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Im new, have me excused if this has been done before (have searched)

two ancient siths vs two of the most powerful Jedi's ever (both ROTS) and qui-gon jinn
who will pull this off?

i think the ancient siths are slightly overrated, so this will be closer than many thinks....or what?

Ancient Sith..

QGJ brings no real thing into this fight, Exar Kun and Naga Sadow are both incredibly powerful and even though I love Obi, I don't give him a chance in hell against Sadow. Exar would take on Mace and QGJ at the same time and still win. Or they could overwhelm them with force powers, the Ancient Sith outclass them.

I think Mace could be able to hold on against an of them, lets say exar, until someone helped either of them. Mace beated Sidious, which in fact is really strong, not very much weaker then Naga and Exar.
the question is therefore how obi and his former master would do against naga sadow.
i will give them a chance, when Obi performs his defensive form III (which is HARD to break through) Qui-gon might be able to do something....

Doubt it.

First of all Mace his fight against Sidious although nice and all did not impress me in a way to make me think Mace would stand a chance against an ancient Sith Lord. Especially not one with the skills or Exar Kun. Exar would smoke his ass. Naga Sadow is a hell of a lot better then Maul who also defeated QGJ and could surely do it, faster.

Obi Wan is his biggest problem but the style's of the two are completely different and they would not fight as well together as they did in TPM. Obi Wan would not be able to count on his former master for long. And Dooku easily takes care of Obi Wan in Rots by using the force. Naga Sadow is a lot more powerful then Dooku was and could do the same.

Good point with Dooku....but remember, obi beats anakin, who again beated dooku.
I also think you overrate the ancient siths compared to the "new ones"
exar kun is probably stronger than Sidious, but not that much. IF exar kun beated mace, it would take looooong time.

Naga sadow is for sure better than Maul, but also Obi-wan has grown a lot in strength since the fight with maul, and would kick maul's a$$ in ROTS. QGJ seems underrated to me, he was a master you must remember.

QGJ was a Master but he was not better then Obi was in ROTS... And if you saw the fight between Anakin and Dooku then you would realise that Dooku wasn't trying, if you read the EU books then you would know that Dooku wasn't allowed to kill Anakin. Sidious told him to take care of Obi Wan and just play with Anakin to make him angry and that if Dooku would somehow lose Sidious would stop Anakin. He didn't but Dooku didn't know that.

Sadow would be able to launch both Obi and QGJ in the air and play around with them. He would then join Exar with Mace, if Exar didn't already kill Mace by that time.

Exar alone would whip that @$$

sidious is no where in league with sadow. don't understand how you come up with sidious being slightly weaker than sadow, perhaps you don't know much about naga sadow but he'd through stars at his enemies for fun. do you see sidious doing that? no, you don't. if he could then there would've been no need for a death star.

no contest for the ancient sith. exar kun's light sabre abilities as well as naga's swordsmanship and terrible grasp of the dark side far out weigh mace and obi. i agree with fishy, qui-gon doesn't even have an effect here. if he couldn't take on darth maul what could he do against exar and naga? he'd just be a mosquito.

don't get me wrong i like obi wan, he's one of my favourite jedi but him an mace are walkin into the lion's den here.

i admire you all for your knowledge of SW, and fishy thanks for the information about anakin/obi wan - dooku fight, that makes the difference in favour of the ancient siths.
BUT, and there is a but, you all overrate the old lords of the sith, and how on earth would it help naga sadow to be able to throw stars in the middle of a duel?? the star would kill all 4 and make a tie!! lol

i also wonder if any of you can give some good, logic reasons for how the sith lords just have been weaker the last 4000 years. To me it seems more logic that new knowledge just would make them stronger....
of course you can say they had more experience at KOTOR-times, and thats true. But it doesn't make all the difference!!
Mace and obi wan are two of the most powerful jedi's ever, and would give exar kun and naga sadow one he11 of a fight.

obviously a star wouldn't be thrown at one so close so naga would die. but that's just an example how powerful naga sadow was. no way does sidious have such a power.

also naga sadow came from the golden empire of the sith. technology may have been more advanced in sidious' time than sadow's but the force remains the same. sadow became dark lord of the sith after marka ragnos and held power for quite some time. in a time where there were many more sith that would've been very happy to take that power from sadow. he wasn't the strongest sith ever but damn sure close to being one of the strongest.

i think you'll find that most people here will say that naga sadow is much stronger than sidious. if you don't know much about him then maybe you should read up on sadow.

Abominus is right... A star would have no use, but to be able to do something like that requires an amazing command of the force, and thats why its often said in threads like this. Of course it wouldn't make him win because he would die too, but he does have the ability something that others do not have. Quite amazing if you ask me.

And there a few reasons why Jedi are weaker in the movies

- Less actual combat training, they didn't have mayor wars for a thousand years and were not ready to fight one. They had no idea how to battle with other Jedi and Sith and would have suffered greatly at the hands of this people that did fight their entire life.

- After a thousand years of peace training methods get aimed more at peace keeping and deflecting blasters and shit like that instead of fighting like during the golden age of the Sith.

- The Sith are a lot weaker because of Bane his rule, with more Sith there were more to test yourself against and the strongest would always rule. Bane his rule could help secure the safety of a Sith Empire, but it Could also very well be its undoing because you only have toe worry about one opponent instead of a thousand and you become weaker because of that.

The biggest difference is basically the peace thing, less fighting means less training for war, less experience in war and all that crap. Thats why Ancients win a lot of the time from most PT and OT people, they grew up in wars. Always fought wars, always trained to kill or defeat other Jedi and Sith.

i forgot to mention also that kreia in KotoR II said to the exile that the force users currently (her time) were like children compared to the force users in the time of marka ragnos, naga sadow and tulak hord especially compared to his dueling abilities.

as fishy said the force users back then saw more war, more fighting and had experience in combat.

think of it this way, you have a martial artist that trains but never ever fights just practises technique, then you have a martial artist that not only trains but fights. the latter would be the winner.

of course i know that the star thing was an example, and maybe i don't know enough about naga sadow (but i know a bit though..)
abominus, you should also be a little careful about what you say. in combat, i don't think many would say that sadow is MUCH more powerful....

Brilliant arguments fishy, but im not totally convinced. As said, experience isnt all, and how do you know Mace, Obi wan and the rest of the jedi's didn't practice light saber/ light saber combat??

<<abominus, you should also be a little careful about what you say. in combat, i don't think many would say that sadow is MUCH more powerful....>>

i only comment if it is something i know, i don't need to be careful, i know, you obviously are not, you said you don't know much about naga sadow, so maybe you should be careful about what you say.

don't mean to sound rude but sounded like you were taking a shot at me

Originally posted by sasee tiin
i also wonder if any of you can give some good, logic reasons for how the sith lords just have been weaker the last 4000 years. To me it seems more logic that new knowledge just would make them stronger....


Think about the Sith philosophy. Always the student kills the master when he is powerful enough. The master in this situation won't teach everything he knows to his student because he don't wants his student to become even or more powerful. And in the history every Sithlord was destroyed by his apprentice. Only exceptions are Ragnos and Revan.

But you can see: Sadow was destroyed by Nadd, Nadd by Exar Kun, Kun was betrayed by his former apprentice. Plagueis was killed by Sidious, Sidious in the end killed by Vader. And with every fall of a Sithlord a part of his knowledge is lost. That was not that hard when there were more Sith but from the time the "only one master and one apprentice" rule was installed (1000 years before ANH) there was a great lost of knowledge and power among the Sith.

Now back to the topic:
I would say the Sith pull that off here. But I am not without any doubt.

Reasons:

a)
It is very hard to use the force against somebody who awaits that you will do that even when you are much more powerful than your opponent. That can be seen in the whole prequel trilogy (Dooku using force lightning on Obi-Wan, Sidious trying the same with Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan try to force push the other away)

b)
I won't underestimate the swordfighting abilities of Mace and Obi-Wan here. Vaapad is great against dark side users and Obi-Wan (from RotS on) was never defeated in a one-vs-one lightsaber duel.

c)
I think Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon will be a much better team than they were in TPM. Two Jedi Masters, two different fighting styles to use against one enemy.

Well...as I mentioned. I think Exar Kun and Naga Sadow will win here but it would be a pretty hard fight.

sorry if i offended you, i just didnt agree completely with what you said
i also think the KOTOR games - characters are overpowered since the game developers wanted as cool and powerful as possible sith lords....
just my opinion (carefully enough or what? )

every man or woman has the right to their own opinion. that is cool in my book

Originally posted by sasee tiin
sorry if i offended you, i just didnt agree completely with what you said
i also think the KOTOR games - characters are overpowered since the game developers wanted as cool and powerful as possible sith lords....
just my opinion (carefully enough or what? )

Everyone outside the films is pretty much overpowered.

Exar Kun is, Freedon Nadd is, Ragnos is, Sadow is, NJO Luke is, Revan is, Kyle Katarn is. Compare this guys to the people running around in the films and you will almost everytime have to say that they are overpowered (also there is a certain logic behind their amount of power). That guys are all great figures inside the SW universe and I like them but sometimes I ask myself what their creators had in mind.

two brilliant replies nai fohl!!
i agree with everything!

only one thing doesn't seem logic to me.....
if the masters didnt teach everything they knew to their students, how could the students then win? Someone performed a surprise attack, i know, but not all did so.....
lets say they simply became stronger, but if that is true, siths would have been stronger and stronger, not weaker....

Originally posted by sasee tiin
only one thing doesn't seem logic to me.....
if the masters didnt teach everything they knew to their students, how could the students then win? Someone performed a surprise attack, i know, but not all did so.....
lets say they simply became stronger, but if that is true, siths would have been stronger and stronger, not weaker....

I was refering just to some force powers actually. Or just going through (known) Sith history.

Ragnos was never killed by one of his apprentices.
Sadow followed Ragnos and was not as powerful as Ragnos.
Freedon Nadd learned from Sadows spirit (if I remember that right)
Exar Kun learned from Freedon Nadds spirit.
The spirit of a Sith Lord is a lot weaker than the Sith Lord alive and thereby easier to destroy.
Next thing would be Malak who could not pass Revan in power.
Then sometime all Sith except Darth Bane were killed during the Battle of Ruusan (destroying theirselves).

That is the start of the "one master one apprentice" rule and the next thing we get to know is that Sidious killed his master while his master was sleeping (so obviously he could not take him in "direct" combat) and the last apprentice to kill his master was Darth Vader throwing Sidious/Palpatine in the Death Star reactor core in ROTJ.

We can see that the apprentice never was as powerful as the master he had learned from. Compare guys like Sidious and Sadow. Sadow could blow up stars with his force power and the worst thing Sidious could do was force lightning (or his force storm that could destroy starships - but planets ?)

you show great knowledge of SW!!
Im impressed, even though i don't think the difference between sadow and Sidious is soooooooo big
lol