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The battlefield:

Reverse Dimension
http://www.marveldirectory.com/otherdimensions/reversedimension.htm



The participants:




Digimark007 Write-Up



Khellendros will post his own Write Up

yeee-haw!!

Are we seriously taking into fact that you're fighting in a reverse dimention?
So, if you punch, it'll knock you back instead of the person you're punching?
I seriously hope not!

well, well, well.....this should be a good match, but right now my vote is goin to khell mainly because he can easily exploit your weakness

What's his weakness? I didn't get that part.

Nice strategy, Khellendros...

I agree, very very nice.

long pig- his weakness is electricity(lightning) it negates all his connections to solar energy severly weakening him

Originally posted by stormfront13
long pig- his weakness is electricity(lightning) it negates all his connections to solar energy severly weakening him

yeah.... i'd planned to use that against him myself.....

Majestic didn't wreck the Eradicator's armour.... he reprogrammed it

i noticed the poor "no earhole" defence to BB's scream and knew straight away you'd jump on it... nice ...


i think i need more info on this reverse dimension before i vote

Originally posted by Scoobless
yeah.... i'd planned to use that against him myself.....

Majestic didn't wreck the Eradicator's armour.... he reprogrammed it

i noticed the poor "no earhole" defence to BB's scream and knew straight away you'd jump on it... nice ...


i think i need more info on this reverse dimension before i vote
He didn't wreck it because he liked Eradicator. Of all the heroes on DC earth, he respected Eradicator most. In order to reprogram the armor, though, he had to slice it open to get at the circuitry within. As for the reverse dimension thing... I'm kinda ignoring it for now because the description posted didn't really tell me much.

Wow SF, voting before I even get to counter-punch. That's fine...don't mind fighting with my back to the wall. Nice strategy Khell...now let's dance...



Nice try making it seem liking you win the physical match-up. Apollo is on Wildstorm's strongest team for a reason. And his base strength isn't far from Majestic. With extra time in the suit I won't pretend to know exactly where he is in terms of strength, but you definitely won't have the advantage...at best you're looking at a stalemate, at worst Majestic is outclassed.




Great...don't really need it. It was just insurance anyway. But it worked on him once, so even though it wouldn't completely mess him up, he'd have to concentrate to make sure I didn't get through his telepathic shields, which will hinder anything else you do.




You'll be dealing with me...you won't have time to think about the dragons. Apollo can fly and move hella-fast too (let's not forget his extensive training...actual combat-skill will be about the same) so you'll have your hands full with just me. And if you do take the time to take out the dragons, thet'll just give me an opening.

I'll stop quoting for a second and just address some of your points...

What makes you think BB's power will ever make it through my magical shields and armor? You go straight to assuming that you'll be messing with my brain-electrons. Let's not forget Loki can control matter within himself. He has demonstrated the ability to shape-shift multiple times. Any intrusion into his actual body will be quickly negated. When I can control the very matter within myself, any outside influence will be easily blocked and/or shrugged off.

Oh and the power from the screams is going through shields and armor too...not to mention that Apollo could withstand it anyway (see my initial write-up for exactly why he would)....the fact that it isn't technically a 'sound' doesn't mean anything.




Screw with my nervous system? No (explained earlier)
Heat Vision? Apollo has it too (he once covered the moon with it to defeat a massive group of aliens)
Superior Strength and speed? Hardly
Blow me apart with your voice? Not before I pound you to death and slice you open with magic, and I'll be healing faster too thanks to the suit.



Fun stuff, but how the hell are you going to get lightning inside me like that? The aforementioned electron manipulation has already been shot down, and Loki's shields are presumably air-tight (and have taken blows from Mjolnir). Also, let's not forget that in the issue you cite, A. The Authority is taken by surprise...Apollo isn't charged at all. B. The fight takes place at night. C. I have my power source right against me. Even if you manage to cut me off from my solar supply (which you can't), I've been charging for a long time, and will instantly be rejuvenated because of the suit.

You assume that you will hit me with electrical stuff once you've gotten through the armor...that'll take a long time, and you'd be talking out of your butt if you think I won't be pounding the crap out of you too during that time. You'll never get through the armor...the fight will be over long before that.

To even use his 'trump' card with the electrical stuff, Khell has to beat the crap out me first, which will never happen. I've shot down pretty much every one of his attacks. He'll get some hits in, but so will I...and I'll be healing faster and doing more damage.

-DM

Reverse dimension, eh? So if I kill myself, do I win? A bit confused...I'll try and look into it more before saying anything about the battlesfield affecting the outcome (though presumably we'd both be affected by it, so it probably won't confer an advantage one way or another).

-DM

And I'm only vaguely familiar with BB, and even less so with Maelstrom. Thus, the 'no earhole' argument...kinda learning as I go here, but I know enough to know that I have a decent chance at a win, or at the very least making it a helluva fight.

-DM

srry digi, buti usually vote as soon as i can so i don't miss the ending, but right now you have a huge chance at changing my vote

Cool SF. I understand though...the first few matches I was worried a bunch and was usually one of the first to vote.

All I ask is that you keep watching as the battle unfolds...I'll do everything I can to change your mind.

-DM

P.S. I still don't know much about the Reverse Dimension, but the site says it could be associated with Asgard. If it is, Loki will have an excellent chance of knowing what's going on. If any adjustments need to be made, my guy will be the first to make them.

ha ha, well i'm sure you'llcome up with sometin

Ha...Here we go. Here's a site that mentions the Reverse Dimension in passing. It is a reality where the "effect precedes the cause".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_fictional_historical_events

Loki should know about the Reverse Dimension. The Avengers have been there, and Marvel's site associates it with Asgard. A few thousand years of dimension hopping and Loki is bound to have been to this place...and he'll know what the hell is going on.

So when I come into the fight with my magical telepathy, the "effect" will precede its cause...and since I will have it up as the fight starts, presumably it will affect Majestic before the fight even begins. He won't even be ready for it, and so he'll hardly be shrugging it off. Loki will get his bearings quickly and begin to 'use' the world. Majestic won't even know what's going on, and he'll be getting physically hurt before I even throw the first punch. By the time he figures this out, I'll have a decided edge, and will have been using him as a punching bag for a while.

And any of Khell's attacks are discussed in my earlier counter-strategy to Khell's write-up...so I really like my chances, especially with this new development.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nice try making it seem liking you win the physical match-up. Apollo is on Wildstorm's strongest team for a reason. And his base strength isn't far from Majestic. With extra time in the suit I won't pretend to know exactly where he is in terms of strength, but you definitely won't have the advantage...at best you're looking at a stalemate, at worst Majestic is outclassed.
Yeah, the most impressive feat you have for Apollo is lifting that big ass statue, that was skyscraper-height. You say he's porbably up to mountain lifting by now, and I say my character at his lowest strength starts out lifting mountain sized things. At worst, Blackstrom can only match you in strength, at best, he's leagues past you in strength.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Great...don't really need it. It was just insurance anyway. But it worked on him once, so even though it wouldn't completely mess him up, he'd have to concentrate to make sure I didn't get through his telepathic shields, which will hinder anything else you do.
Unless you can show me a time when Loki has contorlled a mind that was resisting him and still managed to cast spells or fend off someone coming to knock his head off, he's going to have a tough time forcing Blackstrom to even notice him.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You'll be dealing with me...you won't have time to think about the dragons. Apollo can fly and move hella-fast too (let's not forget his extensive training...actual combat-skill will be about the same) so you'll have your hands full with just me. And if you do take the time to take out the dragons, thet'll just give me an opening.
Yes, I will be dealing with you. Unfortunately, that's not a problem either. apollo has good speed when flying on set courses, but he's never shown Flash-level speed feats like Majestic has. And, Apollo was trained for a few years, maybe a decade to fight. Majestros has spent millenia fighting other super powered beings. Don't even try and compare their fighting skill.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What makes you think BB's power will ever make it through my magical shields and armor? You go straight to assuming that you'll be messing with my brain-electrons. Let's not forget Loki can control matter within himself. He has demonstrated the ability to shape-shift multiple times. Any intrusion into his actual body will be quickly negated. When I can control the very matter within myself, any outside influence will be easily blocked and/or shrugged off.
What makes you think his power CAN'T reach through your magical shields? And your armor is just physical protection, and doesn't count as your body, which means Blackstrom can blast his way through your shields and disintegrate your armor. Loki can control his own matter, not energy. No matter what form he takes, if it's living it will ahve a nervous system to attack. If I was tyring to manpulate the amtter that makes up his body, he wouldn't have to shrug it off, because it would be agaisnt the rules. All I'm doing is messing with the electrical impulses in his nervous system, which he cannot shrug off.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh and the power from the screams is going through shields and armor too...not to mention that Apollo could withstand it anyway (see my initial write-up for exactly why he would)....the fact that it isn't technically a 'sound' doesn't mean anything.
Yeah, well, BB's scream > Skrull-made nuke > "ten hiroshimas". You may survive it, but just like the Hulk and Gladiator you will get KNOCKED the F*** out.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Screw with my nervous system? No (explained earlier)
Heat Vision? Apollo has it too (he once covered the moon with it to defeat a massive group of aliens)
Superior Strength and speed? Hardly
Blow me apart with your voice? Not before I pound you to death and slice you open with magic, and I'll be healing faster too thanks to the suit.
Screw with your nervous system? Yes. Control the electrons traveling through your brain. Heat vision? Apollo may have somethind similar, but mine has been shown to slice through Kryptonian armor in seconds. Superior strength and speed? Totally. I lift mountains and move planets before upping my strength, I fly at multiples of light and react at a nanosecond's notice. You can't pound me to death if you can't hit me, same with your magic. And the suit won't be healing you when I've demolished it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fun stuff, but how the hell are you going to get lightning inside me like that? The aforementioned electron manipulation has already been shot down, and Loki's shields are presumably air-tight (and have taken blows from Mjolnir).
Presumably air tight means nothing, and I'm sorry, but my guy is a WEE bit stronger than Thor is.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, let's not forget that in the issue you cite, A. The Authority is taken by surprise...Apollo isn't charged at all. B. The fight takes place at night. C. I have my power source right against me. Even if you manage to cut me off from my solar supply (which you can't), I've been charging for a long time, and will instantly be rejuvenated because of the suit.

A: Taken by surprise?? The only reason they came down to the planet was because the Doctor called them in for help. He even todl the bad guys that he told his friends exactly how to take them down, which means he must have given them some idea of their powers. If Apollo wasn't charged he wouldn't have been flying at all. He had a charge, and it was taken out by a lightning strike.

B: Doesn't matter, is there even a sun in this place we're fighting? I doubt it.

C: What power source? That crappy armor I've just sliced to pieces with my heat vision? Yeah, wouldn't count on that. Doesn't matter how big of a charge you have, once I keep you from renewing yoru charge I can just keep hitting you until you pass out.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You assume that you will hit me with electrical stuff once you've gotten through the armor...that'll take a long time, and you'd be talking out of your butt if you think I won't be pounding the crap out of you too during that time. You'll never get through the armor...the fight will be over long before that.
No, I know I'll hit you with electron blasts once I get through your armor, and it won't take time. Majestic kicked Eradicator free, and gouged a long line into his armor with one short blast of laser vision. You're welcome to try pounding the crap out of me, but I'm the better fight and stronger, so I wouldn't place too much faith in landing a hit. Plus, did I mention that my force field is still up? Yeah.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
To even use his 'trump' card with the electrical stuff, Khell has to beat the crap out me first, which will never happen. I've shot down pretty much every one of his attacks. He'll get some hits in, but so will I...and I'll be healing faster and doing more damage.
Actually, no, I don't ahve to beat the crap out of you, I just have to cut open or disintegrate your armor, which will only take seconds. You've tried shooting down my attacks, but have failed. And the healing only lasts as long as that silly Kryptonian armor can stand up to my heat vision. So, enjoy your whole second of fast healing before getting your ass kicked.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Ha...Here we go. Here's a site that mentions the Reverse Dimension in passing. It is a reality where the "effect precedes the cause".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_fictional_historical_events

Loki should know about the Reverse Dimension. The Avengers have been there, and Marvel's site associates it with Asgard. A few thousand years of dimension hopping and Loki is bound to have been to this place...and he'll know what the hell is going on.

So when I come into the fight with my magical telepathy, the "effect" will precede its cause...and since I will have it up as the fight starts, presumably it will affect Majestic before the fight even begins. He won't even be ready for it, and so he'll hardly be shrugging it off. Loki will get his bearings quickly and begin to 'use' the world. Majestic won't even know what's going on, and he'll be getting physically hurt before I even throw the first punch. By the time he figures this out, I'll have a decided edge, and will have been using him as a punching bag for a while.
Find one issue where Loki was in that dimension or was even talking about the dimension, or you don't get to claim he knows how it works. So your telepathy starts working before the fight starts? Great, that just means he'll go into the fight already ignoring it, making it even less effective when they are actually getting down to the nitty gritty.

Welcome to page 2...more warm, fuzzy, brawling goodness to come...



Actually his most impressive feat was stalemating that telepath who gained the strength of those he controlled (from the same issue). Eventually he loses his charge (and the fight is, again, regrettably for Apollo, at night) but the guy had over half the world's population controlled (70% according to the Authority) and at one point punched Apollo around the world...literally. And Apollo stands up to him. That, much more than the skyscraper, would put Apollo in the Million+ ton category, even by safe estimates (multi-million ton category if we're looking at max potential). So yeah, Apollo's tough as hell and so is Majestic...trying to claim one is stronger than the other might just be fanciful guessing...but you definitely don't have the massive advantage you think you do. I'd stand by my claim that Apollo would be stronger, but neither of us can probably claim that definitively. But there (above) is my justification for the claim.



If I'm not mistaken, Majestic and Superman stalemate each other in their (brief) fight and Supes gets the only sure hit in on Majestic. If he was "Flash-like" that would never happen. Majestic is a good fighter, and I wasn't claiming Apollo was better...only that he has training too and could hold his own in the skill department. We'll both be getting our hits in on the other. Mine will be at least as strong, probably more, and I'll still be healing a lot faster due to my armor.




What makes you think it CAN? Loki's matter manipulation powers mean he has control over particles that small. He won't let anything through that easily.



The armor has withstood barrages from Superman (including Supes' vision-attack). Zod once broke Supes' jaw. The only reason Zod was killed in the comics was when he had his armor off (he then became weakened and crumpled against Supes when he tried to attack). It isn't indestructable, but it'll take a while to get through. And I'll remind you again that Apollo has sun-powered heat vision that has inoculated the moon. The Moon! I'm not going to stand and let you slice my armor with your laser vision...I'll be flying, counter-attacking, and hitting you with my own vision-attack. And anything that hits you will be hitting you directly. With me, it's going through shields and armor first. Add that to my healing factor and you'll be hurting a lot sooner than I will.

And I mentioned the fight that you cited and said that there wasn't any sun. Had there been, Apollo would have only been temporarily weakened and could've resumed the fight shortly thereafter. No Cap clone would've been beating him then. In this fight, I'll be more charged to begin with, will have my power source against me, and your plan still assumes that you'll be rid of my armor in the first seconds of combat, which is completely ridiculous. If you could get rid of my shields, armor, and catch me that quick, sure..you'd have an easy win. But it will take a while, and as previously stated, we'll both be getting our hits in and Majestic will be hurting before long.

-DM

Bedtime...but my case should be pretty well summarized above me here.

One last thing...kind of a summary of everything I've said up to this point with a few added things...

Loki once put his head back on after it was chopped off and suffered no ill affects, and I'm healing fast because of my suit. Khell's guy will have to completely destroy me to take me out, and in the meantime I'll be getting my own hits in, both magical and physical, that will do more to Majestic than his hits will do to me. Blackstrom is going through magical shields, Kryptonian armor, and Apollo's charged body. Me? I'll just be hitting Majestic. My suit has charged Apollo to at least Majestic level (most likely higher..see above for examples) and it isn't indestructable, but with me flying around, fighting, phasing, etc. I'll be lots harder to take down than Khell seems to think. And for his "drain my solar charge" strategy to work, he has to get past my shields and armor. I have strength to match, heat-vision to match, and magic to make myself more elusive and add some extra firepower. The battlefield is interesting, but probably conveys no special advantage to either one of us. Nuf with this...I'm tired...good fight so far Khell.

-DM

P.S. But if "effect precedes cause" in the Reverse Dimension, since we're fighting to the death, wouldn't one of us (whoever is the loser) just be dead as soon as the fight starts?? Kinda funny to think about, but it doesn't change my strategy.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Actually his most impressive feat was stalemating that telepath who gained the strength of those he controlled (from the same issue). Eventually he loses his charge (and the fight is, again, regrettably for Apollo, at night) but the guy had over half the world's population controlled (70% according to the Authority) and at one point punched Apollo around the world...literally. And Apollo stands up to him. That, much more than the skyscraper, would put Apollo in the Million+ ton category, even by safe estimates (multi-million ton category if we're looking at max potential). So yeah, Apollo's tough as hell and so is Majestic...trying to claim one is stronger than the other might just be fanciful guessing...but you definitely don't have the massive advantage you think you do. I'd stand by my claim that Apollo would be stronger, but neither of us can probably claim that definitively. But there (above) is my justification for the claim.
Standing up to someone does not count as being on anywhere close to equal footing with them. It just means it took a few moments before Apollo got demolished by that guy. And, his charge doesn't deplete as rapidly as you seem to think it does. A good solar charge can keep Apollo in good fighting strength for days. It's only when he's spent an extended period of time out of direct sunlight that he wears down his solar charge.

You have your justification for your claims of strength and I have mine. I guess we could just assume they are about even in plain physical strength.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If I'm not mistaken, Majestic and Superman stalemate each other in their (brief) fight and Supes gets the only sure hit in on Majestic. If he was "Flash-like" that would never happen.
First of all, that was energy Supes(who pulled of some other really impressive strength feats during his run from what I hear), and the very first punch in the fight is landed by Supes because he started it. After that, they go off the page, though when we see them again, neither looks the worse for wear. He took one punch from a guy of comparable speed, Apollo does not have comparable speed.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What makes you think it CAN? Loki's matter manipulation powers mean he has control over particles that small. He won't let anything through that easily.
Shapeshifting does not equal matter manipulation. And read your bio for Loki, it specificalyl says it's EXTERNAL objects that he can transmute and change. There goes your internal matter manipulation defense.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The armor has withstood barrages from Superman (including Supes' vision-attack). Zod once broke Supes' jaw. The only reason Zod was killed in the comics was when he had his armor off (he then became weakened and crumpled against Supes when he tried to attack). It isn't indestructable, but it'll take a while to get through.
Withstanding physical blows is not the same as withstanding matter manipulation on a subatomic scale. And heat vision is not the same as laser vision. Majestic has cut open Kryptonian armor before and can do it again with ease. I have two distinct methods of depriving you of one of your best advantages.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And I'll remind you again that Apollo has sun-powered heat vision that has inoculated the moon. The Moon! I'm not going to stand and let you slice my armor with your laser vision...I'll be flying, counter-attacking, and hitting you with my own vision-attack. And anything that hits you will be hitting you directly. With me, it's going through shields and armor first. Add that to my healing factor and you'll be hurting a lot sooner than I will.
You don't need to remind me, I know. But Majestic has taken huge blasts of energy beofre that have failed to crack his suit, which is actually body armor itself. And that assumes you'll get past my own shield. You know, the one that stands up to MX Peacekeeper missiles?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And I mentioned the fight that you cited and said that there wasn't any sun. Had there been, Apollo would have only been temporarily weakened and could've resumed the fight shortly thereafter. No Cap clone would've been beating him then.
What's your point? We're in another dimension, does it even have a sun? And if so, Apollo was keyed to Earth's sun, there's no evidence he can draw power from another star.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
In this fight, I'll be more charged to begin with, will have my power source against me, and your plan still assumes that you'll be rid of my armor in the first seconds of combat, which is completely ridiculous. If you could get rid of my shields, armor, and catch me that quick, sure..you'd have an easy win. But it will take a while, and as previously stated, we'll both be getting our hits in and Majestic will be hurting before long.
Uou'll be more charged, but I'll have more voltage to bring to bear. Your power source will only be with you for as long as it takes for me to strip you of it. I don't NEED to remove it that soon to win, but I will because there's no point in dragging out a fight like this. It won't take a while to knock down your shields and armor. I am far above any feat of strength Thor by himself can match, and have two ways of taking your armor out in moments. It's just downhill from there.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Loki once put his head back on after it was chopped off and suffered no ill affects, and I'm healing fast because of my suit. Khell's guy will have to completely destroy me to take me out, and in the meantime I'll be getting my own hits in, both magical and physical, that will do more to Majestic than his hits will do to me.
Yes, his asgardian/giant body. Not Apollo's modified human body. And you aren't exactly Wolverine here, you are severely overstating his healing powers. And you WON'T be getting very many hits in, because I'm just as strong as you, faster than you, and the more experienced fighter.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Blackstrom is going through magical shields, Kryptonian armor, and Apollo's charged body. Me? I'll just be hitting Majestic.
Shields that even Thor would bring down, and Kryptonian armor that gets sliced through with one blast of laser vision. You on the other hand will be TRYING desperately to hit Majestic who is wearing his own armored suit, and surrounded by one of Black Bolt's force fields and moving much faster than you.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
My suit has charged Apollo to at least Majestic level (most likely higher..see above for examples) and it isn't indestructable, but with me flying around, fighting, phasing, etc.
Your charge is soon to be depleted with one good jolt from Black Bolt's electron powers. Flying is useless, because I am faster. Teleporting does no good, I'll just turn around and have a fist ready to meet you just as you rematerialize, phasing is no good for the reasons I've mentioned above.

I can attack each and every one of your strengths, take you apart piece by piece, all the while doing it at speeds you can't match.

http://jerome.galica.free.fr/mr%20T.gif
Mr.T is satisfied with the debate. Mr.T says says keep it up.

T's a FOO..... and i don't appreciate all the Thor bashing going on here....


has anyone ever read a story set in the reverse dimension?.... what happened and how does it really affect stuff?

K, originally Apollo couldn't even stand up to this guy or begin to hurt him. In their fight, the telepath is clearly hurting, Apollo takes a punch from him (a punch that would have originally sent him around the planet) and is only mildly troubled by it, and stands up to him for quite a while. I'm not saying Apollo was stronger or better, but he was close. Even if he's half of the telepath's strength, he's still in the Million+ Ton category (I'm assuming the average person the telepath controls can press around 100 pounds...I could provide my exact calculations if need be), and he's probably a lot closer to him than that. So my justification for saying Apollo is stronger, in my mind, stands up pretty well to criticism.

And no, my charge doesn't deplete super-rapidly...thanks for making that point. That should be taken into account this whole fight. I have a massive charge that doesn't deplete rapidly...thanks for noticing that Khell.



Actually, the very definition of shape-shifting is internal matter manipulation, so my argument stands in full force.



Matter manipulation...dealt with above. And no, laser vision isn't the same as heat vision...but they both do a helluva lot of damage. You'll be hurting from mine too...and with Apollo's "spread" effect with his heat-vision (from the moon incident) one could easily surmise that I'll be able to hit you with mine a lot more easily than vice-versa.



I said at the beginning Majestic's a beast...but I'm half tempted to bring leonidas in here to discuss Thor's many feats of unbelievable strength (or Superman/Apollo/etc. for that matter). Majestic might be slightly better than your average Supes clone, but you're giving him way too much credit. Besides, Thor's the pinnacle of all that is cool *coughvoteformescoobcough*.

-DM

1. Loki's powers, including replacing a lopped off head without incident, derive from his magical powers and have nothing to do with what body he is in. He'd be able to it just as easily with Apollo's body. And this very feat speaks to my earlier argument of magical internal matter control...this is just more fuel for the argument.
2. Healing factor. Let's take Volume 2, Issue 12. Jenny Fractal has punched a hole in Apollo's chest and is holding his heart in her hand. He manages to get away but is severely injured. They take him away and teleport him to where the rest of the group is...the Engineer sets up an artificial sunlight source to help him heal. Before the end of the page, no more than a minute or so (The Authority is in a hurry after all...the multiverse is imploding in on itself) Apollo is up and talking. I don't think I'm overestimating my healing-rate at all. With the uber-charge I'll have from being in the suit so long, if anything I'm underestimating it.
3. Just as strong?...debatable. I'd say no, but probably about even. Faster?...in flight sure, in fighting slightly. But we'll both get our hits in. More experienced fighter?...sure, but Apollo has oodles of experience too, and again I think this is a moot point.



Again with the Thor bashing? Though Thor might have stopped Loki's plans plenty of times, Loki's shields have withstood Mjolnir blasts plenty of times. And between a good combination of flying, fighting, phasing, etc. I'll be dishing it out as much as taking punishment...and it'll still take you much longer than you think to get through my layers of shielding and actually start hurting me. In the meantime, Majestic will be toast.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
K, originally Apollo couldn't even stand up to this guy or begin to hurt him. In their fight, the telepath is clearly hurting, Apollo takes a punch from him (a punch that would have originally sent him around the planet) and is only mildly troubled by it, and stands up to him for quite a while. I'm not saying Apollo was stronger or better, but he was close. Even if he's half of the telepath's strength, he's still in the Million+ Ton category (I'm assuming the average person the telepath controls can press around 100 pounds...I could provide my exact calculations if need be), and he's probably a lot closer to him than that. So my justification for saying Apollo is stronger, in my mind, stands up pretty well to criticism.
Saying he's close doesn't actually make it true. Until the Doctor broke his link to the Earth's population, Apollo was barely an annoyance. You seem to be forgetting that Majestic is increasing his strength as well, when his base strength is already near or equal to your suped up Apollo's.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And no, my charge doesn't deplete super-rapidly...thanks for making that point. That should be taken into account this whole fight. I have a massive charge that doesn't deplete rapidly...thanks for noticing that Khell.
It doesn't deplete rapidly when he's fighting normally. When he expells large amount of stored energy or, say, gets hit by lightning, his charge dwindles a lot quicker.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Actually, the very definition of shape-shifting is internal matter manipulation, so my argument stands in full force.
Yes, in a sense it is matter manipulation, but not on the subatomic level. Read the bio, he only shapeshifts into living things, which implies a similarity in materials between all his forms. He's changing fromt he flesh of a god/giant to the flesh of a bird or bear or whatever, not flesh to steel or flesh to water. At best, he's manipulating on a molecular scale, which gives him no control over particles like electrons.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Matter manipulation...dealt with above. And no, laser vision isn't the same as heat vision...but they both do a helluva lot of damage. You'll be hurting from mine too...and with Apollo's "spread" effect with his heat-vision (from the moon incident) one could easily surmise that I'll be able to hit you with mine a lot more easily than vice-versa.
You dealt with Loki's matter manipulation, not mine. Shapeshifting is a bad idea, because his armor is made to fit one size, and it does nothing to stop me from turning your armor to dust.

And, just because you hit me doesn't mean it will do any damage. An omni-directional blast is going to be much weaker than two focused beams, and this is hitting a near-invulnerable guy who has a force field up and is wearing a suit that has survived a nuclear explosion intact.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I said at the beginning Majestic's a beast...but I'm half tempted to bring leonidas in here to discuss Thor's many feats of unbelievable strength (or Superman/Apollo/etc. for that matter). Majestic might be slightly better than your average Supes clone, but you're giving him way too much credit. Besides, Thor's the pinnacle of all that is cool *coughvoteformescoobcough*.
I'm not saying Majestic by himself is far above Thor. I'm saying Majestic, with his strength amped several times it's normal level, is far above Thor. I'd say the same thing about Thor in relation to Majestic if he was the base for my amalgam instead. Majestros + electron and kinetic strength increases > regular strength Thor.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
1. Loki's powers, including replacing a lopped off head without incident, derive from his magical powers and have nothing to do with what body he is in. He'd be able to it just as easily with Apollo's body. And this very feat speaks to my earlier argument of magical internal matter control...this is just more fuel for the argument.
If it was just a question of magical power, every top tier magic user in in the MU could do the same. I don't think any sane person is going to be claiming Strange could have his head cut off, pick it up, and put it back on (though I'm sure longpig would love it if that were the case). A magic user with a human body gets his head cut off, he loses the ability to use magic anymore.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
2. Healing factor. Let's take Volume 2, Issue 12. Jenny Fractal has punched a hole in Apollo's chest and is holding his heart in her hand. He manages to get away but is severely injured. They take him away and teleport him to where the rest of the group is...the Engineer sets up an artificial sunlight source to help him heal. Before the end of the page, no more than a minute or so (The Authority is in a hurry after all...the multiverse is imploding in on itself) Apollo is up and talking. I don't think I'm overestimating my healing-rate at all. With the uber-charge I'll have from being in the suit so long, if anything I'm underestimating it.
Yeah, you neglect to mention Engineer saying "The Doctor worked his magic on him, a few minutes later and we'd have lost him." So wow, all it took was effort from a guy who sinks continents by thinking about it and some sunlight. Impresive.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
3. Just as strong?...debatable. I'd say no, but probably about even. Faster?...in flight sure, in fighting slightly. But we'll both get our hits in. More experienced fighter?...sure, but Apollo has oodles of experience too, and again I think this is a moot point.
Well of course you'd say no they aren't even in strength, it'd be pretty dumb for you not to. Still, deny it all you want, your guy does not outmatch Blackstrom in strength. In flight faster, in fighting FAR faster. You may get a hit in, but by the time you do, I will have had tim to knock down your shield and go to work on your armor. Again, of course you think it's a moot point. If it wasn't, you'd be that much more screwed. Unfortunately, it isn't moot and you are screwed.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Again with the Thor bashing? Though Thor might have stopped Loki's plans plenty of times, Loki's shields have withstood Mjolnir blasts plenty of times. And between a good combination of flying, fighting, phasing, etc. I'll be dishing it out as much as taking punishment...and it'll still take you much longer than you think to get through my layers of shielding and actually start hurting me. In the meantime, Majestic will be toast.
It's not Thor bashing, it's common sense. What's better, ten good hits from Thor, or two hits from someone who is amped up to ten times Thor's strength? Personally, I'm going with the second option. The flying, phasing, etc. I've already dealt with; speed and all that.

You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the only weapons you even have a chance of hitting me with are your omni-directional heat vision and physical blows. Everything else, I'm just too fast for by far. Sun-derived heat vision is never going to make it through my shields, since BB has used his electron powers to cancel out a massively charged solar flare created by Graviton, and it is going to be quite some time before you are lucky enough to lay a hand on me.

Apollo kicks him in the stomach, the guy screams "Waroooargh!" or something similar. Apollo lands a few other blows like this. He takes a punch (that originally sent him around the planet) and keeps fighting. I'm not 'saying' he's close. I'm showing you that he is.



Similar to what you said I was doing, you're 'saying' Loki has no control over subatmoic particles. The fact that he can maek dragons from clouds, or change his shape, or put his head back on after it's chopped off...all speak to matter control. I'm not saying that I'll be shapeshifting...I'm merely using that power to demonstrate that manipulation of anything within me will be blocked or negated. And if your electron messing can mess with magical manipulation, which works with an entirely different set of rules, I'd be impressed. We don't have a precedent for it, so I'd believe that it wouldn't happen. As always, you'll have to get to my body first before this happens, though we both know how the other feels about that.



Not going to shapeshift...like I said, I only used that power to demonstrate that I'd deny your attempts to manipulate matter within me. Armor to dust?...I won't become repetitive. My other posts deal with this in detail.



Nice...now we're claiming that class Million punches will be shrugged off. Majestic's body...BB's shields...whatever else you can muster...none of that will make much difference. You're still going to feel it big time.



My strength boost is automatic...I don't have to think about it for it to happen. Yours requires concentration. How much time will Majestic be able to spend using someone else's powers (powers that, even with 2 hours, he's nowhere near comfortable with...let alone being able to master them) to boost his strength, especially when you're having to deal with me?? He won't be able to use it nearly as much as you'd have us believe. And after a few hits, with his concentration waning, I'd call into question whether the strength boost would be there at all.



??? Loki has done this (put his head back on). His power is solely magical and has nothing whatsoever to do with what body he is in. He's transferred himself to Odin's body before and had the exact same powers as in Loki's body. Strange couldn't do it, because that isn't part of his magical ability...but I don't see why Loki couldn't do something like this in Apollo's body. Besides, this is just to make a further case for A. my healing and B. my matter manipulation. I honestly don't think the fight would get so far I'd have to put my head back on. But it's there if I need it.

One last thing. Apollo has charged himself in more than our sun. The Authority resides in a dimension-hopping ship, and Apollo has gone sun-bathing in other solar systems (I can provide issues if need be). There's no doubt that the suit would help him...nowhere ever has a specific sun or sun-type been mentioned. All sun radiation helps him, thus the suit would do wonders for Apollo.

-DM

P.S. Honestly, I wasn't trying to be sneaky...I just forgot about the Doctor's intervention with that healing incident. Of course, I'm also cursing my bad luck (Khell's about the only person in the tourney who would've noticed that) but Apollo still heals faster than normal...it would definitely be an asset.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
P.S. Honestly, I wasn't trying to be sneaky...I just forgot about the Doctor's intervention with that healing incident. Of course, I'm also cursing my bad luck (Khell's about the only person in the tourney who would've noticed that) but Apollo still heals faster than normal...it would definitely be an asset.

maybe one of only two who would have noticed/checked on that fact... and you had to fight one of us ....

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Similar to what you said I was doing, you're 'saying' Loki has no control over subatmoic particles. The fact that he can maek dragons from clouds, or change his shape, or put his head back on after it's chopped off...all speak to matter control.
Actually, I'm not JUST saying it, I'm going by the link YOU provided. Here, lemme quote part of it.

That makes it pretty clear that his control over objects other than his body is true matter manipulation, while what he does with his body is simple shapeshifting.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not saying that I'll be shapeshifting...I'm merely using that power to demonstrate that manipulation of anything within me will be blocked or negated.
Yes, you're SAYING it, but you're wrong. His internal ability extends only to changing his living flesh from one shape to another, it doesn't extend to controlling the flow of electrons within his body.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Not going to shapeshift...like I said, I only used that power to demonstrate that I'd deny your attempts to manipulate matter within me. Armor to dust?...I won't become repetitive. My other posts deal with this in detail.
The kind of shapeshiftin you have extends, at MOST, to the molecular level, it does not allow you to stop me from, say, halting all brain activity.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nice...now we're claiming that class Million punches will be shrugged off. Majestic's body...BB's shields...whatever else you can muster...none of that will make much difference. You're still going to feel it big time.
The one or two you manage to land? Yes. They may hurt, but they aren't going to put me out of commission.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
My strength boost is automatic...I don't have to think about it for it to happen. Yours requires concentration. How much time will Majestic be able to spend using someone else's powers (powers that, even with 2 hours, he's nowhere near comfortable with...let alone being able to master them) to boost his strength, especially when you're having to deal with me?? He won't be able to use it nearly as much as you'd have us believe. And after a few hits, with his concentration waning, I'd call into question whether the strength boost would be there at all.
BB's strength boost takes just enough time to supercharge his body with electron energy, so maybe a split second. Maelstrom's kinetic draining is automatic, he just has to decide how much he wants to be drawing in. Kinda like a volume knob, just turn it up and leave it be. Both of these actions can be done in the first second of the fight, or during prep.

BB was using his matter manipulation powers to create things out of thin air when he was an infant. I'm thinking someone who is a bona fide genius like Majestic can muddle through in a couple hours. Besides, BB couldn't even SEE the electrons he was manipulating, Majestros can.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Loki has done this (put his head back on). His power is solely magical and has nothing whatsoever to do with what body he is in. He's transferred himself to Odin's body before and had the exact same powers as in Loki's body. Strange couldn't do it, because that isn't part of his magical ability...but I don't see why Loki couldn't do something like this in Apollo's body. Besides, this is just to make a further case for A. my healing and B. my matter manipulation. I honestly don't think the fight would get so far I'd have to put my head back on. But it's there if I need it.
...So, he transferred his power into the body of ANOTHER, more powerful God, and then just happened to be able to use the same powers int eh same way? Interesting. See, the thing is, that doesn't prove much. The body of a God and a Skyfather are going to be fairly similar, the body of a vastly enhanced human is going to be completely foreign. There's no guarantee he'll be able to use any powers related to his shapeshifting on this new body.

Oh, and you're right. When I've depleted your solar charge and I'm blowing you apart with my scream, you won't have to worry about reattaching your head.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
One last thing. Apollo has charged himself in more than our sun. The Authority resides in a dimension-hopping ship, and Apollo has gone sun-bathing in other solar systems (I can provide issues if need be). There's no doubt that the suit would help him...nowhere ever has a specific sun or sun-type been mentioned. All sun radiation helps him, thus the suit would do wonders for Apollo.
Yeah, I'm interested in learning about a sun he charged up from that didn't belong Earth or one of it's parallel dimension versions, which would make them basically the same sun.

Originally posted by Scoobless
maybe one of only two who would have noticed/checked on that fact... and you had to fight one of us ....

Hey, it just sounded too fishy. I had to go rummage through my collection to take a peek.

Oh my god you need a microscope to read all this stuff. A lot of into. This match is to close to call yet imo. I'll wait for a few more posts before I vote.

Yeah, he has control over external matter. And yes, he can shape-shift. The bio does indeed have the word 'external' but never says "only external". If it did, shape-shifting, head-putting-back-on, and similar feats would be ridiculous and discontinuous with his powers. The very nature of those acts blatently shows that Loki does indeed have internal matter control. Outside sources of energy might be used just to strike at me, but nothing internal (i.e. BB's brain-scrambling tactic) would work at all.



Wow...throwing me a bone for a change. Actually admitting they'd hurt if I landed them. And I would. Plenty of them. Maybe you'd land a few more than me, but Apollo is at least comparable in speed and skill. Not better, but close enough to let my other assets, like strength, my extensive shielding, healing, phasing, etc. give me the advantage.



I'm not denying any of this. But once your guy gets rattled (with the aforementioned punches/magical bolts/etc) that shielding and strength boost will come down. It requires a concentration of BB's power to do that...concentration you won't be able to afford when you're brawling for your life with General Kinky.



The basis of this entire tournament is that we get the powers of each character involved unless the power is directly linked with their body...in which case we need the body of that person to use the power. Loki's powers...all of them...have nothing to do with the body he is in, and everything to do with his inherent magical ability. Everything he can do normally (including the head bit, though this is just an example) he can do as part of this amalgam. End of story.



Lovely...might be one of the issues I was citing earlier...lemme find it...Volume 2, Issue 8. Apollo gets his ass whupped by John Clay (the telepath I mentioned earlier) and uses a Carrier door to go to a "Solar system powered by twin suns" to soak up more energy than usual to fight Clay. It's in the "Alternate 121" dimension...which doesn't mean alternate earth, just alternate dimension. And nowhere in any issue of Authority have I seen a specific sun or sun-radiation-type cited as being the only kind that powers Apollo. He's the "Sun King"...any sun will do (or sun-radiation suit as the case may be). If we're getting technical here, Zod's powers include becoming stronger with red-sun radiation (which is what the suit emits) and I have Zod's powers (which mostly just overlap with Apollo's) so I could apply his red-radiation absorbancy to Apollo...but I don't need to. It'll work anyway with Apollo.


...

I still believe I'm stronger and have provided credible examples to justify it. Majestic still has to control foreign powers to boost his strength and give him any sort of shielding, and if he becomes unable to concentrate on them they're lost. I may not be Hulk or even Wolverine, but I'll be healing faster than Majestic, and have magical shields and my armor to get through first. Loki has control over himself to the extent that any internal intrusion will be negated or denied, and we'd both get ample hits in during a straight-up brawl. Eventually, my guy would win out.

-DM

You're both saying you're stronger and faster than the other.
Kinda important for me to know who is right. Speed is going to a mean a lot here.

Originally posted by long pig
You're both saying you're stronger and faster than the other.
Kinda important for me to know who is right. Speed is going to a mean a lot here.
I'll replay to Digi later, but I'll get to this right now. Here are some of Majestic's speed (and strength while flying) and other various feats.

From the first issue of his first solo series:
- He moves the moon wearing special gauntlets designed by himself to keep it from falling apart. while Nixon steps down as a president as a distraction. Satelittes and machines he has built stabilize the Earth, keep the tides going as normal etc.
- Majestic moves Mercury towards Jupiter and leaves it as a new moon there.
- Majestic uses his laser vision to change the chemical compistion of the planet of Jupiter with one blast.
- Using a self-built spaceship, Majestic goes to a neighboring star system to move *several* moons at once, moves them to Mars and then blasts them with his laser vision to create rings around Mars.
- Catches a comet and adds it as another planet to the solar system (flying over there and back under his own power, not in a spaceship)
- He moves the Earth into an orbit around Jupiter.
-At the end of the first issue of his comic, Majestic flies outside the Milky Way galaxy -- under his own power -- and then turns around and flies back home. And he's back in less than a year. Which puts him somewhere around a few thousand times faster than light.

Majestic #7: Majestic fights a villain who tries to spray a city with temporal particles to send it back to the Stone Age. Majestic breaths in all the particles and flies away into outer space.
The villain rants:"I spent my life savings on this prototype. Now it's....."
In outer space, he passes Mars and Jupiter, but the dust starts to hurt him. He's then contacted by the Universals, a race of god-like entities who talk to him in his mind in an Alice in Wonderland kind of mindscape. They tell him of his destiny and Majestic wakes up, Saturn in the background.
He gets up and flies back to Earth.
On Earth the villain rants: "... life savings on this prototype. Now it's just a worthless pile of junk! This is not chaos-charisma in action! This is anti-sophistication!"
At that point Majestic flies in at high speed, grabs the villain and locks him in a police car.
So unless the villain was repeating those two sentences over and over again, we have Earth to Saturn and back within a sentence.

Those are flight speed feats. As for movement/fighting speed feats, the two best are the infamous one in which he researches a brand new technology and builds a working prototype (after havng to rebuild it once) in nanoseconds. Then, there is his latest issue, in which he senses someone teleporting in behind him and, with only a nanosecond to react, spins around and punches the guy before his body is fully formed.

I'm almost positive Apollo can't match my planet moving/mountain lifting and speed feats.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yeah, he has control over external matter. And yes, he can shape-shift. The bio does indeed have the word 'external' but never says "only external". If it did, shape-shifting, head-putting-back-on, and similar feats would be ridiculous and discontinuous with his powers. The very nature of those acts blatently shows that Loki does indeed have internal matter control. Outside sources of energy might be used just to strike at me, but nothing internal (i.e. BB's brain-scrambling tactic) would work at all.
Internal matter control, not energy. You don't seem tob e grasping the difference. The shapeshifting and head reattachment would opnly require molecular control. He shows no evidence of controlling subatomic particles INTERNALLY.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Wow...throwing me a bone for a change. Actually admitting they'd hurt if I landed them.
Yeah well, I have you so outmatched in speed, I figured it would be nice to at least give you that much. IF you can land a hit, sure, it'll hurt.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not denying any of this. But once your guy gets rattled (with the aforementioned punches/magical bolts/etc) that shielding and strength boost will come down. It requires a concentration of BB's power to do that...concentration you won't be able to afford when you're brawling for your life with General Kinky.
Well, you're either denying it or not understanding it. Black Bolt's strength increases have naver been shown to decrease over time, unlike Apollo's solar charge. And he has taken WAY more punishment than you will be dishing out. Once he increases his strength, that's it, it's done, no more effort needed. Same with Maelstroms powers. They are automatic, no matter how much concentration he can spare.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The basis of this entire tournament is that we get the powers of each character involved unless the power is directly linked with their body...in which case we need the body of that person to use the power. Loki's powers...all of them...have nothing to do with the body he is in, and everything to do with his inherent magical ability. Everything he can do normally (including the head bit, though this is just an example) he can do as part of this amalgam. End of story.
Yes, they get the power, but not necessarily the ability to use it. Loki has spent all his time using his shapeshifting abilities in a body that greatly differs internally from a NORMAL human's, much less Apollo, who has an untold number of changes made internally. His shapeshifting power has EVERYTHING to do with the body he is in. He has to ahve some idea of it's structure before he can go changing it to something else.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Lovely...might be one of the issues I was citing earlier...lemme find it...Volume 2, Issue 8. Apollo gets his ass whupped by John Clay (the telepath I mentioned earlier) and uses a Carrier door to go to a "Solar system powered by twin suns" to soak up more energy than usual to fight Clay. It's in the "Alternate 121" dimension...which doesn't mean alternate earth, just alternate dimension.
Okay, cool, that doesn't mean this dimension we're in has a sun.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I still believe I'm stronger and have provided credible examples to justify it. Majestic still has to control foreign powers to boost his strength and give him any sort of shielding, and if he becomes unable to concentrate on them they're lost.
You are allowed to believe that if you want, you're just wrong in this case. I am at least as strong, if not stronger. Majestic has to control foreign powers a baby was able to master. Meanwhile, Majestic is a friggin genius with two hours to learn. And, neither his shields nor his strength need concentration to maintain. Once he creates them, they stay that way until he wishes different.

I have strong shields and armor on top of being invulnerable and augmenting my durability with absorbed kinetic energy. Once you take away Apollo's charge, he can take a beating like any normal human. I have speed that far outstrips yours, and that too has been increased by my other powers. I have millenia of combat experience, when you have, at most, a decade. I have laser vision guaranteed to remove our armor, a way of depleting your solar charge almost instantly, and a voice that will shatter your body to finish the fight.

I'm having a hard time believing Loki could reattach his head, while in a human's body.
Part of having a drawrf giant's body, is that power. Loki's power comes internally from a source within a magical body, here, he has no magic body.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm having a hard time buying it.

Just like you have all of Strange's power in someone's else's body, Loki's power transfers here. It's a pre-condition of this tournament that we get the person's powers unless directly linked to the body...Loki's powers aren't directly linked to his body, therefore I have access to all of them.

A couple quick things (I'll respond to Khell's most recent post later)

1. I have Zod's powers too...which includes laser vision, and speed capable of battling Superman, who is presumably slightly faster in a fight than Apollo. Nix those from Khell's already small list of advantages.

2. I don't think I've made a big enough deal about my ability to phase. When used properly, I can become intangible when needed, then re-assemble to punch Majestic...making me even more elusive than otherwise. Loki can do this with a thought.

3. The head re-attachment isn't even terribly important...it was just an example that Khell and I got hung up on. I have Loki's powers so it shouldn't be a problem though.

4. Apollo has fought a "speedster" (of unknown speed, but with reflexes and speed surpassing normal beings). Apollo manages to grab him (and the guy looks stunned) and heat-vision him (not 'spread'...just straight-line). Admittedly, the speedster guy gets more hits in on Apollo than vice-versa, and Midnighter ends up taking him out, but Apollo manage to harm him and is fast enough to do this. All of this happens shortly after the Earth Inferno crisis in a stand-alone issue (forget the number...Volume 1, somewhere around 18). Apollo's up there in speed...I'd get plenty of hits in.

-DM

Ok, I know what you're saying. nm.
I was off on thinking loki's body was the source and all but yeah, same thing goes for most of the people here.

got too deep.

Starting to run out of original counter-arguments...many of the same stuff has been said at least once or twice. Khell and I are obviously divided on quite a few things, like the extent of Loki's power, Apollo's fight speed, and which was one of us is stronger. Most of those I have dealt with efficiently, often citing issues to back up my claims (like with the strength and fight speed). With Loki being able to phase, teleport, cast magical bolts (that would be more powerful than those used by even Thor), all with merely a thought, he's a helluva asset to me. Khell mentioned Majestic once punching a guy who was rematerializing while teleporting. He assumes I'd teleport right behind him or close to him. It's simply to make me more elusive than I am already so that I'm dealing more damage than I'm taking. Majestic won't have the speed to hit me then.

When I do get my hits in (which I will with the aforementioned strength and speed) I'm far beyond even Million Ton level because of the suit...and I have a faster healing rate than Majestic could ever hope to have.

And all those feats of strength by Majestic? Sure, they're impressive, but Superman has moved planets (at least the moon that I know of), Surfer has destroyed planets (so have lots of other cosmic-level beings), Hulk is capable of similar feats....this is all to say that they're not far beyond what can be accomlished by many herald-level characters, including Apollo (especially suped up in the armor). Majestic might be the best stand-alone Supes-clone ever in terms of power, but this isn't base Apollo we're talking about, it's more like Uber-Apollo, and I have other powers to augment my character (Loki).



This still requires you to get inside my shields and armor first (and we both know our thoughts on that)...it's not something you'll be using as soon a the fight starts.



I dealt with speed in my last post. I'm a lot closer than you think (Zod can hang Superman, and I'll inherit his speed, and I cited Apollo's fight with the 'speedster') and will definitely be getting hits in. Given that, you've already admitted they'd hurt quite a bit.

...

Also, many times on this forum an important distiction was made between fighting speed and travel speed. For the purposes of this fight, that whole 'flying around the galaxy' thing means next-to-nothing.

As for you hitting me, a proper combination of phasing, teleportation, flight, shielding, and just regular fighting will mean you won't get nearly as many hits in on me as I will on you. You have the slight advantage i fight speed...but I make up for it with all of those. You'll be the one who's desperate to get hits in, not me.

-DM

I'm not real clear on how fast Zod's suit would charge Apollo... Especially since he would retain everything from his last fight. If it took Apollo a day or 2 a long distance from a sun to amp his strength well into the million ton range, I'd say direct contact with sunlight-emitting armor would put it way past that. And couldn't Digi stack Zod's red sun absorbtion on top of Apollo's? And (last one, I swear) does Apollo's speed or healing get better as he builds his charge up?

Everything about Apollo gets better as he builds his charge, so yes to your last question Dizzle (though, to be fair, he probably still wouldn't be at Wolverine level healing).

I've been cautious about how much the suit would amp Apollo, and while I do have him at Million+ ton level (which I've backed up with evidence) having the radiation right against him would probably do a helluva lot more for him than even I'm saying.

And adding Zod's radiation boost? Genius, but it may or may not work. To be honest, Zod levels out around Superman level, probably even slightly lower, so I'm not sure if it would augment my already beyond-Superman strength that Apollo will have with the suit on. It's an interesting theory, but not one that I'd be able to prove convincingly...so by all means, you're welcome to believe that theory if you want (hehe) but I won't try and pass it off as fact.

-DM

{Edit}

Wait a tick...you're saying add Zod's ability to absorb red-sun radiation to Apollo's ability? So I'd be absorbing the radiation at about twice the rate that Apollo would normally? That sounds a lot more plausible. Originally I thought you were just asking if I could add Zod's strength to Apollo's, which I can't. But the red-sun absorbancy is an "ability" and not "body", so if I used Zod's absorbing ability along with Apollo's my strength would increase at twice the rate, and the same would apply to every other area. Holy crap! That's useable, and legal within the tournament rules. So, anyone reading this, however strong you think I am (I'd have myself at at least Million+), double that.

Woot!

I was asking about whether Apollo's speed got better with his charge or not, since I think it plays a much bigger role than the healing does.

Speed, no. At least not that I know of. But he's fought a 'speedster' and managed to get hits in (the guy seemed on par with Quicksilver or slightly slower...but still fast) and also is a good, well-trained fighter to begin with (not quite as good as Majestic, but still darn good). So Apollo's speed is fine compared to Majestic, and I have a lot more going for me like phasing, teleportation, magical shields and my armor.

-DM

P.S. The fight with the fast guy I think was Volume 1 Issue 20. I said 18 the first time, but that was wrong.

P.P.S. Now that I think about it, it's Loki's fighting ability I'll be using, not Apollo's (since Loki is my "mind". But Loki is thousands of years old, and has fought Surfer, Thor, etc. multiple times. These kinds of speeds are nothing new to him...and he's in the enhanced body of Apollo so he'll be even better than usual.

Voting For Digimark... My mind can change though...

Voting for Khell...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
1. I have Zod's powers too...which includes laser vision, and speed capable of battling Superman, who is presumably slightly faster in a fight than Apollo. Nix those from Khell's already small list of advantages.
Just because he has the ability to speedblitz opponents in a comic doesn't mean Superman always does. Unless you can name some combat speed feats, you just get another boost in flight speed.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
2. I don't think I've made a big enough deal about my ability to phase. When used properly, I can become intangible when needed, then re-assemble to punch Majestic...making me even more elusive than otherwise. Loki can do this with a thought.
Phasing isn't foolproof (just ask J'onn, who has been hit by certain energy blasts, including a form of heat vision) and for a guy who can sense electromagnetic fields, has hypersenses on par with Supes, and can change the frequency of his laser vision, phasing won't keep you safe for long.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
4. Apollo has fought a "speedster" (of unknown speed, but with reflexes and speed surpassing normal beings). Apollo manages to grab him (and the guy looks stunned) and heat-vision him (not 'spread'...just straight-line). Admittedly, the speedster guy gets more hits in on Apollo than vice-versa, and Midnighter ends up taking him out, but Apollo manage to harm him and is fast enough to do this. All of this happens shortly after the Earth Inferno crisis in a stand-alone issue (forget the number...Volume 1, somewhere around 18). Apollo's up there in speed...I'd get plenty of hits in.
...What? In volume 1, issues 17 to 20 ARE the Earth Inferno storyline, when they battle the evil Doctor. And if you're calling HIM a speedster, you're even more mixed up than I though.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
P.P.S. Now that I think about it, it's Loki's fighting ability I'll be using, not Apollo's (since Loki is my "mind". But Loki is thousands of years old, and has fought Surfer, Thor, etc. multiple times. These kinds of speeds are nothing new to him...and he's in the enhanced body of Apollo so he'll be even better than usual.
LOL! Oh man, I didn't even think of that! Jeez, now you are in screwed. When has Loki EVER won a real fistfight with no mitigating circumstances? He is a trickster and a coward, which means you don't even get the measly few years of combat training Apollo had. Loki is class THIRTY, and knows that's not enough to ever hang with big hitters like Thor. The first time Blackstrom lands a hit and cracks his shield like an egg, Loki is likely to crap himself.

This match is going to be closed around June 21st 8:00 PM Pacific Standard time. Please cast your votes before then and remember the rules and eligibility about voting.

Arrrgghhh....I'm on the fence badly. Khell for now, it can be easily swayed to Digi's side though, very very easily.

Im surprised no one has gone and used the reverse dimension in their arguments. And no one previousely has used the special battle fields I've set up to their advantage.

But I also named some of Apollo's feats, like managing to fight the 'speedster'. He's fast enough by himself, and Loki inherits his speed.



It doesn't have to. I have multiple layers of shielding, and will be fighting you ferociously. Phasing is just a bonus. I rematerialize as soon as I need to, so your percious laser vision (which I have too, by the way, from Zod's abilities) won't be doing much.




Hmmmm...damnit. The collection I have doesn't have issue numbers. It happens directly after Earth Inferno. Some reanimated dead corpses come back to life from some death dimension and one of them is a really fast guy formerly named Amaze who has a mad on for Apollo and MN'er. MN'er takes him out but Apollo manages to grab him (Amaze appears stunned that he does so) and hit him with his heat vision.



What does Class 30 have to do with anything? Loki's a Class Million+ now thanks to Apollo and the suit. He's stalemated Surfer, fought Thor multiple times...and isn't afraid of a "heavy-hitter".

...

Khell's claim to fame still seems to be Majestic's slight advantage in fight speed. Otherwise I have him trumped in pretty much everything else. I have laser vision (Zod) will be healing faster (Apollo) and have a variety of tricks that I've already mentioned to make me more elusive (Loki).

Oh, and notice Khell didn;t mention anything about adding Zod's red-sun absorbancy to Apollo's. It's an "ability" of Zod's and therefore I would have access to it, thus making me absorb the radiation from the suit twice as fast. Now I'm leagues above even Majestic, if I wasn't already, because of this nifty little power addition. I'll also be healing twice as fast as before, and now will be so much stronger than Majestic one punch will make him start to cry. But I'm sure a slight combat-speed advantage will make up for all of that...

-DM

P.S. Where are the votes?? Losing is one thing, but after all of this debating, I'd rather not lose 3-1.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Im surprised no one has gone and used the reverse dimension in their arguments. And no one previousely has used the special battle fields I've set up to their advantage.

I tried briefly on page 1, but I don't know enough about the reverse dimension to make a strong argument one way or another.

***

I'm going to repeat this, since it's a rather new addition to my argument repertoire, and I think it's important...

I can add Zod's red-sun absorbancy to Apollo's allowing me to absorb the suit's radiation twice as fast. This will make me roughly twice as strong as I thought (which was already Million+) and heal faster. This is a big difference, and I believe would solidify my win.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I can add Zod's red-sun absorbancy to Apollo's allowing me to absorb the suit's radiation twice as fast.

i disagree.... the red sun absorption is a physical attribute.... and even if it works, chances are his suit is designed to give off a specific amount of radiation to keep him at peak levels.... so additional absorption wouldn't matter

damn...... i don't want to vote.... lol...... it still seems pretty close to me.... nothing has really convinced me that either character is a significantly better combatant than the other.... Kinky with armour seems a little stronger... they seem to be about even in speed... Majestic's mind makes him a better fighter... but Loki's magic and shielding swings it back to Kinky.....hmmmmm



ok.... i vote for Digimark

wow an old foe who ive come to respect
vs
a friend and ally who has suceeded my position

thats real tough.

after reading the short 3 pages of debate. . .
im going to have to go with DM. though the advantage of speed is important, it seems like that since kinky has almost all the other advantages at his disposal, there isnt much blackstorm can do to him.

vote for DM

Ha...you found a new Quick Freeze pic to go on the left there.

I count 3-3 right now.

Oh, and great fight Khell, regardless of how the voting turns out. Since this should be closing down soon, I'm done debating, but thanks to anyone who has voted for me or who will vote for me.

-DM

yeah long pig gave that pic to me!

Originally posted by Evangel94
Im surprised no one has gone and used the reverse dimension in their arguments. And no one previousely has used the special battle fields I've set up to their advantage.
I'd love to, but I've enver read a comic that featured it, and the two descriptions I've found don't give me much to go on. I did, on the other hand, use the indestructible desert you put me and Gautam in.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But I also named some of Apollo's feats, like managing to fight the 'speedster'. He's fast enough by himself, and Loki inherits his speed.
Yes, but you said yourself he was around Quicksilver in speed, meanwhile my guy is at Flash levels. No comparison.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It doesn't have to. I have multiple layers of shielding, and will be fighting you ferociously. Phasing is just a bonus. I rematerialize as soon as I need to, so your percious laser vision (which I have too, by the way, from Zod's abilities) won't be doing much.
Fighting me "ferociously", but with little skill. Thor beats Loki on a regular basis, and experience-wise, he and Majestic are pretty close. You have one shield and one easily-destroyed suit of armor. If you rematerialize for even a split second, that's all it takes to hit your armor. And, since you're so much slower, you won't even be able to dodge the laser vision.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Hmmmm...damnit. The collection I have doesn't have issue numbers. It happens directly after Earth Inferno. Some reanimated dead corpses come back to life from some death dimension and one of them is a really fast guy formerly named Amaze who has a mad on for Apollo and MN'er. MN'er takes him out but Apollo manages to grab him (Amaze appears stunned that he does so) and hit him with his heat vision.
I'm looking at issue summaries right now, and there is no one shot listed after Earth Inferno in Volume One. And, I'm sorry, but if Midnighter was the oen who took him out, he can't have been much above Quicksilver speed. No way was he reaching light speed like Blackstrom can.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What does Class 30 have to do with anything? Loki's a Class Million+ now thanks to Apollo and the suit. He's stalemated Surfer, fought Thor multiple times...and isn't afraid of a "heavy-hitter".
It means Loki has spent his life in a body much weaker than his biggest enemy (Thor). The lack of equal strength and skill is why he manipulates from behind the scenese so much. Stalemating Surfer doesn't mean he came close to beating him, and those multiple times he's fought Thor have ended in his defeat. In this face-to-face fight, he is dead.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Khell's claim to fame still seems to be Majestic's slight advantage in fight speed. Otherwise I have him trumped in pretty much everything else. I have laser vision (Zod) will be healing faster (Apollo) and have a variety of tricks that I've already mentioned to make me more elusive (Loki).
Slight? I'm sorry, but Apollo had to be reminded to keep up with the Engineer when they were heading to a different part of the solar system. Majestic flies AROUND the solar system when he wants a little time to clear his head. We're talking Space Shuttle versus Star Trek here. And then you have the huge gap in actual fighting speeds. Your guy is around Quicksilver speeds, while mine is duplicating Flash and Superman feats (Flash once built a machine from scrap in seconds, and I've heard Superman managed to react to an incoming teleport in time to ionize the air and disrupt it). Your tricks are just that; amusing little antics that just delay the inevitable.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Oh, and notice Khell didn;t mention anything about adding Zod's red-sun absorbancy to Apollo's. It's an "ability" of Zod's and therefore I would have access to it, thus making me absorb the radiation from the suit twice as fast. Now I'm leagues above even Majestic, if I wasn't already, because of this nifty little power addition. I'll also be healing twice as fast as before, and now will be so much stronger than Majestic one punch will make him start to cry. But I'm sure a slight combat-speed advantage will make up for all of that...
I didn't mention it because it doesn't amke a difference, the armor is coming off and your charge is getting depleted. And, besides, just because you can absorb radiation at a high rate doesn't mean the suit puts out that much. For all you know, Zod absorbs solar radiation at a much slower rate than Apollo, thus sticking you in a suit that lets in no outside light and dooms you to slow recharging.

You aren't leagues above Majestic. I'm sorry, but in terms of lifting mountain-size spaceship >>> "class 1 million" and a big statue. Now, take Majestic's mountian lifting, planet moving strength and triple it. Quadruple it. THAT is what you are facing.

Okay, I know I've already addressed it, but I can't let the second "slight speed advantage" comment slide. To put thing in perspective, that's like saying Wally West would have a slight speed advantage over Quicksilver. It's just friggin wrong.

Originally posted by Quick Freeze
after reading the short 3 pages of debate. . .
im going to have to go with DM. though the advantage of speed is important, it seems like that since kinky has almost all the other advantages at his disposal, there isnt much blackstorm can do to him.

vote for DM
Yeah, all I have is a speed advantage. Oh, and that pesky ability that lets me remove his physical strength and render him nearly unconscious. And that other thing that lets me slice his armor to pieces. And greater physical strength. That's all.

Well, if Majestic got hit by Supes, even "energy Supes", he's not at Flash-level. I have never said I'd be faster, only that I'm fast enough to get hits in and have enough other advantages going for me to make this a rather small point.

The issue with the speedster...It's called "The Breaks" and is a 1 of 1 issue...in the colection I have they put it directly after Earth Inferno. Apparently, it isn't considered to be a part of Volume 1, but as a bonus issue or something. The issue itself goes under the larger heading of "The Authority: 2000 Annual. Devil's Night"

And you guys are probably right about the "double absorbtion" thing. It was worth a try though. In any case, that doesn't change my outlook on the fight or my strategy.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, if Majestic got hit by Supes, even "energy Supes", he's not at Flash-level. I have never said I'd be faster, only that I'm fast enough to get hits in and have enough other advantages going for me to make this a rather small point.

The issue with the speedster...It's called "The Breaks" and is a 1 of 1 issue...in the colection I have they put it directly after Earth Inferno. Apparently, it isn't considered to be a part of Volume 1, but as a bonus issue or something. The issue itself goes under the larger heading of "The Authority: 2000 Annual. Devil's Night"
Actually, since Supes was pure energy at the time, that would put him right at the speed of light. And, as I said, Majestic has a history of taking hits from people who are of comparable speed. Unfortunately for you, your character isn't one of those people.

It sounds familiar, but I don't remember much of the issue. I'll probably go looking for it later tonight. But, it doesn't change much. By your own admission, the speedster was around Quicksilver level. That puts him, and by extension Apollo far below Blackstrom's speed.

Votes:
Stormfront, Darkcrawler, Longpig - Khellendros
Sentry, Scoobless, Quick Freeze - Digimark

3-3. Lots of power to whoever votes next...Evangel should be closing this soon, so they'd pretty much control the fate of the battle.

I have no idea how some matches went 8-9 pages (or something around 20 for Nataku/SF). I'm exhausted after 3-4.

Since I said I'm done arguing, I won't post any more strategies (unless it doesn't get closed and goes on tomorrow) but my responses to most of Khell's last two posts can be found in my earlier posts.

-DM

you both did great

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Since I said I'm done arguing, I won't post any more strategies (unless it doesn't get closed and goes on tomorrow) but my responses to most of Khell's last two posts can be found in my earlier posts.
Yeah, I'm not gonna bother posting anything more unless you do first. People can go back and read my strength arguments and yours, speed arguments and all the rest at their leisure.

I think I'll vote for Khellendros. Pretty good arguments from both sides though.

Match Closed

Winner Khellendros

(Couldn't close it until the deadlock was decided)

Congrats Khell. Good luck in the finals (two tourneys in a row in the finals...deserves another congrats).

Since this is over, now I can say this...F*cking Majestic! He's a freakin' stud. You barely even used the other 2 in your amalgam, but Majestic alone seemed to be giving Kinky fits. Damn him to hell, but nice pick.

*composes self again*

But I lost to a worthy opponent, and so I feel no shame. Know, denizens of KMC, that I shall return...*music gradually slides in to underscore the moment* I shall reclaim my glory and honor. And I vow, with my hand on the Holy Book (the book of Asian Hulk quotes), to do better in the next tournament held (there's already talks of a street-level tourney).

Oh, and mad props to Quick Freeze. He started me off with some great picks, let me take the reins of General Kinky, and even provided some wisdom and encouragement for my matches. Sorry I couldn't take Kinky further QF, but thanks again.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Congrats Khell. Good luck in the finals (two tourneys in a row in the finals...deserves another congrats).

Since this is over, now I can say this...F*cking Majestic! He's a freakin' stud. You barely even used the other 2 in your amalgam, but Majestic alone seemed to be giving Kinky fits. Damn him to hell, but nice pick.

Hey, there IS a reason I've picked him without fail the last two tournaments I've been in. He started out pimpin and seriously gets written with a new feat almost every issue.

But yeah, thanks for the congrats. I seriously was not expecting to win there at the end.

hmmm... this still hasn't been closed....

just thought i'd mention it

You mention many things.