The irony of Anakin's dream

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queeq
I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I kinda like the bitter irony of Anakin's dream in ROTS: he dreams of Padme dying and to stop that he joins the Dark Side, but because of that move he actually makes the dream come true.

I thought this ties in nicely to Yoda's warnings to Luke in ESB: "Always in motion is the future."

In a way, what Anakin saw in his dreams was Padme's fate when he would turn to the Dark Side, but all he saw was her fate.

George said in The Making Of... that it was Padme that caused his turn to the Dark Side. In a way that is true, but only because Anakin is indeed too arrogant to deal with his premonitions properly. Maybe one can't blame him since his mother's death came about and seemed inevitable.
But I think now that it wasn't Padme, but Anakin wanting his own way with everything that caused his fall. Padme just made it come out, but it seems it was inevitable.

Anyway, I thought that Anakin causing his own nightmare to come true was nice inr elationship to tthe way Yoda handles the subject in ESB. Obviously, the frog learned from it.

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by queeq
I thought this ties in nicely to Yoda's warnings to Luke in ESB: "Always in motion is the future."

Yeah, I thought it tied in quite well. But I still find it odd actually seeing in Anakins dream, that was a bold move by Lucas.

Anyways, I got to be a stick up your ass...the quote is: "Always in motion the future is." big grin

queeq
Yeah, my Yoda-talk is getting a tad rusty.

It was a bold move, but a good one. I still find that George doesn't really hammer it home well, as he didn't in the PT with many great finds, plot points and ideas. But in ROTS it worked quite well, despite of that.

It's extremely bitter, but you don't get it straight from the film. It does kinda change the view on the ESB nocvo between Luke and Yoda: Luke could mess things up badly by following his premonitions... Lucky for the universe, he didn't.... almost though...

Neo_Version 7
It's also pretty ironic how potent the Force is with General Greevs. (When he was alive of course...)

queeq
Huh???

Neo_Version 7
sorry.

The dream thing was pretty spoily though when I first watched it in the cinemas.

Ken Kenobi
Originally posted by Neo_Version 7
It's also pretty ironic how potent the Force is with General Greevs. (When he was alive of course...)

I will slap you time and time again if you don't get it into your head that Grievous doesn't have the Force sensitivity of a Sith or a Jedi.

bilb
yup.. along with a few other twists in the PT this dream was quite effective and haunting....

queeq
Originally posted by Neo_Version 7
sorry.

The dream thing was pretty spoily though when I first watched it in the cinemas.

Spoily in a way yes... but not in the way that this dream is both cause AND result of Anakin's tur to the Dark Side.

Neo_Version 7
Agreed.

Neo_Version 7
I was half expecting Padme to go out guns blazin'!

Eleonora
I think about that a lot. It's plainly cruel. If he hadn't had that dream both their fates would have probably been somewhat different. In a way the conclusion is a trigger for the action, in logic and philosophy this is a paradox.

Neo_Version 7
Not to mention the relationship between Non-Force users and FOrce users...

aj_vader
wots goin on here? people are saying grevious can "use the force" he cant

whats giving you these impressions?

Gryn Jabar
In response to the OP, it's the self fulfilling propechy that is prevalent in SW, case in point, Anakin's fall and grace, fulfilling the main prophecy, and also his prophetic dream.

PVS
"if you go, help them you could...but you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered"

yet another line from yoda's experience i would say

matreid
Originally posted by Ken Kenobi
I will slap you time and time again if you don't get it into your head that Grievous doesn't have the Force sensitivity of a Sith or a Jedi.

Get him Ken! He's relentless with that subject. stick out tongue

queeq
Originally posted by Eleonora
I think about that a lot. It's plainly cruel. If he hadn't had that dream both their fates would have probably been somewhat different. In a way the conclusion is a trigger for the action, in logic and philosophy this is a paradox.

Only if we were to say that Anakin was merely a pawn in his fate. But he wasn't. If he had been less arrogant and more open to learn about the meaning of his premonitions, people could have helped him out. Now he was subject to his own insights which were limited. Of course, by marrying Padme in secret he'd already gone down that path,.

Neo_Version 7
laughing out loud

makes sense. Anakin wasn't the brightest crayon in the box. Seriously speaking...

DeVi| D0do
Think about this:

In his first dream we hear Padme screaming "Anakin, help me!", yet in the second we see it is Obi-Wan with her, not Anakin. I think this means that she was always going to die, but it wasn't until Palpatine began his manipulating that her destiny changed - that is, the circumstances of her death changed.

queeq
"Always in motion the future is..." That's what it means. She was in perfect health even during child birth, so that could never have been the cause. Maybe she was crying out to him NOT to go dark, who knows.

bilb
This whole dream thing very much reminds me of the Palantirs in LOTR, it shows you a PART of the future but only enough to let your mind go insane trying to figure it out, like what happened to Denethor in the books...

queeq
I agree!

green dude
Yeah this off the subject but W/E in LOTR Denethor was only shown the bad things that would happen if Frodo failed man in both movies it show the negative parts no sunny side to it.

Back to the topic he worried about his dreams and these types of dreams shouldn't be ignored but in reality and nonerelity there are always cross roads you can go left right forward but not backwards


So if you mess it up there no turning back that's life. But Anikin did what he thought was right but it bugs me he now wants power just power note when Anikin says Padme betrayed him how the hec dose that work he's going to the darkside to save her but she an't switching he's trying to save her and she want's to live with him with him on the goodside and he want's her to live but he chokes her nice Anikin real nice stick out tongue
sorry

jabbar
Originally posted by Ken Kenobi
I will slap you time and time again if you don't get it into your head that Grievous doesn't have the Force sensitivity of a Sith or a Jedi.

We should also group-slap you for posting an off-topic reply in this thread. mad

queeq
Ah no.... that was a mod reprimand, jabbar.

Jack Daniels
damn you just got mod slapped twice...lol.... stick out tongue

queeq
OH YEAH!

Dresta
maybe palps planted the dream into anakins mind

Robin Darkside
I thought Yoda said, "always emotion is the future"

Jack Daniels
didnt he say both in different movies?

DeVi| D0do
Originally posted by Robin Darkside
I thought Yoda said, "always emotion is the future"
It's 'in motion'.

Robin Darkside
emotion would have been better

Sadako of Girth
This whole theme reminds me of the ancient legend of Cassandra who was blessed by the power of foresight and visions of the future but could do nothing to stop it or alter it.... Including her death if I remember correctly...

bilb
oohh nice reference Sads!!

Robin Darkside
I think this is more ironic

In EP I, Anakin gives padme that peice of carved thing as a gift, Anakin says: "It will bring you good fortune"
now, in EP III, during the Padme funeral, it shows Padme holding it when she's dead.
Some good fortune....

green dude
lol yeah he ment fortune with him but it did in a way she

lived happy life for two movies and she chose to live or die she

chose death cuz she couldn't live without em and she knew he would

die and in the end they altogether agian except Luke and Leia

and some others stuck on plante alone stick out tongue i

If lil ani saw himself now he would

mad wonder what reaction would be time portal all them from PT

see them selves from past and future out come unknow stick out tongue

Robin Darkside
I guess, she must of had a wonderful life hiding her relationship. At least she had some kids, thats a good enough fortune

queeq
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
This whole theme reminds me of the ancient legend of Cassandra who was blessed by the power of foresight and visions of the future but could do nothing to stop it or alter it.... Including her death if I remember correctly...

Knowing how GL blatantly uses ancient mythology, that's probably where he got it from.

General Bondius
Anakin is nothing more than a little boy who is affraid of the dark and wants his mommy Bwwaaaa CRYBABY!!! mad

queeq
Yup, and it's heriditary... Luke has it too.

~Air Angel~
Originally posted by queeq
I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I kinda like the bitter irony of Anakin's dream in ROTS: he dreams of Padme dying and to stop that he joins the Dark Side, but because of that move he actually makes the dream come true.

I thought this ties in nicely to Yoda's warnings to Luke in ESB: "Always in motion is the future."

In a way, what Anakin saw in his dreams was Padme's fate when he would turn to the Dark Side, but all he saw was her fate.

George said in The Making Of... that it was Padme that caused his turn to the Dark Side. In a way that is true, but only because Anakin is indeed too arrogant to deal with his premonitions properly. Maybe one can't blame him since his mother's death came about and seemed inevitable.
But I think now that it wasn't Padme, but Anakin wanting his own way with everything that caused his fall. Padme just made it come out, but it seems it was inevitable.

Anyway, I thought that Anakin causing his own nightmare to come true was nice inr elationship to tthe way Yoda handles the subject in ESB. Obviously, the frog learned from it.



I agree it did tie in nicely! Very ironic indeed!

queeq
Bitterly ironic. Poor Anakin, consumed by himself.

LUKE IS THE TRUE CHOSEN ONE!!! wink

bilb
you know better than that queeq stick out tongue

Its anakin's story whether you llike it or not stick out tongue

queeq
Yes I know... But GL is finished with it now, so now it's my turn. stick out tongue

p. skywalker
Luke sucks!! the little whiner..

queeq
What about Anakin then: whining stuck up little brat! big grin

SolomnicKnight
i think padme was going to die anyway it was fate but yea i agree palp influenced anakin and in turn anakin was responsible for her death

bilb
Originally posted by queeq
Yes I know... But GL is finished with it now, so now it's my turn. stick out tongue

God help us all stick out tongue

queeq
Oh yes!!! evil face

Darth JLRTENJAC
WOOH A QUEEQ THREAD!

jedi-kev
As much as he was being payed Mr Chrystalmeth couldn't act that scene. His unconvincing cries for Natalie were embarassing for himself and fans everywhere. Gayden should actually get LucASS to get him a stunt double with super CG to play the role as him cos boy does his acting suck or what.

jedihuh?
I thought he played the Part quite well. theres always gotta be haters out there tho. and yes thats right I used the word haters.

And I think the whole movie tied everything together from all the movies pretty nicely. Especially that dream. Good thread!

chinabing
Isn't it ironic, doncha think? The whole falling in love bit did destroy their lives. Padme died because Anakin went to the dark side and it broke her heart. Anakin turned to the dark side to stop her from dying. It's like "The Gift of the Magi," where a man & wife sell things to buy gifts for the other, but both gifts were to be used with the things they sold.

We've always wanted to know Vader's motivation. It was kinda forseen in AOTC when Anakin said "I will learn to stop people from dying."

Those Skywalker men and their premonitions. I wonder why we actually saw one of them this time. I mean Luke had 'em when they were in the city in the clouds, Young anakin had a dream about freeing the slaves, padawan anakin about his mother. Does it have more impact to us the viewer seeing the premonitions?

I guess you don't have to be Force Sensitive to feel if there's still good in Vader. Either Padme was FS or she just knew, and telegraphed that to Baby Luke. And Leia picked up that Padme was beautiful, kind but sad. I don't know, a FS todder in the terrible twos would be a bit of a handful around the house!

Stealth Agent
Originally posted by chinabing
It's like "The Gift of the Magi," where a man & wife sell things to buy gifts for the other, but both gifts were to be used with the things they sold.

Like that episode of Simpsons with Homer and Marge. Or maybe it wasn't simpsons but it was some cartoon or maybe it wasn't. It was some sitcom with some married couple doing that for marriage presents. I think it was simpsons.

Yes in the end ol' geargy tied everything together. Whethere it be intentional or not.

Anakin saw padme's death because of something he was GOING to do. The something he was GOING to do was triggered by forseeing that. I guess as a Jedi when viewing into the future it doesn't have to be the direct future it can be alterations, to a variety of possibilitys.

Despite the dream it was Anakin's fault. HE was already headed down that road, the dream was just something for Palpatine to feed off of. Had he not had it there would of been other reasons to go to the dark side. Ultimatley it was his lust for power.

Ushgarak
I would point out though that I would be wary of the LOTR Palantir analogy. There was nothing hazardous about the Palantirs themselves- but Denethor was being deliberately sent selective glimpses of a bad future in order to manipulate.

Anakin was not being sent those visions at all; he was genuinely seeing the future- it was his reactions to that that were being manipulated.

Mstr GEKA
Originally posted by jedi-kev
As much as he was being payed Mr Chrystalmeth couldn't act that scene. His unconvincing cries for Natalie were embarassing for himself and fans everywhere. Gayden should actually get LucASS to get him a stunt double with super CG to play the role as him cos boy does his acting suck or what.

I sense an obsession with Chris-wathever... and everything is kind always gay with you...

Strange...

jedi-kev
Originally posted by Mstr GEKA
I sense an obsession with Chris-wathever... and everything is kind always gay with me...

Strange...


No arguements here. smile

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