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Was sid faking when he faught mace?

Yippee another poll

I think so; just so Anakin would get convinced to side with him

YES

Dude you posted in two threads discussing that...is it really necessary to start a third?

Anyways my opinion: Yes but he would have lost anyways just some time later

I'm ending this stupid disscussion because it keeps on coming up

I thin he was faking, I just noticed during the fight that at one point Palp has his saber pointed at Mace who turns toward him with his hands up, he could have killed him right there if he wanted to.

yeah and he killed the other jedi fast (even though it looked weird) and mace is only slightly better than them

Originally posted by astrofan428
I thin he was faking, I just noticed during the fight that at one point Palp has his saber pointed at Mace who turns toward him with his hands up, he could have killed him right there if he wanted to.

sid waited for anakin to arrive so anakin would have to make a choice.: to prevent mace from killing sid or to kill sid himself

yeah

Obi_wan is trying to sway folk by those who think he was faking AFTER he was beaten by the saber......cheater!

u stupid newbie. YES HE WAS

Originally posted by umraan
u stupid newbie. YES HE WAS

umraan, youre like my evil side that i keep locked up

whos a newbie?...Man I was in line for ANH in the 70s when it forst came out and the 7 oclock show was sold out ...Im an original!...But its okay if you were talking OBi-Wan

No he wasn't. If you watch the movie and you know anything about fighting you can see that Mace was in complete control the entire fight while Sidious his moves imitated that of a guy who has just learned how to carry a sword.

Mace was in control Sidious lost from Mace fairly in the lightsaber duel, Mace even Kicked the lightsaber out of his hands. KICKED. Sidious lost and crawled back before Anakin even arrived, and don't tell me he knew he was coming bullshit. What would you be focusing on when fighting Mace, Anakin coming or one of the greatest Jedi duellists? The second...

Now when Mace got that lightning reflected in his face, he could have been faking then.. But not enough to make him win. I agree that he was faking to make Anakin kill Mace, he was playing weaker then he was. He could still hold on, he could shoot more lightning and handle more. But he wasn't faking his lose, he would have lost would it have not been for Anakin. It would have just taken a lot longer.

he was faking the whole time not knowing when anakin was going to walk in...if anakin walked in in the middle of the fight then he would of saw sid losing...

he didnt even need to try against windu because he sucked so bad...so he could think about 2 things at once...remember the fight with yoda he was going crazy with the force and lightning ...he could of just done that kinda of lighsber fighting when he was vs yoda or use the force in the middle of the fight.... he let him kick it out but he force caught it later....sid could of wuped him

Originally posted by Obi-wan2005
he was faking the whole time not knowing when anakin was going to walk in...if anakin walked in in the middle of the fight then he would of saw sid losing...

So he holds his lightsaber like an idiot when he fights Yoda too, whats his reason then?

Seriously you are seeing things that are not there, why not let all four Jedi live then? Would that not have been better for Anakin, he could have killed some of them himself when he would join up with Anakin.

And again I have to ask this, Sidious realised he was no match for Yoda (please do not debate that in this thread) so he decided to run away. Mace was seen as second only to Yoda but he was close, why would Sidious who basically gave Mace a chance to kill him run away from Yoda?

If you can beat somebody slightly weaker with ease at any time even when you don't have your lightsaber anymore and you are on the ground screaming in pain, would you run from somebody slightly stronger?

I wouldn't I would stand around and kill the little piggy Sidious didn't. I don't care what you say, but he wasn't faking the entire fight. He looked scared at a few points, why would he be that if he was winning. Mace looked in control while Sidious was struggling at some points in the fight. His face says enough. Why would he act that if Anakin isn't even there yet.

Of course he was

Yoda ran from sid u dumbass

he knew anakin was coming (maybe not by the force but he knew before the fight even started) but he didnt know when so he did bad the whole fight just to make sure

Sid ran from yoda...that is obvious

Hey Dumbbazz....Sids is the one who tried to run

Im gonna double post in your thread since you are too...why you name callin so quickly?

He wasn't sure Anakin would come he hoped he would come...

And Yoda did not loose from Sidious read another thread about this before you start calling me a dumbass..

And you still haven't answered any of my questions or debated any of my points, you just called me a dumbass... Yeah that will make you win... God if you are so sure Sidious would win, tell me why... Show me the evidence..

he cant show any evidence....thats why he got mad and started name callin like an 8 year old...lol

they were both falling...but yoda fell to the ground sid got back up...then yoda went through that vent


ok i will.........if he wanted him dead he would of not even bothered with the lightsaber duel...he would of fryed him right there....he also could of easly force pushed him out of the window.....remember with yoda he was throwing those chairs that the senates site in at yoda easily...he also faught off yoda (who is the bets lightsaber duelist) with a lightsaber for a long time.......mace also faught just like luke and vader do in 4,5,and 6 no fast swinging or flips just simple...head shot....body shot...lower body shot..oh yeah and he was slow...

We need a Janus pic for this guy...whether or not he agrees with him or not he would still think him deserving of a picture....lmao!

who u talking about?

Originally posted by Obi-wan2005
they were both falling...but yoda fell to the ground sid got back up...then yoda went through that vent


ok i will.........if he wanted him dead he would of not even bothered with the lightsaber duel...he would of fryed him right there....he also could of easly force pushed him out of the window.....remember with yoda he was throwing those chairs that the senates site in at yoda easily...he also faught off yoda (who is the bets lightsaber duelist) with a lightsaber for a long time.......mace also faught just like luke and vader do in 4,5,and 6 no fast swinging or flips just simple...head shot....body shot...lower body shot..oh yeah and he was slow...

You are about as smart as a circus monkey ... Why name call man? Are you so insecure with the fact that Sidious sucks balls that you cant stand for a person to tell you other wise?

Freaking pathetic

Thank you for starting another thread about this. It goes real well with the other 50 threads you could have debated about this.

The fact remains that there is plent of evidence to prove Sidious got his ass kicked by Mace Windu. If you quit sucking on Sidious's nuts then maybe you will realize this.

because he is stupid

Originally posted by Obi-wan2005
because he is stupid

He actually had something intelligent to say, not just start name calling. Grow the **** up ...

I'm out

Well there is a scene in the movie when Mace is going to arrest Palps and Anakin is in the Jedi Temple and you hear a whisper of Palps telling Anakin that "If the Jedi kill me, then you realise that she will die" (or something like that I dont know that exact words) but this could be a sign that Sidious knew Anakin would come b/c he needed him to save Padme and it would be a true test for Anakin turning to the dark, but still its very debatable whether Sidious fake it

He was however clearly faking the whole "I'm too weak" business you can see him looking at Anakin with a little grin when Anakin told Mace that he couldn't kill him, that he had to stand trial...so its a question that will be debated for a long time, everyone has their own idea.

Originally posted by XX Emperor XX
Well there is a scene in the movie when Mace is going to arrest Palps and Anakin is in the Jedi Temple and you hear a whisper of Palps telling Anakin that "If the Jedi kill me, then you realise that she will die" (or something like that I dont know that exact words) but this could be a sign that Sidious knew Anakin would come b/c he needed him to save Padme and it would be a true test for Anakin turning to the dark, but still its very debatable whether Sidious fake it

He was however clearly faking the whole "I'm too weak" business you can see him looking at Anakin with a little grin when Anakin told Mace that he couldn't kill him, that he had to stand trial...so its a question that will be debated for a long time, everyone has their own idea.

exactly what I've been saying for the past 4 days...

uh cool is this over yet?

Here we go again with this same talk. To put it simply guys are either to far left or to far right. Remb what obi said only sith think in absloutes. The truth is in the middle it makes sense that Sidious knew Anakin was coming.
Think about do u guys not remb the 1st 20 mins of the movie it was sidoius own plan to have grevious capture his alter ego palpt so that anakin would come and duel with dooku. Dooku may have know as vader did with Luke that they where trying to turn him but he didnt forsee his own demise.
My point sidous greatest power is his mind he is a master of manipulation. If take everything at face value like anakin did you only see what he wants u too see.
All of these things are Tests as GL has said anakin failed his tests these are those he spoke of the descions he makes time and time again are the wrong 1s.
Sidous was constantly testing anakin this was his final Test. Now with that said I dont think sidous was soo much more powerful than Mace that he could easily kill him.
Mace is one othe most powerful Jedi of all time. You can view thier fight the same way you do the Yoda vs Dooku fight from Ep2. Few ppl would argue that Yoda is more powerful than dooku but a fight betweeen to highly skilled masters can go either way depending on circumstanses. Yoda may be more powerful than dooku but the fight was not over in 5 seconds beacuse dooku is no average swordsman.
The same is true with sidous vs mace , sid may have greater force powers but in the area of swordsman ship they are close.
IMO Sidous thought he could stall Mace till Anakin arrived but at the same time under estimated how powerful Mace is and him getting kicked in the face and dropping his saber was not apart of the plan. There are no all powerful charchters in SW all of them make mistakes!!
It just so happned that anakin was coming in as he was on the floor and then he started in on his act of being a victim. After mace reflects his lightning back at him he pretend he has no more energy and says hes too weak that is part of the act. Look at his eyes he is watching anakin as anakin reacts to Mace. Notice how quickly he shoots mace after Anakin cuts his hand. And he gets up so fast.
you can judge this whole scene the way you did the 1st 20 mins do you think he planned every single action that would take place on board the ship during thier escape .. no. He goes with the flow and take advantage of the situation as it comes along as he has done in the other episodes.

Sids got his butt kicked nah na nah na nah na dancedance

This issue will never die will it?

great is it settled then...sid was faking wen anakin arrived but underestimated mace during the fight although he is more powerfulthen mace.

His face got all deformed from faking?

Its been entertaining.....lol.....but I think the poll I started said enough of peoples general thoughts on Sidious being weaker than yoda in the force and Mace being better swordsman...61 out 100 voted for Yoda and Mace...although who knows it could change overnight as more people go and see the movie and then find their way here

Okay seeing as this will never be settled I will depart. I will leave this in the hands of all yall great masterdebators.

glare

Lucas has said that the lightning disfigured Palpatine which is all the evidence I need that he was not faking it

OMG how many times is this going to be discussed

The lightning disfigured him, so what? I still believe Palpatine was at least partially toying with Mace. And he was totally faking the "I'm too weak" bit.

i believe that palps looked like that in the first place. he put on the chancellor mask so he wouldn't look like satan's @$$h*le in front of the galactic senate. so yes, he was SO faking it.

I agree. I don't care what Lucas says...

If Palpatine was toying with Mace why didnt he let Anakin finish off Mace rather than push him out the window?

I think Palpatine was p!ssed off that Mace beat him and took the opportunity to finish him after Anakins slices Maces hand off.

I don't think Anakin would have killed Mace... he just didn't want Mace to kill Palpatine.

It's tough to say whether he was faking. In my opinion, Mace beat him fair and square. Palpatine didn't start faking anything until he let up with his Force lightning and said "I'm too weak."

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I don't think Anakin would have killed Mace... he just didn't want Mace to kill Palpatine. I dont think so.

Anakin had no trouble killing the the younglings.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
If Palpatine was toying with Mace why didnt he let Anakin finish off Mace rather than push him out the window?

I think Palpatine was p!ssed off that Mace beat him and took the opportunity to finish him after Anakins slices Maces hand off.

anakin wouldn't kill mace. he already had reservations about killing dooku... and he was a sith. ani didn't even wanna chop off mace's hand. but after he was like, "oh sh!t... meh, might as well turn."

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I dont think so.

Anakin had no trouble killing the the younglings. But that was after he made up his mind to join Palpatine... I don't believe Anakin would have killed Mace.

I think Mace put up a good fight... but if Palpatine really wanted to he could have killed Mace easily. But he needed to get into that situation to turn Anakin. It was planned.

all this talk about the lightening messing up Palps face, think about it for a moment. Why didn't he have Sith eyes while he was Chancellor? Maul had the Sith eyes because he was filled with hate and was a full Sith. Anakn had them off and on until he went full time (notice when they put the suit on him, he had the Sith eyes), Dooku didn't because he wasn't really hateful, he was just in it for the politics. So if Palps wasn't "masking" his appearance, then why did his eyes SUDDENLY change?

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I agree. I don't care what Lucas says...

Then that opinion is invalid. What Lucas says supercedes anything and everything whether you like it or not.

Ever since it was brought up that he said this so many people have started with the "What Lucas says doesn't matter" thing.

The very definition of Star Wars canon is basically anything that Lucas says or states. What he says goes, it's not that what he says doesn't matter, it's what those who disagree with him say that doesn't matter.

I'm not in any way holding him up as some god or anything, but when it comes to Star Wars he essentially is; he's the creator. If I created a universe I could say anything I wanted and it would go too. That's the reason that what he says trumps all else.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when it disagrees with Lucas it changes from opinion to factually falacious.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
all this talk about the lightening messing up Palps face, think about it for a moment. Why didn't he have Sith eyes while he was Chancellor? Maul had the Sith eyes because he was filled with hate and was a full Sith. Anakn had them off and on until he went full time (notice when they put the suit on him, he had the Sith eyes), Dooku didn't because he wasn't really hateful, he was just in it for the politics. So if Palps wasn't "masking" his appearance, then why did his eyes SUDDENLY change?

It doesn't matter, it really doesn't. If Lucas says his face was messed up by the lightning, that's the truth, all other factors completely aside.

The reasoning behind his EYES changing is open for debate; the reasoning for his skin is completely and utterly closed, unless an arguement wishes to ignore Lucas in which case the arguement is invalid.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Then that opinion is invalid. What Lucas says supercedes anything and everything whether you like it or not.

Ever since it was brought up that he said this so many people have started with the "What Lucas says doesn't matter" thing.

The very definition of Star Wars canon is basically anything that Lucas says or states. What he says goes, it's not that what he says doesn't matter, it's what those who disagree with him say that doesn't matter.

I'm not in any way holding him up as some god or anything, but when it comes to Star Wars he essentially is; he's the creator. If I created a universe I could say anything I wanted and it would go too. That's the reason that what he says trumps all else.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when it disagrees with Lucas it changes from opinion to factually falacious.

Kudos to you my friend!!!! That is how you debate!!

his face was TRANSFORMED during the lightening attack. that doesn't definetly mean it DAMAGED him. Lucas just said the lightening "makes him look that way". That doesn't mean it made him look that way through DAMAGE to his skin. Because it looks like it morphs like the t-1000, not like the damage to Ani when he BURNS. You take what he says to literally. Lucas isn't the most articulate guy ever when it comes to picking his vocabulary. He says that moment MAKES him look like that. That can mean maybe it burned him, but it can also mean it made him drop his facade so that he appears to change. Don't be so dogmatic, because lucas has also stated in several interviews, including Entertainment Weekly, that he is so sick of these dogmatic interpretations of his films. And again, you shouldn't lecture anyone about the subtle mechanics of the prequels when you didn't even understand how the TF was used by Sidious in Phantom Menace a few weeks ago.

Mace is a *****, of course he was faking.

For the dummies that think Palpatine sucked-- let's use some examples here, shall we? Didn't we all witness Palpatine strike dead THREE very powerful Jedi Masters all at once in under ten seconds? Show me a Jedi that could knock out any of the two current Sith at the same time in under ten seconds.

logic seems to have no place for the pro Mace argument. There are several logical questions they seem to be ignoring.

Mainly--why would Palps gamble a thousand years worth of planning on Anakin returning if he didn't have a back up plan?

2. Palps has controled everything else about the war up until that point, so again, why would he not have a concrete plan for dealing with a potential (almost enivitable) encounter with Mace and/or Yoda?

Mace camp is without logic?

Palpatine lost his lightsaber, we all saw that.

Mace blocked his lightning at first and could have struck him down already, with how fast Mace moved it would be hard for Palp to stop him. Palp was counting on Anakin to save him. He would not have survived without him. Besides your whole faking it argument has no basis except for the part where he says "I'm so weak, so weak." Now i agree he was faking that but the rest of the fight? Hell no.

no sith crawls from an opponent whimpering unless he had something up his sleeve. He has allowed things to be lost to allow an enemy to think they have the upper hand in the past. Look at ROTJ, he allows the Rebels to think they've stolen the plans to the second Death Star, when in fact he let them take it so they'd attack what was ACTUALLY a fully armed station ready to kick some ass. He set things up to appear to loose so he can exploit them, he did it to Dooku, the TF, he's done it a lot. He very well may have lost his saber for the sheer fact that he wanted Ani to THINK he was defenseless, which he clearly wasn't seeing as he can yell Ultimate POWER and blast Mace with enough Lightening to power New Jersey.

I agree that he was faking how weak he was back then.

But think of it like this, he lost his lightsaber.

Dooku and Yoda still fought with lightsabers becuase they thought that the force alone could decide a clear winner in that fight. Palpatine could no longer fight, he needed his lightning to do the job, and we have all seen that can be blocked with a lightsaber and if your Yoda with your bare hands.

Becuase Mace isn't all that weaker then Yoda he could block it with his lightsaber it may have been hard but he could have done it. How could Sidious have won when he was there on the ground? How could he have won? Please tell me, I want to know.

And he lost the lightsaber fight, nobody can argue that, Anakin wasn't even around when he lost the lightsaber fight, his lightsaber got kicked out of his hands. Kicked, for crying out load.

Besides he crawled back before Anakin arrived, why would he do that? Did he hope Mace would stand there with his lightsaber in his hands just pointing at him until Anakin would finally arive? Come on thats just bullshit

Sids lost in a fair duel against mace and he would have lost against yoda if he hadnt fallen down mace kicked his a.. and so did yoda. And i hated the noise sids was making in his duel against mace and the other jedi masters it was Nasty with a capital N. To be honest i thought dooku dueling style was ten times better than sids and i thought his character was wasted, i would have rather seen grievious die first rather than dooku because that character was crap you cant really call him a duelist obi cut of his hands in 5seconds whoppe what a great duelist.

okay first of all, dooku wanted to beat yoda to show his supremecy and because they SEEMED evenly matched in force abilities. Dooku still had a sense of honor.

Palpatine plays to win.

You say how could Sidious of won if he were on the ground? Oh gee I don't know...maybe spring up with all this strength, blast mace with lightening and yell Ultimate power to let Mace know Palps was always in control of that situation and Mace and the Jedi were always going to loose. How can you even ask "how can he win" when we SAW HIM WIN!

I think you're missing the bigger picture saying he "lost the lightsaber fight". That wasn't the point. Palps lost it so that when Ani walked in, he would think Mace was about to commit murder, he has no idea what Palps can and is about to do. The whole point of Palps' set up is to make it look as though he'd lost, and then let Ani think he helped him in some way. Ani has to turn on his own, Palps can show him the Dark Side, but Anakin still has to willingly turn. If Palps doesn't make it look like he's lost, Anakin won't sympathize, and more importantly, won't think the Jedi have gone nuts as Palps said. So Palps throws the saber fight, let's Mace think he's winning, exploiting Mace's overconfidence (which the rebels will in turn do to Palps at the end of ROTJ, see its a running theme). The Ani comes in, says whoa, we aren't murders, comes to agree with palps, and helps him, thus willingly turning to the Dark Side. At that point, Palps deception involving Mace is no longer needed, so he kicks Mace's butt. Much like a cat playing with its prey until its finally decided to kill it.

You can't say "oh but he lost the saber fight" because a) he threw it on purpose for reasons i've just explained, and b) because thats like watching kick boxing and two guys get into a punching match, one is winning, then the other kicks him in the head, knocking him out. Now sure the first guy was winning when it was just punching, but then he got kicked in the head and lost the fight. Fights aren't over until they're over. And in this case, it was never really even a fight. It was all a set up, just like how the clone wars weren't really a war because Palps/Sids controled both sides at once. It wasn't even a real fight. Thats the joke. Mace was never going to win.

So you are saying Palps would throw away his lightsaber and put himself in a vulnerable possition before Anakin showed up?

What if Mace would have tried to kill him immediately his entire plan failed, to much of what you say is guessing and depends on chance. Palpatine was to smart for something like that, he hoped Anakin would come along. He hoped Anakin would support him and I do believe that he started losing more when Anakin walked in but he lost before that too..

And you still haven't answered my questions from my last post, read it again then debate that. Stop saying the same thing as if they are facts but actually proof me wrong

if mace had moved to kill him, he would have done his finishing move earlier, and had to find another way to turn ani. luckily, Palps uses the force to see into the future, the force no doubt told him Ani would return so he didn't sweat it. So to answer your question, Palps would have just fried mace and thrown him out the window sooner.

Originally posted by palpy_666
For the dummies that think Palpatine sucked-- let's use some examples here, shall we? Didn't we all witness Palpatine strike dead THREE very powerful Jedi Masters all at once in under ten seconds? Show me a Jedi that could knock out any of the two current Sith at the same time in under ten seconds.

Yes that bit had me thinking how they hell couldnt they block it. I heard palp was supposed to be fast but he wasnt he was extremly slow.

Originally posted by Fishy
I agree that he was faking how weak he was back then.

But think of it like this, he lost his lightsaber.

Dooku and Yoda still fought with lightsabers becuase they thought that the force alone could decide a clear winner in that fight. Palpatine could no longer fight, he needed his lightning to do the job, and we have all seen that can be blocked with a lightsaber and if your Yoda with your bare hands.

Becuase Mace isn't all that weaker then Yoda he could block it with his lightsaber it may have been hard but he could have done it. How could Sidious have won when he was there on the ground? How could he have won? Please tell me, I want to know.

And he lost the lightsaber fight, nobody can argue that, Anakin wasn't even around when he lost the lightsaber fight, his lightsaber got kicked out of his hands. Kicked, for crying out load.

Besides he crawled back before Anakin arrived, why would he do that? Did he hope Mace would stand there with his lightsaber in his hands just pointing at him until Anakin would finally arive? Come on thats just bullshit

okay lets see, I covered the first paragraph, I convered the second, the third i covered. So the only thing you still need to know is why did he crawl away before Ani came? Simple, to get into the position he was when Ani arrived. He had to be on his back, weaponless, with Mace over him, ready to slice him up for Ani to see. I've covered all of this. Maybe its my posts YOU need to re-read. As my last very LONG one coverring the intricasies of this scene you've completely neglected to answer for.

Fishy, I want you to read this again, slowly and carefully. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm serious. This really does cover all your questions. It covers why he allows his lightsaber to be taken from him, why he'd crawl into position before Ani arrives, and most importantly, why he'd do all these things, ie--the significance of why he WOULD allow such things to happen.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
You say how could Sidious of won if he were on the ground? Oh gee I don't know...maybe spring up with all this strength, blast mace with lightening and yell Ultimate power to let Mace know Palps was always in control of that situation and Mace and the Jedi were always going to loose. How can you even ask "how can he win" when we SAW HIM WIN!

I think you're missing the bigger picture saying he "lost the lightsaber fight". That wasn't the point. Palps lost it so that when Ani walked in, he would think Mace was about to commit murder, he has no idea what Palps can and is about to do. The whole point of Palps' set up is to make it look as though he'd lost, and then let Ani think he helped him in some way. Ani has to turn on his own, Palps can show him the Dark Side, but Anakin still has to willingly turn. If Palps doesn't make it look like he's lost, Anakin won't sympathize, and more importantly, won't think the Jedi have gone nuts as Palps said. So Palps throws the saber fight, let's Mace think he's winning, exploiting Mace's overconfidence (which the rebels will in turn do to Palps at the end of ROTJ, see its a running theme). The Ani comes in, says whoa, we aren't murders, comes to agree with palps, and helps him, thus willingly turning to the Dark Side. At that point, Palps deception involving Mace is no longer needed, so he kicks Mace's butt. Much like a cat playing with its prey until its finally decided to kill it.

You can't say "oh but he lost the saber fight" because a) he threw it on purpose for reasons i've just explained, and b) because thats like watching kick boxing and two guys get into a punching match, one is winning, then the other kicks him in the head, knocking him out. Now sure the first guy was winning when it was just punching, but then he got kicked in the head and lost the fight. Fights aren't over until they're over. And in this case, it was never really even a fight. It was all a set up, just like how the clone wars weren't really a war because Palps/Sids controled both sides at once. It wasn't even a real fight. Thats the joke. Mace was never going to win.

I've read it, but your entire theory depends on one thing.

Palps looking weak when Anakin would walk in, I can accept that, if it had any basis in the movie that is.

Lets just put some facts in a row

Yoda and Palpatine are about equal in force powers, Yoda slightly superior as seen in the movie and Yoda still tried using a lightsaber to finish Sidious. He left when his lightsaber was gone because he knew he couldn't win anymore.

Yoda fought Dooku and continued fighting with his lightsaber because he knew he could not win with the force alone, meaning lightsabers are needed in a duel against somebody with a great control of the force.

Obi managed to block Dooku his lightning with his lightsaber, it was weaker then Sids his lightning but Obi was a lot weaker then Mace too. Besides Dooku wasn't all that much weaker then Sidious.

Now when you look at that wouldn't it seem that you would need a lightsaber to fight against somebody that is more then a good Jedi? Wouldn't you think that as seen in the movies Mace can block Sidious his attacks? Don't you think that Sidious would need a lightsaber to defeat Mace? Sidious may be good but he is no god.

Tell me how come Sidious is so much more powerful then any of those people and would still say Anakin would surpass him soon, and why he would still try to run from Yoda? If he really has god like powers he has no reason to do or think so.

Originally posted by xeous
Mace is a *****, of course he was faking.


Sidious ran from Yoda, so that makes Sidious the obvious pussy here.

I have been saying in other threads that Sidious was controlling the situation but only after he got beaten by Mace Windu in the lightsabre fight. Sidious wasnt 'playing' around with Mace Windu when they were fighting with their lightsabre's. Remember, Sidious is a Sith and the Sith hate the Jedi. Sidious wouldv'e struck Mace Windu down if he could have ,like he did with the other three worthless Jedi on the floor.

Go back, see the movie, read the novel, I dont care. To quote the novel, Sidious says "I have been waiting for this for a very long time." Clearly meaning he was waiting to cut into some JEdi and start the Jedi purge.

Sidious was not playing around with Mace Windu. You people need to start giving Mace Windu some credit and realize that the great and powerful Sith Lord of the galaxy for bested with the lightsabre by the Koran Master.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
Fishy, I want you to read this again, slowly and carefully. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm serious. This really does cover all your questions. It covers why he allows his lightsaber to be taken from him, why he'd crawl into position before Ani arrives, and most importantly, why he'd do all these things, ie--the significance of why he WOULD allow such things to happen.


Funny ... I thought he lost his lightsabre when MACE kicked it out of his hand.

So two kickboxers are going at it and all of a sudden a fan of the losing kickboxer grabs a chair, jumps into the ring and hits the other kickboxer on the head with the chair making him defenseless. THEN the losing kickboxer starts kick the crap out of the stunned kickboxer and wins. Thats not a win bud ... and irt doesnt fit what happened with Sidious and MAce.The whole kickboxing analogy doesnt work. Simply because it wasnt just Mace and Sidiuos. Anakin stepped in and messed it all up.

Perception: Sidious is an all-knowing, all-mighty dark god. Everything that happens does so because that's how he wanted it.

Fact: Sidious is intelligent, powerful and a master of manipulation. But he is HUMAN. He makes mistakes, he loses fights, he can and does screw up. He did not plan for his first apprentice to get sliced & diced, he did not know Anakin and Padme would fall in love, did not plan to get his face melted off etc. He is very good at turning things to his advantage but he is fallible. The fact that he can fail at something just makes him more impressive when he succeeds. Makes him more real.

People bought into hype. The fact is he LOST to both Mace and Yoda because they are better at what they do.

Plus the movie is about ANAKIN. His choices and his actions. If he had done what he should have, the galaxy would have been safe. If Sid's had been pretending, Anakin is reduced to just a bystander. The focus of the story would not be on him.

ya he was faking he could of killed mace which he did with the help of anikan

With Anakin's help yes. By himself, he was owned.

Originally posted by Fishy
I've read it, but your entire theory depends on one thing.

Palps looking weak when Anakin would walk in, I can accept that, if it had any basis in the movie that is.

Lets just put some facts in a row

Yoda and Palpatine are about equal in force powers, Yoda slightly superior as seen in the movie and Yoda still tried using a lightsaber to finish Sidious. He left when his lightsaber was gone because he knew he couldn't win anymore.

Yoda fought Dooku and continued fighting with his lightsaber because he knew he could not win with the force alone, meaning lightsabers are needed in a duel against somebody with a great control of the force.

Obi managed to block Dooku his lightning with his lightsaber, it was weaker then Sids his lightning but Obi was a lot weaker then Mace too. Besides Dooku wasn't all that much weaker then Sidious.

Now when you look at that wouldn't it seem that you would need a lightsaber to fight against somebody that is more then a good Jedi? Wouldn't you think that as seen in the movies Mace can block Sidious his attacks? Don't you think that Sidious would need a lightsaber to defeat Mace? Sidious may be good but he is no god.

Tell me how come Sidious is so much more powerful then any of those people and would still say Anakin would surpass him soon, and why he would still try to run from Yoda? If he really has god like powers he has no reason to do or think so.

You don't need a light saber to kill someone WHEN YOU CAN THROW THEM OUT THE WINDOW WITH LIGHTENING!!! That's like saying I can't kill you by throwing you off a building, I have to use a gun. Thats retarded. MACE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS THROWN OUT THE WINDOW FROM THE FORCE. Thats a motherf'in' fact my friend. You can speculate about power all day long but all the air you waste still can't change that MACE IS DEAD because PALPS KILLED HIM.

I like how all of your "facts" are purely opinions that appear no where onscreen, where as I have broken down each moment of the fight to show how it was meant to have an effect on Anakin. So you think Palps wasn't supposed to look weak in front of Ani so he'd have to make a choice? Lets have a poll on that so you can see how SOOOOO totally off you are. That was ALL that scene depended on, it was THE SCENE when Ani finally turned to the Dark Side. You SERIOUSLY need to go watch the film again before I take anything you say seriously again. I mean man, you're sooo off on this its not even funny. You just keep spouting opinion with no screen evidence, where ALL of my analysis has been from what we can see, not what we can infer. You have no concept of debate, seeing as your whole arguement depends on someone accepting your evidence, which is ALL opinion, as fact.

FACT: Palps lost his saber.

FACT: Mace stood over him at the moment Ani walks in.

FACT: Anakin tries to convince Mace not to kill Palps.

FACT: Mace says hes gonna kill him.

FACT: Anakin stops that from happening.

FACT: Mace is then thrown from the window by lightening thrown from a clearly NOT DEFENSELESS Palpatine.

FACT: Anakin now agrees with Palpatine that the Jedi want to take over and joins the Dark Side.

This is very illogical ... relook at the movie carefully .... firstly to say that Palpatine was faking the fight because he KNEW Anakin was going to arrive and kill Mace is really really illogical ... because there are so many possibilities for things to get screwed up in this plan ... first of all, what if Anakin had arrived on the scene 60 seconds later than he did ?
It's unambiguously clear that Mace had defeated him .... he clearly and unambiguously had his lightsabre at a prostrate Palpatine's throat, and ALL of Palpatine's lightning wasn't enough to knock him off or make him retreat ... he took all that lightning and reflected it back ... now ... if at THIS moment Anakin wasn't there .... Palpatine would have been killed ... that is totally UNAMBIGUOUS .... to state that Palpatine wasn't using his full power is folly .... because he is depending on TWO factors that could go either way for or against him ... ONE : That Anakin arrives on time ... and TWO : He makes the decision to injure Mace Windu and stop him from finishing Palpatine off .... both these factors could go either way .... we definitely see Anakin's conflict inside himself ... he isn't totally ready to kill Mace until the very last second ... and even after he had injured Mace ... he still is filled with remorse ...

Palpatine's character is a master manipulator like a clever chess player ... it would be folly to suggest that he would risk the success of his whole scheme on two factors that could as easily go against him as for him ... the fact of the matter is ... like Chilled Monkey said ... this movie is about Anakin's choices .... if his choice had been the opposite to what he actually does in the story ... than it is quite UNAMBIGUOUS in the movie that Palpatine would have been killed by Mace Windu at that moment ... there is no doubt that he was defeated and bested by Windu and only survived that moment because of Anakin's turn to the dark side ... that in fact is the central theme of this whole 6 part movie series ... to miss this is to miss the main point. To not understand and accept that it was Anakin's decision at that last moment before Sidious was about to be sliced in half by Windu ... that ultimately sealed the fate of the Jedi is to miss the point of the whole STAR WARS series and the prequel trilogy .... it's not about Darth Sidious being invincible and the most powerful ... because that is simply not true ... it is about the corruption of Anakin Skywalker and his wrong choices, that leads to the extermination of the Jedi, who are essentially betrayed by him ... and the beginnings of the reign of the darkside in the galaxy ... this is the point of the whole tale .... but to fail to see that Mace Windu was clearly superior to Darth Sidious and had him beaten is to be blind ... Also ... there was no doubt that Yoda was superior to Darth Sidious in their duel .... just barely superior no doubt ... but definitely superior ... again there is no doubt that the only reason that Darth Sidious did not take the pains to continue the fight with Yoda was because it was clearly apparent, that had the duel continued .... he would have sooner or later been defeated and killed by Yoda. I think Lucas has made both these aspects very clear .... because he himself is very clear on this point ... THE DARK SIDE IS NOT MORE POWERFUL ... IT IS VERY POWERFUL NO DOUBT ... BUT IT IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN THE LIGHT SIDE ... AND THEREFORE THE MOST POWERFUL AND ENLIGHTENED JEDIS ( IN THIS CASE MACE WINDU AND YODA ) WILL ALWAYS BE MORE POWERFUL THAN THE SITH IN SINGLE COMBAT .... and Lucas makes this very clear in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, when Yoda is teaching Luke. And I think he has made this clear in this movie as well quite unambiguously ... Mace Windu was more powerful than Darth Sidious ... and had him defeated and helpless ... he lost not because of Sidious's superiority, but because he was caught off guard by Anakin ... and because he never expected Anakin to betray him .... similarly ... Yoda failed to kill the sith lord not because of the sith's superiority ... but because of the unnatural way and circumstances in which that battle was cut short .... Darth Sidious was clearly shown to throw everything he had at Yoda ... and all of it wasn't enough ... Yoda took it all and gave it back to him worse than he got ... I can't believe that as UNAMBIGUOUS as all of this is on screen, there is any kind of debate on this issue.

I dont this this will ever end until Lucas himself clears it up himself. As mentioned, Palpatine was depending on factors such as Anakin being there on time, and making the decision.

If Anakin wasn't there on time or made the decision of helping Mace, Palpatine then could have put his full power into it (assuming he was faking it).

according to an EP3 magazine, he was struggling to intensify his power as Mace moved closer to Palpatine. Therefore, he wasn;t faking it.

i thought this was the place i shoulda posted it first...but i couldnt be buggered finding the thread

"Mace pushes Palpatine out to the edge of the ledge, and as the Jedi moves closer, the bolts of lightning begin to arch back towards the Sith Lord. Palpatine's face begins to twist and distort, and his eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers."

lol, I hope people believe you so it could be cleared up

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
You don't need a light saber to kill someone WHEN YOU CAN THROW THEM OUT THE WINDOW WITH LIGHTENING!!! That's like saying I can't kill you by throwing you off a building, I have to use a gun. Thats retarded. MACE DIED BECAUSE HE WAS THROWN OUT THE WINDOW FROM THE FORCE. Thats a motherf'in' fact my friend. You can speculate about power all day long but all the air you waste still can't change that MACE IS DEAD because PALPS KILLED HIM.

I like how all of your "facts" are purely opinions that appear no where onscreen, where as I have broken down each moment of the fight to show how it was meant to have an effect on Anakin. So you think Palps wasn't supposed to look weak in front of Ani so he'd have to make a choice? Lets have a poll on that so you can see how SOOOOO totally off you are. That was ALL that scene depended on, it was THE SCENE when Ani finally turned to the Dark Side. You SERIOUSLY need to go watch the film again before I take anything you say seriously again. I mean man, you're sooo off on this its not even funny. You just keep spouting opinion with no screen evidence, where ALL of my analysis has been from what we can see, not what we can infer. You have no concept of debate, seeing as your whole arguement depends on someone accepting your evidence, which is ALL opinion, as fact.


You didn't even read my Yoda Dooku statement did you?

And I find your so called facts and my oppinions funniest of all. We have never seen Palp win from Mace, except for in theory's. But we have seen Mace win from Palps on screen. How come what I say is a theory and what you say is reality... Think for one time and realise that Palpatine could not have pushed Mace out of the window as long as Mace could block his lightning with his lightsaber. Palpatine was screwed if it were not for Anakin.

And you are making it sound like this movie revolves around Palpatine, it does not its all about Anakin. Everything is about Anakin his fall and his redemption. Palpatine lost, Anakin saved him. Anakin destroyed the light side and saved the dark side. Thats what the entire movie is about.

wow. so mace getting thrown from a window and dying because Palps threw him doesn't mean Palps won? You've got a screw loose. And I read all that Yoda/Dooku stuff, I just don't see how its relevant to this. The argument here is whether or not Mace beat Palps.

FACT: Mace is pushed out of a window by Palpatine's lightening.

Thats right there on film. If you maybe got up to go to the bathroom there then okay, but if you're simply denying it, you need a straight jacket.

Originally posted by Fishy
Palpatine was screwed if it were not for Anakin.

And you are making it sound like this movie revolves around Palpatine, it does not its all about Anakin. Everything is about Anakin his fall and his redemption. Palpatine lost, Anakin saved him. Anakin destroyed the light side and saved the dark side. Thats what the entire movie is about.

Palpatine needed Ani to believe Ani was being helpful because once Ani reached the point where he would help Palps against another mentor (Mace), then that would mean Palps had him. And I agree, everything in these films IS about Ani's fall and redemption. But the Redemption doesn't happen until the end of ROTJ where Vader is forced to make another choice, only this time between Palps and Luke. In this movie though, we see how Ani was warped and confused by Palps, and made to think things that were not true. Lucas himself has stated that many times. And Ani HELPED destroy the light, but he didn't do it alone. Palps is his new master, Plaps is the one that gives him orders. Ani is a pawn in this film. That is the point. Lucas has said, he sees Vader as a much more pathetic person because of the fact that all of his turning, all of the things Ani justifies to himself are based on the lies that Palpatine has told him. Palpatine warped his view, he had been working on it since he met Ani at a very young age. The final act of Palps plan to turn Ani revolve around turning Ani against the Jedi. How does he do that? By convincing Ani that they are murders out looking for power and they plan to take over the Senate. Palps starts working on Ani on this idea during the Opera scene, then he sets up a scene for Ani to see: The head of the Jedi council, Mace Windu, about to kill Palps, Ani's friend and mentor. Seeing this gives Ani a choice, as mirrored in ROTJ, save the Jedi, or help the Sith. In ROTS, he chooses poorly and picks the Sith. He cuts off Mace's arm shouting 'no I need him'. Now at that moment, Palps has Ani's trust and loyatly, the test is over, and the pieces are no longer needed. So Palpatine springs up and throws Mace out the window. He names Lord Vader and reasures Ani that he has done right. Ani is now a loyal slave to the dark side.

Ani's fall is also mirrored in the fall of the Senate to an Empire. Just as Ani's death at the end of ROTJ happens as the Empire falls. Its all metaphor and similie. The Senate has been carefully manipulated, made to see things that Palpatine wants them to see, just as Ani has been carefully manipulated, and made to see things that Palpatine wants him to see.

Another point that seems to get neglected here I just thought should be thrown out into this.

"Remember Obi-wan, if the prophecy is true, your padawan is the only person who can bring the Force back into balance" Mace to Obi-wan in AOTC.

Anakin is the only one who can defeat the Stih. Not Obi-wan, not Yoda, not Mace. ANAKIN. And he does just that at the end of ROTJ. So until Ani decided to destroy the Sith, it wasn't gonna happen, because HE was the Chosen ONE. So no matter how good the others are, only Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
wow. so mace getting thrown from a window and dying because Palps threw him doesn't mean Palps won? You've got a screw loose. And I read all that Yoda/Dooku stuff, I just don't see how its relevant to this. The argument here is whether or not Mace beat Palps.

FACT: Mace is pushed out of a window by Palpatine's lightening.

Thats right there on film. If you maybe got up to go to the bathroom there then okay, but if you're simply denying it, you need a straight jacket.

Yeah palps threw him out of the window, after Anakin defeated him. And I never said it was a dying Palps.

When he is on the ground there lying screaming in pain he's probably faking it. Knowing that he will die if he doesn't and that maybe he can push Anakin to make a quick decision or get mace over confident. However he could not have defeated Mace at that time. He wasn't as weak as he told Anakin he was but he wasn't powerful enough to defeat Mace.

That Yoda statement is very important becuase it shows that the force alone is not enough you need a Lightsaber to beat a powerful Jedi or Sith in a one on one fight. Mace won from Palpatine in the one on one fight, Anakin ended his life.

About your other two points, Palpatine was the master he planned it all, but he did not plan to be defeated by Mace and or Yoda...

Your chosen one statement makes no sense.. Anakin did defeat the Sith, every single last one of them except for Maul. I never said Mace ended the rule of the Sith, I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight. He could have killled him if it was not for the OT.. Yoda could have done so if it wasn't for the OT. Palpatine wasn't immortal and he wasn't all powerful he was good and smart but nothing more. You are saying Palpatine could not be defeated because Anakin had to do it? Thats crap, Anakin had to kill him according to the prophecy, that both Mace and Yoda have doubts about, and apparently Palps too otherwise he wouldn't have taken Anakin as his apprentice.

A prophecy that could have been misread, so that leaves us with what? Absolutly nothing but the fact that Mace and Yoda did not kill Palpatine but could have. Hitler didn't conquer Moscow, but every historian agrees he could have. Only then Winter showed up and Hitler failed.

Like Mace, could defeat Palps but then Anakin showed up and stopped his little plan.

yeah he was clearly faking it.. thats what the sly look out of the corner of his eyes towards anakin was all about, in case you missed it.

Originally posted by Fishy
That Yoda statement is very important becuase it shows that the force alone is not enough you need a Lightsaber to beat a powerful Jedi or Sith in a one on one fight. Mace won from Palpatine in the one on one fight, Anakin ended his life.

Where is that on film? it is all your speculation. Mace, a powerful Jedi, is defeated when he is thrown out a window. Sidious, a powerful Sith, is defeated when he is thrown down a reactor shaft by Vader. So apparently, you only need to kill someone to defeat them. The only thing that scene in AOTC means is that Dooku and Yoda had to face each other with sabers BECAUSE they were to balanced in powers in the force. this is a different fight with entirely different circumstances.

Anakin didn't end Mace's life...man you're confused. He just cut off his hand.

Originally posted by Fishy
Your chosen one statement makes no sense.. Anakin did defeat the Sith, every single last one of them except for Maul.

this statement alone proves you have no understanding of what you speak. The Sith were ended when Anakin killed Sidious. He brought an end to the Sith. There were two Sith at the time, Vader and Sidious. After Vader turned back to Anakin and killed Sidious, there were no more Sith. That is what the prophecy said would happen, the Chosen One would destroy the Sith. And that is precisely what he did. Lucas himself has said this. You need to take a step back and realize what it is you are saying. If you don't think Anakin killed off the Sith, you have issues.

Originally posted by Fishy
I never said Mace ended the rule of the Sith, I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight.

That's good chief, cause I never said anything about Mace ending the Sith either...
clearly your thoughts on this matter are unclear as that is about the hundreth time you've misinterpreted me.

Originally posted by Fishy
I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight. He could have killled him if it was not for the OT.. Yoda could have done so if it wasn't for the OT. Palpatine wasn't immortal and he wasn't all powerful he was good and smart but nothing more. You are saying Palpatine could not be defeated because Anakin had to do it? Thats crap, Anakin had to kill him according to the prophecy, that both Mace and Yoda have doubts about, and apparently Palps too otherwise he wouldn't have taken Anakin as his apprentice.

A prophecy that could have been misread, so that leaves us with what? Absolutly nothing but the fact that Mace and Yoda did not kill Palpatine but could have. Hitler didn't conquer Moscow, but every historian agrees he could have. Only then Winter showed up and Hitler failed.

Like Mace, could defeat Palps but then Anakin showed up and stopped his little plan.

Firstly, you're second paragraph is fundamentaly flawed because it directly contradicts what George himself has said. perhaps when you watch them in order, this will become clear to you.

Now for your first point here, in a fair fight, perhaps Mace could have defeated Sidious. But that was not a fair fight. It was another piece of a carefully put together puzzle. And yes, only Anakin can kill Palpatine because that is what the prophecy (and George Lucas) have said, and CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED in the end of ROTJ when Anakin killed Sidious. You have seen ROTJ right? you remember when Anakin through that old guy in the robe down a shaft? Yeah...that was Palpatine, being killed by Anakin, full filling the prophecy. If you don't understand the prophecy, as anyone on here as they will be glad to explain it to you, as I have.

We are not debatting about who killed Palpatine, its clear that Anakin was the only one.. We are debating if Mace defeated him or not, and he did defeat him. Defeating and killing are two different things.

Did Mace kick away Palp his lightsaber? Yes
Did he defeat him? Yes
Did he block Palpatine his force lightning attack: yes
Did he die? yes
Did he die because of Anakin? yes
Did Palpatine finish him? Yes

Yeah Palp killed him, yeah Mace did not kill Palpatine but he beat him

your third "fact" is opinion. Fights are not over until they are over. And it was over when the threat went away, i.e. when palps through mace out the windu. you're arguement is completely based on semantics. And if it was clear that Ani was the only one who can kill palps, why did you say I say I was wrong for saying so earlier? you logic is so sporatic you seem to say things you later contradict. Not great debate skills let me tell you.

I'm not contradicting myself i'm saying Mace beat Palps, i'm not saying he killed him, i never did...

not about that no. but through out this arguement you've said things in your arguments that you later contradict.

but earlier you said, " I said he defeated Palpatine in a fair fight. He could have killled him if it was not for the OT.. Yoda could have done so if it wasn't for the OT. Palpatine wasn't immortal and he wasn't all powerful he was good and smart but nothing more. You are saying Palpatine could not be defeated because Anakin had to do it? Thats crap, Anakin had to kill him according to the prophecy, that both Mace and Yoda have doubts about, and apparently Palps too otherwise he wouldn't have taken Anakin as his apprentice.

A prophecy that could have been misread, so that leaves us with what? Absolutly nothing but the fact that Mace and Yoda did not kill Palpatine but could have."

if not for the OT? that's hilarious... any way, then later you say,"We are not debatting about who killed Palpatine, its clear that Anakin was the only one."

Which seems to mean that you do understand the prophecy, when in the first quote you clearly do not. Because on screen, we know the prophecy is true because Ani kills the Sith in ROTJ.

But what is this if not for the OT crap? its all one story, so basically you're saying if Lucas didn't write the whole story then Mace could win in you're little happy fantasy world?

Look, here's the point: In TPM, Obi-wan is hanging in a reactor shaft which Maul pushed him into. Maul now stands triumphantly over him. So by your logic, Maul just won the saber fight. So that would mean Maul won the fight over all right? Wrong. Because Obi-wan then springs up and cuts Maul in half. The same situation happens in the Mace/Palps fight. Palps is the one on the ropes, as Obi-wan was in TPM, with Mace standing triumphantly over him ready to finish the job, like Maul in TPM, then Palps springs up and kills Mace, like Obi did in TPM. So what does this prove? Fights aren't over until somebody drops dead. You're can say, Mace seemed to have the upper hand at THAT POINT in the fight. But he did NOT WIN because the fight WASN"T OVER. So you can claim Mace won all you want, but who is dead and who is alive at the end of the movie? That's right, Palpatine, not Mace. ROTS is all about the bad guys winning. Do they win fair and square? no. That's why they're the bad guys, but they do win, and they keep on winning until ROTJ. Sorry buddy, that's the way it is.

Ya'll are going around in circles people .... Mace Windu defeated Palpatine .... in fact, it's kind of funny .... because even after Palpatine tried to use the lightening on Mace Windu , and failed because Windu was powerful enough to withstand the lightening and send it back to Palpatine, it's totally obvious on screen, that the lightening was Palpatine's last trump card, and that it had failed ... he was lying their beaten and defeated and a hairbreadth away from certain destruction at the point of Windu's sabre .... his only hope at that point was to play weak and victimised in front of Anakin, and also hope that the promise ( false of course ) that he had given Anakin, that he could teach Anakin to save his dear ones using the power of the darkside, and that he was the ONLY one who could show Anakin that .... that these things would combine to turn Anakin to the darkside, and that Anakin would save him from Windu ... that was the reason he played weak and victimised .... because that was his only hope of escaping death ... that aside .... man !!! how can you guys even be sitting here debating this .... Windu beat him inspite of him trying everything that he knew or had up his sleeve .... THE DARKSIDE IS NOT THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE .... THE LIGHT SIDE IS .... AND MACE WINDU IS AN EXTREMELY POWERFUL JEDI, PERHAPS SECOND ONLY TO MASTER YODA ... AND DARTH SIDIOUS WITH ALL HIS DARK POWERS DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH TO ESCAPE DEFEAT AT THE HANDS OF MACE WINDU .... IF IT WASN'T FOR ANAKIN'S INTERFERENCE AT THE LAST MOMENT, DARTH SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED BY MACE WINDU.... HOW MUCH MORE UNAMBIGUOUS CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE THAN IT ALREADY IS IN THE MOVIE ???

So you are admitting that Mace is superior to Palpatine?

Of course Mace is dead and Palpatine isn't, otherwise the OT would be contradicted and it wouldn't make sense anymore.. You are talking about the movies now, i'm talking about the fact that Mace was superior to Palpatine as was Yoda.

Palpatine was not as good as those two, yes he survived both attempts, but I can hardly say he won.

Its like saying America won WWII... They helped yes, but they did not win the war.

Was the whole thing a setup on Sidious' part? Yes.
Did sidious underestimate Mace? Yes.
Is Mace a better swordsman than Sidious? Yes.
Did Sidious anticipate Anakin's coming? Yes.
Did Sidious ham up his "I'm too weak" performance for Anakin's benefit? Yes
Would Sidious have been killed by Mace if not for Anakin's arrival? Yes.
Is Sidious, in swordsmanship and force power combined, more powerful than Mace? Yes
Did Sidious learn a lesson or two about underestimating the most powerful of the Jedi, as evidenced by his attempt to flee from Yoda? Yes.


There. Debate ended. Both sides were partially right. The whole thing was orchestrated by Sidious, but he miscalculated one crucial point, just as in ROTJ. Therein is the symbolic parallel, that Anakin saved him from one miscalculation, and doomed him in another. That's the duality of Anakin's character, and those are the exact moments of his immersion in and rebirth from the dark side.

Can this debate end now?

And it would be more like saying France or England won WWII. They were on the victorious side, but if not for some serious outside circumstances tilting things drastically in their favor (i.e. America/Anakin/squade of clone troopers), things would have been drastically different, as evidenced by how things were going before those circumstances came about.

yes he did just to make anakin think the jedi's were turning against them

Sidious/Palpatine has become perhaps my all time favorite SW character. So, I believe he knew all along that Anakin was going to intervene. Besides, Palpatine pretended he was weak and as soon as Ani lopped off Mace's arm, he struck him with the Force lightning. Hey, I'm biased being a "Palpy" fan.

Originally posted by Fishy
So you are admitting that Mace is superior to Palpatine?

nope. Sidious is far more powerful, equal to Yoda, who is tougher than Mace, but definetly Mace is weaker than Sidious because he had nothing for that lightening, out the window he went. Dead splat goodbye. Sorry man, cry about it all you want, palps killed Mace, so he's superior. The whole fight was a set up, Palps faked the loss so he'd be in a vunerable position when Ani arrived. Then he killed Mace. End of story.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
nope. Sidious is far more powerful, equal to Yoda, who is tougher than Mace, but definetly Mace is weaker than Sidious because he had nothing for that lightening, out the window he went. Dead splat goodbye. Sorry man, cry about it all you want, palps killed Mace, so he's superior. The whole fight was a set up, Palps faked the loss so he'd be in a vunerable position when Ani arrived. Then he killed Mace. End of story. well said.

Mace is far inferior... didn't you hear him scream like a little girl when his hand got cut off? pussy

Originally posted by mtryder
Was the whole thing a setup on Sidious' part? Yes.
Did sidious underestimate Mace? Yes.
Is Mace a better swordsman than Sidious? Yes.
Did Sidious anticipate Anakin's coming? Yes.
Did Sidious ham up his "I'm too weak" performance for Anakin's benefit? Yes
Would Sidious have been killed by Mace if not for Anakin's arrival? Yes.
Is Sidious, in swordsmanship and force power combined, more powerful than Mace? Yes
Did Sidious learn a lesson or two about underestimating the most powerful of the Jedi, as evidenced by his attempt to flee from Yoda? Yes.


There. Debate ended. Both sides were partially right. The whole thing was orchestrated by Sidious, but he miscalculated one crucial point, just as in ROTJ. Therein is the symbolic parallel, that Anakin saved him from one miscalculation, and doomed him in another. That's the duality of Anakin's character, and those are the exact moments of his immersion in and rebirth from the dark side.

Can this debate end now?

best post so far...

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
well said.

Mace is far inferior... didn't you hear him scream like a little girl when his hand got cut off? pussy

yeah because losing limbs is an everyday thing...

Dooku didn't make a sound when both of his were cut off... the Jedi are weak.

RBellaFan: That's fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

However I think that mtryder summed it up perfectly. The thing is it shows Palpatine's intelligence and his ability to turn things to his advantage. However, he NEEDED Anakin since that's who the movie is about. He lost the one-on-one fight and if Anakin hadn't shown up he'd have died.

If we took the view that he didn't need Anakin and could have won the fight on his own merits, Anakin's part is dimininished.

Plus, showing Palpatine as fallible makes him a more human and interesting character.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Dooku didn't make a sound when both of his were cut off... the Jedi are weak.

try getting your hand cut off and see what happens... and remember, mace had some lightning thrown at him for good measure... just cos he kicked palps' ass...

Haha, I'd rather not... but Mace was prissy screaming before he got the lightning... I just found it funny is all. That he's such a baby.

Mace did not kick Palps's arse... Palpatine owns.

But, I guess you can tell from my sig that my opinion is biased

The thing about screaming is he was more shocked than in pain.

If a fellow jedi cut your hand off to save a "Sith Lord" would you be a little surprized?

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Haha, I'd rather not... but Mace was prissy screaming before he got the lightning... I just found it funny is all. That he's such a baby.

Mace did not kick Palps's arse... Palpatine owns.

But, I guess you can tell from my sig that my opinion is biased



i've watched that scene a few times... palps is betting that anakins love for padme will make him go against the jedi, and thats what swings it... without that bargaining chip palps is screwed...

Originally posted by pr1983


i've watched that scene a few times... palps is betting that anakins love for padme will make him go against the jedi, and thats what swings it... without that bargaining chip palps is screwed... indeed... but Palps knew Anakin's love would turn him, or at least be strong enough for Anakin to save Palpatine's life in order to gain the power to save the one he loves.

Originally posted by Darth MoonPIE
The thing about screaming is he was more shocked than in pain.

If a fellow jedi cut your hand off to save a "Sith Lord" would you be a little surprized? yeah, but still... he didn't need to cry like a baby

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
indeed... but Palps knew Anakin's love would turn him, or at least be strong enough for Anakin to save Palpatine's life in order to gain the power to save the one he loves.

yeah, but still... he didn't need to cry like a baby

he expected it to yes, but as intelligent as he is he could have easily killed mace and made it look like self defence, but he didnt, because mace was too good a swordsman...

the thing that gives mace his edge is his physical prescence... he has the technique and the physical advantage over the likes of palps who is older and a less skilled swordsman (yet easily more powerful force wise)...

But Palpatine needed to get into that situation with Windu in order to make Anakin make a quick decision, Palpatine knowing that that decision would be to join him.

I do think though that Palpatine underestimated Windu, but he could have killed him at any time...

in my opinion anyway

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
But Palpatine needed to get into that situation with Windu in order to make Anakin make a quick decision, Palpatine knowing that that decision would be to join him.

I do think though that Palpatine underestimated Windu, but he could have killed him at any time...

in my opinion anyway

i totally understand... but i think it cheapens maces reputation as a jedi... also not forgetting that palps did kill 3 jedi... mace came to arrest palpatine, not kill him. he only tried to do so after palps had used the lightning...

ive watched the fight over and over, and i do believe in the fight itself mace was superior... palps was faking the damage from the lightning, but before that i definately thought mace had the upper hand...

Originally posted by pr1983
i totally understand... but i think it cheapens maces reputation as a jedi... also not forgetting that palps did kill 3 jedi... mace came to arrest palpatine, not kill him. he only tried to do so after palps had used the lightning...

ive watched the fight over and over, and i do believe in the fight itself mace was superior... palps was faking the damage from the lightning, but before that i definately thought mace had the upper hand... It does cheapen Mace's reputation which is why I like it so much. I don't like Mace. But then the scream really cheapens his reputation, so maybe it is intentional? Mace has always been the cynical one, in this film he finally gets what's coming to him...

Palps did kill three Jedi with ease which leads me to believe even more that he was faking with Mace... the others can't have been that bad.

I've only seen it twice, so perhaps you do have more light on this than me...

But from what I remember, if I'm being honest, there is really nothing in the fight to suggest that either Palps was faking or that Mace had the upper hand. Except Palpatine's weird faces seem to make it out that he's at least partially toying with Mace.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
It does cheapen Mace's reputation which is why I like it so much. I don't like Mace. But then the scream really cheapens his reputation, so maybe it is intentional? Mace has always been the cynical one, in this film he finally gets what's coming to him...

Palps did kill three Jedi with ease which leads me to believe even more that he was faking with Mace... the others can't have been that bad.

I've only seen it twice, so perhaps you do have more light on this than me...

But from what I remember, if I'm being honest, there is really nothing in the fight to suggest that either Palps was faking or that Mace had the upper hand. Except Palpatine's weird faces seem to make it out that he's at least partially toying with Mace.

when palps was using the lightning, he was definately faking, no question, but during the saber fight i honestly saw nothing to suggest mace was holding back either...

and yes, i think most jedi are that bad, remember mace has a very high reputation as a swordsman...

Originally posted by pr1983
when palps was using the lightning, he was definately faking, no question, but during the saber fight i honestly saw nothing to suggest mace was holding back either...

and yes, i think most jedi are that bad, remember mace has a very high reputation as a swordsman...
Really, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree

No, there wasn't anything to suggest either of them was holding back. I just refuse to believe Windu is stronger than Palpatine. Palpatine obviously knew he could take Windu otherwise he wouldn't have let Anakin go and tell him. I believe Palpatine foresaw all of it. Wether or not he was faking during the fight... he knew what would happen. He knew Anakin would come, so he knew he needed to be in a position of defeat and inferiority.

As I keep saying, Palpatine LOST the fight. He has to lose to show that he needs Anakin. If he could have won on his own merits, he wouldn't need Anakin, so Anakin's role would be reduced.

Plus, as I keep saying, losing makes Palpatine more human and interesting.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Really, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree

No, there wasn't anything to suggest either of them was holding back. I just refuse to believe Windu is stronger than Palpatine. Palpatine obviously knew he could take Windu otherwise he wouldn't have let Anakin go and tell him. I believe Palpatine foresaw all of it. Wether or not he was faking during the fight... he knew what would happen. He knew Anakin would come, so he knew he needed to be in a position of defeat and inferiority.

force wise, palps is easily superior to mace... fighting skills, i still think mace has got it...

if he wanted to be in the position of inferiority, why did he kill the three jedi? wouldnt it have looked more effective if he had made it look like he was being bullied?

Originally posted by pr1983
if he wanted to be in the position of inferiority, why did he kill the three jedi? wouldnt it have looked more effective if he had made it look like he was being bullied?
nah, he needed to take out the other three... if he'd gone four against one he'd have been screwed... he needed to take them out early when they weren't expecting it.

I see what you're saying though.

I dunno...

ok, how about this:

Palpatine thought he'd be able to take Mace which is why he let Anakin tell the Jedi. But he underestimated Mace's ability. Palpatine could have beaten Mace using the Force but didn't because he needed Mace to turn Anakin. Palpatine was beaten by Mace when his saber was kicked from him which he didn't expect. Palpatine scrambles away knowing Anakin is coming. He acts weak in order to manipulate Anakin... blah, blah, you know the rest.

meh, I'll have to see it again... I'm still of the belief that Palpatine underestimates Mace but is partially toying with him and could have taken him out if he wanted.

I'm goin to bed now.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
nah, he needed to take out the other three... if he'd gone four against one he'd have been screwed... he needed to take them out early when they weren't expecting it.

I see what you're saying though.

I dunno...

ok, how about this:

Palpatine thought he'd be able to take Mace which is why he let Anakin tell the Jedi. But he underestimated Mace's ability. Palpatine could have beaten Mace using the Force but didn't because he needed Mace to turn Anakin. Palpatine was beaten by Mace when his saber was kicked from him which he didn't expect. Palpatine scrambles away knowing Anakin is coming. He acts weak in order to manipulate Anakin... blah, blah, you know the rest.

meh, I'll have to see it again... I'm still of the belief that Palpatine underestimates Mace but is partially toying with him and could have taken him out if he wanted.

I'm goin to bed now.

almost, you've almost got it...

I'd say that Palpatine only attacked the Jedi so that Mace would want to kill him in the end. If Anakin would have come earlier and seen that the Jedi only came to arrest the chancellor and that Sidious was the one that first attacked, then Anakin wouldn't have turned dark side because he only wanted palpatine to not be killed. When Anakin enters the office he only sees a man without weapon being threatened by a jedi with lightsaber. If Anakin would have seen anything of the fight he would have sided with Mace. So I think that Palpatine faked most of the fight, because he forsaw most of that, what was going to happen. I voted that he didn't fake but I would change my vote.

he faked some of it. like the part when he was down and using the lightning and after his "disfiguration". you can tell by his eyes.

I agree he was faking that, but he wasn't faking the rest of the time

obi-wan, you lie! you said this thread would end this debate but now it looks as if its going to span for another 20 pages.

Sidious defeats mace WITH the assistance of Anikan. Anything else said is just pure speculation.

With that said
Sidious is not the type of man to take risks. He either knew he could defeat Mace and the other jedis or knew that Anakin would step in. He might of came close to defeat, Mace sure looked like he had the upper-hand. Maybe Sidious is just too smart, too strong in the force or just plain lucky (dark side destined to win this one?) in the long wrong Mace still gets singed.

Sith he was so faking he could kill Mace if he tried but he can't kill Yoda and Mace are not eaqual in strength theirs a diffrenc by a lot of years and Sith new Anikan was coming he can sence his presence like in the secound movie Yoda sensed Anikan was in pain when his mom died and Yoda didn't run why would he run he came right to the Chancellor his own will Chancellor tried to run he couldn't risk dying either could Yoda Yoda left at the end sure because he lost his light saber and his cloak he was to vanurble he can't risk dying with out weapon he needs to train Luke in episode 4 duh so yeah

Originally posted by jerlark386
obi-wan, you lie! you said this thread would end this debate but now it looks as if its going to span for another 20 pages.

Sidious defeats mace WITH the assistance of Anikan. Anything else said is just pure speculation.

With that said
Sidious is not the type of man to take risks. He either knew he could defeat Mace and the other jedis or knew that Anakin would step in. He might of came close to defeat, Mace sure looked like he had the upper-hand. Maybe Sidious is just too smart, too strong in the force or just plain lucky (dark side destined to win this one?) in the long wrong Mace still gets singed.

very very good point.

Too smart, says I.

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

yes, he was faking.