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a SW buddy of mine said he thinks that everything that led up to the rise of the sith is yoda's fault. any thoughts?

everything was inevitable. the will of the force.
heck, why not blame obi-wan then? he trained anakin.

I doubt any one jedi is to blame, and the one with the biggest mistake would be Qui-Gon.

what? qui gon, had he lived, would have been the perfect master for annie. in my opinion, annie should have never been trained. he was, so thats that. but, i think the job should have fell upon yoda or mace windu to train him.

if anyone's to blame, it's Padme

why qui-gon? if you were him and tested a little kid's midi-blah-blah count and he had even more than yoda, would you just say, "meh" and leave him there?

Originally posted by Exar Fett
if anyone's to blame, it's Padme
well, many empire's have fallen...or in this case, built because of poon.

exactly. qui gon saw annies potential. even though i agree that annie shouldnt have been trained, qui gon would have been an ideal master to train him.

The one thing that doesn't make sense though, is that Obi-Wan beat Anakin, and although Yoda didn't beat Sidious, he put up a good fight. Now logically, wouldn't Yoda want to get Obi-Wan to go at another time and face Sidious so they could kill him? The two of them combined could take him, especially if they could come in contact with others to help them. Palps is good, but he's not gonna be able to defend himself against like 10 Jedi, a bunch of people with blasters, and the two most powerful Jedi in the order! So yes, it is Yoda's fault, for not having thought of that plan, and for teaching Jedi for hundreds of years things like "strong enough to fight the Emperor, you are not"..."Too sure of themselves they are, even the older, more experienced ones"...learn your own lesson Kermit.

Yoda still rocks though lol.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
exactly. qui gon saw annies potential. even though i agree that annie shouldnt have been trained, qui gon would have been an ideal master to train him.

Yes had he lived he would have been perfect, but his dying wish comes back to haunt them. You cant deny a guy his dying wish.

I'd never blame Qui Gon. It's Yoda and the rest of the Jedi's fault. Qui Gon understood that the Jedi were wrong. He was like a Rogue Jedi. Going against the will of the Council and the code. Yoda screwed it all up. He "failed" in more ways than one...

Qui-gon was the only Jedi left that was in-tune with the force and acting according to it's will. The rest of the Jedi were straying away from the ideals of the Jedi and becoming more political and dogmatic than anything. Yoda and Mace Windu are very much to blame, just as much as the rest of the council. They did not see the dark side rising and were duped by Palpatine because they were being politicians, not being Jedi. That is why Qui-gon was not on the council and often ignored them, because he was following the force and not them.

That is why Yoda becomes Qui-gon's apprentice at the end of the film; Qui-gon instructs Yoda and helps him to go back to the correct ways.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Qui-gon was the only Jedi left that was in-tune with the force and acting according to it's will. The rest of the Jedi were straying away from the ideals of the Jedi and becoming more political and dogmatic than anything. Yoda and Mace Windu are very much to blame, just as much as the rest of the council. They did not see the dark side rising and were duped by Palpatine because they were being politicians, not being Jedi. That is why Qui-gon was not on the council and often ignored them, because he was following the force and not them.

That is why Yoda becomes Qui-gon's apprentice at the end of the film; Qui-gon instructs Yoda and helps him to go back to the correct ways.
clapping

Very well said.... what I was trying to say.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
a SW buddy of mine said he thinks that everything that led up to the rise of the sith is yoda's fault. any thoughts?

That is incredibly false. If everyone would have listend to yoda, anakin would have been left at the door back when he was a shitty child actor.

yoda had a responsibility to make sure annie was properly trained, and by appointing him to obi wan, he failed in this responsibility.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
I'd never blame Qui Gon. It's Yoda and the rest of the Jedi's fault. Qui Gon understood that the Jedi were wrong. He was like a Rogue Jedi. Going against the will of the Council and the code. Yoda screwed it all up. He "failed" in more ways than one...

Indeed. Had Qui-Gon trained Anikan, he would have been there for the boy. As much as Obi-Wan was and was close to him, everything in his training was about dogma and rules. Neither he nor Yoda nor Mace paid any attention to Anikan's feelings. That's not to say that his feelings should take place over the responsibility of being a Jedi, but the fact remains he is human and humans have feelings. Qui-Gon would have been someone to go to for Anikan, and would have taught him how to control himself better. His feelings would have been tended to while still taking second place to the way of the Jedi.

This is the reason that when we see Luke being trained, Yoda and Obi-Wan pay more attention to his feelings (while not obsessing over them). They also warn him left and right about the dark side, whereas it seems in the time of ROTS nobody talks about it and the young padawans are left in a position where any one of them would easily succumb to temptation as they have not been warned. The reason Yoda and Obi-Wan behave differently is because Qui-Gon has been training them in these ways for 20 years, and this is why Luke is able to resist Palpatine.

yeah. i was JUST gonna say that. you beat me too it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yoda had a responsibility to make sure annie was properly trained, and by appointing him to obi wan, he failed in this responsibility.

Anakins training was not Yodas responsibility, it was his masters. Anakin turning to the dark side was not the fault of any jedi, it was achieved over years of deciet. Yoda was the ONLY jedi who sensed what Anakin was truly capable of.

i think it was all mace windu's falut

if you read the book you understand what anakin is feeling and realize that he is balancing the jedi and the will to save padme. if mace were just paying more attention and wasnt so sure of the idea that anakin would never try to strike him down he couldve avoided anakin's attack and kill palpatine, tipping the scale in anakin's head to the jedi and the rigth path and everything wouldve been fine.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
That is incredibly false. If everyone would have listend to yoda, anakin would have been left at the door back when he was a shitty child actor.

There are two ways to look at this. Either Palpatine knew about Anakin (because he or Plagieus created the boy) and he would have then gotten the boy and trained him from youth into a MUCH more powerful Sith than he became before his injuries , pr he had a master plan to overthrow the Jedi WITHOUT the help of Anakin in which case he probably would have been succesful. He orchestrated everything else, and the whole Jedi order was totally blind to it, so there is NO reason to believe they would have stopped him. Be-it Maul, Tyrannus, or whomever, Sidious would have killed all the Jedi with someone else . Remember, he already had the entire clone army programmed to turn on the Jedi and kill them all anyways. The role Anakin played in the Jedi's downfall was quite insignificant in relation to the hundreds/thousands of Jedi that the soldiers killed.

It is only through Luke, who was begotten of Anakin, that the Sith were destroyed.

In other words, if everyone had listened to Yoda, he and Obi-Wan would be dead along with the rest of the Jedi and the Sith would rule forever.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Indeed. Had Qui-Gon trained Anikan, he would have been there for the boy. As much as Obi-Wan was and was close to him, everything in his training was about dogma and rules. Neither he nor Yoda nor Mace paid any attention to Anikan's feelings. That's not to say that his feelings should take place over the responsibility of being a Jedi, but the fact remains he is human and humans have feelings. Qui-Gon would have been someone to go to for Anikan, and would have taught him how to control himself better. His feelings would have been tended to while still taking second place to the way of the Jedi.

This is the reason that when we see Luke being trained, Yoda and Obi-Wan pay more attention to his feelings (while not obsessing over them). They also warn him left and right about the dark side, whereas it seems in the time of ROTS nobody talks about it and the young padawans are left in a position where any one of them would easily succumb to temptation as they have not been warned. The reason Yoda and Obi-Wan behave differently is because Qui-Gon has been training them in these ways for 20 years, and this is why Luke is able to resist Palpatine.
bingo!!!

Okay. This is real simple. Its not Padme's falut or Obi's or Yoda's or Mace's or Qui Gon or any body like that. I think we can all agree it's palpatine's falut! If he didn't want to rule the galaxy none of this would have happened! Every thing would go on just as it had for centurys. every bad thing that happens in Star Wars is all Palpetine's fault. Just think about it!

mysterio69 (why qui-gon? if you were him and tested a little kid's midi-blah-blah count and he had even more than yoda, would you just say, "meh" and leave him there?)

Lazerlike42 (Qui-gon was the only Jedi left that was in-tune with the force and acting according to it's will. The rest of the Jedi were straying away from the ideals of the Jedi and becoming more political and dogmatic than anything. Yoda and Mace Windu are very much to blame, just as much as the rest of the council. They did not see the dark side rising and were duped by Palpatine because they were being politicians, not being Jedi. That is why Qui-gon was not on the council and often ignored them, because he was following the force and not them.
That is why Yoda becomes Qui-gon's apprentice at the end of the film; Qui-gon instructs Yoda and helps him to go back to the correct ways.)

Rogue (Jediwhat? qui gon, had he lived, would have been the perfect master for annie. in my opinion, annie should have never been trained. he was, so thats that. but, i think the job should have fell upon yoda or mace windu to train him.)
You can't blame Yoda he and Mace said Anikan shouldn't be trained and if Yoda or Mace mostly Yoda had trained him that would be a distaster Anikan would be powerful and almost unbeatable good thing Obi-wan trained him he became stronge but not close to being all powerful and if they did leave Anikan their like mysterio69 said their would be no more movies it would be pointless you would see less fighting and more council talking junk and Lazerlike42 i so agree with you yeah for a while the Jedi were a mess they were politians not being Jedi like at really except in fighting that all till the third movie which rocks out loud

It's Obi-Wan's fault.

I mean...why didn't he just stab Anakin as he lay there with his legs missing? Hel-loooooo...look what he created out of sheer negligence.

Well if Yoda did his job Palpatine wouldn't have been able to go back and save Vader...

Violin Vixen good point it's all stupid Palpetine's fault he has to try and take over the galxy bigger than the world what would he do any ways if he controlled the galaxy it would be dull he would just laugh to him self i am powerful i have killed all the Jedis than it would hit him like his lightning what do i do now for fun ? or anything for that matter noooooo! and the goodside had more point of wining the darkside would do nothing with the power really except think that life is pointless after they accomplish it they have no hobbie no goal well that all i have to say for now i have school it's 10:51 night bye

umm could you guys kill your best friend of all time who saved you life for 4 times nope he thought he would die and he couldn't bear looking at him but i would take him back with me and help him and then he would be good again but he would be handycaped so he couldn't pose a threat that way every on wins except darkside

For the sake of all that is good, would you use some punctuation already?

Originally posted by green dude
Violin Vixen good point it's all stupid Palpetine's fault he has to try and take over the galxy bigger than the world what would he do any ways if he controlled the galaxy it would be dull he would just laugh to him self i am powerful i have killed all the Jedis than it would hit him like his lightning what do i do now for fun ? or anything for that matter noooooo! and the goodside had more point of wining the darkside would do nothing with the power really except think that life is pointless after they accomplish it they have no hobbie no goal well that all i have to say for now i have school it's 10:51 night bye

yah, what is with all of the personal attacks on yoda, it isnt Yoda's fault. If any jedi is to blame it is Mace Windu, because he didn't wait for Yoda and Obi-Wan before confronting Palpatine.(Stupid arrogant windu.Shame Shame)But if it isn't a jedi's fault I have to agree with Green Dude and Violen Vixen it is Palpatine's fault all the way

it was the entire jedi orders arrogance and stupidity that lead to the fall of the republic...

among a bunch of other stuff, mainly a very powerful Sith lord who has the ability to pretty much see everything thats going to happen and manipulate it to his advantage...

Originally posted by green dude
umm could you guys kill your best friend of all time who saved you life for 4 times nope he thought he would die and he couldn't bear looking at him but i would take him back with me and help him and then he would be good again but he would be handycaped so he couldn't pose a threat that way every on wins except darkside

Anakin falls to the dark side because his feelings and emotions are never addressed, and in fact what everyone keeps telling him is that his feelings shouldn't or don't matter. Yoda essentialy tells him he's not allowed to have feelings at one point during the movie.

Obi-Wan does not kill Anakin out of feelings. He himself shows attachment, something forbidden to the Jedi. If the Jedi were all correct in their ways, then Obbi-Wan is in great error and commiting the very same "sin" as Anakin did insofar as that he had feelings and attachment.

He was wrong not to strike Anakin and make sure it was done, but he was wrong not only tactically but also insofar as that he made himself a hypocrite. If it were so that the Jedi paid more attention to the human (or Twi'lek or whatever) side of people, both Anakin and Obi-Wan would very likely have been able to keep their feelings in check (though if Anakin did, Obi-Wan would have had no oppurtunity to). The error is on the shoulders of the Jedi order, of whom Yoda is a key figure.

I agree 100%. As always, very well said.

In fact, Obi Wan is much like his Master Qui Gon. In that, yes he does disobey the code by allowing himself to form an attachment to his apprentice, to his... 'brother'. But also in that he doesn't agree with the ways of the Council. This is shown at the end of the conversation he has with Anakin about his 'new assignment': Anakin asks "Why do you ask this of me?" to which Obi Wan replies "The Council asks you."

I also believe Obi Wan suspects a relationship between Anakin and Padme. A scene ultimately cut from the film confirms this. The scene is between Obi Wan and Padme in which Obi Wan speaks of his worries about Anakin. It is the conversation Padmes speaks of to Anakin later. The scene was probably cut due to time as this is really the only thing it establishes. But I think it's important to note that Obi Wan knows of their relationship but says "I'm not telling the Council of any of this". I guess what I'm trying to say is Obi Wan too doesn't agree with the Jedi, probably something he learned from his Master.

I'm not as good with words as Lazerlike, but I know what I mean.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
In fact, Obi Wan is much like his Master Qui Gon. In that, yes he does disobey the code by allowing himself to form an attachment to his apprentice, to his... 'brother'. But also in that he doesn't agree with the ways of the Council. This is shown at the end of the conversation he has with Anakin about his 'new assignment': Anakin asks "Why do you ask this of me?" to which Obi Wan replies "The Council asks you."

I also believe Obi Wan suspects a relationship between Anakin and Padme. A scene ultimately cut from the film confirms this. The scene is between Obi Wan and Padme in which Obi Wan speaks of his worries about Anakin. It is the conversation Padmes speaks of to Anakin later. The scene was probably cut due to time as this is really the only thing it establishes. But I think it's important to note that Obi Wan knows of their relationship but says "I'm not telling the Council of any of this". I guess what I'm trying to say is Obi Wan too doesn't agree with the Jedi, probably something he learned from his Master.

I'm not as good with words as Lazerlike, but I know what I mean.

That's interesting.... what is he referring to when he says that he is not going to tell the council about it?

I agree dodo, while not to the extent of QGJ, Obi is more of what a jedi should embody(sp).

And in the book(for what it is worth) Obi-Wan basically confirms that he has always known about the two of them.

lol well to me it's obvious in AOTC.

First there's the scene at the beginning where Anakin whines that she doesn't care he is there, and he says that he has thought about her every day for 10 years or something. Obi-Wan tells him, "She was happy to see you (may have been us can't recall)," and it comes across almost like a guy telling his buddy, 'hey I think she likes you,' or something.

Second, Obi-Wan gives Anakin this look right after he and Padme are kissing while waiting to be taken to the execution. I don't think he saw them, but how could he not sense it? The look to me is great, it almost says, "get a room."

Third, from that point on Anakin spends the rest of the movie complaining about how he has to help Padme. The most obvious part is where she falls and Anakin and Obi-Wan get into a fight over whether to go resuce her. Obi-Wan says "Don't let your personal feelings get in the way," or something like that, and "What do you think Padme would do were she in your position?" It's pretty hard to believe he'd say things with that relevance to their relationship without knowing about it.

Dont forget

Anakin-"I'd much rather dream about Padme, just being around her again is intoxicating."

OW-"Be careful of your thoughts Anakin, they betray you."

Originally posted by astrofan428
Dont forget

Anakin-"I'd much rather dream about Padme, just being around her again is intoxicating."

OW-"Be careful of your thoughts Anakin, they betray you."

yeah... this is interesting it's giving me food for thought into a new way of looking at Obi-Wan

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Anakins training was not Yodas responsibility, it was his masters. Anakin turning to the dark side was not the fault of any jedi, it was achieved over years of deciet. Yoda was the ONLY jedi who sensed what Anakin was truly capable of.

To say that training Anakin was the job of his jedi masters and not yodas responsibility is like saying that the war in iraq in colin powell's fault, and not dubbya's. EVERYTHING is Yoda's responsibility, he's the head muppet. The root cause of this entire debate is a poor storyline that focuses far too much on trying to establish some sort of lineage or legacy for the jedi to tie into the original three films. Having just seen the third movie and having the ill judgement to have actually paid money to do so, I can say with confidence that the entire affair is simply G-Luc trying to justify his insatiable greed for money with a poorly constructed effort that lacks any semblance of plausible logic simply so that he can make these first three egg suckers.

Obi-Wan is like the Uncle who gives you beer and lets you watch porn while your parents are away.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
That's interesting.... what is he referring to when he says that he is not going to tell the council about it? Anakin and Padme's relationship. Basically an unneeded scene. Most of what was established in it was repeated by Padme in the scene with Anakin later: that Obi Wan was worried about him. In fact, that's really the only interesting line in the whole scene.

Yeah, I agree. It's quite obvious Obi Wan knows from very early... perhaps not of the marriage but definitely of the relationship.

Originally posted by astrofan428
Obi-Wan is like the Uncle who gives you beer and lets you watch porn while your parents are away. Haha, so true.

Originally posted by astrofan428
Obi-Wan is like the Uncle who gives you beer and lets you watch porn while your parents are away.

Originally posted by atlasorion
To say that training Anakin was the job of his jedi masters and not yodas responsibility is like saying that the war in iraq in colin powell's fault, and not dubbya's. EVERYTHING is Yoda's responsibility, he's the head muppet. The root cause of this entire debate is a poor storyline that focuses far too much on trying to establish some sort of lineage or legacy for the jedi to tie into the original three films. Having just seen the third movie and having the ill judgement to have actually paid money to do so, I can say with confidence that the entire affair is simply G-Luc trying to justify his insatiable greed for money with a poorly constructed effort that lacks any semblance of plausible logic simply so that he can make these first three egg suckers.

Actually, I am convinced that money has little to do with it. Although it is a factor for every person, I have become convinced this is all about Lucas' vision.

I have way too many ideas about this to list here, but here's one lol:

The new soundtrack releases.... I thought at first, oh, trying to wring every last dollar out of Episode 3. Then I realized what they're really for (IMO): the utter annihalation that the OT ever existed in any form other than the Special Edition. The DVD is special edition, and remember there are some significant soundtrack changes in the Special Edition, most notably the celebration theme at the end of ROTJ (which I can't stand the change). I am thoroughly convinced Lucas couldn't care less about the money he is simply trying to make every effort possible to erase all memories of the OT as we remember it so as to have his work of art as he "envisioned" it.

"Every Trilogy VHS is now an enemy of the Republic"

Lazerlike42
(Anakin falls to the dark side because his feelings and emotions are never addressed, and in fact what everyone keeps telling him is that his feelings shouldn't or don't matter. Yoda essentialy tells him he's not allowed to have feelings at one point during the movie.

Obi-Wan does not kill Anakin out of feelings. He himself shows attachment, something forbidden to the Jedi. If the Jedi were all correct in their ways, then Obbi-Wan is in great error and commiting the very same "sin" as Anakin did insofar as that he had feelings and attachment.

He was wrong not to strike Anakin and make sure it was done, but he was wrong not only tactically but also insofar as that he made himself a hypocrite. If it were so that the Jedi paid more attention to the human (or Twi'lek or whatever) side of people, both Anakin and Obi-Wan would very likely have been able to keep their feelings in check (though if Anakin did, Obi-Wan would have had no oppurtunity to). The error is on the shoulders of the Jedi order, of whom Yoda is a key figure.)

you have to have self control and don't let your emotions control you like Anikan for episode 2 attack of the clones he killed all those sand people cuz he was angry if you go around doing that you will have guilt of doing something wrong but being a Jedi means no distrations like in the war if you make friends or have some body special at home you will get attack and then when they die you get sad and spend time morning over them so thats why Anikan turned to the darkside he was scared of losing his wife and he tried to save her and he kinda killed her and why he didn't become Jedi Master was because he wasn't fighting at full potencial if he had more patience he would be the Master of Jedis

If Qui-Gon was alive it would have made no difference. Anakin would have no lived up to his potential and would not have been unable to kill Sidious. I dont think anyone could have been able to kill him other then Anakin and to do that HE HAD to turn to the dark side. He was the chosen one, but the prophecy was never specified on the road in which t o obtain balance. They even said in Episode 3 the prophecy could have been read wrong, and it was. The only way he could have killed Palpatine was to go threw hell and be brought back by the love for his child. Everything in the story happened for a reason, Sidious knew what was going to happen because he could see the future (anakin turning and all), he could not forsee his death because the LIGHT side was cloudying his powers in ROTJ (IMO)...i dont really think it was anyones FAULT...i think it was just all necessary...

Well, to me I think it was all Qui-gon's fault because Qui-gon told Obi/Ben-Kenobi to train Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Yoda... well it was not his fault because he just keept saying no Yoda just said go ahead but the dark side Annie will become.

Yoda ran away from his duel with the emperor when he could have sacrificed himself to destroy him... Considering what was at stake, it was pretty selfish to run away.

It is all Qui-gon's fault

qui gon? man, that is crazy. NO WAY could he have seen what was to come. he would have been the ideal master for annie.

It was Qui Gon's fault that Annie turned to the dark side. Because Qui Gon's apprentice trained Annie.

huh? thats like saying that hitler's descendants are responsible for his killing millions of jews.

People who say Qui Gon is to blame: dude... did you even read any of what was posted on the second page?

Originally posted by mysterio69
why qui-gon? if you were him and tested a little kid's midi-blah-blah count and he had even more than yoda, would you just say, "meh" and leave him there?

No, I would have said "mooh" and left him there.. there's a subtle difference (the difference being "mooh" is a more impressed reaction to the midi-blah-blah than a mere "meh".

The point is...... I'm stupid.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
People who say Qui Gon is to blame: dude... did you even read any of what was posted on the second page?
people don't tend to do that lol

Originally posted by jabbar
No, I would have said "mooh" and left him there.. there's a subtle difference (the difference being "mooh" is a more impressed reaction to the midi-blah-blah than a mere "meh".

The point is...... I'm stupid.

don't be so hard on yerself. i'm just more a fan of "meh."

What up people

Originally posted by green dude
umm could you guys kill your best friend of all time who saved you life for 4 times nope he thought he would die and he couldn't bear looking at him but i would take him back with me and help him and then he would be good again but he would be handycaped so he couldn't pose a threat that way every on wins except darkside
Would you let your best friend burn alive? I would of put him down or at least pushed him in so the burning was faster.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Would you let your best friend burn alive? I would of put him down or at least pushed him in so the burning was faster.

obi-wan is a jedi, through and through. a jedi doesn't kill an unnarmed man...especially if he's honestly unnarmed. and yeah, he couldn't bring himself to kill him.

I think that Obi wan was too young to take an apprentice because ani saw him as that older brother that was cool wit cha sometimes but still layed down the law. He didn't have as much respect for him as he did Qui gon. So to quote Ani "IT'S ALL OBI WAN'S FAULT" lol

Thank you but I think it is Qui-gon's fault

I like the Sith

Aculy Jedi's rule

I think that's true

When someone doesnt respond after you post, that is okay, someone will in time.