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Okay I'm starting this thread because me and some other members started arguing about it in the Revan vs. Dooku thread. So who do you think is the baddest sith there ever was? Darth Revan the apprentice of Kreia aka. Darth Traya, master of Darth Malak Victor of the mandalorian wars, finder of the Star Forge, master of Malachor V, initiator of the big Jedi Civil War and the person that let the republic tremble at the almost-defeat of the republic; or is it going to be Darth Sidious the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, master of Darth Maul, Tyranus and Vader, initiator of the seperatistic movement and the clone wars, the man responsible for order 66 aka. the purge, the supreme chancellor of the republic without being noticed by the jedi and the creator of the Galactic Empire. Who is it going to be? It's your choice, choose wisely.

Revan

Revan i already said my arguments in the other thread, but I'll just state them again here for the sake of arguing..

Lets just take a look at what the two did.

Sidious his toughest battle was facing four masters including Windu.

Revan his toughest battle is unknown but when he was facing five masters and Bastila (masters that were incredibly powerful to be allowed to go there) he just stood there. Not joining his troops when he could have gotten an advantage, only igniting his lightsaber at the last second. Take an stance waiting for them to come instead of taking out the one that was near so that he would have one less opponent by the time the rest was finished with their enemy's. He also casually choked a Republic officer just for the hell of it. If Revan feared them he would have had them killed before they landed on his ship, or he would have send an army of Dark Jedi to deal with them.
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Sidious conquered the republic that did not have a real army, with deceptions tricks and politics. He maneuvered himself in ways that few politicians could have done and he was brilliant in it. The fact however remains that he never raged a head on war against the Jedi Order, and did not want to do so until it was severely weakened. He was brilliant I'll give you that, but a politician without any fighting. Even when he could have controlled the clone army and the separatist army's he refused to use them. Instead he just let those two fight killing as many Jedi as possible in the battles.

Revan left the Jedi Order to fight for he believed was right, he faced the Mandelorians and lead the Republic to victory against the Mandelorians when no else could. After the Mandelorians were defeated he used the republic troops loyal to him to launch a new war. Revan could have become councillor and Jedi Master, but he wanted the war. He needed the war, it made him stronger. It challenged him, thats what he wanted. To proof how great he was, to train and become stronger by crushing your opponents.

Now the argument could be made that Sidious faced more and more powerful Jedi and opponents, but thats bullshit. Revan faced thousands of Jedi. Most of them had faced Sith in their lives, they had seen battle and war. The republic during Sidious his time was a stagnant beast, with no wars or challenges. Revan faced experienced Jedi in greater numbers while Sidious faced unexperienced Jedi that were used to peace with lower numbers. Still he didn't fight them head on, not even when he could have controlled almost all army's in the Galaxy at that time.


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The Star Forge is one of the most powerful tools Revan has, but even with an infinite amount of ships he will still need troops. Troops he had from the start and he only got more. Seeing as Revan started out with a Republic fleet, he had to have been successful with just that fleet otherwise he wouldn't have been able to fill the Star Forge fleet. Meaning basically that Revan did not need the Star Forge from the beginning. He would have been able to do a lot against the Republic without it, he did. The Star forge was just a temporary tool. Revan left the republic intact and he obviously had the intention to eventually destroy or stop using the star forge knowing what happened to the Infinite Empire. He would not have wanted something like that to happen to his Empire.

the Star Forge was kinda like the Death Star, a means to an end. Revan would use the forces there to create a larger fleet and the death star had the same purpose, only in a different way. When Revan still wanted to face the Republic head one. Sidious his Death star was meant to scare the rebellion into surrendering. Once again without any real combat.

When you see the second Death Star, Sidious has an huge advantage, he has a battle station and a larger fleet. Obviously he does not trust his fleet or his military genius, otherwise he would have challenged the Rebellion before that, he probably would have pulled it off.

Another thing about the Star Forge, to be able to control it you need a huge command of the force. Malak had this but he was not able to control it, he was able to make it work. Revan however managed to let it work for him. He did not use the Star Forge like Malak did, because he could keep control of the mighty machine.

After Revan and Malak many Siths tried to take over the Star Forge but all failed, they couldn't control it and died trying to do so. These were Sith that had seen a lot of combat had faced plenty of Jedi and had done a lot of impressive things in their lives. They couldn't control it.

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Now i know how you feel about Malachor V, but start a new Kotor II game make Revan a Dark Male and then go to Korriban, find your way into Uthars room and listen to the Holocron Bastila left. Malachor V was just an means to destroying the Mandelorians and the people that would probably not support him.



In conclusion: Sidious his greatest battle does not even compare to the greatest we know about Revan. Even if we did not see Revan fight, we all know that he would have finished the Jedi there.

While Sidious was using tricks to weaken the Republic Revan just faced them head on. He went to war to become stronger. Sidious was more then willing to just take the power without fighting. Revan wanted to face the Republic he wanted the challange. He wanted to proof himself and grow. Sidious did not.

The Star Forge was important for Revan to be able to support the incredible amount of troops that would join him, but he left the Republic in tact and saw it only as a temporary tool until he could use the Republic to build the rest of his fleet so that he could just destroy the star forge and end its problems once and for all.


From all of that I can come to only one conclusion. Revan is more powerful, more willing to fight, has more experience, seen a lot more combat a better control of the force to be able to resist the star forge. Revan all in all just outclasses Sidious in everything but Politics.

Revan's approach to politics was destabilization throughy assassination. He employed the HK droids to eliminate political threats to his expansion.

He only employed one of the HK droids... HK-47 was the only one he ever made and far superior to the rip off versions that were around in Kotor II

G0-T0 never managed to perfect his droids...

(if you wanna know more about that please start another thread or something, i kinda want to see what will happen in this one)

Revan had no need for trickery, he could outsmart the Republic in battle or use brute force, whichever he preferred. Revan truly is an army of one. Notice that the Mandalorians were winning until Revan took control of the Republic forces and defeated them. Then he defeated the side he was just fighting for with only half of the forces the Republic had. Then (light side) he could turn around and defeat the Sith empire that he created. We also saw how long it lasted without him (dark side).

I'm convinced now, that Revan truly is the better tactical war genius, he probably would have had even more combat skills, but I still think Sidious was a genius in infiltrating the republic and using all the conflicts as tools, to make him the emperor. Maybe Revan would have beaten him in a lightsaber combat, but I still think that Sidious was more powerful in using the force. But if Revan would lead a war against Sidious and both sides would have a fleet with the same strength, then Revan would win by far I admit it.

But Palpatine controls the church! Ha hA!!

I'm gonna have to go with Revan, for many of the reasons mentioned by Fishy, Darth Revan33, and Janus.

It's just hard for me to believe that the video-game bad guy is more powerful than the ultimate movie bad guy.

And therein lies your problem: both are fantasy and fiction. Why choose one over the other? Because one's filmed?

Probably because I see the films as the main storys in the star wars galaxy. I'm just a little traditional.

No problem with being traditional. Just remember, tradition isn't open to new ideas and new concepts. It's nice to have steadfast belief in things, but it can lead to stagnation. And the Star Wars universe would be stagnate indeed without EU.

I have nothing against the EU. I mean the EU is great, but I've seen the star wars movies as the highlight of the star wars history. And I still see Sidious as the ultimate bad guy. I mean like he's purified evil. I think Revan was great leading an entire Army to crush the republic, but I don't think he has the purified evil in him as Sidious had.

I agree with you there. revan was never pure evil. Sidious is malicious evil, and, being much closer to the definition of evil, is full of betrayal, shifty behaviour, and much more.

Well then it seems like we finally agreed in something on this topic.

i love revan, he just emulates everything that it cool about being a psychotic loony with a lightsbaer and probably damaged the republic the most through brute force and tactical brilliance. But perhaps Sidious realised that all the attempts of the Sith to take the Republic through brute force had failed for a reason and that he realised it just couldnt be done no matter how strong the sith were so he began his political game and suceeded in destroying the jedi and the republic. It's just a thought . . .

Possibly, but seeing as how Revan's forceful take-over of the Republic was only thwarted due to a Sith's act of betrayal, it's doubtful that was the case. You don't need war or a battle as a backdrop for betrayal; Maul or Tyranus could've betrayed Sids just as easily as Malak betrayed Revan.

I think if they got two armies together, and had a battle age of empires style, revan would win....but in a one on one fight, Sidious all the way. IMHO.

Originally posted by Fishy
Revan i already said my arguments in the other thread, but I'll just state them again here for the sake of arguing..

Lets just take a look at what the two did.

Sidious his toughest battle was facing four masters including Windu.

Revan his toughest battle is unknown but when he was facing five masters and Bastila (masters that were incredibly powerful to be allowed to go there) he just stood there. Not joining his troops when he could have gotten an advantage, only igniting his lightsaber at the last second. Take an stance waiting for them to come instead of taking out the one that was near so that he would have one less opponent by the time the rest was finished with their enemy's. He also casually choked a Republic officer just for the hell of it. If Revan feared them he would have had them killed before they landed on his ship, or he would have send an army of Dark Jedi to deal with them.
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Sidious conquered the republic that did not have a real army, with deceptions tricks and politics. He maneuvered himself in ways that few politicians could have done and he was brilliant in it. The fact however remains that he never raged a head on war against the Jedi Order, and did not want to do so until it was severely weakened. He was brilliant I'll give you that, but a politician without any fighting. Even when he could have controlled the clone army and the separatist army's he refused to use them. Instead he just let those two fight killing as many Jedi as possible in the battles.

Revan left the Jedi Order to fight for he believed was right, he faced the Mandelorians and lead the Republic to victory against the Mandelorians when no else could. After the Mandelorians were defeated he used the republic troops loyal to him to launch a new war. Revan could have become councillor and Jedi Master, but he wanted the war. He needed the war, it made him stronger. It challenged him, thats what he wanted. To proof how great he was, to train and become stronger by crushing your opponents.

Now the argument could be made that Sidious faced more and more powerful Jedi and opponents, but thats bullshit. Revan faced thousands of Jedi. Most of them had faced Sith in their lives, they had seen battle and war. The republic during Sidious his time was a stagnant beast, with no wars or challenges. Revan faced experienced Jedi in greater numbers while Sidious faced unexperienced Jedi that were used to peace with lower numbers. Still he didn't fight them head on, not even when he could have controlled almost all army's in the Galaxy at that time.


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The Star Forge is one of the most powerful tools Revan has, but even with an infinite amount of ships he will still need troops. Troops he had from the start and he only got more. Seeing as Revan started out with a Republic fleet, he had to have been successful with just that fleet otherwise he wouldn't have been able to fill the Star Forge fleet. Meaning basically that Revan did not need the Star Forge from the beginning. He would have been able to do a lot against the Republic without it, he did. The Star forge was just a temporary tool. Revan left the republic intact and he obviously had the intention to eventually destroy or stop using the star forge knowing what happened to the Infinite Empire. He would not have wanted something like that to happen to his Empire.

the Star Forge was kinda like the Death Star, a means to an end. Revan would use the forces there to create a larger fleet and the death star had the same purpose, only in a different way. When Revan still wanted to face the Republic head one. Sidious his Death star was meant to scare the rebellion into surrendering. Once again without any real combat.

When you see the second Death Star, Sidious has an huge advantage, he has a battle station and a larger fleet. Obviously he does not trust his fleet or his military genius, otherwise he would have challenged the Rebellion before that, he probably would have pulled it off.

Another thing about the Star Forge, to be able to control it you need a huge command of the force. Malak had this but he was not able to control it, he was able to make it work. Revan however managed to let it work for him. He did not use the Star Forge like Malak did, because he could keep control of the mighty machine.

After Revan and Malak many Siths tried to take over the Star Forge but all failed, they couldn't control it and died trying to do so. These were Sith that had seen a lot of combat had faced plenty of Jedi and had done a lot of impressive things in their lives. They couldn't control it.

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Now i know how you feel about Malachor V, but start a new Kotor II game make Revan a Dark Male and then go to Korriban, find your way into Uthars room and listen to the Holocron Bastila left. Malachor V was just an means to destroying the Mandelorians and the people that would probably not support him.



In conclusion: Sidious his greatest battle does not even compare to the greatest we know about Revan. Even if we did not see Revan fight, we all know that he would have finished the Jedi there.

While Sidious was using tricks to weaken the Republic Revan just faced them head on. He went to war to become stronger. Sidious was more then willing to just take the power without fighting. Revan wanted to face the Republic he wanted the challange. He wanted to proof himself and grow. Sidious did not.

The Star Forge was important for Revan to be able to support the incredible amount of troops that would join him, but he left the Republic in tact and saw it only as a temporary tool until he could use the Republic to build the rest of his fleet so that he could just destroy the star forge and end its problems once and for all.


From all of that I can come to only one conclusion. Revan is more powerful, more willing to fight, has more experience, seen a lot more combat a better control of the force to be able to resist the star forge. Revan all in all just outclasses Sidious in everything but Politics.


Agreed. And by the way, that was an excellent post, it said everything I wanted to say.

Originally posted by jackstain
I think if they got two armies together, and had a battle age of empires style, revan would win....but in a one on one fight, Sidious all the way. IMHO.

Juuuuust curious, Jack. What's the basis of your opinion? Is it because you dig old men in drag or what? C'mon... try some reasons.

i think sid has no chance in saber duel.
even thou he was pure evil, revan had far more knowledge of the force then sidious, considering that it was almost lost untill his time.
also, defeating yoda and windu is quite an achievement, yet, revan defeated almost all of the jedi order during the best ages of the order.

err yes. well done. not really much more to say is there?

Well yeah, but how did Revan beat most of the jedi order? He surely didn't fight against them in one on one combat. He ordered armys to fight against the jedi. So you can't compare that with Sidious fighting against four jedi masters at the same time. And you also can't be sure, that Sidious would have no chance in a lightsaber duel. We all know that the most powerful force-users were the ones that used the force as little as possible (as seen in Yoda and Mara Jade preaching to Jacen or Anakin Solo in the NJO). Sidious could have a very good chance against Revan.

I dig old men.

Theyre hot.

Stfu.

Of course Sidious has a very good chance against Revan. He IS powerful. But it's more likely Revan will win as he's the more powerful of the two.

Revan might have been more powerful in leading armys but we don't actually know how powerful Revan is compared to Sidious in direct combat.

All we know about Sidious is that he faced four Jedi Masters, Revan had more then that following him during the Mandelorian wars.

Sidious avoided combat when Revan drew it out. Sidious was using tricks to conquer the republic, revan was using the military. Sidious didn't even fight when he had control of all army's, he still wanted to weaken the Jedi in an internal struggle. Revan always faced his opponents. Sidious wanted power without fighting, revan wanted to fight. Revan grew up during wars, he proved himself during wars. He has fought wars for a long period in his life. Sidious however never fought. He did not face as many Jedi, Sith or normal soldiers as Revan. He always placed himself behind the scenes, he could have been powerful but he was afraid of something otherwise he would just have taken the Republic.

No instead he had to use cheap tricks to conquer the Republic, yes they worked and it was brilliant. But Sidious was never an actual fighter. He used politics instead of military power, he let others weaken his enemy's instead of facing them himself.

He simply did not have the experience Revan had. He did not face the Jedi Revan faced, during wars he kept himself on a distance not fighting but sending his servants. Revan fought himself, he proved himself threw combat. Something that Sidious never did. Sidious may have been powerful, but he wouldn't have stood a chance against somebody who has fought his entire life, who has faced more Jedi and Sith then Sidious even knew existed

Okay now let's just leave out the whole part with conquering the republic and so on and just think about a lightsaber duel. We don't get to see Revan fight and the Jedi that boarded his ship weren't THE most powerful jedi of that time, those were just some powerful jedi, because we don't see Vrook, Vandar or Kavar and whoever else was considered most powerful jedi at that time. But at the time of ROTS Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, the Iktochi jedi and the Zabrak jedi were all in the council on Coruscant. So that means that Sidious deals with THE most powerful jedi at that time, except for Yoda, at the same time. And later he also takes care of Yoda. So what does this mean?

That means he faced a few Jedi that never fought before...

Now you are right in saying those guys on Revan his ship weren't the most powerful Jedi of all time, they were incredibly powerful how ever. The entire Jedi Council on Dantooine says so when you talk to them about the mission, they all agree on the power of those people and that they were amongst the most powerful Jedi of the time in order to be allowed to capture Revan. Bastila is only there because of her battle meditation.

So Revan was indeed about to fight against some of the most powerful Jedi of the time, and he was not worried.

Now about the most powerful Masters, Kavar admits that he can't beat Malak, Revan his apprentice who couldn't beat Revan. Meaning Kavar can't beat Revan either. Seeing as Kavar is second only to vrook it pretty much means that the rest could not beat Revan either.

Kreia kills all those masters with just one move of her hand and she admits to being weaker then Revan. Yet still she does it without any problem. Doesn't that mean that Revan could do the same? Kill Kavar, Vrook, Zal Kal El or whatever his name was easily?

The Council on Coruscant is pretty empty when the Exile shows up there to be judged. Seeing as Disciple talks about Council members joining Revan I'm just going to assume the empty seats belong to council members who followed Revan.

Now they followed Revan they did not command Revan. They did not return to the Jedi after the destruction of the Mandelorians. And if they did you never hear about them, which would be strange considering how important they are. So they either died or they followed Revan further. Disciple talks directly about one that followed Revan even after Revan returned as a Sith Lord (he only talks about that one, because thats one the Exile and Disciple are both supposed to know)

Basically meaning that Revan had Jedi Councillors working for him, and they were to afraid to challenge him for control even as they embraced the Sith teachings. They couldn't even challenge Malak and he was weaker then Revan thats for sure. Sidious may have fought the most powerful Jedi of his time. Revan had them following him, or defeated them. Every single last one of those masters knows they are weaker then Revan, many admit to it. He would have killed them all, there is no denying to it. The Masters were lucky that they had always managed to run from Revan and that he lost his memory but Revan would have killed them all.

He has more training more experience and seen more wars. Sids would die

I do think Revan would win, but I dont think people are giving Sidious his due; when you read some of the old republic novels you see all the trickery Sidious devised and how manically ingenious he was and its a weak insult to say that these were stupid tricks. He sabotaged the outbound project as well.

I still dont know .....Sideous did have the power to create or at least as he will prove maintain life "stop death"....Id have to give it to sideous unless Revan was also powerful enough in the force to stop death or create life....

I hate most EU...im sick of the stupidity of these 'overpowerd' EU characters. I dont blame lucas for not reading any of the EU...

Sidious wins hands down...

Lucas is a dick

I apologize

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I hate most EU...im sick of the stupidity of these 'overpowerd' EU characters. I dont blame lucas for not reading any of the EU...

Sidious wins hands down...

Then what the hell are you in an EU subforum?

Real quick...



Err... not necessarily, Fishy. They were all respectable fighters, as evidenced by their participation during the Clone Wars; Mace Windu was extremely fearsome. Sidious didn't even defeat him in combat. Could he have? Maybe. We'll never know; Sidious instead decided to use subterfuge.

Well yeah they have fought but not their entire life, and most of the time they fought against each other in duels, maybe they fought against droids and shit like that, but none of them ever really faced a Sith Lord and none of them knew what they were up against...

But you can't also say that the jedi that boarded Revans ship fought their whole lives. The only war they probably fought in were the mandalorian wars, cause they don't really look old enough to have fought in the war of exar kun. And you say they may have fought against droids and shit whatsoever, but remember that they fought against thousands and thousands of droids and shit whatsoever.

A droid can not compare to a Mandelorian... A training simulation is nothing compared to the real thing. Fighting for your life teaches you to fight, fighting for your life against opponents who can defeat you. Opponents that are more then able to kill Jedi. The Mandelorians were far more powerful then any droid.

And maybe they only fought in the Mandelorian wars, but they also fought in the Jedi Civil War. Meaning they fought against Revan his forces for a year and a half. Thats 18 months of fighting against Dark Jedi. Seeing as they are apparantly great and powerful you can assume they have fought for the mayority of that time. They were powerful.

Now don't get me wrong, i really do think Sidious is powerful i really do. But he is not the fighter Revan is. He refused to fight while Revan was always one of the first to fight. He always wanted to fight. He faced the Jedi head on while Sidious let them kill themselves, brilliant yes. But not the ways of a fighter.

Maybe he isn't a straight up warrior, no. Sidious' powers come through deception and politics. His plan to frame the Jedi Knights worked out brilliantly and if he wouldn't have been so arrogant he would have seduced Luke and the Sith would have ruled forever.

But Revan does have the combat experience advantage

Exactly, Sidious was powerful and briliant just not a fighter... He lacks the experience

I'm sure that sparring with Maul(I know he did this several times.), fighting four Jedi Master, and Yoda didn't give him any experince. He also probably sparred with Dooku from time to time to improve both their skills.

Let me give you an example. I am a martial artist. I have a training partner who is 4 years more experinced than me. We spar with eachother and both learn a lot. He is definatly ten times better than me, but I can still teach him things. Same thing with Maul and Sidious and Dooku with Sidious. Although he was better than either of them, he could still learn a lot and I sure he would take up on that opportunity.

There's a difference in experience levels of a person who trains a, let's say, an informal setting with peers and someone who does that AND goes to war, being in life or death situations.

Exactly, you should know that Glentract.

When you fight with friends or during training you are more careful you hold back. Now how do you think you would fight if somebody attacked you on the streets? You may have learned a few things but not enough to beat somebody who has fought on the street his entire life...

Sorry dude, you may win tournaments you may win medals but if one guy there has always been fighting he will own you because he is not set to restrictions and limits. You always are in your fights. Thats the mayor difference, Revan fought to win. He fought to kill. Sidious to train how ever slightly...

Not to mention that Revan fought many different opponents. Sidious only fought a few... Giving Revan another edge.

I'll not go as far as to say Sids' abilities with a lightsaber are sub-par, but I think Revan wins because he's flat out more powerful and at the very least just as good with a lightsaber as Sidious. The evidence, to me anyway, just suggests that.

I think Sidious but if they where going to fight Revan off course.

You think Sidious would win, unless they would fight cause then it would be Revan? Explain

I am pretty sure that Revan never killed four Jedi Masters at the same time. One of them, Mace Windu, being commonly thought to be better than Malak, and another, Agen Kolar, who was supposed to be one of the best Jedi with a lightsaber at that time. All of them had been fighting in the clone wars for two years(I'm not sure about Mace), and probably did some training on their own to get ready if they ever had to fight a Sith. Also, you can't say that these Jedi are no good against Sith because they weren't trained to fight them, or they "weren't fighting the real thing", because Plo Koon fought and killed Darth Rage. Plo Koon was able to do this because he, like man other Jedi, after the Sith returned began learning how to do some advanced fighting against other lightsaber wielders. They also knew some of the basics because of several years of sparing with other apprentices in the Jedi Temple. So we have four Jedi Masters. Each of them have some knowlege of how to fight lightsaber wielding Jedi properly. One uses a form that Sidious dosen't know the whole thing because Maul used form VII, Vapaad was an extension of form VII. Sidious also survived in a fight against Yoda some time later. Revan never did anything like this that I know of. And for all of the Sith that you fight in the game, none of them are nearly as powerful as the Jedi Masters that Sidious fought, and these weaker Sith that Revan fought, I am pretty sure that he never fought four at the same time. I have changed my mind from my other post and think that Sidious might be able to beat Revan. Revan simply never did anything like killing four of the strongest Jedi Masters at the Jedi Temple at that time.

I wish some people would realise that Revan actually found the Star Forge, yes the Star Forge. Sidious had to build his and it was destroyed by a farmboy. At least the Star Forge took the entire Republic fleet. Also, I wonder who has more knowledge of the force, Sidious who hid in the shadows of Coruscant for half his life or Revan, who 'found' the Star Forge, resisted its corruption and then did the same with Malachor IV. And we don't even know what he did after that.
And another, Mace Windu basically defeats Sidious. It's only Anakin's interventiob that changes that!

Gonna take your big post and edit in parenthesis because it's easier than writing my own post and looking up all the damn time.



I am pretty sure that Revan never killed four Jedi Masters at the same time. (It's better to say you don't know if he did or didn't. While it is doubtless that his machinations elminated or converted many Jedi and Council Members, we don't know for sure how many Masters he's fought. But absence of proof is not proof of absence.)

One of them, Mace Windu, being commonly thought to be better than Malak, (But is Mace better than Malak? You have all those stats... why don't you tell us? Although stats are strictly non-canon, it's about the only way we can compare the two since Malak's on-screen displays of fighting are minimal and he doesn't have a novel yet.)

and another, Agen Kolar, who was supposed to be one of the best Jedi with a lightsaber at that time.(In a time of few Jedi, many of whom died in the firefight at Geonosis, which is pathetic. Jedi of this time were SORELY lacking in lightsaber to lightsaber ability, and they couldn't even properly fight a war. Jedi and Sith of Revan's time fought Mandalorians, with Exar Kun fresh in their mind. They were better fighters and thus any Jedi or Sith Revan kills is worth almost two of the modern equivalent.)

All of them had been fighting in the clone wars for two years(I'm not sure about Mace-note, original poster's own notes, not mine)... (I'd like to note that the Clone Wars were not a war against deadly Mandalorians where whole planets were burned and glassed; also, in the years following, more Sith and Jedi clashed then perhaps even in Exar Kun's time. Thus, lightsaber combat took on a whole new meaning. Saying a post-Ruusan Jedi is on par with this is like saying a Renaissance swashbuckler can take a medieval weaponsmaster.)

, and probably did some training on their own to get ready if they ever had to fight a Sith. (Probably? That won't hold up in court)

Also, you can't say that these Jedi are no good against Sith because they weren't trained to fight them, or they "weren't fighting the real thing", because Plo Koon fought and killed Darth Rage. Plo Koon was able to do this because he, like man other Jedi, after the Sith returned began learning how to do some advanced fighting against other lightsaber wielders. (So a year or two of reinventing their styles is better than most of a lifetime spent learning saber to saber combat?)

They also knew some of the basics because of several years of sparing with other apprentices in the Jedi Temple. (The basics? I know the basics of combat, and I can't kill a swordmaster.)

So we have four Jedi Masters. (Jedi master in itself is not a grand title. It merely means that, with a few rare exceptions for cases of skill or contribution to the Jedi Order, all Jedi Masters have successfully trained one padawan to knighthood. That's it. It doesn't mean you're a saber god or even potent in the Force, although, to be true, Council members SHOULD be among the strongest of the Order. But let's face it, the post-Russan Order was weak and lax.)

Each of them have some knowlege of how to fight lightsaber wielding Jedi properly. (Keyword some)

One uses a form that Sidious dosen't know the whole thing because Maul used form VII, Vapaad was an extension of form VII. (But Sidious had the advantage in that no one thought he would be that deadly. Also, his form as of yet is undeclared. It might be a whole new style)

Sidious also survived in a fight against Yoda some time later. Revan never did anything like this that I know of. (Once again, absence of proof is not proof of absence. And I believe any ancient Sith lord could defeat Yoda, with the exception of maybe Malak and Sion)

And for all of the Sith that you fight in the game, none of them are nearly as powerful as the Jedi Masters that Sidious fought (You honeslty can't compare them on an even scale. One has game stats meant to make them weak in a game where YOU ARE REVAN, and the others are movie characters whose accomplishments are minimal at best.)

, and these weaker Sith that Revan fought, I am pretty sure that he never fought four at the same time. (You are pretty sure? You mean to say you haven't seen in instance where he has done so, so you've concluded he hasn't. Faulty logic.)

I have changed my mind from my other post and think that Sidious might be able to beat Revan. Revan simply never did anything like killing four of the strongest Jedi Masters at the Jedi Temple at that time. (No, just emptied the Council chamber down to five seats out of what? Twenty or thirty?)

at least Revan has a mask to disguise his obscene face

Exactly. sid was beaten, only saved by Anakin.

1.Then, Revan learned from a whole bunch of masters while still a jedi. Then he discovered the knowledge of Malachor V, a whole academy of ancient sith knowledge. Later on he went to Korriban where he uncovered even more sith knowledge in the tombs. Then he finally discovered star forge, which required a whole lot of power to control.

Here we go, the forst point, Reavn had more knowledge of the Force cannot be denied. If u disagree, give me some good points, where Sidious could ammas more knowledge then Revan.

2. Expirience. He fought in the mandalorian wars, getting a great deal of expirience(and u cant tell me that he was not dueling, since in kotor, canderous says that Revan defeated the Mandalore himself, which wasnt a ship duel). He then fought a whole lot of jedi and sith, some deadly beasts, and 3 sith lords.(Pall, Malak and Bandon). he slaughtered the whole sith academy on korriban.
Who did Palpatine kill? A few jedi and thats it.

3. Power. Well, a lot of points are from the previous. Palpatine never killed as much jedi as Revan did, and he havent slaughtered a Sith academy, where were a lot of powerfull masters. Then, killing all of the ppl on the star forge, that is something palpatine could have never done.
Also, Kreia said, that looking at Revan, was the same as looking at the Force itself, yet none of the jedi council never felt anything like that towards Palpatine.

Now, give me some points that nullify those i stated be4, and i shall admit that revan isnt more powerfull

your completely right of course, but remember Revan also killed Yusani. The best Echani duellist, and they are the best duellist's their are.

Thank u for the support.

Do not know much more. Getting KOTOR 2 soon tho!

Quote Janus, quoting me.

What I said is not in parenthasies.

"One of them, Mace Windu, being commonly thought to be better than Malak, (But is Mace better than Malak? You have all those stats... why don't you tell us? Although stats are strictly non-canon, it's about the only way we can compare the two since Malak's on-screen displays of fighting are minimal and he doesn't have a novel yet.)"


Sorry Janus I must quote you from another thread.
"Mace is a bad ass -watch yo mouth-... I have to vote the 'Du."
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332626&highlight=Mace+vs+Malak



"....Agen Kolar, who was supposed to be one of the best Jedi with a lightsaber at that time.(In a time of few Jedi, many of whom died in the firefight at Geonosis, which is pathetic...."

Sure it is pathetic. A whole 200 out of several thousand Jedi died at the battle of Geonosis. There are almost none left!


It also dosen't make any sense that the Sith keep getting weaker over time if they have to kill their master to graduate or whatever. I would think that their knowlege would increase over time and not the other way around. Do you mean to say that they can conquer the galaxy but not write down a technique to show to some other Sith fifty years later. Sorry Janus, but you keep contradicting yourself. On the thread I posted above Mace IS beating Malak. You even supported Mace there.


Also another Janus quote:

"(But Sidious had the advantage in that no one thought he would be that deadly. Also, his form as of yet is undeclared. It might be a whole new style)"

Or the make a a ton of sense that they were not expecting Sidious to be powerful because they only sent the four strongest Jedi at the Temple to arrest him. If they thought he was weak, that would be considered a waste of resources.


"Revan simply never did anything like killing four of the strongest Jedi Masters at the Jedi Temple at that time. (No, just emptied the Council chamber down to five seats out of what? Twenty or thirty?)"

Revan didn't personally empty the council chamber. It was his military forces and the Mandalorians that did that.


Revan killed what, three Sith Lords? Two of these Sith it turns out he had help from to other people to beat.


Sidious has done better lightsaber against lightsaber things.


Yoda also beat Revan in one of these threads. Yoda looses to Sidious in ep3.(he did fight a couple hundred clone troopers just before hand, but Janus, you even said that blasters are no match for a true Jedi. Also, you have shown nothing that is anymore than "probably"(which wouldn't hold up in court), that shows KOTOR-era Jedi are "about twice as powerful as post-Ruusan ones".

Sorry, but you keep saying unsupported facts. No proof that Revan is better.

Firs things, first... I did vote Windu in the battle against him and Malak, but for reasons other than I usually vote. I simply liked Mace better, and if I had gone on there spouting off about how an ancient Sith lord could spank the hell out of even Mace Windu I'd have half a dozen people down my throats. "Malak sux, I beat him with lvl 20 no pwrs lol" Notice I didn't really go out of my way to support Mace in any way, as is my usual. Also notice your own defense of Malak.... here...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335188&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=3

Second, I don't recall the number of Jedi alive during the time of the start of the Clone Wars. As of this post, I don't know, but I fully intend to find out. I find it doubtful that thousands lived at this time. And notice I never said even a majority of the Jedi died at Geonosis, because I know that much. What I do know is that the majority of Form VI users died there.

Third point... Notice that the Council was afraid to approach even Malak with four or more Jedi masters, and if you try and argue that the four in that room (Aside from Mace) were even close to the same level as a Jedi of those times, you're insane. Kit Fisto, for one, while a capable fighter, was rather easily bested by Assajj Ventress (See The Cestus Deception). And from what everyone has to say about her, she's an insignificant flea. Tiin, from what I recall, isn't a saber god, as is the other person whose name and purpose in life eludes me. Really, the other Jedi Masters were a formality. Mace was the only one there who could hold his own, and even then Mace's experience in battle and warfare was a fraction of even the Exile's.

Fourth point, I concede. It was poorly worded to say he emptied the Council, since while he did in a sense, it was not through direct combat that I or you know of. Most likely the majority of those absent council members were killed in combat or worse, captured. There are numerous high level Sith who don't warrant much attention in Revan's ranks. I would be curious to see how many were old masters.

Fifth point, Revan really doesn't need help to destroy anything he faces in KOTOR, game mechanics aside, simply because of who he is. You have seen the force witch Kreia and Malak and Sion, all of whom could not contend with Revan. Revan was Dark Lord of the Sith over hundreds, thousands of Sith and fallen Jedi. He was undisputed leader in the ways of the ancient Sith, who believe in taking any chance they can to eliminate a weak leader, despite having leagues of competition. Sidious had the brainwashed Maul, the misled and easily cowed Dooku, and the whiny Anakin as his competition. I could see if he used Exar Kun's balls for cuffs and rode around on NJO Luke's back, but his competition was nonexistant.

Yoda beating Revan on one of these threads is chalked up to Yoda/movie favortism and those occassional people who are loath to accept that a video game EU character would be better than Yoda who does the ninja spider in AOTC. It's been said by even people who don't care for Revan that poll results aren't an indication of power but rather popularity and opinion, neither of which make Yoda or Mace better than their perspective enemies. I'm rather surprised Sidious is losing as of the time of this writing.

Here's some way of explaining to you again why a Jedi of Revan's time would have to be a better duellist, warrior, and adept than would one of post-Ruusan (Read: No Sith in sight anywhere, no lightsaber enemies to be had period.) timeperiod.

In medieval times, when fighting with a sword and armor was not a pastime but was a way of life, boys who would later grow up to be martial men would practice first against their peers, and then against real enemies in the field. I want you to imagine the amount of perfection in the swing of a soldier who has swung a broadsword since he was say, 8. Imagine every day of your life practising for easily 4 hours with that heavy blade... learning its weight, its touch... Teaching your body to accomodate it to suit your needs. Then take it into battle and fight for your life. Wouldn't you say this soldier has a level of understanding about the principles of using that blade that you could never understand? And imagine, his arms were probably twice as thick as yours, and he could swing that blade faster than you can swing a fly swatter, while on horseback, one on side and than the other.

Now imagine someone from roughly 1500s... or early 1600s... when the emphasis was off of melee combat thanks to the invention of the crossbow and now the budding of gunpowder. Swords existed, and rather light cuirasses and helmets can be found on soldiers of the day. But the skill, the talent needed is not anywhere near the level of that medieval warrior. There is no swordplay with a heavy weapon or rather, weapons for the majority of childhood and in to adult life. There is no extensive melee combat experience on par with the bloody, messy and chaotic battles of the earlier era. And thus the skill, while perhaps even ranging towards good, will never rival that of the old warrior.

No, but he was about to crush three and Bastila, or rather, this is commonly accepted. And you seem to allow commonly accepted theories as fact.



So? This is irrelevant. Despite the fact that Malak wasn't the most powerful being that Revan defeated, Darth Sidious didn't defeat Mace Windu. I don't see your point here.



Isn't Darth Rage a SuperShadow.com fabrication? If so, and I think it is considering I couldn't find a single thing that either isn't from SuperShadow itself or just regurgitated from it, then this is irrelevant.



True. Sidious didn't personally destroy the Jedi Order either. It was his pre-programmed clone trooper masses that did it.



One was weaker than Malak, whom Revan killed on his own despite the fact that Malak was draining other Jedi for additional power. Ajunta Pall's spirit was destroyed without need of the two teammates.



Sidious has killed three Jedi masters and matched one. Revan has killed a Mandalorian clan leader, an Echani duelist champion, an entire academy of Sith and three Sith lords. And all this is the minimum.



So?

You're using too many irrelevant ideas and a SuperShadow reference. Come now.

Since pretty much everything i wanted to say is said already i won't reply to anything but this..



Wrong, at least 7 council members followed Revan to war, this is assuming there were only 12 at Coruscant at the end of the Mandelorian wars. According to disciple they all survived and followed Revan.

Revan did not kill them sure probably... But they did follow him and they were weaker then him...

I say probably because for as far as disciple says one followed the Sith unitl the very end until Malak was dead. Meaning that the three apprentices Malak calls to kill Revan could very well have been Masters. Of course that is just a guess, but who knows its not impossible. And you seem to like guesses

Damn dude, anytime you reference Supershadow other than calling him a dueche you lose.

Oh yeah Wanderer Im not gonna go find it but you wrote in an earlier post that Sideous didnt prove his maintain life ability......what about when he laid his hands upon Vader and willed him to live? Doesnt that qualify?

So what? Bastila kept Revan alive when he was wounded by a galatic cruiser hit right next to him...

Thats Bastila a weak young Jedi Padawan who is nothing... Absolutly nothing. An opponent that can easily be beaten especially at that time, and is only important because of her battle meditation. If she did not have it, she would have been just like Random Jedi #3 that dies on the Star Forge.. Nothing but cannon food

One. Bastila had potential. "She will be a great Jedi" Master Vandar says.

Two. We don't actually know what happens to Revan. Only what Kreia says.

Three. Don't trust Supershadow. He is a loser.

And Four. Mace Windu actually beats Sidious. So Sidious kills three Masters and then gets disarmed. You just can't beat Revan!

When does he do that? If he does, he probably does it in RotS and I'm not aware of everything in the movie; I haven't done more with the script than gloss over it. If he does, sorry.

darth rage??

oh my God......

sorry about Darth Rage. Just felt that I would through out somecrap and see if anyone else would notice. Won't do that again.

Sidious has the Kyber crystals. These things are very powerful. With one, Luke in "Splinter of the Minds Eye" cut off Vader's arm. Obi-wan influenced his body during the fight, but it still Luke beat Vader in a fight before he even went to Dagobah to learn from Yoda the first time.

Anyway, Sidous needs some support in this fight. I know Revan would probably win, but still, Sidious would definatly a harder fight than anyone he has fought before.

SIDIOUS

Originally posted by Darth Trinew
SIDIOUS

You didn't read a damn thing, did you?

On facts Revan wins, almsot too easily, like there's no point comparing them.
But movie buffs will always say Sidious, just cos they've never heard of Revan!

Another thing, Sidious couldn't even turn Luke. I don't want arguments like 'but he's the chosen one's son etc' because if Sidious wanted to turn Luke he would have done.

My how opinions have changed over time . . .

You decided to bump a decade old thread to publicly reflect that people's opinions change over time?

xD

Ant, how is the respect thread coming along?

Did you just decide to re-do it altogether?

Sidious rapes.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
My how opinions have changed over time . . .

If anyone doubts that the Sheevites won, observe.

Sheevites are delusional over a fictitious overlord who has extremely poor body posture. He needs physical therapy ASAP.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You decided to bump a decade old thread to publicly reflect that people's opinions change over time? These are some pretty noteworthy changes . . .at least to me anyway.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
These are some pretty noteworthy changes . . .at least to me anyway.

Yeah, it's not just a question of whether people's opinions change, but to what degree, in which direction, etc. Ant's attempt to look badass by mocking it is really bizarre lmao.

It's a cycle no different than the struggle between the Jedi and Sith. Sure, Sheevites have the majority now, but 10 years from now, I suspect the opinions of today will seem . . . heretical.

If Legends versus debating is still a thing, maybe, but I actually think the antedeluvians are permanently a thing of the past; I don't see how they're going to come back.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If Legends versus debating is still a thing, maybe, but I actually think the antedeluvians are permanently a thing of the past; I don't see how they're going to come back. Unless Revan's spirit comes back resurrected and Exar Kun's a bunch of powerful individuals, yeah, I don't see it happening.

Well I mean there's still room for Bioware to wank Valkorion and co., but the Kun's are basically lost.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well I mean there's still room for Bioware to wank Valkorion and co., but the Kun's are basically lost. I was referring to when Exar Kun stomped Luke and the NJO as a spirit.

Though if he does it to Luke it would probably be labeled as an inconsistency, while impressive.

Watch him come back as a spirit and ragdoll Abeloth or some shit, raising the bar.

Legends probably isn't continuing, so there's no chance of something like that happening unless if Bioware resurrects Kun's spirit and has him blow up a moon or something.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Legends probably isn't continuing, so there's no chance of something like that happening unless if Bioware resurrects Kun's spirit and has him blow up a moon or something. ....I was referring to Revan replicating Kun's feat on a bigger scale.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
It's a cycle no different than the struggle between the Jedi and Sith. Sure, Sheevites have the majority now, but 10 years from now, I suspect the opinions of today will seem . . . heretical.

In fairness, the facts support Sheev tremendously.

We still got one or two more seasons of GGkorion. Something tells me he's going to outstrip Sidious, as I was saying back in 2014

Originally posted by SunRazer
In fairness, the facts support Sheev tremendously.

By coincidence, more or less. A lot of the people who were writing for Revan wanted him to be stronger than Palpatine, but mysteriously failed. It's not like there was a concerted effort by the mythos to pen Palpatine as more powerful, although certainly a sizable minority agreed to write about how he is.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
By coincidence, more or less. A lot of the people who were writing for Revan wanted him to be stronger than Palpatine, but mysteriously failed. It's not like there was a concerted effort by the mythos to pen Palpatine as more powerful, although certainly a sizable minority agreed to write about how he is.

There's a lot of sourcebooks penning him as the most powerful Sith Lord/dark side practitioner. It's been going on since the early 90's, and nobody's dared to contradict that.

Yeah, I mean with regard to feats, a lot of Sidious's best weren't written by the same people who wrote that he was the most powerful, and they probably didn't carefully vet them to make sure that they'd converge on that conclusion. But I guess the random nature of feats wars is just a common facet of these debates.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, I mean with regard to feats, a lot of Sidious's best weren't written by the same people who wrote that he was the most powerful, and they probably didn't carefully vet them to make sure that they'd converge on that conclusion. But I guess the random nature of feats wars is just a common facet of these debates.

In fairness, DE's killed off all of the competition until Valkorion, lol.

So many old avatars and usernames.

Maybe I just root for the underdog but I used to support Papa Palpatine along with Lighty and a few others. But these days, I side a bit more with the older Sith like Bane, Kun and Revan.

It's small wonder, though - I've actually played KOTOR now. Revan is "me." No wonder I (and a lot of other KOTOR players) want him to be da strongest.

If nothing else, he has a way better design than Palpatine.

How the **** can anyone make an argument for Revan winning? I'd love to hear it. Sidious > Revan in force, knowledge, power, lightsaber skill. How the hell does he lose?