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Ok, I know that most of you will think that I am insane making this a battle, but hear me out.

OT Vader has far more experience than RotS Vader does, he is calmer and thinks things out more.
Yes his blows are slower, but they are more powerful.
He also has far more control over the force than RotS Vader does. He is able to duel Luke in ESB and throw dozens of the poles at him. Impressive since most people can only do one or the other, he had to focus on attacking and controling a dozen objects. OT Vader can also choke a person from 8 miles away (choking Ozzel on the Executor), RotS Vader had trouble choking a person who was directly in front of him. It may be because that person was Padme, but at that point he was not thinking and was completely consumed by the dark side, I do not think that it would matter much.
Also, OT Vader has been training under Palpentine for 20 years, he knows far more of the dark side and of the force in general than RotS Vader does.
Finally, it never says that the lava made Anakin weaker, just prevented him from growing more powerful. However OT Vader has gained control over those powers.

I am very sorry but I'm a bit drowsy at the moment. Please re-tell me what ROTS and OT are. I know I just don't remember.

RotS is Return of the Sith

OT is Original Trilogy, like A New Hope, Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi

Well actually Revan Darkstar, Lucas does say that he loses a lot of his power when he became mecha Vader. As for choking, I'm really surprised he could even do that since he never learned anything about the dark side, he shouldn't have even been a Sith lord yet since he hadn't learned anything about the Sith teachings, he was just a powerful Dark Jedi. As for choking Ozzel 8 miles away, Exar Kun's SPIRIT could choke twelve Jedi padawans, only with the Force they barely resisted it. Throwing the objects: Vader mostly stood there and did that, only attacking with one slash or so. Dooku did that and he lost to ROTS Anakin. Sidious could throw several senate chairs around.

Now Mecha Vader would know way more of the dark side of the Force, but ROTS Anakin knows enough that it wouldn't help Vader much. Anakin is WAY better with a lightsaber and the only way Mecha Vader would win is to outsmart him. I think ROTS Anakin takes this pretty easy.

Well,i actually think OT Vader would win,before your whole explanation.

ROTS Anakin has the power, but OT Vader has the brain. If Vader can outsmart Anakin, he might win, but otherwise, I might have to go with ROTS Anakin.

Bump.

In The Clone Wars Anakin chokes a Skaokan. By the way, ROTS stands for Revenge of the Sith, sorry, it was bugging me, I know you know Darkstar.

I say OT Vader stomps his former self. He has 20+ years of intense Sith training, more control over his powers, he has been learning from a master who would teach him how to become powerful and not hold back. Sure, he has lost mobility, but his armor makes up for most of that. He took a lightsaber hit from Luke on the shoulder, and didn't give it a second thought.

And Vader was just standing there because he didn't need to move. He needed to show Luke his power tell him to learn it and overthrow the Emperor.

OT Vader

OT Vader has become a master in technique and being. Even though he lost some 'force potential', he beats the crap out of ROTS Vader.
Vader ROTS having more power? I'd like to see him pick up a man with only one arm.

Physical power ain't gonna do him much good here.
ROTS Vader had a higher potential (which was what I meant).

Vader was beaten by Luke, he was just swinging his lightsaber back and forth. It's arguable if he didn't want to hurt Luke but that's not an excuse of dropping your defence for those kind of attacks. ROTS Vader would easily break through his defence.
And how is Vader going to outsmart him?? He is not exactly agile or fast and could not hope to do like Obi-Wan did to Anakin.

The flashy ways of Ataru also makes practicians look like waving a lightsaber like retards.

The argument of "OMFG HE LOST TO A ROOKIE!!" Is totally out of place here.. Slip ups are constantly made in SW, it isn't an argument.

And what is with saying "ROTS Vader had a higher potential"? Potential: key word.

And yes, OT Vader can definately 'outsmart' ROTS Vader as that one rushes into fights and is arrogant and naive. ROTS Vader would most likely be the first one to slip up.

Assaj Ventress was a very skilled tactian, still she lost to him when he was still a padawan going to knight hood.
How is "Vader lost to a padawan" not something to use in an argument?
I agree that on some terms that kind of argument could be out of place but I doubt it is here. This was a padawan that had trained for 6 months and was filled with anger only swinging his saber from the left to the right. If he couldent parry that without getting put down on his ass and losing his hand I have no idea how he is going to face Anakin who actually had skills.
Anakin isent exactly easy to take down, Obi-Wan struggled with him for a long, long time before he could take him out by gaining the high ground, and on Mustafar it was much easier to use the enviroment than..... um... where is this fight?

What exactly do you mean with outsmart, like gaining high ground?

I don't feel arguing Lukes skills right now, call me tomorrow for that. For now I'll focus on the topic at hand.

I have no idea how he is going to face Anakin who actually had skills.

You think his skills didn't improve one bit over the years of training under the dark side and hunting down the last jedi? You are horribly mistaken. He perfected Shienn and was a real master being able to fight Obi Wan who did improve according to everybody wich I agree with.
The OT Vader beats the crap out of ROTS' his lightsaber and defeats him with perfected skills.

And you can refer to keeping a cool head and using the lightsaber technique when and however needed when talking about this 'outsmarting'.

Sure Vader's abilities with a lightsaber improved, but he was still more machine than man and could not move fast at all, damn he could hardly lift his lightsaber over his head. He was not the same person that he was before. No longer an athletic jedi and young and strong, he was a crippled machine.
Although he might have more techniques than ROTS Anakin he is way to fast for him.

GL himself has said that there is nothing wrong with the way they fight in the OT, he said that Vader was a crippled old man, that Obi-Wan was as well and Luke was just an untrained padawan. Obi-Wan did not improve much, he most likley decreased his skills. Watch the ANH battle between him and Vader.

Watch the ANH battle? Watch the ESB battle.
Vader most certainly can move and fight fast but it is not happening constantly as is the deal with other fights. Vader constantly relies on his strength to fight.
Everytime they makes some quick parries and swings they lock down in lightsabers. This is Shienn. Darth Vader just constantly tries to push away the opponents saber to make the second move. Check out the end of the fight where Vader beats away Lukes lightsaber, immediately returns and cuts off his hand.

Why else would Vader be able to kill all jedi? I'm saying Vader completely perfected his lightsaber style and has become almost undefeatable like Obi Wan. Shienn and Soresu are just the ultimate fighting styles.

I think ROTS' Vader will not be able to take the power and technique of himself when he is a master lightsaber dualist.

Ok I guess we can't use the battle scenes from the films as a fact because in ANH we know he wants to kill Obi badly, still he is really slow and not effective at all, yet when he faces Luke in ESB who he doesent wanna kill he is much faster. LMAO.

Vader didn't exactly go and kill all the jedi himself, he let the clones take most of them out.

If Vader is almost undefetable how come his defence is penetrated by some silly attacks, him losing to a reincarnation of Darth Maul who didn't even posses all his power or skills (he was lucky and stabbed Maul in the back while he was about to finish him).

Darth Vader (mech) can also get very cocky, for example when he faced Luke in ESB, he got a strike on his shoulder. He was lucky that Luke didn't hit his head. Luke also kicked him down from that platform, and he was counting Luke for knocked out when he fell into the carbon pit. Don't you think he would get cocky seeing his younger self.

Like Ive been saying all along, OT vader owns ROTS vader. Darkstar already made the points that I was going to make, and they eclipse the reasons why ROTS vader might win.

he wants to kill Obi badly, still he is really slow
yet when he faces Luke in ESB who he doesent wanna kill he is much faster.

Well, I didn't make the movies but I will presume that Vader could've fought the way he did in ESB whenever he could.

If Vader is almost undefetable how come his defence is penetrated by some silly attacks, him losing to a reincarnation of Darth Maul who didn't even posses all his power or skills (he was lucky and stabbed Maul in the back while he was about to finish him)

Maybe he keeps his head cool and actually fights him effectively. Anyway, how am I supposed to clearly judge the way he fights Maul if I can't see it on images? But my previous arguments still stand no matter what some clone Maul did.
Vaders defences are still great because of a perfected Shienn wich is using Soresu to counter attack.

Darth Vader (mech) can also get very cocky, for example when he faced Luke in ESB, he got a strike on his shoulder. He was lucky that Luke didn't hit his head. Luke also kicked him down from that platform, and he was counting Luke for knocked out when he fell into the carbon pit. Don't you think he would get cocky seeing his younger self.

His younger self is still more 'cocky' and arrogant.
The ROTS Vader would still slip up easier or just plainly get defeated by OT Vader.

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok I guess we can't use the battle scenes from the films as a fact because in ANH we know he wants to kill Obi badly, still he is really slow and not effective at all, yet when he faces Luke in ESB who he doesent wanna kill he is much faster. LMAO.

Vader didn't exactly go and kill all the jedi himself, he let the clones take most of them out.

If Vader is almost undefetable how come his defence is penetrated by some silly attacks, him losing to a reincarnation of Darth Maul who didn't even posses all his power or skills (he was lucky and stabbed Maul in the back while he was about to finish him).

Darth Vader (mech) can also get very cocky, for example when he faced Luke in ESB, he got a strike on his shoulder. He was lucky that Luke didn't hit his head. Luke also kicked him down from that platform, and he was counting Luke for knocked out when he fell into the carbon pit. Don't you think he would get cocky seeing his younger self.


1.OT fights cant be used as proper ways to look at Luke and Vaders saber skills due to the fact there almost 40 years old.

2.Proof?

3.WTF? First I do not believe the wacko comic that the fight took place in is canon, and secondly Vader won anyways...

4.Vader isnt cocky, Luke just got a shot in at that instance because Vader wasnt trying to kill him just capture him and Luke suddenly started using his anger and suprised him. Vader made sure it didnt happen again and promptly sliced Lukes arm off if you dont recall.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Like Ive been saying all along, OT vader owns ROTS vader. Darkstar already made the points that I was going to make, and they eclipse the reasons why ROTS vader might win. I agree, this little debate I am holding is fun but it still hasn't aquired a good point for young Vader winning.

ROTS Vader did not do many mistakes against ROTS Obi-Wan who barley survived, and there Anakin was consumed by anger for both of his best friends lying to him and betraying him. Anakin does not just stab himself with the lightsaber or jump into someone elses, he is an excellent fighter and a great duellist.

What? He could have fought as he did in ESB all along? Then why didn't he? He wanted to kill Obi-Wan more than anything, would he play with him then, I don't think so.

What do you mean keeping his head cool? He lost both fights, but was lucky in one. If that's how he fights smart then I can only imagen how this would end.

As far as we know, ROTS Vader defence was never really penetrated, he was defeated by Obi-Wan because he was using the enviroment to his advantage. We have seen Darth Vader's defence being broken through some times, and that is by an un-trained jedi and a weaker version of a sith apprentice.
If I'm right, this is a fight on just plain ground which means no high grounds (that's usually how it plays out except if the creator tells us where it is).

Sorry if this came out harsh, didn't mean it like that.

Luke only got that hit in because it was a desperate attack. He let down his defences and took a bold swing because he knew he was outclassed. Nothing against Luke at this point, he was very powerful, but was beaten. Vader could have killed Luke right then, just he wanted him to join him. Well, I'll be quiet now or else I'll end up going scene by scene in a movie you have already seen (whoa).

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
1.OT fights cant be used as proper ways to look at Luke and Vaders saber skills due to the fact there almost 40 years old.

2.Proof?

3.WTF? First I do not believe the wacko comic that the fight took place in is canon, and secondly Vader won anyways...

4.Vader isnt cocky, Luke just got a shot in at that instance because Vader wasnt trying to kill him just capture him and Luke suddenly started using his anger and suprised him. Vader made sure it didnt happen again and promptly sliced Lukes arm off if you dont recall.


1. GL has said that it's nothing wrong to the way they fight, it's supposed to be like that (though I doubt he would say that if he made them after the PT).

2. Most of the jedi we're killed in the temple purge. While the whole background is filled with laser, we see clones and jedi fighting everywhere, we see Vader walking into a room of younglings.
If you play BF2 you will play as the 501st legion, they said they went with Vader when he assassinated the jedi's that were left. I doubt they would just stand and watch Vader duel multiple jedi alone.
No big experience given there since he had an army firing at them from behind.

3. I'll check if it's canon or not.

4. Well yeah, he underestimated Luke because he was a mere padawan. And Vader was ready, Luke was lying on his back, he hit Vader's lightsaber and got up, then stroke again and after some hits he got his shoulder.

Originally posted by kamikz
1. GL has said that it's nothing wrong to the way they fight, it's supposed to be like that (though I doubt he would say that if he made them after the PT).

2. Most of the jedi we're killed in the temple purge. While the whole background is filled with laser, we see clones and jedi fighting everywhere, we see Vader walking into a room of younglings.
If you play BF2 you will play as the 501st legion, they said they went with Vader when he assassinated the jedi's that were left. I doubt they would just stand and watch Vader duel multiple jedi alone.
No big experience given there since he had an army firing at them from behind.

3. I'll check if it's canon or not.

4. Well yeah, he underestimated Luke because he was a mere padawan. And Vader was ready, Luke was lying on his back, he hit Vader's lightsaber and got up, then stroke again and after some hits he got his shoulder.

1.Exactly, if George made the fight in current times there would be current standards to the quality of the combat.

2.Yes most were killed in the purge, but many still survived and it was Vaders job to eliminate the remainders. By OT times all except Ben and Yoda were dead.

3.You do that, it wouldnt matter either way because Vader still won.

4.I cant recall exactly how the fight went, I havent seen the movie in atleast a year. Ill watch the movie again if I have the time.

EDIT: If I sounded harsh or arrogant I apologize. Months of being in this hostile enviroment has rubbed off on me.

ROTS Vader did not do many mistakes against ROTS Obi-Wan who barley survived, and there Anakin was consumed by anger for both of his best friends lying to him and betraying him. Anakin does not just stab himself with the lightsaber or jump into someone elses, he is an excellent fighter and a great duellist.
Sure he is great but he is not on the level of master duelist and it still was his arrogance wich led to his downfall, this happened with Dooku also in AotC. We can expect him to make mistakes in this fight.

What? He could have fought as he did in ESB all along? Then why didn't he? He wanted to kill Obi-Wan more than anything, would he play with him then, I don't think so.

Still doesn't change the fact that the ESB way of fighting is canon.

What do you mean keeping his head cool? He lost both fights, but was lucky in one. If that's how he fights smart then I can only imagen how this would end.
Explain yourself please. What are you refering to?

As far as we know, ROTS Vader defence was never really penetrated, he was defeated by Obi-Wan because he was using the enviroment to his advantage
Obi Wan didn't really use the environment to his advantage, he is also not used to fighting in this way. But he managed to keep his head cool and prevail.
Also.. Maybe his defences did not get broken. It doesn't matter. OT Vader will do this.

We have seen Darth Vader's defence being broken through some times, and that is by an un-trained jedi and a weaker version of a sith apprentice.
That is a whole other discussion. It's major speculation on Lukes part.
I will focus on OT Vader instead.

If I'm right, this is a fight on just plain ground which means no high grounds (that's usually how it plays out except if the creator tells us where it is).
Don't worry about high grounds. OT Vader does not need a higher ground to win just because ROTS Vader made a miscalculation. OT Vader wins on other levels also.

Sorry if this came out harsh, didn't mean it like that.

Don't worry about that, but erm.. I still don't see an argument that ROTS Vader will defeat OT Vader. I now only see arguments trying to debunk my previous comments.
Should we go on?

Well.. Time to go to bed for me.

Good luck to potential continuers.
I trust nobody screws up or gets the thread closed?

He was way more arrogant in AOTC.
Sure he is able to beat a master, he beated Dooku.

In the fight with Obi-Wan he was insane with anger, still he was standing up to Obi-Wan very well, almost defeated him. Obi-Wan had a much better defence than OT Vader, both in style and in stamina, agility and speed, yet he was pushed to the edge of that while fighting an insane Anakin.

We can't debate about the movie fights (ANH and ESB) since all the films are canon yet are showing different stuff.

Ok, the only thing I saw was Vader being beaten by a mere padawan and you should be the one saying what's wrong with using that as an argument cause to me it clearly seems that OT Vader was rusty. We can't just focus around the person Vader, we must focus around his accomplishments and his faliures.

I can't see OT Vader beating ROTS Obi-Wan and I can't see Obi-Wan defeating Anakin without an high ground. They were pretty much equal, there was no clear winner, and yes he did use the enviroment.

Originally posted by kamikz
Sure he is able to beat a master, he beated Dooku.

Yeah, he beated Dooku real baayyd.

Okay...........Vader did have 20+ years of sith training, way more fighting experience, he was so much stronger, he had more of a battlemind( meaning he could find a weakness and exploit it), he took a lightsaber hit to the chest and shoulder and as Jollyjim said, he didn't give it a second thought. Pre- suit Vader may be faster, but I'm willing to bet Luke was faster than Vader to.. Also OT Vader doesn't underestimate his opponents. Ot Vader I'm saying wins this.