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Mace Windu vs. NJO Luke Skywalker.

If Mace Windu submits completly to Vapaad like he did against Palpatine, do you think he could beat Luke?

off course,and i hate Luke(balls fist)so i voted Mace(and off course Mace is badass)

and i have one question i only read manga and almost no western comics so i'd like to no what NJO means.I did read som comics that took place between TESB en ROTJ.With prince Xizor in a role as one of the major badguys.But it was dutch titled so it might be NJO.Dunno

I am not questioning your opinion or anything, but are you sure he would win by far?

Luke

i hate luke so fu*king much

*votes for mace without good reason*

I don't think Luke could contend with a fully trained Jedi Weaponsmaster and battle prodigy like Mace. His only hope would be to overwhelm Mace with the Force itself, if he could.

I am pretty sure Luke would win... i am not saying he is cooler or anything, but he would win the fight...

Luke, Mace will put up a good fight but that's pretty much it.

Otaku_Sith, the NJO is the New Jedi Order that Luke later established on Yavin IV. Its around 25 years after the battle of Yavin.

Luke would win. when you let the force flow through you, and truly let it take over you, the force will protect you. And the force is already more in favor of NJO Luke than Mace Windu. Mace would give Luke a rough and unpredictable battle, but he would still lose.

Luke is a Tool, and definitely the most un cool star wars character ever, including Jar Jar, but regardless, he is bad ass in NJO.

Windu, not being able to hold back the laughter at the astonishingly uncool Luke Skywalker he is fighting, will lose this battle.

Windu's Vaapad skills are only better against darksiders, Luke is far from the darkside as we all know.

If Luke allowed the living for to completely guide him and concentrated on nothing but the battle, his superior force powers would lead him to victory. However, it would b very very tough.

luke will waste mace. normal luke or not mace will put up a bad ass fight but lose.

luke will pwn mace

Luke according to EU is by far the most powerful ever...although he did join the darkside for a bit...if he was fighting mace during this period then it could be interesting...the darker more powerful the better for vapaad...more fuel for the fire as I understand it....? I will hold my vote for a day or two...to read whats written here

lol why u guys hate luke so much? He's such a great jedi master and Lucas does say he is the most powerful jedi that ever lived. But I did heard that Luke trained a guy that became even stronger than him. I think his name was Kronik or something like that

GL did not say Luke was the most powerful ever, he said he was the most powerful of his time and had a lot of potential...

But the most powerful ever? My ass...

Anyways what do most people have against Luke? I don't know, i know what i have against him though... Its not really him its just that by ROTJ he can't fight worth shit and he's still seen as the greatest fighter ever..

He fight's shit because back then ppl didnt know how to make good movies. And they sdidn't know how to make the stick glow so they look like lightsabers so they couldn't fight fast. The light sabers are like 1 and a half bigger then the usually ones and in the older version lukes lightsaber was like HUGGEEEEE

Thats not what I'm talking about...

He just can't fight worth shit, did you see him in ESB?? He does nothing and Vader owns him. In ROTJ Luke just gets lucky and attacks like an insane fool. Its not that the movies couldn't handle it, Luke just attacks like an insane fool hitting somewhere and accidentally hitting something. Thats all he does, thats the greatest Jedi fighter ever according to some... Really, really weak.

I'm not saying he's the greatest by that point. I admit he still lacks a lot of control and dedication. btw, the fact that they couldn't fight fast has a lot to do with how we view them now. Had they had the materials they had now, whose to say both Vader and Luke wouldn't have been twirling and whirling like duels in the PT

Luke becomes the greatest Jedi ever, and the most powerful force user the galaxy has ever seen. Look at who his father was and how quickly he responded to the force. He will surpass everyone, it just takes him a good 20-30 years after ROTJ

Maybe the fight in ESB would have been better but Luke would still have defeated Vader in ROTJ by going insane with rage...

Which brings me to another point, how come Luke is seen as the most powerful fighter ever, when many fighters are dead and a lot of knowledge is lost. There are new Jedi and new enemy's but they are no Jedi. Luke may have been incredible with the force but he never learned how to fight, at least not like others did. He lacked the teachers and the knowledge to learn that...

I have to say, I'm beginning to look more fondly at the ESB and RotJ duels. They just seem darker and more compelling. Like it's not just wizards hacking at each other, but like there's a mental battle too. It's so cool.

Luke is seen as eventually the best fighter because lightsaber skill comes from the force. When you allow the force to guide you, take complete control over you and become one with it, you're pretty hard to kill. That's why Obi-Wan defeats Anakin in ROTS, the force protects him because of the mindset he is in. And he's not as good with a saber or as powerful as Anakin, but his mindset is how he wins. Luke eventually attains Obi-Wan's mindset, with the powers Anakin would have had.

I agree that the OT duels are more dramatic, but that's also because it's "a time when a lightsaber is uncommon"

yep, i hate luke cuz of his ass sucking duels, and i dont care if they couldnt make a better saber. not my god damn fault. anyways, it also annoys me, how every1 says that luke is the best, yet all he does is swing his saber, like he is squashing a bug, then accidentaly hist Vaders arm, gets a moment of enlightment, throws away his saber and thats it. Luke is the best. best my ass, he's a lil pussy f*cker.

he isn't the best in ROTJ. He is the best alive in the NJO. He can control gravity with his mind. Also, he kills an estimated 1000 Vong during the attack on Shimera's palace. Master Ikrit, a master from the old order, had trouble with like 30. Also, ever heard of teachings? Luke found a holocron and learned a lot from that, and Leia also found a holocron on the Clone Palpatine's body after he was dead. Luke also was fighting a war since he was eighteen, and that is more than the Clone Wars and KOTOR-era Jedi can say. In NJO, he is probably able to beat anyone. GL even said in one onterview, he becomes the greatest Jedi alive.

Exactly, he becomes, not is in the movies.

Still, Mace can find the shatterpoint of even inanimate objects via his ability. When I complete Shatterpoint I will have a better perspective, but honestly I think if Mace can stay alive long enough, he can find Luke's weakness. May his hip replacement?

lol

But dude, Luke buils castles with his mind, Mace can call a lightsaber to him,
WOO

Obi Wan defeated Grievious, Maul, and Anakin. It can happen.

True, but those are all opponents who were arrogant and filled with hatred.
Luke isn't, therfore his mind is more composed for battles

Not necessarily...

Has Luke ever faced a fully trained Jedi Master? Not that I remember, what Luke faced were opponents powerful yes but no Jedi. Luke his technique will be based on defeating that, but a fully trained Jedi Master. I think the technique used by Mace will give Luke a run for his money

it will, but Luke will outlast and win

If he can keep on blocking...

Luke needs the force a lot here, to be able to stand up against a Lightsaber master with superior training? Its going to be very hard for him, very hard. His only chance is keeping Mace away from him using force techniques but the second the two would use their lightsabers the fight would be decided

well fishy it is ,,get over it

I'm sorry but NJO Luke will defeat anyone. However, Darth Nihilus is the only person I think that could possibly take him down.

Darth Nihilus isn't really fair now is it? He will kill everybody

But it is, he existed in the star wars universe.
I mean Luke has more force power than anyone before him and that's not really fair, yet he still fights people

I dunno. Take a ysalamari (stupidest thing ever) to dampen your own Force presence and then whip out a vibroblade.

But NJO luke can be argued about Nihilus on the other hand just wins

well if you're goin off saber skills alone i'd go with mace but luke is the most powerful jedi ever(scond if anikin wouldn't have become vader) and when i say jedi i mean good guy not including sith cause i think nagasadow and revan are equal with luke in midichlorian counts and force stuff. so i'd go with luke even though i want mace to win if it actually ahppened luke would to me anyways.

Fishy you need to get a reality check. Luke Skywalker had so little training from Yoda on Dagobah and still defeats the strongest Sith Lord to ever live. Darth Vader fell under his blows...He is one of the strongest Jedi ever...

Luke would win hands down

Yeah, at least pair Mace up with like ROTS Obi-Wan or something and then you have a real battle.

I puppose

Here's what I think of all this NJO Luke worshipping...

lol

Luke Skywalker...

Is it our fault that we believe NJO Luke to be the best ever? No. That's just the way the movies and books have set him up to be. He's a raging badass who pimps it on the light side.

The books, the movies never have...

Fishy you must be illiterate and blind.

"I warn you not to underestimate my power." ROTJ Luke Skywalker.

You must be stupid and blind. Watch ROTJ. Luke is a pansy ass *****. He has no control. He never did. He kneeled before Palpatine in the post-ROTJ novels and became his apprentice because he knew he couldn't beat him. And Mace whupped Sidious' ass!

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Fishy you must be illiterate and blind.

"I warn you not to underestimate my power." ROTJ Luke Skywalker.

Oh and that somehow proofs he is all powerful, okay let me quote somebody else

"I AM ALWAYS RIGHT" - fishy

See I say Luke loses, I win because i'm always right

Think of an argument or stop wasting all our time

And who's saying that? Luke's saying that. He's being cocky. So that has no legitimacy in this arguement. Goodbye.

Oh please...
Topic here says "NJO Luke" vs Mace Windu.
So why you are discussing ROTJ Luke ?

Even with all yet written EU literature it's impossible to tell what Luke learned and where he learned it from ROTJ on to NJO. He could have been teached by Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Anakin since they all remained as spirits within the force. He had holocrons. He had a book written by Obi-Wan with unknown lessons. And we can estimate that he has developed his lightsaber skills far beyond what he displayed in ROTJ, because he had people to train against.

And if you want to take arguments from the films:
- ANH to ROTJ is just 4 years. So 4 years to develop from "first contact with the force" nobody to nearly Jedi Knight status. For a "normal" person this would be around 20 years of Jedi training.
- with the few weeks or month of training he was able to survive Vader, one year later he defeats Vader during the battle of Endor. Yes...of course only because of his anger but no matter how he did it...he did it.
- and if you want to talk about lightsaber combat. There are just two times when Luke was fighting lightsaber against lightsaber. Against Vader on Bespin, and against Vader on the second death star. Vader/Anakin had years of Jedi training (including lightsaber combat), fougt Obi-Wan and Dooku and didn't manage to win against ROTJ Luke.

What it is I want to tell you ?
We can not say how good Luke realy is in the use of lightsabers when it is NJO Luke. Assuming he could have 14 years of training in lightsaber duels (since Jedi Academy is established 11 years past ANH while NJO ist 25-29 years past ANH) he could at least be as good as RotS Anakin but with much more patience (as being older) so at least he could be a mixture of Anakins skills in lightsaber combat and somewhere near (or even beyond) Yoda, when it comes to use of the force.

How should Mace win that one ?

We landed on ROTJ because somebody made a statement that the movies made Luke look like the greatest ever, they didn't.

Your ESB ROTJ analyses is wrong. In ESB Vader does not want to kill Luke he wants to capture him, he just toys around with Luke throwing things at him, things that Luke can not block things Luke does not block. Luke gets kicked around in that fight and loses his hand.

Then Return of the Jedi starts, and Luke has recieved no additional training, when he's standing there on the Death Star and he's fighting against Vader he is the only one fighting. Vader once again tries to convert him and does not want to kill him. We have seen very little that would make me believe Luke was any kind of superior Jedi in the moives

Sorry but it is possible to become a Jedi Knight in four years. Jorus C'baoth(the original) became a Knight in four years, so I don't see why Luke cant have done the same. This, is also NJO Luke. He has been training for twenty-eight years by then. He also has been through more combat than Mace by then considering Mace was in three years of clone wars and Luke fought the empire for so long, followed by the Yuuzhan Vong, who with their melee weapons, would be great pratice in saber on saber.

Revan became a fully trained Padawan in just a week, and judging by the speed you can go threw the game he was the Dark Lord of the Sith in less then a months time, well dark lord of the sith or a Jedi Master. 4 years isn't that impressive

And Fishy, you have lost nine respect points from me. He did recieve aditional training between ESB and ROTJ. I am amazed you missed something so obvious. One instance was in Shawdows of the Empire, he did lots of fighting. And this does count as training because fighting non-force users was actaully part of the Jedi Trials, read Shawdow HUnter if you dont believe me.

Revan was regaining powers, not learning for the first time. I heard he was actually trained for the first time for over a decade. so actually over 520 weeks, not one.

Ah come who cares about that little detail..

And what training?

IF you look at the movies he has not seen Yoda since the end of ESB, he has never recieved any more Jedi training. He moved to Tatooine with the rest to free Han. There may have been a small amount of time between Bespin and Tatooine but it couldn't have been to big. Still so what if he killed a few people, or whatever the hell he killed how will that make him more able to fight against Vader.

It wouldn't, it wouldn't heavily increase his connection to the force either. In order to become stronger you need to challenge yourself.

Well if this is by the end of ROTJ that you talking about, then he challenged himself a hell of a lot. Other wise, fighting hundred of people is still a big accomplishment. It was a challenge for him.

I am also going to quote Janus, "Absense of proof isn't proof of absense."

It never says anywhere that Obi-wan didn't come teach him between ESB and ROTJ.

Also, you said four years ins't that special for becoming a Jedi, well if it took Revan over a decade and I have never heard of anyone else doing it in even a close amount of time, then yes, it must be special.

That four years thing was a joke forget about it..

And if Obi trained Luke between ESB and ROTJ then could you please tell me why and when and why Luke is surprised to see him in ROTJ?

And sure that may have been a challenge for him but it doesn't put him near a normal Jedi or Mace. That kid that jumps in to kill a few troopers in front of Bail in ROTS is probably superior to Luke in skill in ESB and possibly ROTJ...

but we are not talking about ROTJ Luke here, so this discussion is kidna useless.

Luke IS a jedi in ROTJ, that's why it has that name, Lucas says so, Yoda says so, etc. He is a fully fledged Jedi knight and not some half trained farm boy like some say. He beat Vader because he was stronger, not because Vader didn't want to kill him. Again, Lucas says so, the books say so, and the movie says so. Heck let's compare their endurance. Look at how long Luke withstood that Force Lightning from Sidious. Not to mention how quickly he got up after it stopped. Mace is killed after a few seconds, though i admit he did just lose a hand, and Sidious was probably trying harder, Luke still had to be quite powerful to not lose consciousness or die from that much lightning. AOTC Anakin is down for a few minutes from a 5 second blast from one of Dooku's hands.

Luke is VERY powerful, definitely not at Mace's level as of ROTJ but still much better than most people here give him credit for. Since we are talking about NJO Luke who has been in a lot of combat since ROTJ, he would beat Mace imo. Luke defeated the Emperor in his younger clone body, and thousands of Yuuzhan Vong (or so I've heard). He is a Jedi master and well deserved, because he's one of the strongest (if not the strongest) Jedi in this time period.

Originally posted by Fishy

And what training?


You obviously did not do your homework, Fishy.

a)
The time he shared with Yoda on Dagobah might be a week to two weeks (depends on your suggestion how much time the Millenium Falcon needed from the asteroid field to Bespin).
Most of Lukes training in the time of Episode IV to VI happend between ESB and ROTJ. Which takes me to

b)
After ESB Luke returned to Obi-Wans hut on Tatooine. Obi-Wan left tons of stuff there to instruct Luke (a Journal to instruct Luke in the ways of the Jedi, details on lightsaber building and fighting). What do you think where Luke got his new lightsaber ? Where did he develop his fighting skills between ESB and ROTJ (and he did this...ROTJ Luke is far bette with a lightsaber than ESB Luke was) ? What takes me to point

c)
The construction of an own lightsaber is part of the trials to become a Jedi Knight. If you keep Yodas words from ROTJ in mind: He tells Luke that he would be a Jedi Knight when he is able to confront Vader. This is his last test and he managed to pass it. It is no matter if Vader wants to kill him or not in ROTJ. He is not able to defend against Luke's attacks and loses his hand.

So this would be from Padawan (start of the training on Dagobah) to Jedi Knight (end of ROTJ) in less than a year.

Of course ROTJ Luke would not stand a chance again RotS Mace. But NJO Luke would win against Mace easily.

I also just thought about how Vapaad is better when fighting the Darkside. That was one of the reasons Mace was so powerful against Sidious.(Other than the fact that Sidious sucked.) He wouldn't have this advantage against Luke.

Although slightly overbearing for a fairly new poster (don't mess around with Fishy so early), Nai Fohl, that was an excellent argument.

In OT, Luke had three lightsabers.

The first (blue), given to him by Kenobi in ANH, he threw into the gears of an Imperial Walker, which blew up the lightsaber and the Walker.

The second (blue) he lost, gripped in his severed hand on Bespin.

The third (green) was the last one of the OT. He used it against Vader, who commented on it, saying Luke's skills were "now complete."

This post might seem pointless. I just always liked keeping track of that stuff.

hey same here.

We're all of a similar breed on this forum, man!

lol

NJO Luke Skywalker

IF you know anything about fighting i would recommend you to watch the duel in Episode 6 between Vader and Luke again. Vader could have killed him on a dozen occasions. And building a weapon doesn't make you a skilled fighter, watching video's doesn't make you a skilled fighter. It might make you know more about fighting, but watching a dozen Bruce Lee movies doesn't make you Bruce Lee.

Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
Although slightly overbearing for a fairly new poster (don't mess around with Fishy so early), Nai Fohl, that was an excellent argument.

In OT, Luke had three lightsabers.

The first (blue), given to him by Kenobi in ANH, he threw into the gears of an Imperial Walker, which blew up the lightsaber and the Walker.

The second (blue) he lost, gripped in his severed hand on Bespin.

The third (green) was the last one of the OT. He used it against Vader, who commented on it, saying Luke's skills were "now complete."

This post might seem pointless. I just always liked keeping track of that stuff.

He had only two. The second one and the frist one wwere the same lightsaber.

Originally posted by Fishy
IF you know anything about fighting i would recommend you to watch the duel in Episode 6 between Vader and Luke again. Vader could have killed him on a dozen occasions.

What episode were you watching? Luke EASILY defeated Vader. The closes time Vader got to him was when he threw his lightsaber. And watch the first part of the fight closely. Luke never misses, and then knocks Vader on his ass. When Vader pissed him off, he traded dexterity for pure strength which is the opposite of what Obi did in TPM. It was still more than enough to whoop the old trash compactor.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
What episode were you watching? Luke EASILY defeated Vader. The closes time Vader got to him was when he threw his lightsaber. And watch the first part of the fight closely. Luke never misses, and then knocks Vader on his ass. When Vader pissed him off, he traded dexterity for pure strength which is the opposite of what Obi did in TPM. It was still more than enough to whoop the old trash compactor.

Oh come did you see how Luke was swinging with his weapon, Vader had experience he should have been able to easily block that attack but no he didn't.. He had to fall down an get his hand cut off... The guy wasn't trying

Originally posted by Fishy
IF you know anything about fighting i would recommend you to watch the duel in Episode 6 between Vader and Luke again. Vader could have killed him on a dozen occasions. And building a weapon doesn't make you a skilled fighter, watching video's doesn't make you a skilled fighter. It might make you know more about fighting, but watching a dozen Bruce Lee movies doesn't make you Bruce Lee.

Ok. I watched the duel now 3 times. Where do you think Vader could have killed Luke ? At the beginning of the duel, Vader is only defending against Luke without doing any attack.
Than Palpatine says something and Luke turns out his lightsaber, until Vader attacks him again. But I don't see where Vader could have killed him there.
I only saw two situations when Vader was in advantage. First when he throws his lightsaber at Luke because of the surprise and then when Luke gets angry.
When Luke is in rage he is only doing strikes without any control. Just trying to hit something. I agree that Vader as a trained swordfighter should have killed him there. When Luke starts his attack he is far out of range so Vader could have used force grip or force push against him or just use that uncontrolled strikes to cut Luke into pieces or cut his weaponhand off...but he did not.

And this takes me to the question why he did not do that. That he doesn't want to kill Luke is no logical explanation because a force pull to throw Luke back or a force grip or cutting of his weapon hand would not have killed Luke and would have made it far more easily to convince him to join the dark side because he could have seen that he has no chance against a Sith. Only explanation for me is that he was surprised because of the amount of hatred Luke showed.

I agree with you that building a weapon or watching some fighting movie doesn't make you a good fighter. Building a weapon and following lessons that a master of fighting has left for you to exercerzise with might work. And this is exactly what Luke did between ESB and ROTJ. Do you think ESB Luke would have been able to fight against 20 people with Blasters and meleeweapons (including Boba Fett) as he does in the beginning of ROTJ and survive ? No way. So there is an increase in fighting skills between ESB and ROTJ.

And well...I don't want to say that ROTJ Luke would have a chance against one of the "old" Jedi because they would be lightyears ahead in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. But obviously he was strong enough to keep "normal" people busy.

Okay so he could have learned there, but it couldn't have been much... Because of the time in between the movies and how hard it is to train like that.

Now on that thing you said, its not that Luke pushes Vader on the defense, its that Vader is on the defensive that makes me think he isn't trying. Luke although skilled in the force is no where near Vader in lightsaber skills or force power. Where Vader would have just walked up to that ship and blown the entire thing up Luke had to work.

Now seriously Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke yes he could have defeated him without killing him but would that have done? Get Palpatine to kill him because Luke wasn't worthy... Luke his skill in that fight although he attacks is worthless. Lets look at it like this

A normal guy can attack a skilled fighter with a sword the skilled fighter should be able to kill him but if he doesn't want to he still has to block and avoid, however would his opinion change and would he want the other to die he should be able to do it.

Luke his fighting method isn't all that good. He just swings... So ROTJ Luke is not a fighter, he understands what Jedi are about and he is a Jedi in that sense of the word, but is he a fighter? No. Would he have defeated Vader if he was not his son? No. Could Vader have killed him? Yes. Did Vader want to kill him? No.

Fishy is so arrogant!...

Why do you think the Emperor wanted Luke as an apprentice? It wasn't because he was weak in the Force, he wanted Luke to take Vader's place at his side.(Duh! Think!) If the Emperor didn't think Luke was not powerful, he would not have went into all that trouble to get him.

Originally posted by Fishy
Okay so he could have learned there, but it couldn't have been much... Because of the time in between the movies and how hard it is to train like that.


Well it is several months. He also WAS trained by Ben's Force Ghost for the entire time between ANH and ROTJ. And I have personal experince in self-training with swords becuase the wasn't a school where I used to live, but I can take on most people who have been training for years with an experinced teacher.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Well it is several months. He also WAS trained by Ben's Force Ghost for the entire time between ANH and ROTJ. And I have personal experince in self-training with swords becuase the wasn't a school where I used to live, but I can take on most people who have been training for years with an experinced teacher.

I'll take you on and kick your ass. j/k


But, I know you guys care so much about how much training ROTJ Luke got, but you forget that the thread is about NJO Luke, not ROTJ Luke.

Wouldn't that mean that Luke's EVEN more powerful then?

I do remember that this thread is about NJO Luke you dembass, I started this thread.

lol

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I do remember that this thread is about NJO Luke you dembass, I started this thread.

Retard. Read your own title.

That pic is lame

Sure it was.

xotcho.free.fr/ photos/idiot.jpg

That picture is taking it too far Darth Glentract. You don't have to show us you on these forums ya know.

Sorry, I'm thirteen, I don't look like that. That is actually you, I know where you live. I just looked where I never look.

.......

HimoKun
Jace

Registered: Apr 2005
Location: In the place where you never look

oh

Ok, now go on back to the insane asylum.

Originally posted by Fishy


ESB to ROTJ is around six month of time. Luke would have been able to pratice at least 4 months there (1 month for constructing his lightsaber, 1 month for the events of Shadows of the Empire)

Take a look at him when he is on Hoth (only hardly managed to force pull his lightsaber out of the snow) and compare that to the duel with Vader. 1 or 2 weeks of training between "I can not pull that lightsaber" Luke and "I can force lift 4 things at once and can force jump 6 meters high" Luke. So much for the force.

And swordfighting. Luke could have been trained 4 month by a master like Obi-Wan. Come on. Four months training guided by a master is quite much training.



a)
Vader hadn't fought with lightsabers around ROTJ time for how long ? He had 2 lightsaber duels in 23 years from RotS to ROTJ. One against Obi-Wan and one against Luke...both no "real" pratice since Obi-Wan doesn't want to win (or even give Vader a tough fight) and Luke was a joke in ESB.

b)
Vader did no real fighting from RotS to ROTJ. Come on. He just takes his stormtroopers let them blaster anything away and than walks in to look cool or kill a prisoner here and there while Luke was fighting 4 years long.



Vader knew that Lukes way to the dark side would have lead over his dead body. He experienced that in RotS when Palpatine asked him to murder Dooku. He might not have wanted to kill or injure Luke but not because fearing the Emperor would kill Luke in this case.
And even that is a poor excuse for losing your hand to an unskilled fighter.



I can tell you that most swordfighters hate to fight unskilled fighters because an unskilled fighter completly acts unpredictable. If you fight somebody who matches your own skill level you can guess what he would do next. Facing an unskilled fighter with sword in hand and in rage can be

a) like watching somebody do shadow fighting like he had seen it in the movies.
b) like running into a mixer equipped with a sword. Quite hard do develop decent swordsmanship there. I guess that is what happened to Vader.

Just watch that final fight between Vader and Luke when Luke goes mad he just slashes from left to right even before reaching Vader. Vader should have been able to easily stop it.

Then for some reason thats not very clear on screen Vader falls down, personally I just think Vader wanted to block all of Luke's attacks and then tripped because he was walking backwards, its the only explanation I can think of after seeing that fight.

Although i have to admit Luke was better in it then I remembered he still wasn't anywhere near Vader

Originally posted by Fishy
Okay so he could have learned there, but it couldn't have been much... Because of the time in between the movies and how hard it is to train like that.

Now on that thing you said, its not that Luke pushes Vader on the defense, its that Vader is on the defensive that makes me think he isn't trying. Luke although skilled in the force is no where near Vader in lightsaber skills or force power. Where Vader would have just walked up to that ship and blown the entire thing up Luke had to work.

Now seriously Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke yes he could have defeated him without killing him but would that have done? Get Palpatine to kill him because Luke wasn't worthy... Luke his skill in that fight although he attacks is worthless. Lets look at it like this

A normal guy can attack a skilled fighter with a sword the skilled fighter should be able to kill him but if he doesn't want to he still has to block and avoid, however would his opinion change and would he want the other to die he should be able to do it.

Luke his fighting method isn't all that good. He just swings... So ROTJ Luke is not a fighter, he understands what Jedi are about and he is a Jedi in that sense of the word, but is he a fighter? No. Would he have defeated Vader if he was not his son? No. Could Vader have killed him? Yes. Did Vader want to kill him? No.

Luke is a fully trained Jedi Knight, the same level as Obi-Wan was at the end of episode 1, what don't you get? He is an extremely quick learner and he had MOTIVATION to try and get stronger unlike previous jedi.

Vader didn't have a chance to get off of the offensive. Luke was fighting really well and it only took him a few seconds to knock that punk ass on his feet.

You're right that Vader did not want to kill Luke, but do you really think a power hungry guy like Vader would purposely lose to someone? No, or else he would have done that on Cloud City. With the Emperor's help, Vader probably thought he could turn Luke if he defeated him. If Vader lost on purpose to get Luke to turn to the dark side, why was he begging for his life when he lost? Palpatine wanted Luke as his apprentice instead of Vader, so even if Vader won this fight, Palpy wouldn't have killed him. Vader couldn't defeat him, couldn't even get close.

So what if Vader didn't want to kill him. Luke didn't want to kill Vader either and Luke still won big time. If Luke had been trying to kill Vader the entire fight, it would've happened in 10 seconds when he knocked Vader down the stairs. Luke IS stronger than Vader. You're going against what Lucas says, what the movies show, and what the books say.

As for Luke's fighting style, I've already answered this. At the start of the fight he is fighting really well, never missing once and clearly superior to Vader. When he gets angry he trades dexterity for pure strength, that's why Vader still loses because even though Luke has trouble hitting him, when he does it pushes Vader back and weakens him. That's why he falls on the ground breathing hard and barely able to hold his lightsaber.

Luke is a Jedi knight and strong enough to defeat a Sith lord (albeit a weak one). Is he a fighter? Yes. Would he have defeated Vader if he was not his son? Yes. Could Vader have killed him? No. Did Vader want to kill him? No. Did Luke want to kill Vader? No, even less than Vader wanted to kill Luke.