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A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

The Jedi are at war! From the far corners of the galaxy the ancient Sith Lord Darth Revan as arisen, and leds a full scale invation of his Sith followers to Yavin IV to destroy the Jedi Academy.

Luke Skywalker seeing this in a vision of the Force, has prepared his Jedi for the invation. Revan has arrived and landed along with his followers on the jungle moon. The Sith are now running through the jungles to raid the Jedi Academy, but Luke Skywalker unkowningly to Revan leds the Academy in a defense strike.

The two groups have collide. Luke and Revan stare at each other for a moment, and then activate their lightsabers. At the same time they jump forward clashing their lightsabers together. Now you must decide the victor....

NJO Luke will kill him.
Well...I would like to see that fight...

luke

luke

Luke, but it would be one hell of a fight.

No, it would be pretty damn easy for luke

oh please, no more of this "NJO Luke Skywalker is god" crap.

He's not god, but he is a skywalker. Luke could have killed Revan by Empire Strikes Back.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
Luke could have killed Revan by Empire Strikes Back.

Yeah. Sure. Without any knowledge of lightsaber combat. Revan would have killed ESB Luke in 30 seconds without even using his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
He's not god, but he is a skywalker. Luke could have killed Revan by Empire Strikes Back.

What complete and utter nonsense. Even the youngling in ROTS would whip Luke's ass. Revan would simply annihilate him with a blink of an eye.

No. You're absolutely wrong. Luke had been trained by Yoda. By the end of the fight with Darth Vader, Vader was actually struggling a little rather than just letting luke win. Vader would not have to struggle against Revan, in fact, Revan would be chopped meat before he could ignite his lightsaber. remember what palpatine says in ESB:
"He could destroy us"
This is before luke has been trained, before any of that. These are by far the two most powerful Sith in the galaxy's history, afraid, actually afraid of Luke at this point. I don't recall Revan ever actually destroying the Republic and creating an empire out of it. Yet palpatine and vader did. And they're afraid, afraid of luke. Luke in ESB could beat Revan, possibly even with ease.

Vader was toying with Luke in the whole friggin fight. Just because Luke managed to land a blow, it didn't necessarily mean Vader was struggling. When Luke did hit him, Vader lashed out on him and it took him what, like five seconds to beat him?

Palpatine and Vader are not two of the most powerful sith in the galaxy, i don't know where you get that line of thought from. Revan was constantly at war, and slaughtered countless beings. Revan annihilated all the Jedi in combat and completely pwned the old republic. Palpatine on the other hand, had to use stealth to take over the republic. He is a politician with excellent manipulating skills, that's it.

As for Palpatine's "he could destroy us." 'Could' meaning he as the potential to destroy them. Luke could destroy them once he becomes a full-fledged Jedi Master. Luke in ESB had only weeks of training and it is justs laughable how you think he could defeat a sith lord like Revan. Palpatine certainly wasn't referring to Luke iin ESB.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
No. You're absolutely wrong. Luke had been trained by Yoda. By the end of the fight with Darth Vader, Vader was actually struggling a little rather than just letting luke win. Vader would not have to struggle against Revan, in fact, Revan would be chopped meat before he could ignite his lightsaber. remember what palpatine says in ESB:
"He could destroy us"
This is before luke has been trained, before any of that. These are by far the two most powerful Sith in the galaxy's history, afraid, actually afraid of Luke at this point. I don't recall Revan ever actually destroying the Republic and creating an empire out of it. Yet palpatine and vader did. And they're afraid, afraid of luke. Luke in ESB could beat Revan, possibly even with ease.

Sorry man...that is the most crappy try to argue I have ever seen:

a)
Vader did play with Luke in ESB. Luke was not even close to win against Vader or just stand a chance against him. That is what even Yoda says to Luke before Luke travels to Bespin.

b)
Vader wants to convince Luke to join the dark side not kill him.

c)
Vader and Palpatine the most powerful Sith in the galaxy's history ? Haha.

d)
They are afraid of what Luke might become not afraid of what he is.

okay I agree with at least some of all a, b, and d. You can laugh in C, but that's simply the facts. If you prefer to fantasize about darth revan or something, go right ahead but they are quite simply by far the most powerful sith in the galaxy's history. Without question. Period. A-true Vader did play with him at first. But as I said, by the end of the duel, he is actually struggling a little. That would not happen if Vader were fighting Revan. C and D are at least partially true but they both realize, as the emperor says, that even at that exact moment "the force is strong with him" and "there is a great disturbance in the force" indicating that luke himself is upsetting the ether of the force, way beyond anything Revan ever accomplished. Luke would win in ESB. Easily. In fact it would hardly be a contest.

Where on earth did it say Palpy and Vader were the two most powerful force users?

The force is strong with luke means Luke has the potential to become a very powerful Jedi. Luke in ESB was only beginning to discover his power. Palpatine felt a disturbance because Luke was starting his training and was starting to gain knowledge of the force. He was starting to become a Jedi, that is why Palpatine sensed it. Think about it, how come Palpatine didn't sense anything in ANH? Because Luke was only an ordinary farm boy, nothing more.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
You can laugh in C, but that's simply the facts. If you prefer to fantasize about darth revan or something, go right ahead but they are quite simply by far the most powerful sith in the galaxy's history. Without question.

Palpatine could do some force lightning, Vader could do some force grip. Watch the movies.

Palpatine admits that he is not as powerful as his own master Darth Plageis (so he had to murder him while he was sleeping). And Sith like Exar Kun and Naga Sadow are lightyears ahead of Palpatine and Vader.

No. Exar Kun and Naga Sadow are powerful and I love them-they're really cool characters. But in terms of sheer power of the force, none can rival Lord Vader and his master. Palpatine's death was part of a prophecy as old as the Jedi order itself. In fact both the Jedi order and the Sith order are centered around the prohecy of the chosen one. For the Sith the prophecy was a little different, but Episodes 1, 2 and 3 make it very, very clear that anakin is the most powerful in the force ever. Except possibly his children. Yes Darth Plagueis learned a special ability, that does not make him the more powerful-remember Darth Bane had a special ability too, as does Qui Gon. by the end of empire strikes back, luke is no longer a farm boy. He is on the road to becoming a Jedi. You forget, Mace, that Anakin slaughtered not only countless beings, but EVERY SINGLE JEDI, save for a small number. That's way beyond Darth Revan. or anyone else in the star wars universe for that matter. Except possibly Luke. I would say that Palpatine was a little bit more than a crafty politician. Deceiving the entire Jedi order, including Master Yoda, who was quite arguably the greatest Jedi ever, is no simple task. And Revan didn't quite become Emperor of the galaxy either. It doesn't matter how you do it, but whether you do it. Revan's whole thing was that he was a brilliant military strategist. So was General Grievous. You saw what Obi-Wan did to him (though I believe Revan could kill Grievous fairly easily as well). But ESB Luke caused the entire Force itself to tremble. This is way beyond petty little Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
No. Exar Kun and Naga Sadow are powerful and I love them-they're really cool characters. But in terms of sheer power of the force, none can rival Lord Vader and his master. Palpatine's death was part of a prophecy as old as the Jedi order itself. In fact both the Jedi order and the Sith order are centered around the prohecy of the chosen one. For the Sith the prophecy was a little different, but Episodes 1, 2 and 3 make it very, very clear that anakin is the most powerful in the force ever. Except possibly his children. Yes Darth Plagueis learned a special ability, that does not make him the more powerful-remember Darth Bane had a special ability too, as does Qui Gon. by the end of empire strikes back, luke is no longer a farm boy. He is on the road to becoming a Jedi. You forget, Mace, that Anakin slaughtered not only countless beings, but EVERY SINGLE JEDI, save for a small number. That's way beyond Darth Revan. or anyone else in the star wars universe for that matter. Except possibly Luke. I would say that Palpatine was a little bit more than a crafty politician. Deceiving the entire Jedi order, including Master Yoda, who was quite arguably the greatest Jedi ever, is no simple task. And Revan didn't quite become Emperor of the galaxy either. It doesn't matter how you do it, but whether you do it. Revan's whole thing was that he was a brilliant military strategist. So was General Grievous. You saw what Obi-Wan did to him (though I believe Revan could kill Grievous fairly easily as well). But ESB Luke caused the entire Force itself to tremble. This is way beyond petty little Revan.


What the hell ?
How often I do have to tell you. Vader ist NOT as powerful as RotS Anakin. He simply is not.
Exar Kun drained the life-force of an entire race.
Naga Sadow could play tennis with planets.

If Palpatine and Vader would have been the greatest Sith in history there would have been no need for them to construct two Death Stars. They just could have destroyed planets with their force powers. They could not. Naga Sadow could, Exar Kun could, Darth Nihilus could. Palpatine and Vader are LIGHTYEARS away from being the greatest Sith ever.

Darth Revan easily

Their power was prophesized at the beginning of both the Sith and Jedi orders themselves. I don't care what your opinion is. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force. Anakin was the power of the force. His duels, though they may not look like much, were of supreme galactic consequence, far beyond anything Naga Sadow or Exar Kun could do. Unfortunately, sapping the life force of an entire race is nothing compared to Vader. It took him more time, but he hunted down and killed the Jedi. Single handedly. that's a lot more powerful than sapping the life force of a few massassi warriors. Kun did that because the Jedi were about to assault Yavin 4. He did that because he was afraid of the Jedi. Vader was not afraid of the Jedi. The Jedi were afraid of him. That's why they scattered and hid. C'mon guys this isn't that hard. This is pretty elementary Star Wars stuff. Take the Death Star, which you mentioned. That wasn't Vader and the Emperor's toy, it was Tarkin's. And that's how they viewed it. A toy. a mere tool. And seeing as how we're talking about Luke, luke destroyed it with ease. Ok, that was before ESB, so if you want to get into specifics, by your logic Luke had the power of Naga Sadow by ANH. Now I don't agree with that, but I don't agree with your logic either. Again, this is all baby stuff. I knew all this stuff when I was a very little kid. Naga Sadow and Kun are awesome, but again, they're nothing compared to Vader and the Emperor. And Luke scared them. And Revan is nothing also-maybe he's something compared to Exar Kun, i don't know, but nothing compared to Naga Sadow. and the Emperor and Vader are way beyond that. Lucas called the Luke/Vader duel in ESB only "a slightly one-sided duel in which Vader had the advantage." Vader hunted down and killed EVERY SINGLE JEDI to reiterate, and that means he's way beyond any other Sith Lord ever, save perhaps his master. And Luke was only slightly outmatched. That means he could destroy Revan with ease, not in ANH, but by ESB.

You put alot of thought into that.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
Their power was prophesized at the beginning of both the Sith and Jedi orders themselves. I don't care what your opinion is. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force. Anakin was the power of the force.


And I tell you AGAIN: Vader is NOT Anakin. Cutting the legs of was cutting of part of his force powers. That is what Lucas said. Yes. Anakin in one part at full potential might have outmatched anybody in history. Vader does not. Palpatine does not. And Palpatine is not part of any prophecy.



Vader could have never done the things the ancient Sith Lords have. He could have if he ever reached his full potential. He did not. And exactly that is the point. And Exar Kun would have had to fight thousand of Jedi at once. Throw Vader into an arena with Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan and he will get killed within seconds. He is toast. He was killing Jedi one by one. Everyone single Jedi Master could have done this. Let him go up against 100 or 1000 of Jedi ALONE and he is toast...like anyone else would be.



There is realy NO (and realy NO) logic in your arguments. Palpatine and Vader (and I mention that again for you: Vader is NOT as gifted with the force like original Anakin is) are no match for any of the ancient Sith Lords. It is like simple like that.
And please give me the original source of Lucas saying the ESB duel is only "slightly one-sided". If he said that he is the worst director ever according to what we get to see in ESB.

Okay, for starters I'll address your last statement. The scene where he says that is in the extra features disk of the Star Wars Trilogy DVD's, in the special on lightsabers. Those are his words. Look it up. And if you think he's the worst director ever I am wondering why you are even on this forum.
Now I'll address your arguments backwards. Logic is taking certain given premises and using some basic rules to come to a conclusion. My premise, which is that Anakin is the Chosen One, is certainly true. Now we can add to that the fact that he has a higher midichlorian count than any Jedi ever. this doesn't mean that he is the most powerful with the force, simply the most in touch with it. Anakin also kills off all the Jedi. No other Sith or Dark Jedi was ever capable of doing this-Lord Kaan came close but the Jedi order survived. Put these three things together and you can deduce that he is more powerful than any Jedi or Sith ever was. That was one of the main points of the prequels as well, which you seemed to have somehow missed. I don't dispute the fact that he lost some ability to sense the force after his limbs were chopped off. I agree with that. He also becomes more experienced though. There are no holes and no logical fallacies in any of my arguments. Your argument that it "is as simple as that" IS however a logical fallacy, or rather is not even an argument at all but rather simply a statement that you are right and I'm wrong.
Now for the next point. "Let him go up against 100 or 1000 of Jedi ALONE and he is toast." Watch Episode III. It might change your mind. Rather than being attacked by the Jedi, as Kun was (and don't give me that shit about clones-they're no match for the jedi alone and Kun had a planet Massassi warriors; anakin didn't have that many with him anyway), anakin marches right into the jedi temple and wipes them out. "Throw Vader into an arena with Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan and he will get killed within seconds." While I would dispute the "within seconds" part of this, he would, no doubt die. But these again are three of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, and most important. (this could be a good thread if you put the emperor in this mix, on vader's side. We know that Obi wan and Yoda combined couldn't beat them, but with Mace Windu thrown in? Perhaps). Vader IS Anakin, but slightly less powerful (which doesn't mean much because he was already way the hell ahead of everyone save for a select few), and more experienced. There. It's final. And the point of all this: even ESB luke could beat Revan. I'm not going to reitirate all the reasons why.

side note: Kaan destroyed the army of light, but he used a thought bomb, and he was weak anyway. The Jedi Order itself stood strong after the seventh battle of Ruusan.

I know quite well who Revan is. He is a brilliant military strategist. Relatively he was extremely strong in the force. Yoda would have no trouble beating him. Mace Windu would have no trouble beating him. Obi-Wan would have no trouble beating him. The Emperor would have no trouble beating him. Darth Vader would have no trouble beating him. ESB Luke would have some trouble but eventually prevail. This is simple. Again, Revan used the Star Forge, which above someone said Vader and the Emperor relied on the Death Star. Yes, Revan brought the Republic to its knees, as did almost every great Sith Lord of the past. The only ones to ever actually go beyond bringing them to their knees were an army-sized group of Sith during the New Sith War until the Jedi came along and drove them out of the galaxy, and two, count 'em, two Sith: Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious. That is all. Revan was not even as powerful as Naga Sadow probably (though Sadow was pretty powerful)

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
Okay, for starters I'll address your last statement. The scene where he says that is in the extra features disk of the Star Wars Trilogy DVD's, in the special on lightsabers. Those are his words. Look it up. And if you think he's the worst director ever I am wondering why you are even on this forum.

I will do that when I have time. If this should be a "slightly one-sided" duel he simply did crappy work with it. Vader could have killed Luke in a dozen situations there.



You logical failure is that you compare Chosen One Anakin to Darth Vader. Darth Vader is by far not as powerful as Anakin is. According to Lucas he has 80 % of Palpatines powers. And Palpatine might be as powerful as Yoda. And Yoda is surely clases above both Vader and Palpatine when it comes to lightsaber fighting. Mace Windu also as we can see him beat Sidous in RotS.
So what do you want to tell me. That Vader has to be the greatest Sith Lord because he WAS (not IS) the Chosen One from the prophecy ?
Sure he killed many Jedi one by one but as I said: Every single Jedi Council Member could have done this so that proves exactly nothing.



I did watch Episode III. What does Anakin do ? Killing some Jedi that were totaly suprised that he was turning against them ? If you are the greatest fighter of all times and you are thrusting me 100 % and I would fire you a bullet in the back of you head. Would I be the greatest fighter of all times then because I killed you ?
And if the clone warriors were no match for the Jedi you surely can explain to me how all the Jedi Master got killed by clone warriors. And you can see that 4 of them have enough firepower to kill Ki-Adi-Mundi who is facing their attack. That guy could have taken down the Jedi Temple without Anakin by outnumbering the Jedi.



Vader is by far not Anakin and he is FAR less powerful. 80 % of Palpatine / Yoda is almost nothing to the power that Anakin had or could have had (he is above Yoda in force potential). And ESB Luke is not Vader.
Revan is almost far above everyone except a hypothetical full potential Anakin and NJO Luke and this two are far above what Vader was or what ESB Luke was.

Revan would kill Vader.
Revan would kill ESB Luke.

He would surely get killed by full potential Anakin or NJO Luke but not Vader and ESB Luke. Each of them against Revan would be like one 13 year old padawan trying to kill Yoda.

I'm really getting tired of this. Naga Sadow was chased off by the Jedi and hid in isolation for centuries. Exar Kun was chased off by the Jedi and had to turn himself into a force ghost to escape. Darth Vader attacked the Jedi in the temple, killing many of them at a time as we saw in the hologram in Ep. III, and later he hunted down and killed all the Jedi. Revan is probably not as powerful as either Naga Sadow or Exar Kun. Palpatine, as you stated, could be considered more powerful than Vader. He's certainly more experienced. Anakin was the Chosen one. Vader was the Sith'ari, both are the same person unless you believe Obi-Wan's point-of-view thing in ROTJ.
Palpatine might be as powerful as Yoda? Again, did you even watch Episode III? Were you half asleep? And it is not a logical failure to compare Darth Vader to the Chosen One! He is the Chosen One! That's the point of all of Star Wars in cinema so far! My God!
As for this: "And if the clone warriors were no match for the Jedi you surely can explain to me how all the Jedi Master got killed by clone warriors. And you can see that 4 of them have enough firepower to kill Ki-Adi-Mundi who is facing their attack. That guy could have taken down the Jedi Temple without Anakin by outnumbering the Jedi." Certainly you must at least concede there was more than four of them. And you forget, there's not just one clone army, there's also the droid army. Can a Jedi kill two armies, if taken totally by suprise, as you yourself stated (many didn't even have a chance to turn on a lightsaber). Now Anakin's raid on the temple may have caught the Jedi off balance, but he still killed many of them. And no, obviously a clone army is no match for the Jedi temple. George Lucas's son demonstrated that even if the temple were full of lowly padawans, they would kill all the clones with very few casualties. I thought the Jedi Masters died too quickly, but anyway they were taken by suprise and they had two armies against them. And ESB Luke would easily defeat Revan. No effort required.

some good depates here

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
I'm really getting tired of this. Naga Sadow was chased off by the Jedi and hid in isolation for centuries. Exar Kun was chased off by the Jedi and had to turn himself into a force ghost to escape. Darth Vader attacked the Jedi in the temple, killing many of them at a time as we saw in the hologram in Ep. III, and later he hunted down and killed all the Jedi. Revan is probably not as powerful as either Naga Sadow or Exar Kun. Palpatine, as you stated, could be considered more powerful than Vader. He's certainly more experienced. Anakin was the Chosen one. Vader was the Sith'ari, both are the same person unless you believe Obi-Wan's point-of-view thing in ROTJ.


Yeah. I hope you are getting tired of this.
a)
Darth Vader in RotS did a surprise attack. Got it ? What you can see on the hologram in RotS is that he killed Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti and killed some Padawans. What a hero...

b)
Revan is probably more powerful than Sadow and Exar Kun. He killed almost the entire KOTOR Jedi Order and did become MORE powerful after doing so.

c)
Palpatine is not "considered" to be more powerful than past RotS Vader. Lucas himself says that he is only 80 % of Palpatine. And past RotS Vader is not any longer the Chosen One. Yeah he might be the Sith'ari as the Sith'ari is said to end the Sith order. But prophecy does mean exactly nothing when you compare the power of some people.



Yeah what ? Yoda counters everything Palpatine throws at him. Palpatine tries to run away because he FEARS a duel with Yoda. Give them a battle in some sort arena and Yoda will turn Palpatine into a peace of meat. No doubt here.



Man. Are you that stupid ?
Vader after RotS is not even half of the Chosen One. Get it. Palpatine says that he might become more powerful than Yoda and Palpatine together in RotS so he drops from 200 % Palpatine to 80 % Palpatine. So what do you want ? He loses more than half of his force potential with his legs cut off and nearly his entire body burned. That is simply a fact. He is not the greatest Sith Lord of all time he is not on one level with Yoda and Palpatine.



Yeah. Right. And a paramecium would outsmart you. No effort required.

Vader "might" be the Sith'ari? Jesus. As for Yoda, why didn't he try to face palpatine again? ("failed I have" that's why. The book explains it more.) He did suprise the Jedi. But as you can see in the hologram, their lightsabers were ignited. They weren't all defenseless, obviously. Revan may be more powerful than Kun (he certainly caused more damage) but not Sadow. Sadow nearly commanded the Sith Empire, which rivaled the Republic at its height. Vader's Empire went way beyond the Republic. The only reason the Rebellion won was because of Luke. Luke could beat Revan by ESB. Nuff said.
"Vader after RotS is not even half of the Chosen One." This is obviously a point that doesn't require any further argument. Any child who has ever seen the end of Return of the Jedi knows he's wrong.
"Yeah. Right. And a paramecium would outsmart you. No effort required." Nice, you have really proven me wrong there. How logical. You have just committed one of the most elementary logical fallacies, and I believe I have won the argument. I hope you're done...

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
Vader "might" be the Sith'ari? Jesus.

I thought you have watched EP III. Did you watch a different movie or have you also seen Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan thinking that the prophecies might have been missunderstood ?



Revan had more Sith artifacts, more knowledge, more fighting experience than any Sith Lord before him. And by FAR more than Sidious/Vader. You know that he is considered to be the greatest Sith Lord ever, do you ?



Cool. So you say that Lucas - the creator of this whole story - is wrong because you have to be right. Nice argument. Yeah. Great. You totaly got me there. lmao.

Okay. first of all you talked about George Lucas. He has stated very clearly (need a source-the Vanity Fair article) that Anakin is the Chosen One of ancient legend, and that he was created by the Force. What would be the point of these movies if this wasn't the case. So I say once more you don't know jack about star wars. My turn to demand a source. Where does it say he's the greatest Sith Lord ever? Yay he has more artifacts. How wonderful. "Cool. So you say that Lucas-the creator of this whole story-is wrong because you have to be right." No, I'm saying you're wrong. Lucas himself has stated that Vader is the Chosen One. Again, that's the whole point of Star Wars, although I think you may have missed it. I'm not contradicting him, I'm saying his central characters are more important and more powerful than some over-hyped Sith Lord in some video game. You're contradicting him by claiming Anakin isn't the Chosen one. What Lucas said, and what I have never argued against, is that Anakin became less powerful after his limbs were cut off. That's perfectly true. What does that have to do with him beating Revan? Nothing. He could still beat Revan, as could Luke by ESB.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl

Man. Are you that stupid ?

Yeah. Right. And a paramecium would outsmart you. No effort required.

There is no need for hostility. These responses are more thoughtful than most of the ones I've ever seen. The insight of all of the posters here is clearly extremely acute and powerful. Therefore, let's agree that everyone has made excellent contributions and admit that both of you, Darth Crazo and Nai Fohl, have made several excellent points worthy of recognition.

I hope that we can all share mutual feelings of civility and friendship.

amen dipsit. I almost slipped a couple of times because of how agitated Fohl was making me, but I tried to keep it relatively civil. Thanks a bunch for your words of wisdom.

It's hardly words of wisdom it's just good advice

Lets get back to the subject, though Darth Crazo you are dicussing good debates, but lets get back to Luke vs. Darth Revan.

revan

well here is my two cents:

first off, I am not sure, but Lucas may have been being sarcastic in the ESB fight, that is the only thing I can think of.

second, why are we debating if ESB Luke can kill Revan (he cannot, but that is beside the point), this is NJO Luke vs Revan, and unfortunally this seems to have been forgotten. Unless the thread has been changed and I am mistaked. If it is NJO Luke vs Revan, Revan looses, however it would be a good fight.

At least most people here acknowledge that the fight would at least be close, Crazo thinks ROTJ Luke and Vader can take anyone in any universe.

The fight would be close, but Lord Revan's superior knowledge, experience, will, and tactics would cause him to win imo.

Sweet, Crazo has been banned, that guy freaked the hell outta me.

Yeah, hopefully he's gone for good...

hes a goner

good

I'm willing to admit that I'm a bit of a biased Revan fanboy but that doesn't change certain key facts.

1.Revan knew the most about the both jedi and sith then anyone ever. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

2. He invented/learned thousands of ways to kill jedi and sith. As I said before he learned everything there was to know but not only that he created ways. Revan literally killed or turned every single jedi/sith that ever opposed him, hell he doesn't need to beat luke with a lightsaber (which he could) he could probably turn him to the darkside, it wouldn't be that hard Revan had done it thousands of times before, he'd just kill those luke cared for and play with his mind at every chance he got, Revan quite literally either knew or invented every single method the known to either defeat or turn a jedi.

3.Battle precognition. that's right revan could see the futur, but far more than almost any jedi. Revan was literally able to see the final outcome of entire wars even thoughs that lasted for years. Revan would know where luke's every saber stroke would land and be able to counter with a lethal blow almost every time.

4.Experience. Not hard to figure out Revan won every war he ever fought in almost single handedly he destroyed the mandalorians at the peak of their power and they were no pushovers I mean jango fett who was far from the best mandalorian killed 12 jedi barehanded, and jango fett pretty much effortlessly anhilated them. He then brought the republic to it's knees anhilating their entire army under the command of jedi and generals far superior to thos of a couple thousand years later. But that's not all he then destroyed the sith empire which by the way had infinite ressources troops and countless sith which he cut through like butter, as well as a sith lord whos power surpassed almost every single sith that followed. all that with like a quarter of the knowledge which he then regained and used to control an entire flipping sun that's right not just a star a sun (I know a star is a sun but it's much larger and i mean MUCH) to kill almost every jedi and then he went and took on the sith empire pretty much singlehandedly till the exile came along.

4. Ability. Revan had powers that after he died,(assuming he did as a true sith never dies SUPPOSEDLY) were never seen again, deathfield,kill,force storm,destroy droid just to name a few no sith lord following revan could ever us lightning on more then one target let alone kill someone,choke yes but just kill no. Revan also had mastered every single form of lightsaber combat he had a form like no other as he literally combined them all to suit his needs,(I don't know this as a fact i will admit but why know them all if he wouldn't use them?) so with greater force knowledge and lightsaber form he has a definite edge.

I'm a little long winded so know I'll have to explain certain things about anakin for those who obviously don't know very much (no offense meant)

1. He didn't live up to his potential. He COuld have been the most powerful force user ever but when obi-won cut off his legs that potential left him and Revan had arguably nearly as much if not the same amount of potential as him, just look at what kreia said about him and so on, I won't repeat it on the grounds that emperor Revan has listed them in many other debates the difference being he reached his full potential and I'd say even exceeded it.

2.Being the chosen one doesn't make you God it only means that you will bring balance to the force no where does it say in the prophesy that the chosen one would be the most powerful it only means he'll bring balance to the force. He did but I remind you that killing one sith lord with less then a tenth of the power of Revan doesn't make you the best. on the topic of luke he was only 80% as powerful as anakin but he reached his full potential which was about equal to revan the only difference being that Revan had alot more experience and a million times more knowledge of the force and lightsaber comment.

I will make one final point I sincerly apologize for writing so much but this luke is the strongest bs isn't true again really really sorry, here's my final point.

While Luke knew a great deal about the jedi he didn't know much about the sith. Revan not only knew more about the jedi but he also knew every single detail about the sith and his ability to manipulate his knowledge of both sides wheras luke is only relying on the light which is half the power of the true force.

wow. Long post

Yes, its long and with exaggerated facts. Luke would rule

If you're going to say luke would rule please offer facts it may have been a long post but it offered facts, I'm not saying luke isn't good,revan was just better

Darth Revan couldn't take on thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warriors and their powerful leader to live and tell about it afterwards, as Luke did. Don't get me wrong Darth Revan is powerful and very talented in the ways of the Force...I like him, but if he goes up against Luke Skywalker he would not prevail. Why? Because Luke Skywalker was trained in so little time to accoplish so much, like helping the Rebel Alliance defeat the Empire, arose the Jedi Order from extinction with little knowledge of the Jedi ways and of how to teach Jedi ways. The Jedi Academy later defeated the "Shadow Academy", which was a Academy for Dark Jedi and Luke beat their leader in a duel. Also Luke defeated the Emperor's Clone, and slain thousand of Yuuzhan Vong warriors(like said above) in one match. There is no question about it that he could defeat the Ancient Dark Lord of the Sith.

Now that's more like it good reasons, but there are a few things, first Revan still has greater knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat equal potential more experience and battle precognition. True luke accomplished a lot in a short period of time true he was the most powerful JEDI ever but as for the vong thing the truth is Revan was never in a situation like that so you can't really say but what he did do was kill hundreds if not thousands of sith in the star forge destroy an entire droid army as well as withstand the full power of the greatest darkside artifact ever (arguably) he also singlehandedly defeated the mandalorians killing hundreds of them in combat. I'm not saying luke isn't powerful I'm just saying Revan was extremly extremly powerful and is in my opinion equal if not superior to luke.

well I agree with Luke winning, however I will post some facts about my reason:

1) Like stated above, Luke was able to charge through the entire Yuuzhan Vong HQ, basically on his own (yes Jacen and Jaina were with him, but it says in TUF that they did almost no work). Since this is the place where the YV leader is, there would be thousands of Vong, maybe even 10 000 or more, yet Luke wasted them all.

2) After doing that, he faced off against 7 or 8 slayers, can't remember which, either way it is impressive, Kyp who is supposedly very powerful could not even take one and he landed dozens of hits. Yet Luke was able to kill them with one hit, that means he is either exceptionally strong, or he was powering his weapon with the force.

3) Then he defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own would be a match for many jedi.

4) In the final YV battle, Luke used an unknown power, to instantly kill a slayer. It is described as being like green sparks (so maybe force lightning). Jaina also describes him as being like the centre of the force. The force flowing through him, he was like a malestrom of force energy, unstoppable. Jaina also described him as being calm and focused, and his blade with like 10 or 20, all moving at the same time, with one purpose.

5) Luke was also able to manipulate black holes and gravity.

6) Luke was also able to knock down AT-AT's like they were nothing, he could also destroy entire armies with the force.

7) In the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke removed an entire planet from view using the force, he said it should last indefinently. He was also able to make himself invisible and unable to be sensed through the force. Also in the Black Fleet Crisis Luke rebuilt Vader's old fortress, he also made it invisible. He did all this with out being sensed through the force, and this is on Courscant.

8) Luke also trained underneath the clone emperor, so he would know about the sith as well as the jedi. Luke also defeated the Emperor's force storm, which was massive and able to destroy ships.

9) After defeating the clone emperor, Luke discovered an ancient jedi library, with long forgotten knowledge. Luke also didn't restrict his knowledge to just the jeid, he hunted all over the galaxy, searching for knowledge and power from everyone he met. Luke also learned under the emperor and used the emperors library (which contains sith knowledge from over 1000 years). Yes I know Revan did this as well, but I am pointing it out because it greatly reduces Revan's advantage

10) Finally, Luke deflected the emperors lightning for a bit in RotJ, this was the first time he had ever seen this power so the fact that he could deflect it for a bit when it was the first time he had ever seen it is very impressive. Even more so when you consider that Yoda even had some trouble deflecting it in RotS. This is to point out that Luke could deflect anything that Revan would throw at him.

And yes people could use force lightning on more than one person, Jacen does it against the Vong in Destiny's Way.

Also, Revan's ability to predicte the future is not perfect, if it was he would have known Malak was going to betray him.

Over-all, Luke wins.
We simply do not know enough about Revan and his powers, other than the fact that he was smart, to say that he would win. One final point, being smart does not translate to strength in battle. I have a 98% average, but I would loose in a fight to probably 70% of the guys in my grade.

Darth Frobo: Thanks for the shout out and great post by the way. Same to Revan Darkstar.

Also to Revan Darkstar's post, Revan didn't predict that his apprentice would betray him because it was his apprentice that was weaker than him, and I don't think he would've suspected it from afar while being distracted by the Jedi. Or there's the possibility that he knew he would ultimately become stronger and he let all of that happen but it is unlikely.

Now you also said "We simply do not know enough about Revan and his powers" so I hope you don't think Marka Ragnos or Tulak Hord could beat either of these two because we know basically a couple of one-sided sentences about them.

But anywho, we know a lot more than he was smart, he defeated everyone he ever fought, including Mandalore, the most famous Echani, two Sith Lords, hundreds of dark Jedi and plenty of assassin droids. We know a lot more than just "he's smart" but they're both so powerful this fight could swing in either's favor really quick.

Revan DarkStar alone I think decided the victor of this battle. Very good post.

You're probably going to call me a n00b and a complete idiot for saying this but as previously stated revan singlehandedly destroyed every single sith on the star forge including the droids and the full power of the star forge itself which pretty much equals lukes triumph over the vong, as malak was at the time the most powerful force user in the galaxy next to revan. Revan also was able to suck the very life force from multiple beings through the force. killing through the force was nothing for revan who did it all the time and many of his other powers were lost when he dissapeared, though NJO did some pretty impressive stuff. also Revans superior lightsaber technique and knowledge of pretty much every force power ever whether jedi or sith and complete knowledge of every minuit detail about both gives him a better shot than alot of people are giving him credit for especially those "Luke hands down" retards.

Oh yah and awseome post darkstar dude u 2 plagues it feels good to argue with someone competent

come on one more for revan come on...

Luke.

jerk lol

lol

luke deflecting sidious' lighting attack in RoTJ? since when? he was screaming in pain begging his pops to help him out.

Revan Darkstar is referring to the special edition book in which Luke reflects it for a moment or so before falling down. We are in the EU section here.

ah

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Revan Darkstar is referring to the special edition book in which Luke reflects it for a moment or so before falling down. We are in the EU section here.

EU however does is not more important then movies... Seeing as the movies contradict it, the statement of Luke reflecting the lightning is just falls.. Sorry can't help it, it just is.

Doesn't really mean much then ROTJ Luke wouldn't be able to even come close to any of the Ancient Sith Lords. NJO Luke can possibly defeat them all or he would stand a pretty good chance against them.

actually even in the script it says that Luke was supposed to deflect it for a while, sorry I can't remember where I read that, but I did somewhere

Yeah but it was changed, and movies are still more important then EU at least in direct contradiction... But still why would you care?

Would you care if a 10 year old Revan lost from Rots Obi? I wouldn't? Would you care if Exar did the same? I wouldn't... You can't compare the two

Originally posted by Fishy
Doesn't really mean much then ROTJ Luke wouldn't be able to even come close to any of the Ancient Sith Lords. NJO Luke can possibly defeat them all or he would stand a pretty good chance against them.

I agree. Just wanted to say that (I think NJO Luke is a very controversial character for some peope).

I know that RotJ Luke would loose to Revan (badly I might point out), I was just saying that if he could deflect lightning after only being trained for 2-3 years, after 30+ more years of training he could deflect anything that Revan would throw at him

not necessarily he hasn't fought someone with half as much power as revan moves like death field can't really be blocked

No movie version of Luke could beat Revan ...Eu version when hes at his peak there arent many that could withstand Luke....They would need to combine somehow from many many departed Sith spirits power into one being (revan in this thread)to stand a chance....That goes for Revan or any ancient sith as far as Im concerned...Noone in EU ever reached Lukes level.....sucky as that may be for Luke haters appears to be truth...I could care less for Luke ..hes cool and all but not my fav character I dont think...to many others I would like to see with his level powers

yes, I was not trying to say that RotJ Luke could beat Revan, if you'll read my other post you will see that I said that

Originally posted by Revan Darkstar
well I agree with Luke winning, however I will post some facts about my reason:

1) Like stated above, Luke was able to charge through the entire Yuuzhan Vong HQ, basically on his own (yes Jacen and Jaina were with him, but it says in TUF that they did almost no work). Since this is the place where the YV leader is, there would be thousands of Vong, maybe even 10 000 or more, yet Luke wasted them all.

2) After doing that, he faced off against 7 or 8 slayers, can't remember which, either way it is impressive, Kyp who is supposedly very powerful could not even take one and he landed dozens of hits. Yet Luke was able to kill them with one hit, that means he is either exceptionally strong, or he was powering his weapon with the force.

3) Then he defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own would be a match for many jedi.

4) In the final YV battle, Luke used an unknown power, to instantly kill a slayer. It is described as being like green sparks (so maybe force lightning). Jaina also describes him as being like the centre of the force. The force flowing through him, he was like a malestrom of force energy, unstoppable. Jaina also described him as being calm and focused, and his blade with like 10 or 20, all moving at the same time, with one purpose.

5) Luke was also able to manipulate black holes and gravity.

6) Luke was also able to knock down AT-AT's like they were nothing, he could also destroy entire armies with the force.

7) In the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke removed an entire planet from view using the force, he said it should last indefinently. He was also able to make himself invisible and unable to be sensed through the force. Also in the Black Fleet Crisis Luke rebuilt Vader's old fortress, he also made it invisible. He did all this with out being sensed through the force, and this is on Courscant.

8) Luke also trained underneath the clone emperor, so he would know about the sith as well as the jedi. Luke also defeated the Emperor's force storm, which was massive and able to destroy ships.

9) After defeating the clone emperor, Luke discovered an ancient jedi library, with long forgotten knowledge. Luke also didn't restrict his knowledge to just the jeid, he hunted all over the galaxy, searching for knowledge and power from everyone he met. Luke also learned under the emperor and used the emperors library (which contains sith knowledge from over 1000 years). Yes I know Revan did this as well, but I am pointing it out because it greatly reduces Revan's advantage

10) Finally, Luke deflected the emperors lightning for a bit in RotJ, this was the first time he had ever seen this power so the fact that he could deflect it for a bit when it was the first time he had ever seen it is very impressive. Even more so when you consider that Yoda even had some trouble deflecting it in RotS. This is to point out that Luke could deflect anything that Revan would throw at him.

And yes people could use force lightning on more than one person, Jacen does it against the Vong in Destiny's Way.

Also, Revan's ability to predicte the future is not perfect, if it was he would have known Malak was going to betray him.

Over-all, Luke wins.
We simply do not know enough about Revan and his powers, other than the fact that he was smart, to say that he would win. One final point, being smart does not translate to strength in battle. I have a 98% average, but I would loose in a fight to probably 70% of the guys in my grade.

These reasons given by Revan DarkStar give all the reasons we need to prove NJO Luke Skywalker would be the victor...

not necessarily no one has yet dissproved my reasons also in previous posts i've mentioned things that revans done that are equal to many of these I'm just 2 damn lazy to re-type them so if you want to see them go read my other posts.

Originally posted by Revan Darkstar
well I agree with Luke winning, however I will post some facts about my reason:

1) Like stated above, Luke was able to charge through the entire Yuuzhan Vong HQ, basically on his own (yes Jacen and Jaina were with him, but it says in TUF that they did almost no work). Since this is the place where the YV leader is, there would be thousands of Vong, maybe even 10 000 or more, yet Luke wasted them all.

2) After doing that, he faced off against 7 or 8 slayers, can't remember which, either way it is impressive, Kyp who is supposedly very powerful could not even take one and he landed dozens of hits. Yet Luke was able to kill them with one hit, that means he is either exceptionally strong, or he was powering his weapon with the force.

3) Then he defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own would be a match for many jedi.

4) In the final YV battle, Luke used an unknown power, to instantly kill a slayer. It is described as being like green sparks (so maybe force lightning). Jaina also describes him as being like the centre of the force. The force flowing through him, he was like a malestrom of force energy, unstoppable. Jaina also described him as being calm and focused, and his blade with like 10 or 20, all moving at the same time, with one purpose.

5) Luke was also able to manipulate black holes and gravity.

6) Luke was also able to knock down AT-AT's like they were nothing, he could also destroy entire armies with the force.

7) In the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke removed an entire planet from view using the force, he said it should last indefinently. He was also able to make himself invisible and unable to be sensed through the force. Also in the Black Fleet Crisis Luke rebuilt Vader's old fortress, he also made it invisible. He did all this with out being sensed through the force, and this is on Courscant.

8) Luke also trained underneath the clone emperor, so he would know about the sith as well as the jedi. Luke also defeated the Emperor's force storm, which was massive and able to destroy ships.

9) After defeating the clone emperor, Luke discovered an ancient jedi library, with long forgotten knowledge. Luke also didn't restrict his knowledge to just the jeid, he hunted all over the galaxy, searching for knowledge and power from everyone he met. Luke also learned under the emperor and used the emperors library (which contains sith knowledge from over 1000 years). Yes I know Revan did this as well, but I am pointing it out because it greatly reduces Revan's advantage

10) Finally, Luke deflected the emperors lightning for a bit in RotJ, this was the first time he had ever seen this power so the fact that he could deflect it for a bit when it was the first time he had ever seen it is very impressive. Even more so when you consider that Yoda even had some trouble deflecting it in RotS. This is to point out that Luke could deflect anything that Revan would throw at him.

And yes people could use force lightning on more than one person, Jacen does it against the Vong in Destiny's Way.

Also, Revan's ability to predicte the future is not perfect, if it was he would have known Malak was going to betray him.

Over-all, Luke wins.
We simply do not know enough about Revan and his powers, other than the fact that he was smart, to say that he would win. One final point, being smart does not translate to strength in battle. I have a 98% average, but I would loose in a fight to probably 70% of the guys in my grade.

He killed Vong. Yay. And Revan did no that Malak was going to betray, just not when. And about the library thing and all the knowledge Luke got, that isn't anything compared to Revan. Revan had the greatest lightsaber dueler ever, Tulak Hord, holocron. Luke could've of gotten any of this stuff because it was either destroyed by Malak, by the Jedi, or by Sidious.

Luke's force powers are great and all, but the only way to settle this is through a lightsaber duel. From what Revan would know from all the things he had available to him, he would be the much smarter one. He would have known Ancient Sith techniques and Jedi techniques that Luke couldn't have dreamed about. Revan, being the smart bastard he is, woul taught Luke into something stupid. And with the Skywalkers, it's not that hard.

Sorry darkstar I posted while you did and didn't really see what you wrote my bad and to plagues the person who gave all those reasons still thinks revan would win he's just saying it wouldn't be a complete ass kicking like revan vs. almost anybody else (notice the almost) all i can say is...All hail lord Revan...All hail lord revan...All hail lord Revan (infinite fleet of sith warships bomb plagues home then Revan sends HK-47 after him.)

Hmmmm? Yep Luke could beat Revan in a lightsaber duel (instant replay)...box

sure... despite the fact that Revan has mastered every single form of lightsaber combat can forsee his opponents next moves and learned how to fight from the greatest swordsmen ever. p.s please return my HK assasin droid to me i need him eliminate certain french teaching meatbags

Revan had a talent for fighting, a skill that only Echani had, not even Jedi... He didn't make mistakes in combat he knew how to fight... Luke couldn't take that

Darth Revan is powerful...I like him, but compared to NJO Luke Skywalker he would die. Because in the final Yavin battle, Luke used an unknown power, to instantly kill a slayer. If Luke used that power agianst Revan, in which Revan has no knowledge of, Luke would win. Another reason is, while dueling Luke Skywalker was so calm and focused in the Force, his niece Jaina explained it that he look as if he had 10 or 20 lightsabers in hand. Also he could used the Force to turn a planet into an unseen body, he attacked a Yuuzhan Vong outpost, which had thousands of the warriors and the Surpreme Overlord inside and Luke wasted them all. By himself! And Luke can manipulate black holes and gravity...Luke could win this one no problem...

Unknown power to Luke...

Who says it was unknown to Revan? Or to Ragnos? Sadow? Kun? Bane? Ulic Qel Droma? Malak? A lot of knowledge was lost during time...

revan attacked the Star Forge alone, cut himself threw hundreds of Dark Jedi who were all stronger because of the Dark Side and then killed an incredibly powerful Sith Lord about 8 or 9 times in a row...

Revan also has the power to instantly kill, and how do we know that power isn't specific to slayers, for the black holes and hiding planets revan knew pretty much everything there was to know about the force, truth be told he didn't need to do that stuff so he didn't and anihalting a star forge's worth of sith and battle droids as well as the defenses of the star forge itself then killing the most powerful sith lord in the galaxy by himself equals destroying a vong outpost, Revans superior saber skill and knowledge of all force powers ( as previously stated he didn't use some of them because there was no point, I mean he could control a sun through the force he could control the otherthings he just had no reason too, also being able to control blackholes and all that wouldn't help much in a duel.)

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
1.Revan knew the most about the both jedi and sith then anyone ever. He plundered the tombs of all the powerful sith lords and soaked up every piece of knowledge there was to know, as well as learning all there was to know about the jedi, hell he learned how to fight from tulak hord marka ragnos and naga sadow, Revan pretty much knew every single combat trick the ancient jedi and sith ahd to offer.

Does Revan realy now that much ? Look what time he had to become familiar with Sith teachings. He got in contact with that for the first time at the end of the Mandalorian wars. That is 3960 years BBY and he disappears 3955 years BBY. Since he was turned back to the light side in 3957 BBY he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith.

Now compare that to Luke. He had at least 20 years from Dark Empire to NJO times to study Sith teachings. He had an entire Sith library, several Jedi Holocrons and he was instructed by Palpatine/Sidious who had 90 years of time studying the Sith.



That is somehow fanboyish. Sorry. Revan beating NJO Luke with a lightsaber is nearly impossible. NJO Luke in lightsaber combat might be seen as a mixture of more force power than Yoda had combined with the physical strength of Anakin/Darth Vader and 30 years of fighting experience (Revan doesn't have that much).

And turning NJO Luke to the Dark Side is impossible since NJO Luke does not even believe in the Dark Side. He can utilize his "darker" feelings as a weapon for the light side (like Mace Windu with his Vaapad).



Luke has the ability to make himself unable to be sensed through the force. Revan can't use prediction against him since he would fight something like a black hole in the force while Luke would have more lightsaber training and could use his prediction abilities against Revan. Revan is pretty much toast.



Now...what should this tell to us ?
NJO Luke always was engaged in combat or conflicts for the last 30 years of his life. He defeated the Galactic Empire he defeated the YV (killing 1000s of them alone in a single battle). Controlling a sun ? Pff... NJO Luke can control black holes, any kind of gravity, can wreck entire starfleets with force power.
And where did Revan defeat the Sith Empire ? It is said that he wanted to do that. Did he ? Nobody knows.



a)
Luke has much greater abilites than Revan and he is able to stop everything Revan could use on him.

b)
Lightsaber combat is not only about the knowledge of fighting styles. There is a scene in the book about Darth Maul where Yoda demonstrates something to some Padawans. He is without a weapon and gets attacked by Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Dipa Billaba and none of them can even touch him. NJO Luke would surely be able to do the same thing with Revan.




Anakin and Luke and all the people with Skywalker blood in their body are totally out of any discussion when it comes to "potential".



See above when it comes to "force knowledge" and "lightsabers"...Luke had by far more time for learning than Revan had.



You simply have no clue about Luke. He learned everything about the force. Not just the light side. That is the basic information that leads to his NJO philosophy that there is no dark side of the force just people who do "bad" things with the force when they get carried away by their emotions. He "instakills" enemies during the NJO books. That is nothing a "true" Jedi would do not even think about. NJO Luke is somewhere in a "grey zone" between dark and light using anything he can to serve the light side not caring about if it are Sith abilities (like Force Lightning) or Jedi teachings.
That is the difference between Luke and all Jedi/Sith before him. The ones before him would only stick to the powers that were said to match "their" side of the force while Luke is using both without completely following the philosphy of one side.

wow

Revan had more sources to learn from, and after the Star Forge he got his memory back so that means about what 30? 35 years? thats more then Luke his 20. And with how much Revan wanted to learn, seeing as it was the only thing he cared about, always learning always testing his strength and his knowledge he probably learned a lot more in those 25 years then Luke did in his 20...



Okay, so saying that Revan will beat Luke with lightsaber is fan boyish, saying it the other way around is nothing out of the ordinary however? When Revan learned from pretty much every source he could and actually faced a lot of Jedi and Dark Jedi in his time... Luke fought with a lightsaber but there is a difference between killing normal people and lightsaber experts...



The force has nothing to do with it, its an Echani gift that he is, only far better then them... Luke doesn't really get much out of this... Only makes him tired.



Your right he did defeat the Vong... He never defeated the Galatic Empire however and hasn't faced incredibly powerful force users and not in great numbers. Revan has, this gives Revan an advantage over Luke because he knows how to fight force users...



Based on what? Even if he is superior then he isn't that much more powerful, and Revan still has superior lightsaber skills no not only becuase he knows the forms. But because he actually just them fighting against Sith and Jedi... Lots of them and powerful one's.



To bad he didn't...



According to Kreia, neither does Revan. He just does whats necessary. And he knows both sides of the force so this could very well be true besides Kreia would probably know.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Does Revan realy now that much ? Look what time he had to become familiar with Sith teachings. He got in contact with that for the first time at the end of the Mandalorian wars. That is 3960 years BBY and he disappears 3955 years BBY. Since he was turned back to the light side in 3957 BBY he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith.

Now compare that to Luke. He had at least 20 years from Dark Empire to NJO times to study Sith teachings. He had an entire Sith library, several Jedi Holocrons and he was instructed by Palpatine/Sidious who had 90 years of time studying the Sith.



That is somehow fanboyish. Sorry. Revan beating NJO Luke with a lightsaber is nearly impossible. NJO Luke in lightsaber combat might be seen as a mixture of more force power than Yoda had combined with the physical strength of Anakin/Darth Vader and 30 years of fighting experience (Revan doesn't have that much).

And turning NJO Luke to the Dark Side is impossible since NJO Luke does not even believe in the Dark Side. He can utilize his "darker" feelings as a weapon for the light side (like Mace Windu with his Vaapad).



Luke has the ability to make himself unable to be sensed through the force. Revan can't use prediction against him since he would fight something like a black hole in the force while Luke would have more lightsaber training and could use his prediction abilities against Revan. Revan is pretty much toast.



Now...what should this tell to us ?
NJO Luke always was engaged in combat or conflicts for the last 30 years of his life. He defeated the Galactic Empire he defeated the YV (killing 1000s of them alone in a single battle). Controlling a sun ? Pff... NJO Luke can control black holes, any kind of gravity, can wreck entire starfleets with force power.
And where did Revan defeat the Sith Empire ? It is said that he wanted to do that. Did he ? Nobody knows.



a)
Luke has much greater abilites than Revan and he is able to stop everything Revan could use on him.

b)
Lightsaber combat is not only about the knowledge of fighting styles. There is a scene in the book about Darth Maul where Yoda demonstrates something to some Padawans. He is without a weapon and gets attacked by Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Dipa Billaba and none of them can even touch him. NJO Luke would surely be able to do the same thing with Revan.




Anakin and Luke and all the people with Skywalker blood in their body are totally out of any discussion when it comes to "potential".



See above when it comes to "force knowledge" and "lightsabers"...Luke had by far more time for learning than Revan had.



You simply have no clue about Luke. He learned everything about the force. Not just the light side. That is the basic information that leads to his NJO philosophy that there is no dark side of the force just people who do "bad" things with the force when they get carried away by their emotions. He "instakills" enemies during the NJO books. That is nothing a "true" Jedi would do not even think about. NJO Luke is somewhere in a "grey zone" between dark and light using anything he can to serve the light side not caring about if it are Sith abilities (like Force Lightning) or Jedi teachings.
That is the difference between Luke and all Jedi/Sith before him. The ones before him would only stick to the powers that were said to match "their" side of the force while Luke is using both without completely following the philosphy of one side.


Revan doesn't now that much, he 'knows' that much. And your being completely arrogant. Revan had a thrist fro knowledge all his life. Revan learned fives (Maybe 4) times as much as Lke.

Revan came across alot more information than luke did, he pretty much learned from every single ancient sith lord as well as everything the jedi knew and he used both which put him in as much of a grey zone as luke revan didn't have as much time maybe but he certainly learned more, as for it being impossible for Revan not to beat NJO in lightsaber combat isn't that a bit on the fanboyish side? luke was great with a saber and all but revan simply had so much more knowledge and practice with/against lightsabers that he'd quickly find a flaw in luke's form than rutheleessly exploit it, also the ability to get look to get angry and do something stupid is definitly possible he is after all a skywalker... as for Revan being inferior with his force powers that's not true at all where do you think luke got all his knowledge from people like Revan who'd soaked up knowledge from people like sadow (who could make stars go supernova well beyond merley controlling gravity which isn't such a big deal, by throughing things with the force you're controlling gravity in a sense, controlling a sun is definitley a big deal and all these special powers that luke had were known to revan he just never had a need to use them how can i say this if i never see revan use them it's quite simple, he literally knew almost everything there was to know about the force. finally on the topic of revans battle pre-cog that's not as much a force ability as an echani ability never mind that luke isn't completely invisible to the force all the time he was only invisible at certain times and duringg a duel with revan he wouldn't have the time to be able to make himself invisible. when revan fights he pretty much lets the force fight for him so luke avoiding Revan like yoda avoided those other jedi is a joke, and for your luke had more time to learn arguement let me ask you this, if someone studied for a test for 3 days but studied 20 hours a day opposed to someone who studied 5 days for 5 hours a day who would have studied more and consumed more knowledge, it's not hard to figure out Revan devoted his entire life to learning about the force so anything luke could throw at him would be old news.

NJO Luke could kick Revan's tail, just read Revan DarkStar's posts and Nai Fohl's. Its contains all the evidence we need to know who would win.

Darkstar himself admits that Revan would win and read some of the points backing revan nothing luke could do would be new to revan and revans accomplishments are just as great now add his amazing lightsaber ability and you'll realize that Revan could probably win.

I am undesided right now. I'm just going to throw some facts/opinions out.


Here are some common misconceptions about Revan.


1. He knows everything.

Have we, as a race, gotten dumber over time. NO. We've gone from being retardedn nomads to using fire and stone tolls to cheap computers and leaving the planet. We. as a race, have definatly gotten smarter over time. I see no reason for this to have happened in the SW universe.

Also, why does everyone think that ALL knowlege is found in Malacor V. It is never said to encompass the entire planet. It may have less knowlege than a holocron for all anyone knows.


2. Fighting through the Star Forge is as much as Luke fight through the Yuuzhan Vong headquarters.


Firstly, Yuuzhan Vong are a warrior species who use melee weapons called amphistaffs. Fighting with Yuuzhan Vong is like going against another lightsaber weilder because they use melee weapons.

Luke killed more melee people in one fight than Revan probably killed in his entire life.

Also, if you count, Revan killed less than two hundred people total aboard the Star Forge. This is even all lightsaber weilders, most of them use guns or are droids that suck. And they dont just suck because you are playing as a very powerful character, it's because they are droids.


3. Revan is the only one who could hit more than one person with force lightning.


I am just going to say it right now, this is major bull crap. jacen Solo could do it and hit several people. Sure Jacen was pretty powerful after Tratior and his teachings from Vegere. And dont forget that he fought more people than many other JEDI MASTERS.

Sidious never had more than one person that he wanted to hit, and the Exile was also able to do this. Dont forget Kreia, Handmaiden, Atton, Bastila, the Seer(cant remember he name), Mira, Bao-dur, Juhani, Jolee, ect.

4. Revan killed Malak, the most powerful person alive other than Revan at that time, 8 or 9 times.


I have read Revan both LS and DS on different occasions is canon. Since he seems in later ones to be neither, he can probably use both types of powers. This means that he probably used death feild on the Danttoine Jedi and only had to beat Malak twice and had all of those Jedi's strenght as his own.


5. Revan got all of his knowlege back after the Star Forge.


Never confirmed. It says rhat he remembered something that he had found in the Unkown Regions and left to find it. It never says that he remembered everything afterwords, just that one thing.


That isn't all that I could go into but I dont feel like doing more for now.


Common misconceptions about Luke.


1. He sucks cause I don't like him.


A lot of people say this it is really gay. How much you like a character has nothing to do with their power.



2. He has almost no experince.


First I will say non-force user experince. Luke may have more experince than Revan actually. He fought the Empire for more than a decade. He then fought the Yuuzhan Vong for another couple of years.

Here are some of the force users that he fought.

The Jensarri.
They are not mentioned much, but in "I, Jedi", Luke drops five of them, not even trying, in under twenty seconds. Granted these arent the most powerful forceusers, but they are still pretty good.

Darth Vader.
Many people say that Vader wasn't trying, but he still did some work. Luke learned a lot from these fights.

Darth Sidious.
He helped to kill the freakin Emperor. Sidious is one bad mofo. He sucked in ep3 with a lightsaber, but his force powers kick butt. Luke withstood a lot of his force lightning and was able to carry a half metal person probably a mile or so condiereing I doubt Sidious would have his office type thing by a possible invasion point(the hanger).

Joruus C'baoth.
Probably one of the most underated characters in SW. He was a clone of Jorus C'baoth, who was a very powerful Jedi Master. Joruus was able to control 37000 minds by himself. Luke managed to beat him, although Mara killed him.

Luuke.
Imagine fighting a replica of youself. YOu would see a lot about how you fight and it would later allow you to get better. Sure Luke didn't kill him either, Mara again, but Luke beat him. (I really hated in those books how Mara was the one who actually kills all of the bad guys.)

Emperor Reborn
I dont know if Luke ever fought this guy because I havent read those books.

Shimera
Another character that people dont even know about, or underate him a lot. He is basicly a DLOS except over a species of Warriors. Finaly someone Luke actauly kills.

Gantorius.
Now Gantorius sucks by himself and Luke never even tried to kill him and had little difficulty blocking his hits, but I put this one in to show that he has beaten someone taught by an Ancient Sith already. Yes, Exar Kun was guiding Gantorius just as Obi-wan guided Luke against Vader on Mimbarri(the place where Luke found that Kyber Crystal).

Yes, I know that Splinter of the Minds Eye is considered an infiniti, and is non-existent even in EU, but the part about the Kyber crystal and that weird old lady is in EU.

3. Luke knows nothing.

Luke knows a lot. Not as much as Revan. He knows a lot though. He has looked at atleast to holocrons. The one Leia found on the Emperor Reborns body, and the one that Exar Kun destroyed. He also found a hidden Jedi Library. He was trained by Yoda, Obi-wan, Joruus, Emperor Reborn and many force ghost.



I will add more later, I am just to lazy.

Despite what I have said, I am still undecided.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I am undesided right now. I'm just going to throw some facts/opinions out.


Here are some common misconceptions about Revan.


1. He knows everything.

Have we, as a race, gotten dumber over time. NO. We've gone from being retardedn nomads to using fire and stone tolls to cheap computers and leaving the planet. We. as a race, have definatly gotten smarter over time. I see no reason for this to have happened in the SW universe.

Also, why does everyone think that ALL knowlege is found in Malacor V. It is never said to encompass the entire planet. It may have less knowlege than a holocron for all anyone knows.


2. Fighting through the Star Forge is as much as Luke fight through the Yuuzhan Vong headquarters.


Firstly, Yuuzhan Vong are a warrior species who use melee weapons called amphistaffs. Fighting with Yuuzhan Vong is like going against another lightsaber weilder because they use melee weapons.

Luke killed more melee people in one fight than Revan probably killed in his entire life.

Also, if you count, Revan killed less than two hundred people total aboard the Star Forge. This is even all lightsaber weilders, most of them use guns or are droids that suck. And they dont just suck because you are playing as a very powerful character, it's because they are droids.


3. Revan is the only one who could hit more than one person with force lightning.


I am just going to say it right now, this is major bull crap. jacen Solo could do it and hit several people. Sure Jacen was pretty powerful after Tratior and his teachings from Vegere. And dont forget that he fought more people than many other JEDI MASTERS.

Sidious never had more than one person that he wanted to hit, and the Exile was also able to do this. Dont forget Kreia, Handmaiden, Atton, Bastila, the Seer(cant remember he name), Mira, Bao-dur, Juhani, Jolee, ect.

4. Revan killed Malak, the most powerful person alive other than Revan at that time, 8 or 9 times.


I have read Revan both LS and DS on different occasions is canon. Since he seems in later ones to be neither, he can probably use both types of powers. This means that he probably used death feild on the Danttoine Jedi and only had to beat Malak twice and had all of those Jedi's strenght as his own.


5. Revan got all of his knowlege back after the Star Forge.


Never confirmed. It says rhat he remembered something that he had found in the Unkown Regions and left to find it. It never says that he remembered everything afterwords, just that one thing.


That isn't all that I could go into but I dont feel like doing more for now.


Common misconceptions about Luke.


1. He sucks cause I don't like him.


A lot of people say this it is really gay. How much you like a character has nothing to do with their power.



2. He has almost no experince.


First I will say non-force user experince. Luke may have more experince than Revan actually. He fought the Empire for more than a decade. He then fought the Yuuzhan Vong for another couple of years.

Here are some of the force users that he fought.

The Jensarri.
They are not mentioned much, but in "I, Jedi", Luke drops five of them, not even trying, in under twenty seconds. Granted these arent the most powerful forceusers, but they are still pretty good.

Darth Vader.
Many people say that Vader wasn't trying, but he still did some work. Luke learned a lot from these fights.

Darth Sidious.
He helped to kill the freakin Emperor. Sidious is one bad mofo. He sucked in ep3 with a lightsaber, but his force powers kick butt. Luke withstood a lot of his force lightning and was able to carry a half metal person probably a mile or so condiereing I doubt Sidious would have his office type thing by a possible invasion point(the hanger).

Joruus C'baoth.
Probably one of the most underated characters in SW. He was a clone of Jorus C'baoth, who was a very powerful Jedi Master. Joruus was able to control 37000 minds by himself. Luke managed to beat him, although Mara killed him.

Luuke.
Imagine fighting a replica of youself. YOu would see a lot about how you fight and it would later allow you to get better. Sure Luke didn't kill him either, Mara again, but Luke beat him. (I really hated in those books how Mara was the one who actually kills all of the bad guys.)

Emperor Reborn
I dont know if Luke ever fought this guy because I havent read those books.

Shimera
Another character that people dont even know about, or underate him a lot. He is basicly a DLOS except over a species of Warriors. Finaly someone Luke actauly kills.

Gantorius.
Now Gantorius sucks by himself and Luke never even tried to kill him and had little difficulty blocking his hits, but I put this one in to show that he has beaten someone taught by an Ancient Sith already. Yes, Exar Kun was guiding Gantorius just as Obi-wan guided Luke against Vader on Mimbarri(the place where Luke found that Kyber Crystal).

Yes, I know that Splinter of the Minds Eye is considered an infiniti, and is non-existent even in EU, but the part about the Kyber crystal and that weird old lady is in EU.

3. Luke knows nothing.

Luke knows a lot. Not as much as Revan. He knows a lot though. He has looked at atleast to holocrons. The one Leia found on the Emperor Reborns body, and the one that Exar Kun destroyed. He also found a hidden Jedi Library. He was trained by Yoda, Obi-wan, Joruus, Emperor Reborn and many force ghost.



I will add more later, I am just to lazy.

Despite what I have said, I am still undecided.

Very good points as for certain aspects about Revan you are mistaken though (no offence) practically all the knowledge Revan had was lost we didn't see any jedi in anakins time who could control an entire sun most of the knowledge from Revan's era simply dissapeared.

2. If you've played Kotor 2 you'd realize that malachor was pretty much a warehouse full of sith holocrons it's shown and kreia says it.

3. We do know as a fact Revan got his memory back later in Kotor 2 there's a holocron with bastilla saying that revans previous memories returned to him.

4. Luke killed more in one battle than Revan did in his entire life, um...no. First off Revan killed thousands of mandalorians and fought his way through them to kill their leader and like the vong the mandalorians are a warrior race. Next Revan turns on the republic and kills tons of jedi, gets mind wiped then kills thousands of sith solidiers destroys a military base a sith academy full of force users a sith embassy full of jedi masters, anhilates an entire alien race, kills a temple full of jedi then destroys every sith aboard the star forge including an entire droid army (in the game they don't show all the droids he actually kills.) hundreds of sith special forces and hundreds of apprentices before defeating either bastilla drawing power from the star forge or 3 sith masters followed by taking on the full full fury of the star forge itself which is possibly thousands of droids than malak the second most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time before going to fight the sith empire (which we don't know if he succeeded or not yet) and possibly killing the exile.

Finally I would like to remind everyone that anything luke could throw at revan force power wise would be old news to him and that Revan is a far superior lightsaber fighter for reasons I've said before that I'm too lazy to repost.

p.s thank you glentract for being competent and knowing what you're talking about.

first off, Frobo, I can't remember saying that Revan would win, actually I think he would loose after a good fight, if I said this differently else where I apologize and retract that statement.

Now about your post:

Yes I agree that he got all his memories back, however like Nai Fohl said, he didn't have that long to learn about the sith on Malachor

Also, how do we know Revan did lots of fighting, we know he was the STARSHIP commander of the republic forces in the Mandalorian wars, we know he killed all those guys on the star forge, Malak, Bandon, Yusanis and Mandalore that is it. About Revan fighting his way through all the Mandalorians and Echani, possible, but it is equally possible that he sent in a dozen jedi to clear out the place before hand, then him Malak and the Exile walked in, Revan killed on person and walked out. It even says that he sent HK-47 after Mandalore, so he certainly wasn't above sending other people in to weaken his oppponet.

Also, I would like to point out that the echani thing is not infalliable, if it was then the best echani warrior would not have died. Also the exile beats up the handmaidens easily. I don't mean the one that comes with you either I faced off against all 5 at once and won easily. So the echani thing is not infalliable.

Also, it is impossible for Revan to know everything about the sith. Alright lets say he studied for 8 hours a day when he was a padawan. Thats nice and all, but he was a padawan, he would not have been allowed to view the most powerful jedi stuff, the things reserved for masters. Heck, if he was lucky he would have seen some basic knight stuff. This is also not disputing Kriea, he was still thirsty for knowledge, but he only mastered the padawan and say half the knight stuff. Then, lets say he became a knight at 18. He was then sent on more missions, but still dedicated 6 to 8 hours a day studying (I thinks that a bit much but still...). Ok, he masters the knight stuff as well. Then he went and fought in the Mandalorian wars. Little room for learning of the force there. The wars ended and he started to learn from Malachor. I think there were 3 years between the mandalorian and sith wars. So even if he studied for 2 of those years (remember he spent some time hunting down the maps and the star forge and getting it to obey him and produce ships, I'm guessing it took a year for that). And say he spent 8 hours a day training himself and 4 training Malak. Even with that he simply could not have read through and mastered everything about the sith. Remember it takes 10 years to master the weakest lightsaber form, it would take a long time to master those powerful force techniques as well. Then he marched off to war again and was soon captured. After defeated Malak, he spent one year at Korriban, but he would have learned little new there, he already knew much of it from Malachor. Then he regains his memerories and that is that last we know of him (so far). So he simply could not have known everything about the jedi and sith.

Luke on the other hand trained for 30 years, but he had no restrictions on his knowledge. Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to be the best so they tought him as much as they could of war. He continues to train from their holocrons. After that he trains under the Empeor and gets his libary with 1000 years of sith knowledge (Revan's sith libary also only had 1000 years of knowledge). The difference is that Luke kept his and trained with it for 25 years longer than Revan did. He also found an ancient jedi libary and trained with it for 25 years.

Also it is impossible for him to have mastered every lightsaber form, it takes 10 years to master the weak form VI. Say 15 to 20 for all the others, and Revan was around 30, no matter how much he worked, he could have mastered 3 forms at best. And this also would have made him a complete lightsaber master IN HIS DAY. For my guess is that there were only three forms, the basic duelling one (form I), the advanced duelling one (form II), and the defense one (form III), other people have already argued this, and it makes sense and I agree with them.

About Revan being able to make Luke mad because he is a skywalker, just because Anakin get mad easily (only in episode 1, 2 and 3 though, in the OT he is much calmer), that does not mean Luke will get mad easily. Jaina describes his fighting style as calm and focused. Not something that brings to mind a rage is it?

Also, about the jedi in Anakin's time not blowing up suns, first off that is a sith power, secondly, they were trying to save the galaxy, not destroy it.

About your question, well I will answer with another question. If you were studying for a test and studied for 5 days, 8 hours each day, and your rival was studying for 25 days at 6 hours each day, who will do better and has more knowledge?

"...practically all the knowledge Revan had was lost we didn't see any jedi in anakins time who could control an entire sun most of the knowledge from Revan's era simply dissapeared."

If you look at the planet, you can see there are many ares of it that dont have a library on, like when you go there from the crashed Ebon Hawk. It is probably underground, but it can't take up a lot of space for several reasons.

1. If it was large enough, the planet would not have enough gravity to hold itself toghether and would be at least not spherical and more likly fly apart.

2. There are many gas vents on the planets. These are probably continuly releasing gas because it dosen't make sense for them to release gas only when you are there. These must also take up space and the space would most likly be on the surface, lowering the amount of space for a storage room, shrinking it even futher, again causing the planet to fly apart.


Anyway, you still havent shown why they got dumber over time. we also havent seen any Jedi in anytime control suns. I know you mean force users in general, but no one from Revan's time controlled a sun. I know Naga Sadow could do it and have heard Exar Kun could do it, but no one from Revan's time that I know of could do it.


"...If you've played Kotor 2 you'd realize that malachor was pretty much a warehouse full of sith holocrons it's shown and kreia says it."

See above. Plus, I know there is a lot from KOTOR 2 that probably isnt coming to mind, but I have played it three times already.


"...We do know as a fact Revan got his memory back later in Kotor 2 there's a holocron with bastilla saying that revans previous memories returned to him."


I will check on this one. The holocron is damaged in the blast if your lightside right?


"....Luke killed more in one battle than Revan did in his entire life, um...no. First off Revan killed thousands of mandalorians and fought his way through them to kill their leader and like the vong the mandalorians are a warrior race...."


Revan was the leader, he wasn't doing the up clode and personal fighting like Luke did. I am not sure how he killed that Mandalore, but if on Tatooine you get the Ysuunis(?) Brand, it says that after Revan killed this one Senator or something(it was someone political) he challenged him and was killed in the fighting.


"...Next Revan turns on the republic and kills tons of jedi, gets mind wiped then kills thousands of sith solidiers destroys a military base a sith academy full of force users a sith embassy full of jedi masters, anhilates an entire alien race, kills a temple full of jedi then destroys every sith aboard the star forge including an entire droid army (in the game they don't show all the droids he actually kills.)..."


He dosent kill all of them by himself. He has a third of the Republic military under his command. He also has most of the Jedi from the war on his side.

I assume the military base your talking about is the one on Taris. There was maybe eighty troops in there. There was also that one Sith Governor, but you had Bastila and Carth(that was who I had on my first time) to help you. I'm not saying he couldn't have done it alone, just that he had help.

I am also going to assume that the academy is the one on Korriban. There was about fifty of these REALLY weak force users in there. I mean come on, most of them had just been accepted and had maybe a weak of training. That really isn't much. Kreia even says in KOTOR 2 that she is horrified by the amount of knowlege wasted on those weak stupid fools.

I'll also assume that the embassy is the one on Maanan. Those guys again sucked. Nothing special and there was still less than a hundred in there including the regular troops.

The race I presume is the Rakatan. Well just to let you know, he didn't wipe them out. IN KOTOR 2, there is an item to improve wisdom that says that a species resurfaced that say they were responsible for Revan's huge fleet. They also were not very numerous. Less than a hundred again.

There was also in that Temple about thirty people. Moslty Knights. I think there was like one Master in the whole place. He once again had two people helping him.

This next thing is something commonly though that is very wrong. People think that he killed everyone aboard the Star Forge. He DID NOT KILL EVERYONE ON THE STAR FORGE. H killed only enough to make his way to Malak and fight him. Even the small number of people that he killed was less than two or three hundred. Malak even says specificaly to that one guy(Presumably a master from his armor) to send the apprentices at Revan. "Send the apprentices at him. Master will that be enough to stop him. Of course not, but it will give me time to prepare myself." Or something like that.

You also lack proof that they didn't show all of the droids. Janus will probably say "Lack of proof is not proof of absence", but "lack of proof is not proof of proof". What the hell did I just say? Whatever. Since we didn't see those droids, it dosen't really matter. If that is an inference(like most of what I've said.) Then plese say so or give me a link if you can find it please. You've spiked my intrest.


"...hundreds of sith special forces and hundreds of apprentices before defeating either bastilla drawing power from the star forge or 3 sith masters followed by taking on the full full fury of the star forge itself which is possibly thousands of droids than malak the second most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time before going to fight the sith empire (which we don't know if he succeeded or not yet) and possibly killing the exile."

Like I said before, they aren't shown, so you shouldn't pull people out of the air like that.

Also, those three guys aren't necessarly Masters, they are simply three people he chose to become his students much like Asajj Ventress, Komari Vosa, and Grevious were to Count Dooku. Ventress was beaten by Anakin when He was still a padawan.(I know Maul was killed by a Padawan as well.) Vosa was a maverick force user killed by Jango.

Also, the 'Full fury of the Star Forge" was if you are relativly smart, like Revan would be, atmost 64 droids. Less if you already had comspikes with you.

He killed Malak. Well, there isn't much to say about that.

And, he went to fight the True Sith Empire and killed the Exile. Well, since we haven't seen anything about it yet, I won't personaly count that, you can if you want to. Luke also is dead, but I dont count events he hasn't done yet.


So Revan killed less people in his entire life than Luke killed in one battle. Most of the people Luke fought were also stronger than the ones Revan fought.

"Yuuzhan Vong were on average over twice as good as a Republic soldier."

Looks like I started posting before Darkstar posted.(ate a snack.)

Originally posted by Revan Darkstar
first off, Frobo, I can't remember saying that Revan would win, actually I think he would loose after a good fight, if I said this differently else where I apologize and retract that statement.

Now about your post:

Yes I agree that he got all his memories back, however like Nai Fohl said, he didn't have that long to learn about the sith on Malachor

Also, how do we know Revan did lots of fighting, we know he was the STARSHIP commander of the republic forces in the Mandalorian wars, we know he killed all those guys on the star forge, Malak, Bandon, Yusanis and Mandalore that is it. About Revan fighting his way through all the Mandalorians and Echani, possible, but it is equally possible that he sent in a dozen jedi to clear out the place before hand, then him Malak and the Exile walked in, Revan killed on person and walked out. It even says that he sent HK-47 after Mandalore, so he certainly wasn't above sending other people in to weaken his oppponet.

Also, I would like to point out that the echani thing is not infalliable, if it was then the best echani warrior would not have died. Also the exile beats up the handmaidens easily. I don't mean the one that comes with you either I faced off against all 5 at once and won easily. So the echani thing is not infalliable.

Also, it is impossible for Revan to know everything about the sith. Alright lets say he studied for 8 hours a day when he was a padawan. Thats nice and all, but he was a padawan, he would not have been allowed to view the most powerful jedi stuff, the things reserved for masters. Heck, if he was lucky he would have seen some basic knight stuff. This is also not disputing Kriea, he was still thirsty for knowledge, but he only mastered the padawan and say half the knight stuff. Then, lets say he became a knight at 18. He was then sent on more missions, but still dedicated 6 to 8 hours a day studying (I thinks that a bit much but still...). Ok, he masters the knight stuff as well. Then he went and fought in the Mandalorian wars. Little room for learning of the force there. The wars ended and he started to learn from Malachor. I think there were 3 years between the mandalorian and sith wars. So even if he studied for 2 of those years (remember he spent some time hunting down the maps and the star forge and getting it to obey him and produce ships, I'm guessing it took a year for that). And say he spent 8 hours a day training himself and 4 training Malak. Even with that he simply could not have read through and mastered everything about the sith. Remember it takes 10 years to master the weakest lightsaber form, it would take a long time to master those powerful force techniques as well. Then he marched off to war again and was soon captured. After defeated Malak, he spent one year at Korriban, but he would have learned little new there, he already knew much of it from Malachor. Then he regains his memerories and that is that last we know of him (so far). So he simply could not have known everything about the jedi and sith.

Luke on the other hand trained for 30 years, but he had no restrictions on his knowledge. Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to be the best so they tought him as much as they could of war. He continues to train from their holocrons. After that he trains under the Empeor and gets his libary with 1000 years of sith knowledge (Revan's sith libary also only had 1000 years of knowledge). The difference is that Luke kept his and trained with it for 25 years longer than Revan did. He also found an ancient jedi libary and trained with it for 25 years.

Also it is impossible for him to have mastered every lightsaber form, it takes 10 years to master the weak form VI. Say 15 to 20 for all the others, and Revan was around 30, no matter how much he worked, he could have mastered 3 forms at best. And this also would have made him a complete lightsaber master IN HIS DAY. For my guess is that there were only three forms, the basic duelling one (form I), the advanced duelling one (form II), and the defense one (form III), other people have already argued this, and it makes sense and I agree with them.

About Revan being able to make Luke mad because he is a skywalker, just because Anakin get mad easily (only in episode 1, 2 and 3 though, in the OT he is much calmer), that does not mean Luke will get mad easily. Jaina describes his fighting style as calm and focused. Not something that brings to mind a rage is it?

Also, about the jedi in Anakin's time not blowing up suns, first off that is a sith power, secondly, they were trying to save the galaxy, not destroy it.

About your question, well I will answer with another question. If you were studying for a test and studied for 5 days, 8 hours each day, and your rival was studying for 25 days at 6 hours each day, who will do better and has more knowledge?


Revan was known for his fighting ability and that's why the Jedi sent a task force of Jedi Masters (and Bastila) to take him down. And the Echani thing, if you listen to the Handmaiden, only the best of Echani Generals were able to do it, while the rest didn't have the ability.

The Luke having more experience: that's bullshit. Luke had about 5% of the knowledge available to him compared to Revan. Even the Padawan stuff Revan learned was greater than what Luke learned over all. And Revan was the ONLY ONE, the ONLY ONE, to find Tulak Hord' holocron. Were talking about the greatest lightsaber dueler ever.

And what's this shit about them only having three forms? They would have every form except Form 6 and Form 4 laong with Mace's Vaapad. And where did you get the idea it took ten years to msater a lightsaber form? Obi did it in about 5.

Originally posted by HimoKun
The Luke having more experience: that's bullshit. Luke had about 5% of the knowledge available to him compared to Revan. Even the Padawan stuff Revan learned was greater than what Luke learned over all. And Revan was the ONLY ONE, the ONLY ONE, to find Tulak Hord' holocron. Were talking about the greatest lightsaber dueler ever.

Give me some proof that the Padawan stuff Revan learned is greater than the things Luke learned. THAT is bullsh*t. Yoda is said to be the greatest Jedi Master ever and he was Lukes teacher (since he remained within the force he could have done that teachings to Luke for 27 years). So what do you think a normal Jedi Master or a Sith Lord can teach you that somebody who is the greatest Jedi Master ever with 850 years of knowledge can not.

And please. Tulak Hord is said to be the best SITH dueler ever. That doesn't actually mean that he is the best lightsaber dueler ever. Do you think he can beat Yoda who had 800 years time to practice with a lightsaber ? And even if Tulak Hord actually is the best dueler. Learning from the best doesn't make you the best. It doesn't even takes you close to be the best.



Erm...what ? Obi-Wan did it in about 5 ? Obi-Wan switched from form IV to III directly after the events in TPM and he was master of this form in RotS...that are 13 years not 5.

DarkStar, I am going to have to dispute with you on some things though.

You said there was only three lightsaber forms at that time. Well that is not true because the main forms around at the time of the Jedi Purge were 1-7. Juyo, since they were made in order, was thousands of years before the Clone Wars.

It is also possible to learn a form in less time than you said. That is just the average time.

Form 6, the worst one from a fighters point of veiw, takes ten years to know it, not master it. Mastering it takes a lot longer on average, and few Jedi KNights ever mastered and form. It was mainly Jedi Masters who mastered form.

Form 2 for instance, takes relativly a very long time to master. I read that it took Dooku over fifty years to master it and Dooku was also supposed to be one of the strongest Jedi that had come from the temple in the last several hundred years.

I doubt that Revan only sudied for 8 hours per day. He probably used some technique to allow him to regulary go for extended periods of time with out sleep. If he studied for 20 hours per day over each year he would have studied for 730 hours. Ife he can read a page every thirty seconds(after a while, you can read really fast) (altough probably not in book format) would look like this:

730*365=266,450*24=6,394,800*60=383,688,000*60=23,
021,280,000

23,021,280,000*2=46,489,440,000 pages per year.

That is a lot. Luke also didn't learn anything about the force most days because he had nothing that big to learn from.


And sorry, go learn more about SW. NJO LUke is only 28 years after ANH. You kept saying 30.

Originally posted by HimoKun
Revan was known for his fighting ability and that's why the Jedi sent a task force of Jedi Masters (and Bastila) to take him down. And the Echani thing, if you listen to the Handmaiden, only the best of Echani Generals were able to do it, while the rest didn't have the ability.

The Luke having more experience: that's bullshit. Luke had about 5% of the knowledge available to him compared to Revan. Even the Padawan stuff Revan learned was greater than what Luke learned over all. And Revan was the ONLY ONE, the ONLY ONE, to find Tulak Hord' holocron. Were talking about the greatest lightsaber dueler ever.

And what's this shit about them only having three forms? They would have every form except Form 6 and Form 4 laong with Mace's Vaapad. And where did you get the idea it took ten years to msater a lightsaber form? Obi did it in about 5.


That taskforce was not just for Revan. They had to fight there way to him.

And go check you sources you dumbass, many good Echani could do it. The best were just able to predict wars years in advance.

Overall HimoKun, I think you are an incompetent fool.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That taskforce was not just for Revan. They had to fight there way to him.

And go check you sources you dumbass, many good Echani could do it. The best were just able to predict wars years in advance.

Overall HimoKun, I think you are an incompetent fool.

Mofo, the taskforce was specifically meant for Revan. Otherwise, THEY WOULD'VE ATTACKED HIM.

I was wrong, many good Echani can do it. Happy Smart ass?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

I doubt that Revan only sudied for 8 hours per day. He probably used some technique to allow him to regulary go for extended periods of time with out sleep. If he studied for 20 hours per day over each year he would have studied for 730 hours. Ife he can read a page every thirty seconds(after a while, you can read really fast) (altough probably not in book format) would look like this:

730*365=266,450*24=6,394,800*60=383,688,000*60=23,
021,280,000

23,021,280,000*2=46,489,440,000 pages per year.

That is a lot. Luke also didn't learn anything about the force most days because he had nothing that big to learn from.


And sorry, go learn more about SW. NJO LUke is only 28 years after ANH. You kept saying 30.

No offense, man, but you did your math wrong. Since, with the information used, he studied 730 hours per day and he can read one page per half-minute, you must first find out how many pages he can read per day. This can be done by converting 30 seconds to 24 hours, like so:

30sec x 1min/60sec = 0.5min
0.5min x 1hr/60min = (1/120)hr
(1/120)hr x 1day/20hr = (1/2,400)day

Since the inverse of 1/2,400 is 2,400, Revan, according to you, could read 2,400 pages per day. NOW you can multiply that by the number of days per year. Also, if he studied 20 hours per day, then he would study 20hrs/day x 365.25days/year, which is 7,305 hours per year rather than 730 hours per year.

Anyway, taking the figure of 2,400 pages per day, one can convert this to years thus:

2,400pg/day x 365.25day/yr = 856,600pg/yr.

Thus, he can read 856,600 pages per year. But what does that prove? How is the number of pages one can read really relevant, unless each and every page contributes to Revan's knowledge of the Force in some at least slightly significant way (although some pages could teach Revan more than others)? The scenario also seems maybe slightly weird (reading non-stop 20 hours per day).

REGARDLESS, there are ONLY 365.25 days (accounting for leapyear, once every four years) per EARTH YEAR. That is, the time it takes for the EARTH to revolve around our sun. Also, there are 24 hours per EARTH DAY, or the time it takes for the Earth to make a rotation. A year or day on another planet in another galaxy could be invariably different.

I didn't mean to be nit-picky. I just couldn't pass this post without making some corrections. I mean, calculus and physics technical studies are a couple things I do like (early grad theoretical physics major).

Dipsit, just go with it. We have no other time basis, so we are basing it off of Earth's time.

Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
No offense, man, but you did your math wrong. Since, with the information used, he studied 730 hours per day and he can read one page per half-minute, you must first find out how many pages he can read per day. This can be done by converting 30 seconds to 24 hours, like so:

30sec x 1min/60sec = 0.5min
0.5min x 1hr/60min = (1/120)hr
(1/120)hr x 1day/20hr = (1/2,400)day

Since the inverse of 1/2,400 is 2,400, Revan, according to you, could read 2,400 pages per day. NOW you can multiply that by the number of days per year. Also, if he studied 20 hours per day, then he would study 20hrs/day x 365.25days/year, which is 7,305 hours per year rather than 730 hours per year.

Anyway, taking the figure of 2,400 pages per day, one can convert this to years thus:

2,400pg/day x 365.25day/yr = 856,600pg/yr.

Thus, he can read 856,600 pages per year. But what does that prove? How is the number of pages one can read really relevant, unless each and every page contributes to Revan's knowledge of the Force in some at least slightly significant way (although some pages could teach Revan more than others)? The scenario also seems maybe slightly weird (reading non-stop 20 hours per day).

REGARDLESS, there are ONLY 365.25 days (accounting for leapyear, once every four years) per EARTH YEAR. That is, the time it takes for the EARTH to revolve around our sun. Also, there are 24 hours per EARTH DAY, or the time it takes for the Earth to make a rotation. A year or day on another planet in another galaxy could be invariably different.

I didn't mean to be nit-picky. I just couldn't pass this post without making some corrections. I mean, calculus and physics technical studies are a couple things I do like (early grad theoretical physics major).

No offense, but in either case it doesn't really matter since we have no idea how long he studied.

Originally posted by HimoKun
Dipsit, just go with it. We have no other time basis, so we are basing it off of Earth's time.

Yeah, sorry about that. You are right. I definitely shouldn't make an ass of myself by getting TOO nitpicky. Thanks for the wake up call, sir. I hope you can forget my asinine display. Sometimes I don't think enough.

Also, I just saw Revan's post, and I am well aware that the numbers are meaningless and all based on speculation. I just can't let incorrect mathematics conversions and calculations go. In retrospect, maybe that WAS a bad idea on my part to post that. Also, no offense to Glentract. Really. I've made an ass of myself. I hope you'll forgive me.

I'll forgive you in hell! Nah, I'm just kidding. IT's fine. I probably shouldn't have ben trying to do math in my head at that moment seeing as I have gotten about 10 hours of sleep total over the last six days. I'm just a little tired. I'm not going to go to sleep until at least 11 though to keep my sleep cycle up. Who knows, I might not even get to sleep tonight.(Like the last to days.)

The whole point of it was I was trying to show about how much Revan knows, or at least could possibly know in the amout of time that he studied.

Oh, of course. It's all in the name of Star Wars.

Peace, friend.

lol

C'mon Luke Skywalker learned a Force Power that didn't even exist in Revan's time. So if Luke used his unknown power, Revan would be stupefied and die.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
1.Someone said Revan only had 3 years to learn about the Sith or something like that. First, he spent many many years learning about the Jedi. He found Malachor V around the start of the mandalorian wars which lasted 3 years. The official KOTOR 2 website says Malachor V is a planet sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. Revan made a base there, studied the holocrons, relics, artifacts etc. learning how to defeat Jedi, how to convert them etc. and the official site says it increased his tremendous power. Remember that he was the only one to fully resist the evil of this planet as well, not even Kreia could do it. He also visited it after killing Malak at least once.


Well...I think I was the one to say that he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith. I thought he discovered Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian wars so I was wrong here. Does that realy matter ?

If he discovered Malachor V at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars he has:
3 years during the Mandalorian War
1 year after it
2 years during the Jedi Civil War
= 6 years to learn.
But he has to command some armies there. He has to think about the battles (at least - even as a tactical genious - you have to think about what you want to do next). And he must have done some fighting on his own since he must have developed his lightsaber skills somewhere.
Lets say he had an average time of 10 hrs per day studying and that is much keeping in mind what other things he did during that time period. According to Dipsits calculation this would be 428,300 pages a year or 2,569,800 pages in 6 years. That are tons of knowledge. BUT

- he had to learn from Holocrons / Sith spirits a lot and since they speak this would take more time than reading through a book. I personally know nobody that can speak the text displayed on one side of a book in 30 seconds.
- he had to exercize what he learned. If it comes to force powers or lightsaber combat he has to do that. I would like to compare this with somebody trying to learn martial arts from a book. You read a description (for example of a single Kung Fu kick), you have to understand that and than you have to go and practice it. At least you would need some hours to figure things out...

We realy can't tell how much Revan could have learned in that 6 years but I would hardly doubt that he could have learned as much as people like Ragnos, Sadow or even Sidious since they all studied that things for their entire lifes. That would be 40,50 or (Sidous) 90 years of studying. And yes...Luke had only 20 years of time...but why people always say he had less informations ? He had:

- everything that Sidous had
- the archieves that were onboard of the Cu'unthor (mobile Jedi Academy)
- everything that could be found in the ancient Sith ruins on Yavin 4 (a place where Sith Lords like Naga Sadow, Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd had spent some time of their lifes)

I don't want to say that Luke has equal knowledge compared with Revan. I just wanted to point out that some people here are overrating Revans amount of knowledge here.



Oh well...we could go on and do body counting here. What do you think how many people Luke killed by destroying the first Death Star alone ? Well...ok...let us just take a look on "direct" combat:

- directly after the destruction of the first Death Star, Luke travelled around to find a new planet for the Rebellion. While doing that he confronted cutthroat pirates and bandits on the planet Drexel
- guided by Obi-Wan he fought Vader for the first time and managed to cut Vaders mechanical arm off (pre ESB so with NO training)
- he killed several Black Sun assassins that were trying to kill him and he was able to escape from the Black Suns HQ almost alone.
- that are 4 years of fighting against the Galactic Empire only
- he managed to defeat Joruus C'Baoth and his own clone. Fighting yourself is hell.
- he singlehandly killed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong who were the biggest threat to the galaxy ever (their invasion killed 365 trillion people)

Meanwhile he was involved in some conflicts like the Truce at Bakura, the Bacta War, the Trawn crises, the Black Fleet crises as well as in the fights against the Dark Empire, the Second Empire, the Diversity Alliance and at least against the Yuuzhan Vong (that last conflict did go on from 25-30 ABY, 5 years).

So I hardly doubt that Revan did that much more fighting than Luke did. Yes. Revan did it against people with lightsabers and force powers. Does that count so much when you keep in mind what people like Boba/Jango Fett could do without lightsabers and without the force ?




So...does that more count for Revan who was in combat for 8 years or for Luke who was in combat for almost 30 years ? Just see how much stronger Luke became between ESB and ROTJ (half year) and than image how much stronger another 25 years filled with normal confrontations and 5 years against the Yuuzhan Vong would have made him.



The only people known to have mastered a lightsaber form in RotS era are Kit Fisto (form I), Dooku (form II), Yoda (form IV), Mace (form VII + Vaapad) and Obi-Wan (form III). I don't think Anakin mastered any form during that time. With form V mastery he should have killed Obi-Wan during their lightsaber battle.



According to Luke there is no Dark Side or Light Side just the Force itself. Thinking of this you can say that Luke studied no "side" he studied the force. That actually is the thing that leads me to the conclusion that Luke will win here. Advanced philosophy. According to Sith philosophy you have to rely on your emotions to use certain powers. Take a look at Palpatine during RotS or RotJ when he uses force lightning. He is total giving into his hatred and becomes vunerable what actually alows Vader to kill him.
And that is the point. Luke could use all powers without giving into his emotions while Revan would need to do so for using his DS powers and thereby it will be harder for him to get the control back if he needs some LS abilities (that actually matches the KOTOR game physics where you need more power to use abilities that are from the opposite side of the force).

1. fair enough

2. If you're going to count Luke's kills I will have to count Revan's. He was always a fighter, leading the Republic in front charges against the Mandalorians. He probably killed thousands but since we don't know I will even be nice and say 3 hundred including Mandalore himself which even HK-47 could not destroy. I also heard somewhere he waged war against the echani but I'm not 100% sure on that even though he killed the strongest echani warrior. These fighters are far stronger than most, save for yuuzhan vong, and force users. Now, the Jedi civil war in which he trains people to convert and kill Jedi just like he does himself. Now, he probably killed 200 jedi or more, and let's say 2,000 Republic soldiers.

As for KOTOR, he kills an entire Republic ship of Sith soldiers, an entire military base, a powerful street gang, and a big time exchange boss and his headquarters not to mention one of the best bounty hunters in the galaxy, all WITHOUT the Force. Over the course of the game he later kills about 40 mandalorians, a hundred sand people, a Sith embassy, a station full of insane beasts, several wookies, an entire academy for Sith warriors, a capital sized ship of Sith soldiers and dark Jedi, a temple full of dark Jedi, then hundreds of dark Jedi and assassin droids in the Star Forge. Then there's the powerful opponents he's defeated, Darth Malak twice in a row, Darth Bandon, Bastila, Malak's 3 strongest Dark Jedi, Calo Nord, Mandalore, and Yusanis. I'm not even counting him going off to single-handedly fight the ancient Sith empire.

3. Was Luke fighting in single combat as much as Lord Revan? I don't think so since he initially used the light side of the Force and avoided conflicts as much as possible. Not to mention most of his opponents are weaker than Revan's opponents until the Yuuzhan Vong. I would say they are equal on experience.

6. In the novel, Dooku says that Anakin was a good master of Form 5.

7. Darth Revan isn't totally evil. Some speculate all of his actions were actually to help the Republic whether dark side or not. He could control the dark side without giving in to basic emotions, he is most likely at a little below neutral. Revan is perhaps the most logical person in the star wars universe, he wouldn't let petty emotions enter the fight unless they were usefull and he wouldn't let arrogance cloud his judgement. And Since the Dark side is stronger, I think Revan has the advantage here.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...I think I was the one to say that he had only 3 years to learn about the Sith. I thought he discovered Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian wars so I was wrong here. Does that realy matter ?

If he discovered Malachor V at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars he has:
3 years during the Mandalorian War
1 year after it
2 years during the Jedi Civil War
= 6 years to learn.
But he has to command some armies there. He has to think about the battles (at least - even as a tactical genious - you have to think about what you want to do next). And he must have done some fighting on his own since he must have developed his lightsaber skills somewhere.
Lets say he had an average time of 10 hrs per day studying and that is much keeping in mind what other things he did during that time period. According to Dipsits calculation this would be 428,300 pages a year or 2,569,800 pages in 6 years. That are tons of knowledge. BUT

- he had to learn from Holocrons / Sith spirits a lot and since they speak this would take more time than reading through a book. I personally know nobody that can speak the text displayed on one side of a book in 30 seconds.
- he had to exercize what he learned. If it comes to force powers or lightsaber combat he has to do that. I would like to compare this with somebody trying to learn martial arts from a book. You read a description (for example of a single Kung Fu kick), you have to understand that and than you have to go and practice it. At least you would need some hours to figure things out...

We realy can't tell how much Revan could have learned in that 6 years but I would hardly doubt that he could have learned as much as people like Ragnos, Sadow or even Sidious since they all studied that things for their entire lifes. That would be 40,50 or (Sidous) 90 years of studying. And yes...Luke had only 20 years of time...but why people always say he had less informations ? He had:

- everything that Sidous had
- the archieves that were onboard of the Cu'unthor (mobile Jedi Academy)
- everything that could be found in the ancient Sith ruins on Yavin 4 (a place where Sith Lords like Naga Sadow, Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd had spent some time of their lifes)

I don't want to say that Luke has equal knowledge compared with Revan. I just wanted to point out that some people here are overrating Revans amount of knowledge here.



Oh well...we could go on and do body counting here. What do you think how many people Luke killed by destroying the first Death Star alone ? Well...ok...let us just take a look on "direct" combat:

- directly after the destruction of the first Death Star, Luke travelled around to find a new planet for the Rebellion. While doing that he confronted cutthroat pirates and bandits on the planet Drexel
- guided by Obi-Wan he fought Vader for the first time and managed to cut Vaders mechanical arm off (pre ESB so with NO training)
- he killed several Black Sun assassins that were trying to kill him and he was able to escape from the Black Suns HQ almost alone.
- that are 4 years of fighting against the Galactic Empire only
- he managed to defeat Joruus C'Baoth and his own clone. Fighting yourself is hell.
- he singlehandly killed thousands of Yuuzhan Vong who were the biggest threat to the galaxy ever (their invasion killed 365 trillion people)

Meanwhile he was involved in some conflicts like the Truce at Bakura, the Bacta War, the Trawn crises, the Black Fleet crises as well as in the fights against the Dark Empire, the Second Empire, the Diversity Alliance and at least against the Yuuzhan Vong (that last conflict did go on from 25-30 ABY, 5 years).

So I hardly doubt that Revan did that much more fighting than Luke did. Yes. Revan did it against people with lightsabers and force powers. Does that count so much when you keep in mind what people like Boba/Jango Fett could do without lightsabers and without the force ?




So...does that more count for Revan who was in combat for 8 years or for Luke who was in combat for almost 30 years ? Just see how much stronger Luke became between ESB and ROTJ (half year) and than image how much stronger another 25 years filled with normal confrontations and 5 years against the Yuuzhan Vong would have made him.



The only people known to have mastered a lightsaber form in RotS era are Kit Fisto (form I), Dooku (form II), Yoda (form IV), Mace (form VII + Vaapad) and Obi-Wan (form III). I don't think Anakin mastered any form during that time. With form V mastery he should have killed Obi-Wan during their lightsaber battle.



According to Luke there is no Dark Side or Light Side just the Force itself. Thinking of this you can say that Luke studied no "side" he studied the force. That actually is the thing that leads me to the conclusion that Luke will win here. Advanced philosophy. According to Sith philosophy you have to rely on your emotions to use certain powers. Take a look at Palpatine during RotS or RotJ when he uses force lightning. He is total giving into his hatred and becomes vunerable what actually alows Vader to kill him.
And that is the point. Luke could use all powers without giving into his emotions while Revan would need to do so for using his DS powers and thereby it will be harder for him to get the control back if he needs some LS abilities (that actually matches the KOTOR game physics where you need more power to use abilities that are from the opposite side of the force).


No, no, no, no, no. To become a master, you have to master a lightsaber form. There was 12 Jedi on the High Council and there tons of other Jedi Masters.

Yes, it does count if Revan killed people with lightsabers. There's a huge difference in fighting people with lightsabers compared to fighting someone with blaster. Revan had more experience fighting other llighsaber wielders. I think we can agree on that. And Boba and Fett killed weak Jedi. Just look at what happened when they fought good Jedi. (Boba got owned by Luke, Jango got owned by Mace).

And there is no light side or dark side, that is completely irrelevant. Why? Because it contradicts with the whole idea of Star Wars. There IS a Light Side and Dark Side. George Lucas, the God of Star Wars so to speak, whole idea of Star Wars is that there is white hats and black hats; good and bad. That's why you can't use anything like that in a argument about Star Wars. And Revan was not fueled by emotion by so many Sith before him and after him. He was probably the only non true Sith Sith that did not use emotions.

To close this argument about who did what, in the world of Star Wars, if two remotely close force users face each other, it will not be decided by force powers, but by a lightsaber duel. So in this fight, since we don't know what fighting style Revan exactly used, but from my knowledge of Sith, I believe he would be suing hte ancient Sith technique Dun Moch, which is taunting your opponent.

I believe with that technique, Luke would have a hard time fighting Revan if Revan knew of Luke's past. Now, since I have no clue what Luke uses as a form, (I lean towards form 1) I cannot argue about a lightsaber duel. So if someone could figure out what the two used as a lightsaber form, it would probably settle this.

Lightsaber form? From what we saw in both Kotor I and II Revan doesn't use an existing form... He probably made his own, which is not really surprising with all the studying he did, with Tulak Hord his Holocron he probably invented one he found was perfect for him. Seems like something he would do.

About Luke I have no idea, his form sucked in ROTJ but he has of course heavily improved, still I think his form is pretty basic because he had no real masters to learn it from and it would focus more on defending from and attacking people with blasters then people with lightsabers, seeing as he didn't face them as much.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
Revan would be stupefied and die.

You're too naive. Revan kills "overdrugged" Luke, who's Walkin' the Skies in couple of seconds. I think that Revan has a LOT more experience, knowledge, power, strength... e.t. c. Just play SW KOTOR II to the end and see how Darth Traya is watching the galaxy through her force prism. With much wisdom she speaks! And IMAGINE that she was Revan's master who bypassed her in ALL matters. Like the "nederlander" said: "Just watch the movies!" Confirm the fighting styles of the first trilogy and the second. In the 1st one they're figthin' like kids.

I think such debates about VS (versus) themes are only to see our forummate opinions. Because only the scenario editors and our beloven GEORGE will decide who is who...

Wow, what a heated discussion.....

Thank you emeperor revan for showing what a load of bs this luke killed more in one fight than revan ever did nonsense revan was a frontline solidier a field commander if you will during kotor he anhilated anything that got in his way as well as everyone he fought during the mandalorian wars and the jedi civil war that definitly makes thousands. But on that opic who cares how many they killed? It doesn't matter if i killed 10 guys and i fought a guy whop killed 20 it wouldn't have much bearing except the fact that with all the wars revan was part of he was able to put his far superior knowledge of force and lightsaber powers to use and unlike luke he never ever was beaten in combat.

More importantly he faced a lot of Jedi and Dark Jedi powerful one's that wanted to kill him more then anything else... Luke didn't. Giving Revan a hudge edge becuase he has a lot more experience with fighting other people with a lightsaber

The Yuuzhan Vong used melee weapons, amphistaffs. It's kind'ove like in real life, fighting someone who has a katana or a wakizashi(?) if still sword fighting and you will gain experince from it.

Fishy, you sound like the Yuuzhan Vong didn't want to kill Luke as much as the Dark Jedi wanted to kill Revan. Let me tell you, they did. They considered Luke to be an abomination because of his metal society.
They really wanted to kill Luke.

Originally posted by HimoKun
No, no, no, no, no. To become a master, you have to master a lightsaber form. There was 12 Jedi on the High Council and there tons of other Jedi Masters.

Who says so ? I never saw an information that says so. Becoming a Jedi Master / Council member is a question of experience with the force not a question of experience with a lightsaber.



I'm not talking about "people with a blaster"...people with melee weapons. And I won't question that Revan had more experience in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. I'm just saying that he hadn't that much more combat experience than Luke when you keep in mind how many times Luke was involved in battles.



Oh realy. That is the whole idea of Star Wars ? Black and white ? Good and evil ? I think you should watch those movies again or just ask George Lucas for his oppinion on that point. Except Yoda and Sidious I never saw somebody just being "good" or "evil" in the entire SW universe.



I think you should go to the next cinema and watch RotS again. Yoda vs Sidious is not decided by force powers ? After watching RotS you should go and watch RotJ again. Luke vs. Sidious not decided by force powers ? The more powerful the two opponents the higher the chance it will be just a question of force powers.
And using Dun Moch against Luke. Great idea...you can see Vader doing this in RotJ and we all know what happend after that.



Dun Moch is not a fighting technique it is just taunting. That would have no effect on NJO Luke.
And Luke is very much form V practitioner according to the things that can be seen in the movies (he might also know some form IV and form III techniques since Obi-Wan and Yoda were his first teachers) while Revan doesn't use any of the known styles.

Sorry for the double post.

There was some discussion above about veiws on the Force. Well, there are three beliefs that come to mind imediatly that I at least think I understand reasonably well.

The first is the Living Force. This is what Luke believes. It says that the Force comes from all things and is the whole energy feild thing. It is the one that Lucas invented.

The second is the potentiuum. It has no good, no evil, just the Force. This is the one that the Fensarri(the people on Zonoma Sekot) believed until they met Anakin and Obi-wan in Rouge PLanet. (Note, the potentiuum I believe has been called at least two different things on different occasions by bad communication between Authors.)

The third is the Unifying Force. This is basicaly a "revised" so to speak version of the potentiuum. This is what Zonama Sekot believed and also what Vergere taught Jacen. Luke, to my extreme disgust, came to believe this for a time and had the whole concept of the result justifies any way you get there. When Luke adopted this veiw of the Force, he decided that it was time to take action and fight the Yuuzhan Vong as warriors. Therefor he assaulted Shimera's Palace.

I personaly accept the Living Force veiw. I believe this to be the best way for many reasons.

1. It is George Lucas' one. He is the "god" of star wars.

2. This is the veiw of the Jedi. Yoda, Mace, and Obi-wan believe in this one.


Well, that is my little clarification on the Force talk that was going on earlier.

That doesn't give any answer if there is a Dark Side and a Light Side in the force itself or if there are only both sides in the people that use the force.

An energy field isn't good or evil.
The potentiuum isn't good or evil.
The Unifying Force isn't good or evil.

At least none of the ideas excludes the other ones.

Sorry, in the Living Force, there is a light and a dark. It is the one that is shown in the movies. Bad guys, Dark, Good guys, Light.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Who says so ? I never saw an information that says so. Becoming a Jedi Master / Council member is a question of experience with the force not a question of experience with a lightsaber.



I'm not talking about "people with a blaster"...people with melee weapons. And I won't question that Revan had more experience in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. I'm just saying that he hadn't that much more combat experience than Luke when you keep in mind how many times Luke was involved in battles.



Oh realy. That is the whole idea of Star Wars ? Black and white ? Good and evil ? I think you should watch those movies again or just ask George Lucas for his oppinion on that point. Except Yoda and Sidious I never saw somebody just being "good" or "evil" in the entire SW universe.



I think you should go to the next cinema and watch RotS again. Yoda vs Sidious is not decided by force powers ? After watching RotS you should go and watch RotJ again. Luke vs. Sidious not decided by force powers ? The more powerful the two opponents the higher the chance it will be just a question of force powers.
And using Dun Moch against Luke. Great idea...you can see Vader doing this in RotJ and we all know what happend after that.



Dun Moch is not a fighting technique it is just taunting. That would have no effect on NJO Luke.
And Luke is very much form V practitioner according to the things that can be seen in the movies (he might also know some form IV and form III techniques since Obi-Wan and Yoda were his first teachers) while Revan doesn't use any of the known styles.

And yes, a master does master a lightsaber form. Sorry about the confusion, they do become a master by the way you said it, but while their a master they master a lightsaber form.

And being in a battle of a normal war won't help you beat someone in one on one. Luke has the disadvantage with experience since he had not been fighting other lightsaber wielders.

No good guy is perfect. No bad guy is completely bad. But they do follow one side or the other. That is how George Lucas sees it. It is the EU writers who came up with the bullshit of 'There is no dark side or light side, but only the force'. That is completely contradictary to Lucas' idea.

Now, Dun Moch is a fightnig technique, since you do it during a fight. Yes, Luke is a form 5 practioner, but that doesn't help in a lightsaber fight, since Form 5 is meant to deflect blaster bolts at there opponent and it is also a form meant for killing numerous inferior enemies, like what Anakin did during ROTS.

That was decided by a pansy move. If you watch AOTC, remember what Dooku says to Yoda before he starts dueling him. It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

http://darthglentract.tripod.com/

Tha's my website, just advertising.

I agree with you on the sucky idea to make there no good or evil. Luke has fought plenty of lightsaber weilders. Also, why should it be limited to just lightsaber weilders? Any melee person should help in melle combat experince. The way they fight is pretty much the same. Below are some of the LIGHTSABER weilders Luke fought. NOT all of them though.

1. Jensarri. They used lightsabers. They aren't mentioned much, infact, maybe in only one book, I, Jedi.

2. Cult of Ragnos. These guys suck, but so do a lot of the people Revan fought. Example, the people at the Sith Academy who had trained for maybe a month.

3. Sparring with other Jedi. Not as helpful as a real fight, but it still helps.

4. Then there are the main characters I listed before.

nice site

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
http://darthglentract.tripod.com/

Tha's my website, just advertising.

I agree with you on the sucky idea to make there no good or evil. Luke has fought plenty of lightsaber weilders. Also, why should it be limited to just lightsaber weilders? Any melee person should help in melle combat experince. The way they fight is pretty much the same. Below are some of the LIGHTSABER weilders Luke fought. NOT all of them though.

1. Jensarri. They used lightsabers. They aren't mentioned much, infact, maybe in only one book, I, Jedi.

2. Cult of Ragnos. These guys suck, but so do a lot of the people Revan fought. Example, the people at the Sith Academy who had trained for maybe a month.

3. Sparring with other Jedi. Not as helpful as a real fight, but it still helps.

4. Then there are the main characters I listed before.

True, but he had no experience fighting anyone remotely close to him in skill like Revan would be. Revan fought Malak, Bandon,(Would be stronger than any bad guy Luke fought), and a few ones that were a little bit lesser than him. And there's difference between lightsaber and melee. Melee wielders won't be using the force to help them with there attacks and their attacks will be incredibly wide and out of control compared to a lightsaber. That isn't very good experience for lightsaber fighting.

And on your site, lol it's 'Tulak Hord' not 'Tulak Lord'. (Just needed to be a ass today).

Man, this forum has a great deal of good debates. Both from Luke's side and Revan's. Just look at the poll! The two Force users are tied in becoming the victor...starwars

I still haven't voted. Which side should I vote for?

Revans

If you want an opinion, sir, then mine is to vote Luke. Didn't mean to seem like I care too much. I just think Luke would win, although this is perhaps a subjective opinion.

Peace, Mr. Kun, sir.

How would Luke win? Please give your oppinion.

Okay. However, not to dodge the bullet, but have you read the NJO books? This isn't meant in an offensive or supercilious way - I'm just curious (also I want to know should I make a response).

Yes I have. But I strongley believe that Luke is over rated and that Revan could beat him.

That's understandable. Seeing as you've read the books, I can hardly tell you anything new. However, both characters, Revan and Luke, are highly controversial and have highly biased fans, so it's hard to discuss them subjectively. So, anyways, since you have an educated opinion and are learned on this matter, I will completely respect your judgment, Boba.

Peace, my friend.

peace

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Thank you emeperor revan for showing what a load of bs this luke killed more in one fight than revan ever did nonsense revan was a frontline solidier a field commander if you will during kotor he anhilated anything that got in his way as well as everyone he fought during the mandalorian wars and the jedi civil war that definitly makes thousands. But on that opic who cares how many they killed? It doesn't matter if i killed 10 guys and i fought a guy whop killed 20 it wouldn't have much bearing except the fact that with all the wars revan was part of he was able to put his far superior knowledge of force and lightsaber powers to use and unlike luke he never ever was beaten in combat.

Thanks. I'm glad I've got other on my side like you, Fishy, Himokun and the others.

Originally posted by HimoKun
And being in a battle of a normal war won't help you beat someone in one on one. Luke has the disadvantage with experience since he had not been fighting other lightsaber wielders.

Err...
Luke had 3 fights with Vader alone using lightsabers (one in EU, two in the films). He fought several Dark Jedi / Sith and we have to keep in mind that somebody had to train the NJO in lightsaber combat.

An since when does experience count in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat ? Sidious had almost no experience in direct lightsaber combat (at least NO training for 30+ years) and he kills 3 masters in less than 10 seconds in RotS. Kyle Katarn had no training in lightsaber combat and killed 7 Dark Jedi and probably thousands of enemies with that weapon (when you want to take arguments from the events in SW video games I can do that too).



I think you have no idea how much control Lucas has over the EU section. Many EU books are written by authors who got an assignment by Lucas to do so. There is almost nothing in the EU that contradicts Lucas ideas. You should keep in mind that SW universe is "owned" by Lucas completely.

And now ask yourself what is more frightening and more "realistic": The idea that "good" or "evil" is determined by the two oppositing sides of an energy field or the idea that every single person has the potential to be "good" or "evil" ? Take a closer look on the midichlorians. Qui-Gon said to Anakin that you can listen what they tell you and what they tell you is the will of the force. And now you can tell me what a Sith Lord actually is ? Is it somebody that ignores the will of the force completely ? Or is it somebody that just got the "evil" midichlorians ? First idea implies that the "evil" side always has to lose against the "good" in any form of direct confrontation because acting against the will of the power that controls everything and that is not true for the SW universe. Second idea also contraticts the events in the SW universe since we have tons of people turning from DS to LS or the other way around (Luke himself, Revan, Kyp Durron, Darth Vader).
So what is the truth ?
At least I don't see the "contradiction" in the ideas of the energy field, the potentiuum and the unifying force. Any difference between the both sides is always displayed throug feelings / motivations the force users have. Blowing up the Death Star and killing ten thousands of human beings with that actions could be seen as something "evil" but because the "evil" guys die it is good.



Form V is designed to turn defence into offence. Not just redirect blasterfire also do the same thing in lightsaber combat. It is meant to overwhelm an opponent through sheer strength since the blows are very wide swinging and thereby very hard to parry.
And it is not just meant for killing numerous enemies. I'd say form V is the best form for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat except for form II. You can see Dooku (form II master) out of breath after parrying Anakins (form V user) attacks for about 30 seconds.



And see what happened. Yoda...totally out of any "real" lightsaber fighting for a very long time period totaly owns Dooku who had mastered the form that is said to be the ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. And lightsaber combat can't be done without using the force.

Luke owns.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Err...
Luke had 3 fights with Vader alone using lightsabers (one in EU, two in the films). He fought several Dark Jedi / Sith and we have to keep in mind that somebody had to train the NJO in lightsaber combat.

An since when does experience count in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat ? Sidious had almost no experience in direct lightsaber combat (at least NO training for 30+ years) and he kills 3 masters in less than 10 seconds in RotS. Kyle Katarn had no training in lightsaber combat and killed 7 Dark Jedi and probably thousands of enemies with that weapon (when you want to take arguments from the events in SW video games I can do that too).



I think you have no idea how much control Lucas has over the EU section. Many EU books are written by authors who got an assignment by Lucas to do so. There is almost nothing in the EU that contradicts Lucas ideas. You should keep in mind that SW universe is "owned" by Lucas completely.

And now ask yourself what is more frightening and more "realistic": The idea that "good" or "evil" is determined by the two oppositing sides of an energy field or the idea that every single person has the potential to be "good" or "evil" ? Take a closer look on the midichlorians. Qui-Gon said to Anakin that you can listen what they tell you and what they tell you is the will of the force. And now you can tell me what a Sith Lord actually is ? Is it somebody that ignores the will of the force completely ? Or is it somebody that just got the "evil" midichlorians ? First idea implies that the "evil" side always has to lose against the "good" in any form of direct confrontation because acting against the will of the power that controls everything and that is not true for the SW universe. Second idea also contraticts the events in the SW universe since we have tons of people turning from DS to LS or the other way around (Luke himself, Revan, Kyp Durron, Darth Vader).
So what is the truth ?
At least I don't see the "contradiction" in the ideas of the energy field, the potentiuum and the unifying force. Any difference between the both sides is always displayed throug feelings / motivations the force users have. Blowing up the Death Star and killing ten thousands of human beings with that actions could be seen as something "evil" but because the "evil" guys die it is good.



Form V is designed to turn defence into offence. Not just redirect blasterfire also do the same thing in lightsaber combat. It is meant to overwhelm an opponent through sheer strength since the blows are very wide swinging and thereby very hard to parry.
And it is not just meant for killing numerous enemies. I'd say form V is the best form for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat except for form II. You can see Dooku (form II master) out of breath after parrying Anakins (form V user) attacks for about 30 seconds.



And see what happened. Yoda...totally out of any "real" lightsaber fighting for a very long time period totaly owns Dooku who had mastered the form that is said to be the ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. And lightsaber combat can't be done without using the force.

Luke still didn't have experience with anyone near his skill level duting NJO. Vader was not a opponent during NJO, and what he fought was a cripple basically.

Yes Lucas has control over them, but that doesn't mean he tells them what ot write. If you look at the movie, there is a good and a bad side, the Dark Side and the Light Side. What Luke did with the was for a just cause, so it makes it ok. And I never said you have evil or good midichlorians. Everyone does have the pontential to become good and bad, and you achieve that through the different versions of the force; the light and dark side. And no, good only triumphs over evil in the end in the Star Wars World.( Confederacy being beaten, Malak being killed, Sith Empire being destroyed, Sidious dying, etc.) And why are we even talking about this? It's completely irrelevant.

Form V is a more offensive form of Form III. And if you noticed, Dooku was fighting completely differently from when he was fighting both Obi Wan and Anakin, from when he' fighting anakin. When he's fighting Anakin, he's has a completely different style. His swings have much less finese and the way he's fighting is incredibly open and unlike his percise strikes during AOTC. I believe Dooku was avoiding killing Anakin since Darth Sidious wanted Anakin alive. And Form V is a incredibly open form, almost as open as Form 4. This kinda of form would not help you fight someone like Revan, who would most likely catch on and kill you while your swinging like that.

And Yoda was sparring with Jedi all that time and he probably fought many Fallen Jedi. Remember, that the time where Ydoa was there was no war, but that doesn't mean he didn't fight anyone.

"I warn you not to underestimate my power." ROTJ Luke Skywalker

It would be an amazing battle, but NJO Luke Skywalker at the end would rise to be the victor...starwars

That just shows he's full of himself.

Revan gets his ass kicked because he is overrated.

Originally posted by TraptUnderIce
Revan gets his ass kicked because he is overrated.

Overrated my ass. I think he's rated just right. What isn't he good at? Does he even have any weaknesses? If you want, I will post a big list of Lord Revan's accomplishments to show that he's not overrated.

And then his weaknesses to show he's not perfect. Does Luke have any? Hardly.

The designers of KOTOR ****ed up when they created a character that couldn't be ****en beat. Exar Kun who was a kickass character was eventually beaten. Not so for Revan. Revan vs the whole ****en galaxy wins because he took on a whole army of droids and he never gets tired and he flies.

Yah I find that stuff really crappy.

You people are insane?

When is Revan overpowered? He never is, he still faces challenges, if he was overpowered you would walk threw that game and kill everybody even as a LVL 1 character...

Originally posted by Fishy
You people are insane?

When is Revan overpowered? He never is, he still faces challenges, if he was overpowered you would walk threw that game and kill everybody even as a LVL 1 character... They still have to make the game playable but story wise who can beat him?

Originally posted by TraptUnderIce
The designers of KOTOR ****ed up when they created a character that couldn't be ****en beat. Exar Kun who was a kickass character was eventually beaten. Not so for Revan. Revan vs the whole ****en galaxy wins because he took on a whole army of droids and he never gets tired and he flies.

So you're saying if it was Kun doing what Revan did he wouldn't be overpowered? Is Naga overpowered for being able to cause stars to go supernova? Or Luke for being able to control gravity among other things?

We haven't even seen what happens to Revan, he may be defeated later on but we don't know yet. Oh and Revan flying? You need your eyes checked or you need to learn that flying in SHIPS is not uncommon in the SW galaxy.

Originally posted by TraptUnderIce
They still have to make the game playable but story wise who can beat him?

In the Kotor era? Nobody, thats the point isn't it? You play the Dark Lord of the Sith... You are the most powerful person of that time.

All times together, these can all be argued about of course.

NJO Luke
Marka Ragnos
Naga Sadow
Tulak Hord
Exar Kun
And a few others that i'm to lazy to list.

And why aren't those people overpowered but Revan is? Have you even read the NJO books. Luke goes from a farm boy without a mentor to a god, and that isn't overpowered? Everybody is overpowered when you look at it from far away not just the people you don't like.

To a god? That's hardly true.

Naga and Kun were beaten and Luke does use the extreme of the force and he hasn't been beaten yet but he also has no real enemies equal in power to best him.

I'll be waiting to see how he dies.

Thanks for being a sarcastic jackass.

I'll admit Kun and Luke are gods practically in the SW universe but when it comes down to VS. threads there is discussion not "Oh Revan wins cause he Revan."

Well they made him incredibly powerful. Logical of course authors have a tendency of doing that, just like people that create games or comics or whatever. You love the person you created and you don't really feel bad about making him better then anybody else. And thats why these debates are actually still fun, because we have a lot of people that are better then the normal weak guys that walk along.