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They're saying on Tv that the French said "non" to it.

And our stupid govermant of course says that we should vote for it....so then we can change it. for me it make no sense.

anyway...
i'd like to know why is it such a big deal.
i know that the constitution is the most important law etc...but if every country has their own..why to make a new one?

Its not really a constitution, I hate the name.

Its basic a set of agreements, most of them that were already made a long time ago thrown into one big treaty with some new stuff in it. It is supposed to make Europe more powerful, more democratic, clearer to the people so that they can see what will happen and make it easier for Europe to make decisions together.

France did say no, the Netherlands the country I live in will probably say no, and if England has a referendum they will probably say no. None of these country's however deal with the things in the constitution. France had a few people that were against it for good reasons, none that imo weighed up to the advantages but okay thats an opinion. Most people however voted no out of protest.

The same will happen in this country, people are pissed off at the government. Never mind the fact that 9 old prime ministers from all different party's have said its a good thing. Lets just forget that Wim Duisenberg, a great former European bank and Dutch bank president has said that its a good. Never mind the fact that most of the bigger party's in this country are for the constitution just like in France and England.

That all doesn't matter people don't like the government so they vote No. They should read up and make their decision on that.

Sorry for the rant just had to get that out its really annoying me.

I don't like the constitution too much, too liberal, but I think it is very necessairy for europe so I would vote yes.

I agree with Fishy tons of people vote no for the wrong reasons.

Originally posted by Fire
I don't like the constitution too much, too liberal, but I think it is very necessairy for europe so I would vote yes.

I agree with Fishy tons of people vote no for the wrong reasons.

I'm not really a big fan of the thing either, but its necessary...

And what do you mean with Liberal? The American definition/left win or the well at least dutch definition/ more right wing?

well who cares now anyways...the french decided they don't want it...so well we won't get it whatever people vote (by the way in Germany the Parlament voted not the people)

Finland said yes.

Same in belgium, I still think it's important to the EU to continue this Bardock

Hardly matters now, country's still place importance in it because they can see what the people think and what they should change next time. If whats in the constitution even matters in the first place.

France its no however means that somethings will have to be changed ...Probably minimal and if all country's will just say No to a referendum and let the government decide then the next constitution will be accepted and all those problems will be over

the constitution is too liberal, should have been more social so I'm glad at least one (who had the chance to vote) country voted no... eventhough it was for the wrong reasons

Yea, chances are like that Fishy, but those minimal changes and stuff will set us back for some years. This is truly sad.

Well leaders should realize that the outcome of these referrenda has very little to do with the actual constitution

Originally posted by yerssot
the constitution is too liberal, should have been more social so I'm glad at least one (who had the chance to vote) country voted no... eventhough it was for the wrong reasons

Where did you get that from?

Originally posted by Fire
Yea, chances are like that Fishy, but those minimal changes and stuff will set us back for some years. This is truly sad.

Well leaders should realize that the outcome of these referrenda has very little to do with the actual constitution

Yeah they will, its really a shame that it happened like that, but well what are you going to do?

Originally posted by Fishy
Where did you get that from?
the magic ability of reading

Originally posted by yerssot
the magic ability of reading

...

Well opinions differ...

I actually do think although far from perfect the European constitution will help all party's involved.

And even if I didn't I still wouldn't agree with what the French did and what the Dutch are probably going to do. If you are voting for the wrong reasons then you might be doing things you don't want to do.. Ignorant bastards

at least they can go and vote, in other countries you can't even do that

and I think the constitution should be right from the first time and not years later

depends on what one calls right

I think the EU will always have a very liberal constitution, cause tons of liberal ideas are inherent to the EU.

but why does it have to have a constitution? cry

Well actually it wouldn't be that necessary. They could just take those articles and poor it into treaties. Which would also have to be ratified and carried out. but the thing is a constitution would be a great symbol for European unity all over the world.

Originally posted by Fire
Same in belgium, I still think it's important to the EU to continue this Bardock

It doesn't matter who votes what now because the politicians will just take it in their hands and do whatever they want.

Well I personally believe Europe always has been a very liberal place, and I personally think that it is the best way anyways. I guess social ideas are to some extend ok but if they go to far (Ulike in germany) they just screw your economy and make your country weak and poor.

i think it sounds like a good idea to have the same basic laws and rights in every country. that way everyone knows the boundaries... especially people passing through.... like backpackers and tourists and stuff. I mean they shouldnt cater to tourists, but it does keep things easier by keeping them out of jail

Odd that if the British rejected it it would be for not being liberal enough...

lol what do you think ush, liberal enough or not?

I don't think it makes a blind bit of difference. So it embraces a free market economy. Well, whopee-do. As Giscard says, that merely states what is already patently obvious about the way the entire world works.

I voted for "i have no opinion/i'm not from europe". But I do wish them the best with whatever they doing over there.

The Constitution will include having a full time President of the council rather than the current rotation system. This move is supposed to maintain continuity, rather than having a handover at the end of each term which results into conflicting 'modus operandi' of each new presidency.

On this point i would agree ; it minimises gridlock.

Yet however the fcat the EU const. gives national parliaments more opportunity to object to EU laws, though no power to overturn them kinda sucks.

i havent made up my mind for certain.

Is their own fault...
they make a constitution (for the economy) so Neo-Liberal that the people says NO to it.
They spend years in this constitution and now that is for the hell...

Hmm, personally I think its an appauling (sorry about the spelling) idea.

The EU has done nothing but hassle scotland and the UK. We've had sanctions put on fishing, all sorts of nonsense. I'll admit i'm not very knowlegdable about it. But What the hell does something living in brussels/france/netherlands/beligum/germany/england know about scottish fishing? I know this is one example. But what right does someone in Brussels have to say Scots can't fish. Absolute morons if you ask me.

I can not see what possible reason there is to ban fishing. Which is all the EU has tried to do here.

Well that's one of the problems with the EU, they often come across as governing matters which are non of their concern, but the fishing from the Scottish fishermen in the northern sea (I'm assuming you mean that) affects fishermen all over Europe. So I can understand why it should be a European matter.

If countries don't like the idea of giving up their sovereignty then they should not have joined.

Ush is right tho about the constitution not saying much more than what is already been happening.

Maya it is not because a portion of the french citizens said NO (most of them for the wrong reasons even) that the whole of Europe disagrees with that constitution.

It's kinda sad that Chirac and all those other leaders opted for a referendum. Tons of people will vote NO for wrong reasons. Heck I even heard ppl saying the voted NO because of the Bolkestein directive, Which has nothing to do with the constitution. IMO the public doesn't know enough about the constitution to allow referendums. Plus I don't believe in it anywayz.

i wish we didn't joined it

why's that Clovie?

Personally I can't stand referendums; what is the point of having an elected democracy if you then have to go and consult the people on political decisions? Makes a mockery of the whole process; no wonder time gets wasted. The only referendum democracy needs is elections.

But the French will never stand for constituional change without public consultation.

then i would be able not to care about all these crap they said that joining the EU will help us...as for now it makes evewrything more complicated plus ppl don;t know how to get money from brussles, so it has no profits
and they're only telling us what we can't do

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Personally I can't stand referendums; what is the point of having an elected democracy if you then have to go and consult the people on political decisions? Makes a mockery of the whole process; no wonder time gets wasted. The only referendum democracy needs is elections.

But the French will never stand for constituional change without public consultation.

No probably not, I also feel as if the group in favor of the constitution got into the fight way too late.

Originally posted by Clovie
then i would be able not to care about all these crap they said that joining the EU will help us...as for now it makes evewrything more complicated plus ppl don;t know how to get money from brussles, so it has no profits
and they're only telling us what we can't do


Poland, certainly it's farmers will benefit greatly from joining the EU just wait and see. The EU is a big bureaucratie sadly enough, but big organisations, always do. That's why normal people shouldn't have to worry about this stuff.

well you guys knew that before you joined. IF you want to be part of the club you have to accept its rules

Originally posted by Fire
Poland, certainly it's farmers will benefit greatly from joining the EU just wait and see. The EU is a big bureaucratie sadly enough, but big organisations, always do. That's why normal people shouldn't have to worry about this stuff.

well you guys knew that before you joined. IF you want to be part of the club you have to accept its rules i was against joining it from thew very beginning but i wasn't allowed to vote
and our stupid gov has lied to ppl that we'll get a lot of benefits from joining it.

plus i'm afraid that if we didn't have joined they'd destroy our ecconomy.

Question

Who put forward the cConstitution? A country, a group of countries, an organisation....?

Europe would have destroyed your economy if you didn't join?
I find that pretty hard to believe.

Also I'm willing to bet heavily on the fact that joining the EU was a great move for Poland, it will just take quite a few years, but tons of countries in the union, objected to the expansion because it would cost them tons of money.

If the money would not reach the people of Poland, I think you should look at your government for corruption.


Dave the consitution was drafted by a special commity and then accepted by the European Commission, council and parliament

It was debated and argued over for a number of years before a senior French politician finally presented a finished version, which the EU heads of state signed, before putting it to ratification before their own states, which is the process now going on. The French ratification process has involved a referendum which has now failed, as it is also likely will happen in Holland.

Clovie, I very much doubt you would do better OUT of the EU.

Originally posted by dave123
Question

Who put forward the cConstitution? A country, a group of countries, an organisation....? no idea


Originally posted by Fire
Europe would have destroyed your economy if you didn't join?
I find that pretty hard to believe.

Also I'm willing to bet heavily on the fact that joining the EU was a great move for Poland, it will just take quite a few years, but tons of countries in the union, objected to the expansion because it would cost them tons of money.

If the money would not reach the people of Poland, I think you should look at your government for corruption. yes. not purpously. but it would be the result of it

we weren't ready to join it.

of course it is gov's fault.

True but the dutch prime minister could still decide not to listen to the result and push it forward anyway. Damn Balkenende won't have the guts to do it tho.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Clovie, I very much doubt you would do better OUT of the EU. i guess so

but it is just sad

Cheers

Is it me or do you just distrust any government clovie?

Wouldnt the constitution almost entirely make us lose our national identities though?

Originally posted by Fire
Is it me or do you just distrust any government clovie? i don't like any goverment. you're right.

I don't think so eggmayo, a consitution can never erase the differences between the member nations. France will never look, sound or smell like Italy and Greece will never feel like Finland.

@Fire
Yes, what you said about the France/Votes is right.

I think that some people are scared that their governments
and parliaments will lose control to the European Parliament in Bruxelles.

well that might happen over time but it will take many many many years. There are in fact very few areas of government in which a member nation still has sole autorithy, EU has something to say about almost everything. Also the part of government that is under total EU control is also very very small (but growing non the less)

Any process by which powers would be lost to Brussels is not really altered by the Constitution. If you fear that, the Constitution is not the problem. The SEA and Maastricht where the ones that put that together.

You are right there Fishy

I think NO

Originally posted by wuk es't
I think NO
explain please

i think that europe schould only work together economically
and we're ****ing paying for some guys in poland and these other countries i just think it's wrong

i'm totally anti-EU

I do hope politicians will see these no votes on the referenda to finally start explaining how much GOOD the EU does for its members.

If they would have started a decent campaign about it I think both countries would have voted yes.

Sometimes politics is like marketting you have to sell your idea to the public, something the EU and the UN do far too little.

Why?
Don't you think there is some ideal we should try to reach.
We are paying for people too. We don't get a lot of the EU right now but we might all have a better live in the future.

What has the EU done for us?????

ofcourse we'll all have a better live, but by countries like poland being in the EU, the EU (mostly western europe) can dictate a few rules over there, that will help our own economy.

How any Belgian can be against the EU is totally lost by me. the EU provides us with millions and millions of income each year. If the EU were to be dismantled thousands of people in Belgium would lose their job,

Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde and DHL would have been peanuts compared to that major crisis.

Originally posted by wuk es't
What has the EU done for us?????

Read my post, I imagine the situation in Belgium is roughly the same...

Not to mention that if Europe can become more unified it will be more powerful in the world which will give it a better position in the future, both politicly and economicly. Europe working together like its now and will in the future makes it easier to fight crime stop terrorism and all that shit that we couldn't do if we had to go threw 2 million laws

Originally posted by wuk es't
What has the EU done for us?????

You live in the past dude, ask "What will it do to us in the future".... plus you are from Belgium, you are like one of the countries that benefits most from the EU.

The EU has well offered belgium work for thousands of people. It's thanks to EU money that not all our farmers have been bankrupted yet. They provide us with a lot more easier trade with a lot more countries.

Originally posted by Bardock42
You live in the past dude, ask "What will it do to us in the future".... plus you are from Belgium, you are like one of the countries that benefits most from the EU.

As I just explained (we're lucky Brussels is one of the capitals of europe)

Belgium can do without the EU
The richest Europeans live in Belgium
jeez

and what about those thousands of people who's jobs depend on the EU staying in Brussels?

Wrong... Belgium will have a huge economic crash without the EU...

Why do you think the Benelux has expanded so far, and eventually became the EU? Becuase it worked because it had some great advantages... For Belgium as well as any other country that joined later on.

Originally posted by wuk es't
Belgium can do without the EU
The richest Europeans live in Belgium
jeez

Ask you this question
"Why do they live in Belgium?"

Cuz they were born in Belgium dumb ass
People would be much richer in Belgium without EU taxes

Originally posted by wuk es't
i think that europe schould only work together economically
and we're ****ing paying for some guys in poland and these other countries i just think it's wrong

i'm totally anti-EU excuse me. but you are not paying for any guys in poland.

we are paying to EU much more than we're getting back, so leave it out of this, ok?

Oh lets just forget about the advantages like lower taxes for import and export and the huge amount of money Belgium is making because of that.

Holland pays more to the EU then Belgium does a lot more and we still make a huge profit out of it...

wuk es't don't start insulting people.

We're paying for a ****ing system that's a slave of america and i should approve that?

Have you even read the constitution do you know what its about?

And the more powerful Europe becomes the less problems we will have from the US... The more Europe unites the more powerful it will become, something we'll need when China becomes a superpower

yea that's why the entire EU backed the US into going to iraq

But the Eu doesn't do a **** against china!

yea cause we can do so much about China. The chinese hardly use the international fora. Kinda hard to communicate with those

and the EU is actually planning to protect EU markets against Chinese low budget products

Just block china
No chinese products in Eu
Basta
probmem solved

Originally posted by wuk es't
Cuz they were born in Belgium dumb ass
People would be much richer in Belgium without EU taxes

Beledig geen mensen!nono

then they'll block european imports... trust me, that'll hit us hard. It's a market of more than a billion people we shut out

Originally posted by wuk es't
Just block china
No chinese products in Eu
Basta
probmem solved

Then the chinese will stop buying our products and go buy american products, it's the biggest market in the world, we can't just ignore them

Ah nee?

Originally posted by WindDancer
Beledig geen mensen!nono
spoiler tags cause you're afraid altavista might actually get a right grammar structure?

See, this is all proof that the idea of rejecting the constitution for being too capitalistic is like trying to ban a history book that talks of Hitler entering the Rhineland, on the idea that that would somehow make it not happen.

It's a done deal in the world!

mmm...

personally im against the centralisation of power that the new EU constitution would mean...the excuse of "its a tidying up exercise" is a misrepresentation of the facts...its is not merely a method of bringing previous legislation under a single constitution...it hands over very many countries individual rights that they currently have to Europe

Europe needs to do several things to improve its position in the world...firstly scrap the common agricultural policy which currently benefits the French and virtually no-one else

second...open up the European markets internationally and allow African nations to trade with Europe without having to compete against EU subsidised farms...thus helping tackle poverty

Europe needs to allow more free movement of Skilled workforces around withing the EU to allow a better distribution of Skills and therefor wealth within the EU

and it needs to scrap the Euro...its a weak currency and is being exploited by stronger nations (both by us Brits and the US)

and i'm actually really surprised that the french stood up against the EU...they're normally such "cheese eating surrender monkeys"

The EU seems to mean France.

As for the fisherman in the northern sea's, I don't see why scottish fisherman shouldn't fish where they have done so for god knows how long.

The EU would be under a different banner if it wasn't for Britain and America.

nvm, I'm done with this discussion

Originally posted by jaden101
mmm...

personally im against the centralisation of power that the new EU constitution would mean...the excuse of "its a tidying up exercise" is a misrepresentation of the facts...its is not merely a method of bringing previous legislation under a single constitution...it hands over very many countries individual rights that they currently have to Europe

Europe needs to do several things to improve its position in the world...firstly scrap the common agricultural policy which currently benefits the French and virtually no-one else

second...open up the European markets internationally and allow African nations to trade with Europe without having to compete against EU subsidised farms...thus helping tackle poverty

Europe needs to allow more free movement of Skilled workforces around withing the EU to allow a better distribution of Skills and therefor wealth within the EU

and it needs to scrap the Euro...its a weak currency and is being exploited by stronger nations (both by us Brits and the US)

and i'm actually really surprised that the french stood up against the EU...they're normally such "cheese eating surrender monkeys"

The Euro is not even an issue here.. It might suck, what am I saying it does... But it can have its usses later on. One coin can and probably will really help us in the future...

For the rest I agree with somethings and disagree with some others but you have to remember that this treaty will be an improvement and a step in the right direction... To make those things better, nobody said it was perfect nobody agrees with all of it. Nobody can hope to do so, but thats not what matters. Its a step in the right direction, one step we still have a lot to go but its better to take that step then to stand still hoping the finish line will come to us.

One more thing about country's losing authority on some things...

The things they lose is actually a good thing, a united European way to track criminals and what not will make it a lot easier to find them. When a company gets outlawed in the Netherlands because of illegal substances it won't be able to go to France or England anymore, and when we kick somebody out of this country nobody else will be able to accept them. A lot of the pollution in rivers here in Holland comes from Germany, with the EU we can work to stop that. With the constitution that will be even easier and faster. Without it we are just ****ed on that matter.

Economicly Europe will stand stronger against the other nations, overall I see so much more improvements then downsides, and there are downsides of course. But they can be removed in later treaty's that will definitly follow.

About the constitutional treaty

1 - It's not really a constitution, for the EU isn't a nation
2 - It is a treaty that formally set the EU and all the evolutions that have happened over the past few years (instead of being a sum of dozens of treaties).
3 - The EU negotiating process is kinda slowing down. The last conferences were failures. We need to go ahead.

About France's "no".

1 - Many people have opposed this treaty, not because it was bad, but to express their discontent towards the government, the whole French political world and Europe (seen as the cause of all problems)

2 - By and large, the most educated and informed people (living in the cities) and the upper classes have voted Yes. The only opponents there were so because they don't want such a free-market system. Free-market ideologies,called liberal here, aren't considered as logical or natural. That's more a anglo-saxon belief. Here keynesians theories still have echoes...

3 - The treaty is hardly understandable, so many people have taken advantage of that to confuse people. So some people voted "no" because they thought the treaty was authorizing a pre-entry of Turkey in the EU, was linked to the Bolkestein directive...they mixed it all up with all the EU policies.

The Netherlands= NEE!!!!!!!!!
Yes!

Stupid idiots all of them..

Well lets hope the second chamber has the guts to just ignore it and vote yes anyways

63 procent no!
And they're no idiots

Believe me I live in the country I can know...

Most named reasons for voting no

- We hate Balkenende
- Turkey shouldn't be in the EU
- We are afraid of terrorism
- The environment won't improve
- The Euro sucks

Balkenende won't resign, we would have kept our veto right for new members, terrorism would be easier to fight, there would be more environmental laws making it easier to fight pollution and the Euro has absolutely nothing to do with.

Most of the people that voted No are idiots... And 90% of the no voters voted for the wrong reasons, I only met one person who managed to give a good argument to vote no, and I actually persuaded the bastard to vote yes.

Ur idiot cuz ur saying that people who think otherwise are idiots
Idiot

Originally posted by wuk es't
Ur idiot cuz ur saying that people who think otherwise are idiots
Idiot

No i'm saying people are idiots because they don't know what this is all about and vote no to prevent things from happening that they want to happen.

They are voting no for the wrong reasons, if they actually read the constitution they wouldn't have voted No. I call those people idiots, well they basically are just ignorant bastards who should read and not follow somebody with a stupid hairstyle that changes his opinion on everything every five minutes if the polls say people like one thing more then another.

Ur still a idiot but that 'll be cuz ur from Holland
I understand

Originally posted by wuk es't
Ur still a idiot but that 'll be cuz ur from Holland
I understand

As long as we agree that Belgium's have moving trucks of 20 meters so that the garden hose can come along thats fine with me

WTF are ya saying
Ya can never understand the Dutch even not when they're talking English!

stop it!
you'll destroy my thread cry

Who cares about that, people should still have voted yes

The sad thing is that it won'T change anything basically, it will still work out as it has done before....it just slowed down the process of unification.

Here's a summary of the constitution by the way

Originally posted by Bardock42
The sad thing is that it won'T change anything basically, it will still work out as it has done before....it just slowed down the process of unification.

Here's a summary of the constitution by the way

sad? sad? If people actually knew what they were voting for and still would have voted no, then it would be sad. Now its just stupid that country's even held a referendum

If they're not informed enough about the constitution then damn right they should vote no. Why would u approve something ur not sure about. And if people dont know enough about it, then thats only the fault of the people who should be trying to sell it to them. Personally i dont think theres been enough discussion bout the constitution. I watch the news every day and i still dont know a damn thing about it. Yes i should read up on it, but i cant be bothered to sieve through endless pages just to get a few crappy details.

o wait u jus posted a summary....

how is that a summary! its 5 pages long.....

Originally posted by naybean
If they're not informed enough about the constitution then damn right they should vote no. Why would u approve something ur not sure about. And if people dont know enough about it, then thats only the fault of the people who should be trying to sell it to them. Personally i dont think theres been enough discussion bout the constitution. I watch the news every day and i still dont know a damn thing about it. Yes i should read up on it, but i cant be bothered to sieve through endless pages just to get a few crappy details.

Well yeah the governments did a crappy job of convincing people, they started far to late about all of Europe for that matter. But there were a lot of debates about it, that had incredibly low ratings..

The no party's did everything they could to give people a negative feeling about all of this, and the things they said were all beaten in debates... I watched them all...

Personally I think most people did a crappy job on telling us what the Constitution was all about. But if you don't know what its about you shouldn't vote at all, not vote no. Not for yes just don't vote. Let the people that know what its about decide

Originally posted by Fishy
sad? sad? If people actually knew what they were voting for and still would have voted no, then it would be sad. Now its just stupid that country's even held a referendum

Well yes,,, you could say the stupidity of some countries is sad.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well yes,,, you could say the stupidity of some countries is sad.

Well yeah that is sad

Originally posted by naybean
how is that a summary! its 5 pages long.....

Well the real thing is about 500 pages so its a lot shorter

Originally posted by naybean
how is that a summary! its 5 pages long.....

Well its what the commission gave out as a summary...and its easy written and quite understandable...fast to read too...and it brings the major points ....so you could call it a summary.

Originally posted by Fishy
Well yeah the governments did a crappy job of convincing people, they started far to late about all of Europe for that matter. But there were a lot of debates about it, that had incredibly low ratings..

The no party's did everything they could to give people a negative feeling about all of this, and the things they said were all beaten in debates... I watched them all...

Personally I think most people did a crappy job on telling us what the Constitution was all about. But if you don't know what its about you shouldn't vote at all, not vote no. Not for yes just don't vote. Let the people that know what its about decide ye but the prob wit that is theres a lot of ppl out there who dont know what theyr voting for and will vote yes. If its that great then they should have taken time convincing people it was the right thing to do but instead it just seems like theyr rushing it through so everyones gonna say no. If its that great an idea it will stick around and come back in 5 years time anyways.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well its what the commission gave out as a summary...and its easy written and quite understandable...fast to read too...and it brings the major points ....so you could call it a summary. see i want 1 page of bullet points telling me wat the whole thing means - thats a summary. But politics is never that simple.

Originally posted by naybean
ye but the prob wit that is theres a lot of ppl out there who dont know what theyr voting for and will vote yes. If its that great then they should have taken time convincing people it was the right thing to do but instead it just seems like theyr rushing it through so everyones gonna say no. If its that great an idea it will stick around and come back in 5 years time anyways.

Oh it will come back slightly altered and then it will pass...

But most people, at least in this country and in France voted no because they had no idea what it was about... Almost nobody voted yes because they had no idea what it was about... The general oppinion of Europe here sucks because the government never really told anybody about the advantages they just kinda thought people would pick up on it, well obviously most of them didn't

Well of course they are not...the world is not that simple...if people are to stupid toi inform themselves (I don't want to include you here, I don't know you, I am talking in general) then well maybe they shouldn't vote on too much...they often don't know whats best for them so the politicians have to protect them from themselves.

pfft... you guys are so convinced its the best thing - i will read up on the constitution properly when i have to vote for it. I dont like the idea of it cos from what little ive read on it it seems an awful lot of bullshit just to clean up the EU. Im sure the people who voted no did so because they had good reason. People dont need protecting from themselves - at the end of the day the gov will screw u over as much as everybody else.

Originally posted by naybean
pfft... you guys are so convinced its the best thing - i will read up on the constitution properly when i have to vote for it. I dont like the idea of it cos from what little ive read on it it seems an awful lot of bullshit just to clean up the EU. Im sure the people who voted no did so because they had good reason. People dont need protecting from themselves - at the end of the day the gov will screw u over as much as everybody else.

Yeah its to help the EU clean up their shit, isn't that a good thing? I'd rather have it cleaned up then stay there to annoy people.

Yeah but EC's jus gonna annoy people. Its already pissing people off and its not even created yet. If you need to clean up the EU then clean up the EU, dont give us a whole new constitution, just reinforce the old one. I got to go now anyways. bye

If people don't get something, they shouldn't vote. Voting no because you don't understand something is a very bad idea as well.

But the truth of the matter is this thing is too complex for the ordanairy joe to understand, so any referendum about this would be a bad idea.

Referenda (as proven in the past) only work on very clear black and white issues.

wuk es't, stop the nonsense, I dont want to warn tell you again.

Scrap that. A sock. Banned.

Back on topic now.

Originally posted by Fire
If people don't get something, they shouldn't vote. Voting no because you don't understand something is a very bad idea as well.

But the truth of the matter is this thing is too complex for the ordanairy joe to understand, so any referendum about this would be a bad idea.

Referenda (as proven in the past) only work on very clear black and white issues.

Exactly our government as well as the French made a huge mistake by making such a thing take place... Its really their own fault

True, and Balkenende won't have the guts to push it through

Maybe not, but the most powerful leader of the opposition here might...

He can pull it off if he gets the heads together.

But he's an idiot he actually said that if we voted no we should hold another referendum and try again... He's stupid... But if he makes a plan like that, if he has the guts then he might get enough support from other party's do it. I very much doubt it, but its possible...

If we are lucky however the exit polls are wrong and the results will drop around 55% no and the rest yes, in that case Balkenende left it up to doubt what he would do with the advise of the people... God I hope the exit polls are wrong, its the only real chance Holland still has

Johan Bos?

well the dutch have said no as well...

the constitution is dead...why

the European constitution is 400 pages and thousands of clauses

compare it with the US constitution of 33 clauses readable on 2 pages...

TO MUCH BULLSH*T

the US is a country, the EU is not and the US constitution was drafted over 200 years ago

Originally posted by jaden101
well the dutch have said no as well...

the constitution is dead...why

the European constitution is 400 pages and thousands of clauses

compare it with the US constitution of 33 clauses readable on 2 pages...

TO MUCH BULLSH*T
that's comparing lemons with bananas

the US is one single country (with relative freedom for the states), the EU is still more an idea to get a lot of countries closer together
and secondly: as GP said: it isn't a constitution in the first place

you mean...apart from the fact that its titled "the european constitution"

actually you're right though...it is a poor comparison with the US constitution because of the individual countries in the EU...but the fact that its called the constitution invariably brings the thought of the US constitution into the minds of the people of Europe...and what do they get from it...they seem to think its a way of making a united states of Europe...even if its not

the politicians have compounded the problem by failing to really explain to the people what the constitution is about...i can at least talk for britain on the fact of this in that during the election campaign the question of the European constitution was never brought up by any of the main parties...i dont even know if certain parties are pro or anti constitution because they have never tried to explain it to the public

hey, a belgian fat guy worked on it... what did you expect from him?

WHY do you compare it with the US constitution?

uuuhhh...because its called a constitution

Originally posted by jaden101
uuuhhh...because its called a constitution but almost every country on the world has their own constitution..so why with USA and not some other place?

because the European constitution is basically trying to form a united states of Europe by centralising power into an unaccountable and remote institution and take away sovereign nations right and ability ro govern themselves

i don't like this idea.

I like this idea

Originally posted by Bardock42
I like this idea why?
you're being independent for too long?

Originally posted by Clovie
why?
you're being independent for too long?

You don'T lose your independence it gets just brought to a bigger level.

The difference is, before there are like 40 million now there are 300 million ( I totally made up these numbers but you get the idea)

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don'T lose your independence it gets just brought to a bigger level.

The difference is, before there are like 40 million now there are 300 million ( I totally made up these numbers but you get the idea) but some ppl far away won't be thinking what is good for us, but what is good for them..
so in the end it will just make everything worse

Originally posted by Clovie
but some ppl far away won't be thinking what is good for us, but what is good for them..
so in the end it will just make everything worse

Sure because everything that happens in your country is for your best (note the sarcasm).

Especially for Poland the EU will makes things much better not worse.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sure because everything that happens in your country is for your best (note the sarcasm).

Especially for Poland the EU will makes things much better not worse. you're partly right.
but i'm not so sure if it will make anythig better than it is

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sure because everything that happens in your country is for your best (note the sarcasm).

Especially for Poland the EU will makes things much better not worse.

yeah...better for economic weaklings like poland and latvia...who will be subsidising these countries?...Britain...which is now officially the most expensive country in the world to live?...Britain...which country works on average the longest hours in the EU?...Britain...which coutry has the highest overall taxation in the EU?...Britain...

so no...i dont want to subsidise the lazy bastard spanish who think its acceptable to have a 4 hour lunch break every day because "it gets to hot to work"....get some air conditioning you lazy bassas

Good for you, but some people are more idealistic. They want to work for a brighter future, they subsidise countries if they need it (to be honest they do that because they will get more out of it in the long run). GB is just to ignorant to see that at the moment, they only think aboot their current situation, well thats ok, but IK can'T see how anyone from poland can be against the EU.

Originally posted by Bardock42
but IK can'T see how anyone from poland can be against the EU. look better

Originally posted by Clovie
look better

Well hmm the best source available to me is someone from poland (you if you are not getting it). Tell me then, why are you against it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well hmm the best source available to me is someone from poland (you if you are not getting it). Tell me then, why are you against it? coz we are not ready.

Originally posted by Clovie
coz we are not ready.

Could you specify that?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Could you specify that? after 40 years of living in the communist country, ppl are not able to take advantage of being in the EU

Originally posted by Clovie
after 40 years of living in the communist country, ppl are not able to take advantage of being in the EU

Well, its still a chance you might not get again. Poland is not supposed to suck the EU dry or anything, they should just move wwith it so everyone can live better

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, its still a chance you might not get again. Poland is not supposed to suck the EU dry or anything, they should just move wwith it so everyone can live better EXACTLY.
as i said: we are no ready for it.

Originally posted by Clovie
EXACTLY.
as i said: we are no ready for it.

Well you are asuming you would get a second chance, and the EU will take care of themselves they will give Poland what it needs.