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Okay, I know you're all gonna jump right in and say YES THEY ARE! But I have more to say here than just addressing wether they are just books. I took a reading class (Yes, my school offered a class that was just reading ) and while I took it I would occassionally bring in a manga to read during our class time. The teacher asked if I was journaling the books, I told him no because they don't really count as books.

We got into a discussion about how the library was starting to get manga (both the school and the public library), and how they said they were books. But then again they are trying their best to get kids to read, so they'll stoop to any low.

So should I have counted my manga as books I read? We were doing it according to pages read. But manga doesn't really have all that many words to read. In other words, should they be counted as "novels" in reality?

mangas are made out of paper.

mangas are numbered, spined, etc like any other book.

therefore, you cannot deny the fact that they are books. in the end what difference does it make wether the book you are reading is graphic heavy or not? In fact mangas can somewhat tell a story better than a manga can.

YES THEY ARE!

Ummm... sorry, I couldn't resist. I'd say it is a book.

But would you take it to school and do a book report on it?

If it is...should I try this question in the book discussion forum? *questioning look*

no i dont think its fine where it is.

as for reporting on it why not? after all they have made novels on the video game halo where a nice 60% of the book happens in the game.

if you have enough imagination and writing skill you can easily write a report on it.

I don't think you're understanding the concept here...*sigh*

But the HALO books have words all through the book. No pics except for the covers. I read the halo books by the way. Only the one about being on HALO was in the game. The 1st and the 3rd were not based off the game story completely..they were new stories..

Anyway...new imput!! Anyone?

...no i dont think your understanding MY concept. the halo books and what your asking for is the same thing!

NO it is not!

Manga is like reading at a 1st grade level! Do you remember reading your picture books back then? *raises eyebrow*

Reading HALO is like reading at a 6th grade level! OMG! NO MORE PICTURES! All words, and you have to use your imagination to figure out what things look like or how something is!!

*sigh*

I really would like new imput.

your just being difficult and closed minded about this. it IS the same thing.

1st of all manga requires some skill to read to understand some of the plot and some words that may be thrown around. but in any case the skill of reading required is irrelevent. if i wanted to i could write a 6 page essay/report/whatever on the cat in the hat.

2nd like i said before they have created novels on mere gameplay. its not that hard to take what you see and put it into words. if you cannot do this then you must lack horribly in writing skills.

I'm giving up on you. You're the one not understanding here. I get what you're meaning.

You're saying lie to the teacher and write a freaking report on a manga by just filling in words for the pictures? I know how to write...*mutter*

I'm not in school any more. Lets compare manga to a real book though...lets say *thinks* Something everyone knows...

Tolkien, LOTR books. Those are real books. Written before the damned movies. Can you really compare your Love Hina manga books (Just using random manga..) to something like that?

I love reading my manga. I truely do. If I didnt' I wouldn't spend $10 a piece on them. But I wouldn't consider them real reading....

Originally posted by sai12
But would you take it to school and do a book report on it?

If it is...should I try this question in the book discussion forum? *questioning look*

Yeah, I was joking. You couldn't tell? Anyway, to answer the question "Are they books?" Yes, of coarse, they are. Graphic Novel still equals Novel.

Should you count them. No, of coarse you shouldn't. You answered your own question in the last post.



It would be unfair to count the Mangas IMO.

Personally, I would have just asked the teacher if I was that unsure about it.

I did. He said no...

But I wanted to see what you guys thought about this as well...

giving up? im just getting started!

no im not telling you to lie im telling you to shut up and stop whining about how you lack in writing since it seems to be too difficult for you to describe what is occuring in the manga into words.

yes i can compare my love hina books to the LOTR books. and do you wanna know why? BECAUSE THEYRE BOOKS (OMGWTFBRBBBQ!!1!1!11ONE)

now tell me...what "is" your definition of serious reading?

Serious reading has to have more words than pictures.

Manga is fun reading. Its not really reading. I mean you can read a manga in half an hour!! A real book should take longer than that.

And I told you already that I can write. I don't get where you get the idea that I have no writing skills at all. What you're saying is basically just off handed cheating. I could write a book report on a manga, seriously, but doesn't that seem a little low?

And just getting started huh? At least you like to argue...*rolls eyes*

that not true. serious reading should be defined from the plot and the conflicts that are implied. it should not be discarded just because th e plot is reliant on images rather than actual text.

now your just words in my mouth. i did not say you cant write i said you must be terrible at it

how is writing a report on it cheating? if you would just listen to me you would understand that a manga is just as good as any other text based book except slightly better since you can have a better understanding of what is going on.

and as for low no i wouldnt. i would be proud to write a novel on a game or novel. especially knowing all the money itll get me.

I'd have to argue that Manga is a book type. Manga can have very deep plots, the thoughs and words are expressed through text, while all motions are made through character's picture movements. It can take story reading to a very new and advanced level if done properly, and the reader takes the time to look deeply into the words, thoughts, and actions of the character. You have to look into the background, the characters, what they wear and how they move to come to a complete understanding of the plot. This can, in fact, be more difficult than reading a book, where all images are created in print, and you read them to understand the story. Whereas, if an artist creates a short subliminal message with his images, you may catch it, but not understand it yet, or if you don't notice things, you miss out on the plot. Just because there are less words, doesn't mean that the plot will be any less thick, nor the story any less good. The fact is, young children's picture books are just that, for children. Manga are written for people of many age groups, and therefore, the plots can and will be more advanced for older audiences.

Originally posted by Sarlock
I'd have to argue that Manga is a book type. Manga can have very deep plots, the thoughs and words are expressed through text, while all motions are made through character's picture movements. It can take story reading to a very new and advanced level if done properly, and the reader takes the time to look deeply into the words, thoughts, and actions of the character. You have to look into the background, the characters, what they wear and how they move to come to a complete understanding of the plot. This can, in fact, be more difficult than reading a book, where all images are created in print, and you read them to understand the story. Whereas, if an artist creates a short subliminal message with his images, you may catch it, but not understand it yet, or if you don't notice things, you miss out on the plot. Just because there are less words, doesn't mean that the plot will be any less thick, nor the story any less good. The fact is, young children's picture books are just that, for children. Manga are written for people of many age groups, and therefore, the plots can and will be more advanced for older audiences.

*glomp* I love you! I understand your reasoning. Now do you believe they should be trying to get kids to read by using manga instead? I do doubt very much that it improves on reading skills.

That depends on the Manga. I think it'd be very interesting to have manga written for very young children implimented into the school system. They improve observation a LOT more than most young children's books, so it would probably help in certain areas if the teachers pointed out certain things, and had the children look for things as the reading got more advanced. Then, at the time it normally does, go to books for pure reading. It might even improve the ammount of kids who actually READ on their own, seeing as Manga is a lot more interesting than picture books, a few might actually decide to read Manga occasionally. But, as for improving on reading skills, it doesn't do that a lot unless there's a lot of dialogue at a higher level, whereas to understand the plot, the person must pick up a dictionary (scary thought!). But that is a rarity. But, if you were to write journals or reports on it, and you had to look up certain mythologies that were refferenced, and read up on those mythologies to understand the symbolism used, it'd probably increase reading skill by a decent handful.

If it doesn't help reading skills, then why do kids start out reading picture books? I think it's a great way to help kids read, if they have trouble with a word or something they can use the images to help them figure it out.

Originally posted by Sarlock
I'd have to argue that Manga is a book type. Manga can have very deep plots, the thoughs and words are expressed through text, while all motions are made through character's picture movements. It can take story reading to a very new and advanced level if done properly, and the reader takes the time to look deeply into the words, thoughts, and actions of the character. You have to look into the background, the characters, what they wear and how they move to come to a complete understanding of the plot. This can, in fact, be more difficult than reading a book, where all images are created in print, and you read them to understand the story. Whereas, if an artist creates a short subliminal message with his images, you may catch it, but not understand it yet, or if you don't notice things, you miss out on the plot. Just because there are less words, doesn't mean that the plot will be any less thick, nor the story any less good. The fact is, young children's picture books are just that, for children. Manga are written for people of many age groups, and therefore, the plots can and will be more advanced for older audiences.

That was a great post.

Well, when you put it that way it does.

And lana, I mean. They're trying to get teens to read by doing this. They have the manga in the young adult section at the public library. And its at the high school library. That certainly is a different idea than picture books for 7 year olds.

Thank you Lana for the compliment. ^^

And yea, if we can get people to read more often, then it'll generally increase the intelligence of the poplulation, even if it's just reading a Manga, it's still excersizing the mind, which is something too many people neglect to do in this day and age.

Ok.. I been reading through this.. and I will say that Manga are books. but not the kind you should be able to do a report on. While longer, they basically boil down into a comic book.

A long comic book.

And just like everything pointed out about a manga, a comic can do the same things. But how many of you are Seriously going to do a book report on a comic book? and if you do how long will it be before you fail that class? and possibly have the teacher severely chide you..

They're ment to be read, and yes they may very well encourage reading, but they aren't a serious book to be read.

Originally posted by Scyphen
Ok.. I been reading through this.. and I will say that Manga are books. but not the kind you should be able to do a report on. While longer, they basically boil down into a comic book.

A long comic book.

And just like everything pointed out about a manga, a comic can do the same things. But how many of you are Seriously going to do a book report on a comic book? and if you do how long will be before you fail that class? and possibly have the teacher severely chide you..

They're ment to be read, and yes they may very well encourage reading, but they aren't a serious book to be read.

Actually, depending on the depth of the plot in the Manga, you could probably get a VERY good book report out of just ONE Manga. An even better one from a small series. Some of them contain many references to Mythologies, which can create many different depths of plot and symbolism within the story. This could create a very excellent book report if enough research was put into it. You could point out what different mythologies were referenced within the Manga, and point out what kind of messages this put in the story, how it was symbolic, or how it could change the meanings of different things in the Manga.

If you look at it like this, then you can definitely get a VERY good book report.

And probably fail the class once the teacher realizes what you read :P

there can be other uses of manga as well. take .hack//sign for example. that show is nothing but dialogue. but the events in the stroy are great for a report in a psychology class on character development.


Edit: for spelling(bear with me people its 4:00 in the morning where im at)

.hack//SIGN is an anime...

....

Originally posted by sai12
.hack//SIGN is an anime...

....

It's actually both Manga and Anime...

And as for your comment about getting failed. I could probably argue the point with most any teacher... Most of my teachers seem to like me and enjoy the fact that I debate about everything... Well, English teachers anyways... They tend to head Debate teams, and the like where I come from. So I have fun with it ^^


Edit: Replaced "kicked out" with "failed". Misread your post sai12, sorry.

Originally posted by Sarlock
Actually, depending on the depth of the plot in the Manga, you could probably get a VERY good book report out of just ONE Manga. An even better one from a small series. Some of them contain many references to Mythologies, which can create many different depths of plot and symbolism within the story. This could create a very excellent book report if enough research was put into it. You could point out what different mythologies were referenced within the Manga, and point out what kind of messages this put in the story, how it was symbolic, or how it could change the meanings of different things in the Manga.

If you look at it like this, then you can definitely get a VERY good book report.

Erm... you could still do that with a comic book too...

There is a manga of SIGN? All I've been able to find is Twilight Bracelet manga. *ponder*

Originally posted by Scyphen
Erm... you could still do that with a comic book too...

I never said Comics were any different from Manga. A Manga/Dojounshi(spelt that wrong I'm pretty sure), is just a Japanese comic book. Just the different styles and the fact that Manga tends to come in a larger book makes people say they're different. Which really isn't true, they do come in smaller volumes too (approximately the size of a normal comic), but multiple of those smaller volumes are placed into the larger manga books that we import, translate, and republish.

Edit: Yea, there's a manga of SIGN, it's harder to find, but I saw it a couple times at my local Comic/Manga shop.

*shrugs* then do it. just because its an american form of a manga doesnt make it any different. besides comics have a very long history of american pop culture.

Yes, but have you EVER heard anyone call a comic a book?

Originally posted by Sarlock
I never said Comics were any different from Manga. A Manga/Dojounshi(spelt that wrong I'm pretty sure), is just a Japanese comic book. Just the different styles and the fact that Manga tends to come in a larger book makes people say they're different. Which really isn't true, they do come in smaller volumes too (approximately the size of a normal comic), but multiple of those smaller volumes are placed into the larger manga books that we import, translate, and republish.

Ok, then. You see my point, and I'll give you your own about being able to make a valid report on them.

However, despite it all (and assume the teacher doesn't know you that well, or something to the point where you could argue your way into it being acceptable, as you can't always get your way) How many people are honestly going to accept any form of report/journal on a comic book, regardless of how ever deep it may be?

Sai12: "Yes, but have you EVER heard anyone call a comic a book?"

Response: Nope, and I don't expect to, my views are my own, and will not be taken lightly by the general public, no matter how well I can argue it. I just like debates, they're fun.

Scyphen: "Ok, then. You see my point, and I'll give you your own about being able to make a valid report on them.

However, despite it all (and assume the teacher doesn't know you that well, or something to the point where you could argue your way into it being acceptable, as you can't always get your way) How many people are honestly going to accept any form of report/journal on a comic book, reguardless of how ever deep it may be?"

Response:

Who knows, depends on the teacher, how well written the report/journal is, and whether or not it meets the criteria set by the teacher, and whether or not they were flexible. It would also depend on whether or not they enjoyed debating with students, and their willingness to open up to new styles of literature. I've also heard that they're changing the name "Comic Books" to "Graphic Novels", and giving them more credit in the literary world. So within a few years, maybe it will become the norm? Who's to say?

You also like arguing don't you? Just you have better way about it than Tranceduo.

You have valid points. I guess in your world...a manga/comic is a book. *shrug*

Originally posted by sai12
You also like arguing don't you? Just you have better way about it than Tranceduo.

You have valid points. I guess in your world...a manga/comic is a book. *shrug*

...




...whatever...

Originally posted by TrAnCeDuO
...




...whatever...

Sorry did I hurt your feelings?

That's what you get for saying I'm a terrible writer!! :'(

Originally posted by sai12
You also like arguing don't you? Just you have better way about it than Tranceduo.

You have valid points. I guess in your world...a manga/comic is a book. *shrug*

Each will always have his or her points of view. Debating is fun, and I'll state that my points are what I believe in, and my reasons for it. I don't expect to convert anyone, but I do like to see other people's points of view, and argue with them. It's fun to see how other people think, and it gives you a better understanding of who you're talking to at the same time.

Originally posted by sai12
Sorry did I hurt your feelings?

That's what you get for saying I'm a terrible writer!! :'(

true but most of the time you didnt bother to even think about the points i was making.

Well.. I think they've been throwing "graphic novel" around for a while..
but who knows.. years from now you may be correct about the concept of them.

I suppose some teachers would be flexible about it, possibly especially so if it was well done. Although the older ones, set in thier ways wouldn't be as much but sooner or later they'll retire and maybe the person who replaces them will be.

I got nothing.. so I concede to your points. Although, at this moment and the very near forseeable future, they wouldn't be very widely accepted. At least not without hefty debate.. heh..

I did think. And I thought you were just being dense....

thats funny coming from you

Hahahaha! *has a big laugh*

I think our discussion is over. I'll be happy to discuss this with someone else now :@

is someone running away?

Originally posted by Scyphen
Well.. I think they've been throwing "graphic novel" around for a while..
but who knows.. years from now you may be correct about the concept of them.

I suppose some teachers would be flexible about it, possibly especially so if it was well done. Although the older ones, set in thier ways wouldn't be as much but sooner or later they'll retire and maybe the person who replaces them will be.

I got nothing.. so I concede to your points. Although, at this moment and the very near forseeable future, they wouldn't be very widely accepted. At least not without hefty debate.. heh..

I thank you. This was a very fun debate. ^^ It's hard to find a place where debates don't turn into flame wars. I think I'll stick around and get a feel for this place. You guys held your ends very well. And I thank you for the fun debate. ^^

And as for without hefty debate. Most people won't concede even with it. But it's fun to do the debate anyways.

Am I running away?

No, I'm just through trying to point things out to you over and over. And you just say the same thing in response. Its useless.

I'm still not giving up on the fact that it isn't a true book. I don't care what you guys think. I've been an avid reader for years. I believe a book should have a plot structure, which manga do have, but they also have to express their thoughts through words. Using pictures is a cheap way of getting by. Its pretty yes, but it still doesn't make the reader think as much as they would while reading a novel.

In manga they paint the pictures for you, you don't have to imagine what is happening...its all right before you on the page.

So its still not a book....not in my books anyway

thats because i was trying to prove my point to you but you never accepted it. but your right. its useless. im out.

I understood your point and I argued back against your point. And you said your point over again...*shrug*

What am I to do then? *raises eyebrow*

Originally posted by Sarlock
I thank you. This was a very fun debate. ^^ It's hard to find a place where debates don't turn into flame wars. I think I'll stick around and get a feel for this place. You guys held your ends very well. And I thank you for the fun debate. ^^

And as for without hefty debate. Most people won't concede even with it. But it's fun to do the debate anyways.


Your welcome, I actually rather enjoyed it too. Too often debates just degenerate into flames..

And you do seem to like to debate, as well as have a knack for it. heh.

Despite it all I still have to agree with Sai.. in my head they have similariites but are different. (shrug)

Each has their own views, I concede to the fact that in how you view things, a Manga/Comic/Graphic Novel is not a book. I can't change that, and I've known it since we started discussing ^^ But I'm glad I got to understand your views, as I hope you understand mine.

Edit: For clarification purposes, this is posted to Sai12.

Oh we understand alright. I think its imprinted on our brains :P

i heard this mean old lady in the store say....
'this is our graphic novel secton. it's where teens who can read get books, cause they havve pretty pic tures.'
she looked at me the entire time as i sat on the floor reading with a giant AP biology textbook next to me.
how rude is that???????
GNs are too books. books with visual guides!


i wanted to hit the lady.

well. not books.......the new comic book. the old comic book was a magazine. and they called that a book.

thats not as bad as my friend she said "normol not normol"

Originally posted by yoko-sama
thats not as bad as my friend she said "normol not normol"
huh?
i meant can't read.

That is slightly rude. Hehe, but I understand where she was coming from *giggle*

sooooo sorry am just bored

as am i.
i wish everyone for my RP was on.

hi am yoko-sama am just ................... werd and vary into Inuyasha FMA.

Originally posted by yoko-sama
hi am yoko-sama am just ................... werd and vary into Inuyasha FMA.
huh?

HI AM NEW MY NIKNAME IS YOKO

Originally posted by yoko-sama
HI AM NEW MY NIKNAME IS YOKO

Find a new place to say that...this isn't an introduction thread!!

SORRY