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Maces senses this plot... My inquiry is after Yoda says Carefull planning we must take...


What happened to the planning? Jedis in the temple get erradicated... Which is a shame but a big part of the storyline... Any thoughts.

Yes i know, Disapointing movie

anythoughts to why didn't plan on anything?

Because the Jedi are Stupid and stick to there Old Jedi Ways While the Sith have moved on, QuiGon was the only Jedi to crarry out the New ways and not be on a stupid Political Jedi Council, lol

Good ol' Qui-Gon.

I mis him.

Originally posted by muserke
Good ol' Qui-Gon.

I mis him.

"Not a day goes by that i don't look to his wisdom for guidance"
-Obi Wan-

Ahem...as to the OT, most likely because of arrogance + lack of information

~wickerman~

the jedi did seem a bit like a deer frozen in the headlights just waiting to get hit, no wonder anniken chose to join the other side.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
the jedi did seem a bit like a deer frozen in the headlights just waiting to get hit, no wonder anniken chose to join the other side.

that's a bit ignorant, though i'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound that way. I don't think Anakin joined the other side because they were fooled by the sith or anything. And not because they wouldn't take action (like in their teachings) or that they would take action (like when Windu threatens to kill Sidious). it was other reasons.

~wickerman~

Their wait give them a hell of a bill to pay. And they've payd it dearly

they did waste a lot of time sensing sh!t around and doing video conferences. but you know, sith happens when you have a phantom menace skulking around in the senate.

Sure the DarkSide manifested to a point where it clouded everything that even the top Jedi Master's couldn't sense 1 Sith Master?... I find that hard to believe.. I think there was a flaw with what Lucas did in respect to the Jedi Demise....

The careful planning refers to what they will do if Palpatine does not give up his emergency powers, once general greivous is dead.

Quit dissing the Jedi like that. The ONLY mistake they made, was regarding Anakin. There is no way in hell any of them, not even Yoda, could have forseen what palpy was doing. That is basically his biggest strength. Conceiling his identity and carrying out his plan. Don't fault the Jedi for not seeing through him. As Yoda said several times "the dark side clowds everything"

As far as Anakin goes, that is 100% Obi wans fault for training him poorly. Anyone who spends that much time with the kid should have known exactly what he was thinking. Especially one as weak minded as Anakin. If someone else trained Anakin, the whole storyline wouldn't have happened, because Palps could not have done it without Anakin.

So don't fault the Jedi's for one error in training the one person that could bring them down. It had nothing to do with politics, or the old jedi ways. It was simply Obi wans failure as a master that led to all this.

Obi wan kicks ass, but he did **** up his job, and the Jedi's paid the price for it.

Originally posted by Vanquish
Quit dissing the Jedi like that. The ONLY mistake they made, was regarding Anakin. There is no way in hell any of them, not even Yoda, could have forseen what palpy was doing. That is basically his biggest strength. Conceiling his identity and carrying out his plan. Don't fault the Jedi for not seeing through him. As Yoda said several times "the dark side clowds everything"

As far as Anakin goes, that is 100% Obi wans fault for training him poorly. Anyone who spends that much time with the kid should have known exactly what he was thinking. Especially one as weak minded as Anakin. If someone else trained Anakin, the whole storyline wouldn't have happened, because Palps could not have done it without Anakin.

So don't fault the Jedi's for one error in training the one person that could bring them down. It had nothing to do with politics, or the old jedi ways. It was simply Obi wans failure as a master that led to all this.

Obi wan kicks ass, but he did **** up his job, and the Jedi's paid the price for it.

totally agree the dark side clouds everything (Yoda)
I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda...I was wrong (Obi-wan.)
How do you people enjoy these movies if you continually and purpousely look for stuff to pick it apart.

I don't think Obi Wan can be held totally responsible. He probably could have done a few things better, but Anakin made all his choices himself. His failure to listen to Obi Wan, Yoda, Mace and all the other masters was his main problem. He only wanted to listen to someone who agreed with him all the time and made him feel powerful, enter Palpatine. Anakins pride and selfishness are not Jedi traits they are more Sith, thats why Palpatine always had the upper hand.
Anakin didn't think of himself as an average Padawan or Knight he always thought he was better than the rest, seeking more power for his own reasons. Any other Knight would have been honored to be appointed to the council but not Anakin. He was easy prey for someone as clever and manipulative as Palpatine.

Uh... points made, but think about it.

If you were a slave, and rescued and taken away from your mother. Don't you think at some point, you would want your mother to be freed?

Give me a break. If that was Qui gon training Anakin, he would have been like, Dude, it's been a year, lets go get your mother and free her.

Anakins mothers death was really the thing that set him off. Can you believe that in all those years, Obi wan didn't take Anakin on a personal mission to at least make sure his mom was ok?

Obi wan fuked up, plain and simple.

um did he not admit that?
"I thought i could instruct him as well as Yoda...I was wrong.."

Originally posted by Vanquish
Uh... points made, but think about it.

If you were a slave, and rescued and taken away from your mother. Don't you think at some point, you would want your mother to be freed?

Give me a break. If that was Qui gon training Anakin, he would have been like, Dude, it's been a year, lets go get your mother and free her.

Anakins mothers death was really the thing that set him off. Can you believe that in all those years, Obi wan didn't take Anakin on a personal mission to at least make sure his mom was ok?

Obi wan fuked up, plain and simple.

I agree about all Anakins feelings stemming from being a slave and all, but this just confirms that he was never really Jedi material in the first place. Yoda and the council were doubtful from the start, but they took a chance knowing that Anakin would have a hard time adjusting and letting go of his mother. If it was so easy to free his mother im sure Anakin himself would have gone back and done it. Im not saying that Obi Wan was blameless, but saying its all his fault because he trained Anakin the way he had been taught lets Anakin off the hook a bit too easily dont you think?

1. I'm not dissing the Jedi... Read the post. I think Lucas had a slight flaw. If anything I'm a bigger Fan of the Jedi than anyone else, being a Martial Artists and a Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I know what it's like when I've let down a student or a student has let me down...

2. I'm trying to make sense of all of it.

3. It is undestood that the things can be clouded by the dark side.

4. Obi-Wan did his best to teach Anakin, but he is really at fault for the Jedi's erradication or does the fault fall onto Quigon, or does it even fall on the council for letting Obi-Wan continue with Anakin's training? Who knows... But this is good conversation.

If you start on the "who's to blame" train of thought it may go all the way back to whoever created Anakin. It was left a bit ambiguous as to where Anakin came from especially after the Opera scene, so instead of blaming Qui Gon for not seeing Anakins faults or Obi Wan for not being more like Qui Gon the blame should fall on Darth Plagueis or Palpatine if indeed Lucas was trying to put forth the idea that one of them created Anakin.

I just think that the whole downfall of the Jedi's lies with Anakin, and his turn to the dark side. If Anakin didn't turn, none of this would have happened. Windu would have killed palps, and order 66 would never have been given, and the empire would have been crushed before it even started.

So starting with the premise that Anakin is the cause of the Jedi's downfall, then where do we go from here?

Of course there are many things that led to his ultimate demise, and i'm sure all of them weigh in there somewhere. I'm just saying that like anything, we go to the biggest cause first. There are dozens of things we could say that helped, but his poor training was number 1.

Now don't forget, Windu says "No, he will not be trained... he's too old" and Yoda also says "the chosen one he may be, but grave danger I fear in his training"

Obi wan says " I will train the boy, without the councils permission if necessary"

Yoda again "Qui gons defiance I sense in you"...

Obi wan insists to train him and they VERY reluctantly agreed. So not only did Obi wan train someone that the council said would not be trained, but he didn't do a very good job of helping Anakin work through his feelings for his mother which sparked his problems to begin with.

It isn't all Obi wans fault of course. Many things could have happened, but I think he is at least the most to blame.

I disagree with Obi-Wan training him poorley. Obi-Wan trained him to be a very skillful Jedi. Where Obi-Wan failed was with is mental training... That is what I can agree with.

Then again Anakin had a sith lord egging him on... lol

Mental training is all they require. Knowledge, experience, and learning to deal with the transition from a normal life, to basically a cyborg with no feelings or connections of any kind.

That is why Obi wan failed. Yes he trained him very well in the force, and fighting. The two of them are legendary in the clone wars. The two most famous Jedi's of all during that time period. But obi wan didn't focus nearly enough on the part that actually mattered.

I think he just flat out forgot that Anakin was far to old to begin with. Obi trained him as if he was a youngling, and then his padawan. He forgot that Anakin had an entire other life before he started to be a jedi, and that is what messed him up...

OOPS

Your last paragraph does make sense. Obi-wan forgets because from his bio in the SW Databank, he's trainined as a Jedi all his life... So he does not know what life is like outside of that... Come together now, it all does.

Remember that Obi Wan only took Anakin as a Padawan because it was Qui Gon's dying wish. Obi Wan was as skeptical as the council but he obeyed his masters last order.

the jedi suck the sith rule!!!!!!!!!!! they got lighting powers

B-Dan... after that post, it is confirmed you are an absolute moron...

Shame, this thread was going along quite nicely.

Originally posted by koolruningz
Remember that Obi Wan only took Anakin as a Padawan because it was Qui Gon's dying wish. Obi Wan was as skeptical as the council but he obeyed his masters last order.


Wait... He'd obey his master but not the council (as he was planning on it if he didn't get thier blessing), isn't that against rules defying the council?

I honestly dont know mate. I guess a dying Jedi's wish outranks the council on this one, or else we would have seen Yoda smack Obi Wan down for defying the council.

I honestly think it's the worst part of the movie when Mace says that. You'd think something like that would spark a little more emotion don't you think? Thats like saying "I think someones going to kill my whole family.......oh well."

^


Exactly my point...... The Dark Side Clouds everything, but finding out the destruction of the Jedi Order. I think something should have been done...

Then again they were attacked by "Surprise"

Originally posted by DenKi
Because the Jedi are Stupid and stick to there Old Jedi Ways While the Sith have moved on, QuiGon was the only Jedi to crarry out the New ways and not be on a stupid Political Jedi Council, lol

Read the books you have mmmm GOOD, but beware the EU for corrupt your vision it will...

Doesn't Yoda's statement in II " The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen...hard to see the future is..."

explain why the Jedi could not predict how bad things would get? Does it also explain why Force sensitive Jedi could not tell that over a thousand Troops all around them all of a sudden posed a threat?

Goodbye Aayla...I hardly knew ya...jedi

I am sure they sensed it once they approached... But not before... I am sure they sensed anakin arraving too. Being so strong in the force, how could you not sense him...

Originally posted by ShadowKing
Doesn't Yoda's statement in II " The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen...hard to see the future is..."

explain why the Jedi could not predict how bad things would get? Does it also explain why Force sensitive Jedi could not tell that over a thousand Troops all around them all of a sudden posed a threat?

Goodbye Aayla...I hardly knew ya...jedi
If you read the Revenge of the Sith book, it says that war clouds the Jedi's perceptions through the force. Basically it says the reason why the Jedi couldn't perceive that their clone warriors were going to turn on them was because of the clones nature.


"And the clones have no malice, no hatred, nor the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders"

ARE U KIDDING ME/ READ THE DARN BOOK U LAZY SOB, IF U ARE SUCH A BIG FAN THE U SHOULD HAVE READ BOOK ALREADY! THEY TALK ABOUT HOW THEY WERE PLANNING ON SIDS EXPOSING HIMSELF KNUCKLEHEAD! JEEEZ, U COME HERE INSTEAD OF LOOKING UR SELF TO KNOW ALL THE ANGLES, IF U CANT READ I APOLOGISE, BUT SEEING AS HOW UR HERE WEEL THEN U SHOULD READ ALL OF U THAT SAID THAT BS! DARN KIDDS, TICK ME OFF, JUST GO PLAY THE VIDEO GAME OF THE MOVIE AND BE HAPPY OR TICKED I DONT CARE.

HEY GARB I DONT MEAN U BUD AT LEAST U READ IT

Qui Gon, he was going to train Anakin regardless of what the council said.

Anakin's traumatic life should serve as a lesson and chance to refelect for the Jedi. Perhaps their way of life is wrong. Perhaps isloating yourself from "normal" life is not helpful. Perhaps abstaining from love between male and female, and not having someone to truly love has affected their judgment on Anakin.

In the EU, Luke is married to someone whilst he is a Jedi. According to the old ways, this would exclude Luke from any Jedi COuncil. Yet, he is the grand master of the new Jedi order... In my opinion, the old Jedi Order (in the PT) is fundamentally flawed with respect to these points...

Give me a break. There have been tens of thousands of Jedi's. You can't judge the Jedi order and their ways because of a few bad seeds like Anakin and Dooku.

Everything the Jedi stand for is what is right in the world. They are completely pure hearted, and good intentioned. But power corrupts, and knowledge of the force and how to manipulate it is power. Of course a few Jedi's are going to fall to the dark side when they get a taste of that power and what they can do with it. But that certainly doesn't mean that what the Jedi stand for, and their code and way of life is in any way flawed.

The only lesson you can possibly learn from that is that Jedi's should aspire to become more like Yoda and Obi wan, and less like Anakin and Dooku.

Whos to blame... ANAKIN!

How was Qui-Gon to know that this kid was a nutcase who would slaughter youndlings just to "keep his wife from dieing".

Just to reference the response regarding the EU about Luke. Luke was married to Mara Jade, and he restrarted the Jedi Order. He is basically the only remaining Jedi after the death of Obi-Wan and Yoda...

He continued on the tradition, like any powerful Jedi should have...lol