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My two favourite characters. I'd love to see this match up in the comics.

I'd personally think the Phoenix would win, but what do you others think?

Without a doubt phoenix. SW is a fu**ing mutant dont be silly

Yeah, a mutant who can rewrite reality

I'm pretty sure this has already been done (In an X-men comic i think...maybe ultimate, not sure.) I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer with precise stuff.

~wickerman~

What is this, vs Dark Phoenix, and Scarlet Witch is not even in, not even close, not even close in league with Franklin Richards, so don't comapre SW to one of the most powerful entitiy MU has even seen.

Jesus...people keep giving praise to the Phoenix and how incredible and ancient and cosmic and a part of the Universe it is. They also forget Jean Grey ISN'T the entity known as the Phoenix....meh.....whatever. They also seem to forget how Wanda can simply change reality when she blinks.

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
Jesus...people keep giving praise to the Phoenix and how incredible and ancient and cosmic and a part of the Universe it is. They also forget Jean Grey ISN'T the entity known as the Phoenix....meh.....whatever. They also seem to forget how Wanda can simply change reality when she blinks.


Scarlet Witch is nothing to Dark Phoenix.

I totally agree with you Xplosive, for a change

Dark pheonix DUH!

Originally posted by Wickerman
Jesus...people keep giving praise to the Phoenix and how incredible and ancient and cosmic and a part of the Universe it is. They also forget Jean Grey ISN'T the entity known as the Phoenix....meh.....whatever. They also seem to forget how Wanda can simply change reality when she blinks.

~wickerman~

What you forget wicker is that when you get to a certain power level lets just say above skyfather level most beings can warp reality on a cosmic scale. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown is one with the force and can draw on as much of its power as she requires. This thread is laughable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you forget wicker is that when you get to a certain power level lets just say above skyfather level most beings can warp reality on a cosmic scale. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown is one with the force and can draw on as much of its power as she requires. This thread is laughable.

You're probably right. I didn't say Wanda would win this, i was just saying how it pissed me off that people forget how strong she;s become. (And this isn't Phoenix of the White Crown we're talkin bout...or is it? O_o)

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
You're probably right. I didn't say Wanda would win this, i was just saying how it pissed me off that people forget how strong she;s become. (And this isn't Phoenix of the White Crown we're talkin bout...or is it? O_o)

~wickerman~

No, people didn't forget how strong she is, but compared to DP, they don't care how strong she is, bacause DP is, I mean on completely different level, on such level that it's shame for DP to be compared to SW.

Originally posted by Wickerman
Jesus...people keep giving praise to the Phoenix and how incredible and ancient and cosmic and a part of the Universe it is. They also forget Jean Grey ISN'T the entity known as the Phoenix....meh.....whatever. They also seem to forget how Wanda can simply change reality when she blinks.

~wickerman~

I dont know about the original Dark Phoenix saga- after all the retconning and re-retconning- but in Phoenix Endsong, Dark Phoenix is Jean.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
I dont know about the original Dark Phoenix saga- after all the retconning and re-retconning- but in Phoenix Endsong, Dark Phoenix is Jean.

yes yes, but i meant that they can't make the difference between the cosmic entity that is part of the universe and Jean. (pretty much like saying Hal Jordan or another GL is the GL Energy)

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
yes yes, but i meant that they can't make the difference between the cosmic entity that is part of the universe and Jean. (pretty much like saying Hal Jordan or another GL is the GL Energy)

~wickerman~

well, its not exactly the same. For one, its an extension of her telekinetic mutation... for two, she has access to as much power as she "needs" for her phoenix work (disinfection, healing), and also she taps into it at will sometimes (particularly when shes angry), like in new x-men when her students are threatened.

also, its hinted at that she's become "one with the force" (X-men: the end states it openly, although it isnt continuity). whatever that means.

Its not exactly clear whether the force uses her or she uses the force- it seems to be both. In Endsong this is supported when phoenix tells jean, "once you called for me in your hour of need... now im calling on you" (paraphrase).

so it seems to me that she uses the force to help her friends, protect her students, resurrect emma etc. and the force uses her to disinfect and heal the universe.

Yeah the dark phoenix was jean. Jean is the phoenix of the white crown she would own any incarnation of wanda.

im sure this is a stuipd question but what kind of powers did Dark Pheonix have?

Jean being one with the Phoenix force had her telepathic/telekinetic abilities amplified to a cosmic scale. She could generate virtually any form of energy in virtually unlimited amounts. She could survive in any environment. She was one with a force that drew its power from the life forces of everything in existence.

Originally posted by Mider
im sure this is a stuipd question but what kind of powers did Dark Pheonix have?

basically, total telekinetic control over matter, among other things. feeds off of energy, drinks supernovas for lunch etc.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
basically, total telekinetic control over matter, among other things. feeds off of energy, drinks supernovas for lunch etc.

holds galaxies in her hand, etc. etc.

~wickerman~

...for old times' sake....

Old thread but for comparison's sake, Dr. Strange was punking Scarlet Witch's reality changes. Any entity that can change reality at a skyfather level or higher probably wouldn't think of Wanda as a threat.

Originally posted by Kasper Gutman
Old thread but for comparison's sake, Dr. Strange was punking Scarlet Witch's reality changes. Any entity that can change reality at a skyfather level or higher probably wouldn't think of Wanda as a threat.
unless she removes them from existence entirely... For the purposes of this fight I'd say she BFR via taking away the entire existence of the DP in the universe.

Originally posted by Uriel005
unless she removes them from existence entirely... For the purposes of this fight I'd say she BFR via taking away the entire existence of the DP in the universe.

Wanda is overrated due to the majority of readers not taking the time out to properly analyse the events and feats found within House of M and its spin off titles.

The Phoenix is leagues above any incarnation of Wanda. Wanda couldnt remove the Phoenix from existence, the Phoenix is something way beyond her, existence depends on the Phoenix.

Im going bed, no doubt by the time i wake up there will be some interesting replies

You know, wasn't Wanda's highest feat ever................ suspicious? I'm talking about the House of M "omniversal" rewriting.

Excalibur's lighthouse was the focal point/nexus that caused her planet wide spell to go omniversal no? If so, then that's a PF feat. Feron asked the PF to project the tower onto every plane of existence simultaneously. That would explain how she was able to accomplish such a feat.

If that is correct, Wanda is the most over rated piece of garbage on these forums. Any accomplished mage would smack her into next Tuesday.

How bizarre this thread has been....

Anyway, SW wins. The chaos wave has been pretty thoroughly stablished as a multiversal, some would argue omniversal, warp. The PF is still currently below eternity.

if it's HoM Wanda she stomps

Originally posted by zopzop
You know, wasn't Wanda's highest feat ever................ suspicious? I'm talking about the House of M "omniversal" rewriting.

Excalibur's lighthouse was the focal point/nexus that caused her planet wide spell to go omniversal no? If so, then that's a PF feat. Feron asked the PF to project the tower onto every plane of existence simultaneously. That would explain how she was able to accomplish such a feat.

If that is correct, Wanda is the most over rated piece of garbage on these forums. Any accomplished mage would smack her into next Tuesday.

Youve been reading my posts in the X-men forums right

Basically the only feats Wanda is directly responsible for are the creation of House of M, which is a universal scale reality warp that she couldnt control and she required the emotional support of Pietro and the powers of Professor Xavier to co-ordinate. It was the limit of her power to do this which is why she was hidden away in House of M maintaining the spell and then she lost control when the heroes started attacking. It was a botch job anyway because her warp was a thin veil over reality which Layla Miller and Wolverine could see through.

Other than that she also removed the mutant gene from planet Earth. Big deal. Another botch job because she left near 200 unaffected.

How is any of that a match for Eternity, let alone the multiversal Phoenix?

People also wrongly attribute the Chaos Wave as a feat of Wandas when she had no direct part in its creation whatsoever and had no knowledge of it.

The warped reality of HOM leaked through the dimensional doorway based at Excaliburs lighthouse straight into Otherworld. It wasnt specifically created, maintained or controlled by Wanda. It was an anomaly triggered by the creation of House of M therefore it and all it did are not attributable as feats to Wanda.

Furthermore as misinterpreted by many, the wave never went around existence collapsing realities and it certainly never spread across existence simultaneously collapsing realities.

All what happened was it leaked through the doorway into Otherworld and collided with Otherworld. The Phoenix Force connected all realities of existence to Otherworld making it a place of omniversal significance. A keystone of reality, a support column. So the Chaos Wave collided with this nexus, shaking it up, resulting in a domino effect which saw a few realities collapse.

The Chaos Wave did NOT directly collapse any realities, it struck Otherworld and as Otherworld is connected to all existence thanks to the Phoenix, it triggered further destruction.

However as clearly depicted in the comic, the Chaos Wave was not a massive threat when tackled head on, it was a threat when unchecked and because it struck suddenly and without warning.

When it was identified, it got handled in about 3 panels by Excalibur.

Down with the hype.

Read the comics guys

Like I said, any competent mage hands Wanda her ass, House of M version or not.

Originally posted by 753
How bizarre this thread has been....

Anyway, SW wins. The chaos wave has been pretty thoroughly stablished as a multiversal, some would argue omniversal, warp. The PF is still currently below eternity.

The Wave triggered effects across all existence but it had no direct part in the destruction apart from colliding with Otherworld. Otherworld was made a keystone of existence when the Phoenix Force linked it to all realities. Thus by striking Otherworld as stated and shown, the wave triggered further destruction in other realities.

The Phoenix Force is far from below Eternity in current continuity. Its avatars have been empowered to manipulate all that Eternity is within the palm of their hands.

The latest handbook calls the Force multiversal and numerous on panel accounts by reputable characters such as Death, Roma, the Watcher, Kubik and Reed Richards refer to it as the Big Bang, the power source of reality and that without it there would be no reality, nothing but a void.

Originally posted by zopzop
Like I said, any competent mage hands Wanda her ass, House of M version or not.

Pre WWH Dr Strange with prep would take her out without a doubt.

She has been hyped to ridiculous proportions by some posters and the majority of readers on these forums just swallowed what they were told without taking the time out to analyse what was actually stated and shown themselves.

zopzop youre a rare one on these forums

Originally posted by Warlord
if it's HoM Wanda she stomps

HoM gets cut out of the timeline, atomized, drained of life force, transmuted, or straight up mind raped and dominated.

She's good but she's below Eternity, Cosmic Cubes, the Infinity Gauntlet and without a doubt below the Phoenix Force.

Im just waiting for someone to mention how Wandas "No More Mutants" spell affected other dimensions. Go on, who's gonna be 1st?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Otherworld was made a primary intersection of reality by the Phoenix Force who connected all realities of the multiverse to it:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6177/excalibur050p17.th.jpg

The lighthouse(which would later become Excaliburs headquarters) became a dimensional gateway to Otherworld and its through this weakpoint in 616's dimensional wall that Wandas out of control energies accidentally leaked through as the Chaos Wave:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8048/uncannyxmen462p18.th.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5306/uncannyxmen465page14.th.jpg

the wave collided with Otherworld which again is marked out as being connected to all realities (thanks to the Phoenix Force):

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9660/uncannyxmen462p05.th.jpg

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5171/uncannyxmen462p06.th.jpg

See Otherworld as a multiversal support column, when the the Chaos Wave hit this column and shook it up, parts of the structure it was connected with collapsed:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9328/uncannyxmen462p0708.th.jpg

Or you could see the wave as a shout in the alps, that de-stabilizes a great mound of snow and TRIGGERS an avalanche(the collapse of some realities).

The wave never collapsed realities directly of its own power, it just destabilised a keystone of reality which is Otherworld, which triggered the collapse.

The wave was later stopped by Excalibur, no great powers needed to get involved. The wave was only a threat because it struck suddenly without warning.

It could never have collapsed realities directly (going by how easily it was stopped and by the power level of those who stopped it) it instead destabilized Otherworld.

Yes you have seen heroes and what looked to be an alternate reality Galactus fall victim to the destruction, but they were taken out by the collapse of their realities, not by the wave directly. They knew nothing of the wave and as shown by Meggan if they confronted it directly could no doubt have dealt with it. Its just like if i shouted in the Alps and caused an avalanche which swept across a nearby town killing many residents, residents who no doubt together or even some individually could kick my ass, the fact that i triggered something that caused their destruction doesnt make me greater than them. Could i walk around that town shouting down buildings and shouting people to death?

The chaos wave was a powerful time/space anomaly, however it was not as all powerful or unstoppable as it has been hyped up to be by posters who dont bother to really think about what they read and are instead just satisfied with pretty pictures




Wanda never had anything directly to do with it, it was an accident she knew nothing about, something her direct creation(House of M) triggered. Even if she had directly created it, it still wasnt as big a deal as you think and ive shown that. It didnt do a lot of damage on its own directly, it messed up Otherworld and thats that. This collision then went on to spiral into something bigger than what the Chaos Wave ever could do directly and thats simply because of Otherworlds connection to all realities as established by the Phoenix Force

Sup GS!

Originally posted by Juntai
Sup GS!

Hey wassup. Long time. How u been?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Wave triggered effects across all existence but it had no direct part in the destruction apart from colliding with Otherworld. Otherworld was made a keystone of existence when the Phoenix Force linked it to all realities. Thus by striking Otherworld as stated and shown, the wave triggered further destruction in other realities.

The Phoenix Force is far from below Eternity in current continuity. Its avatars have been empowered to manipulate all that Eternity is within the palm of their hands.

The latest handbook calls the Force multiversal and numerous on panel accounts by reputable characters such as Death, Roma, the Watcher, Kubik and Reed Richards refer to it as the Big Bang, the power source of reality and that without it there would be no reality, nothing but a void. Its role in cyclic destruction and recreation of the cosmos does not put it above eternity at the current satage in the universe's life. Seen as every reality has a phoenix force, if we consider them all expressions of the same entity, then we can speak of a multiphoenix sure, just like we can speak of a multieternity. I would say multiphoenix is below multieternity.

Originally posted by 753
Its role in cyclic destruction and recreation of the cosmos does not put it above eternity at the current satage in the universe's life. Seenas every relaity has a phoenix force, if we consider them all expressions of the same entity then we can speak of a multiphoenix sure, just like we can speak of a multieternity. I would say multiphoenix is below multieternity.

Youre making the assumption that specific role is the be all and end all of the Phoenix. As well as perpetuating the creation cycle, the Phoenix Force as stated is those very creation energies from which reality derives, from which concepts are given meaning enabling the existence of the abstracts. The difference between Eternity and the Phoenix is that it is literally those creation energies gone sentient, whereas Eternity is a concept given meaning by the Big Bang and his powers derive from its energies.

That is why as stated on panel by Death, without the Phoenix Force, there is a void, there is no Eternity.

so the pheonix force is the balance between death and oblivion?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
so the pheonix force is the balance between death and oblivion?

It is more than a balancing force between two universal abstracts. However its role at a universal level does compliment the roles of some abstracts.

Wanda wins via Magneto spontaneously appearing and causing Phoenix a stroke.

Jjjjjgggggggg ftw.






















Oh, hey GS. Sup brotha?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Wanda wins via Magneto spontaneously appearing and causing Phoenix a stroke.

Jjjjjgggggggg ftw.












Oh, hey GS. Sup brotha?




Whats gd brutha

You know, getting my annual Phoenix hatin' on.

How are things in the UK?

Originally posted by illadelph12
You know, getting my annual Phoenix hatin' on.

How are things in the UK?

Things are cool, just doing my thing, making some business movements, studying and working as well. Busy.

What about yourself?

I'm good man. I'm still working (thankfully). Job and real estate markets are pretty ugly here in Cali (though luckily I work in real estate taxes so it's relatively stable). Other than that just living the life and futily trying to talk my little sister out of joining the Air Force.

Phoenix wins, but Phoenix is still no where near the powerhouses such as Protege, Living Tribunal...

Originally posted by Xplosive
Phoenix wins, but Phoenix is still no where near the powerhouses such as Protege, Living Tribunal...

Feats wise she trumps both of them.

LT's biggest feats are erecting an impenetrable barrier around a universe. Some people say disabling the IG but it is an inanimate object, he never faced down an IG wielder.

LT's top in terms of how he's regarded and through statements by other characters. Feats wise hes bettered by many.

Protege is an unknown. He allegedly duplicate TOAA's power as claimed by himself but did nothing to prove this and furthermore got taken out by a Celestial, beings who throughout continuity are individually at least less than the greatest abstracts. People should be looking at Proteges defeat by a Celestial as a demotion as opposed to quite illogically seeing the situation as reason to amp this Celestial to omnipotent proportions based solely on Proteges unproven claims.

Protege is about as useful in a debate as Superman Prime.

Just to summarize, LT is top in role and regard from other characters, feats wise he leaves a lot to be desired.

Smh...

You know where this is going to lead.

And I can't wait.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Smh...

You know where this is going to lead.

yep.

I love the controversy

Its true though, LT is all status and reputation and no feats. Not saying hes not actually top because he is presented as top of the pile. However feats wise he has done nothing truly impressive.

Originally posted by Mindset
And I can't wait.

Why not start it off yourself instead of waiting for a certain poster or two to tell you how and what to think?

Didn't he hold megaverses or something?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why not start it off yourself instead of waiting for a certain poster or two to tell you how and what to think? Some one is an angry little man.

Originally posted by Mindset
Some one is an angry little man.

As you wish

Originally posted by Mindset
Didn't he hold megaverses or something?

Incorrect. He held the two brothers would go on to craft their own megaverses as seen in X-men Adventures:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8349/56132412.th.jpg

The brothers got retconned over a decade ago

And this scan illustrates my point. By statement hes top without question, i was just saying that feat wise hes topped by many.

I was never disagreeing with your point.

Which is why I'm not sure why you got premenstrual with me, but w/e.

good to see ya gs

Originally posted by guy222
good to see ya gs

You to. Hows life?

all is good

working and maintaining a relationship

how u been

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect. He held the two brothers would go on to craft their own megaverses as seen in X-men Adventures:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8349/56132412.th.jpg

The brothers got retconned over a decade ago

And this scan illustrates my point. By statement hes top without question, i was just saying that feat wise hes topped by many. He held the phoenix force in his hands (since holding things in one's hands seems like a huge deal here) and it was obvious how far beyond it he was. The megaverse thing is from a different comic, but it's in his respect thread.

Originally posted by 753
He held the phoenix force in his hands (since holding things in one's hands seems like a huge deal here) and it was obvious how far beyond it he was. The megaverse thing is from a different comic, but it's in his respect thread.

Manipulating a universe down to its components atoms and materializing it in your hand is a bit more than just holding something in your hand, hence the significance placed on Jeans feat.

However youre right, you could understandably interpret that What If scene as suggestive of a greater authority. Thats not in doubt, all im saying is that whilst he is held in such high regard and his role gives him authority of all, feats wise hes lacking.

You got a link to this megaverse thing, the forum search function isnt working for me

There was a databook entry saying he held a megaverse in each hand as well, iirc.

@753 and GalacticStorm

Be careful bringing up What If's when dealing with the PF and the LT.

Sure he held the PF in his hands, I can hold a grenade in my hands too. But if it goes off, I'm pretty much dead.

Bringing in that What If showing as if the LT >>>>>>>>>>>>> PF means you validate all other What If showing of the LT and the PF.

We have the PF destroying whole universes in What If's effortlessly. Then again we have the LT running with his tail between his legs from Korvac.

The best power output we've seen from him was from that What If issue with Korvac where his "ultimate punishment" was making a star go nova. We've seen DP do that very thing in 616 and Rachel/Necrom do WAY WAY more than that too.

Originally posted by zopzop
@753 and GalacticStorm

Be careful bringing up What If's when dealing with the PF and the LT.

Sure he held the PF in his hands, I can hold a grenade in my hands too. But if it goes off, I'm pretty much dead.

Bringing in that What If showing as if the LT >>>>>>>>>>>>> PF means you validate all other What If showing of the LT and the PF.

We have the PF destroying whole universes in What If's effortlessly. Then again we have the LT running with his tail between his legs from Korvac.

The best power output we've seen from him was from that What If issue with Korvac where his "ultimate punishment" was making a star go nova. We've seen DP do that very thing in 616 and Rachel/Necrom do WAY WAY more than that too.

Well put

Originally posted by zopzop
@753 and GalacticStorm

Be careful bringing up What If's when dealing with the PF and the LT.

Sure he held the PF in his hands, I can hold a grenade in my hands too. But if it goes off, I'm pretty much dead.

Bringing in that What If showing as if the LT >>>>>>>>>>>>> PF means you validate all other What If showing of the LT and the PF.

We have the PF destroying whole universes in What If's effortlessly. Then again we have the LT running with his tail between his legs from Korvac.

The best power output we've seen from him was from that What If issue with Korvac where his "ultimate punishment" was making a star go nova. We've seen DP do that very thing in 616 and Rachel/Necrom do WAY WAY more than that too.

The LT is the same for all realities, he is never not canon:

http://img524.imageshack.us/i/lt2cm.jpg/

High or low showings, he remains the same character. Destroynig universes shouldnt be beyond the scope of the phoenix in principle either, it is the one supposed to end and recreate the cosmos after all. This doesnt mean the PF can simply decide tol finish a given Eternity, let alone Multieternity, regardless of surrounding circumstances.

The Megaverse thing comes from these two:

http://img405.imageshack.us/i/omniis1cz2.jpg/

http://img339.imageshack.us/i/ltkz7.jpg/

One decribes multiverse clusters as megaverses, and the other states he oversees reality clusters including the one humans inhabit - so one could conclude he watchs over several multiverses making up the marvel megaverse (in this case the omniverse would include DC, etc) or that he wathces over several megaverses that make up a marvel omniverse, which is how I view it

Originally posted by 753
The LT is the same for all realities, he is never not canon:

http://img524.imageshack.us/i/lt2cm.jpg/

High or low showings, he remains the same character. Destroynig universes shouldnt be beyond the scope of the phoenix in principle either, it is the one supposed to end and recreate the cosmos after all. This doesnt mean the PF can simply decide tol finish a given Eternity, let alone Multieternity, regardless of surrounding circumstances.

The Megaverse thing comes from these two:

http://img405.imageshack.us/i/omniis1cz2.jpg/

http://img339.imageshack.us/i/ltkz7.jpg/

One decribes multiverse clusters as megaverses, and the other states he oversees reality clusters including the one humans inhabit - so one could conclude he watchs over several multiverses making up the marvel megaverse (in this case the omniverse would include DC, etc) or that he wathces over several megaverses that make up a marvel omniverse, which is how I view it

No one was denying that LT is the same being throughout the multiverse, Zopzop was just making the point that because he is the same, he has low showings throughout existence that make him look inferior to lower powers such as the Korvac situation which count.

Also i believe youve misunderstood the term megaverse, in fact much of that paragraph youve shown in that scan.

A megaverse is a universe from a multiverse outside of the 616 multiverse, which doesnt share the same cosmic hierarchy as 616 and its divergents Earths, but is more closely linked to Marvel than any other multiverse such as DC.

This would therefore include the New Universe and Marvels Shadowline. Here is a link from the handbook writers that will help you to understand it better-

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm

From Marvel.com

Originally posted by 753
Destroynig universes shouldnt be beyond the scope of the phoenix in principle either, it is the one supposed to end and recreate the cosmos after all. This doesnt mean the PF can simply decide tol finish a given Eternity, let alone Multieternity, regardless of surrounding circumstances.

Yes it does and thats exactly what Jean Grey did with not just a reality, but a timeline the Phoenix Consciousness deemed unhealthy for the multiverse within the New X-men series.

The Phoenix empowers its avatars to manipulate the entire matter of universes within the palm of their hands, to cut timelines and then regrow a more desirable future via event manipulation.

The Phoenix Force is conclusively greater than Eternity, however it appears it comes under LT's jurisdiction, however the Force has far greater feats of power.

Originally posted by Mindset
From Marvel.com

A lot of content on Marvel.com is as reputable as wikipedia. Im a member and could potentially write content on the site.

Marvunapp is the site of the handbook writers and the site is referred to within the handbooks themselves.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No one was denying that LT is the same being throughout the multiverse, Zopzop was just making the point that because he is the same, he has low showings throughout existence that make him look inferior to lower powers such as the Korvac situation which count.

Also i believe youve misunderstood the term megaverse, in fact much of that paragraph youve shown in that scan.

A megaverse is a universe from a multiverse outside of the 616 multiverse, which doesnt share the same cosmic hierarchy as 616 and its divergents Earths, but is more closely linked to Marvel than any other multiverse such as DC.

This would therefore include the New Universe and Marvels Shadowline. Here is a link from the handbook writers that will help you to understand it better-

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm I posted both interpretations of megaverse. The idea that all marvel crap is a megaverse and that it along with DC and would make up an omniverse would have some basis in handbook quotes that seem to reference the marvel vs dc travesty, the brothers etc. It may just be an older term for omniverse though.

As I see it:

All divergent timelines that are variations of one another make up a multiverse, a collection of multiverses with similar abstract concepts make up a megaverse and the collections of megaverses (each one with radically distinct abstratcs), make up the omniverse.

...going with Dark Phoenix on this one.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A lot of content on Marvel.com is as reputable as wikipedia. Im a member and could potentially write content on the site.

Marvunapp is the site of the handbook writers and the site is referred to within the handbooks themselves. That may be, but in any case, a Megaverse is larger than a multiverse, which is what I was really trying to get at.

From the site:

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

Originally posted by 753
I posted both interpretations of megaverse. The idea that all marvel crap is a megaverse and that it along with DC and would make up an omniverse would have some basis in handbook quotes that seem to reference the marvel vs dc travesty, the brothers etc. It may just be an older term for omniverse though.

As I see it:

All divergent timelines that are variations of one another make up a multiverse, a collection of multiverses with similar abstract concepts make up a megaverse and the collections of megaverses (each one with radically distinct abstratcs), make up the omniverse.

Nah. Marvels multiverse is the core universe along with its divergent realities.

Other Marvel properties that dont fit into the Marvel multiverse such as the New Universe and Shadowline make up Megaverses. Universe outside Marvels multiverse but they are more closely linked to Marvel than any other multiverse.

"No more Phoenix"
POOF!

Originally posted by Mindset
That may be, but in any case, a Megaverse is larger than a multiverse, which is what I was really trying to get at.

Thats the point which i had issue with. Its not, it doesnt say that in the handbooks or on the site of the handbook writers. Both of those two sources have a consistent explanation of a megaverse.

Marvel.com is full of fan contributions as i said i could potentially go on there and write content. In no official marvel publication has it been stated that a megaverse is anything other realms outside marvels multiverse but still belonging to marvel. Nowhere.

Sounds to me like some fan contributor misunderstood the official definitions given by the handbook writers and posted what you quoted.

Look at my edit.

Originally posted by Mshinu
"No more Phoenix"
POOF!

The chicks ultimate output is a botched reality alteration brought about with the help of Xaviers powers and able to be seen through by Wolverine. She's no Phoenix, no Eternity, shes not even cosmic cube level.

You misinterpreted. Do better

Originally posted by Mindset
Look at my edit.

Your edit is what i linked to previously.

However what youve done is post the incorrect statement and then linked to the marvunapp site as if it supports it.

It doesnt.

The statement about a megaverse being bigger is not supported in the handbooks or on marvunapp.

As i said previously, its is a term for realms and universes depicted in Marvel properties such as the New Universe which are outside the main multiverse we're familiar with.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your edit is what i linked to previously.

However what youve done is post the incorrect statement and then linked to the marvunapp site as if it supports it.

It doesnt.

The statement about a megaverse being bigger is not supported in the handbooks or on marvunapp.

As i said previously, its is a term for realms and universes depicted in Marvel properties such as the New Universe which are outside the main multiverse we're familiar with. The statement I posted is from the site...

"Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse)."

Originally posted by Mindset
The statement I posted is from the site...

You posted the fan statement about the megaverse being bigger alongside the official statement from the handbooks and marvunapp. This fan has obviously misunderstood the part where it breaks down the meaning of megaverse and explains that mega means bigger and therefore the term encompasses a bigger grouping of Marvels properties as opposed to multiverse which covers 616 and its divergent realities.


THAT is where the misunderstanding has come from. Marvunapp and the handbooks have never ever stated a megaverse is bigger. A contributor has after reading their definition has.

Ok, look, ignore the statement from marvel.com, it's irrelevant now.

This statement:

Particular this part:

Is from marvunapp.

I don't see where the misunderstanding it.

Originally posted by Mindset
The statement I posted is from the site...

"Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse)."

Yes and you still dont get it.

Megaverse accounts for the properties outside of the multiverse. Therefore it refers to realities beyond that which the term multiverse covers. Thats not to say that the megaverses themselves are bigger. However the term megaverse takes into consideration areas beyond the borders of the multiverse.

Universes like the new universe and shadow line. They are both examples of realities covered by the term.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes and you still dont get it.

Megaverse accounts for the properties outside of the multiverse. Therefore it refers to realities beyond that which the term multiverse covers. Thats not to say that the megaverses themselves are bigger. However the term megaverse takes into consideration areas beyond the borders of the multiverse.

Universes like the new universe and shadow line. They are both examples of realities covered by the term. Ok, so it's not necessarily larger than a multiverse, but it's larger than a universe.

Originally posted by Mindset
Ok, so it's not necessarily larger than a multiverse, but it's larger than a universe.

The megaverse is just a term used to refer to the the marvel properties that exist beyond the borders of the multiverse. It covers a bigger area than the multiverse, hence why they called it a bigger grouping. However the realms and the universe contained within this megaverse group arent necessarily bigger than realities found in the multiverse. Thats the only issue i had.

So the New Universe and Shadowline and possibly Malibus realities since the acqusition by Marvel. They'd all come under the megaverse term.

I'm gonna kill you, GS.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm gonna kill you, GS.

The megaverse realities arent necessarily bigger than the multiverse realities. The megaverse just accounts for marvel properties out of the multiverse. Simple. Hows that?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Feats wise she trumps both of them.

LT's biggest feats are erecting an impenetrable barrier around a universe. Some people say disabling the IG but it is an inanimate object, he never faced down an IG wielder.

LT's top in terms of how he's regarded and through statements by other characters. Feats wise hes bettered by many.

This might be true. Also Thanos with THOTI regarded him as the most powerful. Having in mind Protege was even more powerful than LT, yes even if for a short amount of time, Protege was the top dog.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Protege is an unknown. He allegedly duplicate TOAA's power as claimed by himself but did nothing to prove this and furthermore got taken out by a Celestial, beings who throughout continuity are individually at least less than the greatest abstracts. People should be looking at Proteges defeat by a Celestial as a demotion as opposed to quite illogically seeing the situation as reason to amp this Celestial to omnipotent proportions based solely on Proteges unproven claims.

Actually it's more reasonable and logical that Scathan was in this case especially empowered to stop the maniac (especially when in BIO it's said that then Scathan saved all realities. If he would be degraded, then others could stop him, but they couldn't, that's why when Protege was on his way to finish them, Scathan came and stoped him, hence confirmed Scathan saved all realites. So based on that, it's logical and it sounds he had the power or role for this occasion).

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just to summarize, LT is top in role and regard from other characters, feats wise he leaves a lot to be desired.

Duplicated LT power. He was just immature and saying he would replace and became the new TOAA.
LT not actually held two brothers, but two megaverses in his hands (which may only be a universe size (we don't know acutally, but let's take it as a size of the universe), but still he also held two brothers within easily (again mentioning LT omnipotence), maybe not saying much, but not less than WPOTC helding the universe and manipulating it, and I am saying this, because LT could actually replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe and no one could stop him, if he wouldn't change his mind. He would simply replace it and that is far more than what WPOTC did. Maybe not a feat, but we know he would be capable of it).

How can Phoenix trumps them both, when Protege actually took on the most powerful beings in MU including LT (the top dog in MU) and it was actually shown they together weren't match for him, if not for Scathan (LT also confirming it). Maybe he didn't finish the feat, but still was more powerful than them combined.
When PF will be shown capable of going toe to toe against such powerhouses combined, then let's talk.

Honestly, I think someone like LT or Protege would make a joke out of PF or embaress it.

And in such cases as with Protege, feats don't even matter so much or actually finishing the feat, when we know what was actually happening and who was actually in the game.

And I also think that you know or consider LT being more powerful than the Phoenix.

Originally posted by Xplosive
This might be true. Also Thanos with THOTI regarded him as the most powerful. Having in mind Protege was even more powerful than LT, yes even if for a short amount of time, Protege was the top dog.



Actually it's more reasonable and logical that Scathan was in this case especially empowered to stop the maniac (especially when in BIO it's said that then Scathan saved all realities. If he would be degraded, then others could stop him, but they couldn't, that's why when Protege was on his way to finish them, Scathan came and stoped him, hence confirmed Scathan saved all realites. So based on that, it's logical and it sounds he had the power or role for this occasion).



Duplicated LT power. He was just immature and saying he would replace and became the new TOAA.
LT not actually held two brothers, but two megaverses in his hands (which may only be a universe size (we don't know acutally, but let's take it as a size of the universe), but still he also held two brothers within easily (again mentioning LT omnipotence), maybe not saying much, but not less than WPOTC helding the universe and manipulating it, and I am saying this, because LT could actually replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe and no one could stop him, if he wouldn't change his mind. He would simply replace it and that is far more than what WPOTC did. Maybe not a feat, but we know he would be capable of it).

How can Phoenix trumps them both, when Protege actually took on the most powerful beings in MU including LT (the top dog in MU) and it was actually shown they together weren't match for him, if not for Scathan (LT also confirming it). Maybe he didn't finish the feat, but still was more powerful than them combined.
When PF will be shown capable of going toe to toe against such powerhouses combined, then let's talk.

Honestly, I think someone like LT or Protege would make a joke out of PF or embaress it.

Dont need to tackle this statement for statement so i'll respond with a few brief points.

Proteges claims were conclusively unproven. He did nothing on panel to back up the claims that he had TOAA or LT's power, he merely took on an LT like physical form and thats that. Until you can show me an on panel display of this power then its inconclusive.

Celestials in continuity are below the most powerful of the abstracts. The fact that Scathan took out Protege speaks for how over hyped Protege was and does not hype Scathan up to omnipotence given that Proteges claims were unproven. Present a display of Protege with TOAA or LT's power as opposed to just having a similar three headed form or drop the point.

As for the Brothers, please keep up with current continuity. The brothers were retconned from being embodiments of their respective multiverses DC and Marvel beyond LT to just being powerful beings who could craft realities. They were not the embodiments of realities therefore LT holding them in his hand does not equate to him holding megaverses in his hand. Furthermore its not just the act of Jean holding the 616 reality in her hand that made the feat special, it was the fact that she had total control of all of its matter down to the atomic level, materialized and then held it in her hand.

Show the proof, or drop the point. You can continue to believe what you wish, however unless you have the relevant comic scans, dont present it here as fact.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And in such cases as with Protege, feats don't even matter so much or actually finishing the feat, when we know what was actually happening and who was actually in the game.

And I also think that you know or consider LT being more powerful than the Phoenix.

Youre seeing what you want to see and then go on a rant. Not once in this thread have i said that the Phoenix Force is more powerful than LT. What i said was that whilst LT is regarded as top quite clearly amongst the cosmics and has the top status, his feats aren't as good as Phoenixes and many others which is true.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i said was that whilst LT is regarded as top quite clearly amongst the cosmics and has the top status,

Even this means nothing without feats. Just to use a real world example. The President of the United States is considered the most powerful man in the country. Brock Lesnar is merely a sports figure. If they fought, who would win?

See my point? One has more authority, the PotUS (the LT), one is more powerful, Brock Lesnar (the PF).

But LT authority is derived from infinite power the presidents power is derived from authority granted by the country/people. You're not even comparing apples to oranges more like water to a rock.

@Uriel005

Who says he has "infinite power"? Need I remind you, the only reason the Infinity Gems stopped working in unison, was because Adam Warlock submitted willingly to the Tribunal's judgment.

Seems to me he doesn't have infinite power, just that the other powers and principalities are willing to subject themselves to his orders.

If you doubt, see the whole What If : Korvac fiasco. Keep in mind there is only one LT throughout the multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT could just replace 616 with the Ultimate Universe. Whats the basis for this fantasy? Dont make up feats based on characters high regard for LT. That doesnt cut it here, provide a similar feat for him or drop the point.

The Brothers were retconned to just powerful beings, so as aforementioned holding them is not equivalent to holding a universe.

Protege claimed to have duplicated TOAA's power and yet looked like LT and then got owned by a Celestial. Provide a feat for Protege that verifies his claim or drop the point. Its inconclusive and the scene is riddled with contradictions. An extremely weak case.

Provide the necessary feats or drop the point. No more talk.

No no. No more talk from you and your useless feats. LT, not to mention Protege, compared to them Phoenix is really nothing more but a small fire bird.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3554/ltbackzz1.th.jpg

Living Tribunal could replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe. It's not a fantasy,... why not?..., because I said he didn't finish the feat, he was talked out of it. The point is that you know he could do it easily and was on a way and that would make WPOTC feat weak compared to it (that is why all you can say ''It wasn't a feat'', which is very weak).

Originally posted by zopzop
See my point? One has more authority, the PotUS (the LT), one is more powerful, Brock Lesnar (the PF).

Do you even realize how bad example you gave? No, really,do you realize?

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2223/marveltheend5kebbin17gt8.th.jpg

Living Tribunal, top of the food chain. Thanos when omnipotent regarded Living Tribunal as the highest power in MU.

Originally posted by zopzop
If you doubt, see the whole What If : Korvac fiasco. Keep in mind there is only one LT throughout the multiverse.

Yes and that's why he is virtually omniscient.

About Korvac. LT never used his power to finish Korvac. Korvac only survived supernova. Only why Korvac lived was because LT didn't want to kill him. He had different plan.

The only one to have infinite power is TOAA, no one else. LT is not completely omnipotent.

And two of the biggest power ever in Marvel Universe, Protege and THOTI, where was the mighty Phoenix ?

Writers probably don't even remember on it, when such powerhouses are in the game.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Uriel005

Who says he has "infinite power"? Need I remind you, the only reason the Infinity Gems stopped working in unison, was because Adam Warlock submitted willingly to the Tribunal's judgment.

Seems to me he doesn't have infinite power, just that the other powers and principalities are willing to subject themselves to his orders.

If you doubt, see the whole What If : Korvac fiasco. Keep in mind there is only one LT throughout the multiverse. There is no power greater than his own among the other abstratcs. Why would anyone doubt this?

Originally posted by Xplosive
No no. No more talk from you and your useless feats. LT, not to mention Protege, compared to them Phoenix is really nothing more but a small fire bird.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3554/ltbackzz1.th.jpg

Living Tribunal could replace 616 Universe with the Ultimate universe. It's not a fantasy,... why not?..., because I said he didn't finish the feat, he was talked out of it. The point is that you know he could do it easily and was on a way and that would make WPOTC feat weak compared to it (that is why all you can say ''It wasn't a feat'', which is very weak).



Do you even realize how bad example you gave? No, really,do you realize?

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2223/marveltheend5kebbin17gt8.th.jpg

Living Tribunal, top of the food chain. Thanos when omnipotent regarded Living Tribunal as the highest power in MU.



Yes and that's why he is virtually omniscient.

What have you actually shown? NOTHING. Talk of replacing 616 with the Ultimate Universe. TALK. Its a feat that never happened, it was just threatened, therefore mentioning it is irrelevant. Why? Because you dont know HOW he would have achieved the feat if he actually did it.

Try again.

Originally posted by Xplosive
About Korvac. LT never used his power to finish Korvac. Korvac only survived supernova. Only why Korvac lived was because LT didn't want to kill him. He had different plan.

The only one to have infinite power is TOAA, no one else. LT is not completely omnipotent.

And two of the biggest power ever in Marvel Universe, Protege and THOTI, where was the mighty Phoenix ?

Writers probably don't even remember on it, when such powerhouses are in the game.

At the end of the day, all i said is despite the great status of LT and how he is held in the highest regard by most cosmics, he does not have the feats to match up to his status. Thats all i said. If you were being credible and objective you would admit that. Not once did i say the Phoenix Force was more powerful, i said that it had much greater feats which is true.

LT's self claimed "ultimate punishment" when dealing with Korvac was to cause a sun to go supernova in Korvacs near vicinity. When this "ultimate punishment" failed LT fled saying the universe was lost and sealed it in an impenetrable force field.

Some almighty power.

Aside from that hes stopped an inanimate object from working. Not a manned IG with a wielder resisting, an IG after the wielder submitted admitting that their battle would destroy the universe which neither of them wanted.

What else has LT done?

Once again, im not saying the Phoenix Force is more powerful, im just saying that in terms of on panel feats its far more impressive. Its as simple as that.

Containing the power of the multiverse devouring M'kraan crystal on panel TWICE

Connecting all realities of the omniverse to Otherworld

Empowering one of its MANY hosts to destroy not just a universe but an entire timeline with a gesture

Empowering this same host to manipulate all of the atoms of 616 to materialize it in her palm and then alter events in the reality to regrow a more desirable timeline

The power behind the Big Bang, energy source of reality and the the event that gives the abstracts meaning.

VS

Causing a sun to go supernova

Sealing a reality in a forcefield

Theres no comparison.

LT is held in the highest regard and no doubt has top authority, however his feats of power are behind the Phoenix Force, the M'kraan crystal, HOTI and even the IG's. Not to mention a wealth of DC characters.

Originally posted by 753
There is no power greater than his own among the other abstratcs. Why would anyone doubt this?

Because theres a difference between authority/status and power.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying LT isnt top in all respects, im just saying that if hes also top in power as suggested, then it hasnt been verified conclusively on panel. Only hinted at by the reverence the abstracts hold him in.

Hes the top dog and highest authority beneath the supreme being and yet he lacks feats. That cant be successfully argued against its 100% true.

What about this?

http://img101.imageshack.us/i/ltrulesig10cf.jpg/
http://img148.imageshack.us/i/ltrecreatesqm2.jpg/

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What have you actually shown? NOTHING. Talk of replacing 616 with the Ultimate Universe. TALK. Its a feat that never happened, it was just threatened, therefore mentioning it is irrelevant. Why? Because you dont know HOW he would have achieved the feat if he actually did it.

Well in scan he actually holds both universes in his bare hands. Now, did he acutally held them and would simply replace them or it was only shown what he wanted to do or he actually literally held them. We can't know, but anyway, I have no doubt he could have done it extremely easily.

LT also recreated abstracts with a gesture when they were destroyed by IG. Eternity was also among them. I give that feat above what WPOTC did.

Originally posted by 753
What about this?

http://img101.imageshack.us/i/ltrulesig10cf.jpg/
http://img148.imageshack.us/i/ltrecreatesqm2.jpg/

What?

Adam repels some M Bodies and then LT restores order.

They aren't shown being disintegrated, just repelled in the shockwave and LT snaps his fingers and theyre standing back in their places.

Doesnt show LT is greater than the IG. What it does indicate is a superiority to the abstracts and cosmics present, but that was never in any doubt from myself.

However he later had to talk Adam out of fighting him as opposed to just taking the IG against his will, as that would have necessitated a reality destroying struggle, thereby indicating LTs power isnt significantly greater than the IG.

Likely greater? By his status and the high regard hes held in yes

Far greater?By this very instance and his lack of impressive feats

Originally posted by Xplosive
Well in scan he actually holds both universes in his bare hands. Now, did he acutally held them and would simply replace them or it was only shown what he wanted to do or he actually literally held them. We can't know, but anyway, I have no doubt he could have done it extremely easily.

Xp you need to learn to properly analyse the scenes. Where do you see LT conclusively holding two universes?

We see him holding two M bodies, representations of the timeline of both universes. Not the actual physical matter and energy of the universe as Jean Grey just one of the many hosts the Phoenix Force empowers across existence did
You are entitled to believe what you wish, but until you have actual feats displaying your point conclusively, your belief alone is not enough here.


Originally posted by Xplosive
LT also recreated abstracts with a gesture when they were destroyed by IG. Eternity was also among them. I give that feat above what WPOTC did.

Where do you see the abstracts being destroyed. All we see is them being repelled by a shockwave of energy. No statement or subsequent comic panel confirmed that they were destroyed before LT restored order therefore that is just your assumption. Not good enough.

Even if Adam did destroy them and LT recreated them, that still isnt beyond what the White Crown Phoenix has achieved and certainly below the Phoenix Force. They were mere M bodies as stated on panel. Not the actual entities themselves. As ive told you before, dont just go by scans someone else has posted, get hold of the comic and read the appropriate scene in context otherwise you just end up making errors like this one.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Well in scan he actually holds both universes in his bare hands.

Further to that point-

http://img101.imageshack.us/f/ltrulesig10cf.jpg/

That figure is a visualization. As i correctly stated just now.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What?

Adam repels some M Bodies and then LT restores order.

They aren't shown being disintegrated, just repelled in the shockwave and LT snaps his fingers and theyre standing back in their places.

Doesnt show LT is greater than the IG. What it does indicate is a superiority to the abstracts and cosmics present, but that was never in any doubt from myself.

However he later had to talk Adam out of fighting him as opposed to just taking the IG against his will, as that would have necessitated a reality destroying struggle, thereby indicating LTs power isnt significantly greater than the IG.

Likely greater? By his status and the high regard hes held in yes

Far greater?By this very instance and his lack of impressive feats They all fall, but him, which already shows he is above them in power.

LT just wanted to avoid collateral damage with the battle and he's kept the gems from working and being united again in the IG. As far as I'm concerned, he's already shown he is above the IG by feats.

Originally posted by 753
They all fall, but him, which already shows he is above them in power.

LT just wanted to avoid collateral damage with the battle and he's kept the gems from working and being united again in the IG. As far as I'm concerned, he's already shown he is above the IG by feats.

Im sorry, you dont appear to be reading my comments properly. None of this is relevant to what i said.

Did i or did i not say that this instance marks him as greater than the abstracts and that there was never any doubt about that in my mind?

Furthermore your statement about LT not wanting collateral damage is true, but the same is true for Adam. Thats the very reason why LT was able to talk him out of a battle.

However the fact that he couldn't just completely punk Adam and take it just like that, the fact that it would require a titanic struggle shows as i stated previously that he is not significantly more powerful than the IG if at all.

Nothing you've presented affects my original point that LT does not have any feats to support his status. He does not have any feats to beat Jean Greys best and lets not even bother bringing the Phoenix Force into this.

Preventing the functioning of an inanimate object is not impressive and does not mark LT as greater than a manned IG. If LT could have just disabled the IG like that when Adam was using it, he wouldve. He had to talk him out of a titanic struggle. Which shows that the IG had to be unmanned and therefore effectively a brick and that LT is not greater than an IG wielder by any significant margin.

Simples

Off on a night out, i'll deal with any replies tomorrow, or maybe later tonight when drunk

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im sorry, you dont appear to be reading my comments properly. None of this is relevant to what i said.

Did i or did i not say that this instance marks him as greater than the abstracts and that there was never any doubt about that in my mind?

Furthermore your statement about LT not wanting collateral damage is true, but the same is true for Adam. Thats the very reason why LT was able to talk him out of a battle.

However the fact that he couldn't just completely punk Adam and take it just like that, the fact that it would require a titanic struggle shows as i stated previously that he is not significantly more powerful than the IG if at all.

Nothing you've presented affects my original point that LT does not have any feats to support his status. He does not have any feats to beat Jean Greys best and lets not even bother bringing the Phoenix Force into this.

Preventing the functioning of an inanimate object is not impressive and does not mark LT as greater than a manned IG. If LT could have just disabled the IG like that when Adam was using it, he wouldve. He had to talk him out of a titanic struggle. Which shows that the IG had to be unmanned and therefore effectively a brick and that LT is not greater than an IG wielder by any significant margin.

Simples

This is what I was geting at, you said:

"Dont get me wrong, im not saying LT isnt top in all respects, im just saying that if hes also top in power as suggested, then it hasnt been verified conclusively on panel. Only hinted at by the reverence the abstracts hold him in.

Hes the top dog and highest authority beneath the supreme being and yet he lacks feats. That cant be successfully argued against its 100% true."

He does have on panel feats that show he is more powerfull than all the other abstratcs. He tanked the blast that blew them all out.

Even with all the gems, Richards couldnt erase tehm from reality or neutralize their power, bu the LT turned them off effortlessly.

Originally posted by 753
He tanked the blast that blew them all out.

That was only their M-Bodies. Just like when Maelstrom thought he "killed" Anomaly but he only destroyed it's M-Body. I even think one of the Celestials wasn't knocked back and was on his feet fighting the blast.



When was this? I'm interested in the issue.

And even then it means nothing. The Gems only stopped working because Adam willingly submitted himself to the judgment.

GS is correct. They were only M bodies. If it was totatlity, IG would have nothing on it.

For LT, I said, maybe he was holding both universes in his bare hands and would simply replace them or was just shown what he wanted to do (a visualization). It's what GS said, M bodies.
Anyway, if he wanted to replace them, like he had in mind, he would have done it. No doubt about it. I think he would just simply replace them. The point is that all in all, it was hinted he would replace them himself and the point is they hinted he was capable of it (we just don't know how).

I don't even want to debate about if LT is above IG. It's clear he is. The problem sometimes here on KMC is that ''If not for a feat, no proof and it doesn't matter what you tell'', especially when considering LT, when he is regarded by Marvel as the top tog only second to TOAA.
I know you said that you are not arguing that LT might be the top dog, but then you also saying that LT may no be above IG at all based on that and that. I see it as pointless.
If LT literally wouldn't be above IG, then no matter what PF has done, he would be regadred automatically by Marvel below IG. Simple as that. Feats wouldn't matter.

And wasn't there a time when LT actually again just said and IG was again powered up, working again?

Originally posted by 753
He does have on panel feats that show he is more powerfull than all the other abstratcs. He tanked the blast that blew them all out.

Only because someone like Eternity wasn't in it's totatlity, that is why, he was blasted.
Not to argue, of course LT is still above them.
Thanos with THOTI said it himself that Living Tribunal is the top of the food chain, saying the Living Tribunal si the highest. It was clear Thanos regared him as greatest of all.

And I want to see Phoenix being in battles when greatest powers in MU are involved (as in case such as Protege and THOTI).
Do writers simply forget it or they just think it has no place in there with them.

Originally posted by zopzop
That was only their M-Bodies. Just like when Maelstrom thought he "killed" Anomaly but he only destroyed it's M-Body. I even think one of the Celestials wasn't knocked back and was on his feet fighting the blast.



When was this? I'm interested in the issue.

And even then it means nothing. The Gems only stopped working because Adam willingly submitted himself to the judgment. It's in the illuminati miniseries.

LT still did something someone with all the gems cant do. more thant that, what makes you claim LT could only turn them off because AW submited? The story shows they both wanted to avoid colateral damage. thsi proves LT would have a hard time taking it from him by farce, but not that he couldnt do it.

And I want to see Phoenix being in battles when greatest powers in MU are involved (as in case such as Protege and THOTI).
Do writers simply forget it or they just think it has no place in there with them.

This proves nothing really. Where was Oblivion/Death/Infinity/Anomaly (I mean this guy was immune to the Infinity Gauntlet)/Inbetweener( he's immune to the Infinity Gems)/Vishanti etc... in cases like the Protege or the Infinity Gauntlet affair?

Where were the Infinites during the THOTI fiasco? They dwarfed Eternity in size and power.

Why the hell was "Hawk God" and the Beyonder (who's half a Cosmic Cube) involved in the Protege business? Why did the Living Tribunal need to draw power from The Eye of Agamotto to banish the Protege (I mean the Vishanti are nobodies right since they were never involved in any "cosmic" encounter)?

Originally posted by 753
LT still did something someone with all the gems cant do. more thant that, what makes you claim LT could only turn them off because AW submited? The story shows they both wanted to avoid colateral damage. thsi proves LT would have a hard time taking it from him by farce, but not that he couldnt do it.

Why risk "collateral damage" if he could turn them off without Adam submitting? Because he couldn't do it until Adam submitted himself to the LT's judgment.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why risk "collateral damage" if he could turn them off without Adam submitting? Because he couldn't do it until Adam submitted himself to the LT's judgment. He could probably rip them from him by force, he just couldn't avoid the colalteral damage of the confrontation.

That may be true but we'll never know. The fact is he couldn't "shut them down" without Adam's consent though. That's what GS and I were trying to say.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Further to that point-

http://img101.imageshack.us/f/ltrulesig10cf.jpg/

That figure is a visualization. As i correctly stated just now.

I was right! Look at the Celestial tank that blast! Celestials 4 teh win!

i have a question. i thought wandas warp was global or a little more than but i read some places its universal. im confused

Originally posted by sexyalexi
i have a question. i thought wandas warp was global or a little more than but i read some places its universal. im confused

Wandas warp was global however in creating House of M on Earth she changed events in history and affected people who have interacted with intergalactic races and beings therefore her alteration had a knock on effect of indirectly affecting reality on a universal scale, despite only directly warping Earth.

Thats why you get references to the scale of the warp being global numerous times as well as references to her affecting the whole universe:

"global alteration"

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8048/uncannyxmen462p18.th.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
I was right! Look at the Celestial tank that blast! Celestials 4 teh win!

Well spotted.

Originally posted by zopzop
This proves nothing really. Where was Oblivion/Death/Infinity/Anomaly (I mean this guy was immune to the Infinity Gauntlet)/Inbetweener( he's immune to the Infinity Gems)/Vishanti etc... in cases like the Protege or the Infinity Gauntlet affair?

Where were the Infinites during the THOTI fiasco? They dwarfed Eternity in size and power.

Why the hell was "Hawk God" and the Beyonder (who's half a Cosmic Cube) involved in the Protege business? Why did the Living Tribunal need to draw power from The Eye of Agamotto to banish the Protege (I mean the Vishanti are nobodies right since they were never involved in any "cosmic" encounter)?

I never say it proves anything, I only said I want to see PF when such powers are involved. I know the PF would be useless as others were, but it would be kool to see it among them facing such powers directly.

And IG can't compare to Protege, not to mention THOTI.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wandas warp was global however in creating House of M on Earth she changed events in history and affected people who have interacted with intergalactic races and beings therefore her alteration had a knock on effect of indirectly affecting reality on a universal scale, despite only directly warping Earth.

Thats why you get references to the scale of the warp being global numerous times as well as references to her affecting the whole universe:

"global alteration"

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8048/uncannyxmen462p18.th.jpg

Down with the Wanda hype.

Originally posted by Xplosive
They were only M bodies. If it was totatlity, IG would have nothing on it.

By totality what do you mean?



The guy holds architects/creators of universes in his hands. It's not farfetch for you or I to say he's can't replace universes.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpghttp://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1328/omniis2yp2.th.jpg


But from that She-Hulk book, it sounds more like he's going to replace the 616 with the ultimate universe as the main universe from which Marvel books are published. Hence, why She-Hulk argues that the 616 actually has character and is more fun than the Ultimate universe. Which is true that the 616 is much more fun for Marvelite's with it's number of heroes and established history than the Ultimates books. But should anyone by surprise that She-Hulk is breaking the 4th wall?

Also, Magus with 5 cosmic cube created a duplicate universe and began merging the two universe and increased it's rate after attaining an incomplete Gauntlet (and losing the 5 CC at the same time).

Infinity War 5. The 5 CC merging the two universes. This is before the LT ruled the Gauntlet could work again.

Sleep Walker seeing the effects of the merge with his own eyes.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1411/infintywars0502.th.jpg

Thor and Watcher feeling the effects.
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3567/infintywars0503.th.jpg

Merging universes is within the power of the CC and IG. And neither is comparable to LT who holds two creators of universes in his hand.



Of course it's clear. Why are you bothering to debate anyone on that? Eternity asked Tribunal to intervene at the start of the IG and he refused on a technicality. After Eternity brings it up a second time with Warlock's sanity being the charge, LT snapped his fingers and stopped an attack that floored everyone.

Lol at the argument that one Celestial looks like it's withstanding the attack and therefore it minimizes the Tribunal's feat in some way. That is Ziran the Tester, not even the most powerful of Celestials. Ziran got stomped by along the TOAA Celestial so the fact he was on his feet for one panel is a blessing to him by the artist. Reverse the question and ask what power does the Infinity Gauntlet hold over the Tribunal when it was stomping the abstracts half a dozen times throughout the series? Then add to the fact the Gems couldn't even work together when formed because of his ruling. The only power to defeat the Tribunal was the HOTU which Thanos points out is more powerful than the previous powers he held: the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gauntlet. And like you said Xplosive, he called LT top dog after holding Eternity in his hand.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
By totality what do you mean?

I meant in its whole, not only a visualization, did he acutally mean his totatlity, Multi-Eternity. Multi-Eternity is whole.

Or am I wrong?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The guy holds architects/creators of universes in his hands. It's not farfetch for you or I to say he's can't replace universes.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpghttp://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1328/omniis2yp2.th.jpg


But from that She-Hulk book, it sounds more like he's going to replace the 616 with the ultimate universe as the main universe from which Marvel books are published. Hence, why She-Hulk argues that the 616 actually has character and is more fun than the Ultimate universe. Which is true that the 616 is much more fun for Marvelite's with it's number of heroes and established history than the Ultimates books. But should anyone by surprise that She-Hulk is breaking the 4th wall?

Also, Magus with 5 cosmic cube created a duplicate universe and began merging the two universe and increased it's rate after attaining an incomplete Gauntlet (and losing the 5 CC at the same time).

Infinity War 5. The 5 CC merging the two universes. This is before the LT ruled the Gauntlet could work again.

Sleep Walker seeing the effects of the merge with his own eyes.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1411/infintywars0502.th.jpg

Thor and Watcher feeling the effects.
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3567/infintywars0503.th.jpg

Merging universes is within the power of the CC and IG. And neither is comparable to LT who holds two creators of universes in his hand.

Yes, I think he would just simply replace them extremely easily (616 with UU).
About a Megaverse, it says somewhere it's a universe outside of mainstream Multiverse, so it might be only size of a universe, but here it says it's actually more than a single Multiverse. It that is the case, this tops any PF feat. Not that it needs to top any PF feat, when we know LT is simply above it.
Like abstracts, PF is also subject to the LT authority.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Of course it's clear. Why are you bothering to debate anyone on that? Eternity asked Tribunal to intervene at the start of the IG and he refused on a technicality. After Eternity brings it up a second time with Warlock's sanity being the charge, LT snapped his fingers and stopped an attack that floored everyone.

I don't want to debate it, because it's clear. That's why I said it's pointless. ''LT didn't do that and that'', no, LT is above IG and the end.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol at the argument that one Celestial looks like it's withstanding the attack and therefore it minimizes the Tribunal's feat in some way. That is Ziran the Tester, not even the most powerful of Celestials. Ziran got stomped by along the TOAA Celestial so the fact he was on his feet for one panel is a blessing to him by the artist. Reverse the question and ask what power does the Infinity Gauntlet hold over the Tribunal when it was stomping the abstracts half a dozen times throughout the series? Then add to the fact the Gems couldn't even work together when formed because of his ruling. The only power to defeat the Tribunal was the HOTU which Thanos points out is more powerful than the previous powers he held: the Cosmic Cube and Infinity Gauntlet. And like you said Xplosive, he called LT top dog after holding Eternity in his hand.

I agree. And IG acutally did destroy someone on panel, torn apart, I think it was Chaos or someone else?. But that doesn't matter.

Like with Protege, it's nothing to debate. It was clear LT himself said that ALL realities now depends on Protege what he wanted to do, LT knew he wasn't able to stop him, that is why it was confirmed Scathan saved all realities.

Then you have, ''Protege didn't show that and that etc...'', no, it was clear what LT said and it isn't even for a debate. PIS or not, it happened and Protege was the real deal and one of the most powerful beings ever in MU and one of rare who topped LT (LT knew that himself).
And we only saw Scathan once, so we don't know what authority he has/had (so we can't use ''He is a Celestial, who is below abstracts'', well here this wasn't the case) or what job he had, but it was clear LT wouldn't be able stop Protege, if not for Scathan.

And only one to actually defeat him was THOTI.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I meant in its whole, not only a visualization, did he acutally mean his totatlity, Multi-Eternity. Multi-Eternity is whole.

Or am I wrong?

If he's referring to his Multiverse version, he might be telling the truth. But if he's just referring to the 616 universe, he's likely lying and trying to downplay Warlock's attack. Seeing as power lesser than the Gauntlet created a duplicate 616 universe and was merging the two.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Seeing as power lesser than the Gauntlet created a duplicate 616 universe and was merging the two.

I completely forgot about this, merging universes. Playing with 616 Universe isn't even that much as I see.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I completely forgot about this, merging universes. Playing with 616 Universe isn't even that much as I see.

Youre missing the bigger picture.

Cosmic cubes take hours to merge two universes, the IG takes minutes, within a few seconds just ONE of the MANY hosts that the Phoenix Force empowers was able to materialize the 616 universe in the palm of her hand without a hint of strain. Just a few seconds concentration and she had total atomic control over it.

Furthermore within the space of a few seconds Jean telekinetically wiped out a timeline. Not a universe which is just reality at one specific point in time, but she telekinetically wiped out 150 years of timeline in seconds. The difference in matter and energy between a universe and 150 years of timeline or even several universes at a specific state in time and 150 years of a timeline is phenomenal. Jean Grey did it in seconds, what does that say for the Phoenix Force who was simultaneously empowering the Phoenix Corps, is the multiversal nexus of psionic power and the power source behind Big Bangs?

There is no comparison whatsoever.

The IG's feats pale into insignificance and so does LT's. For all his alleged power he has done nothing of note except surround a universe in a forcefield.

Holding visualizations of Eternity does not cut it.

Holding the two brothers that he created JOINTLY with Spectre is not enough.

LT is the top authority in Marvel, but he lacks the feats to match that status.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol at the argument that one Celestial looks like it's withstanding the attack and therefore it minimizes the Tribunal's feat in some way. That is Ziran the Tester, not even the most powerful of Celestials. Ziran got stomped by along the TOAA Celestial so the fact he was on his feet for one panel is a blessing to him by the artist.

The fact that he was still on his feet while the others were thrown around was something the writer and artist wanted to portray so take it up with them. The Celestial stood his ground while Galactus and others were tossed about like leaves in the wind.



The Tribunal ran with his tail between his legs vs Korvac. His highest on panel showing of power was making a star go nova.

The gems only stopped functioning when Warlock submitted to the LT's judgment. Otherwise why the big showdown, if the LT could just turn them off on a whim?

Originally posted by zopzop


The gems only stopped functioning when Warlock submitted to the LT's judgment. Otherwise why the big showdown, if the LT could just turn them off on a whim?

Precisely.

LT had already decided that Adam was in the wrong and had made his judgement that he should give up the Infinity Gauntlet.

Why go through the rigmarole of talking Adam out of a battle and highlighting the consequences, if he could simply snap his fingers and render the device inoperable.

Its clear he couldn't just do that because also if he could then why would the consequence of resisting be a reality destroying struggle if LT could just snap his fingers and disable the IG?

The only explanation is that LT power wise is not as far beyond the IG as some people would like to believe.

Despite his top authority over all, his feats and displays of power just dont match up.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Down with the Wanda hype.

so the range of her power is global but indirectly universal?

Originally posted by sexyalexi
so the range of her power is global but indirectly universal? It would be at least universal. I personally think it is omniversal as despite the fact that the wave only spread to the whole omniverse because it hit the nexus, the raw power fueling it was still hers.

Originally posted by zopzop
The fact that he was still on his feet while the others were thrown around was something the writer and artist wanted to portray so take it up with them. The Celestial stood his ground while Galactus and others were tossed about like leaves in the wind.

That's your best come back? Ziran was the weaker of the two Celestials there and you think that one depiction somehow puts him on LT's level? So did Ziran get a power up or something because under the same writer and artist he was getting smack the two other IG wielder. And Nebula was the most incompetent user.

TOAA Celestial and Ziran against Thanos.
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2808/infinitygauntlet5p11.th.jpg

Nebula owning everyone including Ziran.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2722/infinitygauntlet6p17.th.jpg

Ziran as a marble statue.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6974/infinitygauntlet6p21and.th.jpg

You think that one scene puts Ziran's durability = LT >Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, and Order?




Korvac who absorbed Galactus' ship? Now show me any other low end feat like this from LT? You have one bad appearance for a character with a long established history. Compared to other characters, LT has a far better record than any of them, including Doom, Thanos, Spiderman, Wolverine, Superman, Eternity, Dormammu, etc.

Phoenix Force
- Driven into a portal by X-Men & Ultra Force
- Captured and split into two by an alien vessel
- Shattered into billions of pieces and it's host died by a planetary attack from some D list mutant
- Dragged back to life by Shi'Ar weaponry.



He submitted because he knew the outcome already. He even says that he acts surprise even though he knew of the outcome (because of his omniscience). If he saw that he could've won, you think he would have given up? Reality could be repaired if destroyed. But he wasn't going to put his reality through a confront that he could not have won. Sure LT could fix the 616, but Warlock's it's going to be on head. He didn't want be a that kind of God.

Sure, the Tribunal can't shut it off on a whim if you want to argue that. But not once did the Tribunal back down from any of Warlock's threat and rendered judgement. Not once has the Tribunal been affected in any way by the Gauntlet. On the contrary, the IG's power was reversed and it's effect nulled. Warlock was the one who was shocked by LT's power and still tried denying it. This is akin to a fight between Gladiator and Luke Cage. Luke Cage wouldn't do any thing to Gladiator and the only damaged done will be to there surroundings. Gladiator would win in the end and so would LT if Warlock decided to fight.

Originally posted by 753
It would be at least universal. I personally think it is omniversal as despite the fact that the wave only spread to the whole omniverse because it hit the nexus, the raw power fueling it was still hers.

i kinda thought that if there hadn't been a breach or crack in Otherworld and her warp affected multiple realities simultaneously, that her power would be multiversal. it kinda seemed to me that it spread from reality to reality.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That's your best come back? Ziran was the weaker of the two Celestials there and you think that one depiction somehow puts him on LT's level? So did Ziran get a power up or something because under the same writer and artist he was getting smack the two other IG wielder. And Nebula was the most incompetent user.

TOAA Celestial and Ziran against Thanos.
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2808/infinitygauntlet5p11.th.jpg

Nebula owning everyone including Ziran.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2722/infinitygauntlet6p17.th.jpg

Ziran as a marble statue.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6974/infinitygauntlet6p21and.th.jpg

You think that one scene puts Ziran's durability = LT >Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, and Order?


No one is saying a single Celestial is a match for the IG. What impressed me was Ziran standing his ground while the other Abstracts and Cosmics were thrown around. It's obvious Adam wasn't unleashing a "kill" blast, he was just swatting them away. Ziran withstood, the others weren't so lucky. It's right there on panel.






Unless I'm missing something, it has been a while, Korvac didn't absorb Galactus' ship. He interfaced with it and gained knowledge that made him a godlike being. Huge difference.

The problem with the LT is, he has that one low level feat and everything else is speculation.

For all the PF low feats it has high feats to counter. GS and I listed a few in this universe and others.





The whole point was, the LT couldn't shut off the IG on a whim. That's what GS and I have been saying all along. If they fought who knows what would have happened aside from some wide-scale destruction and even then I doubt that.

The Tribunal himself said that making that star go nova was his "ultimate judgment".

Warlock would have probably wound up beating his @$$.

And what if we go by LT holding two megaverses like nothing (Megaverse more han a single Multiverse).

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1328/omniis2yp2.th.jpg

Megaverse more than a single Multiverse. Tha trumps any PF feat. So LT also wins by power display, by feats, holding two megaverse like feather.

Originally posted by zopzop
No one is saying a single Celestial is a match for the IG. What impressed me was Ziran standing his ground while the other Abstracts and Cosmics were thrown around. It's obvious Adam wasn't unleashing a "kill" blast, he was just swatting them away. Ziran withstood, the others weren't so lucky. It's right there on panel.

So what's your point then? So you wanna argue that Ziran is more powerful than Eternity and there other abstracts right? I just want to be clear on this. Ziran > Chaos, Order, Eternity, Galactus, etc. It's right there on panel where he was wasted along with the leader of the Celestials when they first attacked Thanos. It's also there on panel when he's turned into marble. How's that on the same level as the Tribunal who just sat there and stopped the attack on his court by just snapping his fingers?



Knowledge of Galactus' Worldship gave Korvac god-like powers. Knowledge is power. Either way, this is Galactus' World Ship. The being who's as old as the universe y'know? And this was just a bad showing for LT.



- So it was speculation when he stopped Warlock's attack dead and reversed the affects of the Gauntlet? What part of that is speculation?
- LT's mere appearance removed Zom from the 616, a being that was trapped by Eternity and even killed the Ancient One.
- Thanos with TOAA's power says LT is the top being. How's that speculation when a guy who wields the power of Marvel's true supreme being claim LT is the top dog among the cosmic forces?
- How is it speculation when Kubik points out LT being the top being as well.
- Dweller In Darkness states the exact same thing while observing LT holding two architect of realities in his hand.
- She-Hulk argue to save the 616 from being replaced with the Ultimate universe by LT
- Warlock states LT is the servant of "one who is above even the Gods". And that's after he said Eternity accused him of being unfit to be God.
- He made Surfer into a universe like Eternity just so Surfer can experience Godhood.
- How about when he one-shot removed a being that was too vast for any one dimension.



Like? The Phoenix Force has among the worst low showings of the abstracts.



Warlock and LT knew what would happen. Warlock would've lost. At the beginning of the series, Eternity begged LT to step in. When LT stepped in and his entire court was attacked by Warlock, LT sat there and stopped that attack dead in it's track. Find me any character that's stopped the IG's attack that was flooring the abstracts? Warlock was shocked because LT made a joke out of his attack. Not once was the Tribunal scared or shocked by anything Warlock did. You can't say the same about Warlock when it came to LT's actions. And I told you already, if you want to claim LT couldn't have shut it down on a whim then fine. But the only thing endanger if they fought was the universe and Warlock, not the Tribunal. Even the Phoenix Force blink and cause things to happen. LT's words and gestures can reality and stomp people.



And that's why that's one of his worse showings. Everyone knows that. It's obvious it isn't his ultimate. His ultimate judgement was sealing off the universe which he did and Korvac couldn't escape.



Please, are you being ignorant? LT had one bad showing and some how Warlock is going to beat him up? But then again, it was the IG. And it was Galactus' Worldship. Thank goodness LT didn't get his ass handed to him to Shi'Ar weaponry, shatter into a billion pieces by D-list mutant with star-for-brain, or driven back by two Earth teams not worth the Defenders time.

But you're going to argue the Shi'Ar's technology is far superior to Galactus' Worldship right? And star-for-brains Xorn harnessing the magnetic field of Earth is more powerful than Korvac who shut off the skyfathers and demons lords access to Earth lol. That nova set off by LT is more powerful than the magnetic energy of Earth y'know? So if LT and Phoenix were to meet up, LT could just harness the power of Earth's sun and give the host a solar stroke that would shatter the Phoenix Force into a trillion pieces.

How do you argue with a straight face that LT's feats are speculation? Or that LT's average doesn't puts him below Phoenix's? Who did Phoenix defeat that's notable? Galactus? WTF.

THE MOST SUPREME POWER. EXIST IN AND JUDGE ALL MULTIVERSES
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6103/bro25we9.th.jpg

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So if LT and Phoenix were to meet up

If they were to meet, PF would just bow to him.

Originally posted by Xplosive
If they were to meet, PF would just bow to him.

I concur.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So what's your point then? So you wanna argue that Ziran is more powerful than Eternity and there other abstracts right? I just want to be clear on this. Ziran > Chaos, Order, Eternity, Galactus, etc. It's right there on panel where he was wasted along with the leader of the Celestials when they first attacked Thanos. It's also there on panel when he's turned into marble. How's that on the same level as the Tribunal who just sat there and stopped the attack on his court by just snapping his fingers?

The writer gave Eternity an "out" by saying if that this was his actuality rather than a representation the Gauntlet's blast effect would have been nonexistent.

But in Ziran's defense, he's never been owned by Nightmare.

On panel you can clearly see the other abstractions get blasted back. Galactus is in the very front of the panel knocked upsidedown and backwards. Ziran is there struggling, but holding his ground.

PS the Tribunal didn't stop the blast. He undid it's effects after the fact.




Yes but he didn't absorb it as you originally said. There is a difference.




He didn't stop the attack. He undid the damage after the fact. The same way he didn't force the gems to stop working till after Warlock consented to his judgment.

Hell, Phoenix made Mastermind one with the universe (twice), so I don't see this as something huge. He didn't make him a universe, he gave him a taste of Godhood, same as Phoenix did for Mastermind.

I'll give you the Zom, the HotI, and the other mentions. But most of them we're not shown much on panel. Like Odin/Seth shaking the multiverse and all reality in danger of dying as a result of their battle.





A good portion of the low showings were it's avatars being schooled.





How can we assume Warlock would have lost? When the Tribunal states he represents a power that is above the gems, Warlock says this has yet to be seen. If he knew he would eventually lose the gems if they fought, why even make the statement.

And, yes, GS and I were saying the LT couldn't have shut down the gems without the user's consent. That by itself should tell us something.




Even as he was supposedly sealing the universe off, he warned the other abstracts to escape if they had means too. Then after he supposedly sealed it, Order/Chaos said they didn't want to go anywhere since other universes had their own versions of Order/Chaos. So they stayed. Yet why were they even debating the fact if the Tribunal had already run for it and sealed the universe off?





When Galactus came to separate the PF from Rachel and as a result all the stars in creation started winking out of existence, you stated that Galactus was killing the actual PF while GS and I stated he was only killing Rachel (it's even mentioned on panel). So let's assume you were right and he was slowly killing the PF.

Yet when Xorn supposedly blew the PF into a billion pieces nothing happened to creation. The stars weren't phased at all. How can this be when he supposedly nearly killed the PF with an EMP blast?

See the inconsistency?



Yes and from that very same issue, you said that the PF was the lowest on the chain.

Then when you kindly provided the scan, Kubik said the level at which the stars (and the source of their power) operate on is "the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities", when I asked you if you know what this statement means you just ignored me. Let me ask you again, do you realize what Kubik was saying in that statement?

Originally posted by Xplosive
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2936/ltrulescl3.th.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1328/omniis2yp2.th.jpg

Megaverse more than a single Multiverse. Tha trumps any PF feat. So LT also wins by power display, by feats, holding two megaverse like feather.

Xp i have told you this already and i do not want to repeat this.


The brothers were retconned into reality creators which that very issue said were created jointly by LT and the Spectre.

Furthermore once again you have misinterpreted an official statement. The description from the handbook doesnt say a megaverse is bigger than a multiverse, because it isnt.

Once again i will explain what a megaverse is-

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm

A megaverse is a grouping for realities that do not share the same cosmology (abstracts/cosmic and mystical hierarchical structure) that all the realities within the main multiverse share. Examples would be the New Universe and Shadowline. However as these realities are more closely tied to Marvel and its multiverse, the term Megaverse was coined to refer to these realities and categorize them as Marvel property as opposed to them being linked to another comic companies multiverse.

However with the Marvel Vs DC crossover both companies multiverses were featured as each one of the Brothers. However the retcon saw that story as being ignored with the Brothers instead being demoted to guardians of each companies megaverse(comic properties that are outside their main multiverses but still tied to either marvel or dc). Thats what the handbook means, its letting you know that one Brother is guardian of Marvels megaverse, one of DC's(hence the joint collaboration between Spectre and LT making them) and with one megaverse being tied to Marvel and one being tied to DC they therefore encompass more than a single multiverse. These vaguely related comic properties encompass two, Marvels multiverse and DC's.


I've made that simple enough to understand. Please do not refer to the Brothers as megaverses again.

Please do not misinterpret official statements and tell me the megaverse is bigger than the multiverse.

Originally posted by zopzop
The writer gave Eternity an "out" by saying if that this was his actuality rather than a representation the Gauntlet's blast effect would have been nonexistent.

The writer gave nothing. Starlin wrote Eternity in character, an arrogant being. Just because Eternity claims his so called totality wasn't going to be affected, it doesn't mean it's true.



So you're claiming Ziran is greater than Eternity. Good luck with that one. Especially considering Ziran is merely a foot soldier of Eternity. And what did Nightmare do to Eternity? If i recalled correctly, Eternity was in no harm and owned the hell out of Nightmare and an empowered Juggernaut. And atleast it's a fear lord and not some Shi'Ar tech. lol



So you believe Ziran > Eternity, Chaos, Order, and Galactus. I get it now.



He stopped it mid attack and said let order be restored to this court and Warlock's like how? lol. Just because it went from one page to another doesn't mean the attack ended. If you can't follow the transitioning between panels and pages then why bother reading comic books?



Yeah for you then. He still gain power that allowed him to shut off the gods and extra-dimensional deities link with Earth.



Only you would argue that nonsense. Warlock had only begun attacking the court. It went from one panel of an omidirectional attack to the next panel with LT snapping his fingers and ended the attack, reversing it's affect. Where are you getting this nonsense he did after the fact? Because it shift from one panel to the next showing ONLY LT's hand? That's your proof?



He did make Surfer into a universe. He turned Surfer into a universe - an entire cosmos inside of him. Not the same thing.



Not much shown? He held two architects/creator of realities in his hand. What has Phoenix shown on panel that's comparable?



It's powers did nothing to aid it's host that's for sure. A what portion are you talking about? Would you like to bring actual evidence on panel saying were just avatars that were torn into two, beaten back by the Ultra Force/X-Men, or shattered into a billion pieces? I want actual references, not speculations.



Because he acts surprise despite knowing the outcome. He outright admitted it that he knew of the outcome when the court began due to his omniscience and still time and time again he acts surprise despite knowing the outcome. He's as cocky as Eternity is, but he wasn't going to win that fight and he knew it. He kept pushing things despite his omniscience but when push came to shove and the Tribunal ruled and was willing to fight for it despite wrecking reality, Warlock wasn't going to go through it because he knew of the outcome and it wasn't going to be him that won.



Yeah, it tells you LT would've have to fight for it. But hey, the only one who looked like a chump was Warlock when LT stopped his attack. And under the same writer, LT did not intervene when Thanos had the Gauntlet due to a technicality. That should tell you something about how Starlin felt regarding the Tribunal.



So did Korvac escape? Well okay then.



Nope. Xorn shattered the PF into a billion pieces and killed it's host. He didn't kill the Force. Like shown before, an alien ship separated the Phoenix Force into two versions of itself. The bad showing is it's failure to protect it's host and the fact that it gets manipulated and dragged about the cosmos by alien weaponry. Galactus was going to kill the Phoenix Force and hence why stars began fading. If it was just Rachel he was killing, nothing would happen to the universe because other host have died before including it's main host Jean. Jean is still in her graves for 6 years now and no stars even blinked at her death.



Yes, that it was the bases of the universe. The wellspring of life. But that's life. Because these particles hold sway over the soul, the mind, time, the void, the concept of order, the concept of chaos, love, hate, and the dead right? This same power source that the Phoenix draws upon somehow puts it above the judge of multiverses and servant to one who's above even the gods right? That's nice statement for you to up Phoenix's feat but when all was said and done Kubik and Kosmos marveled at the Tribunal who he says is the most Supreme Power. A being that exist simaltanouesly in all MULTIVERSES. Phoenix did what now??

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

Phoenix Force
- Driven into a portal by X-Men & Ultra Force
- Captured and split into two by an alien vessel
- Shattered into billions of pieces and it's host died by a planetary attack from some D list mutant
- Dragged back to life by Shi'Ar weaponry.



Please read up on the Phoenix if youre going to debate about the character.



The full Phoenix in appearance or power has never been shown on panel. As the Big Bang of reality if it gathered its entirety in one place then there would be a void because the Big Bang is all.

The full Phoenix never got defeated by ultraforce and the x-men, the firebird as stated on panel, many, many times is an avatar of the Phoenix Force. It is not the Phoenix Force in its totality, but instead a representation.

When you see the firebird, you know that in most cases thats the sentience of the Force itself in operation as opposed to just a host using its power. However the firebird is just a mere manifestation of the Force. Far from all of it.

The Shiar ship blew up an already shattered(by Xorn) avatar of the Force, it reconstituted the cosmic avatar within reality and as stated shattered that which was already in bits.

However the Force as stated is mutable, indestructible cosmic life force. You cant destroy the Force it is by canon completely indestructible.

Its firebird avatars are mutable cosmic energy and can divide into multiples:

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and read Beasts assessment of the Phoenix avatars:

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

These avatars can be absorbed and used as a power source only to just reform itself afterwards:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9814/phoenixresurrectionrevea.th.jpg

Raw energy cant be destroyed, it just goes from state to state.

Each one of these firebirds is still the Phoenix Force by name, so as shown in this ultraforce crossover and titles such as Endsong and Warsong, the firebird is just a manifestation of the Force and there can be many in operation simultaneously each with varying degrees of power. The full Phoenix Force has never had a bad showing, only avatars and distracted hosts.

They already met once, PF had no choice but to listen him.

LT stomps PF.

Originally posted by Xplosive
They already met once, PF had no choice but to listen him.

LT stomps PF.

Like he stomped Korvac?

Originally posted by zopzop
Like he stomped Korvac?

Exactly, like when he trapped Korvac but unlike when the Phoenix Force getting shattered into a billion pieces. Talk about humiliation.

But hey, let's use those handbooks you love to bring up so much. From the X-Men: Phoenix Force Handbook 2010. Talk about humiliating getting captured and used as a fuel source from some alien ship. Getting shattered into a billion pieces by Xorn. Being a celestial element, one of the primal forces of the cosmos and nowhere does it say that the PF is the top being. Then there's that part about the stars dying as Galactus was destroying the PF and not Rachel. Powerful as it maybe, the Phoenix Force has among the worse record for among cosmic forces. Especially all those time when it's injured and going crazy from one reason or another and either running to the White Hot Room or hiding in a host while it heals itself.


http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/9042/xmenphoenixforcehandboo.th.jpghttp://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9042/xmenphoenixforcehandboo.th.jpghttp://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9042/xmenphoenixforcehandboo.th.jpg

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The writer gave nothing. Starlin wrote Eternity in character, an arrogant being. Just because Eternity claims his so called totality wasn't going to be affected, it doesn't mean it's true.

It doesn't mean it's false either. This statement was given before the Tribunal and the Cosmic court (he even said "Let the court note...". They'd know if he was lying so bravado would be pointless.





The Celestials don't have M-bodies, just like Galactus and Eon and Stranger. So out of the assembled M-bodies of abstracts and non abstracts only the Celestial stood it's ground vs Adam's titty fit. Shown on panel so it's not even disputable. Galactus was hurl away upside down with one of his "horns" shattered.




Yes Ziran > M-bodies of abstracts present at the Cosmic Court and the non abstracts like Galactus/Stranger/Eon/etc...





No the attack was over. He then restored order to his court. He didn't stop the attack. Just undid the damage.





Big deal S'ym and the Goblin Queen did that in another dimension too. It's not that big a deal.





No it was a quick burst of power. He was swatting them away. You can even check the issue again if you don't believe me.

The Tribunal, assuming he saw the blast coming, didn't stop it and waited till Warlock finished, then restored order.





Prove he did! He just asked him if he wanted a taste of Godhood then we see the surfer with stars and galaxies in his face. The PF has done that to Mastermind twice, once when Jean was Dark Phoenix and the other time as Rachel Summers.




Held 616 in her hand and destroyed an entire timeline, on panel.





What's to speculate?

Galactus was killing the PF in that issue of Exaclibur when he was separating it from Rachel (resulting in all the stars in creation winking out of existence) according to you earlier in another thread.

vs

Xorn "killing" the PF with no repercussions to the universe happening.

Which is it? They both can't be right.





I think you are reading it wrong. I think the writers were saying that Warlock knew it would come down to a fight and if it did reality would be wrecked and that ultimately he wasn't that "type of god". So he willing gave up the gauntlet.






The fact that the LT had to get the IG wielder's permission to rule against them working in unison, should tell you something about the IG.



Was Korvac trying to escape? No? Ok then.





See above.





Uhm you didn't get it then. The PF doesn't get it's power from stars, it's the "mother of stars" and has been refered to as such a few times. The scans GS provided states that Big Bang = PF.

Do you know what the term "principalities" referred to in Kubik's quote? The various beings Kubik introduces Kosmos to in their journey are the "principalities" of creation. And he said the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities was? You guessed it

Originally posted by zopzop
Like he stomped Korvac?

Here he actually holds a blast that would destroy galaxies and you bring supernova, which he only triggered and never attacked Korvac directly. What Korvac survived was power of the star, not Living Tribunal direct assault or his personal power.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6103/bro25we9.th.jpg

Korvac wasn't killed, because Living Tribunal didn't choose to kill him and never attacked him directly. Living Tribunal judgment was to seal him and thus disconnecting Universe from a Multiverse.
And even why Korvac survived Nova, was only because he was protected by Death.

And Phoenix Force chose to listen. It had no other choice.

Originally posted by Xplosive


And Phoenix Force chose to listen. It had no other choice.

The Phoenix CHOSE to listen as stated because she knew LT was right and that if she bonded with another hosts she could risk destroying all existence.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/6229/whatif00626.th.jpg

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6151/whatif00627.th.jpg

BIG difference from your misinterpretation. It states plain as day "It also knows that for the sake of the multiverse it must TODAY heed the Tribunals wishes"

The Phoenix was not forced into anything, the "two forces of nature" spoke and the Phoenix decided that LT was right and so as stated it chose to listen to him for that day at least.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix CHOSE to listen as stated because she knew LT was right and that if she bonded with another hosts she could risk destroying all existence.

Yeah, ok.

So you think Phoenix Force would do what THOTI did? Ok. Don't go over your head.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
BIG difference from your misinterpretation. It states plain as day "It also knows that for the sake of the multiverse it must TODAY heed the Tribunals wishes"

The Phoenix was not forced into anything, the "two forces of nature" spoke and the Phoenix decided that LT was right and so as stated it chose to listen to him for that day at least.

No, what I meant wasn't because of misinterpretation. I said that because of ''What do you think would happen if Pheonix Force would chose not to listen, when Living Tribunal appeared and said what he said?''.
Yeah, big trouble for it.