Big Plot Hole...Why wasn't the secret of who was Sifo-Dyas never revealed in ROTS?

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Anakin_the_Hutt
This was a thing that kept me wondering...just who in the hell was it who first ordered the clone army?? It was such a thing in AOTC and in ROTS they just tossed the whole issue aside.

yerssot
that's not a plot hole at all, there was no need to get it answered

anyway, read Labyrinth of Evil...I think... it's explained there

Anakin_the_Hutt
I mean, was it Mace? Was it Dooku? I mean, AOTC left me wondering - but then in ROTS, it had zero mention of who deleted the location of Kamino and who placed the order. To me that's a big plot hole, man.

I STILL would like to know just who in the hell did it!

yerssot
like said: read the book, it's explained there

The Ones
sifa dias was a real person.

Anakin_the_Hutt
Who really ordered the Clone Army? Didn't Obi-Wan say he died before the army was ordered?

LandoSpeeder2
Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army, this was explained in the ROTS visual dictionary.

Anakin_the_Hutt
I thought they said he died beofre the army was ordered. Did he also deleted the location of Kamino? Who was this guy, just some rogue Jedi working for Sidious?

Anakin_the_Hutt
I dunno, to me this is a huge plot hole. The person who ordered the clones was a mystery in EP 2. You'd figure they reveal who the scoundrel was.

The Ones
he said he died about 10 years ago because he wasnt sure who he was talking about so he made a random excuse

DeVi| D0do
How many times must we go through this?

SIFO DYAS IS SIFO DYAS!

deaconbluez
It is implied that Dooku joined Sidious while he was still a Jedi Master. But before Dooku told the council he was leaving, Sidious had him (1) Assume the identity of a dead Jedi (Dyas) and go to Kamino and order a clone army, then (2) erase the record of Kamino from the Jedi files/archives.

That wraps everything up.

Darth_Sidious01
No...*sigh* wrong....Dooku as he was leaving the Order was recruited by Sidious..before Dooku left the Order Sifo-Dyas, a friend of Dooku's, had a bad feeling that the Republic would be in trouble in the future particularly war, hence he went to Kamino and ordered the Clone Army for the Republic....Sidious and Dooku found out about this and for a final initiation into the Sith, Sidious commanded Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas since he was beginning to sense that the Sith were returning. Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas after he had already ordered the Clone Army, making Dooku a fully flegdged Sith, and new apprentice to Darth Sidious. Sidious told Dooku to not worry about the Army, that it would "come to use in the future" but not now.

deaconbluez
You're not seeing the full force of Palpatine's plan. He NEEDED a clone army and knew it ahead of time. Dyas had no motivation to order an army. He stayed true to the order and the council until he died.

Sidious on the other hand, knew that in order to take control of the Senate more fully, he would have to have an army to fight his war. But it could not be traced back to him. Dooku presented himself as Sifo Dyas (he was a Jedi anyway) to the Kaminoans and ordered the army.

Sidious knew that it would be discovered and be traced back...but you can't ask a dead Jedi questions, so his Sith identity remained safe.

Darth_Sidious01
dude.....have you READ Labyrinth of Evil? It explains it in exact literal words what happened

deaconbluez
Thats EU, right?

DeVi| D0do
Yes, therefore not canon.

yerssot
yes, but it is the only source coming close to explaining who did it

Darth_Sidious01
exactly my point ^
Is this EU not closer to canon than a person's perspective, although intelligent as it may be, it cannot deny the simple fact that this EU source is just a little bit closer to canon

deaconbluez
I would like to check out the book when I get a chance. Its nice to see things like this explained further.

I just try to get to a conclusion based on what is conveyed in the films.

Darth_Sidious01
aye and that is very respectable..i myself thought Dooku ordered the clones..i even though Sifo-Dyas was Sidious himself cause of the name similarity believe it or not..it IS an interesting read this book is...i'd check it out if me was you

Anakin_the_Hutt
My point is that you CANNOT get a conclusion from watching the films. That whole issue was just forgotten for whatever reason...but it leaves a huge plot hole that I know alot of people were actually interested in finding out the truth of the army when they first watched AOTC.

yerssot
forgooten for whatever reason? there was no reason to explain it, it wasn't needed in the movie, simple as that

Anakin_the_Hutt
I had always felt that it was Mace Windu who ordered the clones. He just seemed really shady in ATOC. Especially when he hears of the army.

Anakin_the_Hutt
It may NOT BE an important plot point, but you can't deny the fact that IT IS a plot hole. I just think they should've revealed who it was exactly who ordered the clones....instead of leaving it all ambiguous to a person watching all the movies in order without knowing all the EU.

kenobi2004
I think it's not plot hole.....i think GL will reveal about this jedi\sith identity in the next book which will be published next,,,it's actually good way to make people still want to buy the books even after the saga is completed

Creechuur
I hate to break it to you canon-ites, but it seems as though Lucas is using so-called 'EU' stuff to explain more and more about the whole story he's attempting to tell. Labrynth of Evil and the Clone Wars cartoon have a lot of important info. I would say these two expanded universe stories are pretty much canon.

I totally understand what Anakin the Hutt is saying. If I hadnt read Labrynth, I would be crying "plot hole" too, as far as completely ignoring the Sifo Dyas thing in the movie. Defend Lucas all you want, thats sloppy...either that or he intended for all us fans to read the book before seeing the movie.

mephistodesigns
From Labrynth of Evil:

Obi-Wan turned to face Yoda. "master, did Difo-Dyas order the clone army?'
Yoda nodded. "Contacted the Kaminoans, he did."
"Without your knowledge?"
"Without it yes. But exists, a record of his initial contact."
Obi-Wan gave in to some of his frustration. "I should have questioned Lama Su more extensively."
"Questioned, the Kaminoans were. Furnished much they did."
"Did they?" Obi-Wan said in surprise. "When?"
"Reticent they were when first to Kamino i went. Only what already they had told you, I heard. That Sifo-Dyas the order placed; that Tyranus the donor clone furnished. That for the Republic the clones were. Seen by the Kaminoans, neither Sifo-Dyas nor Tyranus was. But later, after attacked Kamino was, more I learned from Taun We and Ko Sai. About the payments."
"From Sifo-Dyas?"
"From Tyrannus."
"Could Tyrannus have been an alias for Sifo-Dyas? Could he have adopted the name to provide deniability for the jedi in case the clone army was discovered?"
"Wished for that I did. But killed Sifo-Dyas was, before on Kamino jango Fett arrived."
"Murdered?"
Yoda compressed his thin lips. "Unsolved the crime remains, but, yes: murdered."
"Someone knew," Obi-Wan said, more to himself. "Dooku?" he asked Yoda.
"A theory I have-nothing more. Murder, Dooku commited. Then, from the jedi archives erased Kamino, he did. Of that tampering, proof master Jocasta Nu found-proof of Dooku's action, though well concealed it was."

kremzike
Ok, I just got mad enough to stop reading this thread & just jump ahead and post.

#1. Please stop asking this question!

#2. As i've posted myself a few times & others have as well, Labyrinth Of Evil's plot points were all approved by Lucas because it was dealing with the events leading directly into ROTS. Darth_Sidious01's summary is 100% correct, irrefutable and official.

#3. There were plans to have Dooku be posing as Sifo Dyas after AOTC, but Lucas changed his mind.

Thank you for reading. I'm gonna try really hard to not click on any more of these Dooku/Sifo Dyas threads anymore for the rest of my life (and you know there'll be more) because they make me crazy! smile

supercybergeek
Oh great now we have to buy George Lucas books to figure out plot holes, what a tool!

DeVi| D0do
How the **** is it a plot hole?!? It doesn't even ****ing matter who the **** he is!

kremzike
Sorry. I clicked!

Yeah, it's not a plot hole, really, is it? It's just something that you don't know much about, but is explained in enough fact in the films. AOTC says that Sifo Dyas ordered the clones & was killed nearly 10 years ago. That's true. So, you know everything necessary from watching AOTC. Now, if you want extra details, then you can read books if you want, but it's not necessary. If Lucas had decided to use his idea of Sifo Dyas really being Dooku or whatever, then it would be a plot hole if it wasn't explained in the films. But that's not what happened, so there's nothing more anyone NEEDS to know. you may WANT to know more. That's when you seek out some EU and decide whether to believe it or not. I do maintain that Labyrinth Of Evil is the rare (and possibly only) exception to the EU is not canon rule. other books taking place during the times of the films, like Shadows of The Empire, can be accepted as true but are totally not necessary to enjoy the films. It's like Boba Fett. All we NEED to know about him is shown in the movies, but people who WANT to know more seek out the books. Sifo Dyas is virtually the same.

DeVi| D0do
Exactly. Well said.

tlbauerle
Hmm...maybe we need to define what a plot hole really is so these 13 year olds with STFU!

((The_Anomaly))
its not actually a 'plot hole' its just an unexplained event....

a plot hole is something that makes no sense, like leia knowing what her mother looks like and what shes like as a person, thats a plot hole.

this sifo-dyas thing is just unexplained...

the labyrinth of evil, while good, and well thought out, is still EU and thus not canon....

i personally think that dooku took the alias sifo-dyas after the real dyas was killed...(sure, maybe dooku killed him, thats cool by me)

this makes the whole ordering of the clone army seem more like its a huge part of palpatines plans to overthrow the republic...

thats what i think anyways..

supercybergeek
true, it's unexplained not a plot hole, but a plot hole and somthing important not explained is still very annoying.

DeVi| D0do
Why?

kremzike
Originally posted by supercybergeek
true, it's unexplained not a plot hole, but a plot hole and somthing important not explained is still very annoying.

It's not expanded upon, but it's explained enough. Master Sifo Dyas of the Jedi Council ordered the clones and was killed soon after. There ya go. That's all you need to know. That's all the explanation the story requires you to know. You want to know more because you thought there was more to it, but there's really not. But if more background is what you want, you're gonna have to read some books.

Note to self: Dammit, stop clicking this thread!!!

DeVi| D0do
So... Who do you think Sifo Dyas is?

My money's on Wicket...

El_NINO
I have to say that while they did mention in AOTC that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army and was killed 10 yrs ago, that is enough info that we need to know about him. BUT when they mention who deleted Kamino from the archives, thats the real plot hole. They never answer that in the last film, we never will know who did it.

For the record i shouldnt have to buy a book or go into EU to find out an answer to a movie, it should be explained in the movies. There are six of them and they all have plot holes. So what ever is said or seen in a film for me is what counts and not whats in a book.

Cybervader
true..they should have not left it out..i feel the whole Kamino Issue is very complicated and confusing..

gonch
Syfo Dias was a spanish Jedi. He was an addicted to tacos, and he died of indegestion.

And he's a real person...named Syfo Dias.

They should make a whole movie about him...

STAR WARS EPISODE 1.5 : ATTACK OF THE TACOS

I really don't care about who he was...Lucas needed someone to have ordered the creation of the Clone Army and he created Syfo Dias.

However, he could have told us a little more about him.

But I don't really think anyoe cared about him...

vader519
For the last time, it is in the Lyabrith of Evil book. You want to know who Syfo-Dias is read the book. IT is not an important plot in the movie at all. It has nothing to do with ROTS. If anything, it could have bee explained in the clone wars cartoon, since that is what the subject is all about.

darthmaul1
Can't you people make educated guesses? it's DOOKU as he is the one who hired Jango for the cloning and he was a jedi so he could erase the files.

vader476
i think darth maul was sifo daiyas
beacause he dies 10 years before AOTC
and count dokku is dooku's real name so it cant be him

melenor
i found the ansewer in books (forgot which one sry) but dooku deleated the record killed sfio and kept the clones and brought jango there acting as sifo padawan.ask and i will reval

melenor
and sifo was a true jedi that figured out palp plan and dooku. he followwed dooku to the works( place on coursant where sith base is) dooku made his first act as a sith was killing sifo. and dooku knew about maul he was a fluck that dooku used as a test subject againt the jedi

jgtch
ok guys, i cant believe that this "Sifo-Dyas" thing has gone on this long - but - "Sifo-Dyas" was Sidious. Period.
Darth Sidious = Palpatine = The Emperor ordered the creation of the clone army 10 years before AOTC knowing that he would use the force to control them and make them into his army of Stormtroopers. That said, Obi-Wan when he arrived on Kamino, didn't know about this army and when Lauma Su MISPRONOUNCED the name SIDIOUS, Ben went along with it in order to investigate this army and thought, in his mind, that Lauma Su was talking about Maul - which by the way they, Ben and Qui-Gon, didn't know that Maul was his name before Ben cut him in half.
No mystery - if you saw E3 you saw the Emperor make the Clone Troopers into Stormtroopers by Executing order 66 which HE made sure they were programed with when HE gave the order to create them!

jabbar
Originally posted by yerssot
like said: read the book, it's explained there

Why don't you just explain it, if you've already read it, you stupid baboon!

darthmaul1
Both Dooku and Sidious had a hand in creating the clones, Dooku had to be the one to erase the files and hire jango and sidious obviously said to place order 66 in there head, its pretty simple

Darth_Rankkor
Don't forget that Dooku's sith name was Darth Tyranus and jango says to ben that he was hired by some tyranus. I think dooku impersonated master jedi syfo dyas and ordered the creation of the clone army in behalf of Darth Sidious

matreid
Originally posted by Darth_Sidious01
No...*sigh* wrong....Dooku as he was leaving the Order was recruited by Sidious..before Dooku left the Order Sifo-Dyas, a friend of Dooku's, had a bad feeling that the Republic would be in trouble in the future particularly war, hence he went to Kamino and ordered the Clone Army for the Republic....Sidious and Dooku found out about this and for a final initiation into the Sith, Sidious commanded Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas since he was beginning to sense that the Sith were returning. Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas after he had already ordered the Clone Army, making Dooku a fully flegdged Sith, and new apprentice to Darth Sidious. Sidious told Dooku to not worry about the Army, that it would "come to use in the future" but not now.

I think that's about right wink

DenKi
yep then Dooku cept Sifo-Dyas's body and he used Sifo-Dyas's organs and blood for Grevious. (yeah i know EU)

Darth_Frobo
How bout sifo-dyas became darth plaguesis who stayed on the council clouded their vision while creating anakin and put the order in for the clones, before he could find a genetic template however he was murdered by sidious who then used dooku to find a genetic template? just a possibility

Baelyn
Ok, I Was reading this, and well....Whoever says Sifo Dyas isn't Sifo Dyas is completely wrong. Yes Labyrith is EU, but officially the Story Leading up to Episode III, so while it is EU, it is approved by LUCAS as the Pre-cursor to Episode III. So...Sifo Ordered Army, Dooku killed Sifo, Dooku because Tyrannus...end of story. Topic, Closed.

darthmaul1
Lucas does not give 2 shits about the EU, he approves the stories but, he does not follow them

DarkAge
On the AotC DVD Lucas comments that the whole Sifa Dyas/Kamino thing would be "explained in Episode III". So why the hell wasn't it?

DeVi| D0do
OBI-WAN: It appears the Chancellor is behind everything, including the war.

What more do you need?

Baelyn
Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
OBI-WAN: It appears the Chancellor is behind everything, including the war.

What more do you need?


Nothing

black robb
speaking of Sifo Dyas,how come they dont mention that Grievous was injected with his blood?

DeVi| D0do
Why would they? That's the most stupid thing I've heard!

DarkAge
What annoys me is that in order to understand half the stuff in any one of the movies one has to not only have seen all the others but also has to refer to the EU, which a lot of the time isn't congruent with the movies anyway.

DeVi| D0do
Everything you NEED to know to understand the films is in the films. EU is just backstory, additional info etc... And it's mostly crap.

I've not read ANY EU and I understand the films perfectly!

Darth Koroni
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
How bout sifo-dyas became darth plaguesis who stayed on the council clouded their vision while creating anakin and put the order in for the clones, before he could find a genetic template however he was murdered by sidious who then used dooku to find a genetic template? just a possibility

Plagious died before Phantom Menace, because if he was still alive, Darth Maul wouldn't be Sith.

Delta 62
EU is great. It provides alot more information and gives you more depth into the characters. I tend to not think of it as "EU", "OT", "PT".. To me it's all one HUGE story.

Evidently Sifo Dyas was kept frozen by Dooku, and was used in a blood transfusion process when Grievous was transferred to his droid body.

And of course Plagueus died before the events of Episode I..Sidious said the APPRENTICE killed him. Sidious had an apprentice and could therefore not be one.

Jack Daniels
EU stated SYFO was Dookus little biotch...he used him in his experiments and there was nothing little ole Syfo could do about it...Sifo sux Dooku pwns...lol...yes and that is all EU take it or leave it

Swanky-Tuna
Originally posted by jgtch
No mystery - if you saw E3 you saw the Emperor make the Clone Troopers into Stormtroopers by Executing order 66 which HE made sure they were programed with when HE gave the order to create them!
Movie-wise, it was pretty clear to me that order 66 wasn't a specific codeword for "time to turn evil and kill jedi!" Clearly he wanted to use the clones to kill the jedi but sans the storyline it was just a protocol, among many, in case the jedi turn rogue or whatever. Even if there wasn't a plot to kill the jedi, it would probably be there just in case.

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