US Lied to Britain Over Use of Napalm in Iraq War

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PVS
US lied to Britain over use of napalm in Iraq war
By Colin Brown, Deputy Political Editor
17 June 2005

American officials lied to British ministers over the use of "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq.

Yesterday's disclosure led to calls by MPs for a full statement to the Commons and opened ministers to allegations that they held back the facts until after the general election.

Despite persistent rumours of injuries among Iraqis consistent with the use of incendiary weapons such as napalm, Adam Ingram, the Defence minister, assured Labour MPs in January that US forces had not used a new generation of incendiary weapons, codenamed MK77, in Iraq.

But Mr Ingram admitted to the Labour MP Harry Cohen in a private letter obtained by The Independent that he had inadvertently misled Parliament because he had been misinformed by the US. "The US confirmed to my officials that they had not used MK77s in Iraq at any time and this was the basis of my response to you," he told Mr Cohen. "I regret to say that I have since discovered that this is not the case and must now correct the position."

Mr Ingram said 30 MK77 firebombs were used by the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in the invasion of Iraq between 31 March and 2 April 2003. They were used against military targets "away from civilian targets", he said. This avoids breaching the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), which permits their use only against military targets.

Britain, which has no stockpiles of the weapons, ratified the convention, but the US did not.

The confirmation that US officials misled British ministers led to new questions last night about the value of the latest assurances by the US. Mr Cohen said there were rumours that the firebombs were used in the US assault on the insurgent stronghold in Fallujah last year, claims denied by the US. He is tabling more questions seeking assurances that the weapons were not used against civilians.

Mr Ingram did not explain why the US officials had misled him, but the US and British governments were accused of a cover-up. The Iraq Analysis Group, which campaigned against the war, said the US authorities only admitted the use of the weapons after the evidence from reporters had become irrefutable.

Mike Lewis, a spokesman for the group, said: "The US has used internationally reviled weapons that the UK refuses to use, and has then apparently lied to UK officials, showing how little weight the UK carries in influencing American policy."

He added: "Evidence that Mr Ingram had given false information to Parliament was publicly available months ago. He has waited until after the election to admit to it - a clear sign of the Government's embarrassment that they are doing nothing to restrain their own coalition partner in Iraq."

The US State Department website admitted in the run-up to the election that US forces had used MK77s in Iraq. Protests were made by MPs, but it was only this week that Mr Ingram confirmed the reports were true.

Mike Moore, the Liberal Democrat defence spokes-man, said: "It is very serious that this type of weapon was used in Iraq, but this shows the US has not been completely open with the UK. We are supposed to have a special relationship.

"It has also taken two months for the minister to clear this up. This is welcome candour, but it will raise fresh questions about how open the Government wished to be... before the election."

The MK77 bombs, an evolution of the napalm used in Vietnam and Korea, carry kerosene-based jet fuel and polystyrene so that, like napalm, the gel sticks to structures and to its victims. The bombs lack stabilising fins, making them far from precise.


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=647397

Bardock42
Originally posted by PVS
man wtf

im not reading all that.

Deano
goddamn lying sons a bitches

KidRock
The United States lied? NO WAY.. this is breaking news. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Deano
u must be proud....

MetallicaT
ha...we got you good you ****ers!

wink

TrAnCeDuO
Originally posted by MetallicaT
ha...we got you good you ****ers!

wink
i dont think this something to be proud of.

KidRock
Originally posted by MetallicaT
ha...we got you good you ****ers!

wink

lmao.

Bardock42
Originally posted by KidRock
lmao.

Originally posted by TrAnCeDuO
i dont think this something to be proud of.

eggmayo
I don't see the massive significance, or why we should care.

Bardock42
Ok, so this actually is important...the US does everything they can to stop the world to get a better place why didn't they sign that stupid treaty....now seriously napalm bombs are not necessary and even if, doesn''t the US state with that that they would also use it against civilians if they feel like it. Another thing is that I think you have to be fair and honest with your partners....how can such a partnership work if one of the partners lies to their allies....


Originally posted by PVS
Mike Moore, the Liberal Democrat defence spokes-man, said: "It is very serious that this type of weapon was used in Iraq, but this shows the US has not been completely open with the UK. We are supposed to have a special relationship.

That makes me kind of sad...the Brits get betrayed, swindeled and what not and they still think they should stick with the US rather that with Europe. In Europe they would be the leaders (of a moral organisation) while with the US they are just the puppy that has to do what the US says (which at the moment doesn't seem to be too moral to me)

eggmayo
Originally posted by Bardock42
Ok, so this actually is important...the US does everything they can to stop the world to get a better place why didn't they sign that stupid treaty....now seriously napalm bombs are not necessary and even if, doesn''t the US state with that that they would also use it against civilians if they feel like it. Another thing is that I think you have to be fair and honest with your partners....how can such a partnership work if one of the partners lies to their allies....

The lying bit I can understand, but in some situations it might prove better to use napalm and other incendiary devices rather than bombs.

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
The lying bit I can understand, but in some situations it might prove better to use napalm and other incendiary devices rather than bombs.
Yeah you are right...it burns people much better so they die slowly and painfully...hail to napalm bombs.

Ok I agree maybe it is sometimes tactically smarter to yuse napalm bombs on military targets, but lying aboot it is bad....and it doesn't seem so important since your country doesn't have any napalm in stock....

eggmayo
What if there is underground bunkers with bombs or HE in? Seems smarter to use napalm then.

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
What if there is underground bunkers with bombs or HE in? Seems smarter to use napalm then.

What if there is a country that didn't do anything to you,...ever.....seems smarter not to use napalm then...oh and by that logic its a pretty smart idea to us A-Bombs (or worse)......oh no wait some oil might turn gree.

eggmayo
Originally posted by Bardock42
What if there is a country that didn't do anything to you,...ever.....seems smarter not to use napalm then...oh and by that logic its a pretty smart idea to us A-Bombs (or worse)......oh no wait some oil might turn gree.
laughing Yeah good point. I have no idea why I'm arguing, I just don't really care for war or politics erm

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
laughing Yeah good point. I have no idea why I'm arguing, I just don't really care for war or politics erm

Yes well....then....I don't know why you arte argueing stick out tongue

eggmayo
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes well....then....I don't know why you arte argueing stick out tongue
I'm 15, I legally have to argue or annoy all the time.

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
I'm 15, I legally have to argue or annoy all the time.

This is true.....so I forgive you.......I now totally agree with you...,they have all right to do whatever they want and lie to you...

eggmayo
erm I'm not stopping them.

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
erm I'm not stopping them.
No you got it all wrong...you have to argue the other side now...what kind of 15 year old are you?

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Bardock42
That makes me kind of sad...the Brits get betrayed, swindeled and what not and they still think they should stick with the US rather that with Europe. In Europe they would be the leaders (of a moral organisation) while with the US they are just the puppy that has to do what the US says (which at the moment doesn't seem to be too moral to me)

You have GOT to be kidding me.

This silly idea that Europe is more moral than the US is poisoning people's minds. The amount of shit that Europe gets up to is just as bad. The US never bombed Greenpeace, for a start. The only thing the US gets is a greater scale, simply because it is more powerful.

It's always bloody annoying when the US lies but I'll tell you this for nothing- Europe lies to the UK ten times as much.

And we likewise get ten times more hassle from the Continent than we ever do from the States, and this other poisonous idea that we only ever do what the States wants is utterly false as well. People whoi believe these thinbgs are living in a dreamland.

BackFire
Fact of life #1 - Everyone lies.

Bardock42
Well I am sorry but I think you get like the best cut financuially in Europe....plus at least we try to have some morals, we don't attack other countries for no reason for example, in germany it even says in the constitution that we can't fight an offensive war...and yes I know that the UK does what they think is right although it kind of seems that they get treated by the US as if they were their tools...

eggmayo
Originally posted by BackFire
Fact of life #1 - Everyone lies.
Fact #2 - Noone really cares what other people do thousands of miles away.

Bardock42
Originally posted by eggmayo
Fact #2 - Noone really cares what other people do thousands of miles away.

Hmm some do

Ushgarak
Best cut financially! Hahahahaha! We're the second greatest net loser in Europe! We pay a damn fortune into that thing. We're not Spain. CAP screws us over royally.

Every nation in the EU is doing one thing alone- looking out for itself. There is no pretence of that being some better option.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Best cut financially! Hahahahaha! We're the second greatest net loser in Europe! We pay a damn fortune into that thing. We're not Spain. CAP screws us over royally.

Every nation in the EU is doing one thing alone- looking out for itself. There is no pretence of that being some better option.

Well, maybe but should it be that way?
Oh and could you post a statistic to show that its not that way....because I have to admit I ever saw one

Justice Pie
What else is new?

Originally posted by Deano
u must be proud....

Quite proud, actually.

Who was it that helped out your little island when someone named Hitler came goose-stepping down your street?

Amazing how soon everyone forgets these things and how quickly good people can get lumped in with stoopid politicians.
I never said we didn't napalm Iraq. So I didn't lie to you. Such ignorance.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Justice Pie
What else is new?



Quite proud, actually.

Who was it that helped out your little island when someone named Hitler came goose-stepping down your street?

Amazing how quickly good people can get lumped in with stoopid politicians.
I never said we didn't napalm Iraq. So I didn't lie to you. Such ignorance.

Yes but that happened 60 years ago...what have you done for tus lately?

Justice Pie
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes but that happened 60 years ago...what have you done for tus lately?

We knocked down your wall. big grin

BackFire
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes but that happened 60 years ago...what have you done for tus lately?


Not bombed you.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Justice Pie
We knocked down your wall. big grin

Err...no.....what next? You claim you beat the persians back then in greece....or maybe you started the french revolution What the f**k?

Bardock42
Originally posted by BackFire
Not bombed you.

Yes and we are very thankful for that.....good that you are so nice as to not bomb us because....wait what did we do again?

BackFire
Nothing.

What more do you want from us? We aren't bombing you or interfering in your countries affairs (at least in any major manner).

Bardock42
Originally posted by BackFire
Nothing.

What more do you want from us? We aren't bombing you or interfering in your countries affairs (at least in any major manner).

And this is nowadays considered as something good ........?

Well I bet by the people in Iraq it is.

Justice Pie
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes and we are very thankful for that.....good that you are so nice as to not bomb us because....wait what did we do again?

We beat the Persians in Greece and started the French Revolution.

BackFire
Yep.

But seriously, what more do you want us to do for you? Just hand out money or something?

Does your country need something that it can't get on its own?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Justice Pie
We beat the Persians in Greece and started the French Revolution.

Yup.................no expression .................stick out tongue................What the f**k?

Bardock42
Originally posted by BackFire
Yep.

But seriously, what more do you want us to do for you? Just hand out money or something?

Does your country need something that it can't get on its own?

No no....you misunderstood me...I don't want anything for my country...I just think people 60 years later can't always say but we beat hitler if you want to remain the country you were back then you better behave like they did back then.

Fishy
What a big surprise here, the US lied to its coalition partners... Britain should make a statement and leave Iraq.. Maybe it would make things go smoother and stop the lying. Or at least the lying about things that people will find out.

And Ush what the hell are you talking about

The Netherlands pays four times to the EU then the second country in the list, we get very little back in return. This was okay when we were still one of the richest country's in the world but we are number 5 or so now. Why are we still paying more? Britain shouldn't complain with it stupid cuts and discounts.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Fishy
What a big surprise here, the US lied to its coalition partners... Britain should make a statement and leave Iraq.. Maybe it would make things go smoother and stop the lying. Or at least the lying about things that people will find out.

And Ush what the hell are you talking about

The Netherlands pays four times to the EU then the second country in the list, we get very little back in return. This was okay when we were still one of the richest country's in the world but we are number 5 or so now. Why are we still paying more? Britain shouldn't complain with it stupid cuts and discounts.

Statistic..........please.

Justice Pie
Originally posted by Bardock42
No no....you misunderstood me...I don't want anything for my country...I just think people 60 years later can't always say but we beat hitler if you want to remain the country you were back then you better behave like they did back then.
How did we behave back then?
How are we so different now?
Try being an American before you badmouth us.

BackFire
He didn't badmouth us...

Bardock42
Originally posted by Justice Pie
How did we behave back then?
How are we so different now?
Try being an American before you badmouth us.

Yes because being an american is so hard roll eyes (sarcastic)
And I don't badmouth you..please understand that I am talking aboot the behaviour of your country.

First of all a good thing would be not to attack countries for no just reason.
Next maybe not lie to your partners or the UN anymore
Then be a role model for other countries....as you were back in WW I and WWII

Fishy

Bardock42

Justice Pie
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes because being an american is so hard roll eyes (sarcastic)
And I don't badmouth you..please understand that I am talking aboot the behaviour of your country.

First of all a good thing would be not to attack countries for no just reason.
Next maybe not lie to your partners or the UN anymore
Then be a role model for other countries....as you were back in WW I and WWII
I'll get right on that and give those politicians a nice little time out for being so deceitful, cause by god they must be the only ones to have ever done it.

Fishy
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah I think the Netherlands got a good point......as for the UK they get 4 Billion euro back every year...thats something now isn't it....

Yeah thats a pretty nice amount

Bardock42
Originally posted by Justice Pie
I'll get right on that and give those politicians a nice little time out for being so deceitful, cause by god they must be the only ones to have ever done it.
No of course not in no way...just don't claim to be the pinacle of moral standards if you are surely not......

Ushgarak

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Fishy
Yeah thats a pretty nice amount

A fraction of what we give OUT unfairly.

Even with the rebate we pay double that of France, and without it the figure would be ludicrous.

Justice Pie
Originally posted by Bardock42
No of course not in no way...just don't claim to be the pinacle of moral standards if you are surely not......

I don't recall claiming that.

Bardock42
But you are not the only one that pay a lot and don't get a lot....the thing is we hope that it will bring something good in the long run...why do we always have to think so nationalistic....


Originally posted by Justice Pie
I don't recall claiming that.

Yes, well just making sure...and don't play the beat hitler card again that doesn't justify innocent people in the middle east.

Justice Pie
Originally posted by Bardock42

Yes, well just making sure...and don't play the beat hitler card again that doesn't justify innocent people in the middle east.

Well, we still beat Hitler. Happy Dance

Anyways, the ME is another story and I'm too tired to indulge you in another argument.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Bardock42
But you are not the only one that pay a lot and don't get a lot....the thing is we hope that it will bring something good in the long run...why do we always have to think so nationalistic....

We do not pay that money into Europe simply to subsidise rich farmers who do not need subsidising.

That is where the money is going. It is not going to ANY worth cause; it is simply making western European agriculture richer than it needs to be, at the expense, incidentally, of the Third World, which is losing criminal amounts of money because they cannot trade fairly against these monstrous EU subsidies.

We see bugger all of that money because our agriculture system doesn't work the same way and we import most of our food.

Bottom line is- Europe is screwing us for money to line their own pockets. France then has the gall to turn around and say it is all our fault because of the Rebate, when they make FAR more out of the totally unfair CAP subsidies than we could ever dream of making.

This hypocritical nonsense will drive the UK away from Europe. We are losing from it. Our relationship with the US, however, benefits us. In fact, they pay us rather handsomely.

The EU's current attitude? To tell us to drop the rebate and make it even MORE unfair. It will not happen, and whilst the contemptible attitude continues, no lie about weapons use from the US- irritating as it is- is going to compare.

We're willing to pay for Europe. We're just not willing to pay to subiside other people who are hardly in need of subsidy. If it went out east or to Africa we could stomach it. We will not stomach European fat cats simply taking our money.

Whilst that situation continues the UK can only drift dfurther out.

Deano
Originally posted by Justice Pie
What else is new?



Quite proud, actually.

Who was it that helped out your little island when someone named Hitler came goose-stepping down your street?

Amazing how soon everyone forgets these things and how quickly good people can get lumped in with stoopid politicians.
I never said we didn't napalm Iraq. So I didn't lie to you. Such ignorance.

here we go
and whos forgot?
who said u was lying?
what are you goin on about?

Zilverz
Originally posted by Bardock42


That makes me kind of sad...the Brits get betrayed, swindeled and what not and they still think they should stick with the US rather that with Europe. In Europe they would be the leaders (of a moral organisation) while with the US they are just the puppy that has to do what the US says (which at the moment doesn't seem to be too moral to me)


If you paid attention in history class, It was the brits that disgused there ships as US ships during WWII so german uboats wouldnt blow them up .. and when the germans caught on they started blowing up all the boats. So lets not start using words like " betrayed "

Bardock42
Originally posted by Zilverz
If you paid attention in history class, It was the brits that disgused there ships as US ships during WWII so german uboats wouldnt blow them up .. and when the germans caught on they started blowing up all the boats. So lets not start using words like " betrayed "
yes but I remember in 1056 AD.........no seriously can't we stop with ancient history its aboot now.

Although Fishy as well as Ush have valueable points the thing is that the EU basically is a nice idea...of course there is a lot wrong but it would be sad if the idea gets destroyed because of some disagreements.

PVS
*ahem* napalm

the use of napalm...thats the topic isnt it?
and im sure we all believe that the bombing is completely
discriminate and we wont have to see images of children
burning alive, because napalm is such an accurate weapon.

WRONG

wtf is so different between using a chemical weapon and
burning people alive? isnt that one of the 4 big reasons we invaded
iraq? we should know because we heard bush sqawk them like a parrot:

-saddam had direct ties to al quaida and helped fund the 9/11 attacks: FALSE

-saddam posessed chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction: FALSE

-saddam was seekeng enriched uranium from africa: FALSE

-saddam used chemical weapons on his own people: TRUE

and might i add: HEY SADDAM!!!! thats OUR job!!!!!! STEP ASIDE AND WE'LL SHOW YOU HOW ITS DONE!!!!!!!!! oh but wait....we use napalm in iraqis, so thats better. lord knows its such a humane death to be saturated from head to toe with a highly flammable liquid and incinerated slowly. so humane. and im sure that somehow magically the only victims of such bombings are insurgents. yeah OK.

Bardock42
On the second thought there is one thing even worse aboot that....yes they lied to Britain...oh well not very nice but ok...it's a foreign country....but they didn't even reveal the Truth to their own people....so seriously WTF

Fishy
We have tons of threads about that already this is about Bush lying to England and about something else then the WMD's for a change...

Bardock42
Originally posted by Fishy
We have tons of threads about that already this is about Bush lying to England and about something else then the WMD's for a change...

Well yes but its still another thing added to the "Lying to the American Citizens" Thingy

PVS
Originally posted by Fishy
We have tons of threads about that already this is about Bush lying to England and about something else then the WMD's for a change...

ok, please post the link to the other thread about the U.S. using napalm and lying about it and i will ask the mods for a merge.

Fishy
I think you didn't understand what I was saying, probably my fault. I was saying this was a different thread then the others.

PVS
oh shit... sorry then

my mistake smile

Bardock42
Originally posted by PVS
oh shit... sorry then

my mistake smile

Indeed

PVS
Originally posted by Bardock42
Indeed

derp no expression

Bardock42
Originally posted by PVS
derp no expression


no expression pred

RedAlertv2
Might I remind everyone the reason the ME has so much trouble is because EUROPE basically drew lines in the sand and divided everyone into countries. Dont blame the US for cleaning up the mess

KharmaDog
Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Might I remind everyone the reason the ME has so much trouble is because EUROPE basically drew lines in the sand and divided everyone into countries. Dont blame the US for cleaning up the mess


If by "cleaning up the mess" you meant , "making things so much worse", then I see your point. No, wait...no I don't.

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