed even Yoda wasn't up it. Or alternatively if you want to reconcile the continuities, you accept that Grievous inordinately improved.
It happened in canon.



Yes... it served to level the playing field. That's exactly what I'm saying?



You're kind of ignoring the fact that quote comes in before Dooku realises Kenobi is using Soresu. No competent bladesman would attack like that after an opponent surprisingly changes styles, especially not with Skywalker next to him. It's an impressive feat, don't mistake me, but it doesn't put him above Dooku, since Dooku couldn't extend himself when Anakin was there.



Yes, the fact they fought numerous times during the Clone Wars.



Where did I imply that?



Taking out force augmentation is clinically retarded. How do you compare Ataru and Soresu duelists then? Ataru duelists entirely rely on force augmentation for their speed, compare them without it and you have absolutely no measuring sticks whatsoever. How about Djem So? With no force augmentation, none of Anakin's feats mean diddly squat, because he cannot accomplish them without his Force Valor. You can't compare Kenobi and Skywalker as duelists then, simply because you don't have any capable methods of doing it.

What's more, technical skill is ****ing irrelevant in every debate ever. Dueling ability with force augmentation isn't.



Yes, Sidious' speed makes him infinitely better as a duelist. Glad you're catching on here

Because that's the only way this is actually relevant.



Yes, combative ability includes alter applications of the force.



I was merely listing off every Jedi I know has an accolade placing them as the best duelists in the order. I know I missed some, that's why I said and others.



So what you're saying is every quote about Jedi being the top duelists in the order, or every quote saying the Council Members are the most skilled etc. is irrelevant because there's a no named Jedi we've never seen or heard of that could be better than them?



Zoltan's entire argument was power scaling. That was my entire ****ing point. Welcome to the party.

Edit: Oh and there are actually a lot of quotes putting Juyo above the other forms.

Originally posted by Selenial
Taking out force augmentation is clinically retarded. How do you compare Ataru and Soresu duelists then? Ataru duelists entirely rely on force augmentation for their speed, compare them without it and you have absolutely no measuring sticks whatsoever. How about Djem So? With no force augmentation, none of Anakin's feats mean diddly squat, because he cannot accomplish them without his Force Valor. You can't compare Kenobi and Skywalker as duelists then, simply because you don't have any capable methods of doing it.

What's more, technical skill is ****ing irrelevant in every debate ever. Dueling ability with force augmentation isn't.

That's pretty rich coming from someone who participated in the making of 3 such a list

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
That's pretty rich coming from someone who participated in the making of 3 such a list

Three years ago. How relevant

Yeah and Star Wars changed so much in the last 3 years that ranking technical skill went from something doable to clinically retarded...

That Dooku fight in the book massively contradicts the movie. Looking at the fight, I'm not sure Dooku actually attacks Obi-Wan a single time in sabers for him to demonstrate his "defensive velocity".

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah and Star Wars changed so much in the last 3 years that ranking technical skill went from something doable to clinically retarded...

You're obviously not understanding how new to, and terrible at, Star Wars debating I was in 2013.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Shii-Cho is a perfect counter to Grievous how? Regardless your mixing continuities here, Grievous is not as lethal in Canon as he is in Legends so we can't assume Kit Fisto would so easily defeat Legends Grievous when Windu failed, who believed even Yoda wasn't up it.

Eh Beni, TCW is also apart of Legends too...soo..