Jesus and Reincarnation.

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debbiejo
Does the Bible teach reincarnation???

www.near-death.com/origen.html

and

www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html


Seems interesting....Could the early church fathers have changed the scriptures from this belief?? If the early fathers wanted to control the people, they would have to insert "Hell" and everlasting torment, but if reincarnation was true...The people would have no fear of death and punishment for not doing the churchs will...

It's interesting.

Jedi_KnightAlly
Quite intresting, i've only had time to read the top one, but still it was intresting to read about how christianity is so different to its initial form.
Sounds as if christianity is like a game of chinese whispers, its changed this much in its course of travelling through time, goodness knows how much it'll have changed in a few hundred years.

PrinceofBlades
Well, from what I'm taught, Jesus ressurected. Not reincarnated. He conqured death "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:55). Also Hell was always talked about as the place of "weeping an knashing of teeth."

Lord Follen
Well It DID belive in reicarnation but then the took it out but did you know at one time they only let you have sex 2 months out of the whole year and yet you wernt alowed to enjoy it!!!

And the Devil is all made up from the God of Hunting from the old Religon which is whar Wicca is based off and of which i follow for im wiccan

Jedi_KnightAlly
Question, if your wiccan, what are your beliefs? and can u do any cool black magic??? lol sorry but that wld kick ass.

Lord Follen
Ummm well im still practicing spells and stuff but im not that good and i have tons of books im reading and it would take too long to explain but to sum it up we belive in the God of hunting and the Goddess of Fertility.
Its basicaly the Old religon which CAME BEFOR Christianity and that christanity was against it and took the God and called it the devil which just so happens to of had horns!!!!!!!!

Jedi_KnightAlly
Lol, i wouldn't feel bad about christianity not liking it, christians don't even like themselves,
"you touched yourself when u went to the toilet!!!!"
"eh i kinda had to..."
"Damn u to hell forever!!!!!"

Sounds kinda cool.

Lord Follen
I know i finally found the right religon for me because ive been jumping around untill i found somthing i like and Wicca fits everything i belive in!!!

What are you??

Jedi_KnightAlly
To be totally honest, i'm clueless about what i actually believe, I used to be strongly christian, but i started thinking and realised i just don't believe it, I reckon theres some sort of god, but i really don't rate the bible and its teaching's high as a possibility. I don't really know what i would be classed as because i'm not an aetheist. I've just seen that much stuff that shows that christians in particular are so easily able to change their beliefs, alter their teachings anythign really just to try to remain popular. Kinda sad that a religon has to continously change its teachings just to survive. But i hope to find something at some point that suits what i believe in.

Lord Follen
well i hope you find one but what id=s scary was when i swiched to wicca i started to where alot of black!!!!!!!!!!!
but i must agree i think it is sad becaue it is basicaly streachingit full of lies!!!!

PrinceofBlades
Choose your words wisely Lord Follen, I am Catholic, let alone Christinan. From the time that you've known, would you agree with the previous statment?

debbiejo
Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Well, from what I'm taught, Jesus ressurected. Not reincarnated. He conqured death "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:55). Also Hell was always talked about as the place of "weeping an knashing of teeth."


Hell as a place of burning torment was instituted by the early Roman church when they brought in the pagans. The OT doesn't mention such a place, why?? The Jews don't believe it, why?? Because it was started back with the Babylonians and moved through the different pagan religions...Hell, or sheol, pit..etc..are all referring to the grave..The weeping and knashing of teeth can be taken a few ways. First you have to be sure that it wasn't added later by the church, as there were aprox. 100 or so different writings that were being considered. Only 4 were accepted. Others were also altered. It could also be that when someone died, everyone was in a place of weeping and knashing of teeth because of their sorrow. It could also be considered regrets on their life could of been...You need to trace "Hell", back to it historical roots...

Jury
I don't believe in Reincarnation... simply because it's unbiblical.

smile

debbiejo
I'm not saying one way or another..But did you read the article?

Jury
I read the Bible.

Jackie Malfoy
Originally posted by debbiejo
Does the Bible teach reincarnation???

www.near-death.com/origen.html

and

www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html


Seems interesting....Could the early church fathers have changed the scriptures from this belief?? If the early fathers wanted to control the people, they would have to insert "Hell" and everlasting torment, but if reincarnation was true...The people would have no fear of death and punishment for not doing the churchs will...

It's interesting.

Acording to a friend of mined christens and Cathloics do not believe in Reincarnation.A near death experise does not to me sound the same or is like Reincreation in any way.JM smile

finti
I wonder what minerals they are labeled as though cool stick out tongue

Lord Follen
Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
Choose your words wisely Lord Follen, I am Catholic, let alone Christinan. From the time that you've known, would you agree with the previous statment?

Well what i ment was lies to non belivers? I guess like what i beliven makes it a lie i dint mean the other way. There is also the fact that they are all cometitve to one another if you know what i mean.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Jedi_KnightAlly
Question, if your wiccan, what are your beliefs? and can u do any cool black magic??? lol sorry but that wld kick ass.
"Cool black magic"?

Wiccans have no power. They might think they can do all sorts of things like summoning spirits to obey them, but they can't. All I've read about witches and their supposed powers is summed up by their responses: "I can do such-and-such, but I won't do it just to prove that I can."

Uh-huh. Like the aura-seers and other psychics. The Amazing Randi doesn't appreciate them or Wiccans.

Jedi_KnightAlly
Cool black magic? lol you ever played final fantasy games? try and tell me thats not cool black magic. ice, fire and thunder magic lol. then summon a monster to kick some ass lol. That would really kick ass.

Lord Follen
WHAT EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS TO COMPLICATED FOR THE LIKES OF YOU THEN I GUESS mad mad mad mad

finti
yeah just like the christians then, who thinks there is power in their faith aad so on

just like the cristians who cant prove the powers they believe and cling too in either

uh-huh like the faithful christians the "amazing" roll eyes (sarcastic) jesus doesnt appreciate his deity or faith in him being questioned

Lord Follen
YOU have it all wrong to let you know!!!

debbiejo
Originally posted by FeceMan
"
Uh-huh. Like the aura-seers and other psychics.


There have been pictures taken of auras, and science has proven the abilities of psychics...Infact...The FBI has trained people in remote viewing to find subs amongst other things...All Facts.. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Follen
oooo i like you!!!!

Jedi_KnightAlly
Still think it wld be cooler to use black magic on them but that sounds kinda class.

PrinceofBlades
All power comes from God. Whomever uses the power for evil, finds it taken away. Just like the one who uses power for good, find it strengthened for him.

debbiejo
All power does come from God..It just depends on how you use it...but it still comes from God...He created all things, visible and invisible...

PrinceofBlades
but for it to be invisible is to "be not their present"

debbiejo
I'm not sure what you mean...

PrinceofBlades
It's supposed to be confusing, unless your alread confused, than it makes since.

debbiejo
Maybe you should lay down... wacko

PrinceofBlades
Or should I lay up if i'm already down. Would this count if I was right side laying up, or up side laying down?

FeceMan
Originally posted by finti
yeah just like the christians then, who thinks there is power in their faith aad so on

just like the cristians who cant prove the powers they believe and cling too in either

uh-huh like the faithful christians the "amazing" roll eyes (sarcastic) jesus doesnt appreciate his deity or faith in him being questioned
Except that Christians make no claims to power--I have no illusions about what I can and cannot do. I can't miraculously heal wounds, give sight to the blind, or bring the dead to life. And at what point in time did Jesus say that he didn't want the Christian faith to be questioned?
Originally posted by debbiejo
There have been pictures taken of auras, and science has proven the abilities of psychics...Infact...The FBI has trained people in remote viewing to find subs amongst other things...All Facts.. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Yes, the FBI has trained psychics. In fact, there was a huge investment in it. There was only one problem: it was a flop. And I do not see how a camera could see an aura around a person if we cannot; sounds like a photoshop job or defect to me. But feel free to prove me wrong.

FeceMan
Double post. Grrr.

debbiejo
Photos of auras have been taken and many people can sense them along with see them..It has been documented..Anyone can train themselves to be aware of them...

During WWII psychics were used to find submarines...They found 10 out of ten...100%...They are still training them today...

As far as only Jesus healing people of their afflictions, Many people can and do do it...It's a process of training yourself. It's a gift that God has given all of the human race...

FeceMan
Originally posted by debbiejo
Photos of auras have been taken and many people can sense them along with see them..It has been documented..Anyone can train themselves to be aware of them...

During WWII psychics were used to find submarines...They found 10 out of ten...100%...They are still training them today...

As far as only Jesus healing people of their afflictions, Many people can and do do it...It's a process of training yourself. It's a gift that God has given all of the human race...
I don't mean to be a bitchy cynic, but I'm not believing any of that unless you can provide credible truth. I do not and will not believe in miracle healings unless I experience one myself.

debbiejo
Do you want names and books??? There are many out there, and many that happen in alternative healing practices...Ask around..Or do you want people to talk to that have been healed?? Their have been articles written about them and on TV programs..And again books..and also in churches...New Ages Centers...Shamans...etc...Infact I was watching a program a few nights ago on "Ripley's" A man who was able to strengthen the energy fields in his hands and was able to knock people unconscious. The paramedics were there and had 4 men wired and monitored their heart..etc...This same technique I saw for myself and even experienced it in a Pentecostal church...The laying of hands...It is very powerful and knocks you down...Well this guy did it and he wasn't in a church...and other religious and nonreligious groups use it for heeling's..Like I said before, we all have energy fields that science has confirmed..some can see it, it's called an aura..You can train yourself to feel it. When you understand how your energy field affects the health of your body you can manipulate it to your health...Check out what reiki healers do and other hands on healers like Healing Touch, which is now taught worldwide in hospitals for the nurses to use. It is also open to the public to learn for a few hundred dollars...Do a few searches on these topics, read a few books..check out some hospitals, get info from some alternative healing centers....Then you can see and experience it for yourself...maybe even become a healer yourself..

BTW..I'm sorry you don't know anyone who has been healed so that you can see that it happens..I on the other hand know some people that have been healed.

Jedi_KnightAlly
Never argue with a woman, you'll only lose badly.....

Anyhoo, Debbiejo's got some intresting points

FeceMan
Originally posted by debbiejo
Do you want names and books??? There are many out there, and many that happen in alternative healing practices...Ask around..Or do you want people to talk to that have been healed?? Their have been articles written about them and on TV programs..And again books..and also in churches...New Ages Centers...Shamans...etc...Infact I was watching a program a few nights ago on "Ripley's" A man who was able to strengthen the energy fields in his hands and was able to knock people unconscious. The paramedics were there and had 4 men wired and monitored their heart..etc...This same technique I saw for myself and even experienced it in a Pentecostal church...The laying of hands...It is very powerful and knocks you down...Well this guy did it and he wasn't in a church...and other religious and nonreligious groups use it for heeling's..Like I said before, we all have energy fields that science has confirmed..some can see it, it's called an aura..You can train yourself to feel it. When you understand how your energy field affects the health of your body you can manipulate it to your health...Check out what reiki healers do and other hands on healers like Healing Touch, which is now taught worldwide in hospitals for the nurses to use. It is also open to the public to learn for a few hundred dollars...Do a few searches on these topics, read a few books..check out some hospitals, get info from some alternative healing centers....Then you can see and experience it for yourself...maybe even become a healer yourself..

BTW..I'm sorry you don't know anyone who has been healed so that you can see that it happens..I on the other hand know some people that have been healed.
Sure, I would very much like to read more about this.

debbiejo
If you want it explained to you how all this is possible first, read the book I have mentioned before, "The Holographic Universe." Then you will understand the mechanics of it.

I will also post some other books and info.

There is also a scientific site that studies this phenomenon. It was started by Astronaut Edgar Mitchell of the Apollo 14. Started in 1971. www.noetic.org

www.davidmorehouse.com has worked with the CIA in remote viewing..I haven't look at his site, but did have his name and found the site.

finti
but you believe in a god without your so called credible truth?

FeceMan
Originally posted by finti
but you believe in a god without your so called credible truth?
My proof is His word. And I should not have said "truth", I should have said "evidence".

finti
same difference, it is still a double set of morals

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
but you believe in a god without your so called credible truth?

But there is more proof that the synchronises and coincidences that could be of a higher intelligence then none at all.

finti
oh really, well examples would be nice

PrinceofBlades
Look around you, do you honestly you are the product of a "chance explosion". And if so, who provided the explosives or the detonator, the catalyst of there was one? Who was your parents parents? And theirs and theirs and so on. Everything had a beginning, but there had to be someone to start that beginning. Think about, it's highly iloogical if something were to be able to create itself, but not be a supreme being in it of itself. If you had the ability to create something, does that not give you the right to rule it?

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
oh really, well examples would be nice

Synchroncity is a situation where there is no apparent casual connection between 2 events, nevertheless a meaningful relationship exists between the 2. It's a link between our inner world and our outer world. It shows us that things just don't happen accidentally, that there are energetic relationships between the two. When you are out of synch, you tend to repeat the same situation over and over again until you've learned the lesson from it. When things fall into place, it seems a new door opens...It is always occurring and it is not always obvious unless you look for it...

There are so many examples that happen everyday to me, that some might think are coincidences, but they are not. There is an intelligence to it. Even when I have a question, I look and listen through out my day. I pay attentions to everything I hear, see, feel accidental or on purpose, and answers seem to come. It might be in a dream, though dreams are in symbols. For instance I had some reoccurring dreams about 8 years ago. Very vivid ones. Driving a big boat on the road and falling over something and dieing. Well, just lately I was driving a huge van and thought, wow, this is like driving a boat. I hated it. It was so sluggish...I instintly remembered the dreams from 8 years ago. I took another way home where I didn't have to go over any bridges or by many semi truck. I brought the van in that day to get it looked at and was told that something connected to my steering was about to wear through! If it would of busted, I would of lost my ability to steer....Dreams work like that...But there are so many things that I can see answers to all day long. There is something invisible that connects everyone. Haven't you ever had the feeling that someone was staring at you only to look up and see that someone was? Or you staring at someone and then they look up at you? There are many examples of this connectedness to everything. Quantum is merging with metaphysics and it's an interesting science...I just quickly looked up a site that might be interesting.

www.fusionanomaly.net
Einstein had done, from what I've read many experiments with this connectedness with himself. They laughed at him then, but it's becoming a reality now..

Everything is connected to wave forms to each other....Science has demonstrated it over and over again...Everything reacts with everything else...I gave an example of a plant being hooked up to a le detected awhile back, but if you remember, when the scientist was THINKing ONLY of burning one leaf to see if the plant would react. It did! Just by his thought of doing it. This has been repeated also along with many such experiments...Metaphysics is the reality of everything having a frequency and wave particles. They all mesh and blend and have life. Even the invisible..So, there is a consciousness or intelligence to everything. It can't function any other way...

finti
now put a god in the same argument and then tell me why it is logical that this supreme being create him/her/itself.
And if had the ability to created something I would have created it as a benifit to all, not to rule it.
And to answer Look around you, do you honestly you are the product of a "chance explosion". And if so, who provided the explosives or the detonator, the catalyst of there was one?, yes just as sound as thaty something that has always been present, why is it that evolution has to have a begining but god dont?



instinct or just pure luck, no divine intervention

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti


instinct or just pure luck, no divine intervention


Maybe if you really want to no you could do a search yourself on quantum or related such stuff. If you're brave enought to look outside YOUR box, you'll take a chance. If not, then just keep cozy. big grin

www.icreatereality.com had a neat e-book

www.silvaultramind.org is a cool way to change your reality that is free online audio.... cool I did it.....

finti
my box is built they way I want it

debbiejo
Mine has a view.....

finti
my box is greater than x big grin

debbiejo
My box is way bigger, has a view and I can throw parties in it.

finti
yeah but you have more to clean then so mine is way more effective......simply the best...uhh I hate that song sick

debbiejo
I have male servants clean up my box... yes Oh yes, oh yes...
Way bigger, better, and smells good too.

But if you like your box....well.....

finti
i got females to clean mine.............the box too

debbiejo
Little leprechauns.

finti
well some refer to it as a leprechaun eek!

PrinceofBlades
Originally posted by finti
now put a god in the same argument and then tell me why it is logical that this supreme being create him/her/itself.
And if had the ability to created something I would have created it as a benifit to all, not to rule it.
And to answer Look around you, do you honestly you are the product of a "chance explosion". And if so, who provided the explosives or the detonator, the catalyst of there was one?, yes just as sound as thaty something that has always been present, why is it that evolution has to have a begining but god dont?

Let us assume there is a God, ok. You being his creation, a minority to his supreme being, do you honestly think that you can become greater than He who created you? Lets give you an example, shall we? Let's give you the title of "creator", and you "create" a plant out of nothing, literally. After giving the plant the knowledge it needs to survive, does that plant have the power to usurp your title? The plant can "make" life, but never create. For the product can not be the producer, just like the creation can never be the creator.

The point is the plant can never be like it's "master" in thought, action, anything. Especially if that plant poked its master with a thorn, having the master always disappointed with the plants actions. Until the day the master becomes a plant himself, teaches the plant the error of its ways, how to live a good life, and later die for that plant so that the plant can return to the master's presence.

God was always there. But our feeble minds can not possibly grasp the magnitude that is God. That is the root of doubt, heresy, deception, lies. It is in the fact that we do not stop at the thought of "faith". We must hunger for more. For just like hunger brought death and sin in the world, fasting will save us. And I say this metaphorically.

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
well some refer to it as a leprechaun eek!


OH...lucky charms..eh?

finti
here we go, yeah that is soooooo logical, but everything has to have a begining.
So we are feeble minded when it comes to god, is this the best you can come up with, we dont understand it when it comes to god, but we sure as hell understand everything else?
If this god is so perfect howcome is it that he/she/it f*ucked up with the creation then. A perfect omnipotent omniprecense being would never fail with its creation like this god of yours have.

t about the idea of god there is no doubt in my mind at all about that idea

debbiejo
About creation...It could honestly be meant as a metaphor....

Adam and Eve where spirits who partook of the fruit of the knowledge of being human and was casted out of the spirit world, heaven, or whatever you want to call it. They are working by the sweat of their brow because they are now human, and eve suffers with labor in having children cause now she is also human. Now they can no longer enter their past existence shown by the angel with the flaming sword who blocks the way. This view would be our existence before we enter our bodies of course.

Lord Follen
Originally posted by debbiejo
Photos of auras have been taken and many people can sense them along with see them..It has been documented..Anyone can train themselves to be aware of them...

During WWII psychics were used to find submarines...They found 10 out of ten...100%...They are still training them today...

As far as only Jesus healing people of their afflictions, Many people can and do do it...It's a process of training yourself. It's a gift that God has given all of the human race...

Thats not nesisarily true about the god thing but you ONLY balive in A god when in wicca the GOD and GODDESS both give eveeryone in the world this power and also GOD suposably stis around in heven when in wicca the gods are alsound us and in ourselves!!! stick out tongue

debbiejo
REINCARNATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE BLIND MAN
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:1-2, NIV
The disciples wanted to know the reason for the man's blindness. They offered two possibilities to Jesus. Either the man was blind because of the sins of his parents or he was blind because he was reaping the fruit of his own sins (karma). If our souls do not exist prior to this birth and if the man was born blind, then when or where could he have committed the sins that caused his blindness? His soul would have existed prior to that birth and he would have been engaged in a corporeal setting with other people to commit sins against or with. In other words, the blind man had a previous life. This indicates that the pre-existence of the soul was a prevalent idea among the disciples, otherwise how could they have asked such an unusual question? Neither does Jesus ask them where they got such a strange idea. He does not marvel that they have presented him with such a foolish concept. Where did they get this idea? As we have seen in the "blind man" scripture and other scriptures, the concept of reincarnation was understood by Jesus and the disciples. They employed the concept in these discussions in a matter-of-fact way.
ELIJAH'S RETURN
Elijah the prophet is believed to have lived in the ninth century B.C.E. At the point of his death a fiery chariot with horses of fire took him in a whirlwind to heaven and he was seen no more (II Kings 2:11). Four hundred years later, Malachi closed the last lines of the Old Testament with a prophecy from God stating that God would send Elijah before the "great and terrible day of the Lord" comes (Malachi 4:5). The Jewish people were expecting Elijah to return as the necessary preface to signal the coming of the Messiah.

The disciples all felt that Jesus was the Messiah but they were puzzled. Where is Elijah? The disciples asked the Master about this and he told them that Elijah had already returned as John the Baptist. The first discussion of this is in Matthew, chapter 11.
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 11:11-15, NIV

The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. Matthew 17:10-13, NIV




The above scripture indicates that the disciples and Jesus believed in reincarnation. John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. In an attempt to fit these scriptures into the orthodox view of one-life-only, some believe that Elijah never died as we know it because he went up in a chariot of fire, thus discounting John the Baptist as an instance of reincarnation. Their thinking is that Elijah did inhabit John the Baptist but it was not rebirth because Elijah had never died. For this "discounting" to really work, the Baptist would need to have returned in the same fiery chariot as a grown man. However, he was clearly placed in the womb of a human mother after which he had a very mortal and common birth. Jesus said he was "born of woman" and in Luke 1:13-17, an angel tells John's father, Zacharias, that John will be born to his wife Elizabeth... "And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah." Others use this last line to say that John the Baptist was under the power of Elijah but was not the incarnation of Elijah. However, Jesus says in no uncertain terms that John is Elijah and not simply an ambassador of Elijah's power, "This is Elijah... He who has ears to hear let him hear" (Matthew 11:14-15). Also, Malachi does not say that Elijah will appear by proxy but that Elijah himself will return.
WHO IS THE SON OF MAN?
Yet another discussion between Jesus and the disciples underscores their belief in reincarnation.
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 16:15-16
The flow here seems to be that if a prophet were to appear he must be the incarnation of one of the prophets from the past and so Jesus is asking the disciples who the people think has incarnated as Jesus. The idea of the reincarnation of the prophets is taken for granted and the sole point of the question is to find out who the multitudes believe him to be. These scriptures indicate that, at least to Jesus and the disciples, the concept of reincarnation was common fare. Herod also heard that others were saying one of the prophets of long ago had reincarnated. This again indicates that such a belief in reincarnation was common at that time.
Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed, because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life. Luke 9:7-8, NIV

DigiMark007

debbiejo
Agreed...I just don't know how people can throw out all the experiences recorded...What would be so wrong with reincarnation? It's intriguing really.

DigiMark007
http://www.booksearchprice.com/522786_joseph- head_1199220078reincarnationaneastwestanthologycom
icbookonlinestore.html

A better site. If you scroll down it has not only a summary of Stephenson's work, but describes reincarnation as it exists in various cultures. Interestingly, it also details where reincarnation may have been present in early Christian thought (with writers like Origen).

debbiejo
Yes, and Origen was persecuting for that belief...I think, myself, he was on to something...It is interesting to note that the beliefs of others appear in ones arrival to Heaven...People see who they have worshiped or admired...Or angels...It's friendly and loving experience from what I've read...Thanks for the links...Hope they are read by eveyone and commented on.

markie
Originally posted by debbiejo
Hell as a place of burning torment was instituted by the early Roman church when they brought in the pagans. The OT doesn't mention such a place, why?? The Jews don't believe it, why?? Because it was started back with the Babylonians and moved through the different pagan religions...Hell, or sheol, pit..etc..are all referring to the grave..The weeping and knashing of teeth can be taken a few ways. First you have to be sure that it wasn't added later by the church, as there were aprox. 100 or so different writings that were being considered. Only 4 were accepted. Others were also altered. It could also be that when someone died, everyone was in a place of weeping and knashing of teeth because of their sorrow. It could also be considered regrets on their life could of been...You need to trace "Hell", back to it historical roots... Ezekial suggests that hell does not exist. Chapter 14 says indicates the wicked will die, not burn in hell.

finti
we all will die

debbiejo
Originally posted by markie
Ezekial suggests that hell does not exist. Chapter 14 says indicates the wicked will die, not burn in hell.

There are many passages that state that there is no hell, but a body only dies..The story of Job speaks of it.


Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: "Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell , and hide me till thy wrath pass?"# (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, "hell" was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.

Shakyamunison
I believe that Jesus went to Tibet during the missing years and learned Buddhism. I think he did teach reincarnation.

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
we all will die


Come on now....Happy Thoughts..

markie
Originally posted by FeceMan
I don't mean to be a bitchy cynic, but I'm not believing any of that unless you can provide credible truth. I do not and will not believe in miracle healings unless I experience one myself. 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

markie
Originally posted by debbiejo
There are many passages that state that there is no hell, but a body only dies..The story of Job speaks of it.


Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: "Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell , and hide me till thy wrath pass?"# (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, "hell" was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go. Christians make God sound like a sadist. I don't know if isaiah Talks about the devil or not but if it does even he will be brought to ashes. They say that passage has a two fold meaning but they agree it talks about the king of babalon too.

debbiejo
I've heard the the Torah has 3 different levels of meaning and can only be understood by reading Hebrew. For some that don't know..Torah is the first 5 bks. of the OT.

markie
Originally posted by FeceMan
"Cool black magic"?

Wiccans have no power. They might think they can do all sorts of things like summoning spirits to obey them, but they can't. All I've read about witches and their supposed powers is summed up by their responses: "I can do such-and-such, but I won't do it just to prove that I can."

Uh-huh. Like the aura-seers and other psychics. The Amazing Randi doesn't appreciate them or Wiccans. They have as nuch power as the people will give them. It's all mind control,It's based in the principle of believing. I think it's abuse of the power of the mind, Jesus said as a man believes in his heart so is he.

debbiejo
Originally posted by markie
I think it's abuse of the power of the mind, Jesus said as a man believes in his heart so is he.

That's an interesting quote cause...If a man thinks he can perform miracles, he can. And that's how we get many of our miracles today...Jesus was probably telling them the same just like when he said "If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain go into the sea, and it will....." What ever is in a mans heart..it will manifest. That's why he told them to "Chose the Kingdom"..
When you look at todays world, it's clear not many have chosen it.

debbiejo
http://www.spirit-works.net/spirit_speaksIII.htm

The Holy Bible, as we know it today, can be traced back to the fourth century A.D.

During that time, the emperor Constantine formed a council of historians and scholars (the Council of Nice).

The purpose of that council was to take all the loosely organized religious and historic traditions of the time and simplify them.

As a result of that council, many sacred documents concerning ancient mysteries and Jesus' teachings were modified, edited or secreted away for a privileged few (where they remain to this day).

The council produced a single document in A.D. 325... known today as the Holy Bible.

Many documents and historical writings have been edited out of our modern Bible... in addition to those deemed inappropriate by the Catholic Church in the fourth century.

In essence, much of today' Bible is someone else's version of what they want you to believe... and many fear-driven dogma's have resulted because of it.

Who invented the "we only have one life" dogma anyway? When did it happen? Why did it happen? God didn't invent it. It certainly wasn't Christ's idea.

BELIEVERS IN REINCARNATION...

- Plato (582-507 B.C.)
- Origen (185-254 A.D.)
- St. Clement of Alexandria (150-220 A.D.)
- St. Gregory (257-332 A.D.)
- St. Augustine (354-430 A.D.)


Sometime during the first 600 years of early Christianity, several major events happened...


Early references to reincarnation in the New Testament had been deleted in the fourth century by Emperor Constantine, when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

In the sixth century, the Second Council of Constantinople ruled that reincarnation was a false belief punishable by persecution and death.

At the same time, the Church and the Roman Emperors knew that the concept of prior lives would weaken and undermine their power over their followers since it would give these people too much time to achieve salvation... the threat of a Judgment Day and punishment by an angry God at the end of one's life, worked a lot better to control the masses.

The Roman Catholic church realized it would have more power and influence by becoming not only a religious organization, but a political one. As a result, the church formed powerful alliances with the Roman emperors.

Why did the church form these alliances with the Roman emperors? Because the emperors wanted to make sure that the people didn't riot and an organized religion that controlled the masses through fear could help to accomplish that.

Why did the emperors want to make sure there were no rebellions by the masses? Because the wanted an uninterrupted flow of taxes.

Echuu
Originally posted by debbiejo
Does the Bible teach reincarnation???

www.near-death.com/origen.html

and

www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html


Seems interesting....Could the early church fathers have changed the scriptures from this belief?? If the early fathers wanted to control the people, they would have to insert "Hell" and everlasting torment, but if reincarnation was true...The people would have no fear of death and punishment for not doing the churchs will...

It's interesting.

no

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by debbiejo
Does the Bible teach reincarnation???

www.near-death.com/origen.html

and

www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html


Seems interesting....Could the early church fathers have changed the scriptures from this belief?? If the early fathers wanted to control the people, they would have to insert "Hell" and everlasting torment, but if reincarnation was true...The people would have no fear of death and punishment for not doing the churchs will...

It's interesting.

Sure. Many belive that Jesus in fact was in India learning Buddhist and Hinduist philosophy, and his teachings got later corrupted.

But thats another thread im making. wink

cking
God reincarnated into Jesus as God in the flesh.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Echuu
no

Prove it.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Echuu
no

Yes....please prove it..

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Sure. Many belive that Jesus in fact was in India learning Buddhist and Hinduist philosophy, and his teachings got later corrupted.

But thats another thread im making. wink

I think you could be right.....and would that be a bad thing???? I think not if some people do their studies.

markie
Not that I believe this but somebody might be interested in this. http://www.sol.com.au/kor/8_01.htm
Contrary to popular Christian dogma, Christ did teach about Karma, reincarnation, self-realisation and the Divine Feminine as Holy Ghost -- God the Mother. Christ's teachings are more Eastern than the Churches would have us believe or would like to admit.

The two centuries after Christ, saw the Christian Gnostic teachings of spiritual awareness disseminated alongside the blind faith doctrines of Paul's formulation. In the third Century, the Roman Church's council of Nicaea acted to stamp out the Gnostics and their anti-dogmatic approch to spirituality.

The Gnostic's were declared heretical, their texts destroyed and the Gnostics themselves persecuted into extinction. However, a small amount of Gnostic teachings survived, hidden in caves or in watered-down form in other "heretical" texts (broadly labelled as "Apocrypha"wink.

Echuu
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Prove it.

Yeesh; YOU prove that it's real. You can't though can you? Just like I can't prove it isn't real. I'm just saying that I don't believe in it.

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