The Living Tribunal Vs. The Phoenix Force

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Beyonder
A cosmic battle, no holds bar between LT and the Phoenix Force.

Which being takes this?

FieryBalrog
these cosmic battles are really boring. Both of them can't die, are immortal, are basic fundamental forces/entities of the multiverse, and can't "lose" in a meaningful sense.

kevdude
hmmmm wow this is pretty tuff i would probably say The Living Tribunal for now but ima wait and see what some others say about this later and then come back and decide big grin

Beyonder
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
these cosmic battles are really boring. Both of them can't die, are immortal, are basic fundamental forces/entities of the multiverse, and can't "lose" in a meaningful sense.

It doesn't mean there can't be a winner.

long pig
Yes, it actually does mean there can't be a winner.

Both forces are basically controlled by TOAA, he wouldn't allow them to fight.
If they did fight, they'd not be serving their purpose....therefore they both cease to exist.

FieryBalrog
Its just a heirarchy question. What kind of battle would it be? one that is incomprehensible. You cant devise scenarios like "well spiderman would sling his web and throw sabertooth around" or "wolverine would slice through catwoman like a knife through hot butter". Its just a question of "well the LT is 2nd in rank and PF is say... 5th so LT wins!"

Draco69
Exactly. I HATE cosmic battles. So boring. We can only base on who is gonna "win" by hierarchy as FieryBalrog said. He/She is the ONLY one who had the stones to admit it in my opinion.

As for this battle I don't know.

Beyonder
Originally posted by Draco69
Exactly. I HATE cosmic battles. So boring. We can only base on who is gonna "win" by hierarchy as FieryBalrog said. He/She is the ONLY one who had the stones to admit it in my opinion.

Then why don't we? Either there's a winner or one's more powerful than the other. wink

Lord S
LT cages the Phoenix like a canary and bitchslaps her to destruction...or shuts the universe down on her.

Pick one.

Xplosive
PF>LT

kgkg
Originally posted by Xplosive
PF>LT
how can you say that?

Thanos with HOTU (God's power) said that LT is highest in the food chain

markolin
As I said elsewhere,the Phoenix is not a being,is a force.It can only act through avatars.I think that at the highest level (white phoenix of the crown) an avatar is probably behind the LT,but nearly there.The force as a whole may be more "powerful" but ultimately,LT has been appointed ruler of the Multiverse,while whitout the PF there wouldnt be a Multiverse at all,so it has not much sense putting them against each other.
As for the HOTU,it has been said by Marvel that it happened in an alternate reality.Thanos referred to the End in his series,so its possible that it also happened in the normal MU with some differences.Anyway,the very fact that the power of God is split in several different realities (and if I rememeber correctly Thanos fought Akhenaton-both had conquered the HotU in different timelines) should be very SUSPECT.

kgkg

markolin
The HOTU is going the same road of the Beyonder and the Infinity Gauntlet.Both the LT and the Phoenix Force exist outside the Multiverse.The avatars get incarnated by jumping back in the Universe below.The fact that in a timeline Thanos has the HOTU,another one Akhenaton has it,another one Thanos but maybe
the story has gone a bit differently,another one maybe Dr.Doom succeded in obtaining it,means that the HOTU has been pretty much scaled down to giving absolute power on a single universe.Just like the Infinity Gauntlet,which started out giving absolute power of reality,time and space and now has been retconned into giving power only over a single Universe (so only a particular spacetime and a single reality,not all the countless alternate realities/spacetimes).If you're God only in a particular timeline you're not really God at all.

The fact of having to use avatars does not necessarily mean that the PF is inferior. Stands to reason that multiversal beings cannot fully manifest into a single Universe.Lt uses M-bodies to manifest itself.And the Lt has not been shown so overpowering on single Multiverses.Ereshkigal with the Starbrand stalemated him.He decided not to confront Korvac when he conquered an alternate universe,but merely sealed it from contact with the rest of the Multiverse.In the GOTG timeline the Protege copied his power,and so on.It has never been shown omnipotent.

So?
My point?
AS I said,a White Phoenix of the Crown is probably below the LT,but above anything else,since Jean as White Phoenix held a Universe in her hand.
The Phoenix Force itself cannot fight,but cannot be beaten.

kgkg

Beyonder

Xplosive
Originally posted by kgkg
how can you say that?

Thanos with HOTU (God's power) said that LT is highest in the food chain

PF is incarantion of TOAA, so yes PF>LT.

Lord S
What? Who told you that?

Xplosive
Originally posted by Lord S
What? Who told you that?

Recent comic books.

Lord S
Can you provide some details?

markolin
Even the Beyonder thought that noone could challenge his powers.
Thanos defeated Akhenaton,but Akhenaton had gained the HOTU from a different timeline.Tom Breevort has said that The End happened in an alternate reality.This is marvel's stance.This means that Thanos did not control the Multiverse,but only an alternate reality.Maybe there are other realities in which Akhenaton won,and other in which Doom succeded.Anyway to have power over the MUltiverse you must beabove it,not a part of it.When you introduce alternate realities you destroy the idea of power over the multiverse.
Thanos could probably overpower the LT because there are limits to the power the LT can employ in a single universe,as shown by what ifs or alternate realities in which he could not easily beat universal threats.
Furthermore,the LT uses M-bodies to manifest,and so do the other abstracts.They cannot manifest directly,and probably there is a limit to the power they can manifest through the m-bodies.

The Phoenix Force needs avatars to act because it exists on a higher plane of reality,just like the true Beyonders that can interact with our reality only through cosmic cubes.Did you see the True Beyonders in the End?Their universe was affected or not? Quite simply,they cannot be contained in the normal universe.
It would be like a human being trying to interact directly with bacteria or subatomic particles.In Nxm 154 Jean reformed the Universe and held it in her hands.And she was but one of countless phoenix avatars seen in the WHR,following the orders from the "voice" which was probably meant to represent God.
In the White Hot Room single Universes are seen as flickering points of light. In Morrison interpretation the phoenixes get incarnated to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.When there is need of a "human viewpoint" for precision work.The M'Krann Crystal,if not repaired,would have destroyed all of reality:so jean had to become Phoenix.Thanos ultimately returned everything to the status quo in which it was before;so there was no need to intervene.The voice/consciousness and the phoenixes exist outside normal spacetime,and can see everything from beginning to End.Therefore they know when a crisis will resolve itself or not.

GalacticStorm
That was a very good post. I was just typing a reply then i read this and scrapped it lol

K3VIL
Thanos was merged with the entire HOTU, Akenathon with only a fraction of his power.

Xplosive
bump

Xplosive
Originally posted by markolin

Thanos could probably overpower the LT because there are limits to the power the LT can employ in a single universe,as shown by what ifs or alternate realities in which he could not easily beat universal threats.


Thanos did overpower LT and frankly he made LT look like mere of insect. Thanos with HOTU could probably destroy all reallity at once, his power was literally limitless (nor Tue Beyonders have such power nor M'Kraan, but LT could also stop M'Krann if he wanted, his pwoers were equal to TOAA). Thanos with HOTU is the greatest power ever shown in Marvel Universe (if we don't count TOAA, but we never really seen TOAA). And LT exist in all realites at once, LT has been called most powerful beign ever in MU, execpt TOAA and Thanos with HOTU. Marvel has made LT most powerful beign and that is it, he exist everywher at any time, exists on every dimension at the same time in each as well as actually existing in every single universe in the multiverse at the same time, in every part of the existence or reality.

Xplosive
I meant Thanos with HOTU pwoers were equal to TOAA.

Anyway, most pwoerful forces in MU ever:
1)TOAA
2)Thanos with HTOU
3)LT

markolin
Yet Marvel has officially stated that the End is meant to be an alternate reality and NOT CANON.So his power was limitless in AN ALTERNATE REALITY,not in the main timeline or the whole Multiverse.They said it explicitly through editorial statement,because they didnt like the way Starlin wrote Thanos yet again at the top of the pile.And all the End stories were always meant to be imaginary stories which are not in continuity.Having power only over an alternate reality does not mean having power over everything.And the LT is multiversal,but manifests in single universes only through M-bodies.
The fact that LT could stop M'Krann is a mere supposition.The Lt couldnt beat Korvac in a what if and had to seal that Universe away,and couldnt just blink the starbrand out of existence-he said that the power of the Starbrand was equal to his.The Starbrand originates from another Multiverse,and also the Beyonders were said to come from another Multiverse,even if this has maybe been retconned.And the White Hot Room is outside the Multiverse,or rather,contains it.

As for the HOTU,an artifact that can give the power of God just happens to go unnoticed and unchecked until Thanos is ready to put his hands over it? What is power source? Who created it? What its purpose (other than empowering Thanos)? Noone noticed it before or thought to quarantine it?

Ultimately for me the point is that when I read Claremont and Morrison I see well-thought stories,with a rich symbology and logically coherent.
When I read Starlin stories I see abstract concepts depicted as one-dimensional buffoons which have no better idea than throwing planets at Thanos or making supernovas explode,and a lot of plotholes.
Morrison idea that the phoenixes exist ouside normal spacetime and can select the precise moment in which incarnate in order to carry their tasks makes sense.
The idea that the HOTU is allowed by to stay uncheked while the LT sleeps the sleep of the just until Thanos or someone else is ready to grab it makes no sense at all.

Xplosive
Originally posted by markolin
Yet Marvel has officially stated that the End is meant to be an alternate reality and NOT CANON.So his power was limitless in AN ALTERNATE REALITY,not in the main timeline or the whole Multi verse.They said it explicitly through editorial statement,because they didnt like the way Starlin wrote Thanos yet again at the top of the pile.And all the End stories were always meant to be imaginary stories which are not in continuity.Having power only over an alternate reality does not mean having power over everything.And the LT is multiversal,but manifests in single universes only through M-bodies.
The fact that LT could stop M'Krann is a mere supposition.The Lt couldnt beat Korvac in a what if and had to seal that Universe away,and couldnt just blink the starbrand out of existence-he said that the power of the Starbrand was equal to his.The Starbrand originates from another Multi verse,and also the Beyonders were said to come from another Multi verse,even if this has maybe been retconned.And the White Hot Room is outside the Multi verse,or rather,contains it.

As for the HOTU,an artifact that can give the power of God just happens to go unnoticed and unchecked until Thanos is ready to put his hands over it? What is power source? Who created it? What its purpose (other than empowering Thanos)? Noone noticed it before or thought to quarantine it?

Ultimately for me the point is that when I read Claremont and Morrison I see well-thought stories,with a rich symbology and logically coherent.
When I read Starlin stories I see abstract concepts depicted as one-dimensional buffoons which have no better idea than throwing planets at Thanos or making supernovas explode,and a lot of plotholes.
Morrison idea that the phoenixes exist ouside normal spacetime and can select the precise moment in which incarnate in order to carry their tasks makes sense.
The idea that the HOTU is allowed by to stay uncheked while the LT sleeps the sleep of the just until Thanos or someone else is ready to grab it makes no sense at all.

As I understand you, LT exist everywhere only in one Multiverse and not in whole existence or in whole MU.
And I still think Thanos power would be limitless everywhere, no matter what reality, so power over whole existence or whole MU, but he is such lower being for power of God or HOTU that he close doesn't understand, so that is why he never knew about other realities. No being and it doens't matter from which timeline or which Multiverse or Byonder wouldn't be mathc clsoe for Thanos with HOTU or anyone with HOTU. I know it's stupid always empowering Thanos, but still no being in MU, no matter from where or when wouldn't be close able to challenge such power as Thanos possesed with HOTU.

Beyonder
Originally posted by markolin
Thanos ultimately returned everything to the status quo in which it was before;so there was no need to intervene.The voice/consciousness and the phoenixes exist outside normal spacetime,and can see everything from beginning to End.Therefore they know when a crisis will resolve itself or not.

Um okay. Really? Those recent issues stated all that? Or is it just your ASSUMPTION? I thought so. wink

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Beyonder
Um okay. Really? Those recent issues stated all that? Or is it just your ASSUMPTION? I thought so. wink

Well if the avatars are doctors of the multiverse healing and disinfecting as deemed appropriate by the Voice then why didnt they intervene then. Exactly. Where were the Phoenix avatars in the End even though they have the power to create universes on a whim and destroy timelines? Placing them at the top of the Marvel hierarchy. ('Here Comes Tomorrow' story arc) It is well known the White Hot room is outside time and space and that the universes are represented within it as spheres of energy(again in 'Here Comes Tomorrow) from here the phoenixes watch events occurring in the various universes and realities of the multiverse and view the outcomes. That is how the the Voice knows when precisely to send the avatars into the universes below to prevent certain futures and outcomes. Its all in New Xmen B. Happy reading. After you've educated yourself feel free to PM your thank u.

kgkg

kgkg
markolin : here you go read this
she is a entity just like death smile

FieryBalrog
I think the Phoenix is about the same level as eternity or so.

but this stuff is a bit meaningless...

markolin
The phoenix is a force.There is probably also a collective consciousness of the avatars.
The pic you posted was the preview for Endsong 1.Endong seemed to follow the old retcon version.But in Endsong 5 surprise surprise! The tables have turned and the "phoenix force" in Ensong has been explained as just a shard given consciousness by Jean,confirming the retcon of the retcon.
Sorry! big grin
Jean did not just reform the Universe.She held it in her hands.She was outside of it.When the White Hot Room first appeared in Classic X-men it was seen as an extradimensional realm above the realm of death and from which single universes are seen as points of light.

kgkg

kgkg
there you have it

kgkg
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
I think the Phoenix is about the same level as eternity or so.

but this stuff is a bit meaningless...
Yes people are starting to overrate the phoenix

TAOO = Phoenix > LT now that's just stupid

Remade the universe and what I find out she healed it sad next time people give correct info

FieryBalrog
Originally posted by kgkg
Yes people are starting to overrate the phoenix

TAOO = Phoenix > LT now that's just stupid

Remade the universe and what I find out she healed it sad next time people give correct info

what do you think healing is? she cut away 150 years and regrew them. telekinetically controlling all the atoms in the universe.

but in any case, I think LT is definitely above phoenix. But on the same level as eternity, thats not a stretch at all. read x-men forever.

kgkg
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
what do you think healing is? she cut away 150 years and regrew them. telekinetically controlling all the atoms in the universe.

but in any case, I think LT is definitely above phoenix. But on the same level as eternity, thats not a stretch at all. read x-men forever.

Healing and making a universe is two different things.

Some people in other thread said she made a universe.

And you are right.

Eternity/ Death/phoenix force / Infinity are all forces close to each other I see that now.

Cosmic Flame

FieryBalrog
Originally posted by kgkg
Healing and making a universe is two different things.

Some people in other thread said she made a universe.

And you are right.

Eternity/ Death/phoenix force / Infinity are all forces close to each other I see that now.

to be fair, in x-men forever (and I think somewhere else too) it says that the phoenix is the spark responsible for the creation of the cosmos.

confused who knows. Im content with a less explicit, more mystical understanding of the phoenix.

GalacticStorm

Xplosive
Wha is this, PF could created Galactus and those, it's logical, since PF is aspect of TOAA.

Beyonder
Originally posted by Xplosive
Wha is this, PF could created Galactus and those, it's logical, since PF is aspect of TOAA.

Where does it say that the PF is an aspect of TOAA? Again, just an assumption. However, LT is and has been referred to many times by different deities as servant of TOAA.

IRTMU-Dragon
The Mask would just walk in and own everyone.

BTW, Whats this PF shit? Its not an aspect of the one above all, WTF?! The living Tribunal is a servant of TOAA, actually, Beyonder, thats why.

Beyonder
Originally posted by IRTMU-Dragon
The Mask would just walk in and own everyone.

BTW, Whats this PF shit? Its not an aspect of the one above all, WTF?! The living Tribunal is a servant of TOAA, actually, Beyonder, thats why.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=342172&perpage=20&highlight=Krona&pagenumber=2

Scroll down to Markolin's post and read that. For some reason, he assumes PF = aspect of TOAA.

Galactic Storm, bein a Phoenix fan, whole heartedly agrees. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Jason8200
Ok I persoanally think that the Phoenix Force and its avatars are always overrated.

What I gathered from reading the comic that was shown earlier is that there are multiple avatars. One in each Universe. The PF cannot act on its own but empowers one person in each reality / universe to take care of everything there. Similar to fixing any little things that start messsing with the Universe.

The Living Tribunal has been around since the beginning of all of the multiverses. He only intervenes when one universe starts amassing more cosmic or mystical power than the other universes. He is there to remain order. LT only acts on things that will ultimately affect the entire multiverse.

LT deals with things on a much bigger scale than the PF. The PF cannot act on its own thats why it needs the avatars. They both have their roles in the Universe though and if one ceased to exist nothing good will come of it.

I will say this though... if the LT is hit by a Shi'ar spaceship blaster... I am pretty sure he would not die... like Phoenix did. So thats my look on it.

markolin
Actually when Jean became Phoenix the first time it was in order to fix the M'Krann Crystal,whose annihilation wave could destroy the Universe (as seen in Uxm 107-108) or rather,the entire Multiverse (as further explained later in Gambit and the X-ternals 3 in the Age of Apocalypse) in an istant.The LT has never done anything on this scale.Nor I have ever seen him holding an Universe in his hands as Jean does in Nxm 154.
The point of the avatars is that they incarnate in order to achieve a human viewpoint and perform precision work from the inside,with the least possible degree of interference.Universes are fragile things after all.Jean's Universe heart "got stuck" in Nxm 154.
The model is that wimp,God,who was "unable to act by himself" and sent to Earth his human avatar,who clearly is overrated because was killed by a few nails.
The phoenix did not die when hit by a spaceship blaster.I dont know what you're referring to,but all phoenix manifestations in our plane of reality are created by the avatar.The Phoenix that was chasen down by the Sh'iar in Endsong was an aspect of Jean,just as Phoenix in the Dark Phoenix Saga was Jean.And the avatars are human beings.They can die (only to be reborn when they're needed).
The Phoenix is the force of creation.Whitout it there wouldnt be a multiverse.As Cosmic Flame said,it is at the beginning and ending of every Universe.This has been said many times in Uxm,Classic X-men,X-men The End,Excalibur (for example the issue in which Galactus tries to exorcise the phoenix from Rachel) X-men Forever (by Eternity himself),etc.

Jason8200
Ok so she was still killed by a Shi'ar spaceship. So....

Superherovandal
Originally posted by markolin
The model is that wimp,God,who was "unable to act by himself" and sent to Earth his human avatar,who clearly is overrated because was killed by a few nails.



dude talking about comics is fine but when you make fun of people's beliefs and downplay you are crossing the line. So i suggest you stop making fun of Christianity and get back on subject before you offend a lot of people and you get kicked out of this forum

kevdude
killed by a few nails??? thats the very bad to say, he was beatin to a pulp even before he was put on the cross, he was on the cross for hours before he died for everyones sin (just like the sin u just did markolin), Jesus LET himself be killed, if he wanted to he could have snapped his fingers and every Angel in Heaven would have come down and killed all of the roman soldiers.....

Beyonder
Originally posted by markolin
The LT has never done anything on this scale.Nor I have ever seen him holding an Universe in his hands as Jean does in Nxm 154.


Thanos with the IG stomped an entire bridgade of cosmic deities. Nebula with the IG did the same thing. Warlock with the IG attacked Eternity and dropped him on his knees. He than knocked Galactus, a Watcher, Ziran a Celestial, Chaos, Order, etc. None of them could do anything to him. LT with a snap of the finger restored order, even Warlock was shocked. Eternity than continued his case.

Remember Marvel Vs. DC? If we're bringing in the reckons of Phoenix, well Marvel reckoned the Brothers to being pawns of Spectre and LT. LT was holding them in the palm of his hand and watching them as The Dweller in the Darkness watched. This reckon also happened in an X-Men book.

markolin
Originally posted by Superherovandal
dude talking about comics is fine but when you make fun of people's beliefs and downplay you are crossing the line. So i suggest you stop making fun of Christianity and get back on subject before you offend a lot of people and you get kicked out of this forum

I did not make fun of christianity at all.Like it or not the original story of the Phoenix closely parallels that of Jesus. Jean becomes Phoenix after sacrifing her life to save her friends,she resurrects and saves the universe.All the symbols (the sun,symbolized by the solar storm,the death/rebirth,the sacrifice,the phoenix-which was the prime symbol for Jesus from early christianity through the Middle Ages) are closely connected to the symbolism of incarnation,and Claremont used them consciously.She sacrificed herself for love,and she became something greater for this.Later,when she fixes the M'Krann Crystal,she feels that together with the other x-men they are a whole that is more than the sum of its part.My sarcasm was pointed at the endlessly repeated argument that the phoenix needs avatars to act,which to me is a sign of lack of imagination and of true understanding of the symbolism used from the beginning.And what I said about God and Christ was just to show the dangers of a too literal take on things.

markolin
Originally posted by Beyonder
Thanos with the IG stomped an entire bridgade of cosmic deities. Nebula with the IG did the same thing. Warlock with the IG attacked Eternity and dropped him on his knees. He than knocked Galactus, a Watcher, Ziran a Celestial, Chaos, Order, etc. None of them could do anything to him. LT with a snap of the finger restored order, even Warlock was shocked. Eternity than continued his case.

Remember Marvel Vs. DC? If we're bringing in the reckons of Phoenix, well Marvel reckoned the Brothers to being pawns of Spectre and LT. LT was holding them in the palm of his hand and watching them as The Dweller in the Darkness watched. This reckon also happened in an X-Men book.


But he was not seen outside the Universe,holding it in his hands.He was always shown as a part of it.
The x-men book you refer to is not in continuity.It is the comic version of the adventure of x-men cartoon.

Superherovandal
but still you just please try to keep away from biblical references before you anger more than just me.

Superherovandal
and don't you ever call God a wimp. He created the people who thought up the PF so he is infinitely more powerful. None of us can ever hope to realize what his responsibility is so don't make fun.

Beyonder
Originally posted by markolin
But he was not seen outside the Universe,holding it in his hands.He was always shown as a part of it.

So holding the universe in your hands means she's more powerful than him? He's not part of the universe. He's guardian of the multiverse. Every cosmic deity regards him as the most powerful being just below TOAA. Holding the universe in your hands doesn't prove anything. When the Phoenix can casually dismiss Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, Celestials, Watchers, etc. like the Infinity Gauntlet, then we can talk. Magus and his citadel existed outside the normal universe during Infinity War. Still doesn't mean a thing. Agamotto said it himself that the affairs of Dr. Strange's universe hold no baring in his own cosmos - whatever happens to Eternity is not Agamotto's concern. Agamotto is below LT.

LT snapped his finger and restored order. Warlock w/ IG was shocked.



It's an obvious reckon. LT referred to the Brothers as part of his plan, and he was going to consult his hooded spectral ally. It's a reckon both Marvel & DC agreed to.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Jason8200
Ok so she was still killed by a Shi'ar spaceship. So....

No, she wasn't.

Besides, I believe this thread is about the Phoenix Force itself, not it's avatars. How can the Phoenix Force die?

markolin
Originally posted by Beyonder
So holding the universe in your hands means she's more powerful than him? He's not part of the universe. He's guardian of the multiverse. Every cosmic deity regards him as the most powerful being just below TOAA. Holding the universe in your hands doesn't prove anything. When the Phoenix can casually dismiss Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, Celestials, Watchers, etc. like the Infinity Gauntlet, then we can talk. Magus and his citadel existed outside the normal universe during Infinity War. Still doesn't mean a thing. Agamotto said it himself that the affairs of Dr. Strange's universe hold no baring in his own cosmos - whatever happens to Eternity is not Agamotto's concern. Agamotto is below LT.

LT snapped his finger and restored order. Warlock w/ IG was shocked.



It's an obvious reckon. LT referred to the Brothers as part of his plan, and he was going to consult his hooded spectral ally. It's a reckon both Marvel & DC agreed to.


I dont want to imply she's more powerful or anything.
While many beings exist outside the normal Universe,they are more in pocket dimensions on the outskirts of it,so to speak.We dont see them holding the Universe with the power to crush it in their hands.The visual was meant to convey the impression that the WHR is a higher plane of reality,from which viewpoint Universes are little things of no consequence.Quentin would have just let that Universe die,Jean restored it.
As for all the entities you have named,I suppose that in the alternate reality in which Jean become DarK Phoenix a second time in what if 27 they were eaten whitout much resistance when she devoured the entire Universe in the last panel of the story big grin

As for the retcon,I think it was more of a tongue-in-cheek thing.Anyway neither the amalgam crossovers nor adventures of x-men are really in continuity and are never referenced elsewhere.

Beyonder
Originally posted by markolin

As for all the entities you have named,I suppose that in the alternate reality in which Jean become DarK Phoenix a second time in what if 27 they were eaten whitout much resistance when she devoured the entire Universe in the last panel of the story.

In another what if, the Phoenix couldn't even kill Set. All it did was make Set stronger. wink

markolin
But that was Rachel,and at the time of the what if she was still limited in the use of her powers.
It wasnt up until the battle with Necrom that she let loose with the Phoenix.In Excalibur she was even beaten by the robot version of Twitty from the Looney Tunes.
Nevertheless the handling of the phoenix in the what if was very bad.Rachel+Phoenix should have been alone in the Multiverse.Other versions of Rachel across the Multiverse didnt bond with the phoenix,this was even confirmed by Roma.

IRTMU-Dragon
For those of you argueing about christianity, some of us here dont believe in god, so id be careful along those lines too.

leonheartmm
tribunal

Hyperstorm
The Living Tribunal would win hands down. Mainly because he is basically the judge of all things that happen in the Marvel Universe. Meaning that even if he's not stronger (which I strongly disagree with), he still has jurisdiction over the Force due to him carrying out the will of TOAA. Raw power doesn't even come into question. He tells everyone what to do, and if you don't like it then you have to answer to his boss. And as far as Phoenix being able to hold the universe in her hands, the Tribunal has the power to destroy the Multiverse if necessary, as stated before. Shaq can hold a marble in his hands, but does that mean he can crush it?

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