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Lucifer Morningstar decides to invade the Marvel Universe... Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet waits for Lucifer at the end of the Marvel Universe. If Thanos fails, the TOAA commands LT to stop Lucifer by whatever means necessary. Battle takes place midway through the Marvel Universe. If he gets by LT, Warlock with the Heart Of The Universe awaits Lucifer on the edge of Marvel Earth's solar system. If Warlock fails the TOAA will take a physical form, and battle Lucifer himself. Can he get through them all?

1. Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet

2. Living Tribunal Full Power with a command from the Presence to Stop Lucifer.

3. Adam Warlock with THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE...

4. THE TOAA...


Debate.

I think LT can stop him. But he is only the hand of the TOAA. Warlock with THOTU will definitely stop him imo.

Even if LT works for TOAA, he doesnt get power from him like The Spectre does to the Presence. My understanding of it is TOAA already gave LT power from the beginning. So even if TOAA orders LT to destroy Lucifer, LT can only do it on his own powers.

Lucifer gets past Thanos w/IG and LT, but loses to Warlock w/HOTU.

If LT won't stop him, Adam with HOTU certainly will.

Adam isn't incoruptable. If he fights him chances are he takes lucifer takes THOTU.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Adam isn't incoruptable. If he fights him chances are he takes lucifer takes THOTU.

Isn't Lucifer evil?

I don't think THOTU cares about the ideals of good and evil. That's really more of a mortal thing.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
I don't think THOTU cares about the ideals of good and evil. That's really more of a mortal thing.

I wasn't implying that it did, Merc. Does it?

I just wanted to know whether Lucifer is purely evil or not.

Actually Warlock is incorruptible. He has already expelled all good and evil from his soul. He is a neutral party. He will step in, and restore balance. That's it. He will not bow to either side. Warlock will expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe.

Originally posted by Sentry
Actually Warlock is incorruptible. He has already expelled all good and evil from his soul. He is a neutral party. He will step in, and restore balance. That's it. He will not bow to either side. Warlock will expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe.

Really? Cool, damn, that isn't why the "Goddess" exist is it? I should have known better.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I wasn't implying that it did, Merc. Does it?

I just wanted to know whether Lucifer is purely evil or not.

He stopped playing the game, He doesn't care for those ideals either.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
He stopped playing the game, He doesn't care for those ideals either.

What game?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
What game?

God's game. Lucifer always reffered to the ultimate struggle between good and evil a game.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
God's game. Lucifer always reffered to the ultimate struggle between good and evil a game.

Aww man... I was hoping you were going to say "Grand Theft Auto," or "Super Mario Brothers 3." You keep disappointing me.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Aww man... I was hoping you were going to say "Grand Theft Auto," or "Super Mario Brothers 3." You keep disappointing me.

HAHAHAHAHA, sorry.

How can any of these guys destroy or even hurt Him through i mean He didnt even get a tan when He was at ground zero at a explosion that could destroy a multiverse so even if His powers alone werent enough to take these guys out His duribility makes Juggernauts to Hypertion to Galactus and even LT's look like a joke not even PF can servive that it think so If His total powers arent good enough He could just go psychical force on them and they wouldnt be able to stop Him less they new magic andddd i dont think any of these guys do sooooo there screwed.

Originally posted by Mider
How can any of these guys destroy or even hurt Him through i mean He didnt even get a tan when He was at ground zero at a explosion that could destroy a multiverse so even if His powers alone werent enough to take these guys out His duribility makes Juggernauts to Hypertion to Galactus and even LT's look like a joke not even PF can servive that it think so If His total powers arent good enough He could just go psychical force on them and they wouldnt be able to stop Him less they new magic andddd i dont think any of these guys do sooooo there screwed.

Even the TOAA? Marvel's Presence?

TOAA destroyed the MU once by absorbing all of it but then He totally used up all His powers when He recreated it so does that mean He could generate power enough that would be MORE then the power to destroy one multiverse cause destroying one multiverse didnt even Phase Lucifer Morningstar im not saying He is unstoppable The Presance could beat Him but you gotta understand This guy was made to be unstoppable its said He and Micheal when combined are equal to The Presance and even if that is not true Lucifer Morningstar was said to be created in order to one day succed The Presance.

Once again im not saying Lucifer Morningstar is unstoppable.

once again, if Lucifer is evil, why is he God's favorite?

It still not proven that Michael and Lucifer combined are equal to The Presence. Although eleveninches stated the issue # but I still havent checked it out. Its also not proven that Lucifer(or Michael) will suceed The Presence since The Presence is already gone and he didnt appoint any successor.

And Cosmic Cube, Lucifer is not purely evil. Lucifer is just a being who just wanted to live his own life and decide his own fate. But because he lives in The Presence's turf(the DC Multiverse), he cant achieve what he wants. Thats why he wanted to leave creation and wanted to have a multiverse of his own in the first place. He just wanted to be free of The Presence, thats all. He never had the desire to hurt people. He never had the desire to convince people to the "dark side"(hmm... sounds familiar that one). He never really cared about them to be honest. In fact, he even complained why people always blame him, the devil, of all their wrong doings, when he didnt even do anything to them.

So yeah. He just wanted to be free, because as long as he stays in the DC Multiverse, The Presence will always be the one who controls his life. And the very thought of that makes him really sick to the core.

Anyway as for the subject. I forgot another weapon of Lucifer ---> His Mind. Lucifer doesnt need to corrupt Adam(he doesnt even do that kind of stuff). He could just trick Adam into giving up HOTU, or not killing him, or better yet join him in his crusade. He is the God of Deception after all. Now Im not saying that its 100% sure that it will happen, but its entirely possible. Unless Warlock cannot be tricked as well, which I doubt very much.

lucifer gets past thanos, tribunal and even THOTU{even though some people might disagree with this}, but he most definately can NOT defeat the one above all,

He could if he takes the THOTU from Warlock.

no no, i meant without taking it, simply by battling it, i have enough reason to believe that he could, even if others dont wanna know about it.

TOAA?

no, i mean the heart of the universe.

This is a planned attack though, why wouldn't he take THOTU? Could he defeat TOAA with the THOTU?

i dont think so mecilous, i got a feelin that TOAA is a lot more powerful than THOTU.

Even so, is it more powerful than the combined powers of Lucifer and THOTU?

i would think so yes, i would put lucifer at roughly a slightly higher rank then the true beyonderss and lower than the infinite being.

Well the thread says he plans to take over the MU, that to me says he gets prep, still think he can't do it?

well i would have said yes if this was the dc universe cause its been done before n lucifer knows his enemie but TOAA has stayed rather quiet compared to the presence or the great beast dont u think.

I'm just not sure, I guess it's wise not to assume though.

i know it isnt, but considering that he made the entire multiverse{the infinite being}, the beyond realm{which is greater than the multiverse} and any other marvel reality, id say he is more powerful than lucifer or the heart.

Oh, I think you misunderstood, I was saying it was wise for me to assume.

i would think that since toaa created the multiverse, and presumably everything in it, that nothing 'in it' not one thing or everything togther, ie LT + IG + lucifer + HOTU + etc . . . could defeat him. toaa could simply remove the power that he/she gave in the first place. toaa is truly above all and imho truly untouchable and invincible. doesn't make sense to me otherwise.

TOAA is above all like leo says

no one can beat him

Lucifer with Michale is not equla to TOAA, Lucifer wit hall DC Universe won't be equal to TOAA, TOAA will just blin then all out of existnece. Anyway Adam with HOTU will crush Lucifer.

<<Anyway Adam with HOTU will crush Lucifer.>>

i would highly doubt that. i'd doubt the hotu would have any impact at all on lucifer who is technically outside the multiverse and all the laws that govern it.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Anyway Adam with HOTU will crush Lucifer.>>

i would highly doubt that. i'd doubt the hotu would have any impact at all on lucifer who is technically outside the multiverse and all the laws that govern it.
And HOTU follows laws interesting: laugh:

of course it does. it will be governed by the power that created it, first of all. and since it exists within the framework of the multiverse, in fact, appears to be the very essence of that multiverse, it would seem to follow that it must follow the rules established in this multiverse. it can control all aspects of those rules, but why would its influence matter to someone entirely outside its realm of governance? i think it just wouldn't affect him in anyway, or hold any sway over him. like nothing else would either. lucifer is beyond normal characters or limits. and frankl, he should be.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Anyway Adam with HOTU will crush Lucifer.>>

i would highly doubt that. i'd doubt the hotu would have any impact at all on lucifer who is technically outside the multi-verse and all the laws that govern it.

Once Lucifer steps into the marvel universe, He will be vulnerable to the Infinity Gauntlet/HOTU. He's in the marvel universe now, anything that didn't affect him before would have an affect on him now. Lucifer talk Warlock into giving up THOTU? Not gonna happen. Who's the one who talked so sense into Thanos and recovered the Infinity Gauntlet from Nebula? Warlock. Who arrived at THE END to again convince Thanos the error of his ways when everyone else was blinked out of existence including the LT(Lucifer's not the only one who is exist outside the multi-verse, why do you think he didn't get blinked out of existence by Thanos in THE END) Warlock arrived. He's no idiot. With good and evil expelled from his soul, he will not bow to either side, good or bad. He will expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe back to his part of the DC Universe. He may get past Thanos and LT, he will not get past Warlock.

Originally posted by leonidas
of course it does. it will be governed by the power that created it, first of all. and since it exists within the framework of the multiverse, in fact, appears to be the very essence of that multiverse, it would seem to follow that it must follow the rules established in this multiverse. it can control all aspects of those rules, but why would its influence matter to someone entirely outside its realm of governance? i think it just wouldn't affect him in anyway, or hold any sway over him. like nothing else would either. lucifer is beyond normal characters or limits. and frankl, he should be.
governed by the power that created it? lol and luficer wasn't created by ? lol and Lucifer wasn't created by GOD? lol

No HOTU is not restricted by the multiverse , he absorbed everything

LT is the highest force in the multiverse.

Only people that are omniversal is GOD, and HOTU also became Omniversal

Lucifer is a angle that was mind controlled by fernis

why would hotu be omniversal? and you said hotu doesn't follow laws. obviouslly it does. lucifer does as well, or he would have won his war. but unlike lucifer, hotu was created after lucifer WITHIN the confines of the multiverse. why would it be able to affect him? i'm not necessarily implying lucifer is more 'powerul' than the hotu, simply outside its realm of influence. nor am i saying he is necessarily more powerful than LT. they all have 'infinite' power, just to differing degrees.

Originally posted by leonidas
why would hotu be omniversal? and you said hotu doesn't follow laws. obviouslly it does. lucifer does as well, or he would have won his war. but unlike lucifer, hotu was created after lucifer WITHIN the confines of the multiverse. why would it be able to affect him? i'm not necessarily implying lucifer is more 'powerul' than the hotu, simply outside its realm of influence. nor am i saying he is necessarily more powerful than LT. they all have 'infinite' power, just to differing degrees.

Obviously it does-- how so? What laws does it follow Leo?

HOTU is everything there is he is all death, eternity, LT everything.


HOTU= Power of GOD.

As for Lucifer he can't even leave his universe (dimension without permission)


HOTU = Onmiversal because he is everything there is, power that is govern by nothing.

Thanos said that his power is beyond everything.

Obviously God > HOTU

But HOTU basically made Thanos GOD.

where did you get the idea that he follow laws?

It will affect him. The battle takes place place in the Marvel Universe. Lucifer is a powerful being, Nothing in the DC Universe besides the Presence can actually harm him. I'm just saying, that just like when Darkseid possessed the Infinity Gauntlet in the DC Universe it had no power...In the Marvel Universe, it's wielder's power second only to the LT and then the TOAA. Since the battle takes place in the Marvel Universe, Lucifer can and will be affected by the power of the IG to a degree...Nothing Lucifer can't overcome theoretically. Lucifer's powers in the Marvel Universe could also be far different from that of his own universe. His powers theoretically might not work as well in the Marvel Universe compared to how it would work in his own. He could theoretically be stopped by Thanos with the IG. Although it's possible it's not likely.

ah, okay sentry. i see where you're coming from. i don't like the argument though because their is no presence in marvel, hence there couldn't theoretically BE a lucifer in marvel. to make the debate feasible, you have to transplant him into marvel and allow him the same status he would have in dc - namely second ONLY to presence/toaa.

and kg, i think your reasoning is faulty for 2 reasons: (1) you assume the multiverse is ALL that is. is can't be. toaa and lucfier existed in a place BEFORE the multiverse was created. so there is an unwritten assumption that a realm exists outside the multiverse that NOTHING, NO POWER can exert control over. ie - hotu cannot have power over 'heaven'. thus, this is one of the laws hotu must follow.

(2) you claim hotu = power of god. no it doesn't. it is an aspect of his power, a portion, a part of it made manifest in the multiverse. with it, anyone can control all aspects of reality/law in the multiverse. when hotu destroyed 'everything' it did not/could not have destroyed that place that existed BEFORE the multiverse - a place lucifer existed/exists. which is why i still say hotu wouldn't affect lucifer and is below lucifer - if not in power, than at least in . . . origin?

liki kgkg said, HOTU is not restricted by the multiverse.
leonidas, do you think HOTU is limited to that, HOTU has no limit, he has power over all exisetnce, not only multiverse, all omniverse, all existence, everyvere, compeltely everywhere. Lucifer has the same status in Marvel as in DC, still, HOTU will crush him, he will do whatever he wants to do to Lucifer. TOAA is beyond Lucifer, Lucifer has fraction of TOAA power (Lucifer has limits), while HOTU doesn't, it doens't have limits, it's only limits is, that TOAA can stop it, cause it's still TOAA. Luicfer needs Michael, THOTU didn't need anything, he brought everything to life like nothing, restored whole Multiverse like nothing. No matter where Lucifer is, Adam with HOTU will crush him and than would destroy that place (outside of whetever you want it to be outside), like it never existed.
Which issue was when Thanos joind with HOTU, I must read that again.

Isn't Lucifer a high ranking angel? Why wouldn't he reside in heaven?

and i'll respectfully disagree. makes no sense toaa would create an artifact capable of destroying 'heaven'. what possible purpose could it serve? the displays of power hotu shows may be things lucifer is incapable of (no one really knows the full extent of his powers) but because it could do more doesn't mean it could UNDO him. is hotu beyond/greater than the Source? they seem very similar to me. just that no one has harnessed the source to do what hotu has done. is the source CAPABLE of doing the same thing? in my opinion yes it is. and lucifer is beyond the source. spectre is also an aspect of the presence in the multiverse, capable of wielding the presence's power, like hotu is an aspect of toaa's power. lucifer is beyond spectre. just because hotu displays the ridiculous ability to wipe out the multiverse, doesn't mean it could wipe out lucifer, like the other powers i mentioned could not. obviously this is ALL speculation, but that's my opinion and i'll not be changing it i'm afraid.

Originally posted by leonidas




1) multiverse is all realms , dimentions , universes. ( in marvel hell is part of the multiverse)

Beyond the multiverse doesn't mean it can't be defeated (Fernis a enties like Choas controled Lucifer)

one law HOTU must follow- THanos said there is nothing nothing above him he was all he was heaven also (there is no heaven in marvel , if there was he will be heaven also)

so just cuz Lufier lives beyond the multiverse HOTU can't effect it? that's bull.



no God's power - God made the marvel multiverse and beyond, THanos become Marvel Multiverse and beyond.


lol marvel doesn't go with the religion heaven and hell.

Mephisto, Satan, other demonic entities dominates marvel's hell (Mephisto’s realm) = Lucifer then

Doesn’t sound rite does it

What is so hard to understand that HOTU is all of creation everything?

Thanos himself said that there is no limits he is below nobody.

heaven , hell ? please

Hell of marvel = Mephisto

IG > Mephisto and his hell domain.

outside the multiverse doesn't mean much , beacuse luficer still has limits , while Thanos with HOTU is all there is.

if Luficer came to marvel

Lucifer will be part of HOTU.

HOTU = all of gods creation and power over it

Luficer = gods creation

HOTU > Lucifer

thanos said the same about the IG, and was wrong, because hotu seems to be above IG. and i said if we brought lucifer to marvel he would have to be at the same level he's at in dc - namely second to the presence. so, the equivalent in marvel would be second to the toaa and above LT. marvel's 'hells' are not equivalent, that's a ludicrous statement. i said he would need to be EQUIVALENT to his dc status or the debate is moot.

hotu = the Source

don't see why hotu (a ridiculous artifact) would affect/hinder lucifer anymore than the source does. regardless of how much you rant otherwise.

TOAA and The Presance are diffrent TOAA is not more powerful then The Presance THOTU was not a real artifact it was bate for Thanos TOAA knew that Thanos would take His power and then have to totally destroy Himself in order to fix the multiverse from armegeddon TOAA then most lickly reasumed His power as TOAA after Thanos was destroyed and He killed everything? Why was Adam Warlock still alive and Death and no TOAA didnt create the Beyond Realm even Galactus said It was BEYOND the mulitiverse as in beyonder the power of TOAA if you ever read the secret wars Beyonder had powers several hundred times that of the combined powers of the multiverse including everything in it TOAA rules MU and The Presance rules DCU there not the same being and if you ask me The Presance could defeat TOAA thats pretty stupid to assume no one can defeat TOAA so now what DC has to make sure its Characters are not as powerful as TOAA thats not even logical.

Originally posted by leonidas
thanos said the same about the IG, and was wrong, because hotu seems to be above IG. and i said if we brought lucifer to marvel he would have to be at the same level he's at in dc - namely second to the presence. so, the equivalent in marvel would be second to the toaa and above LT. marvel's 'hells' are not equivalent, that's a ludicrous statement. i said he would need to be EQUIVALENT to his dc status or the debate is moot.

hotu = the Source

don't see why hotu (a ridiculous artifact) would affect/hinder lucifer anymore than the source does. regardless of how much you rant otherwise.


IG made thanos master of Time, space , etc.

HOTU made him all there is

You can't understand it, it's all good I know it's hard sometimes.

Originally posted by Mider
TOAA and The Presance are diffrent TOAA is not more powerful then The Presance THOTU was not a real artifact it was bate for Thanos TOAA knew that Thanos would take His power and then have to totally destroy Himself in order to fix the multiverse from armegeddon TOAA then most lickly reasumed His power as TOAA after Thanos was destroyed and He killed everything? Why was Adam Warlock still alive and Death and no TOAA didnt create the Beyond Realm even Galactus said It was BEYOND the mulitiverse as in beyonder the power of TOAA if you ever read the secret wars Beyonder had powers several hundred times that of the combined powers of the multiverse including everything in it TOAA rules MU and The Presance rules DCU there not the same being and if you ask me The Presance could defeat TOAA thats pretty stupid to assume no one can defeat TOAA so now what DC has to make sure its Characters are not as powerful as TOAA thats not even logical.
TOAA is not more powerful than Presence? Who said anything about this?

TOAA Knew? You mean because God know all.

God didn't create the beyond realms? Lol

God created everything in marvel.

Originally posted by kgkg Beyond the multiverse doesn't mean it can't be defeated (Fernis a enties like Choas controled Lucifer)

Whats your point? If you really think HOTU is above Lucifer, then think that way, heck thats what I think as well. But can you atleast argue FAIRLY? Make you arguments logical and within the bounds of what weve seen in the comics. You know damn well that Fenris mind controling Lucifer is NOT a very good argument against him. Anybody who is SEVERELY weakened before an encounter with Fenris would be mind controlled. And yes including the one with HOTU.

Anyway, I still believe that Lucifer can trick Warlock. Warlock convinced Thanos in giving up HOTU and talking sense to him to recover IG, cool. But what does that prove again?

Originally posted by Synchro
Whats your point? If you really think HOTU is above Lucifer, then think that way, heck thats what I think as well. But can you atleast argue FAIRLY? Make you arguments logical and within the bounds of what weve seen in the comics. You know damn well that Fenris mind controling Lucifer is NOT a very good argument against him. Anybody who is SEVERELY weakened before an encounter with Fenris would be mind controlled. And yes including the one with HOTU.

Anyway, I still believe that Lucifer can trick Warlock. Warlock convinced Thanos in giving up HOTU and talking sense to him to recover IG, cool. But what does that prove again?
It proves Lucifer can be mind controlled by god's creation.

according to leonidas people that are beyond the multiverse(DC) can't be effected.

Which is funny.

Originally posted by Synchro
Whats your point? If you really think HOTU is above Lucifer, then think that way, heck thats what I think as well. But can you atleast argue FAIRLY? Make you arguments logical and within the bounds of what weve seen in the comics. You know damn well that Fenris mind controling Lucifer is NOT a very good argument against him. Anybody who is SEVERELY weakened before an encounter with Fenris would be mind controlled. And yes including the one with HOTU.

Anyway, I still believe that Lucifer can trick Warlock. Warlock convinced Thanos in giving up HOTU and talking sense to him to recover IG, cool. But what does that prove again?

He won't fall for any of the same tricks he would use against omnipotent beings. Take a look at his enemies he battles normally without the IG. Man-Beast, Goddess, The Magus, Thanos, Eterntiy... Beyonder put it into words of how Warlock would be portrayed if Marvel went the religious route:




Warlock with THOTU has expelled good and evil from his body, and will not be convinced by anyone to give up that power. He would not fall for the same tricks he uses. Warlock is sort of the messiah of the Marvel Universe, for their was at least 3 times he along with a few other Marvel Powerhouses saved the Marvel Universe from destruction, with him being the vanguard. He's very underestimated in Marvel.

You obviously didnt read Thanos: The End THOTU was bate so that TOAA didnt have to die to save the multiverse and thus by allowing Thanos to become TOAA He did die instead of TOAA. Thanos said He tried to absorb everything yet Adam Warlock servived cause He was in a dimension outside the Multiverse.

Originally posted by Mider
You obviously didnt read Thanos: The End THOTU was bate so that TOAA didnt have to die to save the multiverse and thus by allowing Thanos to become TOAA He did die instead of TOAA. Thanos said He tried to absorb everything yet Adam Warlock servived cause He was in a dimension outside the Multiverse.

I didn't read THE END??? Of course I read it... PFFFTT.. PUHLEEEASSEE... Warlock showed up during the Infinity Gauntlet Saga. He was their again for the Infinity Wars, and once again for THE END. I was just pointing out, Warlock with the Heart Of The Universe would have wielded that power better, and from a neutral perspective. Lucifer invading the Marvel Universe will certainly catch the attention of the TOAA, and the shift of power will be noticed throughout the Marvel Universe. If LT cannot expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe, Warlock with The Heart Of The Universe will. He will step in and restore balance. He will purge Lucifer from the Marvel Universe.

That made absolutly no sense at all all it proves is that TOAA doesnt have total power over creation witch is the way it should be since there is more then one Multiverse in the Ominiverse with there own TOAA's

Originally posted by Mider
That made absolutly no sense at all all it proves is that TOAA doesnt have total power over creation witch is the way it should be since there is more then one Multiverse in the Ominiverse with there own TOAA's

Made no sense to you all right. This battle takes place in the Marvel Universe, and what didn't affect him before, will affect him here. The laws governing his powers in the DC Universe, are different in the Marvel Universe.

<<If LT cannot expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe, Warlock with The Heart Of The Universe will. He will step in and restore balance. He will purge Lucifer from the Marvel Universe.>>

it's possible. i happen to disagree.

<<The laws governing his powers in the DC Universe, are different in the Marvel Universe.>>

but we need to assume a uniformity for the debate. if lucifer came into marvel, his power would put him above LT (he is the second most powerful being in creation, below god. marvel has no 'god' so we assume toaa to be 'god', so he would be second only to toaa) he was/is god's first and MOST PERFECT creation. he is supreme unto himself SAVE GOD!! hotu is NOT god. it is an aspect of god's power. NOT god, and not wielded by god. and you're trying to tell me some artifact wielded by adam frickin' warlock is going to defeat him?? one thing in creation can defeat lucifer - god. not 'part' of god. not an ASPECT of god's might used by someone NOT god. GOD. lucifer existed in the nothingness before the multiverse, and his fall will come at GOD'S hands when GOD decrees creation is to end. and as much luv as warlock gets on this forum, i don't THINK he's god . . . honestly, it is aborrhent to imagine an artifact able to undo something like lucifer.

<<You can't understand it, it's all good I know it's hard sometimes.>>

BWHAHAHAHAH . . . glad i have you to point these tough concepts out to me though, kg. and i know you can certainly relate to my troubles. considering the fact that you have SEEN, the scans of thor beating the living crap out of glads, have READ and HELD the book where glads ADMITS thor is too tough for him, and STILL refuse to accept thor is superior to glads, well, you'll understand if i'm sort of glad to have you on THEIR side and not mine in any debate . . . and i know, i know, glads beats thor, hotu AND lucifer . . .

heheh.

and yes, it IS all good.

Originally posted by leonidas

BWHAHAHAHAH . . . glad i have you to point these tough concepts out to me though, kg. and i know you can certainly relate to my troubles. considering the fact that you have SEEN, the scans of thor beating the living crap out of glads, have READ and HELD the book where glads ADMITS thor is too tough for him, and STILL refuse to accept thor is superior to glads, well, you'll understand if i'm sort of glad to have you on THEIR side and not mine in any debate . . . and i know, i know, glads beats thor, hotu AND lucifer . . .

heheh.

and yes, it IS all good.
don't be mad my friend.

Thor, Thor girl and company defeated Gladiator.

And yes Thor can match Gladiator if he chooses to move at 100X light speed. read the forum rules.

and what happend before no one interfered? Thor got his ass K.O'ed

Gladiator was never K.O'ed read the end he is standing

keep trying tho

Originally posted by leonidas
<<If LT cannot expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe, Warlock with The Heart Of The Universe will. He will step in and restore balance. He will purge Lucifer from the Marvel Universe.>>

it's possible. i happen to disagree.

<<The laws governing his powers in the DC Universe, are different in the Marvel Universe.>>

but we need to assume a uniformity for the debate. if lucifer came into marvel, his power would put him above LT (he is the second most powerful being in creation, below god. marvel has no 'god' so we assume toaa to be 'god', so he would be second only to toaa) he was/is god's first and MOST PERFECT creation. he is supreme unto himself SAVE GOD!! hotu is NOT god. it is an aspect of god's power. NOT god, and not wielded by god. and you're trying to tell me some artifact wielded by adam frickin' warlock is going to defeat him?? one thing in creation can defeat lucifer - god. not 'part' of god. not an ASPECT of god's might used by someone NOT god. GOD. lucifer existed in the nothingness before the multiverse, and his fall will come at GOD'S hands when GOD decrees creation is to end. and as much luv as warlock gets on this forum, i don't THINK he's god . . . honestly, it is aborrhent to imagine an artifact able to undo something like lucifer.

I see where your going. Good points. Warlock with THOTU could very well be beneath Lucifer in terms of power and could probably be only stopped by the TOAA. I agree with you. Debates are made to poke holes into other's theories. Then again Warlock with THOTU could be equal in terms of power if comparing him to Lucifer. Lucifer is second to none except the Presence right? If Warlock possessed THOTU he could and is second to none except the TOAA, their powers could very well be similar or even a dead match. Theoretically of course. Lucifer could very well mow through all three guardians and get stopped by the TOAA himself, or he could also have trouble even entering the Marvel Universe with Thanos with the IG barring him from entering. The laws governing Marvel Universe could very well alter Lucifer's powers for better or worse. These are all my theories. It's good to hear someone expressing their own theories as well, instead of saying a couple words like LT stops him... Or Thanos stops him... Your a good debater leonidas. Better than Whirly

Originally posted by Sentry
I see where your going. Good points. Warlock with THOTU could very well be beneath Lucifer in terms of power and could probably be only stopped by the TOAA. I agree with you. Debates are made to poke holes into other's theories. Then again Warlock with THOTU could be equal in terms of power if comparing him to Lucifer. Lucifer is second to none except the Presence right? If Warlock possessed THOTU he could and is second to none except the TOAA, their powers could very well be similar or even a dead match. Theoretically of course. Lucifer could very well mow through all three guardians and get stopped by the TOAA himself, or he could also have trouble even entering the Marvel Universe with Thanos with the IG barring him from entering. The laws governing Marvel Universe could very well alter Lucifer's powers for better or worse. These are all my theories. It's good to hear someone expressing their own theories as well, instead of saying a couple words like LT stops him... Or Thanos stops him... Your a good debater leonidas. Better than Whirly
Second to God? What does that prove yes Luficer is strong, but he has his limits.

Lucifer can't even leave him realm without Permission.

Sentry do you read Lucifer comics?

leonidas says HOTU won't effect because Luficer is beyond the multiverse , but guess what Luficer has been effect

<<don't be mad my friend.>>

i rarely get mad. and we've gone back and forth too many times for me to get mad at YOU, especially. i am curious though - as soon as you think GLADIATOR, does 100x lightspeed AUTOMATICALLY come into your head? i'v never said it before but . . . 100x lightspeed is pure, unadulterated bull crapola. if you think you've 'seen' him, or it's been 'shown' that he's moving at 100x lightspeed, man, you're out of your mind. the notion is actually laughable. kind of like 'he can rip a star apart'. ahh, it's good to see your fanboyism is utterly unflappable though . . .

and thanks sentry. leaving aside the notion that he's outside the hotu's governance, he would still be second most powerful behind god, and all my other arguments still stand - even if you don't feel he is justifiably outside the realm of the hotu's influence. (which, as i said, is only theory.)

and your theories are equally well grounded - i said it's POSSIBLE hotu might stop him. the idea that they are equal is also a good (even logical) possibility. there's just something about a simple 'mortal' though, being able to wield 'the power of god' that doesn't sit well with me. so i simply choose to favor lucifer, and i've enumerated the reasons for my belief. agree. disagree. it's a fun debate either way!



<<Your a good debater leonidas. Better than Whirly>>

thanks, and i'll take that as a real compliment. but go easy on the whirlster, would ya. i mean, did you see that pic of himself he scanned?! poor guy just looks lucky to be alive!

heheh

Originally posted by leonidas
<<That’s not what you said before.>>

read the post. i said, 'setting that argument aside', because clearly you weren't getting that one, so i tried another one.

glads yaddayadda . . . consider it dropped. just wanted to rile you up. mission accomplished.

<<Lucifer does have limits, am not deny his power he is truly second to god>>

yes you are. you're denying it by saying the wielder of the hotu is greater than him. don't contradict yourself. either he IS second most powerful, or he ain't. i say he indeed is.

<<HOTU easily defeated LT, Eternity, and death>>

irrelevent to my position. to me, since hotu is below lucifer, he could do likewise if he chose, though that type of display is NOT something he would do. and you're right, he can't see the future - that is only for god. did it say somewhere thanos could see all the futures? or simply that he destroyed them?

and,

<<As for luficer do you read his comics or are you just saying he is beyond and won't be effect?>>

undeserving of a response.

you'll keep on believing in a ridiculously stupid artifact that any person/thing can pick up and wield and thereby proclaim themselves god, and i'll keep on believing in a character with 2000 years of history. god says lucifer is second only to Him, god decreed only He would/could end lucifer's eventual reign. i'll take the big g's word for it over yours or anyone else's. and with that, i'll consider this particular topic closed. always a pleasure kg.

lol sure you didn't read his limit

he is second to God

HOTU = God's power ( he is all there is read the end again if you forget)

look at lucifer's limits he is second to god doesn't make him = HOTU that's just stupid am sorry good try tho

All that proves is that TOAA is shit to The Presance if He expells all His power just by recreating the multiverse then yeah He is not as powerful as the Presance since it takes just two of His Archangels to create a multiverse with out expelling all of there power hell how do you know that if one did manage to create the multiverse He wouldnt expell all of His powers and thus be equal in power to marvels TOAA.

LT's top power is destroying a universe Lucifer can do that by snapping His fingers and creating one as well how is LT equal?

Originally posted by Mider
All that proves is that TOAA is shit to The Presance if He expells all His power just by recreating the multiverse then yeah He is not as powerful as the Presance since it takes just two of His Archangels to create a multiverse with out expelling all of there power hell how do you know that if one did manage to create the multiverse He wouldnt expell all of His powers and thus be equal in power to marvels TOAA.
? what

Originally posted by Mider
LT's top power is destroying a universe Lucifer can do that by snapping His fingers and creating one as well how is LT equal?
ask Leo he knows

LT is second to TOAA marvel has said this many times

Originally posted by Mider
LT's top power is destroying a universe Lucifer can do that by snapping His fingers and creating one as well how is LT equal?
LT is a guardian (protector)

Lucifer is a fallen angle

Why would LT destroy a multiverse that he is protecting where does it state his limits? Mider

Since TOAA did create the Marvel multiverse... And it's still around... wouldn't that mean it can do it without too many problems? TOAA has NEVER been shown in a comic, you can't judge its power.

This is to what Mider said, cuz ther have been like 5 posts in between... Seriously, I didn't take really long at all writing this...

And since more has been posted, the Marvel Encyclopedia is officially banned from LT arguments. And Surfer arguments. LT>1 Universe. Surfer's blasts>1 city. GOD!

TOAA was shown in Thanos The End and how do you know it took Him a day to create the multiverse it could very well have taken Him a while while The Presance is so powerful He just tells Archangel Micheal and Lucifer to do it for Him while He sits back and i have seen LT's limits first hand His powers seem to only slightly exceed Eternity's thats all.

Originally posted by Mider
TOAA was shown in Thanos The End and how do you know it took Him a day to create the multiverse it could very well have taken Him a while while The Presance is so powerful He just tells Archangel Micheal and Lucifer to do it for Him while He sits back and i have seen LT's limits first hand His powers seem to only slightly exceed Eternity's thats all.
what? TOAA has never been shown? did you read the end mider?

When did I say 1 day? 1 guy tells his wife to make him a sandwich, the other guy makes a sandwich himself. Does that make the 1st guys sandwich better?

Thanos was TOAA whatever TOAA could Thanos and thus you can judge TOAA's powers by what Thanos could do.

Originally posted by Mider
Thanos was TOAA whatever TOAA could Thanos and thus you can judge TOAA's powers by what Thanos could do.
No Thanos was all in the multiverse he was not god.

Like he was LT, he was eternity he was all

He was all of God's creation not god himself.

And Thanos with HOTU can do what he wants.

He was TOAA and anyway Thanos could not do whatever He wanted He could not fix armegedon and He could not servived recreating the mutliverse and fixing it.

Originally posted by Mider
He was TOAA and anyway Thanos could not do whatever He wanted He could not fix armegedon and He could not servived recreating the mutliverse and fixing it.
He was TOAA? lol where did you get this from? where does it state Thanos was God ( the GOD) read the ENd no where does it say Thanos is GOD.

"He could not fix armegedon and He could not servived recreating the mutliverse and fixing it."

He recreated Creation (multiverse) with a though) he can do what he likes

Originally posted by Mider
He was TOAA and anyway Thanos could not do whatever He wanted He could not fix armegedon and He could not servived recreating the mutliverse and fixing it.

Thanos w/ HOTU is not equal to TOAA. The One Above All is above all. He has no equal. He is God.

Originally posted by kgkg
It proves Lucifer can be mind controlled by god's creation.

Have, say, Warlock w/HOTU heavily damaged and down to 20% of his power. Then let him face Fenris and lets see if he can resist his mind control.

Originally posted by kgkg
-It's said that he can't exist his universe ( domain he rules)
- He has created soul , etc but he couldn't bring someone back to life because he had no power over it. ( not saying he can't bring people to life he can but he has failed before)
- His own power has been used against him

Err... Corrections:

- He can exist in his own multiverse. Why cant he exist in his own turf? He can go in and out of it as much as he wants.

- If a person/being is killed by Lucifer, he can bring it back to life. He cant bring it back if its not killed by him.

- His power was used against him due to sheer numbers and heaps of planning and effort. The Basanos was helped by Susano-O. So basically it was 73 against 1, since The Basanos is a deck of tarot cards and each card houses a powerful being, there are 72 cards in total. Plus they were helped by the strongest God of the Japanese pantheon. But even with that, they still needed prep to defeat Lucifer. And yeah, they suceeded, but do you guys know what happened when Lucifer came back for revenge?

Originally posted by Sentry
He won't fall for any of the same tricks he would use against omnipotent beings. Take a look at his enemies he battles normally without the IG. Man-Beast, Goddess, The Magus, Thanos, Eterntiy... Beyonder put it into words of how Warlock would be portrayed if Marvel went the religious route:

Warlock with THOTU has expelled good and evil from his body, and will not be convinced by anyone to give up that power. He would not fall for the same tricks he uses. Warlock is sort of the messiah of the Marvel Universe, for their was at least 3 times he along with a few other Marvel Powerhouses saved the Marvel Universe from destruction, with him being the vanguard. He's very underestimated in Marvel.

I still fail to see the point here. He battled poweful beings, yes, he also saved the Marvel Universe, yes. But then again when Lucifer tries to trick Warlock there would be no fighting here, theyre simply just gonna talk. So I dont know what would battling Man-Beast, Goddess, etc has something to do with this.

And its not like Lucifer will convince him to become evil. He would just talk to him, make him an offer(a tricky offer), thats all. So Warlock expelling good and evil outside his body is irrelevant either.

Umm yeah TOAA does have equals cause if He had no equals He would rule DCU too but He dont. Damn Marvel fanboys now you think that Marvel has jurisdiction over DC. Thanos WAS TOAA how many times to i have to explain it to you i mean i made it pretty clear why He was TOAA why TOAA is not like totally unstoppable why TOAA can die.

Im so sure that TOAA was gonna just let Thanos destroy the universe you guys think so inteligantly oh look Thanos is destroying my mutliverse ill just sit back and watch cartoons lalalalal.

Originally posted by Mider
Umm yeah TOAA does have equals cause if He had no equals He would rule DCU too but He dont. Damn Marvel fanboys now you think that Marvel has jurisdiction over DC. Thanos WAS TOAA how many times to i have to explain it to you i mean i made it pretty clear why He was TOAA why TOAA is not like totally unstoppable why TOAA can die.

Calm down.

TOAA is not in the DC Universe. TOAA has no equal, hence, his name.

Thanos with the Heart of the Universe was not TOAA.

TOAA is totally unstoppable, and he can not die.

Stop calling people fanboys.

Originally posted by Mider
Im so sure that TOAA was gonna just let Thanos destroy the universe you guys think so inteligantly oh look Thanos is destroying my mutliverse ill just sit back and watch cartoons lalalalal.

TOAA does not intervene. The multiverse wasn't destroyed, was it?

Um yeah it was didnt you see it go blank it was only blank a few pages but it was still blank and yeah that is total fanboyism there is a celestial called TOAA is He truly above all NO.

Thanos with HOTU is above Luicfer, not worth arguing. He restored or recreated Mutiverse with thought. Leave TOAA Celestal ,he is nothign to such pwoer as Lucifer ot HOTU. Only TOAA is above HOTU.
TOAA
HOTU
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Lucifer and likes of him

Originally posted by Synchro

I still fail to see the point here. He battled poweful beings, yes, he also saved the Marvel Universe, yes. But then again when Lucifer tries to trick Warlock there would be no fighting here, theyre simply just gonna talk. So I dont know what would battling Man-Beast, Goddess, etc has something to do with this.

And its not like Lucifer will convince him to become evil. He would just talk to him, make him an offer(a tricky offer), thats all. So Warlock expelling good and evil outside his body is irrelevant either.

Irrelevant? He could probably make Warlock an offer... But why would he take it. He has no lust for power, no greed, etc... Good and Evil expelled from his soul, what could he possibly want? He lives outside the Multi-Verse, and does not intervene until balanced is disturbed. Warlock and Lucifer will talk, and offers will be made, by both parties. Warlock could very well accept offers from Lucifer to step aside, or hand over the power of THOTU, etc... but odds of that are slim to none. Lucifer's a genius and is probably the most intelligent being in the universe, but bribing someone with no emotions, no desire for anything but balance is ludicrous... In theory. My theory only, to each their own. Very interesting theory Synchro. Good points. Good to hear opinions from both sides.

Originally posted by Sentry
Lucifer's a genius and is probably the most intelligent being in the universe, but bribing someone with no emotions, no desire for anything but balance is ludacris...

Ludacris is a rapper.

Thanks Cube, fixed my mistake.

Originally posted by Mider
Um yeah it was didnt you see it go blank it was only blank a few pages but it was still blank and yeah that is total fanboyism there is a celestial called TOAA is He truly above all NO.

I don't think The One Above All LT refers to is the Celestial.

He was gods first 'child' and has always been his favourate. He was chosen to be yahwehs successor when yahweh left the universe

TOOA never showed in End, only Adam and Death. And than Thanos restored everything, because of love actully.

lt is not second to TOAA, he max hes done in the marvel multiverse is destroy two or three universes simultaneously, THAS IT, THOTU does NOT give u the power of TOAA, no, it only gives u the power of ONE single multiverse, it has no power over the beyond realm, or ANYTHIN OUTSIDE THE MULTIVERSE, that power was enough to destroy and recreate the multiverse and anything in it, NOT THE BEYOND REALM, lucifer i might remind u has 50% of the power AT ANY given time to creat a multiverse from scratch including all the abstaracts and concepts, AND THAT IS WITHOUT EVEN SLIGHTLY gettin weaker or burning up his power, he can create anothermultiverse right after that one and another one right after that one, and so on, EVEN WHEN HE IS INSIDE THE MULTIVERSE, he is still beyond its laws and isnt a part of the multiverse, THOTU has power enough to create ONE SINGLE MULTIVERSE, and it CANNOT create another one simultaneously, hell it even has to destroy THAT ONE SINGLE multiverse to create another one, lucifer IS NOT bound by that limitation, and actully he CAN CREAT A WHOLE MULTIVERSE WITHOUT MICHEALS HELP, just by killing himself, which will cause the demiurgic explosion and destroy or create
another multiverse, he can then just bring himself back to life just by willing it as death{the endless} has no power over him{n this death is not like marvel's death, it is at omniversal level,}, so that AFECTIVELY puts lucifer above THOTU, i explained this before too, and as far as that thing with fenris goes, that was fenris taking ADVANTAGE of lucifer, fenris is not more powerful than lucifer, he just exploited certain things to take over lucifer, {kinda like galactus was taken advantage of by surfer when he was not payin attention and was defeated}, fenris doesnt have as much power as lucifer, bu he used his cunning, and let me also remind people that the guns given to saint of killers were a creation of god, HELL THEY WERE GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD, BUT he used those same guns to KILL GOD, so that creation of god argument agaisnt lucifer is pretty weak, and lucifer has goten the best of GOD many times, by usin his intelligence.

okay, so here's 2 fundamental problems we have:

<<Which should make LT = Lucifer>>

and

<<HOTU = God's power ( he is all there is read the end again if you forget)>>

no and no. i said lucifer would need to be given EQUIVALENT status in marvel. that means he ALONE is second. LT gets bumped to third.
and hotu is NOT equal to god. how the hell could THAT be possible?? god would put all his power into something and let any numb-nut like thanos or warlock walk along and grab it so he can be god?? and you said MY idea was stupid?? lucifer is the annointed, decreed second to god. some others have done better at outlining his powers and 'limits' than i have done.

and once again, kg, i shall sleep well in the knowledge that i am on the side of right.

lol, go read my post again, ur not makin any sense here fromlogic, only sayin how CAN THAT N THIS BE POSSIBLE, i already explained now it IS possible, n TOAA{GOD} , did NOT put all his power into THOTU, TOAA only put the power of ONE SINGULAR multiverse in it, not anythin beyond that and not the beyond realm.{TOAA created the beyond realm}

um, leon, you are you talking to? i'm on YOUR side. my post was meant for kg. i couldn't agree more with what you said. (and i made some of the saem points earlier on in the discussion) you're one of the ones i meant when i said you explained lucifer's abilities better than i did . . .

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lt is not second to TOAA, he max hes done in the marvel multiverse is destroy two or three universes simultaneously, THAS IT, THOTU does NOT give u the power of TOAA, no, it only gives u the power of ONE single multiverse, it has no power over the beyond realm, or ANYTHIN OUTSIDE THE MULTIVERSE, that power was enough to destroy and recreate the multiverse and anything in it, NOT THE BEYOND REALM, lucifer i might remind u has 50% of the power AT ANY given time to creat a multiverse from scratch including all the abstaracts and concepts, AND THAT IS WITHOUT EVEN SLIGHTLY gettin weaker or burning up his power, he can create anothermultiverse right after that one and another one right after that one, and so on, EVEN WHEN HE IS INSIDE THE MULTIVERSE, he is still beyond its laws and isnt a part of the multiverse, THOTU has power enough to create ONE SINGLE MULTIVERSE, and it CANNOT create another one simultaneously, hell it even has to destroy THAT ONE SINGLE multiverse to create another one, lucifer IS NOT bound by that limitation, and actully he CAN CREAT A WHOLE MULTIVERSE WITHOUT MICHEALS HELP, just by killing himself, which will cause the demiurgic explosion and destroy or create
another multiverse, he can then just bring himself back to life just by willing it as death{the endless} has no power over him{n this death is not like marvel's death, it is at omniversal level,}, so that AFECTIVELY puts lucifer above THOTU, i explained this before too, and as far as that thing with fenris goes, that was fenris taking ADVANTAGE of lucifer, fenris is not more powerful than lucifer, he just exploited certain things to take over lucifer, {kinda like galactus was taken advantage of by surfer when he was not payin attention and was defeated}, fenris doesnt have as much power as lucifer, bu he used his cunning, and let me also remind people that the guns given to saint of killers were a creation of god, HELL THEY WERE GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD, BUT he used those same guns to KILL GOD, so that creation of god argument agaisnt lucifer is pretty weak, and lucifer has goten the best of GOD many times, by usin his intelligence.

This is one sentence.

Thanos erased the entire multiverse.

Just how many multiverses are there? This sounds like speculation.

How can Lucifer kill himself? Why would The Presence need a sucessor?

When did the Silver Surfer defeat Galactus?

Originally posted by leonidas
okay, so here's 2 fundamental problems we have:

<<Which should make LT = Lucifer>>

and

<<HOTU = God's power ( he is all there is read the end again if you forget)>>

no and no. i said lucifer would need to be given EQUIVALENT status in marvel. that means he ALONE is second. LT gets bumped to third.
and hotu is NOT equal to god. how the hell could THAT be possible?? god would put all his power into something and let any numb-nut like thanos or warlock walk along and grab it so he can be god?? and you said MY idea was stupid?? lucifer is the annointed, decreed second to god. some others have done better at outlining his powers and 'limits' than i have done.

and once again, kg, i shall sleep well in the knowledge that i am on the side of right.


no , no how do you know all you going by is

He is second to God so he can't be beat.

Nice logic there leo lol

go read lucifer vs LT to see both sides.

Originally posted by Synchro

How about no, he can't leave his (universe) multiverse without letter of transit.


No actually Lucifer can bring anyone back to life; he failed to bring back Elaine Belloc because her soul was basined to Mansions of Silence which he had no power to bring her back. But usually he can bring back anyone.



Still happened didn't it? Leo said Lucifer can't be effect well he can that's the only point this is proving


My point is HOTU was all of gods creation which is > God's one creation

After all Michel is also =< Lucifer

<<He is second to God so he can't be beat.
Nice logic there leo>>

er, if god is first (and i presume you're not debating this), then . . . wouldn't it necessarily follow that the person who is second in power would not be able to be defeated by anyone BESIDES god? and again, you're confusing the term EQUIVALENT. in dc, he is second most powerful, so, to be equivalent, he would be second most powerful in marvel - hence above LT.

he;s a scenario is see:

thanos is standing in front of lucifer and says - i'm going to destroy you. he blasts him and wipes out all the multiverse. lucifer is still standing there, or perhaps he is turned to dust and reforms himself and says - 'try as you will - god himself created me, and only god hmself can destroy me'. his essence has existed before the mulitverse, and will exist after it is destroyed. perhaps he doesn't have the RAW POWER of the hotu, but as i tried explaining earlier (and shifted arguments because you didn't seem to be getting it, kg), i believe he is outside hotu's purview. in that same regard, LT would hold no power over him. he is SECOND ONLY TO GOD. not second only to god with the exception of LT and wielder of hotu or hotu power. SECOND TO GOD AND GOD ALONE. getting into michael will only cause further debate so i'll leave it at that.

i truly don't see why you are having so much trouble getting that.

Originally posted by leonidas



Well in Marvel LT is Second to god? Agree? He is beyond death? Agree?

How was he defeated? Because HOTU was, LT? Agree?

All this is (from the END)

HOTU can't kill Lucifer because he is beyond death, but so is LT.

When is the last time have you seen LT die or defeated? HOTU is the only one.

HOTU didn’t really kill LT , because LT was HOTU get it? LT can’t die just like Lucifer


i dig that

Yes true I don't believe HOTU can kill Lucifer he has survived the worst attacks imaginable.

Like you said both of there powers work in Marvel/ DC

But in marvel HOTU is all of Gods creation? Agree?

There are other ways of defeating Lucifer, killing him is out of the question just like you can't kill the LT.

But HOTU managed to suck LT, and everything, because he was everything

And how is Lucifer > LT? LT has never lost either (except HOTU)
LT vs Lucifer lots of argument go check it out

hey leo your from canada ?

actually kg, i agree with a lot of what you said. we could debate LT and lucifer forever. i say lucifer (i did check some of the thread, by the way - some good points for both) because as i said, he was first and he is destined to actually replace god. LT seems to serve another purpose. you're right both have never been defeated. i was saying he's second in dc, so to keep his place in marvel equal, he would be second there as well. debatable. OBVIOUSLY!

and yep, i'm a proud canuck. what's that got to do with anything, eh? you wanna make something of it??! heheh

i'm sure we'll go round and round again kg. you are a persistent sumbitch. and i mean that in a good way.

later

Can anyone explain to me why God would need a sucessor?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Can anyone explain to me why God would need a sucessor?
Who knows, why would god create the multiverse? , anything?

It's beyond mortal comprehension

ohh that sound so corny

Originally posted by leonidas
actually kg, i agree with a lot of what you said. we could debate LT and lucifer forever. i say lucifer (i did check some of the thread, by the way - some good points for both) because as i said, he was first and he is destined to actually replace god. LT seems to serve another purpose. you're right both have never been defeated. i was saying he's second in dc, so to keep his place in marvel equal, he would be second there as well. debatable. OBVIOUSLY!

and yep, i'm a proud canuck. what's that got to do with anything, eh? you wanna make something of it??! heheh

i'm sure we'll go round and round again kg. you are a persistent sumbitch. and i mean that in a good way.

later

go canucks

Originally posted by kgkg
Who knows, why would god create the multiverse? , anything?

It's beyond mortal comprehension

ohh that sound so corny

Is he going to stop being God, or die some day?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Is he going to stop being God, or die some day?
What is god doing? does he watch TV?

Originally posted by kgkg
What is god doing? does he watch TV?

Why the hell would God need a TV?

Hey, TV is fun. If a rich guy can watch a hobo play guitar, why can't God watch the puny mortals for amusement?

<<Is he going to stop being God, or die some day? >>

maybe he just gets tired of knowing everything and being all-powerful? i mean, without any challenge, wouldn't life get a bit boring? sitting around, listening to the angels tell you how great you are all day would be fun for a few billion years, but it's gotta start to grate eventually, don't it?

heheh

TOAA did not create the beyonder realm and if you have proof of this please share with us, PROOF ACTUAL PROOF not assumptions TOAA has power over ONE multiverse not the omniverse man you people need help TOAA is not more powerful then The Presance get it through your heads.

Originally posted by Mider
TOAA did not create the beyonder realm and if you have proof of this please share with us, PROOF ACTUAL PROOF not assumptions TOAA has power over ONE multiverse not the omniverse man you people need help TOAA is not more powerful then The Presance get it through your heads.

I don't think the Beyonder Realm exists. I believe it was retconned.

How many multiverses are there?

Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I don't think the Beyonder Realm exists. I believe it was retconned.

How many multiverses are there?

Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?

Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.

cube asketh: <<Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?>>

sentry respondeth: <<Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.>>

to which leo replies: wtf??! mider said it then asked WHO said it??! hmmmm . . .

to be fair, i don't recall the argument of toaa v presence coming up either. mider, for the sake of this discussion, we were simply agreeing to assume they were basically the same for the sake of equivalent hierarchies.

Well i think that Lucifer Morningstar would win im not saying that with raw power He could win but i dont think that even TOAA can destroy Him.

Originally posted by leonidas
cube asketh: <<Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?>>

sentry respondeth: <<Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.>>

to which leo replies: wtf??! mider said it then asked WHO said it??! hmmmm . . .

to be fair, i don't recall the argument of toaa v presence coming up either. mider, for the sake of this discussion, we were simply agreeing to assume they were basically the same for the sake of equivalent hierarchies.

Mider does think Presence > TOAA.

Yup and ive given you all reasons why. TOAA expells all Its powers to recreate the multiverse like He did when Thanos was TOAA in Thanos: The End but The Presance just creates two angels very powerful ones at that and says recreate the multiverse and thats it The Presance sits back watching while TOAA kills it self recreating the Multiverse.

Originally posted by Mider
Yup and ive given you all reasons why. TOAA expells all Its powers to recreate the multiverse like He did when Thanos was TOAA in Thanos: The End but The Presance just creates two angels very powerful ones at that and says recreate the multiverse and thats it The Presance sits back watching while TOAA kills it self recreating the Multiverse.

How do you know that TOAA expels all of his power in The End? Thanos was not TOAA in The End. The wielder of the Heart of the Universe is not TOAA, nor is it equal to TOAA. You're basing that off of opinion and nothing more. TOAA has never been seen, and it has never been challenged. The Presence has.

Originally posted by leonidas
cube asketh: <<Who said that TOAA was above the Presence, or vice versa?>>

sentry respondeth: <<Mider said it. In his mind the TOAA is below the presence. That's fine. To each their own.>>

to which leo replies: wtf??! mider said it then asked WHO said it??! hmmmm . . .

to be fair, i don't recall the argument of toaa v presence coming up either. mider, for the sake of this discussion, we were simply agreeing to assume they were basically the same for the sake of equivalent hierarchies.




Originally posted by Mider
All that proves is that TOAA is shit to The Presance if He expells all His power just by recreating the multiverse then yeah He is not as powerful as the Presance since it takes just two of His Archangels to create a multiverse with out expelling all of there power hell how do you know that if one did manage to create the multiverse He wouldnt expell all of His powers and thus be equal in power to marvels TOAA.

Originally posted by Mider
if you ask me The Presance could defeat TOAA thats pretty stupid to assume no one can defeat TOAA so now what DC has to make sure its Characters are not as powerful as TOAA thats not even logical.

Mider says it in his own words. According to him, TOAA ain't sh!t to Presence. Imo, their are equal. One ruler for each universe.

Presence rules DC...

TOAA rules Marvel...

Presence = TOAA

TOAA > Lucifer

Lucifer steps into the Marvel Universe, his powers could be altered for better or worse. These are just theories.

But this theory: Presence = TOAA Is logical.

Cosmic Cube your just making assumptions on THOTU you dont even know if it was or wasnt as powerful as TOAA ive already explaind to you why TOAA would give Thanos His powers and place and yup i dont think that TOAA can defeate The Presance.

Originally posted by Mider
Cosmic Cube your just making assumptions on THOTU you dont even know if it was or wasnt as powerful as TOAA ive already explaind to you why TOAA would give Thanos His powers and place and yup i dont think that TOAA can defeate The Presance.
Assumptions? No

LT, other cosmic entities has said the highest power is GOD ( TOAA)

in the end HOTU is not god (what assumptions are you talking about?)

HOTU is energy (not a living think)

TOAA has never been shown, or have been seen talking.

DC presence talks to his angle and takes actions


Presence > TAOO? LMAO

Originally posted by Synchro
Well, to each his own, I guess. I was just trying to have you people consider it. If you still dont believe it, then fine. All Im trying to say is its still possible. Anyway, I would have love to continue our discussion Sentry, but I guess thats enough for the moment. Anytime you wanna go at it again, just tell me.

Also, TOAA = The Presence

That's what I'm saying. I like keeping an open mind. Anytime you want to debate, I'm all for it. Sure I'll let you know when your wrong. LOL! Just kidding. But seriously your a good debater.

Also, TOAA = Presence I agree with you.

Originally posted by Synchro
Well, to each his own, I guess. I was just trying to have you people consider it. If you still dont believe it, then fine. All Im trying to say is its still possible. Anyway, I would have love to continue our discussion Sentry, but I guess thats enough for the moment. Anytime you wanna go at it again, just tell me.



Lucifer cannot, in any way, create a multiverse on his own. Lucifer doesnt have the Demiurgic Energy either. Only Michael was bestowed of it. The Demiurgic Energy just creates the MATTER which will be used to create the multiverse. After that, its Lucifer's turn by shaping that matter into suns, stars, planets, etc. Again, neither can create a multiverse without the other. It was explained MANY times in Lucifer. Read Lucifer #13 and #26

And no, Lucifer didnt get the best of The Presence many times. He got the best of him just ONCE by hiding his intentions of creating a multiverse of his own, thats it.

kgkg:

1. Your confusing Lucifer’s Multiverse to Presence’s Multiverse. The one that Lucifer needs permission to get out of is THE PRESENCE’s Multiverse, not his own Multiverse. He needed the letter of passage to allow him to leave creation(Presence Multiverse) and create a Multiverse of his own.

2. Again, Lucifer cannot bring the dead back to life if he didn’t kill it. What happened to Elaine only supports what I said. Elaine offered her life to Lucifer so that Lucifer would have additional energy in him. So Lucifer killed her and promised that she will be back. After disposing of the Basanos and Susano-O(in his mortal form btw) he went to the Mansion of Silence and found Elaine's soul there, but Elaine refused to be resurrected and chose instead to be the Guardian Angel of Lucifer's Cosmos.

Also, read Lucifer #5 when Lucifer offered Musubi(the assassin of the Japanese Gods) life after death if she would allow Lucifer to kill her.

Also, Lucifer has power over the Mansion of Silence. He actually destroyed it and the countless souls it contain when he retrieved Elaine's soul.

3. Ok.



I know. But the problem here is, if you put anyone w/HOTU on the same position as Lucifer, the result will be the same: They will be mind controlled by Fenris. See, HOTU may be all of TOAA's creation, Fenris might not be able to mind control it, but the problem is it cant act on his own. It needs someone to use its power. And ofcourse that someone is also God's creation, right? That is why Fenris mind controling Lucifer is irrelevent because anyone will be mind controlled by Fenris if you also put them on Lucifer's position, and that includes anyone w/HOTU.

And for those who are saying that Presence appointed Lucifer his successor, Give me proof about that. Again, The Presence left without ANYONE knowing, including Michael and Lucifer. How can he appoint them if thats the case.

Also, TOAA = The Presence
Well said

you do read Lucifer comics, some people are just saying bullshit.

I just wrote few limitations of Lucifer and things that shows he can be effected that’s all I was trying to prove to Leo.

As for why Elaine Belloc couldn’t be resurrect wasn’t it because it was Mansions of Silence, and that’s not where soul normal goes (that what I understood from reading it)

As for he can destroying (Mansions) that’s true but he couldn’t enter without destroying it.

Again has nothing to do it debate ( I have already shown he can be effected and has limits) – to leo

Anyways back to it

Fenris is god's creation, if Fenris was in marvel wouldn't that make Fenris part of HOTU?
Marvel does have Fenris (or similar being) – Fenris is destruction like Chaos , Entropy
Marvel counter parts where him ( Fenris was more powerful of course but same thing)


As for TOAA = Presence of course

Props to KGKG, leonidas, Synchro for the last few pages of this thread. You guys know your stuff.

i believe i heard someone say that it happened in Lucifer #40, Michael and Lucifer peered into Gods thoughts who would be his successor, he sorta told Michael he was not up to the job, making Michael pissed and he went straight to The Silver City to have it out with The Presence, when he got there and went in the Thrown Room he found it was empty, Michael stayed in theThrown Room for awhile thinking everything over, and when he left the Thrown Room there was Angels outside wondering why he wasnt casted out of Heaven, Michael then told them "The Primum Mobile is empty. God has departed this place. Forever."

Originally posted by Sentry
That's what I'm saying. I like keeping an open mind. Anytime you want to debate, I'm all for it. Sure I'll let you know when your wrong. LOL! Just kidding. But seriously your a good debater.

Tnx. Same to you.

Originally posted by kgkg As for why Elaine Belloc couldn’t be resurrect wasn’t it because it was Mansions of Silence, and that’s not where soul normal goes (that what I understood from reading it)

As for he can destroying (Mansions) that’s true but he couldn’t enter without destroying it.

Again has nothing to do it debate ( I have already shown he can be effected and has limits) – to leo

Anyways back to it

Fenris is god's creation, if Fenris was in marvel wouldn't that make Fenris part of HOTU?
Marvel does have Fenris (or similar being) – Fenris is destruction like Chaos , Entropy
Marvel counter parts where him ( Fenris was more powerful of course but same thing)

Yes your right, normal souls dont go the Mansions of Silence. The souls that go there are the Angels, and other "special" souls. But then again, Lucifer is.......Lucifer. As what he has shown in the comic he can resurrect anyone he kills wherever that soul goes.

As far as destroying the Mansions of Silence goes, he destroyed it AFTER he got Elaines soul(otherwise, Elaine's soul wouldve been destroyed too if Lucifer destroyed it before entering).

About Fenris and HOTU. Well, as I said, Fenris cant mind control HOTU. But the problem is the one using it. Because, most likely, the one using it is a being and also TOAA's creation. And that is where Fenris can take advantage from: by mind controlling the one using HOTU, making HOTU useless in the process(remember, this is on the condition that the one w/HOTU is heavily damaged and down to 20% of his power before their encounter with the wolf).

Originally posted by kevdude i believe i heard someone say that it happened in Lucifer #40, Michael and Lucifer peered into Gods thoughts who would be his successor, he sorta told Michael he was not up to the job, making Michael pissed and he went straight to The Silver City to have it out with The Presence, when he got there and went in the Thrown Room he found it was empty, Michael stayed in theThrown Room for awhile thinking everything over, and when he left the Thrown Room there was Angels outside wondering why he wasnt casted out of Heaven, Michael then told them "The Primum Mobile is empty. God has departed this place. Forever."

Hmm...... I have to check it out.

All in all i say Lucifer wins why did you make this thread if you knew He wouldnt win if you so belive?

Originally posted by Mider
All in all i say Lucifer wins why did you make this thread if you knew He wouldnt win if you so belive?

Maybe to prove a point, and spark debate? Most people have an idea of who would win when they make a thread.

Prove a point what point is that? I would make threads against LT cause apprently NO ONE IN COMICS can beat Him so yeah that made sense to prove that He could be defeated or same with Silver Surfer and Superman. What point did you want to make? I dont belive that Lucifer is invincible He can be defeated by The Presance, but TOAA i just dont belive He is strong enough to ddefeat The Presance and i dont think He is strong enough to destroy Lucifer Morningstar.

Originally posted by Mider
Prove a point what point is that? I would make threads against LT cause apprently NO ONE IN COMICS can beat Him so yeah that made sense to prove that He could be defeated or same with Silver Surfer and Superman. What point did you want to make? I dont belive that Lucifer is invincible He can be defeated by The Presance, but TOAA i just dont belive He is strong enough to ddefeat The Presance and i dont think He is strong enough to destroy Lucifer Morningstar.

These aren't even really fights. They are power rankings. Everyone but you believes that TOAA and The Presence are equal.

umm Mider TOAA created the entire Marvel Mutliverse on his own, Lucifer cant create a Multiverse without Michael, the only 1 that knows who TOAA is, is the Living Tribunal, not even the Beyonder knows who TOAA is. TOAA would win against Lucifer, he is GOD in Marvel, and nobody ever beats God. but "IF" TOAA is not The Presence then it must be a part of Yahweh that is split from him that created the Marvel Multiverse, and even then TOAA still wins

Umm no i dont belive that sorry i have read comics that seem to rank TOAA's powers ive told you why. In my view THOTU is the total power of TOAA and Thanos had to kill Himself in order to recreate the multiverse fixing it and in that comic to me and it is pretty logical Thanos was TOAA but The Presance just says hay Micheal Lucifer go make a multiverse and it gets down and if He wanted to He is more powerful then both combined He would just snap His fingers and recreate the multiverse.

Originally posted by Mider
In my view THOTU is the total power of TOAA and Thanos had to kill Himself in order to recreate the multiverse fixing it and in that comic to me and it is pretty logical Thanos was TOAA

...And in your view alone. No one agrees with you.

Yeah and most people think SS is invincible shows how much you all know.

Originally posted by Mider
Umm no i dont belive that sorry i have read comics that seem to rank TOAA's powers ive told you why. In my view THOTU is the total power of TOAA and Thanos had to kill Himself in order to recreate the multiverse fixing it and in that comic to me and it is pretty logical Thanos was TOAA but The Presance just says hay Micheal Lucifer go make a multiverse and it gets down and if He wanted to He is more powerful then both combined He would just snap His fingers and recreate the multiverse.

Can you give us references about TOAA killing himself just create the Multiverse? What comic and issue was it?

Coz, if you think about it Mider. It doesnt make sense. If TOAA sacrificed his life to create the multiverse, then why does LT refer to TOAA as the one he serves? I mean if LT said that, wouldnt it indicate that TOAA is not dead?

................................you dont listen or what? TOAA ALLOWED HIS POWERS TO BE USERPED BY THANOS THE MAD TITAN THUS THANOS WOULD HAVE TO DIE INSTEAD OF TOAA HIMSELF IF YOU READ THANOS THE END THANOS SAYS THAT THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE WAS BAIT HE SAYS IT WAS NOTHING BUT A CRUEL JOKE THAT TOAA TRICKED HIM INTO TAKING ITS PLACE IN ORDER SO THAT TOAA DID NOT HAVE TO DIE AFTER THANOS DIED CAUSE HE DRAINED OFF HIS POWERS RECREATING THE MULTIVERSE I WOULD THINK TOAA CAME BACK TO HIS POST AS TOAA.

Can someone confirm/correct what Mider said?(preferrably a Marvel fan) Is this true?

That's what Thanos said, right after he saw that the universe was coming aprt.

Thanos was chosen by because of his will Warlock said. He was then rewarded with what he so desired in the past. Death's embrace. Ironic, that one of Marvel's greatest villains was chosen by God to be the savior of the Marvel Universe.. Warlock referred to "HE" and I'm assuming it's the TOAA. It seemed like kind of a test for the Titan. Thanos did say:



It was some kind of trap for Thanos. But if the TOAA was really threatened, by any being or entity, he would solve it himself.

Then why didn't he? He needed a sacrifice, Thanos was TOAA, but he had to sacrifice himself to restore creation wich was undoing itself.

Your just giving assumptions about TOAA being more powerful you have no actual proof that TOAA and THOTU didnt have the same exact power its just assumptions and theroes im dealing in facts.