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I was amazed and surprised in Episode III when mace windu beat palpatine. But then Palpatine beats Yoda! I had always thought of Yoda as by far the most powerful Jedi. I was wondering your thoughts on these duels, and of my idea that it could be a cyclical pattern, like rock paper scissors.

Mace beats Palpatine
Palpatine beats Yoda
Yoda beats Mace


? What do you think of this idea?

Mace vs. Palps was a pure lightsaber battle. Palpatine vs. Yoda was a mixture of lightsabers and the force. I would say Yoda outclassed Palpatine in lightsabers because if Palpatine could simply demolish Yoda in saber combat, I'm sure he would have. But instead, he had to keep some distance from the little green guy and throw pods at him to keep him away.

good point. So in a test of force ability the emperor could beat mace? But because mace was only swordfighting he won? Mace did invent Vapaad form 7, he is one of the best swordsmen ever. This is a good explanation.

In lightsaber combat it is:

Yoda > Mace > Palpatine

In force use that would be:
Yoda > Palpatine > Mace

Yoda didn't lose to Palpatine in RotS. Palpatine just wanted to run away from Yoda and than only gets lucky because of the fighting area and Yoda losing his lightsaber when deflecting Palpatine force lightning. Throwing them to some sort of arena where no one can use "higher position" and Yoda will cut Palpatine into tiny little pieces.

good point on the higher ground-but i still feel the emperor is more powerful than Yoda. Otherwise, why wouldn't Yoda try to fight him again? And why couldn't he sense the chancellor's intentions all along unless Palpatine had a superior force ability to hide them.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
good point on the higher ground-but i still feel the emperor is more powerful than Yoda. Otherwise, why wouldn't Yoda try to fight him again? And why couldn't he sense the chancellor's intentions all along unless Palpatine had a superior force ability to hide them.

Yoda wouldn't try to fight him again because it would be Yoda vs. Palpatine, Vader and the whole Empire. Not to mention that the Emperor told the senat that the Jedi had tried to kill him without any reason.

And Yoda couldn't sense the chancellor's intentions because the chancellor used old Sith techniques to appear as a person without any force power. That would not help him in head to head combat besides that he is a crappy lightsaber fighter (most likely form VI user pff...).

Why wouldn't Yoda want to fight him again? Simple. After ROTS, Palpatine had the whole empire watching his back. There wouldn't be another chance for Yoda to fight him one on one. Exactly the same reason why Palpatine chose not to challenge Yoda before ROTS. Because Yoda had the whole Jedi Order behind him. No chance for a one on one fight.

No. the reason is the same as yoda said in the movie and elaborated in the ROTS novel: "Failed I have." He and Ben simply are not powerful enough to face the 2 great Sith Lords again. So they have to wait for Luke and Leia to grow.

Yoda proved he was able to match sidious. Watch the fight. Sidious was backing away from Yoda the whole time.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
No. the reason is the same as yoda said in the movie and elaborated in the ROTS novel: "Failed I have." He and Ben simply are not powerful enough to face the 2 great Sith Lords again. So they have to wait for Luke and Leia to grow.

LOL...sorry...
Not powerful enough ?
Palpatine ran away from Yoda after being force pulled by Yoda through the entire room. He has no chance in direct combat and even no chance in matching Yodas force powers.

I think they're a pretty good match. But you're right. Watch the fight. WHO WINS?

Palpatine could pull this off I think

I was under the impression that Mace is a better swordsman than Yoda, but Yoda is more powerful with the force, more experienced and generally wiser.

Yoda... Sidious would most likely be distracted by Mace, and I feel the only way Sidious would stand a chance against yoda is to only focus only on him... So Sidious would go down and then a battle between Yoda and Mace... I think yoda would pull this one off...

No, Mantis, read my first post, you don't understand the meaning of this thread. But good idea though. But my point was why is it that when Yoda is more powerful than mace, palpatine beats yoda but not mace.

GL does contradict himself - from time to time.

But you are 100% right.

THis fight will completely be owned by the Jedi(s)
Yoda and Mace will obviously team-up.......

And then Yoda vs. Mace has already been discussed, mace winned....

same reply to immortalone as mantis

My opinion still doesn't change...

good. never give up

Lol.

Alright, let's get this straight, once again. Ehem...

1. Palpatine threw Force lightning at Yoda during the initial part of the fight, whilst doing his typical villain monologue. Now. This should've given enough time for Yoda to prepare. Yoda was nailed by the lightning and sent flying across the room, and was knocked temporarily unconscious.

2. Yoda got up and Force pushed Palpatine across the room, where he flipped over his desk. Palpatine got RIGHT BACK up. I believe his endurance is greater than Yoda. Their both old men, though.

3. Palpatine (remember, he said in the movie "all who gain power are afraid to lose it" - he didn't know if he could take Yoda. So what did he do? He tried to run. Yoda was quicker to the door and confronted him. Realizing he couldn't escape - he STOOD and FOUGHT. Notice he did NOT try to escape after that.

4. Palpatine HELD OFF YODA - despite what people believe. Yoda went on the offensive. He was looking to KILL Palpatine - NOT vice versa. Palpatine was on the defensive. People make excuses "I didn't see Palpatine cut down Yoda". Well, Palps was on the defensive. Yoda was on the offensive. YODA was the one looking to cut Palpatine. And he DIDN'T!!!

5. So the fight went into the Senate Chamber. Palpatine switched to the offensive. He was chucking Senate pods left and right at Yoda. Yoda's pretty agile - and dodged them all. Then he threw one back - but had a difficult time doing so. Palpatine was laughing - notice this. At the time, he wasn't taking Yoda seriously. His mistake. Palpatine lept out of the way just as the pod closed in on him.

6. Yoda persued Palpatine and closed in on him - but Palpatine also went on the offensive and fired Force lightning. They were both closing on eachother. Yoda was holding Palpatine's lightning at bay - and Palpatine was continuing to hurl it - and both were struggling to keep these feats up. Yoda threw the lightning back at Palpatine who flipped over the Senate pod. Yoda is obviously much smaller than Palpatine - and went flying in return.

Now.

Yoda fleed from Palpatine. Some people say it was because of the Clones. And again, where is your proof that the Clones were summoned? Palpatine could've called them AFTER Yoda left. He certainly didn't do it during the fight.

Others say it was Mas Amedda who called the Clones. Lol. Mas Amedda left the room in no hurry to help Palpatine. Obviously he figured Palpatine could handle this all on his own. If Amedda was going to get the Clones to help Palpatine - I'd imagine that he would've RAN off to go get them.

Palpatine killed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. An impressive feat that several people tend to neglect. Do remember that even the book and EU material states these three - such as Kit Fisto - to be excellent duelists and worthy of their title as Jedi Masters. So. Basically - he took down THREE Jedi Masters - the equivelant to a Sith Lord - and cut them down in three seconds. By himself.

Maul couldn't do this. Dooku couldn't do this. And Anakin couldn't do this.

I don't have proof that Palpatine orchestrated the fight between him and Mace. All I know is, Palpatine's manipulations and skills at orchestration are far greater than Yoda or Mace could ever dream of. So maybe he purposely lost to Mace. Or maybe he didn't.

1. yoda was obviously faking knocked out
2.palpatine is probably 820 years yunger than yoda(who didnt die till around 900)and yoda was faking to catch him off gaurd
3. thats not bravery thats called attacking when cornered out of fright
4.no he didnt he had to keep running
5. not a difficult time he spun it to make it more dangerous
6.size doesnt always matter in a fight

1. yoda was obviously faking knocked out
2.palpatine is probably 820 years yunger than yoda(who didnt die till around 900)and yoda was faking to catch him off gaurd
3. thats not bravery thats called attacking when cornered out of fright
4.no he didnt he had to keep running
5. not a difficult time he spun it to make it more dangerous
6.size doesnt always matter in a fight

1. Was he? Well, in that case, Palpatine was OBVIOUSLY allowing Mace to get the upper hand. Lol you don't have proof to support it.

2. Palpatine is human. He can't even LIVE to be 900. Consider dogs. Dogs have a shorter life span than humans. Yoda's species simply has a longer one than Palpatine's.

3. Yoda attacked first. Palpatine did not.

4. WTF do you mean?

5. No. He spun it to add some more motion. Not to make it more dangerous. Throwing something down is easier than throwing it up. Yoda had to use his strength to get the pod back up to Palpatine.

6. That has no relevancy at all. I said he threw Palpatine's lightning back at him. The kickback - apparently Yoda isn't familiar with physics - shot Yoda through the air - much more farther than Palpatine.

And as for your Number 4. Palpatine was on the defensive - and Yoda was on the offensive. Palpatine was losing ground, because he was giving it. So he orchestrated the fight to lead them to the Senate arena. Thereby he believed he could gain the advantage by moving into a territory that Palpatine knew far better than Yoda.

Yoda's tough. But so is Palpatine. Like I said - both were a bit out of character. Yoda going on the offensive - Palpatine going on the defensive. Kinda strange.

But the point is - Palpatine orchestrated the fight to lead them to the Senate Chamber. One where the environment would give him the advantage over Yoda. Palpatine is a true soldier. Yoda is a warrior. There is a difference.

Mace would easily beat yoda and Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
I was amazed and surprised in Episode III when mace windu beat palpatine. But then Palpatine beats Yoda! I had always thought of Yoda as by far the most powerful Jedi. I was wondering your thoughts on these duels, and of my idea that it could be a cyclical pattern, like rock paper scissors.

Mace beats Palpatine
Palpatine beats Yoda
Yoda beats Mace


? What do you think of this idea?
Mace would never lose to Palpatine

sids would win if yoda and mace didnt team up.

if they teamed up then fought, yoda wuld win.

but in an all out brawl, sidious wins.

Palpatine needed mace to win, if he beated mace anakin wouldnt turn to the dark side

^^^ Exactly...I would say Darth Sidious and Yoda are pretty close in the ranges of power. Mace on the other hand is a powerful Jedi Master, but even he has said that Yoda is far greater in strength than he is.

The title "Revenge of the Sith." does kind of tell you the outcome of the Yoda vs. Sidious battle. (If you notice Yoda lost kind of because of luck...not because Sidious's skill, though his skill was able to hold Yoda off...Sidious is more powerful than what people think.) And as well, Yoda's failure makes his words to Luke in ROTJ..."Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." more meaningful. I still don't understand why Yoda thought Luke was ready to handle the Emperor...if they might go into lightsaber combat. Luke does become one of the strongest Jedi ever...but at that time he was only a Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by Darth Somebody


Palpatine killed three Jedi Masters in three seconds. An impressive feat that several people tend to neglect. Do remember that even the book and EU material states these three - such as Kit Fisto - to be excellent duelists and worthy of their title as Jedi Masters. So. Basically - he took down THREE Jedi Masters - the equivelant to a Sith Lord - and cut them down in three seconds. By himself.

And Anakin couldn't do this.

I don't have proof that Palpatine orchestrated the fight between him and Mace. All I know is, Palpatine's manipulations and skills at orchestration are far greater than Yoda or Mace could ever dream of. So maybe he purposely lost to Mace. Or maybe he didn't.

Hey quit being dumb sir. First of all in the movie it took more than three seconds, COUNT for god's sake. In the novel it took him a while to kill the first three. If you've read it (which you obviously didn't) there's a part which says anakin saw flashes of purple, red and green and the green (fisto) went out. Now the time between arrival of jedi and anakin is at least 10 minutes (anakin was on the high towers of the temple thinking about padme while they were duelling) Palpatine attacked first, he didn't take yoda seriously and was laughing a lot, anyways he was trying to get away from yoda, i assume because he had stuff to do or was afraid a senator would catch the fight and find out he was an evil sith lord. And quit putting a stupid excuse of physics, yoda fell because he was standing on the tip of the senate disk. Obviously you fail to notice the details and hence we have to put up with your babbling! ugh!

Originally posted by maximvs3
Hey quit being dumb sir.

...exclaims the idiot who is talking trash to someone from a post made way the hell back in 2005 and who hasn't been online since October of that very same year.

to be fair rha is eas mistake ti make.

Only if you're a moron who can't type or read.

Still stalking me/? I'm flattered. EReally.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Only if you're a moron who can't type or read.

These posters *regularly hang out here*. It's silly to accuse them of stalking.

Does Stealth *regualrly hang out at SW RP section*? Because he followd me there and made comments about the chracater I created in Ushgarak's game.

Probably, yea? I mean, what are the odds of a poster hanging out at two star wars related subforums on the same general forum?


Seems really, really high to me. We aren't exactly talking the odds of successfully navigating an astroid field here.

Despite not having any posts in the section or playing in any of the games, not to mention roleplaying and debating matchupos are 2 very, CERy different thigns, regardless of \Sw setting.

(it is not in general forum btw it is in rp section, not sw section)

Yes clearly he reguarly browses the forum despite no activity or posts, and it is absolute CINIDCIDENCE that he remarks on my intellgience and charisma scores a day after I make my character. Complete coincidence...

Not everybody has the skills or patience or inclination to roleplay btw, that he is SW fan (and even then he has made a efw critisicms fot eh setting recently) does not mean he would reolplay sw, nor is there any colleraiton between debating fighting and roleplaying. Plus he has no history in the section. yeh, I'm thinking he looked through my posting history to make thgat remark...

You usually like to get the last word in lol, so I'm waiting...

Bantha got your tail?

You're unusually stupid for an adult.

You're a whore. Your mothers a whore. here mother was a whore. And so was his father. You've been nothing but a troll since I first started posting at this side, and I hate you...

Like... unusually stupid. Even for a kid (which you are).

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
You're a whore. Your mothers a whore. here mother was a whore. And so was his father. You've been nothing but a troll since I first started posting at this side, and I hate you...

Hahaha! This actually cracked me up..

Lucien you whore from a family of whores

Padawan Obi-Wan you need to do a little growing up.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Bantha got your tail?

omg. stfu. just. please. do that.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Does Stealth *regualrly hang out at SW RP section*? Because he followd me there and made comments about the chracater I created in Ushgarak's game.

?

You're kidding me, right? I've never posted there. Ever. Nor have I stopped to look at the multitude of characters made.

The fact that you failed to get a general roleplaying reference used to make fun of your lack of intelligence... wait, nevermind.

Oh yes, general reoleplaying reference, and nothing at all specific, despite you making very accurate comments about both the intelligence and charisma stats of my character...

If you don;t believe me btw:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13804364&highlight=userid%3A139271#post13804364

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13805019&highlight=userid%3A128889#post13805019

I give my character 4 intelligence and 5 charimsa, and He posted a picture a day after saying that not everyone dumps it in charaisma, titled intelligence...

Muts be huge coincidence... I think not.

I want to call you a troll--it seems the appropriate thing to do.


But you're just so... earnest in being a dimwit.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Oh yes, general reoleplaying reference, and nothing at all specific, despite you making very accurate comments about both the intelligence and charisma stats of my character...

If you don;t believe me btw:

I give my character 4 intelligence and 5 charimsa, and He posted a picture a day after saying that not everyone dumps it in charaisma, titled intelligence...

Muts be huge coincidence... I think not.


....

Padawan, he was insulting you by implying that you, not your character, used intelligence as a dump stat!


(Also, a 'dump stat' is one that's significantly lower than the rest to free up points for other stats. Your character's int and charisma aren't even dump stats in the one you linked)

Then it was poor use of picture? Whi knows, it as still acurrate enough that it can't really be a coincidence. Many insults he ould have used, many pictures, and he makes reference to my recent activity in roleplaying section.

Originally posted by Q99
....

Padawan, he was insulting you by implying that you, not your character, used intelligence as a dump stat!


(Also, a 'dump stat' is one that's significantly lower than the rest to free up points for other stats. Your character's int and charisma aren't even dump stats in the one you linked)

^ He's correct. I meant that you're an idiot, because a "dump stat" is one that you nerf in order to have something else higher. Most power gamers dump Charisma in favor of Strength or Constitution. Or in your case, both CHA and INT are dump stats for what I must assume is Olypian physical prowess...

Because you're an idiot.

The fact that you can't figure out the insult after multiple explanations and the accessibility of Google only proves the point.

I figured the insult just fine, genius. Where the two us disagree is thtag your insulkt was clearly also serving as pun and double entende, making reference to my cvharacter creatin choices but also applying the insult to me as a person.

Unless you really want to say that it had nothing to do with it, despite it having been a day afterwards, and out of the many insults you could have used it was that specific.

And maybe it wasn;t a "dump stat" but maybe you just got lazy and didn;t find the ideal picture... you clearly still see my character choice and that i use charisma more than int... troll.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
I figured the insult just fine, genius. Where the two us disagree is thtag your insulkt was clearly also serving as pun and double entende, making reference to my cvharacter creatin choices but also applying the insult to me as a person.

Unless you really want to say that it had nothing to do with it, despite it having been a day afterwards, and out of the many insults you could have used it was that specific.

And maybe it wasn;t a "dump stat" but maybe you just got lazy and didn;t find the ideal picture... you clearly still see my character choice and that i use charisma more than int... troll.

Instant Grammar Check

Unless you're using hooks for hands or trying to hammer out replies before the warden removes your internet access, there's simply no excuse for your typos.

That's really terrifying; i plugged in a couple fragments from (unedited) papers and averaged 76. I should really start proofing my work!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Instant Grammar Check

Unless you're using hooks for hands or trying to hammer out replies before the warden removes your internet access, there's simply no excuse for your typos.

<<< That's really all I have to offer right now.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Then it was poor use of picture? Whi knows, it as still acurrate enough that it can't really be a coincidence. Many insults he ould have used, many pictures, and he makes reference to my recent activity in roleplaying section.

No, it's just a common insult that fit fairly well.

Referencing RPGs in a non-specific way isn't an unlikely coincidence in the least. It barely even qualifies as a coincidence, let alone an unlikely one.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
I figured the insult just fine, genius. Where the two us disagree is thtag your insulkt was clearly also serving as pun and double entende, making reference to my cvharacter creatin choices but also applying the insult to me as a person.

But it didn't have anything to do with the actual character choices you made, or even the game you were playing (using a real world figure rather than a game-specific one).

He was purely applying the insult to you as a person.




A day after you made a character without charisma or int as a dump stat, or even anything that specifically references your character at all?




The pic pretty clearly has nothing to do with your character who has very balanced stats, and everything to do with Space Moose saying he thinks you're dumb.

Space Moose. I love it.

Oh, woops

Originally posted by Q99
No, it's just a common insult that fit fairly well.

It's not common. using words like "idiot" is common, or calling someone gay. Roleplaying references are not the norm when it comes to insults. Fact is he makes a rarely used insult in perfect timing that bares very big reflection on my recent activity.



You are being a fool. It was specific, he talks about my charisma and intellect, a single day after i had made my character in ushgarak's game, which was laregely accurate to my character creation choices.





Yes it did, that it ewasn;t a dump stat doesn;t mean that it had nothing to do with it, my int was sill clearly lower than chr.



You are acting the idiot/. Bush had nothing to do with the insult, he just served as real weorld example of an idiot. The insult wS TO DO WITH INT AND CHARISMA.




A specific insult a day after my recent activty that it largely reflects on in my int being lower than my charsima...



let us loom atsht facts and stop being stupid.

1. It is not a common insult. That it is used and that I am a roleplay itself is kind of a coincidedece.

2. It was made a day after I made my character in Ushgarak's game, a person that Lucein and Janus seem to know.

3. It at least in part references my char being higher than my int.

4. I am not denying that he was insulting me but it was clearly a double entende/pun, inuslting me as a person with rerevcent to my charactero creatin choices.



You are wrong at acting like a fool btw. Also learn to spell, genius.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
You are wrong at acting like a fool btw. Also learn to spell, genius.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-er3AmNgsRjE/TWB-qHRDbbI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/m0jHc3OKSHo/s400/hypocrite2.jpg

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
It's not common. using words like "idiot" is common, or calling someone gay. Roleplaying references are not the norm when it comes to insults. Fact is he makes a rarely used insult in perfect timing that bares very big reflection on my recent activity.



You are being a fool. It was specific, he talks about my charisma and intellect, a single day after i had made my character in ushgarak's game, which was laregely accurate to my character creation choices.





Yes it did, that it ewasn;t a dump stat doesn;t mean that it had nothing to do with it, my int was sill clearly lower than chr.



You are acting the idiot/. Bush had nothing to do with the insult, he just served as real weorld example of an idiot. The insult wS TO DO WITH INT AND CHARISMA.




A specific insult a day after my recent activty that it largely reflects on in my int being lower than my charsima...



let us loom atsht facts and stop being stupid.

1. It is not a common insult. That it is used and that I am a roleplay itself is kind of a coincidedece.

2. It was made a day after I made my character in Ushgarak's game, a person that Lucein and Janus seem to know.

3. It at least in part references my char being higher than my int.

4. I am not denying that he was insulting me but it was clearly a double entende/pun, inuslting me as a person with rerevcent to my charactero creatin choices.



You are wrong at acting like a fool btw. Also learn to spell, genius.

As Space Moose said:

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Instant Grammar Check

Unless you're using hooks for hands or trying to hammer out replies before the warden removes your internet access, there's simply no excuse for your typos.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
As Space Moose said:

You were adopted. Your parents don't love you and I hate you.

Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
You were adopted. Your parents don't love you and I hate you. > >

In all-out brawl:

Mace wins with Sidious and loses to Yoda.

Sidious loses to Mace and stalemates Yoda.

Yoda wins with Mace and stalemates Sidious.


Yoda prevails.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
In all-out brawl:

Mace wins with Sidious and loses to Yoda.

Sidious loses to Mace and stalemates Yoda.

Yoda wins with Mace and stalemates Sidious.


Yoda prevails.

Nah Yoda beats Sidious in combat on neutral ground. And It's not as close as Mace vs Sidious.

The script confirms this. The confusion comes from the movie which leaves out the scene where Yoda disarms Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Yoda beats Sidious in combat on neutral ground. And It's not as close as Mace vs Sidious.

The script confirms this. The confusion comes from the movie which leaves out the scene where Yoda disarms Sidious.

While I don't disagree with your conclusion, isn't the script based on a version of the fight we don't see? After all, the "behind the scenes" concept design of the fight was fairly different, but better showcased Yoda's dominance in saber combat and the Force.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
While I don't disagree with your conclusion, isn't the script based on a version of the fight we don't see? After all, the "behind the scenes" concept design of the fight was fairly different, but better showcased Yoda's dominance in saber combat and the Force.

Thing is in the movie we see Yoda in a Saber fight with Sidious one scene, and the next we see Sidious (who doesn't seem to have his lightsaber any more) is keeping his distance and throwing senate pods at Yoda.

So there's obviously a scene missing in the middle, which the script has, but for some reason they left it out of the movie. I personally think it was mistake to leave that scene out because the end result was confusing.

So I would suggest that if the script contradicts the movie, then we ignore it because the scene was obviously changed.

On the other hand if it fills in gaps in the movie we don't see then we should take it as G-Canon Imo.

They probably left it out of the movie because it doesn't make any sense. Yoda disarms Sidious and then just jumps away. Its like he knows that he has to lose or screw up canon.

^ They could have had Sidious use the environment to escape Yoda's wrath. Jump onto another senate pod after getting disarmed or something.

But the way it was done after having Mace defeat Sidious made it seem like Mace was more powerful than Yoda. And a lot of people do think that because of the way it was depicted in the end.

I'm just pointing out what the script says. Yoda disarms him then jumps away. It doesn't make any sense.

The script shouldn't be taken as acceptable evidence at all imo. If it was a deleted scene maaaaaybe, but they didn't even bother to film it so its obviously non-canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm just pointing out what the script says. Yoda disarms him then jumps away. It doesn't make any sense.

The script shouldn't be taken as acceptable evidence at all imo. If it was a deleted scene maaaaaybe, but they didn't even bother to film it so its obviously non-canon.

That would make most the novel non-canon as well. But as long as there's no contradiction between the novel and movie we take the novel passages as canon.

Similarly I would take the script not only as canon, but as G-Canon, since it was written by the man himself. And shows how he perceived the fight.

With the scene in question, the fact is there is a missing scene there whether it was filmed or not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That would make most the novel non-canon as well. But as long as there's no contradiction between the novel and movie we take the novel passages as canon.

Similarly I would take the script not only as canon, but as G-Canon, since it was written by the man himself. And shows how he perceived the fight.

With the scene in question, the fact is there is a missing scene there whether it was filmed or not.

Right. The scripts are considered as upper level canon (G-canon if I remember correctly) and are absolute in their authority as long as they don't directly contradict what we see in the movies.

DP, you've come to a rational conclusion there. Even though the clarity of whether or not Yoda truly disarmed Sidious is difficult to see, logic dictates that we assume the answer most easily inferred without any contradicting evidence, and that is the script and behind the scenes showing Yoda disarming Sidious, even though the jumping away part is entirely stupid (just like the Annie-Obi-Wan disco light show twirling).

This is the scene in question from the script:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.




Yes Yoda seemed to jump away for no reason when he had the Emporer beaten. But that's no reason to render it non-canon. There's probably just something missed out from the script there.

Important thing is it shows what happened to Sidious's lightsaber. Not only did Yoda disarm him but he seemed to overpower him quite badly in the Sabers portion of the fight.

Another important thing to note is the scene goes on to the part of the fight we see in the movie.

Yoda was obviously superior to Sidious in both saber and Force prowess based on what we know from the movie and script.

One would think that if it were that obvious, it would be reflected in the droves of supplementary material (chronologies, atlases, visual & essential guides, etc.) written post-2005 by LucasFilm employees. Are we to infer from this that none of them have seen the movie?

Originally posted by PunyGod
One would think that if it were that obvious, it would be reflected in the droves of supplementary material (chronologies, atlases, visual & essential guides, etc.) written post-2005 by LucasFilm employees. Are we to infer from this that none of them have seen the movie?

Wasn't completely obvious in the movie. It's the missing scene from the script that makes it more clear.

All the post ROTS material simply says Yoda failed to defeat him. Well he did fail to beat him but from a tactical disadvantaged position. Jumping around the edge of the senate pod in the Saber fight, and with Sidious having the high ground in the Force fight.

Sidious tried flee from Yoda twice. First when he felt his power. Second time into the Senate chamber. He tries his best to survive getting any tactical advantage he could.

And btw I'm not saying Yoda's more powerful than the Emperor. He might not be. And I'm certain the Emperor's more powerful in the Force than Mace Windu.

But Sidious wasn't combat hardened for the last 10-15 years. In a combat situation either of the 2 most powerful Jedi can take him. Especially in a Lightsaber fight. (Mace with a lot more difficulty than Yoda though).

But a problem arises when Yoda relents and leaps away for no reason articulated in the script. Given how it portrays the fight to be overwhelmingly in favor of Yoda and Sidious was, at that critical point, already in a position of tremendous disadvantage: weaponless, in close quarters, and his lightning being deflected... I'm unsure what would have caused Yoda to flee. Which is perhaps why the scene didn't make it into the film?



No, many flat out say that Yoda was outmatched. I put most of my sources away, but I still have the Atlas (pg. 154): "Yoda could not withstand the Emperor's Sith powers. He fled, regrouping at the Polis Massa asteroids."



Yoda fled from Sidious at the conclusion of the duel. Are we to infer he is weaker?



Given that Sidious's initial strike was far more potent than Yoda's retaliatory push, I'm unconvinced that it was because Sidious concluded the inevitability of his own demise.



That sounds like him.



I don't dispute the idea that Yoda's lightsaber prowess exceeded the Emperor's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That would make most the novel non-canon as well. But as long as there's no contradiction between the novel and movie we take the novel passages as canon.

Similarly I would take the script not only as canon, but as G-Canon, since it was written by the man himself. And shows how he perceived the fight.

With the scene in question, the fact is there is a missing scene there whether it was filmed or not.

Well thats rather different since the novel is something that is licensed and recognised within canon. Its an actual product. The script is not. It is literally just the notes for the movie, and in this case Lucas decided not to use it for the actual movie.

Yes it was written by the man himself.... and then not used in the movie. Lucas made the specific choice not to use that scene. And he made that choice early since they didn't even film it. Its non-canon.

I'm not seeking to undermine the importance of the script; I have absolutely no problem with the idea that Yoda overcame Sidious blade-to-blade, since one is a confirmed master of all 7 forms (The Complete Clone Wars Encyclopedia) and the other isn't known to have touched a lightsaber in over a decade. But the script portrays the entire conflict to be unusually lopsided... even though, later, Yoda laments to Qui-Gon about it:

PunyGod I love the name.

Originally posted by PunyGod
But a problem arises when Yoda relents and leaps away for no reason articulated in the script. Given how it portrays the fight to be overwhelmingly in favor of Yoda and Sidious was, at that critical point, already in a position of tremendous disadvantage: weaponless, in close quarters, and his lightning being deflected... I'm unsure what would have caused Yoda to flee. Which is perhaps why the scene didn't make it into the film?

Yes but does that mean it didn't happen? It does fill the gap in between the scenes we see.

Perhaps if Lucas decided to film that scene then then he would have added something for that to make sense e.g. The Emperor leaps to another pod before Yoda can strike him down.



Originally posted by PunyGod
No, many flat out say that Yoda was outmatched. I put most of my sources away, but I still have the Atlas (pg. 154): "Yoda could not withstand the Emperor's Sith powers. He fled, regrouping at the Polis Massa asteroids."

Well I would question that statement simply because the movie showed Yoda withstanding Sidious's Sith powers did it not? Yoda just fell further. I wouldn't think that was anything to do with being less powerful.



Originally posted by PunyGod
Yoda fled from Sidious at the conclusion of the duel. Are we to infer he is weaker?

No, but he had lost at that point. He took a huge fall and considering both the AOTC novel and script state Yoda was exhausted after his little tumble with Count Dooku, I'm sure he would have been more than exhausted with his all out against a more powerful Sith Lord.



Originally posted by PunyGod
I don't dispute the idea that Yoda's lightsaber prowess exceeded the Emperor's.

Which is why I believe the script version of the fight. That and the fact it describes a scene in between the ones we see, so explains how the fight got there.

Originally posted by PunyGod
I'm not seeking to undermine the importance of the script; I have absolutely no problem with the idea that Yoda overcame Sidious blade-to-blade, since one is a confirmed master of all 7 forms (The Complete Clone Wars Encyclopedia) and the other isn't known to have touched a lightsaber in over a decade. But the script portrays the entire conflict to be unusually lopsided... even though, later, Yoda laments to Qui-Gon about it:



^ There's no doubt Yoda failed. However that doesn't mean he wasn't a superior combatant. The fight didn't exactly take place on neutral ground. Jumping from Pod to Pod. Obi-Wan also defeated a much more dangerous combatant than himself by taking advantage of an uneven terrain.

Plus Yoda knew he probably wouldn't get another chance at an assassination attempt like that.

Btw I wonder if Sidious will pick up his Lightsaber once in the clone wars to possibly kill Savage Opress??

At no point does that reference Yoda being inferior to Sidious in saber combat, which was the point in contention.

Everything we know about the fight, from the frame-by-frame captures I showed to the script which framed the fight to the original computerized behind-the-scenes from the Blu-Ray all lead us to conclude one thing: on neutral ground, Sidious didn't have a snowball's chance in hell at defeating Yoda in saber combat.

What you're attempting to do here (poorly, I might add) is cast some kind of doubt on this by using selected sources to support the idea of "defeat = Yoda's inferiority". That argument cannot be sustained. Yoda is conclusively superior to Sidious in saber combat, and moreover as we saw also in the film, superior in Force usage.

From a position of complete disadvantage, Yoda turned the lightning around on Sidious utterly. The pod throwing contest ended in Sidious fleeing from an upwards-shot pod rather than exert any Force power to deflect or stop it himself. The implications are very strong that Sidious can only win this fight by tactical advantage and dirty tricks, as Yoda is his superior.



^ This is a red herring.

Confirmation of reference materials which themselves derive answers from primary canon material of victory are not conclusively proving of skill. After all, Richard I died of a crossbow-bolt during a siege. In a neutral setting, the peasant who fired the shot would be utterly destroyed by the king; why would we assume their skill levels are "close" or some such simply by virtue of a generalization?

The answer is we wouldn't. The G-canon material clearly shows Sidious being overmatched. An attempt to "spin" that in another direction is merely a confirmation of bias against all reason.

ty



The script implies that Yoda is faster still than Sidious, armed, and deflecting the Force lightning. What you're suggesting is that a slower, unarmed, weaker Sidious managed to elude Yoda in close quarters combat and put tremendous distance between the two of them without Yoda immediately pursuing. That appears to me to be an irreconcilable contradiction. Not to mention the script doesn't account for Sidious's travel from the Chancellor's podium to the distant Senate pod; after the two clash blades, the fight is interrupted by Anakin's duel with Obi-Wan. When it returns, Sidious has already abandoned the podium and has taken position on a platform, with Yoda finishing his leap from the podium in pursuit. The script, on the other hand, depicts Yoda fleeing and Sidious remaining on the podium.



He withstood the Emperor's Sith powers by falling? Perhaps the writers are cleverer than we thought. Cheeky bastards. mmm



Precisely, the point being that one need not necessarily be an inferior duelist to opt for a tactical retreat.



I submit that Sidious could have been disarmed without relying on the script's flawed representation of events.



The context of his discussion with spirit!Qui-Gon is what's important to examine: it begins with a lament for his failure to defeat Sidious and Qui-Gon consoles him by assuring Yoda that he'll achieve a power greater than any JediSith. Contextually, it would appear that Yoda felt he lacked the power to end the Sith threat.







There is no contention on that subject; what's being discussed is the degree to which Yoda enjoys superiority.



LucasFilm employees (and authors of the various guides and supplementary material released since) would disagree with what you claim to be a painfully obvious conclusion. Given that they have very likely seen ROTS, have access to at least as much information as ourselves, and are examined and edited thoroughly by LucasFilm authorities (such as Leland Chee or Sue Rostini, editor-in-chief), I remain skeptical.



What you're attempting to do here (poorly, I might add) is assert yourself as a higher authority than the very people who are employed by LucasFilm to define and explore the universe created by George Lucas, which is an argument that cannot be sustained unless your driver's license says George Lucas.



With extreme effort and physical pain, and even then was still hurled aside like a wrinkly green scrotum squeezed into a burlap condom.



He was also laughing into the back of his hand moments prior, too amused to even capitalize on his advantage during Yoda's preoccupation.



Given that he knocked Yoda unconscious, laughed at him at various points, and conclusively disarmed him rather casually, I submit that the implication is what is reflected in the film and subsequent EU material: Sidious outclasses Yoda.



Interesting that you concede the reference materials derive their answers from primary canon material... yet neglect the part that their conclusion differs from the one you offer. Doesn't that suggest you're wrong?



If the reference guides' assertion of victory are situational, I would agree.



According to you. According to canon sources, he was not.



I realize you suffer from a chronic condition that compels you to rabidly accuse others of bias, conspiracy, and general dishonesty whenever they disagree with you, but try to leash your insecurity plz.

Originally posted by PunyGod


The script implies that Yoda is faster still than Sidious, armed, and deflecting the Force lightning. What you're suggesting is that a slower, unarmed, weaker Sidious managed to elude Yoda in close quarters combat and put tremendous distance between the two of them without Yoda immediately pursuing.

I'm suggesting there would have been a reason Yoda could not immediately pursue which was missed out from the script.

Btw not sure it said Yoda was faster. Just that his ferocious Lightsaber assault had Palpatine toppling over and disarmed him.

The overpowering could have just been due to being a far more skilled swordsman. Not necessarily anything to do with being faster or stronger.

Originally posted by PunyGod
Not to mention the script doesn't account for Sidious's travel from the Chancellor's podium to the distant Senate pod; after the two clash blades, the fight is interrupted by Anakin's duel with Obi-Wan. When it returns, Sidious has already abandoned the podium and has taken position on a platform, with Yoda finishing his leap from the podium in pursuit.



Which surely just confirms there are things missing from the script.

But there's clearly also things missing in the movie. The movie doesn't show how they ended up in the senate room, and how the Saber fight ended.

Which is why I feel it would be completely reasonable for us to fill in as many of those gaps as we can from the script.

As to what happened at those times where there are gaps in the script and the movie all we're left with is speculation.

Hmm... I may be willing to concede to that. mmm

Actually there is a shot of them going to the senate room. They're fighting on Palpatines hover-podium and it rises up into the room.

Edit: And I don't care to be ignored POWER. estahuh

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually there is a shot of them going to the senate room. They're fighting on Palpatines hover-podium and it rises up into the room.

Edit: And I don't care to be ignored POWER. estahuh

Lol

Yeah i just noticed that shot. But the shot of how the Sword fight finishes is still missing.

So are you going to reply to my post or not? Because I still disagree on the script having any degree of canonicity in adding scenes that weren't in the movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So are you going to reply to my post or not? Because I still disagree on the script having any degree of canonicity in adding scenes that weren't in the movie.

Look here pudwacker. Your opinion on whether something is canon or not does not canon make. The script is confirmed G-canon, whether you like it or not. Get over it. Since the script doesn't DIRECTLY contradict other parts of the movie, there is no real issue.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So are you going to reply to my post or not? Because I still disagree on the script having any degree of canonicity in adding scenes that weren't in the movie.

yeahh....i totally disagree with that.

canon is canon unless directly and irrevocably contradicted by higher canon. that's always been the rule.

Originally posted by truejedi
canon is canon unless directly and irrevocably contradicted by higher canon. that's always been the rule.

indeed

but there are irreconcilable contradictions here son

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Look here pudwacker. Your opinion on whether something is canon or not does not canon make. The script is confirmed G-canon, whether you like it or not. Get over it. Since the script doesn't DIRECTLY contradict other parts of the movie, there is no real issue.

Where was it confirmed as G-canon?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where was it confirmed as G-canon?

The Holocron, which is purposed to set forth continuity/canon and which is maintained by Lucas Licensing confirms that the final releases of all six films, the movie novelizations, the radio dramas that are based on the films, the film scripts, and any material found in any other source (published or not) that comes directly from George Lucas himself is to be considerd G-canon (i.e. absolute canon).

Is there a source that states this?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is there a source that states this?

George Lucas, Leland Chee, http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4...

Page could not be found.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Page could not be found.

http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/4

"Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of "officialness"?"

"The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would override the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry. When determining canon levels for individual entries, anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. "T" canon comprises the theatrical release of The Clone Wars and The Clone Wars television series. The planned live-action television series would also likely fall under "T" canon."

-Leland Chee

Originally posted by PunyGod
indeed

but there are irreconcilable contradictions here son

Not in the part of the Yoda fight missing when the movie cuts away to Anakin and Obi-Wan's fight.

^ So we're all agreed it's canon that Yoda beat the crap out of Palpatine in the Sword fight?

And apparently he outdid Sidious w/ the Force as well. The positioning leading to the fall was what lead to Yoda's failure. In no way did Sidious outperform Yoda in a combat sense.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And apparently he outdid Sidious w/ the Force as well. The positioning leading to the fall was what lead to Yoda's failure. In no way did Sidious outperform Yoda in a combat sense.
Shot down Yoda with lightning right at the beginning.
Toyed multiple platforms laughably, while Yoda had to heavily concentrate and grimace on a single one.
The positioning didn't let to Yoda's failure. He used his last reserves to block that Force lightning. He didn't have any strength left to even slow his fall, he was Force exhausted by that time. If he did not fall down, Palpatine probably would have finished him.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2cd8zlv.jpg
(kudos to Janus)

Originally posted by Arhael
Shot down Yoda with lightning right at the beginning.
Toyed multiple platforms laughably, while Yoda had to heavily concentrate and grimace on a single one.
The positioning didn't let to Yuda's failure. He used his last reserves to block that Force lightning. He didn't have any strength left to even slow his fall, he was Force exhausted by that time. If he did not fall down, Palpatine probably would have finished him.

I'm not sure if you want to pursue the subject from this standpoint.
By the same token, in the movie we see that the moment Yoda starts to bend Sidious's FL, the Emperor has "OH Sh*t!" look on his face. Doesn't it indicate that he was being overpowered?

BTW. The single pod Yoda pushed, he did it against gravity. Sidious did not even attempt to block it.

I hardly see Yoda being overwhelemed anywhere in the fight, as you put it:

Originally posted by Arhael Palpatine probably would have finished him
Well, if they weren't blown apart, Yoda probably would have bent FL in Sidious's face.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
I'm not sure if you want to pursue the subject from this standpoint.
By the same token, in the movie we see that the moment Yoda starts to bend Sidious's FL, the Emperor has "OH Sh*t!" look on his face. Doesn't it indicate that he was being overpowered?

BTW. The single pod Yoda pushed, he did it against gravity. Sidious did not even attempt to block it.

I hardly see Yoda being overwhelemed anywhere in the fight, as you put it:


Well, if they weren't blown apart, Yoda probably would have bent FL in Sidious's face. It's actually good point about gravity. But I prefer to think about it as Yoda using Force more wisely rather, than overpowering as he dodged several platforms until Palpatine presumably got tired and then threw one himself.

Originally posted by Arhael
Shot down Yoda with lightning right at the beginning.

Ragdolled across the room by Yoda's Force push.


Originally posted by Arhael
Toyed multiple platforms laughably, while Yoda had to heavily concentrate and grimace on a single one.

Stopped mid flight (against gravity), manipulated, and thrown right back at Sidious who in turn tuck-tailed it out of there ("oh shit" look and all).


Originally posted by Arhael
The positioning didn't let to Yoda's failure. He used his last reserves to block that Force lightning. He didn't have any strength left to even slow his fall, he was Force exhausted by that time. If he did not fall down, Palpatine probably would have finished him.

If he didn't fall, in all likelihood, he would have finished Sidious. Sidious' best efforts (specifically his FL) were was shoved back in his face - TWICE!

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Stopped mid flight (against gravity), manipulated, and thrown right back at Sidious who in turn tuck-tailed it out of there ("oh shit" look and all).

I think the thing that worked the most against Sidious in that fight is that he was just laughing too much.

Sidious got too smug and it was clearly surprising counter for him.
If we talk about gravities, then Sidious lifted two platforms high in the air before throwing. Also, platforms were stationary attached to sides, so it required considerable effort to rip them of as well.
Ones again it shows how Palpatine abuses the Force overexerting him unnecessary, while Yoda uses less power more wisely to equally counter him.


How? How would he have finished Sidious? He didn't have strength left even to slow his fall. No weapon either. Force exhausted, small and ancient creature. Sidious would choke him with bare hands, if we don't count possibility of another lightning burst.

Basically Sidious evened the odds by disarming Yoda with the FL blast while he was in a mid-leap.

I think Yoda got unlucky there. He disarmed Sidious by just being a much better swordsman, and as long as he had his Saber he was going to win. Losing that is what cost him the fight Imo.

Of course it looked like he was going to win the Force battle as well (though obviously this was much closer than the Saber fight). But again Yoda got unlucky by being in a worse position hence falling further.

It wasn't about him being lucky or not (In my experience, there is no such thing as luck), rather he was outmanuvered by Palpatine.

Maybe Yoda is the superior combatant (I, however, still see them as equals), but Palpatine used the surrondings to his advantage which is why he won.

One was on his feet in seconds, the other was unconscious and drooling on the floor.



...After indulging in hysterical laughter, so at ease was he.



Yoda was knocked unconscious, casually disarmed, and sent plummeting hundreds of feet to the Senate floor and slinked away in utter defeat. I reject your conclusion, sir. excellent



This is inaccurate; Yoda had landed and brandished his lightsaber in a two-handed grip when Sidious relieved him of it.

'ello Gid, err Herb, err PunyGod... agh nevermind. ***k it!

Remember that it was a hover-podium. Would gravity come much into play?

JT
'ello Gid, err Herb, err PunyGod... agh nevermind. ***k it!

You attempted to goad me by proclaiming your victory over me........















..............................................you succeeded brilliantly teehehe

Your failure is complete, as was my victory. ...right? ...please?

YOUR MOM WAS COMPLETE LAST NIGHT O SNAP

/victory

{check your inbox in the next 5 mins.}

Originally posted by ares834
It wasn't about him being lucky or not (In my experience, there is no such thing as luck),

Well that's how the Jedi see things happening. Not by luck, but by the will of the force.

Originally posted by ares834
rather he was outmanuvered by Palpatine.

Maybe Yoda is the superior combatant (I, however, still see them as equals), but Palpatine used the surrondings to his advantage which is why he won.

Yeah that's how I'm seeing it. Yoda the superior combatant. (Even though Sidious might be more overall powerful). But Sidious won due to being me tactful in the given environment.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim




This is inaccurate; Yoda had landed and brandished his lightsaber in a two-handed grip when Sidious relieved him of it.

Fine, right after the leap. Point being he was caught off guard. Had they fought on neutral ground, that wouldn't have happened.

I see how he was caught off guard.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
One was on his feet in seconds, the other was unconscious and drooling on the floor.



...After indulging in hysterical laughter, so at ease was he.



Yoda was knocked unconscious, casually disarmed, and sent plummeting hundreds of feet to the Senate floor and slinked away in utter defeat. I reject your conclusion, sir. excellent



This is inaccurate; Yoda had landed and brandished his lightsaber in a two-handed grip when Sidious relieved him of it.

Gonna get Sidious this shirt:

http://s14.postimage.org/rmjb4d131/warning_i_have_an_over_protective_boyfriend_tshi.jpg

I see you've approached that elusive level of butthurt where your anus is weeping almost as much as your eyes.

U mad, bro?

I was going to say something about your mother already reaching that point, but the truth is she could pass a Buick without getting the tires wet at this stage. Don't be mad, bro.

Ur definitely mad, bro.

I'm sure there's more than just tires not getting wet in your sex life.

You're right. Since I sent her packing, the couch is dry for once.

Always.



It's a good thing she's packing since you obviously aren't. U getting madder, bro?

I'm finding the link between this discussion and your username quite hilarious at this point.

By the sounds of it, you aren't the only quim thats mewling.

Yes, his is mewling quite louder.

Well the Sidious is the best out of the three with Yoda coming in second and Windu in a distant 3rd since the only reason he was able to go toe to toe with sidious was because of all the amps he had

Windu might solo both with his Sidious amp and shatterpoint

Sidious probably has this. ROTS has the roughest time of it, but any future versions of Sidious will win more definitively. Sidious only loses if Mace and Yoda gang up on him.

Yoda pretty clearly has second place.

Sidious most likely. If not Sidious, then Windu.

THE EMPEROR WINS

Yoda and Sidious are obviously very close in terms of combat ability, but I'll have to say Sidious is the more powerful. Simply because it makes sense from a narrative point of view- That only the Skywalkers could potentially surpass Sidious.