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IG vs Phoenix Force (highest avatars)

I'd say IG... Its well above every abstract in Marvel but LT... Infinite power is not to be messed with...

Phoenix Force

Originally posted by Dizzle
I'd say IG... Its well above every abstract in Marvel but LT... Infinite power is not to be messed with...

In FF recently it said Phoenix was responsible for the creation of all the incarnations of abstracts such as Eternity and infinity in the multiverse. The Phoenix created all life within the multiverse it is the primal force of creation. The Infinity Gems give ultimate control of a universe that is why when Thanos defeated eternity he went on to take eternitys role and became the universe personified. The most powerful being within Marvel is LT the phoenix not being an entity unto its self but the collective consciousness of all of the avatars is the most powerful force as stated in uncanny xmen 137. This fact has never been retconned.

Jean would take this. The M'kraan crystal was more powerful than the infinity gauntlet and jean dealt with it.

what's this, galacticstorm weighing in on a PF thread?? i can't believe it . . .

hehe

by the way, i've no idea here, because i don't know the full scope of IG's power. if it's powers work in all universes like they do in OUR universe, then it may have a shot. if not, it's just another univsersal artifact and can't touch the full PF.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In FF recently it said Phoenix was responsible for the creation of all the incarnations of abstracts such as Eternity and infinity in the multiverse. The Phoenix created all life within the multiverse it is the primal force of creation. The Infinity Gems give ultimate control of a universe that is why when Thanos defeated eternity he went on to take eternitys role and became the universe personified. The most powerful being within Marvel is LT the phoenix not being an entity unto its self but the collective consciousness of all of the avatars is the most powerful force as stated in uncanny xmen 137. This fact has never been retconned.

Jean would take this. The M'kraan crystal was more powerful than the infinity gauntlet and jean dealt with it.

IG slapped Eternity, Death, Mephisto, Galactus, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.

It had three mini series of it's own which crossed over into FF, Spiderman, X-Men, Avengers, Infinity Watched, etc.

Whatever happened in FF doesn't prove much. When all is said and done - the IG has proven to be more powerful.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In FF recently it said Phoenix was responsible for the creation of all the incarnations of abstracts such as Eternity and infinity in the multiverse. The Phoenix created all life within the multiverse it is the primal force of creation. The Infinity Gems give ultimate control of a universe that is why when Thanos defeated eternity he went on to take eternitys role and became the universe personified. The most powerful being within Marvel is LT the phoenix not being an entity unto its self but the collective consciousness of all of the avatars is the most powerful force as stated in uncanny xmen 137. This fact has never been retconned.

Jean would take this. The M'kraan crystal was more powerful than the infinity gauntlet and jean dealt with it.

PF had to obey LT , because he was going to destory the universe.

Originally posted by kgkg
PF had to obey LT , because he was going to destory the universe.

When was this?

Originally posted by leonidas
by the way, i've no idea here, because i don't know the full scope of IG's power. if it's powers work in all universes like they do in OUR universe, then it may have a shot. if not, it's just another univsersal artifact and can't touch the full PF.

Well, in the JLA vs. Avengers crossover, Darkseid acquired the IG, but discarded it when it proved to be powerless in the DC universe. I'm not sure if that completely counts as both IG and Phoenix Force are a part of Marvel.

Jean wouldn't be sh*t in the DC universe

Jean: Superman! you dare defy me?! I am Phe-oh sh*t it's not working!

Originally posted by Mainstream
Jean wouldn't be sh*t in the DC universe

Jean: Superman! you dare defy me?! I am Phe-oh sh*t it's not working!
DC universe and Marvel universe are outside their multiverse

You can call both universes the Oniverse.(the brothers hehe)

Originally posted by Beyonder
IG slapped Eternity, Death, Mephisto, Galactus, Celestials, Chaos, Order, etc.

It had three mini series of it's own which crossed over into FF, Spiderman, X-Men, Avengers, Infinity Watched, etc.

Whatever happened in FF doesn't prove much. When all is said and done - the IG has proven to be more powerful.

At the end of the day in uncanny xmen 137 phoenix was said to be second in power only to the creator. Phoenix was also said to be THE primal force of creation in marvel. This was prior to IG sagas

In Xmen Forever Eternity says that the Phoenix is the force that ends everything and then creates life again. This was after IG sagas

In very recent issues of FF the phoenix was stated as the force which created multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity and so on. This too was after IG sagas.

As ive said countless times before the phoenixes origins and its relationship/connection with its avatars have been the only things tampered with in its existence. Never has its power or purpose been altered. FF proves this. Its in the comics whether you choose to believe this or not. As such i dont hav to argue anymore.

The M'kraan crystal is evidently more powerful than the IG. It is the nexus of all realities in the multiverse and its neutron galaxy was blinking out all of exstence not just the universe. Jean halted it with her power.

The IG has never shown as much power or influence as that. It allowed Thanos complete dominion of the universe. When he used its power against the abstracts and he defeated them he became eternity. A living universe. Marvels stance with phoenix has always been that it is the primal force of creation and recent issues of FF have confirmed this. So the IG allowed Thanos to slap around Eternity, he/its just a creation of the phoenix anyway. Jean held a universe in her hand as if it were nothing. Whats your point?

If Strange was able to keep himself and others immune to the effects of the IG twice(for a few minutes), PF should be above the IG i'd think.

Originally posted by long pig
If Strange was able to keep himself and others immune to the effects of the IG twice(for a few minutes), PF should be above the IG i'd think.

This is true... I have the comic. Wow. Maybe the Phoenix Force is above the Infinity Gauntlet.

Look at this, it's the coolest thing I've ever seen.
http://img99.echo.cx/img99/9060/strange148ak.png

Adam tells strange to do it, SS notices Strange doing his cool finger tricks, Thanos sees it.....Strange puts his other hand behind his back, then bam! total immunity to the effects of the IG.

So friggin cool!

yay Phoenix

Name another person who could do something like that?
Nobody.

Strange owns

Originally posted by long pig
If Strange was able to keep himself and others immune to the effects of the IG twice(for a few minutes), PF should be above the IG i'd think.
Strange has challeged LT that doesn't mean IG is lower in terms of power.

Why do some of you keep bring Phoenix Force is life it is creator , so what it's only a process.

Phonix force can't fight/or act , only avatars can.

And IG has done more thing than the Highest Phoenix avatars.

I have shown that Death is multiversal
Eternity hold many universes in his hands(not just one) and every being from is part of him.
Choas , Order , etc have thire own domain

Ig owned them all

Highest Phoenix avatar has done is heal a Universe.

IG has power over space/time/soul etc

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the day in uncanny xmen 137 phoenix was said to be second in power only to the creator. Phoenix was also said to be THE primal force of creation in marvel. This was prior to IG sagas

In Xmen Forever Eternity says that the Phoenix is the force that ends everything and then creates life again. This was after IG sagas

In very recent issues of FF the phoenix was stated as the force which created multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity and so on. This too was after IG sagas.

As ive said countless times before the phoenixes origins and its relationship/connection with its avatars have been the only things tampered with in its existence. Never has its power or purpose been altered. FF proves this. Its in the comics whether you choose to believe this or not. As such i dont hav to argue anymore.

The M'kraan crystal is evidently more powerful than the IG. It is the nexus of all realities in the multiverse and its neutron galaxy was blinking out all of exstence not just the universe. Jean halted it with her power.

The IG has never shown as much power or influence as that. It allowed Thanos complete dominion of the universe. When he used its power against the abstracts and he defeated them he became eternity. A living universe. Marvels stance with phoenix has always been that it is the primal force of creation and recent issues of FF have confirmed this. So the IG allowed Thanos to slap around Eternity, he/its just a creation of the phoenix anyway. Jean held a universe in her hand as if it were nothing. Whats your point?

Xmen Forever also said that Humans will evolve into Eternity , and will replace that Universe.

That doesn't mean Human > Eternity

When Death is talking to phoenix he says the enties are scared of evolution.

"The IG has never shown as much power or influence as that. It allowed Thanos complete dominion of the universe."
Not true when beyonder killed death. It had an effect on the whole Multiverse , so she like the Phoenix has effect over the Multiverse.

Also eternity holds many Universes from different realities in his hands.

IG owned both of them so it to has a multiversal force on MU multiverse

Wai, Strange bypassed the IG powers for a while?
The Doc is uber

The only reason Strange was able to hide Warlock from the gauntlet, was because nebula wasn't adept at using the gauntlet like thanos. While Thanos had the gauntlet, strange, surfer and adam were all hiding in warlocks dimension, as they knew if they came out they would get their asses handed to them.

Originally posted by kgkg
Strange has challeged LT that doesn't mean IG is lower in terms of power.

Why do some of you keep bring Phoenix Force is life it is creator , so what it's only a process.

Phonix force can't fight/or act , only avatars can.

And IG has done more thing than the Highest Phoenix avatars.

I have shown that Death is multiversal
Eternity hold many universes in his hands(not just one) and every being from is part of him.
Choas , Order , etc have thire own domain

Ig owned them all

Highest Phoenix avatar has done is heal a Universe.

IG has power over space/time/soul etc

Isnt virtually everything just a process KG whats your point? The phoenix creates the multiverse and then in the natural scheme of things is the thing that ends all that is.

You dont need to tell me of all people repeatedly that the phoenix cant act without avatars. Although thats not strictly correct is it KG. The Phoenix chooses not to act independently for fear of of draining life from future generations because remember it is the force that gives life to them after all. Remember Phoenix and its avatars are one so when i or others say phoenix dont assume we're just talking of the separate force.

You havent conclusively shown that Death is multiversal KG. Far from it. Eternity is not multiversal that is not debatable it is fact in Marvel. There are many alternate versions of him/it. Eternity in the IG sagas was shown as the top of the abstracts without a doubt. If death was multiversal then that would not be the case. Phoenix created eternity as it did the other abstracts. Without Phoenix there would be no death because there would be no life. Death talks of how it has no power over Phoenix whatsoever just check out classic Xmen. Whereas all the abstracts at some time occupy deaths towers within the white hot room. Phoenix forever exists outside of time/space (things the IG holds power over)


Eternity in Xmen forever was visualising what he was saying. He wasnt literally holdng actual universes in his hands. He is after all just a living universe himself. He is not multiversal that is not debatable. He might no about multiversal affairs due to being one of the most powerful things in it but his power and influence do not cover the extent of it. Jean was literally holding the universe in her hands. You know this because if you read that issue it is quite evident and she goes on to use her powers to heal it and telekinetically revserse its timeline. After this is done the comic reverts back to Jeans funeral like the 'Here Comes Tomorrow' future never existed because jean saw to it that it never.

As for Chaos and order having their own domains again. Whats your point? Many beings have thgeir own domains where they rule absolutely. That means nothing when it comes to multiversal affairs. Those two still got punked by Thanos with the IG.

The highest thing an avatar has done is not just heal a universe. What you have to remember about that event KG is that this was done on a whim with no effort at all. One of the other avatars within the white hot room remarked that he would have just let 616 die as if it was insignificant in the scheme of things. Jean however coming from that universe and having loved ones within in chose to heal it and reverse its timeline. That is far from the full extent of her power as phoenix of the white crown. In that position she has access to as much power as is required for her to carry out her work and when youre tapping into something that creates and destroys the multiverse cyclically and is one with all life then just imagine the feats jean is capable of if she held a universe an eternity in her hand literally.

The highest feat Jean has shown in the comics is to contain the power of the M'Kraan crystaland that is one of the highest feats achieved by any being below TOAA/Presence types in any comic. The M'kraan crystal was blinking out allllll that is. As if it were nothing. All reality in existence was coming apart at the seams. Jean basically held on to existence and sewed it back together with her power. The m'kraan crystals power far exceeds that of the IG that is quite evident. The IG just allowed Thanos mastery over the universe and allowed him to become eternity. A big feat but theres no comparison.

For christs sake Stranges power allowed him to shield himself from the effects of the IG. That in itself tells you that the IG's power and influence are not an absolute multiversal force. Oh yes Strange may have challenged LT but he couldnt negate the effects of LT's power on himself. Strange did just that with the IG not only on himself but others as well. Im sorry but Phoenix of the white crown is clearly more powerful than the IG.

If we're going by feats Jean has held the multiverse together and sewed it back together, she has held a universe in her hand and healed it and telekinetically reversed its timeline.

The IG made Thanos master of a universe and allowed him to become eternity.

NO COMPARISON

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


The M'kraan crystal is evidently more powerful than the IG. It is the nexus of all realities in the multiverse and its neutron galaxy was blinking out all of exstence not just the universe. Jean halted it with her power.


But LT could also stop M'Krann crystal.

''Strange has challeged LT that doesn't mean IG is lower in terms of power.''

Strange challenge LT, that was for the first time we saw LT to apper in comic. Strange didn't know who LT was.
IG is far...far beyond Strange aslo, and PF and M'Krann crystal are beyond IG.

In SWII when beyonder killed death , it had an effect on the whole multiverse which = Multiversal

-Death was also seen giving Jean advice beyond the universes ---- again multiversal

- Eternity holds many universes has been shown few times.

So are saying people outside the universe don't die of course they do.
Death has no power over phoenix doesn't mean much , death doesn't have power over many beings in the universe that are immortal.

IG holds power only over space/time - Space/time = Eternity , Choas , death etc. are not effect by space/time which is eternity.

IG - power over eternity ---- many universes
Death ----------------------Multisersal
C/order-------------------- Different realms beyond the universe
IG = Multiversal



not only in X-men , Eternity holds many universes in his hands he has said that few times already(same thing as phonix) he has can also bring anyone he uses as his so called slave because they are part of him.

- SSII Eternity was seen as the stongest(one of the) in the Multiverse not the universe.


These so called realm are outside of the So called Universes.
Order and chaos even said what is eternity to Us? nothing. We are beyond his reach

Therefore IG having has multiversal effect.


not true IG is as smart as it's wielder in this case

that girl was a mentally retarted fool(dumb).

Thanos with IG whiped 50% of the universe.

how is she more powerful again?

Even the Phonix Force had to Obey LT

if she is the creator it whouldn't have to.


Again not true IG didn't make Thanos the universe he was the ultimate force.

The only thing that change from IG , to HOTU was

IG couldn't defeated by LT , HOTU made Omniversal (God)- He has all , everything

as for everything you said , you are saying Phoenix force = TAOO creator etc which is false.

Phoenix force had to obey to LT in a issue to save the universe/earth

Originally posted by Maestro
The only reason Strange was able to hide Warlock from the gauntlet, was because nebula wasn't adept at using the gauntlet like thanos. While Thanos had the gauntlet, strange, surfer and adam were all hiding in warlocks dimension, as they knew if they came out they would get their asses handed to them.

Strange did it again while Adam had the IG.
He even un did things that Adam did with the IG.

No doubt he couldn't do it forever, but he still negated the effects for a few seconds.
But, PF seems at least as high up on the food chain as the IG.

"Eternity holds many universes has been shown few times."

Yet after doing so he didnt act in a way or events didnt change in the comics to show it was anything but a visualisation. Eternity is known to be merely the living embodiment of a universe. There are many eternities this proves nothing.


"Death has no power over phoenix doesn't" mean much , death doesn't have power over many beings in the universe that are immortal."

Not so KG. Immortal just like invulnerable and limitless are thrown around in comics and you of all people should know not to take them literally because there are different degrees of all of these despite what these words actually mean. For example the etrenals, the externals and the olympians are 'immortal' however death still holds power over them they can still die. If subjected to force enough to disintegrate the majority of their bodies at a molecular level then all of these races will die. That is fact. Phoenix is life and can never truly die. Death exists only because of phoenix.

"not true IG is as smart as it's wielder in this case

that girl was a mentally retarted fool(dumb).

Thanos with IG whiped 50% of the universe."

Your half way correct but not exactly there KG.

The IG's potential depends on its user. Its power is supposedly infinite within a universe however thanos' niece gave an order and this was resisted. She might not have been as smart as Thanos but that doesnt matter. That just means thanos would be more inventive and perhaps more dangerous with his usage of the IG. They both would have access to the same supposedly infinite power levels. She made a wish and Strange negated the effects simple as. Thanos with the IG could have made the same wish and it wouldnt have made a difference Strange could still have resisted. Thanos might make the same wish but differently worded so as to achieve the exact result he desires but thats different. Thats just using the power more effectively.

"Even the Phonix Force had to Obey LT

if she is the creator it whouldn't have to"

Im sorry but where was this? Youre usually good with coming up with scans to prove your point do you want to carry on the tradition?

Also the phoenix force being the creator of the multiverse isnt in doubt its in the comics ive already listed refernces. Its fact. Deal with it. So Thanos slapped around eternity. Phoenix created him along with potentially billions of alternate reality versions of him as well.


"Again not true IG didn't make Thanos the universe he was the ultimate force."



The watcher states that eternity position is the center of reality and that the IG allowed thanos to usurp him and take on that role. Thanos is then shown as a jet black being looking down from the heavens with stars and so on composing his body. I think its safe to say he became eternity.

"Thanos with IG whiped 50% of the universe.

how is she more powerful again?"

How about holding the universe Thanos is a part of and had to duke it out in even after becoming the ultimate force and completely reshaping its time and space from beyond the multiverse. Beyond the influence of the IG. How about saving the lives of a whole existence woth of eternities as opposed to duking it out with one. *sigh* No comparison.

"IG couldn't defeated by LT , HOTU made Omniversal (God)- He has all , everything"

Kind of like what Marvel state Phoenix is yeah? Its in the comics im afraid.

"as for everything you said , you are saying Phoenix force = TAOO creator etc which is false."

It is not false it is just not directly stated in the comics but merely suggested by Chris C in his creation of phoenix and all the phoenix stories he wrote and also implied by Grant M by using trems and phrases directly linked to God. Either way im not going to go on about that because i dont need to. What is set in stone about Phoenix in the comics is that it creates the multiverse and destroys the multiverse cyclically. It is one with all life. The stars the planets etc. It creates the abstracts such as eternity etc. It exists outside of the multiverse beyond space and time so beyond the influence of artifacts like the IG and that is not debatable. Its avatars are one with the phoenix and it is they who carry out these tasks in its name.

Did you see Phoenix in the Infinity Gauntlet Saga? No. Why you might think. Well its shown in the comics that the phoenixes exist in the white hot room the place which contains the multiverse and where all the universes are represented as mere spheres of energy. From here they can survey existence and see the outcomes of events. That is how they know when and where to reincarnate themselves within reality below so as to interfere with an event down below which could affect the balance of existence without their intervention. The phoenix is greater than the likes of its creations it is at least as powerful as LT so why wasnt it one of the beings Thanos took out in his quest to be the ultimate power within the universe? Because the phoenix is greater than the IG and exists beyond its influence. The phoenixes can see the outcomes of events and just like LT chose not to interfere so it seems the phoenixes did to.

Who's TAOO?

Was it me or was anyone else weirded out when Thanos asked his niece Nebula to be his concubine?

And we wonder why his people look so funny.

Lol I think KG was tired

Originally posted by long pig
Strange did it again while Adam had the IG.
He even un did things that Adam did with the IG.

No doubt he couldn't do it forever, but he still negated the effects for a few seconds.
But, PF seems at least as high up on the food chain as the IG.

LT asked Warlock to give up the gauntlet. LT wasn't sure if he could take them by force. He feared with Warlock in possession of the Gauntlet, he feared Warlock was more powerful than even him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/war.gif

LT passing judgement, not taking the Gauntlet by force. He practically asked Warlock to give up the gems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/wt1.gif

Sorry, had to stick up for Warlock. Started reading his comics again.

Keep It Real

Believe In Sentry

What'd that have to do with my post?

Hmmm.. wasn't thinking their. Sorry longpig. Warlock with the IG I meant could possibly be more powerful than the Phoenix. Man, I'm going to get a lashing from Galacticstorm.

no prob.

IG is at LEAST = to the Phoenix.

LT doesn't ask for permission from nobody save TOAA.


OT: so you're gettin back into Adam warlock again? Tell me, is he back to full power again?

Not really because i know that its stated in comics that the phoenix force is second in power only to that of the creator. The phoenix isnt a being as such its a force. Its its avatars themselves and a consciousness which gives the phoenixes orders and regulates them. It is this that is suggested to be TOAA. If you want to say LT is the most powerful being in Marvel then fair enough but the phoenix force is more powerful. If it was a sentient independent being then it would be a different story.

Originally posted by long pig
no prob.

IG is at LEAST = to the Phoenix.





Nope. The force in power is second to nothing but the creator that is fact. You need to remember that it is not a sentient being. However Jean as Phoenix of The White Crown gets to draw on the totality of this force to carry out her duties so nope i disagree.

Phoenix is at least = LT

LT's bio says he has the power to destroy universes witha single force bolt. Jeand holds universes in her hands and recreates them and restructures their timelines.

Originally posted by long pig
no prob.

IG is at LEAST = to the Phoenix.

LT doesn't ask for permission from nobody save TOAA.


OT: so you're gettin back into Adam warlock again? Tell me, is he back to full power again?

He's like in the middle. In the Warlock mini series he has his soul gem again after he was dragged into that black hole thing that pulled him into the Ultraverse. He's looking on how to get rid of it. It sucks him dry kinda like Thor's belt of strength makes him tired quicker. Mid-level powers still powerful enough to kick Superman's a$$. LOL! I don't know why he wants to get rid of the soul gem. Man that thing can do a lot more than enter/exorcise souls.

I think the whole "hold the universe in her hand" thing was more like a metaphor of her power.
She didn't in reality hold the friggin universe in her hand, that'd just be bad writing.

Not bothering on the fight itself. But isnt the fact that LT intervened directly when Thanos and Warlock had the IG shows that IG is multiversal? Because last time I checked LT only acts when someone/something threatens the entire existence. Whatever happens in a universe doesnt concern him as long as that universe doesnt generate power great enough to threaten other universes.

The Living Tribunal refused to intervene in the IG affair at first. It wasn't until Eternity claimed that Adam Warlock was unfit that the LT became involved. Initially, the LT wasn't opposed to someone possessing all six gems. His ear was bent because the person wielding them was rumored to be emotionally and psychologically unfit to be the ultimate being of a reality. His appearance doesn't have anything to do with anything multiversal: Eternity wanted to remain at the top of the food chain, and the LT was the only other way of removing Warlock from power. General cosmic and mystical imbalances are usually left to Chaos and Order.

As far as the LT being afraid of Warlock...That wasn't the impression that I got. You didn't scan the page where the LT tells Adam what the result of a battle between them would be. He was treating Warlock as a being of ultimate power, not as a mortal who had obtained ultimate power. How often has the LT actually used his power? When he appears, he usually arbitrates or hands down judgment. He rarely smites. Dealing with Warlock shouldn't have been any different.

Yeah I left that part out. Eternity a regular enemy of Warlock's practically begged LT to pass judgement on Warlock, and take away the gems, or at least disperse them. I think Adam could have taken LT. But that would have thrown everything in the Marvel Universe up sh!t creek. Eternity did convince LT Warlock was emotionally and psychologically unfit to wield ultimate power. I also agree with you that Eternity wanted to remain at the top of the food chain. Warlock had already expelled all good and evil from his body, so I don't know why he couldn't hold on to the IG. He would have remained a neutral party similar to LT and act only when the balance is tipped. Well back to the subject, I think Warlock or Thanos with the IG is more powerful than the Phoenix Force.

Keep It Real

Believe In Sentry

Originally posted by Sentry
LT asked Warlock to give up the gauntlet. LT wasn't sure if he could take them by force. He feared with Warlock in possession of the Gauntlet, he feared Warlock was more powerful than even him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/war.gif

LT passing judgement, not taking the Gauntlet by force. He practically asked Warlock to give up the gems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/wt1.gif

Sorry, had to stick up for Warlock. Started reading his comics again.

Keep It Real

Believe In Sentry

LT was affraid anything, he could take down IG by force, IG wouldn't even faze LT, he was totally uneffected by IG power when it destroyed Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order.

Your probably right. Not easily though. With The IG he's more of match for the Phoenix force though.

I was under then assumption that the IG gave you control over everything? All of the abstracts lined up take shots at Thanos and failed.

Phoenix is just another cosmic type being - she's not God.

It doesn't matter whether she's a fundamental part of the Universe - a roof is a fundamental part of a house but you can still pull it down.

The Infinity Gauntlet is more powerful than any standalone character, bar God and LT/Spectre.

That was it's purpose in the comics - to BE that powerful.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian

The Infinity Gauntlet is more powerful than any standalone character, bar God and LT/Spectre.


Lucifer, Michael, Great Beast, PF, they are more powerful than IG, not only LT and Spectre. Now if we are talking about HOTU, that is more powerful than any character in comic Universe, except God.

HOTU=God.

Originally posted by long pig
HOTU=God.

In terms of power, yes (cause HOTU supposed to be limitless power, Marvel has stated that no being in MU is almighty, but HOTU is). Still TOAA=God is beyond HOTU.

I'm pretty sure THOTU is all powerful, nothing trumps it except the person in possesion of it.

Originally posted by long pig
I'm pretty sure THOTU is all powerful, nothing trumps it except the person in possesion of it.

HOTU suppeseldy is almighty.

So how then is TOAA>HOTU?

I was under the impression that HOTU is having all the power of TOAA.

Originally posted by long pig
So how then is TOAA>HOTU?

I was under the impression that HOTU is having all the power of TOAA.

Because TOAA is still TOAA, he is everything, he is above everything, he is above HOTU. The one with HOTU can do almost whatever he wants, TOAA can do whatever he wants. You know why I said almost, cause he can't do anything to TOAA, but TOAA would still blink HOTU out of existence. The one with HOTU can do whatever he wants (no limits, but only limits is that he can't go agaistn TOAA), but he can't attack TOAA, he can't do anything to TOAA, while TOAA can do to him. HOTU has limitless power, can do whatever he want, he can make LT his slafve, he can turn LT into human, into rubber, but can't do anyhitng to TOAA, so TOAA is above HOTU, he is above everyhitng, no matter what, he can stop everything, no matter what, while no one can go against TOAA.

"Phoenix is just another cosmic type being - she's not God"

Please understand this Zephro. Phoenix created the MULTIVERSE AND THE ABSTRACTS. It is not just another cosmic being thats far from the case. The IG allowed Thanos to punk eternity and become the ultimate force in the universe. The phoenixes exist beyond the multiverse where the universes are just small spheres of energy which the phoenixes can and have shaped and manipulated to their will. The greatest feats of an avatar are far beyond the greatest feat Thanos did with the IG. That is not debatable. Its in the comics i dont know why i bother to keep responding. What is so hard to understand?

The phoenix created the multiverse which LT watches over. Its power as a force is stated to be second only to the TOAA. That is not debatable.

Trouble is Phoenix is a force if it were a being unto itself then it would be the top dog to be taken out by the new cosmic of the month.

As it stands jean as phoenix of the white crown has access to the totality of the force as she is top of the hierarchy. The IG is not beating her. IG gives you absolute mastery over a universe. BIG DEAL. Phoenix holds universes in her hands and casually decides its fate all from the comfort of her penthouse suite within the white hot room.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Phoenix is just another cosmic type being - she's not God"

Please understand this Zephro. Phoenix created the MULTIVERSE AND THE ABSTRACTS. It is not just another cosmic being thats far from the case. The IG allowed Thanos to punk eternity and become the ultimate force in the universe. The phoenixes exist beyond the multiverse where the universes are just small spheres of energy which the phoenixes can and have shaped and manipulated to their will. The greatest feats of an avatar are far beyond the greatest feat Thanos did with the IG. That is not debatable. Its in the comics i dont know why i bother to keep responding. What is so hard to understand?

The phoenix created the multiverse which LT watches over. Its power as a force is stated to be second only to the TOAA. That is not debatable.

Trouble is Phoenix is a force if it were a being unto itself then it would be the top dog to be taken out by the new cosmic of the month.

As it stands jean as phoenix of the white crown has access to the totality of the force as she is top of the hierarchy. The IG is not beating her. IG gives you absolute mastery over a universe. BIG DEAL. Phoenix holds universes in her hands and casually decides its fate all from the comfort of her penthouse suite within the white hot room.

here let me show you.

you are saying Phoenix Force = TOAA

Phoenix Force had to follow LT will to save her universe. (not a fraction the entire force)

as for Death and others are also seen to have multiversal effect.

LT hoding the Phoenix Force like how an avatar was holding the universe

Eternity holding many universes.

Thanos with HOTU = God powers

says LT is the highest in the Food chain (not Phoenix Force)

death talk to P outside the universe (at a multiversal scale)

also when beyonder killed her it had an Multiversal effect.

Everyone likes scans!
good lookin out Kgkg, that's why you're the man.

Originally posted by long pig
Everyone likes scans!
good lookin out Kgkg, that's why you're the man.
thx

here is another showing death is multiversal

"says LT is the highest in the Food chain (not Phoenix Force)"

Because LT is the highest in the food chain. The Phoenix force doesnt exist as a being unto itself. It is the primal force of creation which those born with the right genetic potential tap into. It is not a being that Thanos could vanquish. The avatars themselves can see the outcomes of events from the white hot room and it is from seeing this that the Voice decideds when to send the avatars down below to carry out its work. In the End Thanos gave up his power. There was no need for intervention. Without Jeans intervention in the M'kraan crystal situation the multiverse would have ceased to exist.


"Eternity holding many universes."

Youve misunderstood your own proof. If you actually read the scan and its captions it says that eternity is time incarnate. He is not literally holding universes he is showing Strange many universese from past and present. Jean literally held the univers in her hand and then directly affected it. Im sorry but as i suspected this is clearly a visualisation.


"here is another showing death is multiversal"

Ok cool deaths multiversal but it doesnt exist outside of the multiverse it runs through it. Phoenix is beyond deaths power, death is dependent on the phoenix. The phoenixes exist outside of the multiverse only entering our plane of reality when their work is needed.

IG punked deaths form in the 616 universe not death as a whole. Death takes on many forms in different universes but as you have shown there is only one death entity. Ig just dealt with death in 616 theres absolutely no evidence whatsoever that death as a whole was defeated only its incarnation in 616. Unlike when the beyonder handled death where the multiversal effects were clearly stated. There are many phoenixes(avatars) throughout the universe however there is only one multiversal force behind them. Shards of the phoenix have been defeated by Set and the goblin force in alternate realities but either entity would be childs play for one who commands the totality of the force's multiversal power. In that respect death and phoenix are alike it seems. Both have forms in different universes however both are single multiversal things Phoenix embodies both life and death it creates the multiverse and destroys it. Without the phoenix there would be no death because phoenix is life.

"you are saying Phoenix Force = TOAA "

Not once in this thread have i said that phoenix IS TOAA. I said that it is heavily suggested to be the case by Chris C and Grant M. However i then went on to state what is definitely the case as is stated in the comics.

"Phoenix Force had to follow LT will to save her universe. (not a fraction the entire force)"

What you forget KG is that the phoenix was retconned. This scan is of the retcon era but fortunately such foolishness is now a thing of the past. The phoenix was never a being that acted independently like this as was originally intended by Chris C. Phoenix wasnt a separate force at all. Phoenix actually came into being when the primal force of creation became one with Jean after she burnt up and became a being of pure thought. She then reformed and called herself phoenix because of her rebirth.

Phoenix was basically downgraded into "just another cosmic being" as Zephro put it earlier. It was made a separate force called Phoenix itself and given a different origin and was made to be simply an entity composed of the energy from the psyches of all living things as opposed to phoenix being a union of Jean and the primal force of creation. It was this entity that LT commanded. Chris C's Phoenix would never have done this.

Grant Morrison went on to fix this mess by making it so that certain individuals are born with the genetic potential to tap into the primal force of creation becoming a phoenix. The name merely representative of their rebirth into a higher state and not the name of a separate force.

These phoenixes all exist in the white hot room. The phoenix was made to be the avatars themselves and a higher consciousness which regulates them in the white hot room outside or the multiverse. It was this that was suggested to be TOAA.

In Chris C's original phoenix story and in GM's which is now continuity Jean is referred to as the Phoenix of the White Crown.

Go to this link and look under the title "The Hebrew Triad":

http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm

The crown is one of the sephiroth. The sephiroth are one of ten attributes that God created to project himself into the Universe of Man.

Check out this link for confirmation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephirah

Do you see the connection now. Jean burnt up in re entry and became a being of thought. The primal force of creation joined with her making her phoenix. Jean is called the phoenix of the white crown. The crown is one of the sephiroth which God uses to enter our plane of existence.

The other phoenix avatars are likened to seraphim. The definition of seraphim is:

"Definitions of Seraphim on the Web:

mentioned in Isa. 6:2, 3, 6, 7. This word means fiery ones, in allusion, as is supposed, to their burning love. They are represented as "standing" above the King as he sat upon his throne, ready at once to minister unto him. Their form appears to have been human, with the addition of wings. (See ANGELS.) This word, in the original, is used elsewhere only of the "fiery serpents" (Num. 21:6, 8; Deut. 8:15; comp. Isa. 14:29; 30:6) sent by God as his instruments to inflict on the people the righteous penalty of sin."

You cannot fail to see the connection. The seraphim are called the "fiery ones". What are the phoenixes in Marvel comics if not fiery both in appearance (the energy signature) and in passion. The phoenixes do after all embody the passion to create and destroy. Also the seraphim are depicted to be fiery humans with wings. NUFF SAID!!!!

Grant Morrisons Phoenixes on order of the Voice are sent down into our reality to perform a healing or a disinfection. The Seraphim were the King(Gods) highest order of angels which attended him and he sent down from heaven to burn away what was not right in the world of man. Much like the Phoenixes disinfection duties eh? Jean in New Xmen when Prof X addresses her as Phoenix says that she must perform her destined disinfection. It is her job to burn away what doesnt work.


This is the phoenix of continuity. This is supported by endsong which states that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. Greg Pak also states that endsong fully supports both CC and Gm's takes on the phoenix. Heres another link where he states this:

http://www.newsarama.com/Qrama/Qrama7.htm

Im sorry guys but this is continuity.

PHOENIX RULES!!!!!!!!!

I AM FIRE AND LIFE INCARNATE

NOW AND FORVER I AM PHOOOOOEEEEEENNNIIXXXX!!!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix force doesnt exist as a being unto itself. It is the primal force of creation which those born with the right genetic potential tap into. It is not a being that Thanos could vanquish. I suppose you have some sort of proof to back that up with, right? As the supreme ruler of the universe, I doubt there was little he couldn't do.

The avatars themselves can see the outcomes of events from the white hot room and it is from seeing this that the Voice decideds when to send the avatars down below to carry out its work. In the End Thanos gave up his power. There was no need for intervention.

A whole lot of speculation on your part, methinks.

Without Jeans intervention in the M'kraan crystal situation the multiverse would have ceased to exist.

So the M'Kraan Crytal would destroy even LT?

Not once in this thread have i said that phoenix IS TOAA. I said that it is heavily suggested to be the case by Chris C and Grant M. However i then went on to state what is definitely the case as is stated in the comics.

I'd rather follow the statements and suggestions of a more credible writer like Jim Starlin, over an X-Fellator like Chris C any day of the week. The guy makes me sick.

more credible writer? His recent work leaves me cold, but Chris Claremont is THE credible writer when it comes to X-men.

"I suppose you have some sort of proof to back that up with, right? As the supreme ruler of the universe, I doubt there was little he couldn't do."

In current continuity phoenix is the primal force of creation second only to TOAA. It is a power source the avatars tap into. It is the avatars what are the phoenixes. Called so because of the death of their old selves in order to become higher beings. Thanos can hardly fight an energy source can he?


"So the M'Kraan Crytal would destroy even LT?"

Nope because LT exists beyond the multiverse he surveys it.


"I'd rather follow the statements and suggestions of a more credible writer like Jim Starlin, over an X-Fellator like Chris C any day of the week. The guy makes me sick. "

Whether you like his work or not is of no significance. He came up with the original idea behind phoenix and that idea is now continuity. Deal with it.

"A whole lot of speculation on your part, methinks."

Either way the phoenixes are sent down to our plane of reality by 'the voice'. Their heavy likening to seraphim suggests very much so that this Voice is TOAA

As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars).


you mean she is omniversal --- only god is omniversal (and the brothers)

Beyond the multiverse just mean beyond all the universes , realms , dimentions ----- death is beyond that.



actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality.





that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies).

as in SSII Death , Eternity , Choas , order etc were seem stongest in the multiverse.

Lt judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death

and endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well





This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties

"
As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars)."

Understand this. The phoenix is merely the union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic Phoenix potential. It is not a being unto itself. Merely the force that courses through and created the multiverse and all abstracts within each of the universes. That is not debatable that is FACT in Marvel. It is current continuity. Just pick up the last few Issues off FF which confirm this. From what youre saying HOTU is a force that runs throughout the multiverse and made Thanos one with it. That sounds very much like the primal force of creation which turns beings into a phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised if we later find out that the energy field Thanos tapped into is the same thing.

As it stands in this thread my argument wasnt revolving around phoenix being more powerful than LT. However you keep on mentioninh LT and HOTU even though they arent really gritical to this topic. As it stands howeverThe original Phoenix the union of Jean Grey and creation ( heavily suggested as aforementioned to be TOAA) was more powerful than LT. It said it in the comics. The force that joined with Jean making her phoenix was second only to TOAA itself. Greater than LT. That was the original intention. One that has been more or less returned to. That is again FACT.

In 86 the phoenix was retconned. It became "just another cosmic being" and was downgraded in status and it seems power as well. Its relationship connection to its avatars was changed to as were its origins.

Despite this some writers gave it some credit even during the retcon period. Rachel the weaker avatar was of course know match for theh beyonder when she faced him. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use it and Rachel didnt fully unleash her power till long after beyonder in her battle with Necrom. Beyonder handled Rachel basically. However when he got an insight into the force behind Rachels power. The beyonder who humbled the LT and all beings in the multiverse was humbled himself and he dropped to his knees. That quite understandably can lead you to believe that Jean as Phoenix of the white crown could have punked the beyonder.

As it is. The phoenixes have returned to their original status and have the same relationship with the force. They are seraphim-like and jean as the White Crown phoenix top of the hierarchy, the white crown being a sephiroth which is a means for God to channel himself into the world of man as per the original idea behind phoenix, is again it seems second only to the creator itself. LT is said to destroy universes with a single force blast in order to maintain cosmic balance. Jean holds universes in her hands and remoulds them in terns of both time and space.

"actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality."

No it doesnt. Im afraid. Eternity as it states is showing strange from within his hands universes from past and present. He is not literally holding universes in his hands as jean did so recently. It is just a visualisation. That is clearly the case lets just move on. Either way the primal force of creation created existence and all of the abstracts in all of the alternate universes. Jean is one with this primal force of creation making her a phoenix. The top phoenix. Its in the comics ive already listed the references countless times.


"that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies)."


Incorrect. Death IS NOT. In charge of al life. Phoenix is all life death holds no power or influence over the being that brought it into existence. Dont argue with me. Its in the comics. Death has power over most forms of life in that they must eventually die. Including the likes of Galactus and Eternity. She/it is not in charge of all life.

" judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death "

No. There are many versions of these concepts throughout the multiverse. With the exception of death it seems none of these are one single entity within the multiverse. Just because they are shown to be aware of events occurring in the multiverse does NOT signify that they are multiversal.


"endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well"

NOT the case at all im afraid. It seems you didnt quite take in the story. That was not a separate entity KG it was one of the missing shards of jean that she needs to make herself whole again. It wasnt a separate phoenix force all in itself just a fragment of jean and her power. The shiars intervention prevented all the shards of jean from regrouping in the white hot room. The shards of jeans phoenix consciousness scattered across the universe and one ended up on earth. This explains its deranged state. Instead of jean being reborn into a new body the deranged shard of her phoenix consciousness resurreted her old one. Come on KG why do you think that this thing you presumed to be the separate phoenix force was so weak? It was merely a fragment of jeans phoenix consciouness. NOT the phoenix force made separate again by a stupid writer. LOL.

"This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties"

Ive already countered this above KG. What you thought was a separate phoenix force gone mad was in fact just a shard of jeans phoenix self which was interrupted on its way to the white hot room to join with jean making her complete again. Ive already told you and shown you that Greg Pak completely supports GM and Chris C. Why would he then ignore their good work and make the phoenix force a separate cosmic entity, lowering its power and status again?

So unlike what you thought endsong wasnt changing what GM made continuity again. Nothing of the sort KG. FF at the same time went to state that this primal force of creation created all the multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity. Pick em up KG and find out for yourself.

This primal force of creation is stated to be second only to TOAA. This force joined with Jean making her Phoenix of the White Crown. The being that would serve as a vessel for Gods essence to enter the world of man.

Above Eternity? Of course she create him and his millions of counterparts in her spare time.

Above IG? Without a doubt

Above LT? Its stated in the comics from her first appearance. Supported in Secret Wars 2 and now theres been a reversion to the old way its certainly the case once again.

Kgkg, could you tell me where those scans come from?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"
As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars)."

Understand this. The phoenix is merely the union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic Phoenix potential. It is not a being unto itself. Merely the force that courses through and created the multiverse and all abstracts within each of the universes. That is not debatable that is FACT in Marvel. It is current continuity. Just pick up the last few Issues off FF which confirm this. From what youre saying HOTU is a force that runs throughout the multiverse and made Thanos one with it. That sounds very much like the primal force of creation which turns beings into a phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised if we later find out that the energy field Thanos tapped into is the same thing.

As it stands in this thread my argument wasnt revolving around phoenix being more powerful than LT. However you keep on mentioninh LT and HOTU even though they arent really gritical to this topic. As it stands howeverThe original Phoenix the union of Jean Grey and creation ( heavily suggested as aforementioned to be TOAA) was more powerful than LT. It said it in the comics. The force that joined with Jean making her phoenix was second only to TOAA itself. Greater than LT. That was the original intention. One that has been more or less returned to. That is again FACT.

In 86 the phoenix was retconned. It became "just another cosmic being" and was downgraded in status and it seems power as well. Its relationship connection to its avatars was changed to as were its origins.

Despite this some writers gave it some credit even during the retcon period. Rachel the weaker avatar was of course know match for theh beyonder when she faced him. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use it and Rachel didnt fully unleash her power till long after beyonder in her battle with Necrom. Beyonder handled Rachel basically. However when he got an insight into the force behind Rachels power. The beyonder who humbled the LT and all beings in the multiverse was humbled himself and he dropped to his knees. That quite understandably can lead you to believe that Jean as Phoenix of the white crown could have punked the beyonder.

As it is. The phoenixes have returned to their original status and have the same relationship with the force. They are seraphim-like and jean as the White Crown phoenix top of the hierarchy, the white crown being a sephiroth which is a means for God to channel himself into the world of man as per the original idea behind phoenix, is again it seems second only to the creator itself. LT is said to destroy universes with a single force blast in order to maintain cosmic balance. Jean holds universes in her hands and remoulds them in terns of both time and space.

"actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality."

No it doesnt. Im afraid. Eternity as it states is showing strange from within his hands universes from past and present. He is not literally holding universes in his hands as jean did so recently. It is just a visualisation. That is clearly the case lets just move on. Either way the primal force of creation created existence and all of the abstracts in all of the alternate universes. Jean is one with this primal force of creation making her a phoenix. The top phoenix. Its in the comics ive already listed the references countless times.


"that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies)."


Incorrect. Death IS NOT. In charge of al life. Phoenix is all life death holds no power or influence over the being that brought it into existence. Dont argue with me. Its in the comics. Death has power over most forms of life in that they must eventually die. Including the likes of Galactus and Eternity. She/it is not in charge of all life.

" judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death "

No. There are many versions of these concepts throughout the multiverse. With the exception of death it seems none of these are one single entity within the multiverse. Just because they are shown to be aware of events occurring in the multiverse does NOT signify that they are multiversal.


"endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well"

NOT the case at all im afraid. It seems you didnt quite take in the story. That was not a separate entity KG it was one of the missing shards of jean that she needs to make herself whole again. It wasnt a separate phoenix force all in itself just a fragment of jean and her power. The shiars intervention prevented all the shards of jean from regrouping in the white hot room. The shards of jeans phoenix consciousness scattered across the universe and one ended up on earth. This explains its deranged state. Instead of jean being reborn into a new body the deranged shard of her phoenix consciousness resurreted her old one. Come on KG why do you think that this thing you presumed to be the separate phoenix force was so weak? It was merely a fragment of jeans phoenix consciouness. NOT the phoenix force made separate again by a stupid writer. LOL.

"This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties"

Ive already countered this above KG. What you thought was a separate phoenix force gone mad was in fact just a shard of jeans phoenix self which was interrupted on its way to the white hot room to join with jean making her complete again. Ive already told you and shown you that Greg Pak completely supports GM and Chris C. Why would he then ignore their good work and make the phoenix force a separate cosmic entity, lowering its power and status again?

So unlike what you thought endsong wasnt changing what GM made continuity again. Nothing of the sort KG. FF at the same time went to state that this primal force of creation created all the multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity. Pick em up KG and find out for yourself.

This primal force of creation is stated to be second only to TOAA. This force joined with Jean making her Phoenix of the White Crown. The being that would serve as a vessel for Gods essence to enter the world of man.

Above Eternity? Of course she create him and his millions of counterparts in her spare time.

Above IG? Without a doubt

Above LT? Its stated in the comics from her first appearance. Supported in Secret Wars 2 and now theres been a reversion to the old way its certainly the case once again.

Well, you surelly have will to type.

The M'Krann Crystal is just a big gravity box. It keeps the bajillion Neutron Stars inside it from sucking the rest of the Universe into a big Black Hole. Granted, that's a lot of power, but we're still just talking about some sort of spacewarp matrix. The right someone wielding the Space Gem couldn've done this too.

Something that hasn't been touched on, is that like the Pheonix Force, the effectiveness of the Gems are dependant on the wielder. Nebula was incompetant. Even Thanos was not really up to the task. He niether stopped nor even percieved Warlock plotting from within the Soul Gem, nor when he used the Soul Gem while it was on Thanos's hand to ressurect himself, Gamora, and Pip.

Thanos actually had to fight the Abstracts with the IG. Warlock brushed them out of the way like flies as he and the LT powered up for their facedown.

Just the same, matchups like this are much like asking "Which has more points on its surface, a sphere or a cube?"

A few comments:

-The Phoenix Force is multiversal.This was even stated during the retcon years in Excalibur,when Merlin used part of the Force to seed the Excalibur Lighthouse in every reality and create Otherworld and later the Captain Britain Corps.


-The IG,sadly,gives power only over a single Universe.This is remarkably stupid (because if you have absolute control over time you should control various timelines) but was stated very early on.In an issue of Quasar we saw an alternate reality in which Thanos with the IG was stalemated by Maelstrom (which in Cosmos in Collision,a dismal storyline imho,was trying to collapse the Universe in a giant black hole and so he became an avatar of Oblivion).


-To Lord S:I like very much Starlins Captain Marvel and Warlock seventies stuff,and I think Thanos Quest is better than the Infinity Gauntlet,but both are decent.Everything after is just embarassing.


-As Galactic Storm said,Endsong threatened to revert to the old Phoenix Force/Entity,but the twist at the end confirms Morrison interpretation.All manifestations of the phoenix in the normal universes are created by the avatar.This naturally stands also for the firebird in KgKg post (from an old what if in which the x-men lost Inferno) which is an analog of the phoenix shard created by Jean in our reality that later passed on to Madelyne,Rachel,etc.
It is natural that the Phoenix manifestation must go away.When its task is ended it must return to the White Hot Room.



-The M'Krann Crystal is a nexus which is linked to every reality in existence,not just alternate universes but every known dimension in the matter and anti-matter universes.During the Age of Apocalypse it was said that if it opens in just one reality it would consume "everything,everywhere,everywhen". When it first appeared in x-men 107-108,the blinks from the Crystal effectively "suspended" the Universe,instantly and in every direction.Billion years away from the M'Krann Planet Corbeau from the Starcore and Reed Richards realized that for a fraction of a second the nuclear and gravimetric forces that tie matter together were suspended and the whole universe ceased to exist.In adventures of x-men 14 (adapted from the cartoons) we see Living Tribunal holding the brothers (from Amalgam) in his hands,and talk with some "spectral hooded ally" (the Spectre).When D'Spayre succeeds in opening the Crystal and destroying everything the Brothers are released and take their place as embodiment of the Marvelverse and Dcverse.The implication is that the Crystal rebooted both.
While this is not real continuity,it shows very well how the MKC was intended (among other things) as a practical reset button for the universe/multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"
As you said Phoenix it's just a force ( she cannot fight) ---- you said this

Thanos with HOTU ------ = God's power he was all , he was the Phoenix force. LT is higher than the Phoenix force (or any avatars)."

Understand this. The phoenix is merely the union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic Phoenix potential. It is not a being unto itself. Merely the force that courses through and created the multiverse and all abstracts within each of the universes. That is not debatable that is FACT in Marvel. It is current continuity. Just pick up the last few Issues off FF which confirm this. From what youre saying HOTU is a force that runs throughout the multiverse and made Thanos one with it. That sounds very much like the primal force of creation which turns beings into a phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised if we later find out that the energy field Thanos tapped into is the same thing.

As it stands in this thread my argument wasnt revolving around phoenix being more powerful than LT. However you keep on mentioninh LT and HOTU even though they arent really gritical to this topic. As it stands howeverThe original Phoenix the union of Jean Grey and creation ( heavily suggested as aforementioned to be TOAA) was more powerful than LT. It said it in the comics. The force that joined with Jean making her phoenix was second only to TOAA itself. Greater than LT. That was the original intention. One that has been more or less returned to. That is again FACT.

In 86 the phoenix was retconned. It became "just another cosmic being" and was downgraded in status and it seems power as well. Its relationship connection to its avatars was changed to as were its origins.

Despite this some writers gave it some credit even during the retcon period. Rachel the weaker avatar was of course know match for theh beyonder when she faced him. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use it and Rachel didnt fully unleash her power till long after beyonder in her battle with Necrom. Beyonder handled Rachel basically. However when he got an insight into the force behind Rachels power. The beyonder who humbled the LT and all beings in the multiverse was humbled himself and he dropped to his knees. That quite understandably can lead you to believe that Jean as Phoenix of the white crown could have punked the beyonder.

As it is. The phoenixes have returned to their original status and have the same relationship with the force. They are seraphim-like and jean as the White Crown phoenix top of the hierarchy, the white crown being a sephiroth which is a means for God to channel himself into the world of man as per the original idea behind phoenix, is again it seems second only to the creator itself. LT is said to destroy universes with a single force blast in order to maintain cosmic balance. Jean holds universes in her hands and remoulds them in terns of both time and space.

"actually it shows that Eternity is not just one universe , but many universes , from different time , reality."

No it doesnt. Im afraid. Eternity as it states is showing strange from within his hands universes from past and present. He is not literally holding universes in his hands as jean did so recently. It is just a visualisation. That is clearly the case lets just move on. Either way the primal force of creation created existence and all of the abstracts in all of the alternate universes. Jean is one with this primal force of creation making her a phoenix. The top phoenix. Its in the comics ive already listed the references countless times.


"that's just a guess , you don't know that , but from what it seem marvel just has one death that is in charge of all life(people that dies)."


Incorrect. Death IS NOT. In charge of al life. Phoenix is all life death holds no power or influence over the being that brought it into existence. Dont argue with me. Its in the comics. Death has power over most forms of life in that they must eventually die. Including the likes of Galactus and Eternity. She/it is not in charge of all life.

" judges over all enties --------- most concepts are multiverse choas , order , death "

No. There are many versions of these concepts throughout the multiverse. With the exception of death it seems none of these are one single entity within the multiverse. Just because they are shown to be aware of events occurring in the multiverse does NOT signify that they are multiversal.


"endsong guess what Phoenix Force = entity as well"

NOT the case at all im afraid. It seems you didnt quite take in the story. That was not a separate entity KG it was one of the missing shards of jean that she needs to make herself whole again. It wasnt a separate phoenix force all in itself just a fragment of jean and her power. The shiars intervention prevented all the shards of jean from regrouping in the white hot room. The shards of jeans phoenix consciousness scattered across the universe and one ended up on earth. This explains its deranged state. Instead of jean being reborn into a new body the deranged shard of her phoenix consciousness resurreted her old one. Come on KG why do you think that this thing you presumed to be the separate phoenix force was so weak? It was merely a fragment of jeans phoenix consciouness. NOT the phoenix force made separate again by a stupid writer. LOL.

"This is when Phoenix when Phoenix was the primal creation.

It's not so much of a retcon , but writters way of saying stuff.

like i said reton?

just look at endsong Phoenix Force ---- is just a powerful beings --- like death not a force.

another reton?----------- i don't think it's recton i can find so many scans that say Pho is just an entity , but i can also find you many other that says she is force of creation , it's not recton , it's the writter way of writting.

anyway the Pho that had to follow Lt's will was primal force(strange had to bring the whole force ) to save the universe.

because as you know LT doesn't give a damn about one Universe.

from my reading i whould put her above Eternity , and abstract , but Lower than LT , or IG

here is a scan of Phoenix Force ------that says she is a powerful entity

this is new phoenix as you know

Lt= power over all enties"

Ive already countered this above KG. What you thought was a separate phoenix force gone mad was in fact just a shard of jeans phoenix self which was interrupted on its way to the white hot room to join with jean making her complete again. Ive already told you and shown you that Greg Pak completely supports GM and Chris C. Why would he then ignore their good work and make the phoenix force a separate cosmic entity, lowering its power and status again?

So unlike what you thought endsong wasnt changing what GM made continuity again. Nothing of the sort KG. FF at the same time went to state that this primal force of creation created all the multiverse and the abstracts such as eternity. Pick em up KG and find out for yourself.

This primal force of creation is stated to be second only to TOAA. This force joined with Jean making her Phoenix of the White Crown. The being that would serve as a vessel for Gods essence to enter the world of man.

Above Eternity? Of course she create him and his millions of counterparts in her spare time.

Above IG? Without a doubt

Above LT? Its stated in the comics from her first appearance. Supported in Secret Wars 2 and now theres been a reversion to the old way its certainly the case once again.
Endsong was talking about the Phoenix Force not avatars.

Am not even talking about the comic,the force is seen as a ent( intro). (It’s not a opinion
Read the scan)

There is only one Phoenix force, and not only that many times it has said to be entity.

Primal Force of creation had to obey LT, it was not recon

Most of these Phoenix are only in X-men, when every there has been multivariable universal crisis she is left out.

So it is very hard to gauge the power / compare to an avatar.

- Galactus said the phoenix draws from NEAR limitless power (pho force).
- Phoenix Force ( entire force) had to obey LT’s will
- You were saying Phoenix Force > just because she was multiversal or operates at that level.

As for what am saying am looking at marvel comics at a whole Strange , X-men , Silver Surfer , IG , I war , SS.

I see am not convincing you. lol I was trying to.

Am just showing people scan they can make there own judgment.

Yes phoenix has been said to be great things, life of creation etc. But I would put her below IG.

I though it was = Galactus --- after all my Phoenix readings here is how I would rank

1) TAOO
2) HOTU
3) The Brothers
4) Pre-Beyonder
5) LT
6) IG
7) Phoenix Force
8) High level entities like Eternity / Death / chaos /oblivion etc. ( I have shown many act in a multiversal level)

Marvel seems to ignore it when it comes to the marvel universe as a whole in the cosmic image.

Am out

"I am fire and life incarnate!!"

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
"I am fire and life incarnate!!"
damn i wasted over 20 bucks on X-men comics damn you Galactic

But dont u feel more enlightened now. I remember the days i had to argue with you over a galactus/ phoenix match up. You're made a lot of progress you're nearly there son Im proud of u.

The Gems DO affect other dimensions. They worked in Count Abyss/Darklore's realm. They worked in Asgaurd. They worked in the bizarre place Thanos got knocked in Infinity Crusade. The Stranger used one in Squadron Supreme's alt-Earth (I will not speak of the Ultraverse). Pip has dimension travelled with the Space Gem

Part of the problem we're seing here is that the Cosmology being put forth in the ever-escalating Phoenix backstory just doesn't fit with the cosmology that was put fourth in ThanosQuest and so forth.

If you pic one story to be true, the other's being must be lesser. This is just another symptom of the historical disconnect between Marvel's various editorial desks. Sometimes it seems like they're living in different worlds altogether.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
The Gems DO affect other dimensions. They worked in Count Abyss/Darklore's realm. They worked in Asgaurd. They worked in the bizarre place Thanos got knocked in Infinity Crusade. The Stranger used one in Squadron Supreme's alt-Earth (I will not speak of the Ultraverse). Pip has dimension travelled with the Space Gem

Part of the problem we're seing here is that the Cosmology being put forth in the ever-escalating Phoenix backstory just doesn't fit with the cosmology that was put fourth in ThanosQuest and so forth.

If you pic one story to be true, the other's being must be lesser. This is just another symptom of the historical disconnect between Marvel's various editorial desks. Sometimes it seems like they're living in different worlds altogether.

I agree with this a great deal. And it's not just cosmic vs earth, etc. It occurs even within titles. It drives me freaking batty. I don't mind there being some changes to a character or an idea, but come on.

I don't really think that there has to be a disconnect between the Thanos stories and the PF appearances...I think that if the PF were a true player in those great cosmic stories, there really wouldn't be one. The Phoenix is the sum and substance of ALL that lives. That would include the cosmics as well. Nothing would be able to stand against that power.

As far as Phoenix vs IG...There isn't really anything the IG can do that would affect Phoenix, especially since the aspects of existence that the gems allow the possesor to manipulate were created by Phoenix.

Kgkg, can we get issue numbers for your scans, please?

-Yes,the IG can act on many dimensions,but seemingly only inside the same space-time continuum (timeline).There are 2 Infinity Gauntlets What If and the alternate reality seen in Quasar.
By the way,was the origin of the gems/the Infinity Being retconned?
I only skipped through later stuff.

-Very few writers acknowledge the work of their colleagues.
Claremont generally does it,and even when he retcons he does it expanding on previous stories.Starlin or Byrne often ignore the work of other writers altogether.
To add to the confusion,in Man-Thing there was yet another diverging story of the creation of the Universe/Multiverse,and in the Hellstorm series we've seen true "angels" and a Heaven.


-I agree with cosmic flame however that there is not really a contradiction,and the various mythologies can be reconciled.The PF is very similar to the the Source of the New Gods or the Force of Star Wars:a force which encompasses all of creation and connects every living thing.The New Gods are said indifferently to have been created from the energies of the destruction of Urgrund (the Home of the Old Gods) or from the Source.Both are equally true,because Urgrund was the first world originated from the Source.


-To Kgkg:again the intro to Endsong was meant to be misleading.For 4/5 of the mini the Phoenix is seen as a cosmic entity,but in the end is revealed to be just a stray part of Jean,and even the X-men realize that they are one and the same.So there is no "entity".Endsong very much confirms that all phoenix manifestations derive from Jean (Jean:"I know you're confused,but afterwards,in the White Hot Room,when all our pieces are back together,you'll understand...we'll understand" Phoenix:"Because you and I are one" Jean "yes."Claremont made Death say in classic x-men 43 that the phoenix is not a being or an entity,but a force,and all the gold woman and fiery raptor stuff were basically a product of Jean schizophrenia,just a way for her to handle the power.For years this could not be openly addressed because it would have meant that Jean was indeed responsible for the D'Bari genocide.Her acceptation of the name phoenix was a step towards accepting the truth,which Morrison reestablished making her fully phoenix again.
Even if there are some comics which describe the PF as an entity now they have been retconned,just as the Beyonder killing Death (because as of now the Beyonder was just an half cosmic cube) and all phoenixes seen elsewhere are nicely explained as pieces of the original created when the mind of Jean came in touch with the force of creation ("I was split in a trillion pieces around three galaxies".


-The issue with LT and Phoenix was what if II series 6 What if the X-men had lost Inferno

And there you have it people.

The original phoenix, the one Morrison ensured there was a reversion to, the one Greg Pak fully supported wit endsong is the primal force of creation whose power is second only to TOAA. Jean as phoenix of the crown is a sephiroth(the definition of the white crown) which means she is a vessel for the essence of god to enter the world of man.

The phoenixes are all seraphim which means fiery ones, the ones who are sent by God from the heavens into the world of man to burn away the wrongdoings of man and cleanse the world. Seraphim are depicted traditionally as fiery humans with wings.

The phoenix avatars exist beyond existence in the white hot room. From here they are sent by 'The Voice' into our plane of existence to perform their 'destined disinfection' as said by Jean in New Xmen. The phoenixes heal what needs to be healed and burn away what doesnt work. The phoenix energy signature is that of a fiery bird which emanates from the human avatar. NUFF SAID.

The phoenix stories have all been saturated with this symbology it was right in front of your eyes all the time. Some of you just took the comics at face value and never looked into the hidden depths.

As it stands Jean is one with the primal force of creation which is only below TOAA. This force created the multiverse and while it exists beyond it its essence still courses through it. The phoenixes descend upon existence down below to perform their healing duties from within as only they could.

LT was appointed by TOAA to act as a judge for the multiverse. The primal force of creation made that multiverse, IS that multiverse. Phoenix of the white crown has already been stated to be more powerful than LT originally. Grant Morrison has reinstated those ideas and has made them continuity once again. Greg Pak supported this. It seems other writers forother comics have to if recent issues of FF are anything to go by. It also states that this force created eternity and the other abstracts.

Back on topic anyway. Phoenix of the white crown is clearly way beyond the Infinity Gauntlet. That artifact gives ultimate control over an actuality. An aspect of time space. Jean is one with the multiverse, the force behind her power created it.

not really you have to undersand what is Space-time.

Space-time is eternity. Marvel Multiverse is composed of all the different Universes/reality (which is Eternity) from different time same entity. IG owned most of the powerful beings in Marvel.

Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order etc. --- no one in was a challenge to it (Phoenix force / Phoenix entities were no were to be scene)

IG has a multiversal effect just because it was able to defeat these entities. Most have there own realm and domain which is part of the multiverse not universe. Universe is just space/time (eternity) outside realms, Dimensions are part of the Marvel Multiverse.

There were two Phoenix force too, what’s you point?

There is Phoenix Force in what if, in different reality, and in our Reality. Doesn’t mean much, what matter it’s who it defeated.

This is a fight and in a fight IG has defeated all except LT.

LT > Phoenix Force


Every peace of work can be used as evidence.
- So far Phoenix force has been said to have limits (NEAR infinite power)
- So Far Phoenix had to obey LT, LT > phonix Force
- Phoenix has battle Galactus , and had to tap into life unborn
- Phoenix force as been said to be agents of Eternity/Death
- Phoenix force has been said to be a force which cannot Act
- Phoenix force/ Or avatars were not in IG , HOTU clearly LT is the highest force in marvel. Beside god.
- Death has called Phoenix force her Child
-LT - was holding the Phoenix Force like a Child
- Phoenix Force or part of it has been absorbed or trapped by lesser beings

If it was the creator of everything this wouldn’t happened but it did.



Primal Force had to obey LT

until I see Phoenix force actually beating something like IG am not convinced.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"not really you have to undersand what is Space-time.

Space-time is eternity. Marvel Multiverse is composed of all the different Universes/reality (which is Eternity) from different time same entity. IG owned most of the powerful beings in Marvel."

Eternity isnt multiversal he is just the living embodiment of a universe. Of one actuality. Our universes slither of space/time. Eternity does not encompass the time space continuum. Each universe has its own eternity. Just like each one has its own Galactus. Its in the comics. Its common knowledge. This doesnt need to be debated on.


"Eternity, Death, Chaos, Order etc. --- no one in was a challenge to it (Phoenix force / Phoenix entities were no were to be scene)"

Yes but these are all creations of Phoenix anyway so whats your point? That is CURRENT continuity. Its reverted back to how it was originally. Most of the comics you picked up to enlighten yourself were from the retcon period. Its like arguing about the cube beings being able to take out all the absracts and the celestials. That wouldnt work because they got retconned and are nothing now. You just have to deal with it.

Jean as Phoenix is one with the primal force of creation second only to TOAA. She got retconned. Phoenix became just another cosmic in the universe. GM reverted the phoenix story back to how it was originally. It is CURRENT continuity. Just accept it.


"There were two Phoenix force too, what’s you point?

There is Phoenix Force in what if, in different reality, and in our Reality. Doesn’t mean much, what matter it’s who it defeated."

KG understand this. Get the 86 retcon out of your mind. Just like people had to get the omnipotent beyonder out of their heads. Its just not the case anymore. The terrible mistakes made by writers during that retcon period have been cleared up by GM and Greg Pak. There is only one primal force of creation. It is not the phoenix unto itself. The avatars are the phoenixes. The name is just representative of their death and rebirths into higher beings. There are many avatars in the multiverse which tap into the force but there is only one force. What is so hard to understand. Forget the retcon era comics.


"This is a fight and in a fight IG has defeated all except LT."

Defeated powerful beings CURRENT continuity states are just creations of the primal force of creation which makes jean and others with phoenix potential Phoenixes.


"LT > Phoenix Force"

The retcon Phoenix maybe. However the retcon Phoenix is not what we must go by now. It is not CURRENT continuity. What is CURRENT is that the avatars are the phoenixes. The firebird we see manifested in phoenix stories are just created by the avatars they are shards of themselves. It is not a separate entity. LT was not as powerful as jean when she first united with the primal force. This got retconned. It was the retcon phoenix that you seemed to be reading up on.

Its like me reading Secret Wars because i dont know a lot about the beyonder and then jumping into a cosmic battle thread and saying he would win because he did this and that to LT and all the multiverse and blah blah blah. KG it doesnt work like that. See how silly that is? Anything from 86 up to but not including New Xmen a few years back is retcon era. That stuff has been abolished. It ISNT continuity. So no every piece of work cant be used as evidence KG.

"Primal Force had to obey LT"

Retcon phoenix which equals 'just another cosmic being' obeyed LT. Original Phoenix which is now the one in CURRENT continuity was above LT and created all of the multiverse and was both beyond it and one with it all. It was the primal force of creation which created all of the abstracts and is heavily and not so subtlely made out to be an aspect of TOAA

. The retcon Phoenix was just an energy field given sentience after a communion with Feron. This field was derived from the psyches of everything in the universe. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Thank god thats NOT CURRENT continuity.
Byrne's retcon happened to Phoenix Force in 1986

LT was holding Phoenix in 1989 so much for the retcon theory.

"Byrne's retcon happened to Phoenix Force in 1986

LT was holding Phoenix in 1989 so much for the retcon theory."

So if Byrne retconned Phoenix in 86 and the phoenix never changed back to its original state until about 2 years ago what point are you trying to make my friend?

All youve done is make me have to reiterate just exactly why phoenix would win. People have the retcon era (1986 to 2003) too firmly embedded in their heads. Its not how phoenix was originally intended and its not how the phoenix situaation is in CURRENT continuity.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Byrne's retcon happened to Phoenix Force in 1986

LT was holding Phoenix in 1989 so much for the retcon theory."

So if Byrne retconned Phoenix in 86 and the phoenix never changed back to its original state until about 2 years ago what point are you trying to make my friend?
It was the primal force.

did you read that comic?

Phoenix force ( the force had to obey LT)

Originally posted by kgkg
It was the primal force.

did you read that comic?

Phoenix force ( the force had to obey LT)

KG i see you've misunderstood your proof again. Theres a difference between being a primal force and THE primal force. A primal force is just a fundamental force that is around from the beginning. THE primal force is the one from which all others originate from. The original Phoenix was the union of jean and THE primal force of creation.

The retcon Phoenix was a primal force which embodided passion namely the passion to create and destroy. It wasnt responsible for the creation of the abstracts like the original phoenix was intended to be. It was just a sentient energy field derived from the psyches of all living things. Its just not the same is it Kg?

Try reading up on New Xmen so that you can find out about what actually is current continuity. Seriously. It really is like me reading Secret Wars and then spouting off about the Beyonder.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Try reading up on New Xmen so that you can find out about what actually is current continuity. Seriously. It really is like me reading Secret Wars and then spouting off about the Beyonder.
No you seem to forget that before Byrne's retcon The Phoenix force was just that a force.

Like Gravity

Byrne made Phoenix force an entity with a mind of its own.

What new X-men are you talking about?

Where did she create all the entities? What issue was that can you give me issue number still doesn't show it is > IG

But what issues? Did it create the abstract?

"No you seem to forget that before Byrne's" retcon The Phoenix force was just that a force.

Like Gravity"

KG understand this. The retcon phoenix was a sentient energy field. It was just the living psychic energy of all beings in the universe. This phoenix wasnt THE primal force of creation. It was just another cosmic entity. It just embodied life and death. Your comparison to gravity is far from accurate. Think of the force as something akin to the one in Star Wars in how it lives and breathes in everything. All existence is one with it. Everything in creation was connected to it. The retcon phoenix was just sentient psychic energy that was parasitic in nature. It fed off the energy of life unborn when sentient.

"Byrne made Phoenix force an entity with a mind of its own."

Yes youre quite right. He made it just another cosmic entity. As opposed to jean actually being phoenix after the union between her and THE primal force of creation (heavily suggested to be an aspect of TOAA) Jean actually was phoenix. The firebird energy signature just representative of her death and eventual rebirth as a higher being.

"What new X-men are you talking about?"

The New Xmen was a comic book series. It started just over 2 years ago i believe. It gets rid of the 86 retcon and clarifies all inconsistencies within the phoenix story. Id read it if i was you.

"Where did she create all the entities? What issue was that can you give me issue number still doesn't show it is > IG"

Check through FF. The last 6 issues. It shows that the phoenix force created abstracts such as eternity and so on. When comparing characters in comics you go by their feats in the comics, their status in current continuity and just general common sense on the character. Rucking in a universe and owning some universal abstracts, as opposed to creating the multiverse and said abstracts, holding a universe in ones hand and remoulding it in terms of both time and space. The power to create far exceeds the power to destroy. Thanos could become the absolute power of an actuality. This universe and its slither of time/ space. The phoenixes power and influence extend through all of creation. It is the multiverse its essence courses through it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"No you seem to forget that before Byrne's" retcon The Phoenix force was just that a force.

Like Gravity"

KG understand this. The retcon phoenix was a sentient energy field. It was just the living psychic energy of all beings in the universe. This phoenix wasnt THE primal force of creation. It was just another cosmic entity. It just embodied life and death. Your comparison to gravity is far from accurate. Think of the force as something akin to the one in Star Wars in how it lives and breathes in everything. All existence is one with it. Everything in creation was connected to it. The retcon phoenix was just sentient psychic energy that was parasitic in nature. It fed off the energy of life unborn when sentient.

"Byrne made Phoenix force an entity with a mind of its own."

Yes youre quite right. He made it just another cosmic entity. As opposed to jean actually being phoenix after the union between her and THE primal force of creation (heavily suggested to be an aspect of TOAA) Jean actually was phoenix. The firebird energy signature just representative of her death and eventual rebirth as a higher being.

"What new X-men are you talking about?"

The New Xmen was a comic book series. It started just over 2 years ago i believe. It gets rid of the 86 retcon and clarifies all inconsistencies within the phoenix story. Id read it if i was you.

"Where did she create all the entities? What issue was that can you give me issue number still doesn't show it is > IG"

Check through FF. The last 6 issues. It shows that the phoenix force created abstracts such as eternity and so on. When comparing characters in comics you go by their feats in the comics, their status in current continuity and just general common sense on the character. Rucking in a universe and owning some universal abstracts, as opposed to creating the multiverse and said abstracts, holding a universe in ones hand and remoulding it in terms of both time and space. The power to create far exceeds the power to destroy. Thanos could become the absolute power of an actuality. This universe and its slither of time/ space. The phoenixes power and influence extend through all of creation. It is the multiverse its essence courses through it.
Can you give me issue of FF last 6 issue what's the issue number

As for creation of everything you are the very few who actually believe that she is next to god

i need issue numbers

"Can you give me issue of FF last 6 issue what's" the issue number"

Of course. Thats the least i can do for the man who made me this sig

FF 521-527. Can someone verify this please i dont have my comics with me im at uni.

"As for creation of everything you are the very few who actually believe that she is next to god"

I know and i can understand why people wouldnt know the truth behind the phoenix. The phoenix character has existed for 25years. For 17 years the retcon was in place. Thats no longer the case. Just like you have to accept the massive changes to the beyonder and the cube beings, so must you accept the changes in phoenix. The original idea made so much more sense in the first place and isnt full of inconsistencies.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"Can you give me issue of FF last 6 issue what's" the issue number"

Of course. Thats the least i can do for the man who made me this sig

FF 521-527. Can someone verify this please i dont have my comics with me im at uni.

"As for creation of everything you are the very few who actually believe that she is next to god"

I know and i can understand why people wouldnt know the truth behind the phoenix. The phoenix character has existed for 25years. For 17 years the retcon was in place. Thats no longer the case. Just like you have to accept the massive changes to the beyonder and the cube beings, so must you accept the changes in phoenix. The original idea made so much more sense in the first place and isnt full of inconsistencies.
I have the issue I didn't even see the Phoenix force.

Are you talking about what Reed says?

Reed says big bang = Phoenix force but what does he know?

Originally posted by kgkg
I have the issue I didn't even see the Phoenix force.

Are you talking about what Reed says?

Reed says big bang = Phoenix force but what does he know?

Here are some quotes from Richard's history at Marvel.com:

"From his days as a child prodigy with special aptitude in the areas of mathematics, physics and mechanics to his adults years as the smartest man in the planet..."

"To the world, Mr. Fantastic is a genius who regularly rewrites Hawking and routinely decodes alien languages."

That's what Reed knows.

Coupled with his understanding of the beginning of the universe (which I would assume would be the beginning of space-time as we understand it) is Galactus origin story that he and the abstracts were born at the same time through the same process. What more do you need?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Here are some quotes from Richard's history at Marvel.com:

"From his days as a child prodigy with special aptitude in the areas of mathematics, physics and mechanics to his adults years as the smartest man in the planet..."

"To the world, Mr. Fantastic is a genius who regularly rewrites Hawking and routinely decodes alien languages."

That's what Reed knows.

Coupled with his understanding of the beginning of the universe (which I would assume would be the beginning of space-time as we understand it) is Galactus origin story that he and the abstracts were born at the same time through the same process. What more do you need?

So read knows more than Thanos with the HOUTU? More than LT?

Originally posted by kgkg
I have the issue I didn't even see the Phoenix force.

Are you talking about what Reed says?

Reed says big bang = Phoenix force but what does he know?

What does he know? Well i think Cosmic Flame answered your query suitably enough. However what Reed says is supported by what Eternity says in Xmen Forever about Phoenix being the being that creates life again after the death of everything. He calls it 'the assurance of life after death' i believe.

In the same series when the Stranger wanted to wipe out reality and create a new one with him coming out on top as the supreme being of a new existence what force did he want to use to make it happen? Ok.

In Uncanny Xmen from 101 to 137(Phoenixes entry and exit from Marvel comics) Jean is one with THE primal force of creation that is one with everything, second only to TOAA it states.

You have more than enough evidence laid out for you. Its just time you put that retcon to the back of your mind. Considering the retcon existed for the majority of time Phoenix existed i know its hard but thats how it is in comics.

Unless you dont have them already pick up the entire series of New Xmen, as well those Uncanny issues AND Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43

Back to the Seraphim thing... I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Because the PF heirarchy parallels that of the angels does not mean they have powers akin to angels. The avatars' powers do not stem directly from God, they come from the PF. So an analogy would be PF:Avatars::Goderaphim. Doesn't say anything about their powers. Jean is not Lucifer, Jean is not Michael, stop with the religion. Both LT and the PF have been referenced as TOAA's runner up, but LT was established by a being who happened to be part of, and in control of, everything in the multiverse.

Originally posted by Beyonder
So read knows more than Thanos with the HOUTU? More than LT?

The phoenix isnt an entity to beat. The phoenix is its avatars. Merely called so because of their union with the primal force of creation and rebirth as higher beings. Forget all those images you have of it being a separate entity. Thats all retcon rubbish which hasnt been continuity for quite some time now. The phoenixes exist outside of the multiverse Thanos with HOTU had dominion over. They ONLY intervene in affairs when told to do so by 'The Voice' (heavily suggested to be TOAA). In The End series Thanos eventually gave up his power. If we assume that this Voice actually is TOAA then we can assume also that it knew of this outcome and so know intervention was required. But yeah that is jus a guess as to why any phoenix avatars werent involved in The End. As it stands CURRENT continuity follows the ideas of Chris C. Grant Morrison started this reversion and Greg Pak despite how it initially seems from reading a preview(yeah im talking to you KG lol) Greg cements it. The phoenixes are vessels for THE primal force of creation which is second only to TOAA. All manifestations of the phoenix in a reality are down to that universes avatar. There is not a separate phoenix force entity. Their name and power signature are merely symbolic of their death and rebirths.

"Because the PF heirarchy parallels that of the angels does not mean they have powers akin to angels. The avatars' powers do not stem directly from God, they come from the PF"

Marvel cleverly decided to avoid the explicit religious theme that DC has for its supreme beings and merely deals with equivalents which are suggested to have certain roles through symbology and through names and phrases which directly reference a religious thing. I have already stated what the white crown is. It is a sephiroth a vessel for the essense of God. The phoenixes are linked to seraphim which means fiery ones and were traditionally depicted as fire emblazoned humans with wings. These seraphim are ordered by God to enter the world of man to sort out mans wrongdoings. The Phoenixes are ordered by an unseen Voice to enter our plane of existence (as shown in New Xmen) to carry out their healing and/or disinfection duties.

" Jean is not Lucifer, Jean is not Michael, stop with the religion"

Of course shes not. Marvel opted out of the explicit religious route. Which i think was a smart move because not all readers are of the Christian religion which DC's supreme beings are moulded from. Marvel only has equivalents who occupy similar roles in their comics. Jean as Phoenix of the white Crown through name and through actions in the comics is akin to an Archangel. Her Dc equivalent it seems would be Michael.


"Both LT and the PF have been referenced as TOAA's runner up, but LT was established by a being who happened to be part of, and in control of, everything in the multiverse."

While Phoenix was in its original state she was said to be second only to TOAA. Phoenix got retconned. LT was then top of the hierarchy. Grant M sorted that godawful mess out and the Phoenix situation is how it was. How it should be.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The phoenix isnt an entity to beat. The phoenix is its avatars. Merely called so because of their union with the primal force of creation and rebirth as higher beings. Forget all those images you have of it being a separate entity. Thats all retcon rubbish which hasnt been continuity for quite some time now. The phoenixes exist outside of the multiverse Thanos with HOTU had dominion over. They ONLY intervene in affairs when told to do so by 'The Voice' (heavily suggested to be TOAA). In The End series Thanos eventually gave up his power. If we assume that this Voice actually is TOAA then we can assume also that it knew of this outcome and so know intervention was required. But yeah that is jus a guess as to why any phoenix avatars werent involved in The End. As it stands CURRENT continuity follows the ideas of Chris C. Grant Morrison started this reversion and Greg Pak despite how it initially seems from reading a preview(yeah im talking to you KG lol) Greg cements it. The phoenixes are vessels for THE primal force of creation which is second only to TOAA. All manifestations of the phoenix in a reality are down to that universes avatar. There is not a separate phoenix force entity. Their name and power signature are merely symbolic of their death and rebirths.

Um, no. No Phoenix wasn't involed in The End because the Phoenix isn't that powerful. Your just making excuses as to why Phoenix didn't show up.

It didn't show up during the IG series when Thanos was taking over the universe.
When Warlock was on trial, all the important representatives of the universe showed up. Phoenix was not there.
When Thanos had the HOTU, Phoenix was not there.
When Abraxas showed up, Phoenix was not there.

PF is overrated. It's not second to TOAA; LT is. It's confirmed throughout different books, including X-titles.

IG series had Eternity asking LT to stop Thanos.
Infinity Watch #1 had LT preside over the trial of Warlock & the IG. LT was acknowledged as second only to TOAA.
Infinity War had LT reversed his own verdict.
Thanos with the HOTU acknowledged LT as top dog - not counting himself w/ HOTU of course.
In an X-title, Dweller In the Darkness acknowledged LT's might.

"Um, no. No Phoenix wasn't involed in The End because the Phoenix isn't that powerful. Your just making excuses as to why Phoenix didn't show up."

Isnt that powerful? So how do you explain Jean saving the multiverse from an artifact more powerful than the IG?

How do you explain Jean holding Eternity in her hand and healing the 616 universe and restructuring its timeline?

How do you explain the fact that the force of creation behind phoenix the one which jean as white crown phoenix has a special relationship with, is behind the creation of the multiverse and behind the creation of the abstracts, eternity, infinity, galactus etc? AS STATED IN THE COMICS IM AFRAID.

Those previously mentioned abstracts were deemed powerful enough and important enough for Thanos to face down and put in their place in his quest for dominance yet the being who created them and and all of existence (AS PER CURRENT CONTINUITY.) wasnt given a look in. Doesnt make sense does it?

Beyonder read through the entire thread before posting. Because i am not going to repeat myself. You have brought nothing new to the table. All points you've tried to make have been countered and explained before.

All i need to say to yo is RETCON PERIOD 86-2003 where do a lot of your references fall into? Just curious is all.

Also since Grant Morrisons run was the first to so completely oppose the phoenix retcon of 86. Writers often ignore the work of others unless they are sure its current and consistent with continuity. Why was the writer of The End going to suddenly take on board GM's work after 17 years of retcon. Exactly.

The End had been and gone when EndSong appeared and guess what? It also supported GM's decision to retcon back to Chris C's original idea of Phoenix.

It seems this has had a knock on effect because look whats happened during the EndSong run. FF has acknowledged that Phoenix is responsible for the creation of the multiverse and the abstracts.

Take a leaf out of KG's book and do some good research and then come back to me with a well structured, original argument.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Isnt that powerful? So how do you explain Jean saving the multiverse from an artifact more powerful than the IG?

How do you explain Jean holding Eternity in her hand and healing the 616 universe and restructuring its timeline?

What's your point? Warlock and Thanos have both destroyed a timeline - the Magus'. Time? Chronos controls time. He used time as a weapon against Thanos; Thanos still kicked his ass with no more than a gesture. Holding Eternity in her hand? Thanos stomped Eternity. He only became one with the universe because he subconsciously gave up power. Nebula had the IG when Eternity was captured; she herself didn't become one with the universe.

Death, Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, Stranger, Celestials, Eon, etc. were all prisonners of Thanos. IG > then all these beings.

And what artifact are you talking about that's greater than the IG?



Behind the creation? Galactus existed before the known universe. Eternity and Death came from the birth of the new universe along with Galactus. Phoenix wasn't responsible for anything.

Created? Thanos with the HOTU destroyed the Multiverse. If it created the Multiverse, where was it when Thanos destroyed it? LT, Eternity, Infinity, etc. showed up? Where was it's creator if it truly did create the Multiverse.



Blah blah blah. An X-Title against the amounts of titles from IG sagas to The End, Infinity Watch, Dr. Strange, X-titles, Thor, Avengers, etc. Wow, you've proven nothing. Continituity in an X-title? So? Other titles don't count?

She didn't create anything. Your overrating her powers.

Oh i like this Beyonder good show!! I see you've taken my advice and actually researched before you've contributed. Will wonders never cease?!! Its an improvement nonetheless. Either way let the punking commence:

"What's your point? Warlock and Thanos have both destroyed a timeline "

Destroying a timeline and restructuring one are a bit different im afraid. One requires skill and finesse the other is just standard fare for your average flavour of the month cosmic. Phoenix dd this on a whim and from outside time and space while holding eternity in the palm of her hand. Damn that girls got style.

" Death, Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, Stranger, Celestials, Eon, etc. were all prisonners of Thanos. IG > then all these beings. "

Mere creations of the primal force of phoenix. Phoenix creates millions of these for each of the universes that make up the multiverse. Thanos had a ruck with some of them in A universe and bested them after a little tussle. Oh well. Lets see how he'd fare against the force behind them and their million or so counterparts.

"And what artifact are you talking about that's greater than the IG?"

The M'Kraan crystal of course B. Nexus of all realities? Multiversal reset switch? Not ringing any bells? Damn that comic book knowledge isnt quite up to scratch is it? Its getting there though. Dont give up on it.


"Behind the creation? Galactus existed before the known universe. Eternity and Death came from the birth of the new universe along with Galactus. Phoenix wasn't responsible for anything."

The Phoenix cyclically creates all that is and in the natural course of things destroys it to begin creation anew. Galen and his universe were created by Phoenix Im afraid. The primal force that makes phoenixes was responsible for their creation. Why are you trying to argue with whats in the comic and so very recently at that. You got a problem with CURRENT continuity. Take it up wth Marvel.


"Created? Thanos with the HOTU destroyed the Multiverse. If it created the Multiverse, where was it when Thanos destroyed it? LT, Eternity, Infinity, etc. showed up? Where was it's creator if it truly did create the Multiverse."


The phoenixes exist in the white hot room which is BEYOND the multiverse, BEYOND our plane of existence. It encompasses all that is. (Its in the comics so please dont try and argue im just telling you how it is.) Thanos destroyed the multiverse? So what. Phoenix created it. The power to create far exceeds the power to destroy. Eternity and so on showed up right? Well id expect so considering theyre apart of said multiverse. HOTU gave Thanos ultimate control over a creation of Phoenix. It made him one with it. Yet its power or influence dont extend into the white hot room which is beyond the actuality Thanos ruled.

"
Blah blah blah. An X-Title against the amounts of titles from IG sagas to The End, Infinity Watch, Dr. Strange, X-titles, Thor, Avengers, etc. Wow, you've proven nothing. Continituity in an X-title? So? Other titles don't count? "


God you're still harping on about the IG sagas and references from the 90's

Its a shame they were written during the Phoenix retcon period because otherwise you'd actually have a point.

As i said to KG its kind of like the beyonder retcon. He humbled the multiverse one minute and next thing he was getting punked by Thanos in recent showings. You just have to accept current continuity im afraid. One X-title? Try Xtitles and FF. It was a good try tho.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Destroying a timeline and restructuring one are a bit different im afraid. One requires skill and finesse the other is just standard fare for your average flavour of the month cosmic. Phoenix dd this on a whim and from outside time and space while holding eternity in the palm of her hand. Damn that girls got style.

Your point is what? That's what they did. They were outside of time and destroyed a timeline.

Chronos used time to attack Thanos. Thanos easily attacked back. Time and space is under the IG's control. Fixing time isn't that hard. The IG killed half the universe with a thought; Warlock with a thought fixed everything and put it back in it's place with the IG.

Eternity? Your point is what now? Warlock dimissed Eternity altogether along with a host of other beings including Death.



The force behind them? One book and you seem to thing it stands as evidence. Well, there's dozens of books and titles that says other wise. PF ain't responsible for any of their creation.



The M'Krann Crystal is a big blackhole. What's your point? It sucks things in. Phoenix fixing it isn't much. The one who bothered with it was Phoenix. Nobody else really cared to intervene.

If Phoenix gave a damn about the multiverse, it would've stepped in when Thanos had the HOTU. LT, Eternity, Infinity intervened. Where the hell was Phoenix during this time? The HOTU was an actual Multiverse level threat.



This and that. Well, Thanos said that the Infinity Gems came from the Infinity Being who was bored of being lonely. He comitted suicide and thus the cosmos was born. The Infinity Gems came from that birth as well. Guess what? IG > Eternity, Galactus, etc.


"Created? Thanos with the HOTU destroyed the Multiverse. If it created the Multiverse, where was it when Thanos destroyed it? LT, Eternity, Infinity, etc. showed up? Where was it's creator if it truly did create the Multiverse."



The M'Krann Crystal was a threat to the Multiverse. Phoenix shows up to heal it. HOTU threatens the Multiverse, Phoenix is no where in sight.
The IG was a threat to the universe and possibly the Multiverse - LT and every important being shows up except the Phoenix.

And now your claiming the HOTU as a creation of PF? :laughs:




I'm harping about IG and The End. And FF and X-Titles? Try IG sagas (IG series, IW series, IC series), The End, Dr. Strange titles, X-titles, Thor, Avengers, FF, etc. Not to mention the dozens of crossovers and such. Who the hell was really involed in the Dark Phoenix saga? Or Endsong? How crossovers and such?

As for Phoenix creating all the entities I don’t believe that.

-Death is a multiversal force it had nothing to do with the big bang. Etc

As for Phoenix created all life

That’s just you assumptions

X-Men Forever 6: Phoenix force is resurrection force; she won’t be creating the new universe.

The Phoenix force guarantees rebirth for the next universe to come.

She won’t be creating it human evolution will, human will replace eternity.

As many will die, the survivor will become Galactus of the universe.

As for she created everything that’s just an opinion no where does it state that.

Phoenix force is the force that will help the evolution chain from one Universe to another.