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Dark Phoenix


vs.


Krona

Krona at the level of JLA/Avengers at all other appearance levels Phoenix

Dark Phoenix all the time. Daamn u aint beating this chick unless you're Eternity and above.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dark Phoenix all the time. Daamn u aint beating this chick unless you're Eternity and above.

Is Death above Eternity?

I don't know CC you would expect it as universes die, but is marvel death just a facet of omniversal deeath? Good question

That's what I was thinking. Eternity is the embodiment of the universe, and universes die. The Phoenix is multiversal, and it is certainly above Death.

Maybe the Phoenix Force is above Eternity.

Could be

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That's what I was thinking. Eternity is the embodiment of the universe, and universes die. The Phoenix is multiversal, and it is certainly above Death.

Maybe the Phoenix Force is above Eternity.

Yeah there was already a thread about Phoenix Vs Eternity and Death and so on. I argued for Phoenix as is obvious i would lol but it ended up in a massive argument so i just thought id say that it would at least take anyone who's eternitys level to take out out Phoenix.

Where were u when i needed your support on that thread!!! lol

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah there was already a thread about Phoenix Vs Eternity and Death and so on. I argued for Phoenix as is obvious i would lol but it ended up in a massive argument so i just thought id say that it would at least take anyone who's eternitys level to take out out Phoenix.

Where were u when i needed your support on that thread!!! lol

Some people just don't know a lot about the Phoenix Force. A lot of them assume that since Jean is a member of the X-Men, and many assume that the X-Men is one of the "lesser" Superhero groups (when they really aren't,) that the Phoenix Force itself is weak. Not many of them have seen the Phoenix Force pimping Galactus.

When she first possessed itOriginally posted by Cosmic Cube
Some people just don't know a lot about the Phoenix Force. A lot of them assume that since Jean is a member of the X-Men, and many assume that the X-Men is one of the "lesser" Superhero groups (when they really aren't,) that the Phoenix Force itself is weak. Not many of them have seen the Phoenix Force pimping Galactus.

Originally posted by whirlysplat
When she first possessed it

Yes, but not many people know that. Everyone isn't as intuitive as we are, whirly.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Yes, but not many people know that. Everyone isn't as intuitive as we are, whirly.

Originally posted by whirlysplat

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Some people just don't know a lot about the Phoenix Force. A lot of them assume that since Jean is a member of the X-Men, and many assume that the X-Men is one of the "lesser" Superhero groups (when they really aren't,) that the Phoenix Force itself is weak. Not many of them have seen the Phoenix Force pimping Galactus.
Phoenix force is not higher than Eternity

That's debateable. Is Eternity above Death?

Originally posted by kgkg
Phoenix force is not higher than Eternity

True, but I wouldn't say Eternity is more important to existence than PF or more pwoerful.

Originally posted by kgkg
Phoenix force is not higher than Eternity

Why would you say that KG? The watcher says the Phoenix's power is second only to that of the Creator

Eternity is for the Marvel 616 universe but not for other universes as Phoenix is Omniversal. She is the force of Omniversal rebirth hence Phoenix I think.

Omniversal > Universal.

lol Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Omniversal > Universal.

Originally posted by whirlysplat
lol Apparently.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why would you say that KG? The watcher says the Phoenix's power is second only to that of the Creator

Before such beigns as Eternity and LT was brought up, but like I said, PF is not higher than Eternity nor is Eternity higher than PF, they are both imporant to existence, but somehow I always felt that PF has more raw power than Eternity.

Actually both Eternity and the Living Tribunal already existed by a good decade.And Claremont knew both,since he wrote issues of Dr.Strange with Eternity and was supervisor for many comics at marvel at the time (and anyway this is not an excuse for the Watcher,which couldnt possibly have not known them even if they were invented later).The real problem is whether Claremont or Morrison are acknowledged by the rest of the Marvel Universe,because in their interpretation the Phoenix is just a name for the force of Creation (with the capital C).The original idea was that when Jean Grey died on the shuttle for an instant her mind came in touch with all of creation:all of life (telepathy) all matter and energy (telekinesis).She was then able to reform herself as Phoenix,and became an avatar,or incarnation (very much in the sense in which Jesus Christ is an incarnation of God),of the primal force of Creation,which flows through everything that islanets,stars,matter,energy,time,space.
Before the retcon phoenix was not the name of the force,but only the symbol of the rebirth of the human into the divine.Notice how many times Claremont uses the term "creation" "primal force of creation" when he describes the phoenix,from the very beginning in xmen 101,when Jean says in her delirium when the x-men bring her to the hospital that the planets,the stars,all of creation is a part of her.Through her this force of creation could act in our plane of existence,and save the universe/multiverse repairing the M'Krann Crystal,which holds all of reality together.
In Morrison version the Phoenix avatars exist outside time and space
in the White Hot Room,they tend to the various broken universes when need be they get incarnated into them to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.In the kabalistic symbology that Claremont first used the Phoenix is a symbol of the incarnation of God in the mortal plane,and the Crown is the highest form of God
conceivable and the origin of everything:Presence and Source are synonims of the Crown,all three are names of the same aspect of God.

"Second only to the Creator ?

Than Phoenix Force > LT I guess ?"

Check above

I take your point KG within the 616 universe thats probably true but outside it in the omniverse I think Phoenix

Very good post Markolin Originally posted by markolin
Actually both Eternity and the Living Tribunal already existed by a good decade.And Claremont knew both,since he wrote issues of Dr.Strange with Eternity and was supervisor for many comics at marvel at the time (and anyway this is not an excuse for the Watcher,which couldnt possibly have not known them even if they were invented later).The real problem is whether Claremont or Morrison are acknowledged by the rest of the Marvel Universe,because in their interpretation the Phoenix is just a name for the force of Creation (with the capital C).The original idea was that when Jean Grey died on the shuttle for an instant her mind came in touch with all of creation:all of life (telepathy) all matter and energy (telekinesis).She was then able to reform herself as Phoenix,and became an avatar,or incarnation (very much in the sense in which Jesus Christ is an incarnation of God),of the primal force of Creation,which flows through everything that islanets,stars,matter,energy,time,space.
Before the retcon phoenix was not the name of the force,but only the symbol of the rebirth of the human into the divine.Notice how many times Claremont uses the term "creation" "primal force of creation" when he describes the phoenix,from the very beginning in xmen 101,when Jean says in her delirium when the x-men bring her to the hospital that the planets,the stars,all of creation is a part of her.Through her this force of creation could act in our plane of existence,and save the universe/multiverse repairing the M'Krann Crystal,which holds all of reality together.
In Morrison version the Phoenix avatars exist outside time and space
in the White Hot Room,they tend to the various broken universes when need be they get incarnated into them to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.In the kabalistic symbology that Claremont first used the Phoenix is a symbol of the incarnation of God in the mortal plane,and the Crown is the highest form of God
conceivable and the origin of everything:Presence and Source are synonims of the Crown,all three are names of the same aspect of God.

Wow.

markolin gets super-respect for being an extremely valuable and logical new guy.

huzzah! now i can go over to the "specific hierarchy" thread and put phoenix right up there at the top.

Originally posted by markolin
Actually both Eternity and the Living Tribunal already existed by a good decade.And Claremont knew both,since he wrote issues of Dr.Strange with Eternity and was supervisor for many comics at marvel at the time (and anyway this is not an excuse for the Watcher,which couldnt possibly have not known them even if they were invented later).The real problem is whether Claremont or Morrison are acknowledged by the rest of the Marvel Universe,because in their interpretation the Phoenix is just a name for the force of Creation (with the capital C).The original idea was that when Jean Grey died on the shuttle for an instant her mind came in touch with all of creation:all of life (telepathy) all matter and energy (telekinesis).She was then able to reform herself as Phoenix,and became an avatar,or incarnation (very much in the sense in which Jesus Christ is an incarnation of God),of the primal force of Creation,which flows through everything that islanets,stars,matter,energy,time,space.
Before the retcon phoenix was not the name of the force,but only the symbol of the rebirth of the human into the divine.Notice how many times Claremont uses the term "creation" "primal force of creation" when he describes the phoenix,from the very beginning in xmen 101,when Jean says in her delirium when the x-men bring her to the hospital that the planets,the stars,all of creation is a part of her.Through her this force of creation could act in our plane of existence,and save the universe/multiverse repairing the M'Krann Crystal,which holds all of reality together.
In Morrison version the Phoenix avatars exist outside time and space
in the White Hot Room,they tend to the various broken universes when need be they get incarnated into them to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.In the kabalistic symbology that Claremont first used the Phoenix is a symbol of the incarnation of God in the mortal plane,and the Crown is the highest form of God
conceivable and the origin of everything:Presence and Source are synonims of the Crown,all three are names of the same aspect of God.

That was really gd. I tried to say a similar thing in a cosmic battles thread a few wks bk but it wasnt nearly as coherent or well worded as this. Thanx for that. Your post sent KG packing.

but the Phoenix Force doesn't exist in the DC universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That was really gd. I tried to say a similar thing in a cosmic battles thread a few wks bk but it wasnt nearly as coherent or well worded as this. Thanx for that. Your post sent KG packing.
sent me packing?

How do we know that vandal?Originally posted by Superherovandal
but the Phoenix Force doesn't exist in the DC universe.

Originally posted by kgkg
sent me packing?

Precisely that.

how do we know that it does? huh?

Originally posted by Superherovandal
how do we know that it does? huh?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Precisely that.
ya that post showed

Phoenix Force > LT

and Phoenix Force > Eternity ?


lol

hahahaha so until they tell us that it does exist in DC we have to just think it exists in Marvel

In X-Men and New Teen Titans (written by Claremont) Darkseid evocated Dark Phoenix.The Phoenix manifestation comes from the Source and returns into the Source in the end.Which is exactly what Claremont intended also in the normal MU:the phoenix as an aspect of the force of creation.Anyway,phoenix is just a symbol:in other universes the manifestation may be different and have different forms.Plus the original idea was that this force generally remains non-sentient:it took Jean "reaching out" to provide the opportunity to incarnate in normal space and time.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
but the Phoenix Force doesn't exist in the DC universe.

And Krona doesn't exist in Marvel universe. Hence, the reason for crossovers and Comic Book 'Versus' Forums.

no what I mean is about the ominversal power thing.

Originally posted by kgkg
ya that post showed

Phoenix Force > LT

and Phoenix Force > Eternity ?


lol

Oh KG . Ever since i schooled you about Galactus' true place in the hierarchy you've seemed to hav sumthin against the Phoenix. Makolins post was just informing people of the writers original idea for the Phoenix. An idea that has been reverted back to very recently. I have no doubt that the Phoenix is beyond Eternity. I hav already told you that it embodies both Eternity and Death as is stated in Xmen Forever. Did u manage to read all of those comic books like i told you to?

And yes Dark Phoenix > Krona

Thats a gd boy!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh KG . Ever since i schooled you about Galactus' true place in the hierarchy you've seemed to hav sumthin against the Phoenix. Makolins post was just informing people of the writers original idea for the Phoenix. An idea that has been reverted back to very recently. I have no doubt that the Phoenix is beyond Eternity. I hav already told you that it embodies both Eternity and Death as is stated in Xmen Forever. Did u manage to read all of those comic books like i told you to?
lol Galactus?

Yes I did some reading about Phoenix and guess what

She (phoenix) has battle Galactus when he was weak (twice).

And they were pretty much equal(phoenix did stop him twice).


Ideas and what actually happens in comics are two different things.

Darkeid is supposed to be equal to Galactus in power is he? Hell no

Ok GalacticStorm where does it say Phoenix force > Eternity

And Galactus is not Eternity

DC has hypertime Originally posted by Superherovandal
no what I mean is about the ominversal power thing.

Originally posted by kgkg
lol Galactus?

Yes I did some reading about Phoenix and guess what

She (phoenix) has battle Galactus when he was weak (twice).

And they were pretty much equal(phoenix did stop him twice).


Ideas and what actually happens in comics are two different things.

Darkeid is supposed to be equal to Galactus in power is he? Hell no

Ok GalacticStorm where does it say Phoenix force > Eternity

And Galactus is not Eternity

KG why do u do this to yourself. The outcomes always the same and in my mind never in doubt.

*sigh* Here we go:


"Look around you.Gaze upon this world you sought to save-Dead now.Victim to the titanic forces we unleashed.And I hover near death,my strength depleted-exhausted in our struggle...while you are neither weary nor hungry,because you tap into a source of near limitless potential"

Galactus may have been weak on ONE of the occassions that they fought but even if he had just consumed a planets worth of energy in a battle with Phoenix he would still exhaust that and she would still be going strong.

The previous time they fought it was Rachel in control, the weaker of the two Grey clan avatars by far and she still bested him.

Im sorry since when is Darkseid supposed to be on Galactus' level? Who said that? Its quite evident that he is not if superman can whup him.

Where does it say that Phoenix is greater i hear you ask? Well as it stands eternity is the embodiment of a single universe the stars and planets blah blah blah.

If you reread the original idea behind so eloquently depicted by Markolin on this thread, an idea Marvel has reverted to recently you will see why Phoenix is greater.

Wow. Kgkg does an excellent job at proving his point.

I think we're going a bit far saying that the Phoenix Force is equal to the Living Tribunal. She's probably above Galactus, but certainly lower than the Infinity Gauntlet. She's likely on par with infinity, as we first assumed.

"Near Limitless power = Phoenix
Limitless power = Eternity, Infinity"

Well thats incorrect isnt it KG. The Infinity Gems are greater than Eternity or Infinity yet even they are humbled by LT. Limitless just like invulnerable is just a term thrown around in comics as you well know so you of all people should know better than to take it literally.

As it stands the idea behind the Phoenix was that it was an incarnation of the primal force of creation. That is why the Watcher deemed it a force second only to the Creator itself. That got retconned but now its been reverted back to. Eternity and Infinity and the LT all existed then. I wasnt sure myself until Markolin pointed that out. I'll check on the directory which should state their 1st appearances. However the Phoenix is one with all life in existence, not just the universe, that is common knowledge. It is clearly greater than the likes of eternity.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I think we're going a bit far saying that the Phoenix Force is equal to the Living Tribunal. She's probably above Galactus, but certainly lower than the Infinity Gauntlet. She's likely on par with infinity, as we first assumed.

I think its definitely above Galactus. But yeah, I dont think its above the Living Tribunal or such. Shes on par with eternity.

I really dont get what is so hard to understand. The Phoenix originally was an incarnation of the Creator in our plane of existence. By burning up on that space shuttle Jean Grey became one with everything in existence, not just the universe (even thats telling you its beyond Eternity already.) Which allowed the Creator to act within our plane of existence. Just like DC has different incarnations of their god. Such as The Word, The Source and so on the Phoenix represented rebirth it is a transitionary force that embodies life and death. It is the spark of life that resides within all living things and its is the chaos bringer that ends all that is. Avatars are chosen to do the work of the creator because it exists outside our realm of existence. Jean Grey becoming one with everything allowed it to funnel down through her into ours so that Phoenix was born!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Near Limitless power = Phoenix
Limitless power = Eternity, Infinity"

Well thats incorrect isnt it KG. The Infinity Gems are greater than Eternity or Infinity yet even they are humbled by LT. Limitless just like invulnerable is just a term thrown around in comics as you well know so you of all people should know better than to take it literally.

As it stands the idea behind the Phoenix was that it was an incarnation of the primal force of creation. That is why the Watcher deemed it a force second only to the Creator itself. That got retconned but now its been reverted back to. Eternity and Infinity and the LT all existed then. I wasnt sure myself until Markolin pointed that out. I'll check on the directory which should state their 1st appearances. However the Phoenix is one with all life in existence, not just the universe, that is common knowledge. It is clearly greater than the likes of eternity.
Again you miss what i'm trying to say.

You just posted something about almost limitless power.

Infinity, Eternity, Celestials all have infinite power.

There are power ranking between the Infinites. (Marvel even did a comic about infinite power its meaning etc)

Now you just showed me Phoenix has almost limitless power.

LT (limitless power) > IG (limitless power) > Infinity (limitless power) all have limitless power.

And where does the watcher say Phoenix is Second only to God.

What issue?

I said Phoenix force is not greater than Eternity. I am not even arguing if eternity is > Phoenix force you are the one that started to attack.

you even showed me a quote saying phoenix force has a limit  good job.

According to you PF > LT

This then get retconned and then you got all the various stories of the origin of the Phoenix and its connection with Feron and blah blah blah. This has been pushed to the side and now Marvel has gone back to the original idea. That is fact. Its not in debate. The Phoenix Force itself is just a representation of the creator in our plane of existence

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This then get retconned and then you got all the various stories of the origin of the Phoenix and its connection with Feron and blah blah blah. This has been pushed to the side and now Marvel has gone back to the original idea. That is fact. Its not in debate. The Phoenix Force itself is just a representation of the creator in our plane of existence
so they changed the idea and made Phoenix > LT?

is that what you are saying?

I don't know anything about retconned, i don't even read X-men

so what issue did they retconned Phoenix and made it > LT?

Check out Uncanny Xmen 137 where the watcher says that Jean is one with a force second only to that of the creator. Please understand this KG. You seem to have the original 1986 retcon too firmly placed in your head which is such a shame. That retcon has been scrapped!! Marvel are now going along with their original idea that the Phoenix Force is an incarnation of the creator in our plane of existence.

The Phoenix avatars are needed as doctors of the universe to carry out the creators work within our plane of existence. See the Phoenix as a representation not a cosmic being as the 86 retcon made it to be. That retcon has been the idea being pushed forward by marvels writers for most of the amount of time the phoenix entity has even existed in their comics, so the retcons ideas are so firmly placed in the minds of many comic readers. Forget alllll about it. The original idea has been reverted to.

Nice new sig Kg

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Nice new sig Kg

I like the new sig by the way. Who made it 4 u?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like the new sig by the way. Who made it 4 u?
i made it lol i like making sig

I'll be your best friend if you make me a Phoenix one

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'll be your best friend if you make me a Phoenix one
it takes me hmm like 10 mins , i can make you one.

But i don't have any Phoenix pictures.

Uncanny xmen 137 is before the retcon. If you pick up Essential Xmen vol 1 and 2 you will get the whole picture about the Phoenix right from the beginning. Its worth it. Then in 86 in a FF comic i believe Jean Grey was discovered and the retcon began in earnest. Making out that dark phoenix wasnt Jean but it was the phoenix force taking on Jeans form gone mad. Its so confusing. I could copy and paste this argument i put on a previous thread which explains everything if u want? It will take you 5 mins to read but all your questions will be answered

Pheonix is not higher then Eternity and Death is not either Death has been pushed around by the In-betweener who is not as powerful as Lord Chaos and Master Order also She always usually has someone else do Her job She has also been beaten by the Grandmaster thus the Elders Of The Universe are banned from Deaths realm, also the PF has been defeated as well by The unreconned Beyonder as well as the Goblin Force for those of you who will say the original Beyonder dont count the Goblin Force drained Galactus then ate the power of the PH but was stopped only by The Celestials in Mutant X She has also been stopped by Set in a What If oh and What If's should count they are part of other realties that do exist some of those realities have interacted with this one and Goblin Force was not a What If.

Originally posted by Mider
Pheonix is not higher then Eternity and Death is not either Death has been pushed around by the In-betweener who is not as powerful as Lord Chaos and Master Order also She always usually has someone else do Her job She has also been beaten by the Grandmaster thus the Elders Of The Universe are banned from Deaths realm, also the PF has been defeated as well by The unreconned Beyonder as well as the Goblin Force for those of you who will say the original Beyonder dont count the Goblin Force drained Galactus then ate the power of the PH but was stopped only by The Celestials in Mutant X She has also been stopped by Set in a What If oh and What If's should count they are part of other realties that do exist some of those realities have interacted with this one and Goblin Force was not a What If.

Mider i dont mean to be rude but after arguing on this thread for hours and getting somewhere, only to hav some1 who obviously hasnt read the thread to come on post garbage that is made redundant by many peoples posts on this thread its understandable if i hav little patience. Im not going to counter what you said cos anyone can see why your post hasnt changed anything by reading the thread. I suggest you do the same and see how silly you can make yourself look by contributing to a thread b4 reading previous posts

mider...for the love of god use punctuation.

To KgKg:The image you posted comes from what if 14,and its not very good for stating your case.Jean had been lobotomized by the sh'iar,and lost his power.Much later the x-men were called by the Sh'iar to help them,and suddenly Jean re-transformed into Phoenix. Galactus was weak,but this is also true for the phoenix.In the original saga her power grew exponentially with time,and she had just transformed.Yet she made Galactus flee.Later she became Dark Phoenix,and,after killing Cyclops,her human part was completely overwhelmed by the firebird,which expanded out of control and consumed the entire Universe in the last panel of the story.
The first time Galactus fought Rachel-Phoenix he was not weak at all.He went to earth to wrestle the phoenix from her,he was well prepared and much much taller than usual,so big that the excalibur lighthouse seemed a small miniature in comparison(and generally his size is an indicator of his power level) while Rachel was acceding only a small fraction of the power of the Phoenix (she didnt really draw on the Phoenix until the battle with Necrom).
Later yes,Galactus was weak,but was also totally outclassed.If you look at the comic you see that his shots have no effect whatsoever:they dont even move Phoenix,while he is in tatters,with energy leaking from his armour.
In X-Men Forever 3 Death shows Jean the Abstracts and says that they were afraid of her,because when she became Phoenix she was a legitimate threat for the fabric of reality.In x-men forever 6 Eternity itself said that the Phoenix is the Force of Resurrection,that will allow a new universe to be born when this one dies.He said that cyclically the universe is destroyed and reborn through the phoenix,and in the next Universe there will be new incarnations of the abstracts.In fact the Stranger wanted to make Jean access the Phoenix Force in order the collapse reality and become the supreme being of the next universe.
In Excalibur 25 Death says that the Phoenix is the first spark that ignited creation and the fire that will one day consume it,a destruction which will clean the table for a new creation.Later in Excalibur Necrom wanted to take the power of the Phoenix to rule the multiverse;and it was revealed that Merlin created the Otherworld energy matrix , and anchored a version of the Excalibur Lighthouse across all realities thanks to the energy of the Phoenix (so the Phoenix is a multiversal force,while Eternity is only the incarnation of the 616 Universe).
And it should not be forgotten that the phoenix is tied to the M'Krann Crystal,which,as explained in the Age of Apocalypse,has the power to istantly reboot the Multiverse.The very reason why the AoA timeline should have been cancelled was that without Jean/phoenix noone would have repaired the Crystal and it would have destroyed every reality in existence.While the new AoA doesnt explains the details,it pretty much says that is Jean that allowed that reality to continue to exist.During the original Secret Wars Crossovers the Beyonder noticed Rachel and sad that it was the only being in the Universe with the potential to be his equal:he gave her part of his power and played with her.In the end he took his power back,but he realized that what came back was much more than what he originally gave her:the comic says that he's unable to stop her,and that he experienced much more than what could have ever imagined or could possibly whitstand :the totality of life in all its forms and its glory. In Uxm 203 the Beyonder,which at the time (pre-Retcon) was toying with the big powers of the Marvel Universe,falls to the ground in shock.
There are plenty of instances in x-men related comics in which the phoenix is described at this level of power.
Anyway,when Jean/Phoenix is first seen in the White Hot Room in classic x-men 43 she sees a tiny pinprick of light looks closer and discovers it is the Universe.She then talks with Death,who is building a skyscraper with room for every civilization's idea of the afterlife:every hell,heaven or death realm is contained in it.Death says that she's an avatar of the Phoenix and exists outside the building.Later in NxM 154 Morrison has Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown reform and hold an Universe in her hands,while another Phoenix says that he would have just let that Universe die.
The White Hot Room is also called an hospital for "baby universes" and "broken universes".
At least in the WHR the phoenix avatars seem much above the single universes:and the avatars are only aspects of the force.

To Mider:an avatar can be defeated or killed (only to resurrect later on,as good phoenixes do) expecially when he has accomplished its main task.Jean was killed by Magneto in Nxm 150.But the force itself cannot.
When Jean had to repair the M'Krann Crystal she became much more powerful than before,because it was needed;later her power decreased.Even Dark Phoenix said that her power was nothing compared to what she had when she repaired the M'Krann Crystal.
Anyway,the "force" can act in our universe only through avatars,and all the phoenix manifestations we have seen are now,after Endsong,explained as only shards of the original phoenix "created" by Jean Grey.

I've read all the posts so far...I still would never put PF > LT but I'm starting to read some of the new X-Men stuff, and also listened to everything on this thread, and I'd have it HOTU, LT, IG, PF, Abstracts/Galactus, etc. I'd possibly put PF above IG, but that's it. I've actually thought of PF as being above Galactus for a while now...this just confirms it.

Some interesting discussion...can't add anything to it (haven't read enough) but it was fun to read.

-DM

GalacticStorm i understand you like the character but i wasnt making up my post what i put was all facts im sorry that you dont like those facts but thats just the way it is Pheonix has been defeated before by entities lower then Eternity so what do you want me to do about it lie? And i didnt put any garbage thanks

*clapping* markolin, I'm in awe. Way too much to read, but it was worth it.

markolin's post firms my theory that in purpose and power, jean grey and spectre are the same being of the different universes.

which would make the phoenix force the presence.

(note: i realize that my above theory is a leap, and i'm not trying to use it as an argument or stating it as true. it's just what i think)

Impressive.

sounds silly to me. Presense is way more powerful than PF. Spectre full power is more powerful than PF

The PF is not The Presance how does that work The Presance takes a holiday just to be the PF in the MU from the DCU because from what i remeber The Preasance is in action in the DCU.

use your brain, mider. i'm speaking equivalents here. i don't mean that PF and presence are the same being, i mean they represent the same function and power level in the respective multiverses.

but that depends on if you consider the presence to be yahweh, or just another aspect of yahweh.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'll be your best friend if you make me a Phoenix one
ait GalacticStorm lol I was bored so I made you a Sig.

nice kgkg

Thanx KG!! I luv it. If i was a woman id hav your babies

Originally posted by Mider
Pheonix is not higher then Eternity and Death is not either Death has been pushed around by the In-betweener who is not as powerful as Lord Chaos and Master Order also She always usually has someone else do Her job She has also been beaten by the Grandmaster thus the Elders Of The Universe are banned from Deaths realm, also the PF has been defeated as well by The unreconned Beyonder as well as the Goblin Force for those of you who will say the original Beyonder dont count the Goblin Force drained Galactus then ate the power of the PH but was stopped only by The Celestials in Mutant X She has also been stopped by Set in a What If oh and What If's should count they are part of other realties that do exist some of those realities have interacted with this one and Goblin Force was not a What If.

This is one sentence.

ah-hahahaha...eh-hah..eh...eh...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


sure it was a what-if...what if the goblin force was existant and uberly powerful?

Yep, Set drained the Phoenix Force from Rachel in that What if, but she managed to destroy one of the serpent heads before she died.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanx KG!! I luv it. If i was a woman id hav your babies

And suddenly this thread is ruined for me...

-DM

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Yep, Set drained the Phoenix Force from Rachel in that What if, but she managed to destroy one of the serpent heads before she died.

But, Racheal isn't Dark Phoenix, and she isn't more powerful than her mother is.

The Goblin Force came out in Mutant X It drained BOTh Galactus and PF. Krona would have a pretty good chance of defeating the PF.

Mutant X is an alternate reality right? The Phoenix force is an omniversal force present across all marvels universes, realities etc. If the goblin Force consumed the Phoenix Force itself then why is Jean still operating as an avatar in 616? Maybe the goblin force consumed a fragment of the force but obviously not the totality.

Also what you forget is that the original phoenix force is a representation of the Creator(TOAA) in our plane of existence.

In 86 the phoenix got retconned into just a powerful force that was made up of the psyches of all living beings. Still powerful but nothing compared to how it was initially.

The retcon has been scrapped within the last 2 years. The phoenix is back to being a representation of TOAA.

and were did you get this invo cosmicstorm that the PF is a representation of TOAA and that its omniversal.

wow...you definetly haven't been reading any of this thread. at all.

Mider. Read the thread like you should hav done before you first posted and all your questions will be answered. After you've done that come back to me and apologise for wasting my time.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mider. Read the thread like you should hav done before you first posted and all your questions will be answered. After you've done that come back to me and apologise for wasting my time.
Why is the sig like that. (bad quality)

ok people my friend gave me few scans i think i will post it for you guys to read.

scan 1

part 2 ( remember that man is death)

eternity talking to P

part 2

GalacticStorm im just stating what i think stop getting all pissy cause its annoying i dont owe you an apology and its been said all through this thread the PF was redone into a weaker character just like the Beyonder and belive me all the threads ive seen about the Beyonder argue about His reconned power and Him not being so powerful so guess what now that the PF has been reconned She is not as powerful and cant do what you say It can It has to work through avatars just to function.

Originally posted by Mider
GalacticStorm im just stating what i think stop getting all pissy cause its annoying i dont owe you an apology and its been said all through this thread the PF was redone into a weaker character just like the Beyonder and belive me all the threads ive seen about the Beyonder argue about His reconned power and Him not being so powerful so guess what now that the PF has been reconned She is not as powerful and cant do what you say It can It has to work through avatars just to function.

U silly boy. U still havent read it all hav u? Either that or youre just not taking it in. The phoenix was originally a representation of TOAA, that got retconned in 86 to it just being a powerful force, it has now reverted back in the comics to what it was. So what the hell are you going about?

kgkg what comic are your scans from?

GalacticStorm you are one stuck up dude.

Originally posted by kgkg
Why is the sig like that. (bad quality)

The files original size is 196KB and you're only allowed a sig of 30 KB on this forum apparently. So i had to reduce the quality in Photoshop to get it on. But i dont understand how other peoples sigs still look such a decent quality.

I still hav the original unaltered so if you know something i dont giv us a shout

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The files original size is 196KB and you're only allowed a sig of 30 KB on this forum apparently. So i had to reduce the quality in Photoshop to get it on. But i dont understand how other peoples sigs still look such a decent quality.

I still hav the original unaltered so if you know something i dont giv us a shout
what ok

here this one is 21.7 KB

kgkg what comic was your scans from?????????????

Originally posted by Mider
kgkg what comic are your scans from?
Excalibur 25- ( where Galactus trys to (eat) Pho)
X-men Forever 6 - Where Eternity talks to Pho

I haven't read any of them my friend gave me scans

So basically back to its old power level?

Originally posted by Mider
So basically back to its old power level?
I have no idea.

I didn't know there were different Phoenix (like beyonder)

Eternity talking to Pho seems pretty recent

Yeah that is recent. That scan you have is from Xmen forever. Thats within the last 3 years if i remember correctly . Its also the comic where both iceman, toad and mystique get power upgrades. Plus Juggy realises he's wasted his life and becomes good.

Thanx so much for the sig KG. Even that second pic you sent was way too large. Ive just spent the last 45 mins in Photoshop trying to reduce the file size while retaining as much quality as possible. It looks gd thanx alot

LT>PF
Eternity=PF

kgkg=TOAA

guys answer the question, who will win DP or Korna

in case you hadn't gathered, most people say DP

Originally posted by Xplosive
LT>PF
Eternity=PF

kgkg=TOAA

Xplosive I find your answer so hard to comprehend after all the debating whats gone on in the thread. Dont you get it? The Phoenix Force is an incarnation of the TOAA. That was the original idea behind it. An idea that has now been reverted back to as shown in Grant Morrisons run of New Xmen and EndSong. Its in the comics, its always been there. All we've done in this thread is present it to people who maybe dont read Xmen. Theres plenty of refernces in this thread if you want to check up on it yourself.

Have you not read Markolins bit about the Secret Wars2? Obviously not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Xplosive I find your answer so hard to comprehend after all the debating whats gone on in the thread. Dont you get it? The Phoenix Force is an incarnation of the TOAA. That was the original idea behind it. An idea that has now been reverted back to as shown in Grant Morrisons run of New Xmen and EndSong. Its in the comics, its always been there. All we've done in this thread is present it to people who maybe dont read Xmen. Theres plenty of refernces in this thread if you want to check up on it yourself.

Have you not read Markolins bit about the Secret Wars2? Obviously not.


No, incarnatiom of TOAA=kgkg. GalacticStorm, you know damn very well that TOAA=inifnetely more than PF, and you realize damn well that LT=if he wanted he wuoud put PF out of existence. Original idea was PF is second to creator and not incarnation of TOAA.
Obviously yes.

Originally posted by Xplosive

No, incarnatiom of TOAA=kgkg. GalacticStorm, you know damn very well that TOAA=inifnetely more than PF, and you realize damn well that LT=if he wanted he wuoud put PF out of existence. Original idea was PF is second to creator and not incarnation of TOAA.
Obviously yes.

You are so dense its unbelievable. You couldnt hav read the thread to be posting the crap you hav. The Phoenix Force is an incarnation of the TOAA in our plane of existence. It took this form when jean burned up on the shuttle and became one with everything. This event allowed TOAA to funnel down into our plane of existence through Jean, therefore creating Phoenix which was simply a representation of the Creator in our existence thats it. It wasnt until the retcon in 86 that the Phoenix became some separate cosmic entity that was made sentient by Feron and blah blah blah.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You are so dense its unbelievable. You couldnt hav read the thread to be posting the crap you hav. The Phoenix Force is an incarnation of the TOAA in our plane of existence. It took this form when jean burned up on the shuttle and became one with everything. This event allowed TOAA to funnel down into our plane of existence through Jean, therefore creating Phoenix which was simply a representation of the Creator in our existence thats it. It wasnt until the retcon in 86 that the Phoenix became some separate cosmic entity that was made sentient by Feron and blah blah blah.

Sorry than, I haven't read the thread, I thought you meant,...it doesn't matter, when I saw TOAA=PF, I immedaitely though, what are you thinink, sorry.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/customsig_61538_zy.gif

bump. Here u go Beyonder just 4 u. Please read this thread before youpost anymore nonsense

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why would you say that KG? The watcher says the Phoenix's power is second only to that of the Creator

The Watcher says alot of things. Such as not interfering. And we all know he would never break his oath.

Heck, the punk also regard Apocalypse as a threat, worthy to talk to the Watcher.

Originally posted by Beyonder
The Watcher says alot of things. Such as not interfering. And we all know he would never break his oath.

Heck, the punk also regard Apocalypse as a threat, worthy to talk to the Watcher.

Just read this post and zip it. It explains most of what you need to know in a good way:

Actually both Eternity and the Living Tribunal already existed by a good decade.And Claremont knew both,since he wrote issues of Dr.Strange with Eternity and was supervisor for many comics at marvel at the time (and anyway this is not an excuse for the Watcher,which couldnt possibly have not known them even if they were invented later).The real problem is whether Claremont or Morrison are acknowledged by the rest of the Marvel Universe,because in their interpretation the Phoenix is just a name for the force of Creation (with the capital C).The original idea was that when Jean Grey died on the shuttle for an instant her mind came in touch with all of creation:all of life (telepathy) all matter and energy (telekinesis).She was then able to reform herself as Phoenix,and became an avatar,or incarnation (very much in the sense in which Jesus Christ is an incarnation of God),of the primal force of Creation,which flows through everything that islanets,stars,matter,energy,time,space.
Before the retcon phoenix was not the name of the force,but only the symbol of the rebirth of the human into the divine.Notice how many times Claremont uses the term "creation" "primal force of creation" when he describes the phoenix,from the very beginning in xmen 101,when Jean says in her delirium when the x-men bring her to the hospital that the planets,the stars,all of creation is a part of her.Through her this force of creation could act in our plane of existence,and save the universe/multiverse repairing the M'Krann Crystal,which holds all of reality together.
In Morrison version the Phoenix avatars exist outside time and space
in the White Hot Room,they tend to the various broken universes when need be they get incarnated into them to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.In the kabalistic symbology that Claremont first used the Phoenix is a symbol of the incarnation of God in the mortal plane,and the Crown is the highest form of God
conceivable and the origin of everything:Presence and Source are synonims of the Crown,all three are names of the same aspect of God.

kRoNa WiNs

U would say that 11. Krona is nothing compared to the Phoenix of the White Crown. Jean would utterly destroy him. Heres Markolins post from another thread which gives a good insight into the scale of Jeans power and her role in the multiverse:


"Even the Beyonder thought that noone could challenge his powers.
Thanos defeated Akhenaton,but Akhenaton had gained the HOTU from a different timeline.Tom Breevort has said that The End happened in an alternate reality.This is marvel's stance.This means that Thanos did not control the Multiverse,but only an alternate reality.Maybe there are other realities in which Akhenaton won,and other in which Doom succeded.Anyway to have power over the MUltiverse you must beabove it,not a part of it.When you introduce alternate realities you destroy the idea of power over the multiverse.
Thanos could probably overpower the LT because there are limits to the power the LT can employ in a single universe,as shown by what ifs or alternate realities in which he could not easily beat universal threats.
Furthermore,the LT uses M-bodies to manifest,and so do the other abstracts.They cannot manifest directly,and probably there is a limit to the power they can manifest through the m-bodies.

The Phoenix Force needs avatars to act because it exists on a higher plane of reality,just like the true Beyonders that can interact with our reality only through cosmic cubes.Did you see the True Beyonders in the End?Their universe was affected or not? Quite simply,they cannot be contained in the normal universe.
It would be like a human being trying to interact directly with bacteria or subatomic particles.In Nxm 154 Jean reformed the Universe and held it in her hands.And she was but one of countless phoenix avatars seen in the WHR,following the orders from the "voice" which was probably meant to represent God.
In the White Hot Room single Universes are seen as flickering points of light. In Morrison interpretation the phoenixes get incarnated to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.When there is need of a "human viewpoint" for precision work.The M'Krann Crystal,if not repaired,would have destroyed all of reality:so jean had to become Phoenix.Thanos ultimately returned everything to the status quo in which it was before;so there was no need to intervene.The voice/consciousness and the phoenixes exist outside normal spacetime,and can see everything from beginning to End.Therefore they know when a crisis will resolve itself or not."

Krona created the antimatter universe. He was the greatest member of the first sentient beings in the universe. He merged with entropy and was spread out throughout the universe.

Yet creating or destroying a universe is nothing to a phoenix avatar. Jean as phoenix of the white crown telekinetically reformed a universe and rewound its timeline to get rid of a possible future. This was done on a whim. This happened in New Xmen at the end of the 'Here Comes Tomorrow ' story arc

The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities. Despite Jean contained this effect and reenergised the energy matrix which held the neutron galaxy in place. She basically held together existence as it was coming apart at the seams. That is one of the highest feats ever achieved by any being in Marvel Comics.

Phoenix was also the being responsible for linking all the alternate realities and universes in the multiverse together. It projected a doorway through each every different reality.

Krona pales in comparison to what jean as the phoenix of the white crown can do. Sorry guys.