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Something I read in some feminist psychology.

No wonder...

It has some validity. Especially in reference to the Colombine shootings.

Insecurity with masculinity leads to violent acts more than masculinity itself.

Nobody expects you to not get pissed off and fight when the occasion calls for it, but there's not really a truer saying than "It takes a bigger man to walk away."

The amount of fights I've seen started because the guy/s are worried about how they'll look if they don't, is astounding.

You can be a man without being violent or what not. So it's only guys who are insecure and dumb that view fighting as a masculine thing.

-AC

The above is actually the argument feminists are arguing.

Cant fighting over Masculintity be the same as fighting over a women? So you could argue Women are the root of all violence.. or at least most of it. Since many fights I have seen have been over a girl. Both guys want to seem like the most masculine one in front of the girl or whatever.. Ill try to explain it better later.

Anything said by feminists automatically become null and void. I don't care if they say "all humans breath air", the fact that they are feminists makes them wrong, somehow.

No, not really what they are arguing is that boys are programmed to do violence. Encouraged more likely. They are socially constructed by the following tenets:

The antifeminine element
Success element
Aggressive element
Sexual element
Self-Reliant element

Originally posted by BackFire
Anything said by feminists automatically become null and void. I don't care if they say "all humans breath air", the fact that they are feminists makes them wrong, somehow.

I'm not sure what you're saying exactly.

I don't care, the fact that a femnist said it makes it incorrect. Doesn't matter how much sense it makes, if a feminist says it, it is wrong.

Oh. Okay. So you think all femiists are wrong. No prob.

Originally posted by Draco69
Oh. Okay. So you think all femiists are wrong. No prob.

Precisely

Originally posted by BackFire
I don't care, the fact that a femnist said it makes it incorrect. Doesn't matter how much sense it makes, if a feminist says it, it is wrong. agreed

Originally posted by BackFire
I don't care, the fact that a femnist said it makes it incorrect. Doesn't matter how much sense it makes, if a feminist says it, it is wrong.

Hear! Hear! Feminists eat carpet.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
Hear! Hear! Feminists eat carpet.

I dont trust feminist writings...theyre always biased...

its not masculinity.... it has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles. Guys are supposed to be masculine, which is a characteristic of the male gender role in America... There are plenty of violent females.

it does have everything to do however, with body chemistry. Testosterone and adrenaline are big factors in any violent act. Although there is more testosterone in the male body, it is present (in different levels) in the female body, which can cause aggressive behavior. The adrenaline is in male and female, and is a natural defense system. When a person is in a confrontational situation, adrenaline causes a fight or flight reaction, which is a basic instinct in any human or animal, male or female. It's natural and uncontrollable.

The medula oblongata is one of the most important regions of the brain, and it controls all of the most basic organ and muscle functions, as well as the entire nervous system (which is where aggressive tendancies originate).
The M.O region is located at the back and base of the brain, connects to the spinal cord, and includes everything except the cerebellum (which controls balance and coordination) and the pons. Most of the brain nerves are present here.
The M.O adjusts the heart and respitory rate as necessary, which are key factors in a confrontation situation. Animals with an enlarged M.O are scientifically proven to be much more aggressive than other animals.

Certain types of over the counter and prescription medications, including anti-histamines found in nearly all allergy and cold medicines(suprisingly) and chemicals in anti-seizure medication have been proven to cause aggressive behavior.
There are also mental conditions that cause this type of behavior. ADHD, Autism, Epilepsy/mental retardation, and children who are suffering from or have recovered from brain trauma or brain infections are all known to have aggressive behavior.

Lead poisoning, as well as iron and deficiency anemia, prenatal exposure to cigarettes, alcohol, and drugs, are all well known-causes.

I'm not even going to get into the effects of the enviornment in which the person lives. It would take forever.
But there is a phrase/theory that was originally coined by early Sociologists, but is now synonymous with the Scientology religion...which states "man is a product of his enviornment".
This basically means that where you live affects your behavior. You see drug dealers in rough neighborhoods, because that is what they were exposed to growing up, and that is what they learned because of it. Sexual abusers were more often than not abused during their childhood. These are just a few examples, you can look up more if you want.

Whew! So, as proven by medical experts NOT FEMINISTS, aggressive behavior is caused by chemical imbalances, natural functioning, and enviorment....NOT GENDER!!!


b!tches...

That's what I meant. Sorry for confusion. The socially constructed gender role of masculinity. That's what I meant. Masculinity differs with each culture.

Originally posted by Draco69
That's what I meant. Sorry for confusion. The socially constructed gender role of masculinity. That's what I meant. Masculinity differs with each culture.

youre wrong. stop defending feminists. theyre wrong too.
the "socially constructed gender role of masculinity" has pretty much nothing to do with it.

even when guys fight, one will back off because he knows he'll get beat. that is animalistic not masculine. watch animals fight, one eventually gives up or backs down so they dont die.

Even if the fight is over a girl, it is being controlled by the sex drive... or alcohol....
there isnt a guy that says lets fight because society thinks i should. the guy says lets fight because i want to get laid later. its also animalistic. animals do this in the wild too.

I'm not defending feminists. I just find some of their ideas intriguing.

Yeah. "MEN ARE THE DEVIL" is really intriguing.

That was the old feminists. I read up on the new mainstream feminists for psychology class.

And "MEN ARE THE DEVIL" is more eye-catching then "The gender role of masculinity causes boys to think violence is ok for them" Those were just the extremists. And people only pay attention to the extremists. Like with Muslims.

you have no idea what you are talking about. seriously.... just stop.
listening to feminists is like watching a 24 hour news channel. they all have personal agendas and all the material you hear is biased

I'm not advocating anything. Period. I'm just introducing new ideas to this forum for people to discuss. I personally disagree with some of things feminisst say however I am open-minded to what they have to say. That's what being an intellectual is all about.

yeah and being intellectual also involves knowing FACTS, not just listening to what some gender-based political group has to say.

so cut the "open minded" "intellectual" crap... and dont all of a sudden retract previous statements because youve been proven wrong

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
yeah and being intellectual also involves knowing FACTS, not just listening to what some gender-based political group has to say.

so cut the "open minded" "intellectual" crap... and dont all of a sudden retract previous statements because youve been proven wrong

Wow. You're in b***y mood tonight. If you read ANYTHING I wrote. I was not supporting their arguements, rather I was correcting people on what their arguements really were. Including yours.

And for goodness sake, I'm a guy. Why would I be a feminist?


Take a chill pill.

lol im not in a bitchy mood... im actually always this argumentative...
people tell me i should be a lawyer.

But do NOT think for two seconds that you are correcting MY argument. I know what it is, and I dont need corrections. Just because you read a couple of feminist articles, does not make you an expert on everyones opinions.

lol and youd be suprised how many GUY feminists there are...theyve converted a lot of people suprisingly.

Seems like you are. You must REALLY hate feminists.

No offense, but I really don't see you doing law. There's a difference between argumentative and outright ignorance. Part of being a lawyer is defining a point of the opposing side's arguement and counteracting it. Which you failed to do since I wasn't arguing ANYTHING.

Guy feminists are becoming a common occurance. But not to the extremes you may believe it to be.


And honey without feminists you wouldn't be able to become a lawyer at all.

Originally posted by Draco69
Seems like you are. You must REALLY hate feminists.

No offense, but I really don't see you doing law. There's a difference between argumentative and outright ignorance. Part of being a lawyer is defining a point of the opposing side's arguement and counteracting it. Which you failed to do since I wasn't arguing ANYTHING.

Guy feminists are becoming a common occurance. But not to the extremes you may believe it to be.


And honey without feminists you wouldn't be able to become a lawyer at all.


I dont like feminists. Good job.

Do not under any circumstances accuse me of being ignorant. People like to throw that word around entirely too much, especially when theyre attempting to "counteract" someones opinion, and list of facts proving that someone else's article is WRONG.

And if men hadn't been so forceful in their theories that they were better than us, then feminists wouldnt even exist. Feminists aren't even necessary, and in my opinion never were. And feminists arent the only group of people responsible for more jobs for women. People who believe in equal rights all across the board are responsible. All they did were half assed public suicides and bra burning protests


But this is about the material itself in the article that you originally posted about..... the material that was proven WRONG by modern medicine.... so feminists have absolutely no say in what they believe causes aggressiveness. period. maybe if they had pushed for something like that 20 years ago, it might have made sense. but only because no one knew any better

Compliment taken.

Which you didn't do because I wasn't arguing anything. I was merely proving information. Which you failed to notice. Or was ignorant to notice. Either way really.

So because men believed they were superior to women, feminists would never existed, however they were still not needed to promote women's rights? Honey I don't know what history book you've been reading but without feminists groups (particularly in the 1920's) you would still be a second-class citizen. You wouldn't be able to vote. Or get a decent paying job. Or even be on this message board even. Hell if feminists never existed, you would be stuck doing the dishes and folding clothing instead of voicing your opinions on a message board.

Originally posted by Draco69
Compliment taken.

Which you didn't do because I wasn't arguing anything. I was merely proving information. Which you failed to notice. Or was ignorant to notice. Either way really.

So because men believed they were superior to women, feminists would never existed, however they were still not needed to promote women's rights? Honey I don't know what history book you've been reading but without feminists groups (particularly in the 1920's) you would still be a second-class citizen. You wouldn't be able to vote. Or get a decent paying job. Or even be on this message board even. Hell if feminists never existed, you would be stuck doing the dishes and folding clothing instead of voicing your opinions on a message board.


Are you seriously retarded or something? I am proving the feminist theory on aggressive behavior wrong. I honestly dont care what you defend or dont defend. And i dont know what history book YOURE reading... but it sounds like the pop up ones..... feminist groups were NOT the only ones that advocated womens rights. So dont get all preachy with me, because I personally do not believe that feminists are important in any way.


and seriously...stop throwing the word ignorant around. you sound like an idiot

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
I dont like feminists. Good job.
But this is about the material itself in the article that you originally posted about..... the material that was proven WRONG by modern medicine.... so feminists have absolutely no say in what they believe causes aggressiveness. period. maybe if they had pushed for something like that 20 years ago, it might have made sense. but only because no one knew any better

What article. I didn't post any article. Oooookay.


And honey you're still referring to "medieval time" feminist talk. Which is not what I wanted people to discuss. I wanted to talk about the psychology and sociology that feminists imply to masculinity. Which you are obviously ignorant about.

I even posted:

"
No, not really what they are arguing is that boys are programmed to do violence. Encouraged more likely. They are socially constructed by the following tenets:

The antifeminine element
Success element
Aggressive element
Sexual element
Self-Reliant element
"

Read up on modern day feminist psychology and sociology. THEN come back.


For everyone else here, keep discussing away about MODERN day feminist psychology and sociology.

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
Are you seriously retarded or something? I am proving the feminist theory on aggressive behavior wrong. I honestly dont care what you defend or dont defend. And i dont know what history book YOURE reading... but it sounds like the pop up ones..... feminist groups were NOT the only ones that advocated womens rights. So dont get all preachy with me, because I personally do not believe that feminists are important in any way.

No. But you're obviously borderline delusional. Ever heard Margaret Mead or even Natalie Chodorow? Probably not. You're completely and utterly ignorant of what feminists are really advocating. You have no idea what you are talking about. It is as if you are referring to the evolutionary theory based on the evidence made 100 years ago. Really quite pathetic.

And read up on history. Not the cliffnotes. But the real history books. Without feminists, you would still be a second-class citizen. Doomed to washing dishes and folding clothes.

And what "other" groups are you referring to?

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye


and seriously...stop throwing the word ignorant around. you sound like an idiot

No. YOU sound quite idiotic. You don't what you are talking about. It's like arguing quantum physics with a 19th century scientists. You misinformed and, yes darling ignorant, of the material that is being discussed on this board.

Originally posted by Draco69
What article. I didn't post any article. Oooookay.


And honey you're still referring to "medieval time" feminist talk. Which is not what I wanted people to discuss. I wanted to talk about the psychology and sociology that feminists imply to masculinity. Which you are obviously ignorant about.

I even posted:

"
No, not really what they are arguing is that boys are programmed to do violence. Encouraged more likely. They are socially constructed by the following tenets:

The antifeminine element
Success element
Aggressive element
Sexual element
Self-Reliant element
"

Read up on modern day feminist psychology and sociology. THEN come back.


For everyone else here, keep discussing away about MODERN day feminist psychology and sociology.




You said you read an article that feminists attribute aggressive behavior to masculinity. THAT is what I am talking about. If you read my FIRST post, the psychology and medical perspective IS what I discussed. You were the one who brought up old feminist behavior with the voting and jobs issue. I know exactly what they imply is the cause of aggressive behavior.

Are you seriously like 12? Cause you seem to be going back to that name calling thing again. but if you want to go that route....
YOU are IGNORANT to the fact that feminists are wrong.
YOU are IGNORANT to the fact that science has proven them wrong.
YOU are IGNORANT to the fact that some people dont find feminists to be of any use or importance

why dont YOU read up on correct, non-feminist modern medicine and psychology and THEN come back

you are seriously the single most irritating and idiotic person I have ever had contact with

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
You said you read an article that feminists attribute aggressive behavior to masculinity. THAT is what I am talking about. If you read my FIRST post, the psychology and medical perspective IS what I discussed. You were the one who brought up old feminist behavior with the voting and jobs issue. I know exactly what they imply is the cause of aggressive behavior.

Are you seriously like 12? Cause you seem to be going back to that name calling thing again. but if you want to go that route....
YOU are IGNORANT to the fact that feminists are wrong.
YOU are IGNORANT to the fact that science has proven them wrong.
YOU are IGNORANT to the fact that some people dont find feminists to be of any use or importance

why dont YOU read up on correct, non-feminist modern medicine and psychology and THEN come back

*sigh* Maybe women really are intellectually inferior.

Darling. For the original purpose of this forum was to discuss the feminists' belief that societal effects of pre-disposed masculinity and how it promotes violence. Not biology. YOU brought that in. Which has nothing to do with this topic.

Nah. I'm old to vote though. I never called you a name. YOU called me a retard. But since you're on your period or something I'm willing to let that slide.

YOU are ignorant of what this thread is about (P.S. Hooked on Phonics would do wonders for you)
YOU are ignorant that your hatred/intense dislike for feminists has wholly blinded you to pick a fight with me. Which is really pathetic.
YOU are ignorant of that fact that just because you believe feminists are wrong doesn't make it fact. Which is even more pathetic.
YOU are ignorant of that fact that the women's movement is to thank for your rights:
Dramatically increasing the numbers of women in higher education including significantly improving the representation of women in medical, law, business, veterinary, engineering, dentistry, and architectural as well as Ph.D. programs.
· Integrating male clubs.
· Increasing the numbers of women and girls in sports.
· Developing strong public support for women's rights.
· Establishing affirmative action programs that expand job opportunities for women.
· Winning higher pay for women.
· Ending sex-segregated want ads.
· Legalizing abortion.
· Passing women's rights legislation such as Title IX of the Educational Amendments which prohibits sex discrimination in federally-funded educational institutions, the Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1988 which restored the effectiveness of Title IX after the Supreme Court gutted the law, the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1991 which banned sex and race discrimination in employment, Equal Pay Act of 1963 which requires employers to pay women and men at the same rate for the same jobs, Equal Credit Act (1975) which banned discrimination in credit, and state equal rights amendments guaranteeing women constitutional equality, and the Pregnancy Discrimination Act of 1978 which prohibits job discrimination on the basis of pregnancy.

Come back with a better understanding of modern feminist sociology/psychology little girl.

Shh! The big boys are talking right now.

Originally posted by KidRock
Cant fighting over Masculintity be the same as fighting over a women? So you could argue Women are the root of all violence.. or at least most of it. Since many fights I have seen have been over a girl. Both guys want to seem like the most masculine one in front of the girl or whatever.. Ill try to explain it better later.

bullshit.

you can get into a fight if you the preson are questioned. But, if your partner is threatened, then kick ass. No one ever learned a lesson from the guy they were picking on walking away. If you have been challenged, then kick their asses. No one learned fom the silent closed fist. I am the father of the caressing slap. You can teach someone who walks away more by chasing them than you can by letting them walk away.

Yes biology has a lot to do with this topic. It proves that feminist psychology is wrong.

And you know what, dont bring in the "medieval" period of feminism if you dont want me to.

Oh yeah and didnt you say you didnt advocate anything either way...or something of that nature... it seems to me that you very much do.... either that or your a flaming homosexual. but you do seem to use the word 'honey' a lot.

Either way I am seriously done dealing with you and your *ignorance* because you obviously dont understand where i am coming from on this topic.... and i really dont feel the need to argue with you about my beliefs.

Dont call me little girl when I am older than you. that makes you sound like an idiot....but then again thats not a new thing for you
And as far as letting the big boys talk... owning a pair of testicles doesnt automatically qualify you to be one of the "big boys". So you might want to take a break as well...

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
Yes biology has a lot to do with this topic. It proves that feminist psychology is wrong.

And you know what, dont bring in the "medieval" period of feminism if you dont want me to.

Oh yeah and didnt you say you didnt advocate anything either way...or something of that nature... it seems to me that you very much do.... either that or your a flaming homosexual. but you do seem to use the word 'honey' a lot.

Either way I am seriously done dealing with you and your *ignorance* because you obviously dont understand where i am coming from on this topic.... and i really dont feel the need to argue with you about my beliefs.


And as far as letting the big boys talk... owning a pair of testicles doesnt automatically qualify you to be one of the "big boys". So you might want to take a break as well...

No, actually it doesn't. Masculinity refers to a GENDER ROLE. Which is not biological. This is purely a sociological/psychological discussion. Which you are ignorant of. Again. A toast to consistency.

Honey, the only thing I am "advocating" is free discussion on the basis of facts. Those facts include what the arguements of feminists are. Which you simply disregard. You are referring to the bygone days of feminism. Which the topic is not referring to. You're ignorant of the subject matter. Again. Another toast to consistency.

Calling me a "flaming" homosexual just further degrades (if this is even possible) your character and intellect in my eyes and everyone else's. Which by the way is another insult. Honey. One more toast to consistency.

Where you are coming from. I completely understand. You don't know anything about modern day feminism. You don't know what you are talking about. And you certainly have no idea what this thread is about. That's the "Homer Simpson" of ignorance. What are you arguing about? Nothing. Why? I'm not advocating feminism. I'm establishing what the feminists are arguing. Which you can't seem to grasp. Your beliefs are respected...but are based on the wrong information.

Break my testicles? Nah I need these golfballs for lovemaking.

By the way, what tampon are you using. Seriously, some times periods can inspire menstrual mood disorders. Which is obviously the case here.

If you want to really inform yourself on what feminism (modern) is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Either way, you've been arguing with me for absolutely no reason. Look back. It's really quite pathetic. Law is definitely not your avenue. No chance in hell. I shudder to think of you in a courtroom. A better career would be George Bush the Third's wife.

Curl, Draco, lets watch the insults and hostility, okay?

that statement, no matter howbiased it is has solid ground, however it is true that the top women activist {specially ones that are in developed countries} have large personal agendas, having said that i would say that because of the large amount of suffering in human history most women are insecure and{excluding psuedo women activists} are willing to believe and take up that statement, on the other hand, given the changing world in which many developed societies take away old unfair rights from the men and give them to the women, men are also to a certain extent insecure and do not want to accept their general mentality because of their sex which does lead to many violent acts, and are also to an extent beeing targetted by this kindof views, but sayin that masculinity is the root of ALL violent acts in this point in time and specially in the developed sicieties is UTTER BULLSHIT.

Originally posted by KidRock
Cant fighting over Masculintity be the same as fighting over a women? So you could argue Women are the root of all violence.. or at least most of it. Since many fights I have seen have been over a girl. Both guys want to seem like the most masculine one in front of the girl or whatever.. Ill try to explain it better later.

kidrock making sense!?!?!?! it IS the apocalypse!!!

but he's right. male aggression from is a primal need to be the 'alpha male'.
of coarse we have evolved so that even the idiotic men can deal with
other eligible bachelors in their presence without beating their chests and attempting to drive them off. but the bottom line is that aggression comes from
an instinctive need to impress women and thus procreate.

if a man is 'punked' it triggers such an instinct. in the primal consciousness, to give up and allow such a 'punking' to happen, you are giving up your right to procreate...and thus not have any reason to exist. a real 'man' can think beyond his primal self and not let it override his logic. he can say "whatever, this guy is just an ass and im not going to sink to his level".

as far as women go, i dont believe its women's FAULT, in that their only contribution to this problem is existence.

of coarse i generalise and their are always exceptions. like women who's bodies produce alot of testosterone tend to be aggressive as well.

dots Yow! Buncha' haters in here!
How come so many people here are so biased against feminism?
I consider myself a feminist and I tend to get along better with men than I do with woman. Nor do I know any feminists that hate men.
First of all we just want equality. You know have jobs, pay the bills, add a little meaning to our lives, control over our own bodies, and not be victems of sex crimes You know up till recently in many states, it was seen as okay if a husband raped his wife?

Secondly, what you call "feminism" are the words of extremists and upperwardly mobile career woman who have co-opted the jargon of the movement for their own personal gain. And the media always finds catfights and man-bashing far more interesting then intelligent conversation.

Thirdly, I think women are just as easily capable of committing vioent acts as men. (Especially if provoked.... don't make me come over there! gunsmilie)

I read this intriguing theory that no one could catch Jack the Ripper was because of the assumtion that the killer was male. This theory suggests that the killer really was a "Jill", a midwife or jealous lover with a vendetta against prostitutes.

Found a site that mentions it:
"Jill/Jane/Julie the Ripper - Mad Midwife
It has been suggested that the perpetrator of these violent crimes may have been a woman practising under the guise of abortion techniques which would go in some part to explain the brutal mutilations undertaken. But the main objection to this theory is that there has never been a RECORDED case of a woman performing sadistic mutilation murders."
http://hosted.ray.easynet.co.uk/serial_killers/whitecha.html

And while we're at it just off the top of my head, some examples of violent women throughout history such as military leaders such as Joan of Arc and Queen Boudicca and murderesses such as Lizzy Bordon.
Violence isn't exactly gender-specific.

"First of all we just want equality"
But we aren't equal, no amount of wanting will make us equal.
I want a golden car filled with donuts. Where is it??

Originally posted by Curl_Up&Dye
I dont trust feminist writings...theyre always biased...

its not masculinity.... it has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles. Guys are supposed to be masculine, which is a characteristic of the male gender role in America... There are plenty of violent females.

it does have everything to do however, with body chemistry. Testosterone and adrenaline are big factors in any violent act. Although there is more testosterone in the male body, it is present (in different levels) in the female body, which can cause aggressive behavior. The adrenaline is in male and female, and is a natural defense system. When a person is in a confrontational situation, adrenaline causes a fight or flight reaction, which is a basic instinct in any human or animal, male or female. It's natural and uncontrollable.

The medula oblongata is one of the most important regions of the brain, and it controls all of the most basic organ and muscle functions, as well as the entire nervous system (which is where aggressive tendancies originate).
The M.O region is located at the back and base of the brain, connects to the spinal cord, and includes everything except the cerebellum (which controls balance and coordination) and the pons. Most of the brain nerves are present here.
The M.O adjusts the heart and respitory rate as necessary, which are key factors in a confrontation situation. Animals with an enlarged M.O are scientifically proven to be much more aggressive than other animals.

Certain types of over the counter and prescription medications, including anti-histamines found in nearly all allergy and cold medicines(suprisingly) and chemicals in anti-seizure medication have been proven to cause aggressive behavior.
There are also mental conditions that cause this type of behavior. ADHD, Autism, Epilepsy/mental retardation, and children who are suffering from or have recovered from brain trauma or brain infections are all known to have aggressive behavior.

Lead poisoning, as well as iron and deficiency anemia, prenatal exposure to cigarettes, alcohol, and drugs, are all well known-causes.

I'm not even going to get into the effects of the enviornment in which the person lives. It would take forever.
But there is a phrase/theory that was originally coined by early Sociologists, but is now synonymous with the Scientology religion...which states "man is a product of his enviornment".
This basically means that where you live affects your behavior. You see drug dealers in rough neighborhoods, because that is what they were exposed to growing up, and that is what they learned because of it. Sexual abusers were more often than not abused during their childhood. These are just a few examples, you can look up more if you want.

Whew! So, as proven by medical experts NOT FEMINISTS, aggressive behavior is caused by chemical imbalances, natural functioning, and enviorment....NOT GENDER!!!


b!tches...

so are anti-feminist writings. as are any writings, your's very much included.

the way you use the word 'masculinity' pretty much indicates that you haven't given it much thought. of course american men are expected to be 'masculine', all men are. but what exactly do you mean by 'masculine'? modern gender studies (yes, that includes those darn feminists) prefer using 'masculinities', since it's become increasingly harder defining exactly what masculinity is, just as femininity is constantly changing. these words are simply used to describing what we think (rightly or wrong) is most significant about the specific gender. in that sense, the violent women you hinted at would be described as masculine too, because we view aggression as a masculine thing.
now, I don't disagree with you that there probably are some biological things at play when it comes to aggression. and I highly doubt that many feminists will disagree with you either. I can't comment on the exact article Draco was referring to, simply because I haven't read it, but most feminist and gender study writing acknowledge the biological differences between the genders. that doesn't mean, however, that the gender is completely insignificant. we have many impulses everyday based on biological factors, but whether we react on them or not has very often to do with the way we were brought up, our environment, etc., as you mentioned yourself. then why are you so reluctant to see that gender plays a very specific part in the way we're brought up? the way we're expected to act? if a boy is brought up to believe that 'masculinity' is beating everybody else up, then that's what he'll believe he has to do to be 'masculine'. yet, as I stated above, 'masculinity' is tricky to define, and this is what feminist writers mostly touch upon; our idea of masculiny is old-fashioned and built on the idea that men are allowed to express aggression. this is the masculine values brought on to the young boys.

concerning your other posts: I really don't see you argue your hatred towards feminism very well. feminists are biased, you say (showing vast amounts of biased oppinions yourself in the same breath). not a very intelligent argument. exactly what is biased about them? exactly what feminist theorists are you referring to? Judith Butler? Laura Mulvey? Simone de Beauvoir?
I can't help finding you hatred nothing short of arrogant. as Draco pointed out, feminists are a major part of the reason that you got the rights you have right now. so, they weren't necessary? other people rights groups would have done the job for them? what groups are you referring to? and if they had to do with the question of women's rights, doesn't that make them feminists? what's the difference between a people's right person, who want's the genders to have equal rights, and a feminist?
and what in the name of what ever god you believe in makes you say that feminists aren't necessary anymore? have you opened a paper lately? have you seen the news? do you know the state of the world? then you'd know that women are still behind men when it comes to wages and good jobs. women are still being discriminated against, still being sexually harrassed, still raped, still beaten by their partners.
also, literature, the media, everything cultural still (and always will) touches upon gender-related areas. feminists are among the people analysing these things, helping us see them from another point of view. not one you necessarily need to agree with, but nonetheless one that decerves being taken into consideration.

I love how Draco speaks of his support of feminism and then then calls a woman whom he doesn't agree with "honey" and "little girl" during an arguement. That's classic.

If Masculinity is the root of all violent acts, can someone tell me why there is a monumental increase in the violent behaviour of teen girls in north america in the last 15 years?

Masculinity is not the cause of violent behavior, except on the base instinctual level, i.e. protect myself, protect my family, survive. The cause of violent behavior is a combination of environment and socialization. If we teach kids to solve problems through violence, they'll do that. If we idolize those who act violently, then violence will be an admirable quality that one would desire to project.

Equally violence is a result of a position that some may be put in, kick the most passive dog enough and eventually it will bite.

The theory that Masculinity is the root of all violent acts is not only propaganda, but a blanket comment that covers up the real problems and seems to alleviate women from all resposibility of the occurance of violence in the world.

Originally posted by KharmaDog


If Masculinity is the root of all violent acts, can someone tell me why there is a monumental increase in the violent behaviour of teen girls in north america in the last 15 years?

Masculinity is not the cause of violent behavior, except on the base instinctual level, i.e. protect myself, protect my family, survive. The cause of violent behavior is a combination of environment and socialization. If we teach kids to solve problems through violence, they'll do that. If we idolize those who act violently, then violence will be an admirable quality that one would desire to project.

Equally violence is a result of a position that some may be put in, kick the most passive dog enough and eventually it will bite.

The theory that Masculinity is the root of all violent acts is not only propaganda, but a blanket comment that covers up the real problems and seems to alleviate women from all resposibility of the occurance of violence in the world.

masculinity isn't something reserved for men only. it's a word defining qualities we mostly associate with men, whether these qualities are correct or not. aggression are among these qualities. that doesn't mean that women can't be aggressive, it simply means that we call eggressive women 'butch', that they're defined as 'un-feminine' and thus 'masculine'.
this is why masculinity hasn't got anything to do with instincts (not as I understand it at least.) instincts are nature given (and belongs to both genders; protecting yourself, your family and making sure of own survival goes for women too), masculinity and femininity are man-made words, describing what we think (should) define(s) the two sexes.
I agree that most violent acts are cause to bad up-bringing ans social environment. but upbringing has everything to do with how your parents viewed your role as a gender. as a boy, are you expected to be hard hitting and tough to be considered 'masculine'? or understanding and kind?
not having read Draco's article, I can't say exactly what the writers intendet with it. mostly such articles concerns the 'oldfashioned' way of viewing masculinity though, that is, masculinity as something tough and aggressive. this is what most feminists and people working with gender studies mean by a 'dangerous' kind of 'masculinity'; the ideal, that boys must be aggressive to be 'men'.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
I love how Draco speaks of his support of feminism and then then calls a woman whom he doesn't agree with "honey" and "little girl" during an arguement. That's classic.



I got the feeling he was doing that on purpose, to illicit a reaction. I thought it was funny. Everytime I get in an argument over homosexuality with Napalm, I call him 'sweetie'.

And let's face it, masculinity is like the text book version of a bad word in this country today. Or at least it was two elections ago. I do believe that masculinity, in the feminist definition, is a technical term for testosterone driven stupidity, coupled with a severe lack of contact with ones own emotions. Oh, and a tendancy to eat fried chicken with one's fingers and then spend all day smelling them.

But, in reality masculinity doesn't have to imply those things. In fact, I have always thought of masculinity to be an ability to both understand and maintain control over ones emotions. Or, putting someone elses well being ahead of their own. Perhaps it's going to work all day and earning a living for your family. And the interesting thing is that these are things that women do every day in this world. Women who fought for the right to do these things were trying to fulfill an equal position in society as the men. By doing so, they themselves became masculine. Being a man doesn't denote ignorant violence as a means of solving problems. By assigning this ideal to men, they are just as guilty of stereotyping as men used to be when women were still birthing kids and cooking dinner.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
I love how Draco speaks of his support of feminism and then then calls a woman whom he doesn't agree with "honey" and "little girl" during an arguement. That's classic.



"Honey", I'll write this off as a moment of temporary stupidity because I NEVER supported feminism on this thread. I was merely correcting what the people thought the feminists were arguing for this particular. People on this thread were consistently referring to a radical (almost extinct) feminist philosophy that nearly all feminists completely disagree with.

Originally posted by Draco69
"Honey", I'll write this off as a moment of temporary stupidity because I NEVER supported feminism on this thread.

You often insult people before you try to make a point. You know that that is a ressult of someone who has security issues don't you? If you are trying to make a point or point out the mistakes of others or a miscommunication on your own part starting off with a glib insult pretty much nullifies anything intelligent you have to say.

As for your "I NEVER supported feminism", what you did is played both sides of the fence to make a point and yet cover your ass. That's cool too, I agree that in order to intellectually grow you have to keep an open mind. But when you get into a debate with someone, and during that debate you resort to personal attacks or comments it appears that you have a personal stake in the beliefs that you are defending. When you do that, those beliefs appear as your own.

I have come to kinda "ignore" a lot of what feminist have to say in a lot of their writings. they are undoubtedly bias and although they have valid arguments, most of them don't stand up too well to real criticism. this is mostly because the obvious bias is present when you dissect a feminist argument. so yea, not much else for me to say, i just learned to shrug off most of what they have to say.

Originally posted by BackFire
Anything said by feminists automatically become null and void. I don't care if they say "all humans breath air", the fact that they are feminists makes them wrong, somehow.

Not all feminist are women - great deal are men.
Feminism deals with gender - including male.
Actually a male feminist theory - most men who dislike or have immense phobia of feminism are afraid of it.

Also, what is a femenst ideology?



Originally posted by Draco69
No, not really what they are arguing is that boys are programmed to do violence. Encouraged more likely. They are socially constructed by the following tenets:

The antifeminine element
Success element
Aggressive element
Sexual element
Self-Reliant element

Yes. Just like male children are programed to develop a 'compulsary hetrosexuality'. If a boy shows an interest in other boys he is an outsider - many are resulted in being emotionaly or phisycally harmed by other boys.

Masculinity is mostly the cause of violence - 98% of men who raped other men were hetrosexual.
Almost all hate crimes against homosexual male and female are commited by hetrosexual males - issue of masculinity with male, and issue of inferiority and mascilinity with gay females - hence, hate crimes.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I have come to kinda "ignore" a lot of what feminist have to say in a lot of their writings. they are undoubtedly bias and although they have valid arguments, most of them don't stand up too well to real criticism. this is mostly because the obvious bias is present when you dissect a feminist argument. so yea, not much else for me to say, i just learned to shrug off most of what they have to say.

Same question to you as for BackFire - since you read so much about it - what is a feminist ideology?

Here are a couple of articles about it.



http://www.beingjane.com/feminism.php

http://www.beingjane.com/feminism.php

"We owe the great strides women have made in society to the pioneering women — and thoughtful men — who have come before us, paving the way. Because of them, there is nothing incorrect with feminism today. Yet, we know “feminism” is a historically and emotionally laden word, and it is an outdated concept for some who hear it."