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Who would win. Who can take these three down?

Hahahaha, Silver Surfer. And Lucifer. Yaaaaaaaaay Lucifer.

WHAT!?! WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

Come on guys answer the question. Could they win or would they end up losing?

In my opinion all u need is 3 DC guys to beat these 3: Ion, Parallax, and Krona.

Originally posted by armandovalles
In my opinion all u need is 3 DC guys to beat these 3: Ion, Parallax, and Krona.

Phoenix isnt getting beaten by any of those three armando you should know that by now.

i think so. I think Parallax could take care of SS in about 3 seconds, and then he could go help Ion, who was holding PF off, beat PF. This is all being done while Krona is pounding on Galactus.

Lucifer , M , Wally the God Boy ( flash prime hehe) , Entropy , fenris etc too many people.

DC wins

Ion, parallax dies badly, they are just that Oa’s power which will be drained

Originally posted by armandovalles
i think so. I think Parallax could take care of SS in about 3 seconds, and then he could go help Ion, who was holding PF off, beat PF. This is all being done while Krona is pounding on Galactus.

Go back and have a read of the phoenix threads which have cropped up over the last few weeks. I cant believe that after all the debating whats occurred someone would still think stuff like this. I have listed many refences in those threads. Try downloading those comics armando and then tell me if you still think the same way.

universe threads should be banned. the only words you need to say are LT or lucifer/michael. now barring lucifer/michael and wally the god-boy (and some assorted other divinities), the marvel three take it. though i have to say that silver surfer dies damn fast.

Krona Anti moniter Infinites Lucifer Michael TOAA Presence Eternity Eon The Celestials The Guardians The Elders etc etc etc

Lucifer, Micheal, Spectre, Wally God Boy. anyone with HOTU.

k...

LT
Infinity Being
Celestials
Abraxas
Wally the God Boy
Krona ( full power)
Entropy
Anti monitor/monitor
Decreator
Lucifer
Micheal
True Beyonder
Antithesis
Mallo
Godwave
The Ultimator
(xxx) w/HOTU
etc

enough said

Originally posted by Ethereal
k...

LT
Infinity Being
Celestials
Abraxas
Wally the God Boy
Krona ( full power)
Entropy
Anti monitor/monitor
Decreator
Lucifer
Micheal
True Beyonder
Antithesis
Mallo
Godwave
The Ultimator
(xxx) w/HOTU
etc

enough said
you said wally the god boy he rules

Originally posted by Ethereal
k...

LT
Infinity Being
Celestials
Abraxas
Wally the God Boy
Krona ( full power)
Entropy
Anti monitor/monitor
Decreator
Lucifer
Micheal
True Beyonder
Antithesis
Mallo
Godwave
The Ultimator
(xxx) w/HOTU
etc

enough said

The only possible threats to phoenix here are LT, Lucifer, Michael and HOTU. The rest are nothing.

This is basically Phoenix against the rest of both universes, Galactus and the SS are nothing in this fight. The universes win purely because there are maybe 5-10 (at most) higher up than Phoenix in the grand design. It's really a moot point because the Phoenix by it's very nature cannot die, and if it did it would bring down most of the rest of the universe, past, present and future with her.

original beyonder can also beat phoenix

Originally posted by Ethereal
original beyonder can also beat phoenix

No the original beyonder can NOT beat phoenix. Original beyonder fought and can beat rachel who is a host for a fraction of jeans essence. Jean is phoenix the union of her and the primal force of creation. When beyonder got an insight into the force behind achels power he was humbled and dropped to his knees. This is all old news ethereal. Youre behind which is understandable cos youve just joined. Try browsing for phoenix threads and you'll find out for yourself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The only possible threats to phoenix here are LT, Lucifer, Michael and HOTU. The rest are nothing.

WHAT THATS BULLSHIT. the phoenix is good but not that good. The Great Evil Beast would eat the phoenix. not even lucifer f.u.c.kes with him or it or watever it is. the source, True Beyonder aka secret wars beyonder, The Presence,The Combined Endless,The Decreator,Kismet all thes characters are above phoenix.

I'm going against the big three however, Armo shame on you for making these unbalanced matches.

i would say The Word, The Spectre and probably Imperiex Prime are also above them.

Originally posted by supremthor
WHAT THATS BULLSHIT. the phoenix is good but not that good. The Great Evil Beast would eat the phoenix. not even lucifer f.u.c.kes with him or it or watever it is. the source, True Beyonder aka secret wars beyonder, The Presence,The Combined Endless,The Decreator,Kismet all thes characters are above phoenix.


As you'd see if you actually read my post properly i was referring to those listed by Ethereal in which case i still am correct.

You need to read up on your beyonder stuff. When a reference was made to true beyonder in this thread that is not the one from secret wars (who phoenix could very well beat) but the power behind the cosmic cubes. Beyonder from secret wars faced rachel not jean theres a big difference. It seems you need an update in your phoenix knowledge.

Enlighten me oh galactic storm

Armo didn't make this thread. I did.

Yea my bad

Shame on you mortal.

BEAHTHETE OHSGGSFO S,whatever.

SILENCE YOU PIECE OF HUMAN TRASH!!!

U all don't know what Phoenix can do and undo. She's so freakin' powerful that it's not even funny. Rachel, the weaker host handed galactus's ass several times. Now if we're talking about white crown jean grey, galaxies bow down to her. As dark phoenix, galaxies shit in their pants. Hey, when she's good, she's good, when she's bad..........D' Bari system.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://webhome.idirect.com/~sprasher/images/blah.gif Hush, you overbearing fanboy.

bump

Well, if there are any beings that can give these three trouble, Phoenix can make the vast majority of these 2 universes fight along side them, seeing as how Phoenix is the ultimate psi and all. And death could essentially no longer exist. Anyone who's needed can life forever. Anyone who's not can be erased from existence.

The HOTU as isn't the end all and be all of power in the MU. There's a reason it's call the Heart of the Universe, not Heart of the Multiverse or Heart of All There Is. Go back and read The End. Thanos constantly refers to how he ended the universe, how he destroyed his reality. It never has any larger implication than that.

all u need to kill the 3 of them all is Lucifer.

ST are you trying to be annoying? Go and search for the Galactus Vs Phoenix thread, enlighten yourself and never talk trash again. Phoenix is the primal force of creation. It is suggested to be an aspect of TOAA. It creates existence cyclically and is the heart and soul of all of creation. Jean as phoenix of the white crown has reached her telepathic godhood. All matter, time/space etc are under her telekinetic control. She has also reached her telepathic godhood where her consciousness permeates and is one with all that is. In the comics she is referred to as tiphereth which is the heart and soul mystic tree of life and is also an incarnation of god within our plane of existence. Know your stuff before you start blabbing.

fanboy....

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
ST are you trying to be annoying? Go and search for the Galactus Vs Phoenix thread, enlighten yourself and never talk trash again. Phoenix is the primal force of creation. It is suggested to be an aspect of TOAA. It creates existence cyclically and is the heart and soul of all of creation. Jean as phoenix of the white crown has reached her telepathic godhood. All matter, time/space etc are under her telekinetic control. She has also reached her telepathic godhood where her consciousness permeates and is one with all that is. In the comics she is referred to as tiphereth which is the heart and soul mystic tree of life and is also an incarnation of god within our plane of existence. Know your stuff before you start blabbing.
i just felt like getting ur on ur nerves cuss i was realy bored.
by the way lucifer lives outside time space and etc so at full power phoenix powers would realy have no effect on him. unles she has the power to destroy a whol multivers with would realy do anything to him.

Originally posted by supremthor
i just felt like getting ur on ur nerves cuss i was realy bored.
by the way lucifer lives outside time space and etc so at full power phoenix powers would realy have no effect on him. unles she has the power to destroy a whol multivers with would realy do anything to him.

In Marvel Phoenix is the union of jean and the primal force of creation. Phoenix isnt a separate firebird entity. It is jean. The primal force of creation is second only to TOAA. Phoenix is responsible for the creation of Marvel existence. It created all that is and its power runs through all that is. Phoenix created Galactus. The primal force of creation enabled Galen to survive the death of the old universe and join with the universal essence to become Galactus. Phoenix created all the other abstracts. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown has telekinetic control over ALL matter, time/space etc and she telepathically one with all. Jean is phoenix all manifestations of the firebird are created by jean they are a part of jean. Jean is the primal force of creation in human form. All other phoenixes are merely hosts who possess part of jean sphoenix essence.

'fanboy'

Not at all. I can admit when phoenix can be defeated its just that there are very few beings in both marvel and dc who can. Its hosts can be taken out by powerful cosmics but jean herself going all out is beyond the vast majority of beings from both companies. Thats fact, not my assumptions or my fanboy wishes. Cordera you by your own admission know precious little about comics, before you start referring to people by such terms make sure you actually know about the character in question so that you can more accurately make a judgement yourself. Until you've enlightened yourself allow me the pleasure of redirecting to a less brain taxing forum:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?daysprune=&forumid=85

Originally posted by supremthor
all u need to kill the 3 of them all is Lucifer.

exactly he will destroy all of them.....phoenix is the prime multiversal force......lucifer is beyond the multiverse........he stood at the center of an explosion that could have destroyed the multiverse and didnt even flinch

Originally posted by colossus17
exactly he will destroy all of them.....phoenix is the prime multiversal force......lucifer is beyond the multiverse........he stood at the center of an explosion that could have destroyed the multiverse and didnt even flinch

Surviving the destruction of the multiverse says nothing about his power in comparison to phoenix. Phoenix creates the multiverse and exists beyond it in the white hot room, only reincarnating itself into our plane of existence to carry out microsurgery from within and via a human perspective. Think about it c17. Lucifer requires Michael to create a multiverse, Phoenix does it singlehandedly.

Jean holds universes in her hand and has telekinetic control over all matter, time/space and reality. She has reached telekinetic godhood. There is nothing beyond that hence its name. She has reached telepathic godhood, meaning she is the heart and soul of all that is, her consciousness extends over all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In Marvel Phoenix is the union of jean and the primal force of creation. Phoenix isnt a separate firebird entity. It is jean. The primal force of creation is second only to TOAA. Phoenix is responsible for the creation of Marvel existence. It created all that is and its power runs through all that is. Phoenix created Galactus. The primal force of creation enabled Galen to survive the death of the old universe and join with the universal essence to become Galactus. Phoenix created all the other abstracts. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown has telekinetic control over ALL matter, time/space etc and she telepathically one with all. Jean is phoenix all manifestations of the firebird are created by jean they are a part of jean. Jean is the primal force of creation in human form. All other phoenixes are merely hosts who possess part of jean sphoenix essence.

'fanboy'

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. I can admit when phoenix can be defeated its just that there are very few beings in both marvel and dc who can. Its hosts can be taken out by powerful cosmics but jean herself going all out is beyond the vast majority of beings from both companies. Thats fact, not my assumptions or my fanboy wishes. Cordera you by your own admission know precious little about comics, before you start referring to people by such terms make sure you actually know about the character in question so that you can more accurately make a judgement yourself. Until you've enlightened yourself allow me the pleasure of redirecting to a less brain taxing forum:

I wasnt' aiming that at you I was saying "fanboy" as in a questionary mark. You are on a wall and need those insults as usual, tsk tsk. Its funny how everyone lashes out on me, you took that too seriously maybe its the estrogen

I said I wasn't a diehard reader, I learn fast and make the difference, I reading all the time makes me no better if I can't deduce what is right or wrong. Take a chill pill. Fanboy


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?daysprune=&forumid=85

By the way game forums are actually worse, since there are less fanboys and people who think they know everything, don't insult what you can't handle baby!!!

'I wasnt' aiming that at you I was saying "fanboy" as in a questionary mark. You are on a wall and need those insults as usual, tsk tsk. Its funny how everyone lashes out on me, you took that too seriously maybe its the estrogen

I said I wasn't a diehard reader, I learn fast and make the difference, I reading all the time makes me no better if I can't deduce what is right or wrong. Take a chill pill. Fanboy'


Yoou know i aint being serious CM. I just like our little sparring matches. I dont need to insult you to win an argument i was responding to a derogatory term i thought was being sent my way. Get it right sonny. lol



'I said I wasn't a diehard reader, I learn fast and make the difference, I reading all the time makes me no better if I can't deduce what is right or wrong.'


Carry on reading champ you got a long way to go before your arguments could even be considered worth the efforts of one such as I. Keep it up though, you'll get there one day.

Damn there's that penis envy again.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Damn there's that penis envy again.


Well we've all seen those pics of you in your boxers. I rest assured that i have nothing to worry about it.

Youre young theres hope yet. Dont worry about it.. Im sure theres some girls out there who can look past such shortcomings.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well we've all seen those pics of you in your boxers. I rest assured that i have nothing to worry about it.

You were supposed to be looking at the musles above the waistline, I'm tellin Jinzin.

Youre young theres hope yet. Dont worry about it.. Im sure theres some girls out there who can look past such shortcomings.

I wear size 14 baby, don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Ummm you can hardly talk CM my boy. The rest of the thread posted portrait pics. You were the only one who posted pics of your virtually naked body and then went on to beg the mostly male members of the forum to praise your body.

Bit suspect wouldnt you agree?

'I wear size 14 baby'

Goes to show you should never put your trust in old wives tales.


'don't hate me because I'm beautiful.'

Im sorry but who ran to another forum crying when people took a 'No comment' stance on their posted pics? Dont worry about it. Some of us have it and some of us well....DONT!!

Dont know about Marvel, but besides the Presence in DC, Michael, Lucifer and TGEB can do it on their own.

Originally posted by Synchro
Dont know about Marvel, but besides the Presence in DC, Michael, Lucifer and TGEB can do it on their own.

Synchro the only one there out of those you mentioned who could do it on their own is TGEB

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ummm you can hardly talk CM my boy. The rest of the thread posted portrait pics. You were the only one who posted pics of your virtually naked body and then went on to beg the mostly male members of the forum to praise your body.

They were by request, and you loved them from what I could tell. They've been on other threads for your info, don't deny your..........cravings.

Bit suspect wouldnt you agree?

'I wear size 14 baby'

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Goes to show you should never put your trust in old wives tales.


Dont hate because I'm gifted, I know it makes you mad.


'don't hate me because I'm beautiful.'

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im sorry but who ran to another forum crying when people took a 'No comment' stance on their posted pics? Dont worry about it. Some of us have it and some of us well....DONT!!

Who told Jinzin they were like a white Shamaar Moore, then said I was fantasizing about him. hah.

<<Synchro the only one there out of those you mentioned who could do it on their own is TGEB>>

i'll disagree, gs. lucifer could do it.

'They were by request, and you loved them from what I could tell. They've been on other threads for your info, don't deny your..........cravings.'


I believe we all asked to see what you looked like. While the rest of us posted portrait pics, you for some unknown reason decided to post pics of yourself in your boxers and in a varirty of poses which can only be described as suspect. Its cool i still luv ya CM.


'Dont hate because I'm gifted, I know it makes you mad.'

Gifted? I thought i was seeing scenes from a sci-fi convention. You look like one of the "gifted" would be a better euphemism. (Its cool look it up on an online dictionary)

"Who told Jinzin they were like a white Shamaar Moore, then said I was fantasizing about him. hah."


Just giving credit where credits due. Im comfortable enough with myself to admit that J's scrubs up well. You on the other hand need compliments from a male audience on your body building pics.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Synchro the only one there out of those you mentioned who could do it on their own is TGEB>>

i'll disagree, gs. lucifer could do it.

Lucifer needs aid to create a multiverse as shown in the comics. Phoenix singlehandedly does so and not only that phoenix is one with all of creation but has complete control down to a molecular level on all aspects of creation be it time/space, reality, matter etc.

Phoenix exists in the white hot room which is beyond the multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
'They were by request, and you loved them from what I could tell. They've been on other threads for your info, don't deny your..........cravings.'


I believe we all asked to see what you looked like. While the rest of us posted portrait pics, you for some unknown reason decided to post pics of yourself in your boxers and in a varirty of poses which can only be described as suspect. Its cool i still luv ya CM.


'Dont hate because I'm gifted, I know it makes you mad.'

Gifted? I thought i was seeing scenes from a sci-fi convention. You look like one of the "gifted" would be a better euphemism. (Its cool look it up on an online dictionary)

"Who told Jinzin they were like a white Shamaar Moore, then said I was fantasizing about him. hah."

Just giving credit where credits due. Im comfortable enough with myself to admit that J's scrubs up well. You on the other hand need compliments from a male audience on your body building pics.



Really time to prove you wrong then, since girls think I'm sooo ugly.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346066&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=187

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=352009&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4305219#post4305219

That and your own comment about my rockhard body puts your own words in your mouth. Remember mortal who models and who doesn't.
Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Personal Magnetism, Looks, Humor, Athleticism, Creativity, Skill, Versatility, Favor, i have that over you. I'm the CMASTER you're the Jean Whore,lol.

Remember why I'm the C-Master, and i deem you not worthy of your time, you have learned your place mortal.

KNEEL BEFORE YOUR MASTER!!!

??? Why is it this weird subtle brand of homoeroticism seems to follow you two wherever you go on this board?

I'm sexier than you both. But I'm a New Yorker...it's in the water. Just thought I'd add that.

Prove it. You dont' want my pics again.

hahaha...I'm not posting my photos on a comicbook website! That's weird! You're just gonna have to find my website...

I'm scared now, you're all talk still.

Beauty and scientists don't mix.

Scared? Why would you be scared? Is the hottest poster getting a million dollar sneaker endorsement or something?

I'm not a scientist...I just love knowledge, as much as I love experience.

I was teasing, you're just scared.

Do you want a sig?

I think if I posted my photo and you were a hot local chick who might give me some action if you liked what you saw, I might be scared. But since you're not....

I'll have to check out some of these other forums. I've only ever been on this board. Some sound like they're fun, lol.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346066&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=187

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=352009&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4305219#post4305219

That and your own comment about my rockhard body puts your own words in your mouth. Remember mortal who models and who doesn't.
Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Personal Magnetism, Looks, Humor, Athleticism, Creativity, Skill, Versatility, Favor, i have that over you. I'm the CMASTER you're the Jean Whore,lol.

Remember why I'm the C-Master, and i deem you not worthy of your time, you have learned your place mortal.

KNEEL BEFORE YOUR MASTER!!!


You practically bullied them girls into commenting on your pics and when you received a 'no comment' you gave people a guilt trip into saying how 'handsome' you are.

You plastered your half naked pics on a male dominated thread and got upset when the boys didnt comment on your body.


As Demi asked:

"??? Why is it this weird subtle brand of homoeroticism seems to follow you two wherever you go on this board? "


I wouldnt mind finding out the answer as well. Anything you wanna tell us CM. Its cool its the 21st century theses days theres nothing to hide.


"Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Personal Magnetism, Looks, Humor, Athleticism, Creativity, Skill, Versatility, Favor, i have that over you. I'm the CMASTER you're the Jean Whore,lol."


Well you certainly dont have me in the looks department. Boy what the hell are you

As for the other things if you wish to delude yourself into thinking thats how it is then be my guest, however your posts paint a different picture and they like the face in your pics sure aint pretty.


You model? I wouldnt mind seeing some of your photoshoots sometime. I could see you being a body model or something credit where credits due but daamn id hate to be the person who has to photoshop that boat. Good lord, Mission impossible.

Damn you really need to, an old friend of yours is there AC


try the game forum too if you're into that.

AC is still around? I wonder why he doesn't on this forum anymore. I didn't want to hurt him too badly.... lol.

I still don't get this whole, "rate my photo" thing all over the place. I get my ratings from the quality of girl I wake up next to each morning...not from a bunch of invisible users on a message board.

One last thing, though - "rate my photos boards" are inherently racist. A very attractive black guy will consistently get a lower rating than a modestly attractive white guy. Social dynamics and all that. Yet another reason why I wouldn't deem it worthwhile to grace it with my photo.

So demi not that it matters but what race are you then?

Yea

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You practically bullied them girls into commenting on your pics and when you received a 'no comment' you gave people a guilt trip into saying how 'handsome' you are.

You plastered your half naked pics on a male dominated thread and got upset when the boys didnt comment on your body.


As Demi asked:

"??? Why is it this weird subtle brand of homoeroticism seems to follow you two wherever you go on this board? "


I wouldnt mind finding out the answer as well. Anything you wanna tell us CM. Its cool its the 21st century theses days theres nothing to hide.


"Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Personal Magnetism, Looks, Humor, Athleticism, Creativity, Skill, Versatility, Favor, i have that over you. I'm the CMASTER you're the Jean Whore,lol."


Well you certainly dont have me in the looks department. Boy what the hell are you

As for the other things if you wish to delude yourself into thinking thats how it is then be my guest, however your posts paint a different picture and they like the face in your pics sure aint pretty.


You model? I wouldnt mind seeing some of your photoshoots sometime. I could see you being a body model or something credit where credits due but daamn id hate to be the person who has to photoshop that boat. Good lord, Mission impossible.


sleep1

Originally posted by demigawd
AC is still around? I wonder why he doesn't on this forum anymore. I didn't want to hurt him too badly.... lol.

I still don't get this whole, "rate my photo" thing all over the place. I get my ratings from the quality of girl I wake up next to each morning...not from a bunch of invisible users on a message board.

One last thing, though - "rate my photos boards" are inherently racist. A very attractive black guy will consistently get a lower rating than a modestly attractive white guy. Social dynamics and all that. Yet another reason why I wouldn't deem it worthwhile to grace it with my photo.


Sorry to hear that, yes me and AC traded a few words today, on the thread you are speaking of.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Sorry to hear that, yes me and AC traded a few words today, on the thread you are speaking of.


Yeah AC is a handful. When i posted for the first time a few months ago, he attacked me so me and him had a multi-thread war of words goin on. It lasted for about a week then he just stopped coming on to this forum for some reason.

Oh, I thought you would have picked up on the fact that I'm black by now, lol. Seems a much higher percentage of posters here are black than I'd have ever thought beforehand. Sociologically speaking, there are a lot of interesting conclusions to make from our assumptions before discovering the truth.

I dint realise. Yeah demis a brutha!! lol. I thought you were white

I think we've all trained ourself to identify black posters by typing the way we expect them to speak, with the "blaccent". Don't you feel a little guilty about that? I do, lol.

Originally posted by demigawd
I think we've all trained ourself to identify black posters by typing the way we expect them to speak, with the "blaccent". Don't you feel a little guilty about that? I do, lol.

Yeah i suppose so. I usually just assume that most of the male posters on here are white just because for some reason in my mind i just associate forums, especially sci-fi and comic book ones with white males. I really dont know why lol. You need to get involved in the off topic thread. Its called best debaters

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Synchro the only one there out of those you mentioned who could do it on their own is TGEB

In the context of what? Is it in the context of "Lucifer and Michael cant do it because Phoenix has Galactus on her side" or Lucifer and Michael cant do it because they cant beat Phoenix alone"?

If it is the former, they yeah you may have a point since Galactus is also one of the most powerful abstratcs in all of comicdom but IMO I'll still give Lucifer and Michael a slight edge on them.

If it is the latter, then NO. Either Lucifer or Michael are above the Phoenix Force. Since you like to tell people to educate themselves on Phoenix by reading past Phoenix threads, then Ill also say the same to you and go back to the Lucifer vs Phoenix thread. Ive countered all your points in there(to which you didnt replied back) INCLUDING the issue of Lucifer and Michael needing each other to create the multiverse while Phoenix doesnt.

And as Ive said, Phoenix creating the multiverse by herself is impressive, but its entirely another impressive thing to create Concepts such as TIME out of nowhere to which Lucifer and Michael can do individually(refer to Lucifer #16) and which the Phoenix hasnt shown us so far.

Phoenix being one with time is something but CREATING Time(which is the greater feat) is entirely another thing, theyre not the same. And tell me has Phoenix created other concepts such as Love, Happines, Sadness, etc before?

Phoenix has rewinded the timeline of a universe before? Well, Lucifer has manipulated time as well only its not a rewind but a fast forward. And not only a Universe but a WHOLE Multiverse(his multiverse), because in Lucifer's Multiverse time passes by rather quickly than the DC Multiverse(refer to Lucifer #22).

Phoenix has held the whole Multiverse before when it was collapsing? Well, ever wondered why the DC Multiverse still isnt collapsing even after there creator was gone? Yes thats right, because Michael is holding it all by HIMSELF. He, with his Demiurgic energy, wrote Yahweh's name into every atom of existence to keep it from collapsing(refer to Lucifer #46)

Dont even start with the whole aspect thing.

So yeah, as far as Im concerned, you have yet to prove that Phoenix is above the brothers. Of course I would be glad to welcome any other feats the Phoenix has done and we'll discuss it.

Originally posted by Synchro
In the context of what? Is it in the context of "Lucifer and Michael cant do it because Phoenix has Galactus on her side" or Lucifer and Michael cant do it because they cant beat Phoenix alone"?

If it is the former, they yeah you may have a point since Galactus is also one of the most powerful abstratcs in all of comicdom but IMO I'll still give Lucifer and Michael a slight edge on them.

If it is the latter, then NO. Either Lucifer or Michael are above the Phoenix Force. Since you like to tell people to educate themselves on Phoenix by reading past Phoenix threads, then Ill also say the same to you and go back to the Lucifer vs Phoenix thread. Ive countered all your points in there(to which you didnt replied back) INCLUDING the issue of Lucifer and Michael needing each other to create the multiverse while Phoenix doesnt.

And as Ive said, Phoenix creating the multiverse by herself is impressive, but its entirely another impressive thing to create Concepts such as TIME out of nowhere to which Lucifer and Michael can do individually(refer to Lucifer #16) and which the Phoenix hasnt shown us so far.

Phoenix being one with time is something but CREATING Time(which is the greater feat) is entirely another thing, theyre not the same. And tell me has Phoenix created other concepts such as Love, Happines, Sadness, etc before?

Phoenix has rewinded the timeline of a universe before? Well, Lucifer has manipulated time as well only its not a rewind but a fast forward. And not only a Universe but a WHOLE Multiverse(his multiverse), because in Lucifer's Multiverse time passes by rather quickly than the DC Multiverse(refer to Lucifer #22).

Phoenix has held the whole Multiverse before when it was collapsing? Well, ever wondered why the DC Multiverse still isnt collapsing even after there creator was gone? Yes thats right, because Michael is holding it all by HIMSELF. He, with his Demiurgic energy, wrote Yahweh's name into every atom of existence to keep it from collapsing(refer to Lucifer #46)

Dont even start with the whole aspect thing.

So yeah, as far as Im concerned, you have yet to prove that Phoenix is above the brothers. Of course I would be glad to welcome any other feats the Phoenix has done and we'll discuss it.

woooooooow clappingnotworthypunk

<<Lucifer needs aid to create a multiverse as shown in the comics. Phoenix singlehandedly does so and not only that phoenix is one with all of creation but has complete control down to a molecular level on all aspects of creation be it time/space, reality, matter etc.

Phoenix exists in the white hot room which is beyond the multiverse.>>

perhaps. let me rephrase - full phoenix force could not beat lucifer. perhaps lucifer couldn't beat pf either, though if he is truly second behind god, than he certainly could - whether he needs help or not creating a multiverse. (which by the way i'm not entirely sure about. there is more to that story than i can recall at this moment . . .)

"And as Ive said, Phoenix creating the multiverse by herself is impressive, but its entirely another impressive thing to create Concepts such as TIME out of nowhere to which Lucifer and Michael can do individually(refer to Lucifer #16) and which the Phoenix hasnt shown us so far.

"Phoenix being one with time is something but CREATING Time(which is the greater feat) is entirely another thing, theyre not the same. And tell me has Phoenix created other concepts such as Love, Happines, Sadness, etc before?"


Synchro. In Marvel things such as time, happiness, sadness and so on are embodied by the abstracts of each universe. Phoenix is accredited for creating the abstracts in FF. Phoenix is accredited for making all of marvel creation. For goodness sake it is the primal force of creation which makes all that is. Beyond creation is the white hot room where things such as time and concepts such as love and hate are nothing. That is where the phoenix exists. Phoenix only incarnates itself into our plane of reality to carry out work which only it is capable of doing for the sake of creation. For example containing the multiversal reset switch that is the M'Kraan crystal. It is stated in the X ternals 3 that phoenix is the only being capable of such a feat.


"Phoenix has rewinded the timeline of a universe before? Well, Lucifer has manipulated time as well only its not a rewind but a fast forward. And not only a Universe but a WHOLE Multiverse(his multiverse), because in Lucifer's Multiverse time passes by rather quickly than the DC Multiverse(refer to Lucifer #22)."


Phoenix holding a universe in its hand and and not only restructuring its matter but its time and space is not the limit of her power. She did it on a whim. Ive already posted scans of the scene before and ive shown the conversations shes had with a phoenix host which further shows how insignificant such an action is to her.

There isnothing beyond achieving both telepathic and telekinetic godhood. Its not just a comic phrase its actually a real world phrase as well synchro. Jean has control over all that is down to a molecular level, all matter, all time/space all reality, her consciousness has power over it all that is telekinetic godhood. Please look it up.

Jean has achieved telepathic godhood as also stated and shown in New Xmen and other titles. Her consciousness permeates all, she is the sum and substace of all that is. She is one with the mystic tree of life, she is the heart and soul of everything. She is all that is good in everything.

Phoenix in Marvel is stated to be second to TOAA. Lucifer or Michael are not beating her. She creates all that is she is one with all that is and she is beyond all that is.

Ive just searched through the forums pages and ive added most of my previous phoenix threads to my favourites. I'll happily bump them to the first page so that you can read and see all that you need to know. You especially supremethor. Have you forgotten what you said above? Stop jumping on the bandwagon of others. If you have something to say then debate.

"Dont even start with the whole aspect thing."

If i wish to start with the aspect thing im certainly entitled to because it is heavily suggeested by action, parallels, name and appearance. It is also heavily suggested in the DC crossover. You cant ignore it. Phoenixes actual feats in comic, coupled with where shes shown to reside and recorporate (the white hot room) plus the fact that some of her feats are stated in the comics to be beyond all other beings and some just havent been matched or surpassed by other marvel beings further supports that she is something beyond them. To ignore it all is foolish

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive just searched through the forums pages and ive added most of my previous phoenix threads to my favourites. I'll happily bump them to the first page so that you can read and see all that you need to know. You especially supremethor. Have you forgotten what you said above? Stop jumping on the bandwagon of others. If you have something to say then debate.

crybaby.................why cant we all just getdrunk

Originally posted by Synchro
Dont know about Marvel, but besides the Presence in DC, Michael, Lucifer and TGEB can do it on their own.

Presence...TOAA
Great Beast...HOTU
Michael...LT
Lucifer...True Beyonders

...IG

Not exact matches but close enough.

Seriously, your just repeating all that youve said before. Phoenix creating the abstracts isnt proof that Pheonix can also create time, sadness, love, etc. It only means that she has to create someone that embodies that concepts for that concept to actually exist, meaning she has to have help. It also means that she cant control this concepts by herself since she actually needs the abstracts to do it. I mean if she can create and control them all by herself then abstracts isnt needed.

Lucifer on the other hand, created all this concepts without any abstracts to embody it. He can do it by himself because thats what God has given him---> shaping and controlling all that is.

Phoenix holding a universe in her hand isnt much of an argument either. It only means that she can increase her height or exist outside the multiverse, both of which Lucifer has done before. And Lucifer also fast forwarded his whole Multiverse on a whim as well. He shapes Multiverses by pure will for pete's sake. Refer to Lucifer #16

Telepathic and Telekinetic Godhood? What the hell, Lucifer is WILL INCARNATE for crying out loud, do you seriously think those abilities has an effect on him?

Dont bring up being one with everything either, just because Phoenix is one with something and Lucifer isnt doesnt mean she's stronger than him. Coz if we were to go by your logic then Dream of the Endless is stronger than Lucifer because he's one with something(dreams). But thats not really the case, is it?

Second to TOAA? well Lucifer and Michael are second to The Presence.
Beyond all that is? well so is Lucifer and Michael.

And about the aspect thing, I didnt mean that I dont believe that Phoenix is aspect of TOAA, I just meant that bringing it up as another reason for Phoenix being above Lucifer is pointless because Lucifer has shown that he's above such aspects by ignoring one of them.

And no, I dont need to know Phoenix more because Ive already learned almost everything about her by reading the Phoenix Threads(isnt this posts of mine evident of that?). No offense GS, but by reading your response, it seems that your the one who has alot to learn about somebody, and in your case you have ALOT to learn about Lucifer and Michael.

The Infinity Gauntlet cant, nor can Lucifer or Michael. You know nothing of the true beyonders to say that B. All you know is that they are the power behind all the ccubes.

Obviously Presence, TOAA and the Great Beast can if what i hear is true. HOTU im not entirely sure about even though i own The End but if it truly is all of Gods power then yes obviously.

I missed ya B good to have u back lol

Originally posted by supremthor
crybaby.................why cant we all just getdrunk

You'd have to be part of the Phoenix cult for that to happen.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure supremthor already read your other posts. Not everybodies going to agree with you G.S. Even when you say it's a fact, it's still just your opinion.

Your not changing anybodies mind, nor will anyone change yours. By now, I can guess at most of what your saying in these new post without reading them.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Presence...TOAA
Great Beast...HOTU
Michael...LT
Lucifer...True Beyonders

...IG

Not exact matches but close enough.

Hmm... all I can give you is my opinion on it since I dont think you'll change your mind on that. Anyway my opinion of it is:

TOAA=The Presence=TGEB

and

Michael=True Beyonders=Lucifer

ok well ill ask again what ppl think, on a few forums ago someone stated that The Phoenix Force went directly INTO The Source. this supposedly happened in a DC/Marvel crossover.

Now if The Presence and TOAA are not the same beings, TOAA must be The Source since the Phoenix Force went into it (also since The Source is above all of creation kinda like the meaning TOAA). The Source is God's Will in Creation/a part of Gods Power. also Syncho said Lucifer treated The Source like it was nothing then Lucifer could win all by himself.

Originally posted by Synchro
Hmm... all I can give you is my opinion on it since I dont think you'll change your mind on that. Anyway my opinion of it is:

TOAA=The Presence=TGEB

and

Michael=True Beyonders=Lucifer

That's why I said it wasn't exact. I was trying to pair them. But GB is equal to the Presence.

ah, ok.

This isn't necessarily true. That's like saying that the Presence couldn't create existence on his own so he had to have help, instead of assigning roles to different individuals. Just because someone is assigned a function by a being higher on the food chain doesn't mean the person making the assignment can't do the job themself. It's called delegation.


You're right-the appearance of holding a universe in one's hand doesn't mean much. However a third party saying "I would just let that universe die" is a totally different matter.



It's the Heart of the UNIVERSE, not MULTIVERSE. Thanos destroyed ONE universe, not the totality of the multiverse. How did this misconception ever begin? Not chastising you, GS, but just trying to debunk this falsehood. He states like 50 times in times in those 6 issues that he destroyed the UNIVERSE.

Originally posted by kevdude
ok well ill ask again what ppl think, on a few forums ago someone stated that The Phoenix Force went directly INTO The Source. this supposedly happened in a DC/Marvel crossover.

Now if The Presence and TOAA are not the same beings, TOAA must be The Source since the Phoenix Force went into it (also since The Source is above all of creation kinda like the meaning TOAA). The Source is God's Will in Creation/a part of Gods Power. also Syncho said Lucifer treated The Source like it was nothing then Lucifer could win all by himself.

First off, it's a crossover.

Secondly, TOAA is the top being like the Presence is. The Source isn't the top being. Lucifer and Michael created the Multiverse and neither cares for the Source's powers. LT and all creation is below TOAA.

"Seriously, your just repeating all that youve said before. Phoenix creating the abstracts isnt proof that Pheonix can also create time, sadness, love, etc. It only means that she has to create someone that embodies that concepts for that concept to actually exist, meaning she has to have help. It also means that she cant control this concepts by herself since she actually needs the abstracts to do it. I mean if she can create and control them all by herself then abstracts isnt needed.

Lucifer on the other hand, created all this concepts without any abstracts to embody it. He can do it by himself because thats what God has given him---> shaping and controlling all that is. "


Thats ridiculous Synchro. What youre not understanding is without creation there is nothingness, just a void. The primal force of creation is responsible for all that is outside the white hot room. The white hot contains all that is. Universes are represented as minute spheres of energy. In the white hot room time/space and such concepts are nothing. Phoenix beyond them. All of creation includes all of the things you mention. What part of THE primal force of creation dont you get. It is its job to create everything and maintain the cycle of existence which it does by incarnating itself into our plane of existence to carry out its work.


"Lucifer on the other hand, created all this concepts without any abstracts to embody it. He can do it by himself because thats what God has given him---> shaping and controlling all that is. "


Phoenix creating abstracts doesnt mean it is incapable of doing the things they do themselves. That ssilly logic Synch. Thats like saying Galactus cant do all the things his heralds do. Phoenix has also shown the extent of its power. Its stated that the phoenix has telepathic and telekinetic godhood. It is a real world term Synch. Look it up theres nothing greater than that. How many times do i have to repeat myself. It is control over all that is down to the molecular level, all aspects of time, space, reality, matter EVERYTHING. Tell me again phoenix cant do the abstracts stuff herself.


"Phoenix holding a universe in her hand isnt much of an argument either. It only means that she can increase her height or exist outside the multiverse, both of which Lucifer has done before."


That is really silly synchro. No it doesnt mean that. Because if it did she would still be confined to that one reality and no amount of growing would change that. Jean was in the white hot room when she did it and all that is is represented in their. It is common knowledge that the WHR is beyond creation so please think about what youre saying. By your own admission your not the best marvel expert so before you say such preposterous things check out new xmen.


"Telepathic and Telekinetic Godhood? What the hell, Lucifer is WILL INCARNATE for crying out loud, do you seriously think those abilities has an effect on him?

Dont bring up being one with everything either, just because Phoenix is one with something and Lucifer isnt doesnt mean she's stronger than him. Coz if we were to go by your logic then Dream of the Endless is stronger than Lucifer because he's one with something(dreams). But thats not really the case, is it?"


Silly silly Synchro. Youre logic is flawed. Youve made apparent to me the depth of your understanding. Let me educate you now. Creating existence and being one with it as well puts you on a higher status than merely just making a multiverse. From what youre saying liken Lucifer to the Infinity G and Phoenix to HOTU. As stated in the comics The End more specifically. Thanos said while the IG gave him godlike power and control over all aspects of time, space, reality, mind and soul it was only external control. The HOTU was so much more because not only was he given dominion over those aspects but it also made him one with all of those aspects which gave him far greater power and control.

Just like phoenix creates existence and is one with it her consciousness permeates all it extends over matter, energy and all of those aspects down to a molecular level. Lucifer has nowhere near that control.



"Second to TOAA? well Lucifer and Michael are second to The Presence.
Beyond all that is? well so is Lucifer and Michael."


Exactly so theyre at least on the same level in their respective creations however phoenix, you cant just dismiss it as easily as you have been. However as you now know from the above phoenix is also so much more.

You know nothing of the true beyonders to put them as equal to Lucifer and the like. Thats really silly.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame This isn't necessarily true. That's like saying that the Presence couldn't create existence on his own so he had to have help, instead of assigning roles to different individuals. Just because someone is assigned a function by a being higher on the food chain doesn't mean the person making the assignment can't do the job themself. It's called delegation.

Read the Lucifer Comic Book, The Presence didnt need help in creating his Multiverse, heck he didnt even created it at ALL. He let Lucifer and Michael created it because as was stated in Lucifer #38, that and all the things Lucifer and Michael has gone through was a way for him to decide who will succeed him.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame You're right-the appearance of holding a universe in one's hand doesn't mean much. However a third party saying "I would just let that universe die" is a totally different matter.

It doesnt mean much if were talking about that as a reason for Phoenix being above Lucifer and Michael. As I said, Lucifer has been shown to be doing it before.

What is the sources role in Dc?

gotta go bed i'll continue this 2morrow.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats ridiculous Synchro. What youre not understanding is without creation there is nothingness, just a void. The primal force of creation is responsible for all that is outside the white hot room. The white hot contains all that is. Universes are represented as minute spheres of energy. In the white hot room time/space and such concepts are nothing. Phoenix beyond them. All of creation includes all of the things you mention. What part of THE primal force of creation dont you get. It is its job to create everything and maintain the cycle of existence which it does by incarnating itself into our plane of existence to carry out its work.

Phoenix creating abstracts doesnt mean it is incapable of doing the things they do themselves. That ssilly logic Synch. Thats like saying Galactus cant do all the things his heralds do. Phoenix has also shown the extent of its power. Its stated that the phoenix has telepathic and telekinetic godhood. It is a real world term Synch. Look it up theres nothing greater than that. How many times do i have to repeat myself. It is control over all that is down to the molecular level, all aspects of time, space, reality, matter EVERYTHING. Tell me again phoenix cant do the abstracts stuff herself.

Please. Youve just shown me evidence that Phoenix creates all LIFE not ALL THAT IS. Eternity only said that the Phoenix creates life. He never said that she creates concepts all by herself as well. Give me evidence that Phoenix created ALL THAT IS. Bear in mind that creating all life is different than creating concepts.

Dont forget about Phoenix creating Time as well, show me evidence wher she can also create time out of nowhere, because as far as Im concerned, there isnt an abstract who embodies time.

Primal Force of Creation? LOL!!!! silly silly GS you have much to learn about the way of Lucifer and Michael. Look up on Lucifer #11, Sandalphon described Michael as the "word of fire that builds and breaks" he described Michael as the one who builds and the one who destroys---> meaning Michael alone is also desribed as THE Primal Force of Creation, Sandalphon didnt say anything about Lucifer. But does that mean Michael can really do anything? NO. So what makes you think that Phoenix being Primal force of creation can do anything?


Originally posted by GalacticStorm That is really silly synchro. No it doesnt mean that. Because if it did she would still be confined to that one reality and no amount of growing would change that. Jean was in the white hot room when she did it and all that is is represented in their. It is common knowledge that the WHR is beyond creation so please think about what youre saying. By your own admission your not the best marvel expert so before you say such preposterous things check out new xmen.

Well Lucifer has done the same thing GS in Lucifer #15. Sorry but it still doesnt say much.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Silly silly Synchro. Youre logic is flawed. Youve made apparent to me the depth of your understanding. Let me educate you now. Creating existence and being one with it as well puts you on a higher status than merely just making a multiverse. From what youre saying liken Lucifer to the Infinity G and Phoenix to HOTU. As stated in the comics The End more specifically. Thanos said while the IG gave him godlike power and control over all aspects of time, space, reality, mind and soul it was only external control. The HOTU was so much more because not only was he given dominion over those aspects but it also made him one with all of those aspects which gave him far greater power and control.

Ah, but Lucifer not embodying anything only works when he's in the DC Multiverse. When he's in his own Multiverse he is one with everything there is. Here's what was said while he was shaping his Multiverse:

"And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns"

He also said that he's the "alpha and the omega, the beginning and end"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Just like phoenix creates existence and is one with it her consciousness permeates all it extends over matter, energy and all of those aspects down to a molecular level. Lucifer has nowhere near that control.

Lucifer has nowhere near that control? LOL!!!! again more things to educate GS. How do you think Lucifer shaped the Multiverse? what do you think Michael brough to the table? MATTER. Thats what Michael brought to the table and Lucifer by shaping that matter into a Multiverse by PURE WILL showed that he has GREATER CONTROL over matter than Phoenix, and you said that Phoenix has control over all on the molecular level? LOL!!! ONLY to the molecular level? Sorry but Lucifer has control over everything down to the sub-atomic level.

And no. Phoenix doesnt have control over DIVINE Energy.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Exactly so theyre at least on the same level in their respective creations however phoenix, you cant just dismiss it as easily as you have been. However as you now know from the above phoenix is also so much more.

Im sorry but who is dismissing who here? so your saying that Im dismissing Phoenix and your not dismissing Lucifer and Michael? Do you want me to have quotes in here.

And no sorry, you have not proven it yet GS. Sorry, Lucifer and Michael are above Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You know nothing of the true beyonders to put them as equal to Lucifer and the like. Thats really silly.

And you know nothing of Michael and Lucifer to put them below the True Beyonders. Thats really silly

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What is the sources role in Dc?

The Source is an aspect of the Presence and its the one who got ignored by Lucifer.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, I thought you would have picked up on the fact that I'm black by now, lol. Seems a much higher percentage of posters here are black than I'd have ever thought beforehand. Sociologically speaking, there are a lot of interesting conclusions to make from our assumptions before discovering the truth.

Those threads aren't so bad,because in real life, brutha's get em all, and everyone knows that.

Damn you peoople, multiquote your arguments, CTRL+V to copy the (originally posted by xxxx), CTRL _C to paste it.and place it right before your statement(no spaces), then copy and paste right at the end of the statement, 1 space.

The C-Master has spoken.

"Please. Youve just shown me evidence that Phoenix creates all LIFE not ALL THAT IS. Eternity only said that the Phoenix creates life. He never said that she creates concepts all by herself as well. Give me evidence that Phoenix created ALL THAT IS. Bear in mind that creating all life is different than creating concepts."


Here is the first conversation between Jean and her Phoenix self in classic Xmen:



"All that is...I am.

Nothing that is, is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life

All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.

Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself."



This is the union of the primal force of creation and Jean. Notice Jeans phoenix self again clarifies that it is everything, not just life, but the stars and planets all matter. Jean states this again when in hospital. She says everything is a part of her the stars, the planets etc Phoenix also says that it has made everything (as is later supported more recently in New Xmen and F4) Everythng in existence is created by Phoenix it is THE primal force of creation with the job of making and maintaining creation. Again jeans role as a sephiroth is again supported here where it says 'the ultimate force at last given means to express itself" with sephiroth (as you all should know by now) a means for god to carry out his work within our plane of existence via an avatar, a vessel for his essence.


"Dont forget about Phoenix creating Time as well, show me evidence wher she can also create time out of nowhere, because as far as Im concerned, there isnt an abstract who embodies time."


You really dont know anything about Marvel do you? There is an abstract that embodies time and its name is Kronos and he is another creation of phoenix. "All that is" is touched by phoenix.



"Force of Creation? LOL!!!! silly silly GS you have much to learn about the way of Lucifer and Michael. Look up on Lucifer #11, Sandalphon described Michael as the "word of fire that builds and breaks" he described Michael as the one who builds and the one who destroys---> meaning Michael alone is also desribed as THE Primal Force of Creation"



Im disappointed Synch. I expect better from you. Thats a massive assumption. Michael isnt once called the primal force of creation youre just assuming that thats one of his roles because he's referred to as one "that builds and breaks?" I have to assume nothing. Phoenix is actually stated to be the THE primal force of creation that has made everything and is one with everything. Phoenix is accredited for the creation of the abstracts. Eternity, Infinity, Order and Chaos, Love and Hate, Death, Kronos just to name a few. Many cosmics build and destroy what you've described far from puts him in the position of the primal force of creation in DC. Meaning michael is described as the primal force of creation. Psssh


"Well Lucifer has done the same thing GS in Lucifer #15. Sorry but it still doesnt say much. "


Well Phoenix surveys all of existence from the white hot room. All realities and timelines are hers to survey from there. All universes are insignificant spheres of energy from her perspective. Actually surveying THE multiverse and being responsible for its creation is also more impressive than making a little side one and having power over that. Who's to say how the one Lucifer made compares to the actual multiverse proper. Just like Franklin Richards can make universes under his own power they are still just pocket universes which pale in comparison to the proper one. Until you can show proof that this multiverse Lucifer created is just as grand and to the same scale of the proper multiverse then his feat pales in comparison to phoenixes im afraid. I believe Lucifer and Michael together are required to make a multiverse. That is yet another example of how phoenix is beyond them.



"Ah, but Lucifer not embodying anything only works when he's in the DC Multiverse. When he's in his own Multiverse he is one with everything there is. Here's what was said while he was shaping his Multiverse:

"And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns"


Do you wanna explain to me how that quote proves that Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse, how his essence courses through it like phoenixes does in the actual multiverse proper? I really cant see it. I doubt it actually does Synch. I put it down to misinterpretation or just wishful thinking.

Im sorry but its still not as good as being responsible for the proper multiverse.



"Lucifer has nowhere near that control? LOL!!!! again more things to educate GS. How do you think Lucifer shaped the Multiverse? what do you think Michael brough to the table? MATTER. Thats what Michael brought to the table and Lucifer by shaping that matter into a Multiverse by PURE WILL showed that he has GREATER CONTROL over matter than Phoenix, and you said that Phoenix has control over all on the molecular level? LOL!!! ONLY to the molecular level? Sorry but Lucifer has control over everything down to the sub-atomic level. "


There you go again. Your own evidence is making it quite clear that individually neither Michael or Lucifer is a match for the primal force of creation that is phoenix. They cant make multiverses by themselves, its a joint effort. Impressive, but no comparison, simple as. Phoenix provides the matter, phoenix alone shapes it into the planets and constellations, phoenix creates the abstracts, phoenix is one with its creation, its essence permeates all that is. End of.

Down to a sub atomic level? Wouldnt mind some issue numbers and quotes Synch. Lucifer still didnt provide the matter himself so its still not as impressive im afraid. Jointly they could probably defeat phoenix but not by their lonesomes. Im afraid. Let the inner fanboy go Synch its quite obvious that phoenix is beyond either of them individually.


"And no. Phoenix doesnt have control over DIVINE Energy."

Well as you know its heavily suggested by name, parallels , action and locales that the primal force of creation is an aspect of God. Its too explicit and abundant to be ignored. Please dont do it for the sake of winning an argument because that is so low. So back on topic it cant be ruled out. Who knows Synchy boy who knows...



"Im sorry but who is dismissing who here? so your saying that Im dismissing Phoenix and your not dismissing Lucifer and Michael? Do you want me to have quotes in here.

And no sorry, you have not proven it yet GS. Sorry, Lucifer and Michael are above Phoenix."


Your quotes havent done you any good thus far. If anything they've had a negative effect on your case. Dont worry about it id save yourself the effort. Theyre greater than Phoenix are they? Now who's dismissing who? None of them have done anything greater than phoenix, it takes a joint effort from them to create a multiverse and phoenix does it singlehandedly yet youre still going to turn around and say that individually theyre greater?

We'll probably never know for certain but from the evidence we've both presented phoenix looks beyond them individually without a doubt. Could it beat them together? Doubt that very much from what youre saying but on their own they reall arent as impressive as the primal force of creation. You did well mate.

GO GALACTIC, GO GALACTIC!!! WHOO-HOO!!!

Jesus man, use the multiquote function.

Wow. You realize that the Silver Surfer isn't anywhere near Galactus or Phoenix's level, right Hulk Power?

If he didnt he does now lol

Only kidding GS but everytime you go off on a Phoenix thread I think of that Lord S post, you overbearing fanboy, blah, blah, blah. It was a classic

I still like you though you overbearing fanboy blah blah blah

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Only kidding GS but everytime you go off on a Phoenix thread I think of that Lord S post, you overbearing fanboy, blah, blah, blah. It was a classic

I still like you though you overbearing fanboy blah blah blah

Aren't we all, in one way or another?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Aren't we all, in one way or another?

Yes but no one else has read my fanboy character It shows my age CC

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Here is the first conversation between Jean and her Phoenix self in classic Xmen:



"All that is...I am.

Nothing that is, is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life

All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.

Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself."



This is the union of the primal force of creation and Jean. Notice Jeans phoenix self again clarifies that it is everything, not just life, but the stars and planets all matter. Jean states this again when in hospital. She says everything is a part of her the stars, the planets etc Phoenix also says that it has made everything (as is later supported more recently in New Xmen and F4) Everythng in existence is created by Phoenix it is THE primal force of creation with the job of making and maintaining creation. Again jeans role as a sephiroth is again supported here where it says 'the ultimate force at last given means to express itself" with sephiroth (as you all should know by now) a means for god to carry out his work within our plane of existence via an avatar, a vessel for his essence.

Thats it. Ive come to the conclusion that your understanding of things is as blurry as ever.

What the hell does "All that is... I am" support about her CREATING everything? What the hell does stars, planets, etc. being one with her means? It just means that she is ONE with everything. Just like Spectre say that he's "all of the madness of God". He's one with the wrath of God but it doesnt mean that he created the Wrath of God, does he?

Nice Try matey.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm You really dont know anything about Marvel do you? There is an abstract that embodies time and its name is Kronos and he is another creation of phoenix. "All that is" is touched by phoenix.

Ok Ill admit that Im wrong here. But its ok, it didnt do any damage to my arguments considering that you havent proven yet that Phoenix can create concepts without the abstracts.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im disappointed Synch. I expect better from you. Thats a massive assumption. Michael isnt once called the primal force of creation youre just assuming that thats one of his roles because he's referred to as one "that builds and breaks?" I have to assume nothing. Phoenix is actually stated to be the THE primal force of creation that has made everything and is one with everything. Phoenix is accredited for the creation of the abstracts. Eternity, Infinity, Order and Chaos, Love and Hate, Death, Kronos just to name a few. Many cosmics build and destroy what you've described far from puts him in the position of the primal force of creation in DC. Meaning michael is described as the primal force of creation. Psssh

lol!!! I appreciate you expecting more from me, I really do. But frankly, I feel the same way about you... if not more. So your now accusing me of doing a massive assumption? or you just cant counter it? Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks is Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks. There's no way around it GS. Dont argue with the facts. Base on that statement, he is THE Primal Force of Creation. Or are you saying now that you have a new definition of "Primal Force of Creatin"?

Phoenix being one with everything? Big Deal. The DC Multiverse is The Presence's turf so naturally he should be the one who is one with everything there, not Michael. But hey dont worry my young apprentice because Michael is equal to Lucifer and Lucifer has shown that he is one with everything in his own Multiverse. So what would that mean if Michael has his own Multiverse? Yes you got it GS, your learning well.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Who's to say how the one Lucifer made compares to the actual multiverse proper. Just like Franklin Richards can make universes under his own power they are still just pocket universes which pale in comparison to the proper one. Until you can show proof that this multiverse Lucifer created is just as grand and to the same scale of the proper multiverse then his feat pales in comparison to phoenixes im afraid. I believe Lucifer and Michael together are required to make a multiverse. That is yet another example of how phoenix is beyond them.

Hahaha!!!! A bit of a desperation there eh, GS? Now your bringing up the validity of Lucifer's Multiverse as a proper Multiverse? Just to stay in the game, huh? What a shame. But anyway, Im glad to help someone who is in need of learning, so its ok GS.

So you want proof if Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand as a proper Multiverse, huh? Well, listen carefully. In Lucifer #20 The Presence sent Michael to Lucifer to tell him that The Presence decreed that there should only be ONE Multiverse. That alone is enough to say that Lucifer's Multiverse is as much of a proper and as much of a threat to the Presence's Multiverse(DC).

But knowing you, it wont be enough, so here's another one. In the same issue, after learning of the order of God, Lucifer became very angry and instead of following Presence's orders, he instead created an "infinity" of gates which was folded through time and space. So theres now gates in every world, every realm, and every universe in Lucy's Multiverse AND The Presence's Multiverse. By doing that, he invited EVERYONE in the Presence's Multiverse to come and stay in his Multiverse if they dont like The Presence's rule.

So what does that tell you? To be abe to to invite EVERYONE in a Multiverse to his own Multiverse only means that Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand, proper and large as DC Multiverse which is a proper Multiverse. Unless your trying to say that DC is not a proper multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Do you wanna explain to me how that quote proves that Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse, how his essence courses through it like phoenixes does in the actual multiverse proper? I really cant see it. I doubt it actually does Synch. I put it down to misinterpretation or just wishful thinking.

Your right, you dont get it. *sigh* oh well.

Enact: To act (something) out, as on large. For ex. "He enacted the part of the prince in a play"

So in Lucifer, by saying that "enacting his name, weaving the luminous cloud-stuff of a new cosmos into suns ", means that he has become one with everything by putting his essence(name) into the "luminous cloud-stuff"(matter) with which it formed hes cosmos. With that, Lucifer is effectively ACTING out(Enacting) as the sun, starts, planets, everything.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im sorry but its still not as good as being responsible for the proper multiverse.

Look above.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm There you go again. Your own evidence is making it quite clear that individually neither Michael or Lucifer is a match for the primal force of creation that is phoenix. They cant make multiverses by themselves, its a joint effort. Impressive, but no comparison, simple as. Phoenix provides the matter, phoenix alone shapes it into the planets and constellations, phoenix creates the abstracts, phoenix is one with its creation, its essence permeates all that is. End of.

And there you go again as well. Making wild assumptions without knowing what your talking about. Im afraid thats not the case in every Multiverse in the Omniverse. Some Multiverse are made in a different way than other Multiverse. The Preacher-verse for example, was made by just raw divine energy by the God there. That God didnt need to shape anything by his will. He first made matter(by raw energy ofcourse) and made that matter into suns, stars, etc. by dishing out his energy on it which instantly created everything.

Sorry, but its not a fact that Phoenix has done the same way Lucifer did. Assumptions, Assumptions, lalala.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Down to a sub atomic level? Wouldnt mind some issue numbers and quotes Synch. Lucifer still didnt provide the matter himself so its still not as impressive im afraid. Jointly they could probably defeat phoenix but not by their lonesomes. Im afraid. Let the inner fanboy go Synch its quite obvious that phoenix is beyond either of them individually.

Sure GS, I wouldnt mind giving you some evidence of it. In Lucifer #16, when he was done "testing" his own version of Adam and Eve, he reduced them into nothingness by just a feint touch, yes you heard me he literally reduced them into NOTHINGNESS, its as if nothing really happened.

Inner Fanboy? thats ok. But please dont deny that you love Phoenix so much that if she tells you to jump, you'll exactly do the same thing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Well as you know its heavily suggested by name, parallels , action and locales that the primal force of creation is an aspect of God. Its too explicit and abundant to be ignored. Please dont do it for the sake of winning an argument because that is so low. So back on topic it cant be ruled out. Who knows Synchy boy who knows...

And as you should already know, its pointless to bring up an aspect of God when your going up against the FAVORITE and PERFECT creation of God. And yes GS, Phoenix doesnt have control over divine energy, because if thats the case then she should also have control of God's energy himself. Now matter how low it is , its still relevant. I guess it only shows that you cant counter it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Your quotes havent done you any good thus far. If anything they've had a negative effect on your case. Dont worry about it id save yourself the effort. Theyre greater than Phoenix are they? Now who's dismissing who? None of them have done anything greater than phoenix, it takes a joint effort from them to create a multiverse and phoenix does it singlehandedly yet youre still going to turn around and say that individually theyre greater?

*sigh*, poor poor GS, our argument has affected even his ability to read. Quote me in that post of mine of me denying about dismissing Phoenix. I AM dismissing Phoenix. You even want me to shout it?

In that post I was merely trying to say that you make it seem like I was the ONLY one dismissing someone here, when your past quotes proves the same to you casually dismissing Lucifer and Michael

Originally posted by GalacticStorm We'll probably never know for certain but from the evidence we've both presented phoenix looks beyond them individually without a doubt. Could it beat them together? Doubt that very much from what youre saying but on their own they reall arent as impressive as the primal force of creation. You did well mate.

I guess its ok to dream GS, its ok.

this should be called Synchro vs GalacticStorm

""""""Thats it. Ive come to the conclusion that your understanding of things is as blurry as ever.

What the hell does "All that is... I am" support about her CREATING everything? What the hell does stars, planets, etc. being one with her means? It just means that she is ONE with everything. Just like Spectre say that he's "all of the madness of God". He's one with the wrath of God but it doesnt mean that he created the Wrath of God, does he?

Nice Try matey."""""""



My understanding is blurry? Silly boy. "All that is I am" Means that all of creation is a part of her. That much is obvious to all but a dunce. Creation is everything that is overseen from the white hot room. That is the multiverse, time/space, reality, matter energy etc. That is creation. Phoenix is the primal force of creation which has been accredited in Uncanny Xmen, Classic Xmen F4 and various other X-titles as the force responsible for creation. This has been the case from its conception till the prsent. Read Marvel and educate yourself.



""""Nice Try matey"""""


Couldnt hav said it better myself.



"""""Ok Ill admit that Im wrong here. But its ok, it didnt do any damage to my arguments considering that you havent proven yet that Phoenix can create concepts without the abstracts.""""""



Thats ridiculous Synch. How the mighty have fallen. You've resorted to nitpicking in order to win an argument even though you know exactly what im saying because its quite obvious to those of a neutral mindset. The abstracts embody those concepts. The abstracts are those concepts made corporeal. Phoenix created those abstracts and Phoenix is one with those abstracts. Having abstracts is a marvel thing, just deal with it Synch. Really. Its like saying Galactus cant do the things SS does.




"""""
Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks is Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks. There's no way around it GS. Dont argue with the facts. Base on that statement, he is THE Primal Force of Creation."""""""



You really cant be serious? Someone please come on here and make apparent to this boy how ridiculous his statement is. Being called the one who builds and breaks does not make you the primal force of creation. Not once is Michael called the primal of creation. There are many beings in marvel who build and break. The celestials for example are creators. If they deem there creations unworthy then they destroy them. That term could be applied to them does that make them the primal force of creation? Dont be silly. Oh how desperate youve become.

For goodness sake you could apply that term to Franklin Richards with his Lego set, but does that make him the primal force of creation. Laughable simply laughable. Oh how you've made me chuckle.



""""""Phoenix being one with everything? Big Deal. The DC Multiverse is The Presence's turf so naturally he should be the one who is one with everything there, not Michael. But hey dont worry my young apprentice because Michael is equal to Lucifer and Lucifer has shown that he is one with everything in his own Multiverse. So what would that mean if Michael has his own Multiverse? Yes you got it GS, your learning well.""""""


Exactly my point. Neither Lucifer or Michael are one with the multiverse proper in DC the prsence is. In Marvel its phoenix who is also funnily enough suggested to be an aspect of TOAA. Im sorry Synchy but you have yet to tell me where in that quote it says anything about Lucifer being one with his multiverse, where does it say his consciousness permeates it and all of creation flows through him? Exactly it doesnt. He's just not on that level and you have yet to prove that he is because you cannot.






""""""""So you want proof if Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand as a proper Multiverse, huh? Well, listen carefully. In Lucifer #20 The Presence sent Michael to Lucifer to tell him that The Presence decreed that there should only be ONE Multiverse. That alone is enough to say that Lucifer's Multiverse is as much of a proper and as much of a threat to the Presence's Multiverse(DC).

But knowing you, it wont be enough, so here's another one. In the same issue, after learning of the order of God, Lucifer became very angry and instead of following Presence's orders, he instead created an "infinity" of gates which was folded through time and space. So theres now gates in every world, every realm, and every universe in Lucy's Multiverse AND The Presence's Multiverse. By doing that, he invited EVERYONE in the Presence's Multiverse to come and stay in his Multiverse if they dont like The Presence's rule.

So what does that tell you? To be abe to to invite EVERYONE in a Multiverse to his own Multiverse only means that Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand, proper and large as DC Multiverse which is a proper Multiverse. Unless your trying to say that DC is not a proper multiverse. """""""""""



Prsence saying that there should only be one multiverse does not mean that Lucifers is as important or on the same scale as the proper one.


Oh dear Synch you typed all of that and it still proved not a thing. The U.S could invite every man, woman or child to leav etheir countries to live their but does that mean the U.S is as grand or important as the rest of the planets continents. No sirree. Good try tho. Lets say i was going to entertain your idea as flawed as the concepts behind it are, Lucifer is still not one with his multiverse his essence doesnt permeate it. He has mere external power over it unlike Phoenix with marvels multiverse. Its like comparing the control of the Infinity Gauntlet to the control and power offered by the HOTU. Admirable attempt.



Oh i forgot. Was i meant to be impressed by the infinity gates feat as well? Pssh. How do you think all the universese and realities in Marvel are connected together? Yep you got it sonny!!!




"""""""Enact: To act (something) out, as on large. For ex. "He enacted the part of the prince in a play"

So in Lucifer, by saying that "enacting his name, weaving the luminous cloud-stuff of a new cosmos into suns ", means that he has become one with everything by putting his essence(name) into the "luminous cloud-stuff"(matter) with which it formed hes cosmos. With that, Lucifer is effectively ACTING out(Enacting) as the sun, starts, planets, everything.""""""""



Listen up synchy my boy. You could learn a lot from me. Did you know that another definition for Lucifer is actually morning star which i believe is his actual surname in the comics anyway. By enacting his name in the context of that statement he is merely creating suns, not flowing his essence through his creation. He was just creating the definition of his name which is morning star. In the quote was he not making a star out of cloud stuff? Hmmmmm. Again i ask what evidence do you have that Lucys essence permeates the multiverse he JOINTLY created with Michael.




""""""And there you go again as well. Making wild assumptions without knowing what your talking about. Im afraid thats not the case in every Multiverse in the Omniverse. Some Multiverse are made in a different way than other Multiverse. The Preacher-verse for example, was made by just raw divine energy by the God there. That God didnt need to shape anything by his will. He first made matter(by raw energy ofcourse) and made that matter into suns, stars, etc. by dishing out his energy on it which instantly created everything.

Sorry, but its not a fact that Phoenix has done the same way Lucifer did.""""""""



Im sorry but what does this have to do with anything? Its changed nothing so it was a waste of your effort and time. How unfortunate.


At the end of the day Lucifers greatest feat is creating a multiverse out of matter supplied to him by Michael. So it was a JOINT effort. You with me so far Synchy?

Phoenix made creation singlehandedly and is one with it all as well. Phoenix isso obviously beyond them individually. Its so apparent to anyone of a neutral mindset.

Also creating people and reducing them to nothing is a minor feat. If you knew anything about marvel you'd know that celestials created the eternals for goodness sake and they pale in comparison to phoenix.

I know its hard being a fan of something only to find out theyre not as great as initially thought, but im sure you'll get over it. Good luck with that mate.

Please for god sake MULTIQUOTE!!

Just cut and paste, its hard to read these great arguments.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm My understanding is blurry? Silly boy. "All that is I am" Means that all of creation is a part of her. That much is obvious to all but a dunce. Creation is everything that is overseen from the white hot room. That is the multiverse, time/space, reality, matter energy etc. That is creation. Phoenix is the primal force of creation which has been accredited in Uncanny Xmen, Classic Xmen F4 and various other X-titles as the force responsible for creation. This has been the case from its conception till the prsent. Read Marvel and educate yourself.

Couldnt hav said it better myself.

Thats ridiculous Synch. How the mighty have fallen. You've resorted to nitpicking in order to win an argument even though you know exactly what im saying because its quite obvious to those of a neutral mindset. The abstracts embody those concepts. The abstracts are those concepts made corporeal. Phoenix created those abstracts and Phoenix is one with those abstracts. Having abstracts is a marvel thing, just deal with it Synch. Really. Its like saying Galactus cant do the things SS does.

*ding dong* I smell a contradiction coming out of the arse. Sorry GS, its not good enough. Your just repeating yourself over and over and over again. None of the things in your post have actually provided proof that Phoenix being one with everything means that she also created it. You wanna have another example my good friend? How about Eternity, he's called the living embodiment of a universe, right? so that means that he's one with all that is in a single universe, right? And if we use your logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then we can say that Eternity being one everything that is in a universe means that he CREATED that universe.

But the problem is, the great GS has said that Phoenix created everything in existence, not Eternity. But if we use his other logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then that means Eternity WAS the one who create a universe, not Phoenix.

Oh! the contradiction

Originally posted by GalacticStorm You really cant be serious? Someone please come on here and make apparent to this boy how ridiculous his statement is. Being called the one who builds and breaks does not make you the primal force of creation. Not once is Michael called the primal of creation. There are many beings in marvel who build and break. The celestials for example are creators. If they deem there creations unworthy then they destroy them. That term could be applied to them does that make them the primal force of creation? Dont be silly. Oh how desperate youve become.

For goodness sake you could apply that term to Franklin Richards with his Lego set, but does that make him the primal force of creation. Laughable simply laughable. Oh how you've made me chuckle.

In denial. That is made apparent by your post here GS. Your understanding of things are really blurry, it is GS. Sandalphon EXPLICITLY stated that Michael is the one who builds and breaks. Meaning he is the one who builds and breaks EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE-----> the WHOLE Multiverse. What now? your actually saying that the term "Primal Force of Creation" suddenly has a different meaning?

What a pitiful attempt to bring in Franklin Richards and the Celestials. They created things, sure. But is it everything? No. So how the hell does that label them Primal Force of Creation?

And seriously just because Michael wasnt called "Primal Force of Creation" means that he really is not? What are you narrow minded or something?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Exactly my point. Neither Lucifer or Michael are one with the multiverse proper in DC the prsence is. In Marvel its phoenix who is also funnily enough suggested to be an aspect of TOAA. Im sorry Synchy but you have yet to tell me where in that quote it says anything about Lucifer being one with his multiverse, where does it say his consciousness permeates it and all of creation flows through him? Exactly it doesnt. He's just not on that level and you have yet to prove that he is because you cannot.

Lol!!!! you make it seem like Phoenix actually forced TOAA to make her one with everything. Seriously GS, the only reason why Michael and Lucifer wasnt made one with everything in DC is because The Presence decided to not make them. Simple as. I have full confidence that if TOAA wanted to be one with everything, then he'd remove Phoenix's function and make himself one with everything. Again simple as.

It just comes down to their respective God's decisions GS. The Presence decided to not make the brothers one with eveything and TOAA decided to make Phoenix one with everything, thats it. Both can overturn that decision on a whim. It doesnt degrade Lucifer and Michael's power as Lucifer has shown that he's one with everything in his multiverse.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm Prsence saying that there should only be one multiverse does not mean that Lucifers is as important or on the same scale as the proper one.

I wonder why you didnt explain why?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Oh dear Synch you typed all of that and it still proved not a thing. The U.S could invite every man, woman or child to leav etheir countries to live their but does that mean the U.S is as grand or important as the rest of the planets continents. No sirree. Good try tho. Lets say i was going to entertain your idea as flawed as the concepts behind it are, Lucifer is still not one with his multiverse his essence doesnt permeate it. He has mere external power over it unlike Phoenix with marvels multiverse. Its like comparing the control of the Infinity Gauntlet to the control and power offered by the HOTU. Admirable attempt.

The US not a proper country? oh why oh why GS. I certainly wouldnt miss you explain it coz frankly the US is a proper country. Thats a given, they are one of the most powerful countries, if not the most powerful, in the world, the most technoloy driven and one of the most wealthiest countries, if not the wealthiest, in the world.

And yet you sit there and say theyre not a proper country, theyre not a grand country. uh huh.

Sorry but its a fact that Lucifer's Multiverse is as grand as any Multiverse, he created planets, stars, suns, life in every realm and in every universe. Lucifer's confident enough to accomodate every living being in a proper Multiverse into his own Multiverse. You couldnt get any more proper and grand than that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Oh i forgot. Was i meant to be impressed by the infinity gates feat as well? Pssh. How do you think all the universese and realities in Marvel are connected together? Yep you got it sonny!!!

Aww, thats it? Is that the only thing Phoenix can do? Pitiful.

Linking 2 Multiverses by creating gates in EVERY Universe and reality in BOTH Multiverses>>>>>Linking Universes and realities in 1 Multiverse by creating gates in that single Multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Listen up synchy my boy. You could learn a lot from me. Did you know that another definition for Lucifer is actually morning star which i believe is his actual surname in the comics anyway. By enacting his name in the context of that statement he is merely creating suns, not flowing his essence through his creation. He was just creating the definition of his name which is morning star. In the quote was he not making a star out of cloud stuff? Hmmmmm. Again i ask what evidence do you have that Lucys essence permeates the multiverse he JOINTLY created with Michael.

The name Morningstar has nothing to do with him creating just stars, It has everything to do with everything in existence. Seriously what you said doesnt make sense at all. What is the purpose of enacting his name if it wont flow through something? What is the purpose of enacting his name if its just to create suns and stars? Because when Michael wrote The Presence's name in every atom of existence to keep the DC Multi from collapsing, it was said as "Enacting Yahweh's name, which in turn flowed through every vein, every atom of existence.

And just think about this for a minute. What good is a Multiverse/Universe if no ones holding it together, if there's no essence coursing through it to keep it alive? It will surely collapse, GS. It will collapse. So by basing through that COMMON knowledge, then Lucifer should have his essence running though it, making him one with it to keep his Multiverse from collapsing.

I mean look at the time when he created the gates. We can clearly see that while creating it, his form wasnt of human form anymore. His form was now made of blocks of bubble-like thingy. And we can clearly see that the bubbles where separating from him while creating his gates. The only thing it says, as far as Im concerned, is the bubbles are his essence which was placed on the gates to also become one with it.

Another evidence is him saying that he's "The Alpha and The Omega". What does that tell you? And no it doesnt just mean that he's the beginning and the end. Look up the meaning of it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im sorry but what does this have to do with anything? Its changed nothing so it was a waste of your effort and time. How unfortunate.

Oh please GS, stop lying to yourself. You and I completely know that its relevant to what were talking about. You said that Phoenix shapes matter with her will. To which I replied that not every Multiverse/Universe is created that way. I gave the example of the creation of the Preacher-verse. To which I ended it by saying that it isnt a fact that Phoenix can do what Lucifer did(shaping everything with pure will) due to the example I gave above.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm At the end of the day Lucifers greatest feat is creating a multiverse out of matter supplied to him by Michael. So it was a JOINT effort. You with me so far Synchy?

Phoenix made creation singlehandedly and is one with it all as well. Phoenix isso obviously beyond them individually. Its so apparent to anyone of a neutral mindset.

No, no, no my good friend. At the end of the day Lucifer's and Michael's greatest feat cancels out Phoenix's greatest feat which was creating all LIFE by herself. Michael and Lucifer creates entire concepts such as Time, Love, Happiness, etc. all by themselves

So we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, Oh I dont know, Holding all of reality? A feat Phoenix achieved AND A feat Michael(by writing Yahweh's name in every atom of existence in DC with his demiurgic energy) and Lucifer achieved(by the fact that his Multiverse isnt showing signs of collapsing right now)

So again, we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, I dont know again, maybe placing gates in all of the universes and realities in the Multiverse? And this is where we stop. Because Lucifer has shown the greater feat. Ive already explained it above.

So all in all, GS. Lucifer and Michael edges Phoenix out individually, sorry matey.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Also creating people and reducing them to nothing is a minor feat. If you knew anything about marvel you'd know that celestials created the eternals for goodness sake and they pale in comparison to phoenix.

I know its hard being a fan of something only to find out theyre not as great as initially thought, but im sure you'll get over it. Good luck with that mate.

Still GS, the fact that Lucifer reduced them into nothingness MORE than proves my point of him having control down to the sub-atomic level. And you said that Phoenix has control down only to the Molecular-level so going by that, Phoenix wont be able to do it on a level that Lucifer has done.

And trust me GS, I still have complete faith over Lucifer and Michael being as great as I think they are. Youve done nothing to disprove it Im afraid. Maybe your the one who should start thinking about how really great Phoenix is.

""""""""""""""""*ding dong* I smell a contradiction coming out of the arse. Sorry GS, its not good enough. Your just repeating yourself over and over and over again. None of the things in your post have actually provided proof that Phoenix being one with everything means that she also created it. You wanna have another example my good friend? How about Eternity, he's called the living embodiment of a universe, right? so that means that he's one with all that is in a single universe, right? And if we use your logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then we can say that Eternity being one everything that is in a universe means that he CREATED that universe.

But the problem is, the great GS has said that Phoenix created everything in existence, not Eternity. But if we use his other logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then that means Eternity WAS the one who create a universe, not Phoenix.

Oh! the contradiction """"""""""""""





It seems dear Synchy that my posts are a bit over your head, because ive dealt with your query about phoenix actually creating existence not only on previous posts in previous threads but also on this thread to. I understand your ignorance you have been overloaded with information after all, which is always a good thing wouldnt you agree? I so wish i could sat the same about your posts. oh well.

Synchy Synchy there is no contradiction. Its all imagined. Youre very confused, so pay attention and let the GalacticStorm teach the masses:

Synchro lets sort this out once and for all. Youre not debating that Phoenix is one with all of creation are you? No? Good boy. Well I've already told you that in uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix is called the primal force of creation, i've already shown you a quote from Classic Xmen where Phoenix says that everything in creation hasnt not been "touched" by her, recent issues of F4 again accredit Phoenix for the making of creation and all the abstracts( the amount of times ive said this already Synchy tut. tut.) even in Xmen The End Jean says that Phoenix is the perfect tool for jumstarting creation because through her it has a human persective, even in Xmen Forever (which is surprising because it was during the retcon period) Eternity calls Phoenix the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death, the force that in the natural schemem of things destroys everything and then creates it again. In the same series when the Stranger wished to get to the top of the cosmic hierarchy he desired the help of Jean Grey to use Phoenix to end creation early, help him survive the end of all that is (as Phoenix did for Galen who would go on to become Galactus) and after Phoenix made everything again emerge on top as the supreme being. You cool now? I have many more examples please PM me if your inner fanboy is still refusing to let you acknowledge that which is quite apparent to others





""""""""""In denial. That is made apparent by your post here GS. Your understanding of things are really blurry, it is GS. Sandalphon EXPLICITLY stated that Michael is the one who builds and breaks. Meaning he is the one who builds and breaks EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE-----> the WHOLE Multiverse. What now? your actually saying that the term "Primal Force of Creation" suddenly has a different meaning?""""""""""""


You know you're wrong here, but your desire to win this argument (which youre losing very badly in btw) is clouding your better judgement. Others have commented on this fact as well. I'll tell them to post and let you know just how apparent your folly is. Being called 'one who builds and breaks' doesnt make you THE primal force of creation. It really doesnt. I know you can understand that. Phoenix is actually called THE primal force of creation, your example just isnt good enough. I really dont respect your hypocrisy Synchy boy. So i cant say Phoenix the primal force of creation is an aspect of TOAA although explicitly suggested through heavy symbology, parallels, name and deed yet you can say that Michael is the primal force of creation merely because he is called "the one that builds and breaks"? Ridiculous Synchy, simply ridiculous.




""""""""""What a pitiful attempt to bring in Franklin Richards and the Celestials. They created things, sure. But is it everything? No. So how the hell does that label them Primal Force of Creation?"""""""""""""""



Did Michael? No thats right it was a joint effort between him and Lucifer so how can he be called the primal force of creation all unto himself? The ridiculous claims of fanboys.







""""""""""""""""Lol!!!! you make it seem like Phoenix actually forced TOAA to make her one with everything. Seriously GS, the only reason why Michael and Lucifer wasnt made one with everything in DC is because The Presence decided to not make them. Simple as. I have full confidence that if TOAA wanted to be one with everything, then he'd remove Phoenix's function and make himself one with everything. Again simple as.

It just comes down to their respective God's decisions GS. The Presence decided to not make the brothers one with eveything and TOAA decided to make Phoenix one with everything, thats it. Both can overturn that decision on a whim. It doesnt degrade Lucifer and Michael's power as Lucifer has shown that he's one with everything in his multiverse.""""""""""""""""""""""""




I cant see how you came to see it that way Synchy, youre limited understanding has lead to a misinterpretation therefore rendering your laughter empty and unwarranted. Moving on............


The Phoenix is the primal force of creation and is one with everything and created everything because that is the job TOAA gave it. Youre right. So whats your point? Im not arguing about Phoenix Vs TOAA so what on earth are you waffling about? Youre also right that if the Presence wanted to make Lucifer and/or Michael the primal force of creation and one with it all he could as well. Youre absolutely right there Synchy im proud of you. The simple matter is that Prsence did NOT empower them so. He did NOT make them on the same level as Phoenix. Yes he could empower them more but then so what the same could be said for TOAA. Then it would just be a case of TOAA Vs Prsence which is ridiculous because they are the same being in their respective comic book companies. What a silly point you were trying to make there. Got you nowhere really, what a shame.







"""""""""""""""""""""""""""quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Prsence saying that there should only be one multiverse does not mean that Lucifers is as important or on the same scale as the proper one.


I wonder why you didnt explain why?"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""




Would you care to explain how it does?






""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The US not a proper country? oh why oh why GS. I certainly wouldnt miss you explain it coz frankly the US is a proper country. Thats a given, they are one of the most powerful countries, if not the most powerful, in the world, the most technoloy driven and one of the most wealthiest countries, if not the wealthiest, in the world.

And yet you sit there and say theyre not a proper country, theyre not a grand country. uh huh. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


Just how old are you? Your understanding is at times abominable. I had never noticed prior to this tutoring session im currently providing for you. Where oh where in any of that paragraph from my previous post did i state that the U.S was not a proper country? I did NOT. I stated that the U.S could invite the worlds population to reside on its shores but that doesnt mean that the U.S on its own is as grand as the rest of the planets continents combined. So how do you get from that statement that the U.S isnt a proper country? You cant. Stop looking for any old excuse to write a paragraph just so it looks to readers like you know what the hell youre talking about. A lot of these paragraphs have been unnecessary and have changed NOTHING. Filler material.








"""""""""""""""""""""""""""The name Morningstar has nothing to do with him creating just stars, It has everything to do with everything in existence. Seriously what you said doesnt make sense at all. What is the purpose of enacting his name if it wont flow through something? What is the purpose of enacting his name if its just to create suns and stars? Because when Michael wrote The Presence's name in every atom of existence to keep the DC Multi from collapsing, it was said as "Enacting Yahweh's name, which in turn flowed through every vein, every atom of existence.

And just think about this for a minute. What good is a Multiverse/Universe if no ones holding it together, if there's no essence coursing through it to keep it alive? It will surely collapse, GS. It will collapse. So by basing through that COMMON knowledge, then Lucifer should have his essence running though it, making him one with it to keep his Multiverse from collapsing.

I mean look at the time when he created the gates. We can clearly see that while creating it, his form wasnt of human form anymore. His form was now made of blocks of bubble-like thingy. And we can clearly see that the bubbles where separating from him while creating his gates. The only thing it says, as far as Im concerned, is the bubbles are his essence which was placed on the gates to also become one with it.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""



Must i continue to teach you Synchy? I believe im gonna have to start charging for these sessions. My private time doesnt come for free sonny. Here is the original quote you gave me:

""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""



Here we go sonny down to business. There are many definitions for the name Lucifer. One of them happens to be "morning star" This is also his surname in his DC comics so you know that DC has acknowledged that definition. Another definition of Lucifer is "light bearer" or "light bringer." This term comes from when Jesus refers to Satan falling like lightning from heaven after being cast out by God. Your quote contains both of these terms so you know that the writer of that particular issue was acknowledging them. In it the "Lighbringer" is enacting (acting out) his name. Lucifers name also means morning star. In the quote Lucifer is creating stars. NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!







""""""""""""""""""""Another evidence is him saying that he's "The Alpha and The Omega". What does that tell you? And no it doesnt just mean that he's the beginning and the end. Look up the meaning of it.""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


That refers to how he is the origin of his multiverse and he is also its fulfillment its end in the natural scheme of things. Whats your point? So is Phoenix, but Phoenix just happens to be the alpha and omega (as stated in Xmen Forever and New Xmen) of the multiverse proper and Phoenix's essence also courses through the multiverse proper. TOAA actually trusted Phoenix to be so integral with the proper multiverse of Marvel. Lucifer made his side multiverse which you have yet to prove compares in scale and significance to Dc's proper one and also that Lucifers essence permeates it. Lets just say you manage to come up with proof that it does, well Phoenixes does through the actual proper multiverse, TOAA's multiverse which goes to show Phoenixes standing in the hierarchy.





No doubt the inner fanboy within you isnt going to let this be the last i hear from you on this matter, but hey whatever i understand. It must hurt to realise your character just aint what he's cracked up. Good day to you.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Oh please GS, stop lying to yourself. You and I completely know that its relevant to what were talking about. You said that Phoenix shapes matter with her will. To which I replied that not every Multiverse/Universe is created that way. I gave the example of the creation of the Preacher-verse. To which I ended it by saying that it isnt a fact that Phoenix can do what Lucifer did(shaping everything with pure will) due to the example I gave above.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Still Syncy what does that have to do with anything? How does that change anything. No you cant say that Phoenix formed creation the same way that Lucifer and Michael jointly formed theirs but whats your point? The same is true in reverse. Again i say a wasted effort. Dont you hate it when that happens?




"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
No, no, no my good friend. At the end of the day Lucifer's and Michael's greatest feat cancels out Phoenix's greatest feat which was creating all LIFE by herself. Michael and Lucifer creates entire concepts such as Time, Love, Happiness, etc. all by themselves

So we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, Oh I dont know, Holding all of reality? A feat Phoenix achieved AND A feat Michael(by writing Yahweh's name in every atom of existence in DC with his demiurgic energy) and Lucifer achieved(by the fact that his Multiverse isnt showing signs of collapsing right now)

So again, we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, I dont know again, maybe placing gates in all of the universes and realities in the Multiverse? And this is where we stop. Because Lucifer has shown the greater feat. Ive already explained it above.

So all in all, GS. Lucifer and Michael edges Phoenix out individually, sorry matey.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


Why are you refusing to acknowledge the obvious Synchy. Ive already dealt with this point in previous posts. Refusing to do so just to win an argument really does little to help your rep or credibility sonny. Take it from one with greater experience as appears to be the case.

In marvel all concepts such as love, hate, even time, space , reality and so on all are embodied by abstracts, they are those concepts. That is the way Marvel does things. Without those abstracts in a universe those concepts dont exist. Just like Beyonder in Secret Wars killed the abstract Death there was no death in the multiverse. Thanos got rid of Eternity in the IG saga and he himself had to become the embodiment of the universe to prevent there being a void. Let me drill this into your skull, those abstracts are those concepts. From the nothingness that is outside the white hot room Phoenix makes creation, the multiverse, all the universe, realities etc. Phoenix for each universe creates the abstracts, she creates those concepts along with creation ending the previous nothingness. Which Phoenix creates in the natural scheme of things anyway as it is the alpha and the omega. It is the primal force of creation that creates everything, maintains everything and eventually brings about the end of all that is, before repeating the cycle.

MULTIQUOTE!! DAMN YOU!!

Blah Blah Blah Jean Blah Blah fish

lol

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Blah Blah Blah Jean Blah Blah fish


Ahh didnt quite have the same impact as Lord S. The timing and delivery just wasnt there. I guess with age you've just lost that cool factor. It was a good try though

Blah blah blah

lol

Originally posted by whirlysplat
Blah blah blah

LOL U b*****d

lol

Is GS getting owned on this thread? Man, and I missed all the fun!

Originally posted by demigawd
Is GS getting owned on this thread? Man, and I missed all the fun!


Me? Getting owned? That'll be the day. Just whirly and his drunken antics

The problem with Marvel gods is the fact that the hierarchy isn't consistent. It varies from writer to writer. I remember during the Infinity Saga, it was said the Infinity Gauntlet used to be a being who was "all that is", but grew bored and created the abstracts. This being later destroyed the abstracts because among them were people like Mephisto, who was evil. It then committed suicide, which created "everything", including the previously destroyed beings.

In Avengers, Thor, IW and Guardians of the Galaxy, nothing is beyond the Living Tribunal (who is the same in all realities and universes) except TOAA. Phoenix has alternately gone unmentioned or shown as being something of a cosmic garbage man.

In the Fantastic Four, there's a concept of Heaven, presided over by Stan Lee and a far more biblical order than suggested anywhere else.

In the X-men, Phoenix seems to be the source of everything.

In Swamp Thing, the hierarchy is TOTALLY different. Ditto with Ghost Rider.

I give the nod to the DC Brothers because at least they're consistent, lol. And they have better on panel feats.

Originally posted by demigawd
The problem with Marvel gods is the fact that the hierarchy isn't consistent. It varies from writer to writer. I remember during the Infinity Saga, it was said the Infinity Gauntlet used to be a being who was "all that is", but grew bored and created the abstracts. This being later destroyed the abstracts because among them were people like Mephisto, who was evil. It then committed suicide, which created "everything", including the previously destroyed beings.

In Avengers, Thor, IW and Guardians of the Galaxy, nothing is beyond the Living Tribunal (who is the same in all realities and universes) except TOAA. Phoenix has alternately gone unmentioned or shown as being something of a cosmic garbage man.

In the Fantastic Four, there's a concept of Heaven, presided over by Stan Lee and a far more biblical order than suggested anywhere else.

In the X-men, Phoenix seems to be the source of everything.

In Swamp Thing, the hierarchy is TOTALLY different. Ditto with Ghost Rider.

I give the nod to the DC Brothers because at least they're consistent, lol. And they have better on panel feats.

Agreed. You make everything sound so simple, demi...

It's what I do best.

Agreed. The brothers have better on panel feats than phoenix however from whats stated in the comics and by going what is actually shown on panel phoenix is a power to be reckoned with and is certainly placed above them individually. My answer to this topic is no phoenix and the other two could not stand up to both the Dc and Marvel universe and all its characters because there are simply too many powerful beings in both. However one on one Phoenix is certainly capable of defeating anyone from either comic book world short of their respective supreme beings.

Thanx for that Demi i needed a neutral opinion on this matter.

I live to serve.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It seems dear Synchy that my posts are a bit over your head, because ive dealt with your query about phoenix actually creating existence not only on previous posts in previous threads but also on this thread to. I understand your ignorance you have been overloaded with information after all, which is always a good thing wouldnt you agree? I so wish i could sat the same about your posts. oh well.

Synchy Synchy there is no contradiction. Its all imagined. Youre very confused, so pay attention and let the GalacticStorm teach the masses:

Synchro lets sort this out once and for all. Youre not debating that Phoenix is one with all of creation are you? No? Good boy. Well I've already told you that in uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix is called the primal force of creation, i've already shown you a quote from Classic Xmen where Phoenix says that everything in creation hasnt not been "touched" by her, recent issues of F4 again accredit Phoenix for the making of creation and all the abstracts( the amount of times ive said this already Synchy tut. tut.) even in Xmen The End Jean says that Phoenix is the perfect tool for jumstarting creation because through her it has a human persective, even in Xmen Forever (which is surprising because it was during the retcon period) Eternity calls Phoenix the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death, the force that in the natural schemem of things destroys everything and then creates it again. In the same series when the Stranger wished to get to the top of the cosmic hierarchy he desired the help of Jean Grey to use Phoenix to end creation early, help him survive the end of all that is (as Phoenix did for Galen who would go on to become Galactus) and after Phoenix made everything again emerge on top as the supreme being. You cool now? I have many more examples please PM me if your inner fanboy is still refusing to let you acknowledge that which is quite apparent to others

As I said and will say over again, your repeating the same damn thing over and over and over and over again. The issues youve provided just talks about Phoenix being "the Primal Force of Creation"---> a term whose meaning is debatable due to the discussions were having over it. Those issues does not prove that she created everything

Lets break down one by one all the issues youve given me shall we GS?

In Uncanny X-Men #137 - It is said that Phoenix is the Primal Force of Creation. Well, again the meaning of the term "Primal Force of Creation" is debatable. Look at the Michael example I gave earlier in our debate

In Classic X-Men - Again, all that is "touched" by her or "All that is... I Am" is different than "All is created by me". What Jean said, just shows that she is one with everything. There's no reason to suggest that what she said means that she created everything. Eternity is "All that is... I Am" in a single universe, and by YOUR definition, it means that he's the one who created the universe, not Phoenix? Again a contradiction in your part.

In F4 - This issue proves nothing. I never disagreed with Phoenix creating the Abstracts. And apparently, thats the only thing that was said in that F4 issues. They never said anything about Phoenix creating everything.

In Xmen The End - Another issue that proved nothing. It only said that Phoenix jumpstarted creation. And you should know that the term "jumpstart" doesnt mean that it created everything.

Jumpstart - "The act or an instance of STARTING or SETTING IN MOTION something."

So what that issue suggests is that Pheonix started the creation of the Multi, not created the whole Multi. That issue only further proves that Im right and your wrong. Sorry GS

In X-Men Forever - Exactly. The issue where I referred to. Eternity said that Phoenix is the assurance of Life after Death. Again, the keyword here is "LIFE after death", not "life and CONCEPTS after death".

In the same issue(with the Stranger) - Another issue that proved nothing. Stranger wanted to have Pheonix destroy everything. cool. And wanted Phoenix to remake "everything. "everything" could be intepreted as just creating all life and my theory(earlier) of helping the abstracts(directly or indirectly) create the concepts.

So what did I tell you earlier? it DOESNT prove anything. Heck you didnt even gave me the EXACT issues of most of this so called "proof". Does that mean that you dont have the issues with you right now? If thats the case, then all the more reason for me to not believe you.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm You know you're wrong here, but your desire to win this argument (which youre losing very badly in btw) is clouding your better judgement. Others have commented on this fact as well. I'll tell them to post and let you know just how apparent your folly is. Being called 'one who builds and breaks' doesnt make you THE primal force of creation. It really doesnt. I know you can understand that. Phoenix is actually called THE primal force of creation, your example just isnt good enough. I really dont respect your hypocrisy Synchy boy. So i cant say Phoenix the primal force of creation is an aspect of TOAA although explicitly suggested through heavy symbology, parallels, name and deed yet you can say that Michael is the primal force of creation merely because he is called "the one that builds and breaks"? Ridiculous Synchy, simply ridiculous.

No, I know Im right here. By your own accord, Primal Force of Creation means the one who created everything and is one with everything. Thats what your going by. So I made the example of Sandalphon saying that Michael is the one who builds and breaks, because by basing on that it means that Michael alone created everything. And by giving the example of Lucifer being one with everything in his multiverse, it also meant that Michael has the power to be one with everything had it not been for the Presence.

If you link the 2 examples, then that would mean that Michael is THE Primal Force of Creation, unless you have a new definition of it, which you never bothered to explain.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Did Michael? No thats right it was a joint effort between him and Lucifer so how can he be called the primal force of creation all unto himself? The ridiculous claims of fanboys.

Yes Michael, in truth, didnt create all of reality all by himself. But because of your overbearing fanboyishness with Phoenix, you completely missed the point(which isnt a surprised btw). My point is, its not a fact that the term "Primal Force of Creation" means that "it creates everything". Thats why I brought Sandalphon's comments. According to him Michael is the one who builds and breaks, only him(which would mean that Michael is THE Primal Force of Creation in DC). But in reality he's not the one true creator of the Multiverse because he needs Lucifer, right? So going by that, How can you say that the meaning of Primal Force of Creation is creating everything, when the example I gave above proves otherwise. Marvel only states that Jean is Primal Force of Creation this, Primal Force of Creation that. They never stated that it means creating everything.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm I cant see how you came to see it that way Synchy, youre limited understanding has lead to a misinterpretation therefore rendering your laughter empty and unwarranted. Moving on............


The Phoenix is the primal force of creation and is one with everything and created everything because that is the job TOAA gave it. Youre right. So whats your point? Im not arguing about Phoenix Vs TOAA so what on earth are you waffling about? Youre also right that if the Presence wanted to make Lucifer and/or Michael the primal force of creation and one with it all he could as well. Youre absolutely right there Synchy im proud of you. The simple matter is that Prsence did NOT empower them so. He did NOT make them on the same level as Phoenix. Yes he could empower them more but then so what the same could be said for TOAA. Then it would just be a case of TOAA Vs Prsence which is ridiculous because they are the same being in their respective comic book companies. What a silly point you were trying to make there. Got you nowhere really, what a shame.

Again, it proves that you understanding of thing is messy. The Presence doesnt need to empower Michael or Lucifer to be one with anything. Theyre TRULY capable of doing it on theyre own. Again, Lucifer being one with his Multiverse is proof enough.

The only reason why The Presence is one with everything in DC and not Michael, not because Michael doesnt have the power to be one with eveything, but because The Presence overrules it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Would you care to explain how it does?

The Presence sees it as proper and as a big enough of a threat because of the number of people from his Multiverse that can potentially go to Lucifer's Multiverse and ACCOMODATE them comfortably. Ive already told you that Lucifer invited ALL of the beings in the DC Multverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Just how old are you? Your understanding is at times abominable. I had never noticed prior to this tutoring session im currently providing for you. Where oh where in any of that paragraph from my previous post did i state that the U.S was not a proper country? I did NOT. I stated that the U.S could invite the worlds population to reside on its shores but that doesnt mean that the U.S on its own is as grand as the rest of the planets continents combined. So how do you get from that statement that the U.S isnt a proper country? You cant. Stop looking for any old excuse to write a paragraph just so it looks to readers like you know what the hell youre talking about. A lot of these paragraphs have been unnecessary and have changed NOTHING. Filler material.

What the hell? If the US INVITED every people in the world, then yes they are as grand and important than every other country because theyre CONFIDENT enough to accomodate all them. I mean they should be confident enough to actually INVITE them.

Which exactly is the case for Lucifer. He invited ALL of the beings from a PROPER Multiverse into his own Multiverse if they dont like Presence's rule. That alone means that Lucifer's Multiverse can accomodate every living being that came from a PROPER Multiverse. You couldnt get any more grander or important than that. Why cant you see that?

Seriously GS. All this latest posts of yours tells me that you know Im right but you still try to stall time so that you can figure out a way to "turn the tides" in your favor. Give it up GS.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm Must i continue to teach you Synchy? I believe im gonna have to start charging for these sessions. My private time doesnt come for free sonny. Here is the original quote you gave me: Originally posted by GalacticStorm
""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""



Here we go sonny down to business. There are many definitions for the name Lucifer. One of them happens to be "morning star" This is also his surname in his DC comics so you know that DC has acknowledged that definition. Another definition of Lucifer is "light bearer" or "light bringer." This term comes from when Jesus refers to Satan falling like lightning from heaven after being cast out by God. Your quote contains both of these terms so you know that the writer of that particular issue was acknowledging them. In it the "Lighbringer" is enacting (acting out) his name. Lucifers name also means morning star. In the quote Lucifer is creating stars. NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the most horrible explanation Ive ever heard in my whole life. "Morning star" means Lucifer is creating stars? HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, NO. "Morning Star" doesnt mean Lucifer is creating stars(lol!) Morningstar doesnt have a meaning. NOTHING. He just adopted that name when he fell from Heaven. He' s original name is Archangel Samael "The Lighbringer". Again, there's no Morningstar at that time.

When Lucifer's Multiverse was created he did enact his whole name(Lucifer Morningstar, "The Lightbringer". But Morningstar doesnt mean anything. Remember that GS. *sigh*, Im dissapointed GS I thought Ive already taught you a good amount about Lucifer and Michael? But it seems thats not the case. Your not learning well, my student.

Oh, and the fact that you didnt say anything about my other points, shows that you just cant counter it. Im right and your wrong.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm That refers to how he is the origin of his multiverse and he is also its fulfillment its end in the natural scheme of things. Whats your point? So is Phoenix, but Phoenix just happens to be the alpha and omega (as stated in Xmen Forever and New Xmen) of the multiverse proper and Phoenix's essence also courses through the multiverse proper. TOAA actually trusted Phoenix to be so integral with the proper multiverse of Marvel. Lucifer made his side multiverse which you have yet to prove compares in scale and significance to Dc's proper one and also that Lucifers essence permeates it. Lets just say you manage to come up with proof that it does, well Phoenixes does through the actual proper multiverse, TOAA's multiverse which goes to show Phoenixes standing in the hierarchy.





No doubt the inner fanboy within you isnt going to let this be the last i hear from you on this matter, but hey whatever i understand. It must hurt to realise your character just aint what he's cracked up. Good day to you.

*sigh* dissapointing. Ok here's the defini....... You know what Ill just quote someone who is omnipotent in our real world about the meaning of "The Alpha and The Omega"

Refer in the Bible, Revelation 1:4-8 :

Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

So shall it be! Amen.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "WHO IS, and WHO WAS, and WHO IS TO COME, the Almighty."

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Still Syncy what does that have to do with anything? How does that change anything. No you cant say that Phoenix formed creation the same way that Lucifer and Michael jointly formed theirs but whats your point? The same is true in reverse. Again i say a wasted effort. Dont you hate it when that happens?

I responded because of this:



You say that as if its a FACT that Phoenix shaped it by pure will. I just merely responded thats its NOT a fact.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Why are you refusing to acknowledge the obvious Synchy. Ive already dealt with this point in previous posts. Refusing to do so just to win an argument really does little to help your rep or credibility sonny. Take it from one with greater experience as appears to be the case.

In marvel all concepts such as love, hate, even time, space , reality and so on all are embodied by abstracts, they are those concepts. That is the way Marvel does things. Without those abstracts in a universe those concepts dont exist. Just like Beyonder in Secret Wars killed the abstract Death there was no death in the multiverse. Thanos got rid of Eternity in the IG saga and he himself had to become the embodiment of the universe to prevent there being a void. Let me drill this into your skull, those abstracts are those concepts. From the nothingness that is outside the white hot room Phoenix makes creation, the multiverse, all the universe, realities etc. Phoenix for each universe creates the abstracts, she creates those concepts along with creation ending the previous nothingness. Which Phoenix creates in the natural scheme of things anyway as it is the alpha and the omega. It is the primal force of creation that creates everything, maintains everything and eventually brings about the end of all that is, before repeating the cycle.

Yeah, right. All thoughout our argument the only reason that you gave as to why Phoenix is above the brothers is that Phoenix created everything including concepts while Lucifer and Michael didnt create everything on their own, thats it.

Youve NEVER provided any more reasons as to why Phoenix is above them. Only that one. Youve never dealt with any of the feats that Ive posted.

As for me, I have yet to even bring up another of Lucifer's greatest weapons. His Mind. And also how versatile Lucifer is because he's magic based and Phoenix isnt. Im just warming up dude, if you didnt know.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm You know you're wrong here, but your desire to win this argument (which youre losing very badly in btw)

Originally posted by demigawd Is GS getting owned on this thread? Man, and I missed all the fun!

they will get there asses handed to them in about 20 minutes.

STOP WITH THE LOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG POST ALREADY DAMN MY BRAINS BEGINING TO HURTbanginblowup

Stop picking on GS!! Thats my job!!

Just for the record, I didn't post, "Is GS getting owned on this thread? Man, and I missed all the fun!" because I thought GS was losing the debate (it's still very much up in the air). I wasn't paying attention to the debate. I was referring to the whole "blah blah jean blah" thing and the other little pot shots that I thought was funny.

""""""""""""""""""""""Lets break down one by one all the issues youve given me shall we GS?

In Uncanny X-Men #137 - It is said that Phoenix is the Primal Force of Creation. Well, again the meaning of the term "Primal Force of Creation" is debatable. Look at the Michael example I gave earlier in our debate
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There is a difference between just being a primal force, a force of creation and THE primal force of creation. Phoenix is called the primal force of creation because it is the the force from which all of creation originates, it means phoenix was there from the beginning and it made creation, it is the original source from which all of creation came from. It is the original force dedicated to creation That is the definition of that line. That line alone tells you not that phoenix is one with evrything , but that is responsible for the creation of everything. Your Michael example just isnt good enough it really isnt. Together both Michael and Lucifer have the power to create a multiverse. Together they can accomplish what marvels primal force of creation has and does. Individually there is no evidence of them doing so in the comics or off panel. They were not responsible for the creation of the main multiverse, the 'preacherverse' they are merely powerful beings who together have the capability to create their own jointly. In marvel phoenix is the force that creates, maintains and destroys the main multiverse of TOAA. The fact that Phoenix is called the primal force of creation second only to TOAA tells you that it is the real deal, this tells you that it is right at the top of the hierarchy where a force with such a role should be. Just like Michael and Lucifer are second to the presence and jointly have the power to create a multiverse, so to does phoenix in marvel, but singlehandedly.





"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In Classic X-Men - Again, all that is "touched" by her or "All that is... I Am" is different than "All is created by me". What Jean said, just shows that she is one with everything. There's no reason to suggest that what she said means that she created everything. Eternity is "All that is... I Am" in a single universe, and by YOUR definition, it means that he's the one who created the universe, not Phoenix? Again a contradiction in your part.
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The issues of classic Xmen you need to read are 8, 42 and 43. You havent quite got it right. Phoenix says that ""all that is I am"" which as you know is referring to her being one with everything. Phoenix also says that """all that is isnt not touched by her"" which can be taken as either again she is one with everything and her influence and power extends over all, or you can take it as there isnt anything in creation that phoenix hasnt had involvement with. You're quite correct Eternity is the embodiment of everything that is in a universe the stars, the matter, energy etc he is an actuality, one single reality. He is the embodiment of that, all of those things made flesh. It does NOT for one second mean that he created all of that, (where did that come from? I havent said that you've just not taken in my points properly, but im about to show you where you went wrong and also what you havent taken into consideration, but more on that later) , but just that he is all of that so it is far from a contradiction on my part but instead both a misinterpretation and misunderstanding on yours.






"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In F4 - This issue proves nothing. I never disagreed with Phoenix creating the Abstracts. And apparently, thats the only thing that was said in that F4 issues. They never said anything about Phoenix creating everything."""""""""""""""""""""""2



If you read my arguments properly then you would see that i said the issues of F4 state that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts in existence, all of creation. What you're forgetting to acknowledge Synchro is that eternity is the embodiment of a universe, he is everything within that universe as previously mentioned, he is also a creation of phoenix. A multiverse is made up of many, many universes, many, many eternities. Abstracts are just marvels way of doing things, accept that Synchro, it says nothing negative about Phoenix at all. If anything its a positive that phoenixes universes arent just lifeless realities but instead sentient beings. Another abstract is Infinity who is eternities sibling. Infinity is the infinite space between eternities matter, his stars, planets and his galaxies. Other abstracts for example are Love, hate, kronos and lord order and master chaos and death. F4 confirms that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of these abstracts and there alternate reality counterparts. Phoenix is indeed responsible for the making of marvels multiverse.




""""""""""""In Xmen The End - Another issue that proved nothing. It only said that Phoenix jumpstarted creation. And you should know that the term "jumpstart" doesnt mean that it created everything.""""""""""""""""""""

It sure does Synch, you just misunderstood what i was trying to show you, i guess i should have spelled it out. I am well aware of the meaning of jumpstart. This was merely a smaller part of the picture i was trying to paint for you, showing just how phoenix far phoenix is involved with creation and that it comes from many, many sources. You already know that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts in existence, those which embody the physical matter of a reality, the infinite space in between, concepts such as love and hate, death and time etc My quote was merely to show you that phoenix initiates the first spark and as you now know, goes on to fully create the rest of existence, everything outside the white hot room.




""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In X-Men Forever - Exactly. The issue where I referred to. Eternity said that Phoenix is the assurance of Life after Death. Again, the keyword here is "LIFE after death", not "life and CONCEPTS after death".
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What are you going on about? The abstracts are sentient beings they are a form of life(life also refers to that which are perecived have its own distinct existence, not just fauna and flora Synchy lol), it is marvels way. This is just another part of the picture i was painting for you. Not intended to prove everything all by its lonesome. Think outside of the box sonny. What Eternity was talking about is that after the end of all that is, which phoenix brings about, resulting in nothingness, phoenix remakes creation, it remakes the universes( the eternitites who just happens to be an abstract Synchy) and everything else. Phoenix is the assurance of that.





""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In the same issue(with the Stranger) - Another issue that proved nothing. Stranger wanted to have Pheonix destroy everything. cool. And wanted Phoenix to remake "everything. "everything" could be intepreted as just creating all life and my theory(earlier) of helping the abstracts(directly or indirectly) create the concepts. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


I dont quite know if youre purposely being stubborn or youre really not comprehending both what im saying and/or the way of marvel. The abstracts do NOT create those concepts for goodness sake, they ARE those concepts. They are the living embodiment of those concepts. If those abstracts are killed then that which they embody is absent from that reality. Hence my earlier example of when the Beyonder killed Death and then nothing could die. Or when Thanos got rid of Eternity and he had to become the embodiment of the universe to fill the void. It is already established that phoenix created those abstracts and so brings about these concepts with their creation. Your theory is very wrong its an established marvel thing whatever you say or think will not change that. Please PM someone to ask if need be just stop this folly Synchy.






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No, I know Im right here. By your own accord, Primal Force of Creation means the one who created everything and is one with everything. Thats what your going by. So I made the example of Sandalphon saying that Michael is the one who builds and breaks, because by basing on that it means that Michael alone created everything. And by giving the example of Lucifer being one with everything in his multiverse, it also meant that Michael has the power to be one with everything had it not been for the Presence.
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Michael and Lucifer arent responsible for the creation of the proper multiverse are they? But merely Lucifers side one which was a test by the Presence. Therefore neither of them are the primal force of creation. Jointly they can create a multiverse like the phoenix can, however they are not responsible for the creation of everything beyond the white hot room, or heaven in Dc terms. They are not the origin, the source from which all life in the proper multiverse came from. It seems in DC that the persence hasnt assigned this role to any outside force he does it himself. Michael and Lucifer are just his favourites who have the power together to do similar things. However neither of them are the primal force of creation. Michael is the one that builds and breaks, fair enough he along with Lucifer can build a multiverse however they are not the primal force of creation ok?

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Yes Michael, in truth, didnt create all of reality all by himself. But because of your overbearing fanboyishness with Phoenix, you completely missed the point(which isnt a surprised btw). My point is, its not a fact that the term "Primal Force of Creation" means that "it creates everything". Thats why I brought Sandalphon's comments. According to him Michael is the one who builds and breaks, only him(which would mean that Michael is THE Primal Force of Creation in DC). But in reality he's not the one true creator of the Multiverse because he needs Lucifer, right? So going by that, How can you say that the meaning of Primal Force of Creation is creating everything, when the example I gave above proves otherwise. Marvel only states that Jean is Primal Force of Creation this, Primal Force of Creation that. They never stated that it means creating everything. """"""""""""""""""""""""



Ive just explained to you more fully what the primal force of creation is, Michael or Lucifer are neither, they are powerful beings who can emulate some of the forces feats together however they are not the source or origin from which all life, all reality of the proper multiverse came from.






"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Again, it proves that you understanding of thing is messy. The Presence doesnt need to empower Michael or Lucifer to be one with anything. Theyre TRULY capable of doing it on theyre own. Again, Lucifer being one with his Multiverse is proof enough.

The only reason why The Presence is one with everything in DC and not Michael, not because Michael doesnt have the power to be one with eveything, but because The Presence overrules it.
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You still have yet to prove Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse so you cant really say that. The prseence is one with everything in Dc because he/it retains the role of primal force of creation in DC he hasnt made an entity to fulfill that job description as TOAA has in Marvel. Michael even if he could become one with the presences multiverse isnt really saying much when under his own power he cant create a multiverse. You need to prove Michael can even do that in the first place and even if he did it doeant change anything, he or Lucifer arent the primal force of creation and individually they cant create a multiverse.



"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""What the hell? If the US INVITED every people in the world, then yes they are as grand and important than every other country because theyre CONFIDENT enough to accomodate all them. I mean they should be confident enough to actually INVITE them.

Which exactly is the case for Lucifer. He invited ALL of the beings from a PROPER Multiverse into his own Multiverse if they dont like Presence's rule. That alone means that Lucifer's Multiverse can accomodate every living being that came from a PROPER Multiverse. You couldnt get any more grander or important than that. Why cant you see that?

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The bigger,grander, more complex something is, the harder it is to form, the more energy it takes to make. My example with the U.S was to show that even though the U.S probably has the room to accommodate the rest of the worlds population, that doesnt mean the U.S is as big, or as complex a land mass, or as powerful as the rest of the worlds nations combined into one. Until you have proof a scan for example that says something like, lucifer created a multiverse just as big, or bigger than the presences one, then you have lost on that point.Lets just move on Synchy.







Right Synchro im going to post your quote again and im going to break it down for you as much as i can. Ive studied English literature to a high level you obviously havent from your comments. There is no evidence at all supporting what you claim the following quote means:





"""""""""""""""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""""""




The quote says the LIGHTBRINGER turns on NEW MINTED WINGS. Ok? Lightbringer is another name for Lucifer that comes from the time when jesus was explaining how God took away Lucifers wings and cast him out of heaven with a blazing flash. Jesus says that Lucifer fell like lightning hence the term lightbringer. Lightbringer is used cleverly here as its not only referring to that incident but also how Lucifer is in the process of creating a star and so bringing light. As for the new minted wings, to mint something is to form something newly. This is linking back to Lucifer having his wings taken by God when he was cast out, well now this quote is saying he's turning on his newly formed wings. Wings that he's got since that incident. (Whether or not that biblical event occurred in the Dc comic is irrelevant, the writer is merely acknowledging the history behind the Lucifer character) The quote then goes on to say that he is eneacting his name. Enacting something is to act it out. Lucifers name means both Morning star and also light bringer. So to act out his name would be to bring light. Lucifer is at the time creating suns. Ther really is no debating this. Its simple enough if youve studied english literature.





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*sigh* dissapointing. Ok here's the defini....... You know what Ill just quote someone who is omnipotent in our real world about the meaning of "The Alpha and The Omega"

Refer in the Bible, Revelation 1:4-8 :

Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

So shall it be! Amen.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "WHO IS, and WHO WAS, and WHO IS TO COME, the Almighty."

NUFF SAID!!!!!!!
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All that means in reference to Lucifer or Michael is that theyre constants. That they were there in the beginning and that they will be there in the end. Same with Phoenix. However we've now already established that they re NOT the primal force of creation. This changes nothing. All you've done is flesh out my previous explanation.









""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Yeah, right. All thoughout our argument the only reason that you gave as to why Phoenix is above the brothers is that Phoenix created everything including concepts while Lucifer and Michael didnt create everything on their own, thats it.

Youve NEVER provided any more reasons as to why Phoenix is above them. Only that one. Youve never dealt with any of the feats that Ive posted.

As for me, I have yet to even bring up another of Lucifer's greatest weapons. His Mind. And also how versatile Lucifer is because he's magic based and Phoenix isnt. Im just warming up dude, if you didnt know.

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What Phoenix has above the brothers individually is that it created exsitence singlehandedly whereas they require each other. It is now quie clear that the brothers arent the primal force of creation in DC as Phoenix is in Marvel, they are merely incredibly powerful beings who together have the power to create a multiverse, however they are not the origin of everything beyond heaven or in marvels case of creation beyond the White hot room. Phoenix is also one with all of creation, she is the heart and soul of it all which is why she is referred to as tipeherth(look it up) her essence permeates it all and she has power over it all. Over the proper multiverse not a side creation.

Sex is the primal force of creation!!!
BWAHWHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

Sorry had to get that out of my system, I was going to crack.

Originally posted by demigawd
I live to serve.

You do know GS is a guy Demi?

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

Yes, I know. I wasn't being flirtacious, lol.

Originally posted by demigawd
Yes, I know. I wasn't being flirtacious, lol.

hey it wouldn't make you a bad person

Whatever flaots you boat, I don't judge

Keep the faith

Stay tolerant

lol, we still love you dem

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
lol, we still love you dem

shit i want to join in but fuXk it

what's going on?

<<shit i want to join in but fuXk it
what's going on?>>

HAHHAHAHAH!!