Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

What is The Source what does It do what is Its purpose and for the purposes of this forum how powerful is It and who can beat it?

In DCU its all powerful apart from the true Cristian God (no not the one that died) who also exists in DCU

Whats its purpose? Ive heard it was the PF but for DC.

it protects the presence....from regular space.becasue the presence is allergic to regular space......and if exposed to it , it might get the flu

Source was one of the names which describe God in his aspect of Creator of the Universe,as was Presence. In the DCU it has been introduced in Kirby New Gods stories.It is described as the life-force of the Universe and the force of creation (hence the similarities with the PF) Successive waves from the Source created all the Pantheons of the DCU.

My understanding of it is The Source is an aspect of The Presence. Admittedly, I havent read enough of it to know its purpose. All I know is it gives power to the New Gods. But if its really the life-force of the Universe and the force of creation, then thats probably its purpose(but then again, its the New God's God so I wouldnt be suprise if they also believe that The Source is the ultimate power in DC).

Beings who can beat it? Well The Presence, The Great Evil Beast, Lucifer Morningstar and Archangel Michael could beat it. The combined Endless could probably do it as well, although Im not sure about it.

.........how would The Source do against the PF ?

Originally posted by Synchro
My understanding of it is The Source is an aspect of The Presence. Admittedly, I havent read enough of it to know its purpose. All I know is it gives power to the New Gods. But if its really the life-force of the Universe and the force of creation, then thats probably its purpose(but then again, its the New God's God so I wouldnt be suprise if they also believe that The Source is the ultimate power in DC).

Beings who can beat it? Well The Presence, The Great Evil Beast, Lucifer Morningstar and Archangel Michael could beat it. The combined Endless could probably do it as well, although Im not sure about it.

Originally the Source was very much intended to be the Presence by another name.For me it is above Lucifer,Michael and the Endless and on par with the GEB,and if we really have to make a distinction,only slightly below the Presence (but really,its the same thing.Presence or Source are just different ways of manifestation)
As for lifeforce universe-force of creation it was confirmed outside the New Gods.Basically every superpowered being in the DCU derives its powers from it in some way.There was a crossover by Byrne in which a ripple effect from the Source's Godwave made superpowers go crazy and influenced also the energies of OA.

Sorry markolin, Im such a fool. I would like to retract what I said above. I dont think that The Source is the life-force of the Universe and the force of creation, since I just remembered that it was shown in Lucifer that Lucifer and Michael were the ones who CREATED the DC Multiverse. Now I would like to know where was it said that The Source is the lifeforce universe-force of creation since it surely contradicts what was said in Lucifer.

And you have your opinion, but considering The Source's showing in the Lucifer Comic Book, I very much doubt that its above Lucifer, Michael and TGEB.

The Source's godwave may have made uber-beings go crazy, but did that include Lucifer, Michael and The Spectre?

Mider: Well, Im afraid I cant answer that my friend(at least at this moment) considering that theres alot of confusion about the Phoenix lately(and I thought DC was the only one who has inconsistent writing). My original ranking of the PF was that its on the level of Eternity and Death, and for some reason I have always considered The Source just a teeny weeny bit below LT. But GalacticStorm, markolin and the like have brought up new arguments about the PF. And whle Im still not fully convinced about the origins, power of the current PF, I cant completely overlook it either. I know its extremely hard to believe them, but I will admit that they backed it up with facts countless times now, so I cant just ignore their point of view.

So yeah, as of now I cant answer that question.

Are you kidding The Source is above LT.

No Im serious

there's been some good thoughts on the topic, so i can't add much. it is a life force that seems to have laid the foundations for all the superpowered beings in dc. it permeates everything. i don't think it's fair to say it's above or below LT or the others. it is not a character like the others. could it's powers be superceded by anyone in dc? i'd say only those characters outside the natural framework - ie lucifer. and i'm not sure he could actually 'control' the source power. it is similar to the current theories on the phoenix force.

it's opposite, the anti-life equation, is the chaos/death force that opposes it, and is similar in origin and level to the source.

The Source is above LT its one of the main super entities of DC up there with The Voice and The Word i think even Swampthing feared The Word or The Voice.

Hmmm, then what is the Source Wall?

The Source wall i dont now what that is i know its kinda like a seperation between The Source and this plain i think thats what the wall is basically its almost impregnable even Yuga Khan got taken out TWICE when He tried to breach it Cyborg Superman could controll SOME of it but not all and Lucifer Morningstar is one of the few beings who can traspass it i think. But The Source does act though rarely like the two times it stoped Yuga Khan.

The Source is God, that is what Jack Kirby has said. but then The Presence is God (Yahweh), on a New Gods Site it says The Source is "It is the ultimate "source" of knowledge and enlightenment". Others have said The Source is Gods Will like The Voice is Gods Voice. also has anyone noticed that DC seems to have copied some things off of Star Wars, like how DC has The Source and Star Wars has The Force. Here is a site to try to expain more about The Source.
http://www.sean-walsh.com/newgods/ngfaq.htm

The Source Wall is what i believe separates The Universe from The Source, the beings on the Source Wall are not there because The Source put them there, they are there because they wanted to understand how the Universe was made and wanted more power but they could not get past it and got stuck on it. also the universe/galaxy that Apokolips and New Genesis are in is not connected with the universe that is Supermans, Superman needs a boom tub to get to Apokolips because he cant ever get there flying.


It is kinda hard to figure out who is really God in DC. we have beings like The Source and The Presence both which are said to be God, Then we have The Great Beast, and Imperiex Prime both of who is said to have been here before the DCU was even here. I believe The Source to be God the Father and he predates everything, while The Presence has something that predates it (TGEB) meaning The Presence could be Jesus.

Once again there is your proof people.........Lucifer Morningstar takes the PF cause Lucifer Morningstar treats The Source like nobody but i think they are sepreat entities guys.

I dont think The Source is as high as The Presance i think in the Lucifer Morningstar comics there said to be totally diffrent entities but its great to have new info on The Source adn like i said PF EATS IT AGAINST LUCIFER MORNINGSTAR!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Mider
Once again there is your proof people.........Lucifer Morningstar takes the PF cause Lucifer Morningstar treats The Source like nobody but i think they are sepreat entities guys.

So because a few posters have told you that THEY THINK Phoenix is like Dcs Source you've come to that conclusion? And you call that proof?

Think for yourself Mider and most importantly read some comics.

Well, for me I have no doubt in my mind that The Presence is God and the Supreme Power in DCU, and The Source is an aspect of The Presence. As of now, everything Ive heard about The Source came from the New Gods. And for me, thats not an accurate reference about The Source's position in the multiverse.

IMO, The Source is just like the Greek Gods, The Norse Gods and all the other pantheons. To the people who worship them they are *the* God/s. The Greeks regard the Olympians as the supreme power in the universe, NO ONE ELSE. The Norse regard the Asgardians as the supreme power of the universe, NO ONE ELSE. But if you look at the entire scheme of things(comic wise), they are clearly not at the top of the food chain. Zeus and Odin will never be more powerful than, say, entites like Parallax, The Spectre, The Anti-Monitor, etc.

The Source is like that IMO(only it operates at a much larger scale). It maybe regarded as all powerful and beyond all by The New Gods, but does that mean its true in the entire scheme of things? Also, have you ever asked yourself if there are a good amount of beings outside New Genesis and Apokolips who even knows The Source? Because a good majority of beings in the whole DC Multiverse knows who The Presence is.

I know for sure that The Source is not the top dog but i know also that its pretty high up there like top cosmic level beings just under The Presance Himself.

hmm im pretty sure a few of beings know about The Source, it is just that nobody can really get to that part of the universe from the average dc universe (and cant really get through The Source Wall either, not including Lucifer, Michael and probably The Spectre), they are broke apart and the only way u can get to that part of the universe is through a boom tube, The Swamp Thing and someone else wanted to talk to The Source, they somehow got through the Source Wall but got lost inside of it. Lucifer u say went through it without any problems, and ignored The Source, why would Lucifer ignore it?? because thats not why he is up there, and i don't believe The Source being a aspect of God and Heaven would want to fight with Lucifer anyway, Lucifer and Michael are Yahweh's most favorite. The Source could very well be God's Will and The Voice is God's Voice, without both of them in the DCU, the DCU could end up falling apart (kinda like what is happening now in the DCU since The Presence is gone = no Source and no Voice)

Nope. The Source should absolutely have no reason to not fight him. Again Lucifer is dubbed as the "Adversary", the mortal enemy of the God the Father. And Lucifer being the favorite of Yahweh isnt a good reason either. The Presence didnt have any problems when Amenadiel and the whole Angelic Host tried to attack and kill Lucifer at his Lux bar even though they didnt have any permission from The Presence to do so. So I dont see The Source just letting Lucifer do what he wants especially in his OWN territory, unless he really sees Lucifer as above him, which most certainly is the case.

Plus you just cant ignore The Source. Even if your not looking for The Source, you just cant ignore it. But Lucifer did. He went to The Source without permission, he didnt even acknowledge The Source AT ALL. He just went there and didnt even have any eye contact with it. He COMPLETELY ignored it.

Also, Lucifer and The Source's encounter in the Lucifer Comic Book is another proof why The Source cant be the God the Father or the Presence. Because if he is what you people make him out to be, then why did he just let Lucifer enter his domain and not do something about it? Also, Lucifer would have had a confrontation with The Source right there and then if thats the case, instead of just ignoring him.

Another proof is the Angelic Host themselves. If The Source is God the Father or The Presence, then why do Michael and the Angels only talk and ask permission to the Presence, and not The Source? They never even had any contact with The Source AT ALL. Only Lucifer was the one seen with The Source in the whole Lucifer Series.

The Source is only another aspect of The Presance just like The Dark Beast, its powers are supposidly unlimited i mean when it has acted it defeated Yuga Khan twice with out breaking a sweat i think its an important part of the universe as in one of the building blocks but as most know the forces of the DCU usually out power the forces of the MU i think not even the PF can stop the likes of Lucifer Moringstar.

No Mider, The Great Evil Beast is not an aspect of The Presence or anybody. TGEB already existed even before The Presence himself, and is said to be Presence's complete opposite but equal in power.

How can the Evil Beast exist before The Presance then how is The Presance......The Presance?

Synchro i never really said The Source had a reason to fight him, just saying what it seems The Source is in the DCU. The Source is responsible for the reality that was here before the DC Multiverse. The Source and The Force (Star Wars) seems to share the same theory, that they both are God. The Force has 2 sides of itself, 1 the Darkness and the 2nd is The Light, the darkness was here before the Light. Jack Kirby the King of Comics has said The Source is GOD (the Source created ALL of the Gods in the DCU), this would make perfect sense how the DCU was created, The Source creates the reality that was here before the Multiverse was here, The Presence (God/Yahweh/Jesus) is the Light of the Universe that is The Source's metaphysical body in the multiverse and The Great Evil Beast (Satan) is his Dark side that was not allowed in the universe. This is 1 theory how i have put the DC Universe together from what we know. nobody comes up before God the Father (the Source) but before Jesus Christ (The Presence) his only son. everything was created by the Father through Jesus Christ the creator. not taking anything away from Lucifer but Lucifer is just a fallen angel, not really Gods 1st enemy, Satan is Gods 1st major enemy, Lucifer would be Gods 2nd major enemy. Why would have Lucifer tried to take control of Heaven if he thought he would have lost?? he thought he could pull out a win vs God and take control of Heaven and the Universe because he thought The Presence was wrong, especially wrong for telling all of the Angelic Host to worship human beings, beings that Lucifer believes is below him and the other angels. Lucifer and Michael both are said to be 2nd only too the Presence in power in the Multiverse. The Great Evil Beast is not in the Multiverse so he does not count, he is actually still in hell.

this is how I put the DC Multiverse together from what i have read so far. what do u think?

here is another version on what The Source is.
The Presence( God the Father, Yahweh)
The Source (Gods Will)
The Voice (Gods Voice)
The Word (Jesus Christ)
The Great Beast (Satan)

Why do you keep referring to The Great Evil Beast as Satan? He is NOT Satan. Lucifer IS Satan. You do know that Lucifer and Satan are one, right? Its just 2 names of the SAME person, I mean why do you think Lucifer is called "The Devil"? Im gonna say this again, Lucifer is the "Adversary" The NUMBER 1 enemy of God. It was said MANY MANY times in Sandman and Lucifer.

And No. He didnt tried to take control of Heaven. He was merely fulfilling another tiny segment of The Presence's "great and powerful plan"(He said this in Sandman: Season of the Mist). He was just suggesting something to The Presence that he(Lucifer) thought would help The Presence's plan, but the angels saw this as him disobeying God and accused him of treason. That is why Lucifer rebelled. He never tried to seize heaven. He didnt even thought about it in the first place.

Originally posted by kevdude
Synchro i never really said The Source had a reason to fight him, just saying what it seems The Source is in the DCU. The Source is responsible for the reality that was here before the DC Multiverse. The Source and The Force (Star Wars) seems to share the same theory, that they both are God. The Force has 2 sides of itself, 1 the Darkness and the 2nd is The Light, the darkness was here before the Light. Jack Kirby the King of Comics has said The Source is GOD (the Source created ALL of the Gods in the DCU), this would make perfect sense how the DCU was created, The Source creates the reality that was here before the Multiverse was here, The Presence (God/Yahweh/Jesus) is the Light of the Universe that is The Source's metaphysical body in the multiverse and The Great Evil Beast (Satan) is his Dark side that was not allowed in the universe. This is 1 theory how i have put the DC Universe together from what we know. nobody comes up before God the Father (the Source) but before Jesus Christ (The Presence) his only son. everything was created by the Father through Jesus Christ the creator.

Until you can give me a reference outside the New Gods storyline, I will never consider your theory(no offense). Why do you keep theorizing a tiny segment of the DC storyline(New Gods storyline) over the whole DC storyline? So what if Jack Kirby said The Source is all powerful and such? He could have just said it strictly for the New Gods only( that is their God, what did you expect?). I mean do you see other writers fully supporting Jack Kirby's ideas about The Source(no offense to Mr. Kirby)? Whereas Mike Carey(author of Lucifer and the one who Jack Kirby contradicts so much), was fully supported by Neil Gaiman(author of Sandman), John Ostrander, and Doug Moench(authors of the Spectre series).

And atleast Mike Carey is following the religious theme of DC(i.e Angels, Satan, Heaven, Hell, etc.) Whereas Jack Kirby has his own idea in The Source. What does that tell you? That fact only supports my theory of The Source's origins strictly for the New Gods only, and also about the comparison to the Greek and Norse Gods.

Originally posted by kevdude
here is another version on what The Source is.
The Presence( God the Father, Yahweh)
The Source (Gods Will)
The Voice (Gods Voice)
The Word (Jesus Christ)
The Great Beast (Satan)

This is so much better, only..... drop The Word being Jesus Christ, and TGEB being Satan, because the comics absolutely doesnt show it that way.

umm Synchro The Word must be Jesus Christ, DC follows the Bible and Christians believe The Word is Jesus Christ before he was born on this Earth, another name for Jesus before his birth is Yahshua. and about The Great Beast, it does show on many sites w/comic book numbers that TGEB was bared from creation by God, and on these sites they even say TGEB is what they believe to be Satan himself. meaning somehow The Source/The Presence must have somehow bared it from creation before The First of the Fallen and Lucifer and Michael was created.
http://rhandley.0catch.com/swampthing/Chrono-01.htm

also The Presence has been shown to not really be a perfect being, Yahweh is jealous of anyone that don't worship him, he has even LEFT the DC Universe which God the Father would NEVER leave. the Spectre even i have heard once tried to kill The Presence by cutting off his head believing him to be somewhat evil, i don't know if that is true or not but that is what i have read someone say, even though The Presence beat the Spectre easily when he tried that. the Heavenly Father is not in The Silver City (like the Presence is) he is far above it looking down on everyone and everything much like The Source does in the DCU. also I have a question for you Synchro, when did Lucifer go up to look for Michael and he was ignoring The Source?? was it after The Presence left the Multiverse or before he left??? just trying to figure out how DC has the religious hierarchy for myself and for others to know about also.

Originally posted by kevdude
umm Synchro The Word must be Jesus Christ, DC follows the Bible and Christians believe The Word is Jesus Christ before he was born on this Earth, another name for Jesus before his birth is Yahshua. and about The Great Beast, it does show on many sites w/comic book numbers that TGEB was bared from creation by God, and on these sites they even say TGEB is what they believe to be Satan himself. meaning somehow The Source/The Presence must have somehow bared it from creation before The First of the Fallen and Lucifer and Michael was created.
http://rhandley.0catch.com/swampthing/Chrono-01.htm

The Word is Jesus Christ? Seriously? Even when The Word was beaten by a mere Elemental? So are you saying that Jesus Christ was also beaten by a mere elemental? Is that what your trying to say?

And please stop referring to other sites about TGEB. Go to a comic shop instead and look at Spectre Vol. 3 it was explained much better there.

And do you really want me to list the differences between DC and the Bible? Again, DC is not ENTIRELY following the Bible.

Originally posted by kevdude also The Presence has been shown to not really be a perfect being, Yahweh is jealous of anyone that don't worship him, he has even LEFT the DC Universe which God the Father would NEVER leave. the Spectre even i have heard once tried to kill The Presence by cutting off his head believing him to be somewhat evil, i don't know if that is true or not but that is what i have read someone say, even though The Presence beat the Spectre easily when he tried that. the Heavenly Father is not in The Silver City (like the Presence is) he is far above it looking down on everyone and everything much like The Source does in the DCU. also I have a question for you Synchro, when did Lucifer go up to look for Michael and he was ignoring The Source?? was it after The Presence left the Multiverse or before he left??? just trying to figure out how DC has the religious hierarchy for myself and for others to know about also.

So just because The Presence left creation, he's not God the Father? This is comics, this is not the real world. And besides, your contradicting yourself. Also give me evidence that the Presence is jealous of anyone that dont worship him, because if he is, he couldve destroyed The Source and the other pantheons if thats the case. Give me proof that The Presence is not a perfect being. And again, stop referring to other sites and check the comic books instead, The Spectre has never seen The Presence in his whole life. Whenever he rebels and goes up in heaven, he's always blocked by Michael --> thats as far as he can go. The Spectre only hears The Presence whenever The Presence has him do something.

And FYI, The Presence doesnt live in The Silver City either, he lives above it. When The Presence created the Silver City, his hands was seen holding it. The Source is not far above The Silver City. The Source resides at the edge of creation --> The Silver City is above it. About Lucifer ignoring The Source, its in Lucifer #11 and that was before The Presence left.

You have yet to answer my questions above.

yes The Word is suppose to be Jesus Christ in the real world made flesh. this is why some people say Swamp Thing and Tefe beat God, he didnt really beat God the Presence he beat his Word, which in itself it amazing. But you have also said The Spectre has said The Word may still yet be alive and can never really be destroyed.

And I have given u sites that HAVE The Source and The Presence somewhat acting together and with Comic book numbers, I admit I have not read them (just coming back from not reading comics for awhile) but the people on those site HAVE read them and put The Source somewhat acting for The Presence in the Multiverse, that does not mean The Source is more powerful, it just seems it is his most powerful abstract along with The Voice.

and The Silver City is at the edge of creation but still in creation. when I said The Presence lives in Heaven i meant it as him a few times going there to directly speak to his Angels. The Presence does as well live above everything, watching everything from above somewhat like The Source (Gods Will).

It doesnt really matter if The Word cant die. What matters is it got defeated. Jesus Christ should never be defeated by an earthling.

Originally posted by kevdude
And I have given u sites that HAVE The Source and The Presence somewhat acting together and with Comic book numbers, I admit I have not read them (just coming back from not reading comics for awhile) but the people on those site HAVE read them and put The Source somewhat acting for The Presence in the Multiverse, that does not mean The Source is more powerful, it just seems it is his most powerful abstract along with The Voice.

That's it! thats basically my point, kevdude. As you said, The Source is somewhat acting for The Presence. Well, thats what Im trying to say as well. The Source is just an aspect of The Presence who does his work for him(kinda like The Word doing Presence's work of spreading the word of God). Its is not The Presence himself, and it is not God the Father. Its an aspect of Presence. And yes I agree that its the most powerful abstract/aspect of the Presence. I would rank him above The Voice actually(Ive actually made a ranking of DC's top 50 most powerful beings, although I will be the first to say that its most likely not accurate).

And about The Silver City, well it might not be above The Source's residence. But the fact remains that The Presence exist beyond the Multiverse, and The Source exist in the Multiverse. Just because The Source watches everything that happens in the Multiverse doesnt mean he's God. Lucifer has went to The Source's residence and watched everything that happened in the Multiverse, does that make him God?

Base on reading Lucifer #11, I would say that the place that The Source resides was made to originally have a vantage point to watch everything, not that The Source has the ability to watch everything in the multiverse. As was explained in Lucifer, Lucifer needed a place where he could watch everything that happens in the Multiverse(in order to find Michael), and as Mike Carey said and I quote: "And naturally he chose the best one in the entire creation" (The Source's residence).

So what comics does The Great beast appear in?

Apparently, TGEB appeared in 2 comics. It first appeared in Swamp Thing v2 #50 when it was about to destroy Earth. But Swamp Thing convinced it of its nature which resulted in TGEB going to Heaven instead. Thats the last time TGEB was seen in Swamp Thing(This was in 1986)

The time TGEB went into heaven was shown in The Spectre vol 3, this was in 1993(John Ostrander liked the idea of TGEB, so he arranged it to appear in Spectre and continue its story). And there, the full explanation and origin of TGEB was revealed(i.e TGEB existing before The Presence, etc.).

Moving

so how do they show TGEB being here before The Presence?? I am wondering how something can ever be here before God! and why did God let TGEB in Heaven??

The prescence is currently residing in the primium mobile (where yahweh lived before he abdicated and named lucifer as his successor). The primium mobile is located in the silver city, which is at the edge of creation (above the universe and directly above the plains of armageddon)

The source exists beyond the source wall, which seperates it from the DC Universe. The promethian giants tried to cross it, but ended up chained to it for all eternity because of their arrogance. I also read that the source is the last remaining member of the old gods, who lived on godworld, which was at the centre of the universe. When the old gods were destroyed, godworld split apart and created apokolips and new genesis, and caused them to be dragged into an extra-dimentional region of space seperated from the rest of the universe. The death of the old gods caused a wave of energy (called the 'godwave') to permeate through the universe, changing all that it touched. Over time, the godwave came into contact with various other lifeforms, and caused them to transform into the various pantheons of gods in the DC universe (new gods, olympians, titans, egyptians, jin-en-mok, asgardians, gods of maltus, gods of krypton, gods of tamaran, etc...)

Can someone fill me on The Great Evil Beast, did the Presence win? Wikipedia doesn't have an entry. What's PF?

so how u are saying it, it seems that u think The Presence and Yahweh are 2 different beings but yet joined somehow? is that right eleveninches? or am i mistaken?

also PF is Phoenix Force for short luke....

The source and the prescence are totally seperate.

But i think that yahweh and the presence are somehow linked. Although not the same as each other, they are very similar, and could be thought of as 2 aspects of the same 'God'

ok then i got a another question, since Yahweh has left the DC Multiverse and The Presence has taken his spot, in what Lucifer comic book does it show The Presence taking over for Yahweh??? I myself believed that they both are the same being but different names.

The Source i have read in the DC Encyclopedia that it says its part of The Creators power/will in the Universe