Iceman (full potential) vs. Superman

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FieryBalrog
I'm inclined to think Superman would win, just because he is so durable and has a ton of options. But I think Iceman has a shot and I like him, besides he's the underdog. Lets say they fight in New York City to give Iceman a bit of an advantage.

Blair Wind
iceman.....i know lots of people here will disagree but at full potential iceman can win.....the best method is to turn into water vapor which is called mouisture inversion (how can supes see him even with microscopic vision if he IS water vapor which is naturally in the air) and no supes wont just breath him in since he has no idea where Bobby is....then Bobby can just mouiture inversion Supe's head off....since he was able to mouisture inversion people in AoA (i think, right) why not partially turn selective parts (Clarks head) into water vapor....then you have one dead Superman. in a fist fight iceman loses but if he gets creative with that and other things like make fighting ice golems (which he was practicing in uncanny x-men while talking to Nightcrawler) to just annoying Supes with ice spikes coming out of nowhere (since bobby is the water vapor) until he just mouiture inversions his head off.....so with all that I say Iceman wins.

Avalonofthewind
Supes has beat Cythonna, the kryptonian Ice goddess.

I cant see Iceman winning this.

Zahit
There is no way Iceman is beating Superman.
Not by a mile. Not even close. No way in hell

unless.....
X-Men fanboys to the rescue!!!

Blair Wind
one im not a Xmen fanboy....second just because people associate iceman with the snowball throwing idiot from the past and superman with the epitomy of superhero perfection doesnt mean that iceman at his highest potential can not and will not win. i mean superman looks at a man composed entirely out of ice...he uses heat vision and iceman "melts" while at the same time becoming water vapor....superman doesnt know he can survive as that to, he goes and mouisture inversions his head off....its not too hard to comprehend. Super man is tough...yes thats true but he is not as versitile as Iceman who doesnt really need a physical body to survive since he can just make himself a new one.....the only thing that supes can do is his heat vision and even then Bobby justs turns to water vapor...so how does Superman win again?????

Superherovandal
how does Iceman win again?

Dizzle
Dunno if the moisture inversion would work, cuz Supes's forcefield thing covers each cell... And if he figured out that his opponent was in the air, he could suck Iceman in and blow him into space...

Blair Wind
thats the arguement that was said in another thread but how can he know?? i mean iceman turngs into a substance that is already present in the air...there is no way for him to tell....second even if their covered in forcields how is that gonna affect anything? he just water vapors him and his forcefield separating him from his body.....sure if superman knew Bobby and his powers he would beat him (heat vision then suck him up) but without that knowledge he wont win.

Fanboy
Dude you are such a fanboy if you say crap like Iceman can do this and that and how does Superman win? Superman would win with the telescopic vision to see Icemans cell structure and just probably do the sucking in water vapor thing and spitting it out into space and Superman is way more experienced and crap so Superman wins blah blah ya X-men fanboy.

Blair Wind
so im a fanboy if a character has shown to do certain abilities and I tell you about them?? doesnt make sense to me....im not exagerrating his powers like some people and wolverine....and how is superman gonna see his cell structure when he IS water vapor?? doesnt make sense either...he may be more experianced and a more powerful person but sometimes even if your more powerful you can still be handed your ass by someone with a certain ability......just because your to myoptic to see the possiblity that the snowman has evloved doesnt change the fact that he can win.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Supes has beat Cythonna, the kryptonian Ice goddess.

I cant see Iceman winning this.

How did he beat Cythonna? shifty

snoopdogg
I wonder how Supermans heat vision would come into play?

Its as hot as the surface of the sun.

On another note his body is a solar battery. So Im sure his body itself generates alot of heat.

snoopdogg
Originally posted by Blair Wind
iceman.....i know lots of people here will disagree but at full potential iceman can win.....the best method is to turn into water vapor which is called mouisture inversion (how can supes see him even Supermans x-ray and microscopic vision allows him to see invisible enemies. From there all he would have to do is evaporate Iceman with some heat vision.

Blair Wind
invisible enemies? he becomes something that is already there, hows he gonna tell the difference between water vapor and water vapor???

kgkg
Originally posted by Blair Wind
invisible enemies? he becomes something that is already there, hows he gonna tell the difference between water vapor and water vapor???
He will know because any type of movement, or reaction will create heat/ or form of energy.

Superman will know

Blair Wind
thing is he doesnt even have to move, he can just mouisture inversion him from were hes at......he can use all his powers while remaining stationary in the air. Also since when does air not move naturally anyway??? if he disguised himself to just move with the naturally progression of air then how is he gonna tell the difference??

kgkg
Originally posted by Blair Wind
thing is he doesnt even have to move, he can just mouisture inversion him from were hes at......he can use all his powers while remaining stationary in the air.
Don’t change the fact,

for people to see anything light has to be reflected.

Supes vision will pick almost anything, Ice man will show some type of energy or signature other wise he wouldn’t be ice man would he.

Like say someone farts: normal people might not see the difference, but supes will pick it up.

FieryBalrog
Originally posted by kgkg
Don’t change the fact,

for people to see anything light has to be reflected.

Supes vision will pick almost anything, Ice man will show some type of energy or signature other wise he wouldn’t be ice man would he.

Like say someone farts: normal people might not see the difference, but supes will pick it up.

what he means is, how is Superman going to tell which water vapor is just regular ol' water vapor and which water vapor is secretly the disembodied consciousness of iceman? Its not like the molecules have little signs on them saying "Property of Iceman".

Besides, the water that makes up iceman's body isn't anything special, he can reform out of any water. Lets say he disperses into water vapor. He now exists among all the water vapor in the vicinity, he can even exist in the water inside Superman's cells.

Blair Wind
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
what he means is, how is Superman going to tell which water vapor is just regular ol' water vapor and which water vapor is secretly the disembodied consciousness of iceman? Its not like the molecules have little signs on them saying "Property of Iceman".

Besides, the water that makes up iceman's body isn't anything special, he can reform out of any water. Lets say he disperses into water vapor. He now exists among all the water vapor in the vicinity, he can even exist in the water inside Superman's cells.

Exactly....only thing is that he wont be able to freeze Supes even from the inside( or ice spike him) because his forcefield even covers his insides, and he has gone into space which is REALLLLLY cold.....but the mouisture inversion would work, and since he is able to "mouisture inversion" other people he should just be able to seperate superman from his limbs or his head or something.

kgkg
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
what he means is, how is Superman going to tell which water vapor is just regular ol' water vapor and which water vapor is secretly the disembodied consciousness of iceman? Its not like the molecules have little signs on them saying "Property of Iceman".

Besides, the water that makes up iceman's body isn't anything special, he can reform out of any water. Lets say he disperses into water vapor. He now exists among all the water vapor in the vicinity, he can even exist in the water inside Superman's cells.
lol Property of Iceman , all life has cosmic signature

Superman can see cells etc

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by kgkg
lol Property of Iceman , all life has cosmic signature

Superman can see cells etc

Thing is, he wouldn't be cells. He would be water droplets like those in the air.

LordFear
The whole moisture inversion theory is dubious and speculative at best.
Kryptonian physiology is vastly different than human. This theory is on the premise that Supe's molecular and cellular make up are close to human physiology which it isn't at all.
So I personally would reject that idea.

Mainstream
Originally posted by LordFear
The whole moisture inversion theory is dubious and speculative at best.
Kryptonian physiology is vastly different than human. This theory is on the premise that Supe's molecular and cellular make up are close to human physiology which it isn't at all.
So I personally would reject that idea.

I am inclined to agree with you good sir

LordFear
Originally posted by Mainstream
I am inclined to agree with you good sir


Good to see you still in KMC, good buddy.
There has been an influx of new members as of late and haven't been
seeing the "old gang" so to speak around as often.
Anyway thanx for the support

illadelph12
I'd have to take "full potential" Iceman in this fight. Supes innards ARE vulnerable. The simple fact that his body metabolizes oxygen and he can drink water and eat and metabolize food show that, and to my knowledge Supes has no healing factor. If he were to inhale Iceman, Iceman could just become one with Supes natural body fluids and freeze them internally. He could freeze the blood inside Supes heart as it pumped and there'd be nothing Kal El could do.

illadelph12
Unless, of course, Kryptonian physiology is so alien they don't have blood or water in their bodies and don't need to metabolize air...

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
How did he beat Cythonna? shifty

Read the book. The point is..he beat her and she is far far above good ol' bobby. eek!

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Read the book. The point is..he beat her. eek!

Didn't have anything to do with a Kryptonite bomb supplied by Lex Luthor, did it? shifty

I'm just guessing here.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Didn't have anything to do with a Kryptonite bomb supplied by Lex Luthor, did it? shifty

I'm just guessing here.

Nah, could be that whole solar power thing smile

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Nah, could be that whole solar power thing smile

roll eyes (sarcastic)

illadelph12
Iceman would still win.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
roll eyes (sarcastic)

laughing

This from the man who said Darkseid and SS never fought. laughing

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
laughing

This from the man who said Darkseid and SS never fought. laughing

You call Darkseid blasting Surfer in the back a fight? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I don't own the crossover. They seem to be your only (non-canon) source of info.

So how about that Kryptonite bomb, eh? You never mentioned that. The whole book, Superman is whining to Lois about how Cythonna makes him look like a b*tch. He beat her fair and square, eh?

LordFear
ALL I know for a fact is Batman and Dr whoever from Star Labs(I forgot his name) they both said at different times that Clark's physiology is nothing like a human. Yes he takes in air and has a circulatory system but it cannot be compared to humans. Deep space is about the coldest thing known to man and Supes goes to off world missions all the time.
Nobody can argue about physiology or attacks of that nature cuz the man is alien period. Debating that further would just be for the sake of arguing something pointless.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You call Darkseid blasting Surfer in the back a fight? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I don't own the crossover. They seem to be your only (non-canon) source of info.

So how about that Kryptonite bomb, eh? You never mentioned that. The whole book, Superman is whining to Lois about how Cythonna makes him look like a b*tch. He beat her fair and square, eh?

Simple fact:

Kryptonian Ice goddess > Bobby

Ice powers did not affect Supes, everything else, she whooped Supes ass physically. He beat her..it wasnt fair at all since he had to fight her on the sun... Now Bobby is far, far below cythonna. What is he going to possibly do?


As for DS and SS... I cant call it a fight. DS beat a FULLY powerered Surfer far to easily. smile

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Simple fact:

Kryptonian Ice goddess > Bobby

Ice powers did not affect Supes, everything else, she whooped Supes ass physically. He beat her..it wasnt fair at all since he had to fight her on the sun... Now Bobby is far, far below cythonna. What is he going to possibly do?


As for DS and SS... I cant call it a fight. DS beat a FULLY powerered Surfer far to easily. smile

Two words: Kryptonite Bomb. big grin

Surfer was fully powered? Crossovers are full of BS aren't they? wink

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Two words: Kryptonite Bomb. big grin

Surfer was fully powered? Crossovers are full of BS aren't they? wink

Funny, some are some aren't. Thats why the rules don't say ALL crossovers are bad. I guess you know more than John Byrne..the man who revamped Supes, and knew SS creators?laughing

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Kryptonite bomb, AND fighting on the core of the sun. Get it right buddy.

Now..do you believe bobby to be as powerful as cythonna?

kgkg
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Funny, some are some aren't. Thats why the rules don't say ALL crossovers are bad.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Kryptonite bomb, AND fighting on the core of the sun. Get it right buddy.

Now..do you believe bobby to be as powerful as cythonna?
You call that a fight attacking SS from the back when he is not expecting it?

Well in that crossover Orion’s attacks had no effect, or than annoy him, SS treated him like a child

Orion = Superman

And darkseid has trouble with Orion in battles

as for this battle i don't know much about Ice man

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Funny, some are some aren't. Thats why the rules don't say ALL crossovers are bad. I guess you know more than John Byrne..the man who revamped Supes, and knew SS creators?laughing

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Kryptonite bomb, AND fighting on the core of the sun. Get it right buddy.

Now..do you believe bobby to be as powerful as cythonna?


Darkseid harming Surfer with the Omega Effect is not happening, even if he did sneak up on him. That would make the crossover non-canon.

You never mentioned a Kryptonite Bomb. Doesn't matter. Cythonna was weakened. Superman wasn't. Not a fair fight. big grin

Do you recall me saying that Bobby would win?

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by kgkg
You call that a fight attacking SS from the back when he is not expecting it?

Well in that crossover Orion’s attacks had no effect, or than annoy him, SS treated him like a child

Orion = Superman

And darkseid has trouble with Orion in battles

as for this battle i don't know much about Ice man

Can iceman freeze the earth, or hurt beings who survive planet destroying blasts? Coud he survive on the sun?

Do you know more than John Byrne?

DrDoom
I doubt he could freeze Superman's insides. His innards are protected as well as his outer body (how else can he suck in poisoned gas, etc. and just spit it back out?).

Also, Lord Fear is right:

Superman's physiology differs from humans, it is unknown by how much because current technology isn't able to see inside his body. However, when he was injured by Gog in Action, he was taken to STAR labs...and the Kryptonite in his body enabled the doctors to see inside of him...at least a little bit.

So far (besides the two organs in his body that produce his special powers):

His appendix is a fully formed organ.
His resting heart-rate is near stopped.
His body temp is slightly elevated.
His blood pressure is nonexistent.

So I'm sure Superman could use his heat vision to melt Iceman, but he can't permanently take him out unless Iceman reforms enough to be flown into space.

Iceman, on the other hand, can't do anything to Superman. That moisture inversion stuff won't do anything to him, his forcefield will protect him. Freezing/ice won't hurt him: he's been in the depths of space...and until recently his hideout was in one of the coldest places on Earth. Superman is no stranger to cold temps.

It's a stalemate at best, a win for Supes at worst.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Darkseid harming Surfer with the Omega Effect is not happening, even if he did sneak up on him. That would make the crossover non-canon.

You never mentioned a Kryptonite Bomb. Doesn't matter. Cythonna was weakened. Superman wasn't. Not a fair fight. big grin

Do you recall me saying that Bobby would win?

Not at all. Had to make sure though.

Either way. Once again...Cythonnas an ice goddess..and her ice powers did nothing to supes.

She beat the hell out of him every other way. My point all along. Can you find where I said it was a fair fight? I've said the opposite.

illadelph12
Did Cythonna become vapor, enter Clark's body, and freeze his heart from the inside, bypassing his bio-matrix forcefield? If not, I think it is a plausible course of attack for Bobby considering the evidence of Supes body metabolizing water, food, and air.

The fact that Supes flies through space on a regular basis and that space is extremely cold and doesn't effect him is of no consequence because:

1) Supes has a protective forcefield that protects him from the outside.
2) A GL can do the same thing. John Stewart and Hal Jordan aren't kryptonian. Unless, of course, GL rings come with built in heaters for space travel.
3) There is a reason why Supes holds his breath while in space, his lungs are vunlnerable, he has to metabolize air. His physiology isn't so alien he doesn't need air, water, or food.

The fact that Cythonna is more powerful than Iceman is of no consequence either. She wasn't shown to use this particular method of attack available to Bobby. You don't have to be insanely powerful when you have a decisive tactical advantage. Sometimes it's about using what you have the right way. Just ask Batman.

Iceman would win.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Can iceman freeze the earth, or hurt beings who survive planet destroying blasts? Coud he survive on the sun?

Do you know more than John Byrne?

Who knows. He probably could.

Who survived a planet destroying blast?

Sure he could. As water vapor.

Please. Enough with the "Do you know more than so-snd-so?" It's pathetic.

Here's a question for you: Does Superman get a Kryptonite bomb in this fight too? laughing

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Who knows. He probably could.

Who survived a planet destroying blast?

Sure he could. As water vapor.

Please. Enough with the "Do you know more than so-snd-so?" It's pathetic.

Here's a question for you: Does Superman get a Kryptonite bomb in this fight too? laughing

It's cute when you try the reverse logic type thing to get yourself out of a hole. It's pathetic. laughing

John Byrne's knowledge of these characters>CC

Bobby Could, should, but he hasnt. smile

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
It's cute when you try the reverse logic type thing to get yourself out of a hole. It's pathetic. laughing

John Byrne's knowledge of these characters>CC

Bobby Could, should, but he hasnt. smile

Reverse what logic? You're the one that's in a hole.

CC ability to write comic book stories apparently>John Byrne

Heaven knows.

Kryptonite Bomb!blowup

laughing

illadelph12
The same way I can fake taking a hit from a joint and exhale smoke without it ever entering my lungs.

Like Bill Clinton;

don't inhale (fully).

So long as it doesn't fully enter his lungs and metabolize he's ok, just like us. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done that with the joint/blunt, or sucked air into your mouth and puffed out your cheeks without inhaling the air fully into your lungs and then blowing it out.

Supes does breath, eat, and drink, so obviously things do pass through his biomatrix internally.

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
Did Cythonna become vapor, enter Clark's body, and freeze his heart from the inside, bypassing his bio-matrix forcefield? If not, I think it is a plausible course of attack for Bobby considering the evidence of Supes body metabolizing water, food, and air.

The fact that Supes flies through space on a regular basis and that space is extremely cold and doesn't effect him is of no consequence because:

1) Supes has a protective forcefield that protects him from the outside.
2) A GL can do the same thing. John Stewart and Hal Jordan aren't kryptonian. Unless, of course, GL rings come with built in heaters for space travel.
3) There is a reason why Supes holds his breath while in space, his lungs are vunlnerable, he has to metabolize air. His physiology isn't so alien he doesn't need air, water, or food.

The fact that Cythonna is more powerful than Iceman is of no consequence either. She wasn't shown to use this particular method of attack available to Bobby. You don't have to be insanely powerful when you have a decisive tactical advantage. Sometimes it's about using what you have the right way. Just ask Batman.

Iceman would win.

Ok to respond to your three reasons:
1. So if deep space has no effect on his innards because of his force field, then why an attack from the OUTSIDE from Bobby would affect him then? It's like your argument is not consistent because it only works for one thing not the other.
2.GL? The man protects or surrounds himself with a thin layer of forcefield at all times. That field envelops him at all times and only his mental command can take it off or if the ring is at low power.
3.Supes holds his breath everytime he goes into space?
Can that be verified accurately? Then how can he talk in space?
Wouldn't his vocal cords need air to have the sounds resonate?
I really don't understand. If that's not the case, then either way that only proves even further how alien his anatomy is and how this plan of attack is just an unfounded idea.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Reverse what logic? You're the one that's in a hole.

CC ability to write comic book stories apparently>John Byrne

Heaven knows.

Kryptonite Bomb!blowup

laughing

CC is now better than John Byrne. I've feel i've lost you. That hole is too deep. laughing

Kryptonyte bomb x infinity!! laughing

DrDoom
Originally posted by illadelph12
Did Cythonna become vapor, enter Clark's body, and freeze his heart from the inside, bypassing his bio-matrix forcefield? If not, I think it is a plausible course of attack for Bobby considering the evidence of Supes body metabolizing water, food, and air.

Again, his forcefield protects the INSIDE of his body as well. He needs air, but not food or water. His body can survive on solar energy alone. He just eats because he likes food, plus he's been eating long before his powers developed. It's a habit, not a necessity.

Plus, in AoA who did Bobby use the inversion on? I only have the first issue featuring the team, but I only saw him use it to help move his team. Noone on that team was nearly as durable as Superman, nor was anyone who Pietro's team fought. Again, I highly doubt that it would work.

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
The same way I can fake taking a hit from a joint and exhale smoke without it ever entering my lungs.

Like Bill Clinton;

don't inhale (fully).

So long as it doesn't fully enter his lungs and metabolize he's ok, just like us. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done that with the joint/blunt, or sucked air into your mouth and puffed out your cheeks without inhaling the air fully into your lungs and then blowing it out.

Supes does breath, eat, and drink, so obviously things do pass through his biomatrix internally.


Yes they pass through his biomatrix but they are normal untainted processes. When something malignant or destructive enters his system, those normal functions won't keep functioning at the same rate. While Bobby is in vapor form trying to disrupt his brain activity or whatever, his immune system or biomatrix (if they are separate entities) will kick in and protect him.

illadelph12
Also, as a sidenote, in order to perform mouth to mouth resuscitation (cpr), you draw in oxygen, then blow it into the person lacking airs lungs. If you fully inhaled and then did it, you'd be blowing carbon dioxide (CO2) into their lungs because that is what humans exhale. Just adding that to add to my argument showing that the above is possible.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by LordFear
Ok to respond to your three reasons:
1. So if deep space has no effect on his innards because of his force field, then why an attack from the OUTSIDE from Bobby would affect him then? It's like your argument is not consistent because it only works for one thing not the other.
2.GL? The man protects or surrounds himself with a thin layer of forcefield at all times. That field envelops him at all times and only his mental command can take it off or if the ring is at low power.
3.Supes holds his breath everytime he goes into space?
Can that be verified accurately? Then how can he talk in space?
Wouldn't his vocal cords need air to have the sounds resonate?
I really don't understand. If that's not the case, then either way that only proves even further how alien his anatomy is and how this plan of attack is just an unfounded idea.

Don't forget the best question, how did supes LIVE in the sun for thousands of years if he needs to breathe in space?

illadelph12
Also, as a second sidenote, I'm not arguing the inversion end of the debate, I'm arguing that Iceman could cause terminal damage to Supes innards. Don't see him turning Superman's head into a puddle, but I can see him freezing the blood in Kal El's heart from the inside and causing him a severe heart attack.

DrDoom
How can he...if his forcefield PROTECTS HIS INSIDES????

I'm still waiting...

illadelph12
Originally posted by LordFear
Yes they pass through his biomatrix but they are normal untainted processes. When something malignant or destructive enters his system, those normal functions won't keep functioning at the same rate. While Bobby is in vapor form trying to disrupt his brain activity or whatever, his immune system or biomatrix (if they are separate entities) will kick in and protect him.

Posssibly, but the thing with that course of logic is that Bobby would not be malignant presence in his body. Supes immune system would not have any way to distinguish Bobby from normal water vapor. I'm very sure his immune system can not detect a disembodied consciousness within him. Supe hass been posessed, mind controlled, and fell victim to psychic illusions after all, and his "immune system" had no effect.

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
Also, as a second sidenote, I'm not arguing the inversion end of the debate, I'm arguing that Iceman could cause terminal damage to Supes innards. Don't see him turning Superman's head into a puddle, but I can see him freezing the blood in Kal El's heart from the inside and causing him a severe heart attack.


Again that scenario is effective for a HUMAN BEING!!!
Not an alien who's physiology is virtually unknown.
His heart and b/p and all operate on a very different scale from a terran.
I mean Christ, the man's crib is in the South Pole (or is it North?).
Is he unfamiliar with the concept of exteme or deep freeze?
I have seen him swim deep undersea with Aquaman numerous times.
Do you know how cold the bottom of the sea is, where light can't even reach it?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by DrDoom
How can he...if his forcefield PROTECTS HIS INSIDES????

I'm still waiting...

The aura doesn't protect his insides. It's a skintight bio-aura.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
CC is now better than John Byrne. I've feel i've lost you. That hole is too deep. laughing

Kryptonyte bomb x infinity!! laughing

Guess so, if he puts out crap like that crossover. Give it up. You're in the hole, and you can't get out. Superman couldn't beat Cythonna without a Kryptonite Bomb, but you never said anything about it.

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
Posssibly, but the thing with that course of logic is that Bobby would not be malignant presence in his body. Supes immune system would not have any way to distinguish Bobby from normal water vapor. I'm very sure his immune system can not detect a disembodied consciousness within him. Supe hass been posessed, mind controlled, and fell victim to psychic illusions after all, and his "immune system" had no effect.

Ok but once he starts to create havoc within Supes, therefore making his presence felt by Supe's body like,"Hey something is wrong here"
That's when the whole immune system thing kicks in.
It's like cancer. As long as the tissues are normal and healthy, the body is fine but as soon as they begin to multiply and become dangerous to the body, that's when your immune kicks in.

Avalonofthewind
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
The aura doesn't protect his insides. It's a skintight bio-aura.



Guess so, if he puts out crap like that crossover. Give it up. You're in the hole, and you can't get out. Superman couldn't beat Cythonna without a Kryptonite Bomb, but you never said anything about it.

I expected better cube. Keep trying though... *throws some rope*

Why would I have to bring in the bomb? Her ice powers didnt faze him. Her vastly superior physical advantages did. It's been stated by myself quite a few times.

DrDoom
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
The aura doesn't protect his insides. It's a skintight bio-aura

Right...so how does Superman inhale poisonous gasses and not be killed?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by DrDoom
Right...so how does Superman inhale poisonous gasses and not be killed?

Cause he's Superman, and he's NOT HUMAN. Things that are poisonous to us aren't poisonous to him.

DrDoom
Uh huh...

illadelph12
Originally posted by LordFear
Ok to respond to your three reasons:
1. So if deep space has no effect on his innards because of his force field, then why an attack from the OUTSIDE from Bobby would affect him then? It's like your argument is not consistent because it only works for one thing not the other.
2.GL? The man protects or surrounds himself with a thin layer of forcefield at all times. That field envelops him at all times and only his mental command can take it off or if the ring is at low power.
3.Supes holds his breath everytime he goes into space?
Can that be verified accurately? Then how can he talk in space?
Wouldn't his vocal cords need air to have the sounds resonate?
I really don't understand. If that's not the case, then either way that only proves even further how alien his anatomy is and how this plan of attack is just an unfounded idea.

1) I'm not arguing an external attack, I'm arguing an internal attack.
2) GLs fly through space as Supes does with no temperature effects. It's not his physiology that protects him, it's his forcefield.
3) DC has established that Supes has to breath. He eats by choice, but it doesn't change the fact his body can and does metabolize foreign substances, meaning that his innards are not fully protected by his biomatrix.

illadelph12
Originally posted by DrDoom
Right...so how does Superman inhale poisonous gasses and not be killed?

He doesn't fully inhale and metabolize the toxin, he just draws it in and blows it away. Like a person giving CPR.

Superherovandal
how is it that he could ingest Nitroglycerine then?

illadelph12
Did he ingest/drink nitroglycerine, or inhale and fill his lungs with nitroglycerine?

Has he ever ingested liquid nitrogen?

Superherovandal
Yup. I remember from one comic.

Superherovandal
plus even his cells are surrounded by his aura. So Iceman won't be doing anything in there.

illadelph12
Could you scan it please?

illadelph12
And was this pre or post crisis?

Superherovandal
I don't have a scanner.

illadelph12
Originally posted by Superherovandal
plus even his cells are surrounded by his aura. So Iceman won't be doing anything in there.

No, obviously they are not. Supes eats food, drinks water, breaths air, and metabolizes all of the above, meaning that his biomatrix can be circumvented from the inside or else no substance would be able to pass through and be metabolized by his body.

Superherovandal
if you knew anything about science you would know that cell allow certain things into themselves. They wouldn't allow a bacterium to enter it unless it has like a sort of bypass glycoprotein.

Blair Wind
So since know one buys my theory about his mouisture inverioning Supes head off, (which of course im now wondering if he can turn ANYTHING into water vapor because all he really does is convert molecules into water vapor wouldnt that convert the forcefield as well?) im gonna have to say I agree with what illadelph is saying and also that he might inhale those piosones gases but since he is alien to him it might not be poisones.....he can wreck havok from the inside out. Iceman has a tactical advantage in this battle.

illadelph12
Originally posted by Superherovandal
if you knew anything about science you would know that cell allow certain things into themselves. They wouldn't allow a bacterium to enter it unless it has like a sort of bypass glycoprotein.

Exactly.

Which is why Bobby would kill Superman. His body metabolizes water. Bobby can become water. His immune system cannot distinguish between regular water and water with a disembodied mutant consciouness, they are both the exact same substance. Supes body does not defend against water, and Bobby's consciousness does not have substance and would not register as a foreign intruder or organism.

nngo2k
What about in AoA where Colossus rams Iceman trying to run after Illyana? Didn't he kill Iceman then? Or was he just "out of form" and came back later? But if Colossus did kill Iceman then Superman surely can too.

Iceman did freeze Legion, so I can see him do the same to Superman, the only problem is what if Superman moves too fast for Iceman to focus on?

And besides, how do you kill water?? Polute it? Mix it with cement?

dvampire
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
I'm inclined to think Superman would win, just because he is so durable and has a ton of options. But I think Iceman has a shot and I like him, besides he's the underdog. Lets say they fight in New York City to give Iceman a bit of an advantage.

Superman. Supes just fly over to boby and snap his neck, fights over. smile

Mainstream
Originally posted by dvampire
Superman. Supes just fly over to boby and snap his neck, fights over. smile

do you not realize Iceman is immortal child?

dvampire
Originally posted by Mainstream
do you not realize Iceman is immortal child?

He can die just like every other human being. smile

Blair Wind
Originally posted by dvampire
He can die just like every other human being. smile

ummmm.....no. sorry but now Icy cant be physically harmed or killed....he just takes the water vapor in the air and makes himself a new body.....and even if every icy piece is broken he still lives as water vapor, which means unless he goes to the sun, space, or their is a telepathic person there he isnt gonna die.

nngo2k
Or Supes manages to break up the Hydrogen and Oxygen then Iceman is no more.

LordFear
Originally posted by nngo2k
Or Supes manages to break up the Hydrogen and Oxygen then Iceman is no more.


That's actually a damn good idea.
Fights over!!!
Supe certainly can do that.

Blair Wind
thing is that once iceman goes water vaporish superman wont know were he went.....sure if he knew the powers of iceman he could win but if he didnt know then he cant do that....thats me point.

Creshosk
Originally posted by LordFear

Supe certainly can do that. He can manipulate atomic particles like that?

jrodslam
As long as there is any type of moisture in the air, Superman would never be able to get rid of Iceman. Unless they are fighting in the desert or something, Bobby will always be able to create things and reform himself.

LordFear
Originally posted by Creshosk
He can manipulate atomic particles like that?



He can magnify his vision like a microscope and discern certain particles.
He can also atomic separate them or fuse them( just like atom a smasher) atomic fusion or fission.

Creshosk
Originally posted by LordFear
He can magnify his vision like a microscope and discern certain particles. Not bloody likely, Hydrogen and Oxygen are too small for photon's to react to in the same way. We can only really "see" these things by observing their interaction with other particles. And there would be more in the air than just iceman's particles. . .

Originally posted by LordFear
He can also atomic separate them or fuse them( just like atom a smasher) atomic fusion or fission. How can he do that?

illadelph12
laughing

Now Supes can use his "vision" to bond or seperate atoms?? Please provide a scan of this, I've got to see this. If that's true he could focus his eyes and make a focused beam of water stream out of his eyes by bonding hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the atmosphere. I HIGHLY doubt that is possible.

On the flipside, it's been established, by DC themselves, that Supes breathes. Iceman could kill him internally. There is no way for Superman to tell where Iceman is once he becomes vapor because Supes is not telepathic. In that form the only way for Supes to pinpoint Iceman would be through psionics, water vapor is far to prevelant in the air for him to discern. All Bobby has to do is dissipate, move along the moisture in the air into Supes lungs as he breathes, and move into his blood stream. From there he can either freeze up Supes flood flow in his hear and cause a severe heart attack, or cause ice crystals in his blood flow that cause a stroke when they reach Supes brain.

Either equals a dead kryptonian.

Iceman wins.

manjaro
iceman would at least look cool getting his ass beat....get it?

manjaro
actually supes innards are protected as well becuase thats where the bioshield comes from in the first place. meaning that, its each individual cell in his body that exudes an energy signature and then all of them put together forms skin level protection.

Creshosk
Originally posted by illadelph12
And yet he becomes superman prime by spending years inside the sun. . .

illadelph12
Originally posted by manjaro
actually supes innards are protected as well becuase thats where the bioshield comes from in the first place. meaning that, its each individual cell in his body that exudes an energy signature and then all of them put together forms skin level protection.

I understand all that. It doesn't change the fact that Supes:

1)Breathes and metabolizes air.
2)Drinks and metabolizes water.
3)Eats and metabolizes food.
4)Body contains fluids, with the abundance being water.

Bobby can attack him internally by bypassing his protection. The fact that Supes metabolizes air and water means Bobby's avenue of attack is open. Supes body already allows these normally non lethal substances into his body, Iceman just has to hitch a ride inside when Supes inhales, then from inside attack him at the cellular level, since air and fluids are allowed through his forcefield (he does metabolize them, so they must be allowed through his forcefield).

illadelph12
Dupe.

illadelph12
Originally posted by Creshosk
And yet he becomes superman prime by spending years inside the sun. . .

laughing

Inconsistency is the spice of life in comics. I'll still read GL and Punisher comics though, I don't care.

FieryBalrog
Originally posted by Superherovandal
if you knew anything about science you would know that cell allow certain things into themselves. They wouldn't allow a bacterium to enter it unless it has like a sort of bypass glycoprotein.

Iceman is not a bacterium, he is water vapor. If you knew anything about science you'd know that cells allow water into and out of themselves all the time- its probably THE most common and important thing happening in any cell at any time. Water travels throughout the body. Bobbys water molecules dont come with little antibodies saying "hey, we belong to iceman, you dont like us!" Its not even like cancer, because cancer can be detected by the immune system because of the genetic damage and the resultant misformed proteins... If water can get into and out of Supes biofield- and it must be able to- than so can iceman...

Creshosk
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
Iceman is not a bacterium, he is water vapor. If you knew anything about science you'd know that cells allow water into and out of themselves all the time- its probably THE most common and important thing happening in any cell at any time. Water travels throughout the body. Bobbys water molecules dont come with little antibodies saying "hey, we belong to iceman, you dont like us!" Its not even like cancer, because cancer can be detected by the immune system because of the genetic damage and the resultant misformed proteins... If water can get into and out of Supes biofield- and it must be able to- than so can iceman... Water moves so freely that they have a seperate name for it and everything.

Osmosis.

How would his cells know the difference between iceman controlled water and regular water? smile

Does that help you out at all? confused

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Creshosk
And yet he becomes superman prime by spending years inside the sun. . .

Crazy, right? They specifically said that he needs to breathe. I don't think he brought a tank of O2 in there with him, so what gives?

CorderaMitchell
Thats comics for you especially DC, going against itself at every turn.

nngo2k
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Crazy, right? They specifically said that he needs to breathe. I don't think he brought a tank of O2 in there with him, so what gives?

I didn't follow Prime, but from what I can extrapolate: the Sun re-energizes Supes. And the fact that he slept in it, it's like regeneration going at a faster rate than he needs to breath ... eat ... or drink? Does that make sense?

On this note, if it were possible for Supe to somehow contain Iceman and put him in the Sun, that'd kill him cuz there's enough heat to split atoms.

Btw, I haven't seen Iceman turned into vapor. I mean he is "ICE" man, and I've seen him broken into slivers of ice, never turn into water or vapor form. Nor have I seen him manipulate water. He has manipulated water by turning it into ice, but not it's liquid or gas form. I could be wrong.

exerpt from marveldirectory:

"The Iceman is a mutant with the superhuman ability to lower his external and internal body temperature, projecting intense coldness from his body"

"Through practice, the Iceman has learned to control the intensity of his coldness, and he can selectively lower the temperature of isolated parts of his body."

So no indication that Iceman can raise temperature above 0C, or even to 100C to turn water into vapor. Unless "full potential" means that it makes him "The Water-Man-ipulator" .... haha

And no one answered my question: what happened to Iceman when Colussus ram him in AoA

Blair Wind
water vapor is in X-men Forever which features Juggs, Jean, Mystique, toad, and prosh, and marvel directery isnt always the best source....if you want, in my opinion and my opinion only, a better source on a scientific level on his powers go here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=340145&perpage=20&highlight=Iceman+Powers+and+Abilities&pagenumber=3

manjaro
but still how the heck is he gonna turn supermans head into water vapors if he is invulnerbale. supes invulnerabilty doesnt stem exclusively from his aura. his skin , bone, and muscle tissue is still thousands of times denser than normal humans. thats why he can run really fast by pure locomotion. becuase his body can handle the exertion, meaning phhysical activities doesnt have anything to do with his aura. so bobby can turn into water til the cows come home. he'll be nothing more than A/C in superman's lungs

colossus17
actually it does..... stem for his aura.....his skin and tissue is only a 3 or 4 times denser then humans...kindaa like asgardians tissue......his aura is his main protection...

shaolin9976
This is really no contest.

Iceman could use all his powers and he will still lose to Superman, just using 5% of his.

Easy fight:0)

manjaro
the only way that invading his insides can even be plausible is if he turns into water itself instead of the vapors cuz in the outsiders, jinx turned the oxygen in black lightening's daughter's lungs into water and drowned her from the inside and she was an invulnerable chick, but then again superman can expel air from his lungs in a ridiculously powerful manner so that probably wouldnt work either..i think maybe someone should come up with another way cuz none of this is working

shaolin9976
The only way iceman can win a fight against superman is to bring a kryptonite and surprise him with it.

manjaro
Originally posted by illadelph12
laughing

Now Supes can use his "vision" to bond or seperate atoms?? Please provide a scan of this, I've got to see this..




ummmm ok....1 of 2

illadelph12
Originally posted by manjaro
the only way that invading his insides can even be plausible is if he turns into water itself instead of the vapors cuz in the outsiders, jinx turned the oxygen in black lightening's daughter's lungs into water and drowned her from the inside and she was an invulnerable chick, but then again superman can expel air from his lungs in a ridiculously powerful manner so that probably wouldnt work either..i think maybe someone should come up with another way cuz none of this is working

Once Bobby got inside he could inhabit Supes own natural body fluids, he wouldn't have to stay in vapor form. Then he could wreak havoc on Supes cardiovascular system. I'm sure ice crystals and bubbles in Supes blood stream would cause a stroke, or the blood in his heart freezing would cause severe heart failure.

Supes would have no way of knowing because he's not telepathic.

shaolin9976
Bobby doesn't stand a chance against Superman. It's too simple. At least bring some of his friends before he face Superman. It's just not going to happen.

manjaro
2 of 2

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
Exactly.

Which is why Bobby would kill Superman. His body metabolizes water. Bobby can become water. His immune system cannot distinguish between regular water and water with a disembodied mutant consciouness, they are both the exact same substance. Supes body does not defend against water, and Bobby's consciousness does not have substance and would not register as a foreign intruder or organism.


Again I think you are missing the point.
Once he BEGINS to disrupt things because that's the whole point isn't it?
To incapacitate Supes, THEN his immune will react and respond.
That's what an immune system does, dude.
Up to the point Bobby begins to tamper with him from within, Supes' body will discern and now that this isn't normal water vapors. It won't know that it's Bobby but it will know that something is trying to harm it and defend itself. Plain and simple.

LordFear
Originally posted by Creshosk
Not bloody likely, Hydrogen and Oxygen are too small for photon's to react to in the same way. We can only really "see" these things by observing their interaction with other particles. And there would be more in the air than just iceman's particles. . .

How can he do that?


Photons???
dude that's like particles at a subatomic level.
A molecule of water is composed of atoms, right.
Amolecule is much larger than an atom.
That's freakin' basic chemistry. Look it up and prove me different.
I am not talking about photons. Totally different thing.
I haven't mentioned anything about light particles.

I beleived he could do that because he was once in Star Labs analyzing a piece of alien meteor that was found but no one could analyze it properly because there property were unknown. They called Clark to checck it out and come to find out that there were subatomic microorganisms living on the meteor that later starting poisoning the air.
I assumed from that that he could but if he can't than fine my fault.
But if the guy can turn normal coal into diamonds, is that such a far fetched notion after all?

illadelph12
Originally posted by LordFear
Again I think you are missing the point.
Once he BEGINS to disrupt things because that's the whole point isn't it?
To incapacitate Supes, THEN his immune will react and respond.
That's what an immune system does, dude.
Up to the point Bobby begins to tamper with him from within, Supes' body will discern and now that this isn't normal water vapors. It won't know that it's Bobby but it will know that something is trying to harm it and defend itself. Plain and simple.

And what, pray tell, would his immune system do?

Purge his body of all fluids and send Superman into shock?

Iceman's consciousness would be one with Supes own body fluids, I highly doubt that his immune system would be able to do anything at all. His "immune system" would not work against psionic invasion, Bobby is not a foreign organism (bacteria/virus) invading his body. The immune system would really have no stimuli to react to, water and air are normal components of Superman's metabolism, Bobby would simply give this portion of Supes body composition sentience. When the miniscule ice crystals form in his blood stream or the blood in his heart freezes, there would be nothing his "immune system" could do about it. It wouldn't even be triggered. When a person has an anurism, the "immune system" doesn't stop the blood clot or air bubble in the bloodstream from damaging the brain, does it.

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
And what, pray tell, would his immune system do?

Purge his body of all fluids and send Superman into shock?

Iceman's consciousness would be one with Supes own body fluids, I highly doubt that his immune system would be able to do anything at all. His "immune system" would not work against psionic invasion, Bobby is not a foreign organism (bacteria/virus) invading his body. The immune system would really have no stimuli to react to, water and air are normal components of Superman's metabolism, Bobby would simply give this portion of Supes body composition sentience. When the miniscule ice crystals form in his blood stream or the blood in his heart freezes, there would be nothing his "immune system" could do about it. It wouldn't even be triggered. When a person has an anurism, the "immune system" doesn't stop the blood clot or air bubble in the bloodstream from damaging the brain, does it.


First off. When he creates those little icy crystals you keep referring to, that's when his immune realizes that something is wrong and sends out antibodies(boy, you serious? You never heard of what the immune response is about?) to fight it off. Those little things called white blood cells or lymphocytes or Tcells or N-killers(really for cancer patients).
He is not attacking Bobby, fine I agree with you but it will fight whatever Bobby's conscienceness is trying to do to Supes body.
Second thing.Buddy when someone get's an aneurism, guess what?YES your body's immune kicks up and produces antibodies to fight it off but it's not always a sure fire thing. Why do you think doctors tell you to take an aspirin or baby aspirin once a day or every other day?Because the ingredients in it(salt derivitive) helps your immune when it produces antibodies. Oh and one more thing. Our bodies produce blood clots continuously every minute of the day. You know the reason why we don't all keel over and die? Bingo!!!Your immune system working 24/7 fighting them off hoping to prevent one of them to block your heart or brain.

manjaro
i belive thats what antibodies are for. its basic principle. if youre being injured your body naturally reacts to try to help out. the moment bobby messes with a blood vessel. providing that he's even strong enuff to do it, you know since every cell in supermans body is charged with the solar energy that makes his aura, his body's natural defenses will kick in. the same way when Steel and Ray palmer went inside superman they were fine until they started bouncing around and then little superman shaped antibodies immediately attacked them.

remember in JLA when the white Martians staged thier attack by burning off the O2 in the atmosphere? it was superman who noticed with his microscopic vision that the O2 molecules in the environment is less than what they should be compared to hydrogen. and it wasnt something he discovered by accident the guy just constantly pays attention to every detail. the main thing to learn from that is he knows what differnt molecules look like so bobby could turn into whatever he wants superman is gonna notice.

just like magneto can tell when ppl are trying to sneak up in him or teleporting by sensing distortions in the EM spectrum in his vicinty, or the flashes can tell when ppl are near by sensing vibrations. superman has that same sensing ability(not the magneto one...that was just an example) its due to his heightend senses. eg. in Green Arrow when HAl as parallax decided to bring him back to life, he re created Arrow's body from a microscopic particle that was stuck on superman's costume(if you remember when he blew up in that plane supes was right there) hal made a comment to the effect that even though he would have more than likey washed his costume since then a microscopic piece of him was still there....anyway the point im trying to make is superman and batman was on a roof talking then all of a sudden superman commented that he felt something removed from him. batman was like what? and clark said that something microscopic just left his body.

lesson here, he felt something that small. so that put together with his abilties to see, and feel molecules plus sense vibrations bobby couldnt enter his system without him knowing it. also he is called iceman after all, so unless he's gonna decrease his atoms to room temp. im sure supes would feel him in some way or another....like i said A/C in lungs, and thats about it

o.g. slaughter
nebody got any pics of iceman full potent and what are all his abilities.

Superherovandal
hello first of all he has his protective aura around each and every one of his cells. second of all if iceman gets through the aura which i highly doubt he'd half to go against supes immune system. which is hundreds of thousands times faster reactive wise than a human.

Creshosk
His immune system fights off water?

Why hasn't he dehydrated by now?

illadelph12
Originally posted by LordFear
First off. When he creates those little icy crystals you keep referring to, that's when his immune realizes that something is wrong and sends out antibodies(boy, you serious? You never heard of what the immune response is about?) to fight it off. Those little things called white blood cells or lymphocytes or Tcells or N-killers(really for cancer patients).
He is not attacking Bobby, fine I agree with you but it will fight whatever Bobby's conscienceness is trying to do to Supes body.
Second thing.Buddy when someone get's an aneurism, guess what?YES your body's immune kicks up and produces antibodies to fight it off but it's not always a sure fire thing. Why do you think doctors tell you to take an aspirin or baby aspirin once a day or every other day?Because the ingredients in it(salt derivitive) helps your immune when it produces antibodies. Oh and one more thing. Our bodies produce blood clots continuously every minute of the day. You know the reason why we don't all keel over and die? Bingo!!!Your immune system working 24/7 fighting them off hoping to prevent one of them to block your heart or brain.

Funny, I always thought cholesterol levels and diet effected blood viscosity. I never new you immune system could not only detect, but break down an air bubble in your bloodstream. I bet Derrick Thomas's doctors wish they had given him an aspirin to strengthen his "immune system"...

I think you are confused Manjaro.

The "immune system" defends against foreign invaders and impurities, yes, but it would not defend against ice crystals or air bubbles forming in the body. Maybe the "nervous system" would by causing the body to shiver and increase body temperature to counteract the sudden temperature differential (for ice crystals), but a T cell sent by the immune system is not going to show up with a heater and melt the ice, it wouldn't do a thing at all, actually, water isn't a foreign intruder within the bloodstream. When you suffer from hypothermia, the "immune system" isn't what causes your body to shake and shiver.

Bobby could strike before Supes "immune system" or "nervous system" could react. Just enter his body, move to his heart or brain within Supes own body fluids or both simultaneously, flash freeze;

Game Over.

Also, on a sidenote (regarding aspirin and other pills boosting your immune system), there are studies that show it actually does the opposite, in particular taking pills like penicilin. What it does is inhibit your immune system from forming within itself all of the antibodies necessary to address the threat so that in the future your body doesn't have the proper defense within itself to defend against impurities, as well as the impurities becoming resistant to the antibiotics, which means you'd need to either take stronger, more expensive antibiotics and make the pharmaceutical companies very happy, or allow the impurity to run its course in your body and allow your body to create the needed antibodies and destroy the impurity, as well as store the new antibody compound in your cellular membranes for future use.

Superherovandal
hello not only are his outsides invulnerable and super-strong but his insides are just as potent. So why would the ice affect him?

illadelph12
Originally posted by Superherovandal
hello not only are his outsides invulnerable and super-strong but his insides are just as potent. So why would the ice affect him?

Because water and air is allowed within his biomatrix, and Iceman can use Supes own body chemistry against him to kill him. He can attack Supes from within his protection. His biomatrix doesn't protect from posession or psionics, and it doesn't cause his body not to metabolize water, air, or food, so Iceman is one of a few characters that though thay are weaker than Supes, has a tactical edge against him.

manjaro
my question exactly....about him being invulnerable inside and out that is. the man's cells are indestructable, i really cant get my head around superman getting a heat attack from ice. it it was super strentgh ice or something then maybe. its justy like you said about normal ppls Cenrtal Nervous System making them shudder if its too cold. supermans his heightened to a magnanimous level dude. the only this would work is if superman has been sunbathing in a red sun for three days

Superherovandal
yeah but you still forget his entire body is super-strong. You act like SUpes needs food and water to live. If he did he would be incapable of becoming Superman Prime. I wonder how much food and water he would be getting up there? He only does that because if he never ate people would get suspicious plus it is a force of habit.

illadelph12
Originally posted by Superherovandal
yeah but you still forget his entire body is super-strong. You act like SUpes needs food and water to live. If he did he would be incapable of becoming Superman Prime. I wonder how much food and water he would be getting up there? He only does that because if he never ate people would get suspicious plus it is a force of habit.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that his body DOES metabolize it, which means that his biomatrix allows it to enter into his body chemistry and cells. Whether or not he needs to eat or drink doesn't change the fact his biomatrix forcefield allows him to do it and metabolize it.

His biomatrix is not impenetrable.

The simple fact it allows light, sound, and psionics through proves that. Let alone air, food, water, etc. And I'm sure their are Kryptonian diseases as well that he'd be vulnerable to.

That avenue of attack is open for someone who can exploit it, it's just that there are very few that could. Only other person I could think of off the top of my head would be The Atom.

FieryBalrog
your immune system does not protect you from water. Or air, for that matter. Your immune system only protects you from pathogens and rogue cells. Basically, living things and semi-living organics like viruses. Not H20.

For the same reason, your immune system no matter how advanced wont protect you from heavy metal poisoning, swallowing acid, etc.

Superherovandal
Yeah but he is super strong inside and outside too. His body is totally different from our own we don't know what would happen to Iceman for all we know he might be digested into atoms. And atoms aren't containing any molecular capabilities. Besides Atom couldn't do anything inside there. He would be stuck. Like I told you he is invulnerable and superstrong inside and out.

Superherovandal
And he is obviously powerful enough to protect himself from poisonous gases in the AIR. When he blows them out there is no way to stop one or two from staying there.

True Sinister
Originally posted by shaolin9976
This is really no contest.

Iceman could use all his powers and he will still lose to Superman, just using 5% of his.

Easy fight:0) my point exactly.

LordFear
Originally posted by illadelph12
Funny, I always thought cholesterol levels and diet effected blood viscosity. I never new you immune system could not only detect, but break down an air bubble in your bloodstream. I bet Derrick Thomas's doctors wish they had given him an aspirin to strengthen his "immune system"...

I think you are confused Manjaro.

The "immune system" defends against foreign invaders and impurities, yes, but it would not defend against ice crystals or air bubbles forming in the body. Maybe the "nervous system" would by causing the body to shiver and increase body temperature to counteract the sudden temperature differential (for ice crystals), but a T cell sent by the immune system is not going to show up with a heater and melt the ice, it wouldn't do a thing at all, actually, water isn't a foreign intruder within the bloodstream. When you suffer from hypothermia, the "immune system" isn't what causes your body to shake and shiver.

Bobby could strike before Supes "immune system" or "nervous system" could react. Just enter his body, move to his heart or brain within Supes own body fluids or both simultaneously, flash freeze;

Game Over.

Also, on a sidenote (regarding aspirin and other pills boosting your immune system), there are studies that show it actually does the opposite, in particular taking pills like penicilin. What it does is inhibit your immune system from forming within itself all of the antibodies necessary to address the threat so that in the future your body doesn't have the proper defense within itself to defend against impurities, as well as the impurities becoming resistant to the antibiotics, which means you'd need to either take stronger, more expensive antibiotics and make the pharmaceutical companies very happy, or allow the impurity to run its course in your body and allow your body to create the needed antibodies and destroy the impurity, as well as store the new antibody compound in your cellular membranes for future use.

Well to answer the first part. When you get hypothermia no immune system doesn't help but what does? Homeostasis(big word to say that it's your body's automatic response to regulate itself back to norm)
You don't think that based on what we already know from Supes that his response won't be as quick if not much quicker than a human?
SO icicles forming in the guy's bloodstream? Yes it will regulate itself and won't allow his blood to freeze over.
Air bubbles? There were no mention of that in your scenario.
Second-Whether these studies are new or in practice. Many doctors still prescribe aspirin because it acts as a blood thinner and by reducing the viscosity of the blood you aid it by not allowing clots to develop.
Bobby could strike Supe before his nervous system reacts?
Highly doubtful. Synapses fire at a rate comparable to that of the speed of thought which is interconnected by the way. You think Bobby will act quicker than the speed of thought? I sure as hell don't believe that.

LordFear
Originally posted by FieryBalrog
your immune system does not protect you from water. Or air, for that matter. Your immune system only protects you from pathogens and rogue cells. Basically, living things and semi-living organics like viruses. Not H20.

For the same reason, your immune system no matter how advanced wont protect you from heavy metal poisoning, swallowing acid, etc.


I gotta disagree with you on that a little.
When you get lead poisoning, although you still get sick, without the immune you just would die. It appears that the immune ain't doing nothing but really it is,it'sjust that it's not enough.
Again people, stop comparing Supes's physiology to humans.
Basically we just don't know jack about kryptonian medecine.
How can we argue something when on the flip side of the coin, we don't have any info. One thing for sure is everything in Supe's body functions are vastly different from humans, so arguing what happens to us, is null in void when comparing to Supes.

manjaro
dude its not like its iceman vs me or you, this is superman we're talking about here, where in the superman encylopedia it says that all his natural abilites are increased a thousand fold compared to average humans, you know what that means? a thousand times more equipped at dealing with foreign substances. at the end of the day bobby would still be water you cant possibly tell me that a little bit of water with no magical or kryptonite properties is gonna harm him. i would be more accepting if somebody had said that iceman tries to control his moisture on a molecular level, key word being try. but to say that he'll turn into water and wreak havoc in is blood stream is ridiculous.

and another thing, if bobby is gonna be plain old water he would still be governed by the laws of physics. meaning that when you ingest water it doesnt go directly to your bloodstream it goes to your stomach and then absorbed in your intestines then redistributed in your bladder, and fecal matter. even if bobby wants to go to his lungs what do you think is gonna happen? just like when someone is drowning or you choke on some kind of liquid, once it gets in your air passage you gag and cough it right back out. thats one of your body's natural reactions, and since superman is the kind of guy that can blow a hurricane bobby's water molecules would probably end up on the other side of the planet if he tried some dumb shit like that

Blair Wind

illadelph12

LordFear
Again how the hell can we compare that to an alien?
These feats that Bobby can do are towards humans/mutants where there make up are pretty much the same but you are talking about a Kryptonian. I mean how hard is to to understand. It's comparing apples and oranges. Do you think Bobby could do that to an eternal, titan, inhuman or a celestrial, kree, shiar or other countless races?
We just don't know cuz it's never been done and those feats are pertaining to humans/mutants. I mean were seriously beating a dead horse here people. C'mon already!!!

illadelph12
Originally posted by LordFear
Again how the hell can we compare that to an alien?
These feats that Bobby can do are towards humans/mutants where there make up are pretty much the same but you are talking about a Kryptonian. I mean how hard is to to understand. It's comparing apples and oranges. Do you think Bobby could do that to an eternal, titan, inhuman or a celestrial, kree, shiar or other countless races?
We just don't know cuz it's never been done and those feats are pertaining to humans/mutants. I mean were seriously beating a dead horse here people. C'mon already!!!

Are you talking the inversion angle or the inhabiting the body fluids and attacking from within angle L.F.?

Either way, it's not a matter of his physiology, it's a matter of his body composition.

The "inversion" (stopping the motion of atoms) should work regardless of what species Superman is because his body is still composed of atoms and molecules, it would simply be a matter of Iceman bypassing his biomatrix to do it, which he could do by inhabiting the moisture of Supes own body, then stopping the motion of Supes atoms from the fluid in his cells.

The "attack and freeze his brain/heart/both simultaneously from within" attack should also work if Iceman can bypass Supes biomatrix by inhabiting Supes body fluids. I don't think his body could react before Bobby acts, no matter how fast his brain impulse fires. He can't react until the stimuli becomes present and by then he's already dead from a simultaneous stroke and heart attack.

Bobby could also steal all the moisture from Supes body and use it to create a new body for himself by inhabiting it and drawing it out of him at a cellular level. That would kill him also.

Superherovandal
Hello we don't even know if Iceman can pass his bioaura which i doubt.

illadelph12
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Hello we don't even know if Iceman can pass his bioaura which i doubt.

Yes, we do:

Superman breathes air and drinks water, and his body metabolizes them both, which means that Bobby has a way inside of Superman's biomatrix by inhabiting the moisture Supes naturally intakes, then attacking when he gets inside.

Superherovandal
Then why is he not affected by poison gas?

black robb
Originally posted by illadelph12
Yes, we do:

Superman breathes air and drinks water, and his body metabolizes them both, which means that Bobby has a way inside of Superman's biomatrix by inhabiting the moisture Supes naturally intakes, then attacking when he gets inside. but he is superstrong,which means his lungs are stronger as well so he could fight while holding his breath for a long time

black robb
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Then why is he not affected by poison gas? super immune system

snoopdogg
Superman bio matrix protects him from the vaccum of space. What makes you guys think Iceman could do anything to him at all?

illadelph12
Originally posted by black robb
but he is superstrong,which means his lungs are stronger as well so he could fight while holding his breath for a long time

Iceman can still enter his body along the moisture naturally present in the air, and then inhabit the saliva in Supes mouth after entering through his nose, then move about freely.

Unless, of course, Supes is going to fight plugging his nose, holding his breath, with ear plugs, anal plugs, and a condom on.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Superherovandal
hello not only are his outsides invulnerable and super-strong but his insides are just as potent. So why would the ice affect him? His immune system protects him from water? Why has he not dehydrated?

Creshosk
Originally posted by illadelph12
Iceman can still enter his body along the moisture naturally present in the air, and then inhabit the saliva in Supes mouth after entering through his nose, then move about freely.

Unless, of course, Supes is going to fight plugging his nose, holding his breath, with ear plugs, anal plugs, and a condom on. Twio words: Sweat glands.

FieryBalrog
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Then why is he not affected by poison gas?

water is not the same as poison gas. Poison gas can be differentiated from regular non poisonous gases like air and oxygen. Water cannot be differentiated from water.

DrDoom
About the moisture inversion pic:

Noone on that X-team had anywhere NEAR the invulnerability of Superman, so how do we know that it would even work on him?
Plus, you guys need to stop comparing Supe's physiology to humans. I mean, the guy has internal organs that absorb sunlight, produce forcefields, gives him telekinetic strength, etc.
We don't even know how much Kryptonian's phys. differs from a human, but it is by a lot. Why do you think he can't have a child with Lois?

Superman is internally and externally shielded from harm. I still doubt Bobby could do anything except cause him minor discomfort.

illadelph12
Bump...

ZephroCarnelian
Iceman couldn't even make Supes feel cold.

Every cell of his body is shielded from harm, internally and externally.

Only magic and Knite can bypass it.

And the only way to damage him without the aid of those is by unleashing tremendous punishment for a prolonged period of time.

Bobby cannot do that. Moisture inversion or none, Supes' cells are protected, sheilded, held firmly together and in place by his bio-field.

Nothing that Iceman can do will harm him.

phillymax
has this moisture inversion attempt been tried to any hero/villian to the point where it can kill someone? that sounds a little crazy...

while we're on teh topic of crazy abilities, why can't superman just heat himself up to an temperature where water, or water vapor (for iceman fanboys theory) just evaporates and can't enter his body????

ZephroCarnelian
He wouldn't need to.

*BAAAM! HEAT VISION!*

Bobby turns into water vapour.

Supes breathes him in.

Flies into space.

Breathes out.

Bobby floats off into deep space as ice-crystals.

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