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dude didnt you realize palpy probably knew that anakin was coming so, he made it out like mace defeated him and claimed he was too week.

I wouldnt say Yoda lost, the only thing he lost was his lightsaber he kind of owerpowered Palpy with force lightning so..........

Physically Mace is more powerfull than Yoda , but in the area of wisdom and the force Yoda is king. I have said this on other threas but u can compare Sidous to Yoda as being phsycally weak but powerfully mentally. The dont have that Raw Power to defeat enemies with they use rely on there superior intelllect. In the same way Anakin has youth and greater physical power than Dooku. The Count clearly is more experianced than Anakin but the raw power factor of Anakin is too much for him. Mace defeats Sidous in the same way. Obi wan wins his duel against a more powerfull Anakin cause he is still in his prime unlike Sidous and Dooku being old geezers.

Interesting was why MAce didn't slice off his head. OB1 and Anakin had little trouble killing off a Sith, why did Mace?

Originally posted by sneeky_ninja
dude didnt you realize palpy probably knew that anakin was coming so, he made it out like mace defeated him and claimed he was too week.

Dude ... Didnt you realize that Sidious was squirmming in the corner and then FINALLY realized that Anakin was there. There is nothing and I mean nothing in the movie or novel that has ever indicated that Sidious knew Anakin was coming. Sidious lost and saw Anakin running up and took control of the situation.

No, Sidious is more powerful than Mace.

You see...the Sith thrive on deceptions and lies and ruses. That was a ruse. He might have been fighting for his life at some point during it...I mean, if he didn't try at all, Mace would chop off his head and make him his b!tch. Of course, the ruse was to be believable if Mace seriously thought he had Palpy where he wanted him. It was the other way around, unfortunately for the Windu. Palpy toyed with him, then brought him down the way he least expected.

I don't believe that for a second. Sidious was faking.

Mace is a pussy. But Yoda could've beaten him.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I don't believe that for a second. Sidious was faking.

Mace is a pussy. But Yoda could've beaten him.

Mace is a pussy? Did Mace run like a little ***** away from a fight? Oh wait ... he did ... Sidious did though ... Like a little pussy he ran from the fight with Yoda.

Quote me one like from the book or movie that proves Sidious knew Anakin was coming and then we will talk about Sidious 'playing' around with one of the best Jedi on the council.

Originally posted by Kenpokarate 2
Mace is a pussy? Did Mace run like a little ***** away from a fight? Oh wait ... he did ... Sidious did though ... Like a little pussy he ran from the fight with Yoda.

Quote me one like from the book or movie that proves Sidious knew Anakin was coming and then we will talk about Sidious 'playing' around with one of the best Jedi on the council.


Doh!

I meant "didnt" and "line".

Look at the way Mace fought. He sucked. I could've beaten him in a second.

Sidous put away those other Jedi in seconds he could easily have killed Mace.

I haven't read the novel and consider it redundant anyway.

Sidous is a puusy as well for trying to run away from Yoda. But I think their powers are pretty much equal. Sidious is just lucky Yoda's claws couldn't hold him up and that he grabbed onto the rail.

Sidious tells Anakin (through the Force) "If they kill me you can't save Padme" or something like that. He knew Anakin was coming.

I just dont see why Sidious would risk being fried to death with his own lightinging. I really dont think he was toying with Mace. I need more proof.

Yoda on the other hand. Sidious had no reason to toy with Yoda. The only offensive move Sidious put on Yoda was the force lightning right at the start. I think Yoda took the rest of the match. I must admitt I was surprised to see Yoda sending Sidious flying across his office into his chair. That was funny. Then he tried to run like a coward after that.

Then there is the force lighting attack that Yoda sent right back into Sidious' face. I think Sidious was even surprised by that.

But I dont think that Mace would take Yoda in a duel or a force battle. Yoda is pretty tough with the saber also.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Look at the way Mace fought. He sucked. I could've beaten him in a second.

Sidous put away those other Jedi in seconds he could easily have killed Mace.

I haven't read the novel and consider it redundant anyway.

Sidous is a puusy as well for trying to run away from Yoda. But I think their powers are pretty much equal. Sidious is just lucky Yoda's claws couldn't hold him up and that he grabbed onto the rail.

Sidious tells Anakin (through the Force) "If they kill me you can't save Padme" or something like that. He knew Anakin was coming.

Redundant to read uh? Interesting ...

Actually ... Sidious said "If I die then my power dies with me." He didnt say "if they kill me." Big difference there ...

Mace sucked so much that he kicked the lightsabre out of his hand. Didnt slice it, he freaking kicked it. Which says to me that Sidious was to damn slow to see a foot coming. Mace even kicks the lightsabre out of his hand before Anakin even ran into the room. Mace won ... With out Anakin ... Sidious would have been another dead sith.

He also needed his face to be fried to turn the Senate against the Jedi...

I dunno... I still believe 'losing' the duel was in Sidious's plan. If he wanted to he could have stopped using the lightning at anytime... but he didn't. He kept going until 'he couldn't hold it any longer' (which he was also faking).

Originally posted by Kenpokarate 2
Actually ... Sidious said "If I die then my power dies with me." He didnt say "if they kill me." Big difference there ...
He says to Anakin through the Force when Anakin is in the Council room before the fight: "If the Jedi destroy me any chance of saving her will be lost."

It's not one of those things that you read or watch and Palpatine suddenly stops and goes "Hey kids, I'm doing this so I can take over the galaxy, go ahead and try this at home!" it's more implied.

I have no doubt that as soon as Anakin ran into the room and Sidious didnt have his lightsabre that he used and played Anakin into killing Mace, however; Mace was the obvious better swordsmen in the battle.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
He also needed his face to be fried to turn the Senate against the Jedi...

I think I would have come up with a better idea rather than allegedly toying with Mace Windu.

I went and looked in the book and Sidious says "When I die, my knowledge die with me ..." way before Anakin ever told Mace that Palps was the Sith Lord Sidious.

I also went and looked up the fight between them two and the fight started way before Anakin got there. Anakin got there right when Mace cut Sidious lightsabre in half (or kicks it away:the movie).

I repeat, there is nothing ever implied in the book or movie that leads me to suspect that Sidious was toying with Mace in the lightsabre fight.

Way before Anakin denounces him to Mace?

It's all implied! It's just something you understand through judgement. It's fine if you don't think so, but I do.

Sidious is one of those especially evil, conniving people that plans things. I implied from his character that the duel with Mace was all according to plan.

I'll say again: from the movie... Sidious says to Anakin through the Force when Anakin is in the Council room before the fight: "If the Jedi destroy me any chance of saving her will be lost."

this is enough for me to suggest Sidious knew he was coming and was faking it...

Why Mace Windu? Why didnt Sidious 'toy' with the other Jedi Masters? Why did Sidious want to toy with the best Swordsman on the council besides Yoda? Remember, Sidious try running from Yoda and since Mace is almost as powerful as Yoda, why did Sidious choose to so call 'play' around with Mace?

We all know why Sidious tried running. He didnt want to take the chance of dying at the hands of Yoda so with that in mind, why would he take a chance to toy around the 2 strongest Jedi on the council? It doesnt make sense ...

Because Mace is still a great swordsman. The greatest in the Order. But, however, this doesn't mean that Sidious can still toy with him. Plus, I think Sidious would have had a difficult time toying with FOUR Masters, even if they were pitiful swordsmen.

Sidious ran from Yoda because there was no need to toy with him. Yoda was his equal, Sidious did get lucky in that fight.

With Mace, he was trying to turn Anakin to the Dark-Side through that fight.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I'll say again: from the movie... Sidious says to Anakin through the Force when Anakin is in the Council room before the fight: "If the Jedi destroy me any chance of saving her will be lost."

this is enough for me to suggest Sidious knew he was coming and was faking it...

Sidious was not talking through the force to Anakin. Anakin was remembering what he said earlier.

He said "Jedi" not Mace Windu. It is quite obvious that the Jedi would have tried to destroy him.

I thought it was cool how Yoda dispatched the Clonetroopers on Kashyyyk who tried to kill him.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Because Mace is still a great swordsman. The greatest in the Order. But, however, this doesn't mean that Sidious can still toy with him. Plus, I think Sidious would have had a difficult time toying with FOUR Masters, even if they were pitiful swordsmen.

Sidious ran from Yoda because there was no need to toy with him. Yoda was his equal, Sidious did get lucky in that fight.

With Mace, he was trying to turn Anakin to the Dark-Side through that fight.

He tried to turn Anakin as soon as he knew Anakin was there. Which was after the lightsabre fight. Like I said in another thread, I have no doubt that when Sidious knew he was beaten by mace that he tried to get to Anakin.

Sidious was pretending to be beaten by Mace. Sidious knew that Anakin would come so he made it look like Mace was gonna kill him. Sidious knew that Anakin seeing a Jedi master suposedly assassanating his mentor would turn him to the darkside.

Originally posted by ApolloX
Sidious was pretending to be beaten by Mace. Sidious knew that Anakin would come so he made it look like Mace was gonna kill him. Sidious knew that Anakin seeing a Jedi master suposedly assassanating his mentor would turn him to the darkside.

I want quotes and lines from the novel and movie to support that

If you didn't notice, he's been keeping tabs on Anakin and trying to turn him since he was found, Kenpo...

I havent memorized the movie nor read the novel but thats what I remember.

Dont get me wrong ...

I respect all of your opinions, I really do but remember this. There isnt enough evidence to support either side of the arguement. Its all on how we personally view it and I personally think that Sidious got his butt kicked!

Originally posted by Captain REX
If you didn't notice, he's been keeping tabs on Anakin and trying to turn him since he was found, Kenpo...


I totally agree man ... He has been keeping tabs and it took more then him cutting Mace Windu hand off to turn him. I personally think he was turned when he didnt strike Sidious down when he found out that he was a sith lord.

I also think that Mace Windu shouldve have shut the hell up and killed him. He had the opportunity to but he didnt do it.

I just think that Mace is the better swordsman than Sidious

Possibly a better swordsman but raw power sidious can put mace away.

Mace was setup to turn anakin, its obvious, he wanted the chosen one on his side to mock of the jedi. hence why he keeps his crippled ass with him for 23 years. The next best thing? the chosen ones children, only they can get as close of potential anakin had when he was whole human.

Sidious got lucky against yoda hence why he 'won', they are pretty evenly matched.

Mace put up a good fight against Sidious, but Sidious was partially toying with him. Yes, the lightning shows that he was having SOME trouble at that close range...BUT you have to realize that the second Anakin made a choice, Sidious went full force and destroyed Mace.

Originally posted by Kenpokarate 2
Sidious was not talking through the force to Anakin. Anakin was remembering what he said earlier.

really? damn.

ah well, I still believe it all went according to Sidious's plan...

I'll have to see it again.

Wow, NoFate has a good way with putting things in simpler light...

Final Analysis:

In order of strength

1) Yoda
2) Mace
3) Emperor Palpatine
4) Anakin Skywalker
5) Obi-Wan Kenobi

This is proven by this movie.

Yoda is the man. Palpatine constantly initiated his force attacks from a distance. He matched Yoda in sword play only because Yoda is a weaker sword fighter. NO ONE can defeat Yoda in Force knowledge. No one. Everyone who knew Yoda knows that the only way to have a chance with him is through a sword fight. It's proven in Attack of the Clones with the Dooku duel and now in Sith.

Mace is the strongest sword fighter. He doesn't use a lot of excess movements. To be honest, a true master doesn't need to use a lot of moves. One can be deadly enough. They know they can't play with Mace because one move might be all it takes. Fighting Yoda on the other hand requires a LOT of swordplay moves because of his flurry of attacks in battle. But Yoda is not the best swordfighter. But he is swift.

The rest doesn't need to be explained. Anakin obvious had the sword fight the whole time, but Obi taught him so there was the issue of the pupil succeeding the master, as any good pupil WILL do. I think that Obi would have eventually run out of moves. He got lucky.

Palpatine is very knowledgeable in the Force AND a decent swordfighter. But outclassed. If Yoda and Mace attacked him, he would be dead. Period. Palpatine could not even defeat Mace one on one. Mace could NOT have deflected the force bolts. He isn't centered enough to be so. He is more emotional and physical power. To be honest, Mace would have lost if he DIDN'T have his lightsaber. If it was a one on one force battle, Mace would have lost, period.

Out.

Originally posted by NoFate007
Mace put up a good fight against Sidious, but Sidious was partially toying with him. Yes, the lightning shows that he was having SOME trouble at that close range...BUT you have to realize that the second Anakin made a choice, Sidious went full force and destroyed Mace.

He nailed an armless, saberless mace with the same lightning that mace had ably blocked minutes before when he actually had a saber.
I gotta agree with Kenpo here. Mace vs. Sidious is completely separate from Anakin's arrival. The duel was over before Anakin arrived, and Sidious was the one cowering, saberless, on a ledge.
Did he manipulate Anakin's arrival to his advantage once the opportunity presented itself? Of course he did. He did not, however, risk Mace getting an itchy trigger finger and skewering him before Anakin even arrived as part of some convoluted plot to turn him. It's not in his cowardly nature.
Later on, Sidious attempts to flee from Yoda. Perhaps he's learned a lesson from his underestimation of Mace. :P

that's a good point it will affect my views

southtownbluz is right on. Great analysis.

It had been stated by Lucas himself.

When it comes to lightsaber skills, Mace is second only to Yoda.

In ep2, Obi tells Anakin that if he practiced more on his saber skills, he rival even Master Yoda. I think some people need to watch the movie again.

Sids and Yoda are exact equals. Lightsaber skills along with force knowledge.

Mace is a notch below them.

While you're using in-movie examples, you might want to toss in Anakin's desire to become "as wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master Windu". Don't start tossing around "you need to watch the movie again" platitudes until you can be sure that you're immune from them yourself :P

And as for Sidious and Yoda being exact equals, I don't see it. From what I could tell, Sidious tried to flee, and even in his choice setting, Yoda had the distinct advantage throughout the entire fight. He left mostly because he realized that even he couldn't stand up to a whole squad of clone troopers AND sidious.

Originally posted by mtryder
While you're using in-movie examples, you might want to toss in Anakin's desire to become "as wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master Windu". Don't start tossing around "you need to watch the movie again" platitudes until you can be sure that you're immune from them yourself :P

That not being said to offend anyone. Sorry if I did. But i am still immune from them lol.

Obi told Ani if he spent more time practicing his lightsaber skills hed rival Master Yoda.

Dooku even said that he has become more powerful than any Jedi "Even You!" talkig to Yoda. He didnt say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi. Even Mace"

Either way, Mace isnt on Sids or Yoda's level.

Sure, but "most powerful Jedi" and "best swordsman" are hardly interchangeable terms. Nobody at all will argue that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, which nullifies your second example. The first, however, is a valid one. I was simply pointing out that what Obi-Wan says does not necessarily say that Yoda is the best. Not nearly so much as the statement of Anakin's that I quoted says that Mace is the best. And, at the very least, they cancel each other out and can be chalked up to an inconsistency, in which case it still won't be sufficient justification for the point you're trying to make.

Well actually the statement of Anakins that you quoted didnt imply that Mace was a better swordsman that Yoda. Lightsaber skills were never even mentioned when it came to Mace.

I doubt that Mace could even beat Dooku who was trained by Yoda.

Mace would have whooped Dooku's tail. Mace, might be nearly equal in swordfighting skills with Yoda, but I think Mace's power truly gives him the advantage.

Keep in mind that Dooku was trained by Yoda. That's the only way Dooku would be able to get with him, because he knows the green guy's moves.

As for Mace not being on Sidious' level, the movie clearly proves this wrong. I've never known the Sith to study self mutilation, so the whole faking it to lure Anakin to the dark side explanation is ridiculous. Why the heck would he allow himself to be disfigured just for Anakin to be convinced? That's just too extreme. No, the point is Mace kicked Sidious' butt, and Anakin got there just in time. Sidious knew the Jedi were coming for him. That's why he planted the "life creation" thing in Anakin's mind. He knew what he was doing. He knew Anakin has dangled between his emotions and his duties. He's been close to Anakin for years and he used Anakin's fears to lure him.

Originally posted by sneeky_ninja
dude didnt you realize palpy probably knew that anakin was coming so, he made it out like mace defeated him and claimed he was too week.

Dont you think conquering an all powerfull jedi would be a more convincing to lure someone to the darkside? It would have also saved him looking like a wrinkled dick. The book i read with mace, singled him out as the most skilled jedi in lightsabers

I still am not convinced Windu could take Yoda in a saber contest.

Originally posted by Captain REX
No, Sidious is more powerful than Mace.

You see...the Sith thrive on deceptions and lies and ruses. That was a ruse. He might have been fighting for his life at some point during it...I mean, if he didn't try at all, Mace would chop off his head and make him his b!tch. Of course, the ruse was to be believable if Mace seriously thought he had Palpy where he wanted him. It was the other way around, unfortunately for the Windu. Palpy toyed with him, then brought him down the way he least expected. just goes to show that the best star war movies are in our head, because you obviously diddnt watch the same movie i did.